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- [00:00]
Camille Moore
Neela Mahuja is a Toronto based influencer and she publicly did this article breaking up with the brand because she is sick of the way that the brand is treating her.
- [00:09]
Philip
There are people in the world that want to tell you how to think. Yeah, they have an interest. And whenever somebody pretends to be doing something for the good of society, often there's a self interest behind it. We're seeing more and more things that are really well done, well executed in terms of artistry, but not memorable because there's not a story that's memorable.
- [00:26]
Camille Moore
Almost all of the content that I've been seeing them put out is well done but not memorable. Marty supreme is an example of brands being able to tap into the orange, right? Like they can showcase or a part of the cultural moment by tapping into orange. That can be more broad.
- [00:39]
Philip
It's an interesting take is monoculture is not just thinking of the culture of your client as just their relationship with your product. It's your client's relationship with a bunch of products that creates an interesting world.
- [00:51]
Camille Moore
And that, Pat McGrath is an example of if you don't have speed to market, if you can't act fast, if you can't move fast, when you have a viral moment, that's not what's going to save you. Apple reportedly is cutting production of its Vision Pro headset after poor sales.
- [01:10]
Philip
You're kind of entertained by the novelty, but it doesn't bring you into the world.
- [01:14]
Camille Moore
It kind of annoys me that Equinox can just do this like repulsive AI campaign that is completely off brand so that people like us talk about them and they get this earned media value hit and like where this is just gonna go this year of people just want to be able to measure like being talked about. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Happy new year everybody. I hope you guys had an awesome holiday, some downtime to focus on how you're going to crush your brand this year ahead.
- [01:52]
Philip
2026 will be a very important year to businesses and people alike.
- [01:57]
Camille Moore
I agree. And there's just so much to to look forward to, whether it's live shopping, whether it's in person's activations, world building. I think we're going to see a lot of change this year for where the end of the year wrapped up.
- [02:13]
Philip
With branding and marketing and we're going to see now we're going to see some of the follow on effects of AI being implemented. So it was implemented. It's now going to start hitting the, in the the industry. Stay tuned to the end. I'm going to give some behavioral psychology insights into New Year's resolutions, how to influence the mind and as always, like share, follow and spread the world word on the number one branding podcast in the world. Spread the word. Support us.
- [02:41]
Camille Moore
I can't wait for you guys to see the visual of Philip. He is full blown Canadian right now. Like his beard is so thick. It is so cold here. He is so, so suited for the weather. You're like an animal that adapts.
- [02:51]
Philip
Yes. But I'm getting a trim after the podcast because we're going to la, so I gotta lie.
- [02:55]
Camille Moore
True that and I also, before we jump in, we've had so many awesome people reach out saying how excited they are about an in person event in la. That makes me so happy. I do think that we're pushing back the date which we got a little gun. What is the. What is the gun? No gun. Shy. But what's the.
- [03:16]
Philip
The trepidicious.
- [03:17]
Camille Moore
We got too excited.
- [03:18]
Philip
Oh.
- [03:19]
Camille Moore
Anyways, I could have said that in basic English.
- [03:22]
Philip
Well, just too many, too many opportunities came up between.
- [03:24]
Camille Moore
Well, that, that's the only. That's the problem is don't hold it against me, guys. We have so much travel between now and the end of Feb that to do it the first week of March would have just been impossible from a marketing and messaging standpoint. I think that's the biggest thing that I want to just like be real about is that it is really hard to show up and to communicate clearly like online. And that's one thing for what. For how influencers do it every day. Like it is exhausting in a full time job and it's, it's such a massive piece from like you have to communicate, you know, like. And it's so hard to plan out how to communicate, especially with us launching the planner. And have we talked about on the podcast that I'm speaking at Harvard in a few weeks?
- [04:02]
Philip
I don't know if we spoke about it, but you will be teaching Harvard Business School. I am branding, which is very cool.
- [04:08]
Camille Moore
It's a really, it's a, it's a big deal. So we've got.
- [04:10]
Philip
Not open to the public. Some people have asked that come, but we will, I think. Are we filming it?
- [04:14]
Camille Moore
They are filming it.
- [04:15]
Philip
They are filming it.
- [04:15]
Camille Moore
They're filming. They've got really strict filming. They, they apparently they didn't even let Kim Kardashian film Keeping up with the Kardashians. When she went and spoke at the school. That's what the. The organizer was telling me is that they're so strict about it that they didn't even make exceptions for that. Which would have been interesting because I, at Harvard is brandas. Of course, they reach out when their brand's on the decline. You know, just. Well, I guess move on to our first topic.
- [04:43]
Philip
Yeah.
- [04:44]
Camille Moore
So I want to kick this off in talking about Neelam Ahuja.
- [04:49]
Philip
Oh, we're going there.
- [04:50]
Camille Moore
I think we're just gonna start off strong. We've let people wait a week. Like, let's just get into it so.
- [04:55]
Philip
I can show you the body shots that I took when I went back and read the comments.
- [04:59]
Camille Moore
Oh, my God. Well, let me just do a quick preamble. I think most of you will know, but it's just worth it for the sake of all the. All the ears. So Neela Mahuja is a Toronto based influencer, which is funny because we're from Toronto and she had a substack article that went really viral online. And the entire article was basically her breaking up with the row. That's what it was titled. And it's interesting because Neela Mahuja is this. She's an influencer, but she's also a like a flower, full price paying client. So she kind of operates in this weird space of she's not being gifted these products, she's purchasing it with her own money. And she publicly did this article breaking up with the brand because she is sick of the way that the brand is. Is treating her. And this letter went viral. We did a video on it. Philip hilariously called it a parasitical relationship and the Internet hates him. And coming after that video, that did really well from like a View standpoint, very polarizing. Got a lot of comments on both sides. And the whole premise is that this article that she wrote, there's a portion of it that was free and then like the rest of it, where apparently, like the details got juicier. It was behind her paywall. And so she felt that there was only a part of the story that she was kind of being ripped apart for. So she went and did a YouTube video on the topic. And the idea in the YouTube video is that she is finally giving her side because people like us didn't reach out to her for comment. So we didn't do proper journalism. And for this reason, her side of the story is in public because it was behind a gated paywall, which she got some criticism for. And we watched the video. And I think that what I want to be known for is I don't give an F. Like, I'm going to be bold and come out with how we think and what we need to say. But we're also the kinds of people that want our opinions to be changed. And it's hard in a space where you're in a breaking news environment. Like, our job is to break the news, and opinions change with time. Right. When more information comes out. And maybe I don't. I'm not speaking for you because I think that we're gonna have a really interesting discussion on it. But that's kind of the preamble for getting into this. One of the favorite quotes that you taught me is you're like, the. The number one sign of someone that has true intelligence is the ability for them to change their mind. I think that's the most powerful position to have, especially if you're in a place of projecting your opinion outwardly and publicly is like, to be able to change it. But then while you're pulling up that quote, what's kind of interesting is at the same time as this has been happening with kind of Neela and bringing this YouTube video out, Brian Yambo, a really famous. Probably one of the most famous fashion critics is what I would call him. His handle is called Brian Boy. On Instagram, he was named a fashion villain of the year by Lauren Sherman at Puck Publication. And it's doing a whole swipe through on it today, talking about how, like, fashion is killing this relationship with its customer. Because it's so fascinating that Brian is considered the fashion villain of the year because he publicly gives his opinion on products that he is buying at full price. And it's such a complicated, larger conversation that I want to have about this, where these influential people, like, not influencers, in the sake of, like, they're just being like, they're prostituting for brands because they're getting paid. And you don't know what their true opinion is. But these people who are real consumers of the industry of the craft, them buying $16,000 jackets, they have the right, when it's their own dollars, to be able to say Chanel is living up to its fantasy that they can charge $16,000 for or they're not holding that, that kind of. That. That deal of the bargain. And fashion is not happy about it because they wanted to own direct access to the customer for decades, and now they can with social media, but they want to control the opinion.
- [08:54]
Philip
Yeah, I think for 20, 26, like, if people want to grow, whatever industry you're in, you should pledge to be open to changing your mind. Because for the last four or five years, everybody has been certain about everything. And you can't grow unless. And that quote that I used to like was, I hold strong convictions, but they change with the evidence. And you have to ask yourself how many times your opinion has changed based on new evidence that came from outside of your bubble for that individual. Like, there are people in the world that want to tell you how to think.
- [09:23]
Camille Moore
Yeah.
- [09:24]
Philip
They have an interest. And whenever somebody pretends to be doing something for the good of society, often there's a self interest behind it.
- [09:30]
Camille Moore
Yeah.
- [09:30]
Philip
That's like feeding their own ego, their own identity. And when people tell you how to think and what you can say, it's usually a form of control, not curiosity. And what we need is more curiosity in the world. And. But to get back to your point on the row, you know, I found her response on YouTube just gave me way more ammo to launch on a few more probably controversial points, unpopular opinions.
- [09:55]
Camille Moore
Well, it's interesting because I want to get into that. I want to talk about her specifically because I think in her doing the video, she deserves, you know, another piece to it. Because a lot of what we were talking on was based off of kind of the zeitgeist access. And I. We didn't purchase the. The behind the paywall. We were just talking about, you know, where are we. Where is this kind of, this, this relationship, this parasocial relationship that's going with brands like to leverage that year? Word of the year is it. It's such an interesting phenomenon that these brands, they wanted to bypass the magazines, the pr, like, the celebrity seating. Like, they wanted to go direct to the consumer, but they also, they don't want the consumer to have a voice. And it's so. It's so fascinating to kind of have a conversation about. And like, where can you leverage that better as a brand? Because outside of luxury fashion, when you look at brands like Summer Fridays or Skims or A Road or all the brands that we talk about often, you know, week over week, the reason why we talk so much about them is because they're not too good to build community. Like, they're not too good to have this, like, tribe and be focused on authenticity. But luxury is so fickle and it's built by, like, different rules that it complicates kind of where social is going and what Brian talks about in his response to being called fashion villain of the year. He's like, before fashion had all the power. Right. Like, they could, like, you didn't know what was in their archives. You didn't know like at the ability of your fingertips to be like, what came out in 2016. Where are they recycling? What do we think of this new creative director? Like, you couldn't. Screenshot, snapshot, go on. The RealReal, like luxury is down 25% and brands like the RealReal and other secondhand brands are up because you no longer have to pay full fare because you don't have to like what they came out with this season. You can support them but by going to like an archival piece. And these, these voices are, are so powerful in how people are shaping and what, and what brands are becoming cool. Which leads to the ne point because she was a part of making the row cool.
- [12:02]
Philip
I don't think she had anything to do with making the row cool. I think she amplified the row on a channel that was self serving. And when you say that she bought at full price. Well, there's a business model in the end, you know, because in the end, I don't think she's disclosing if she made more money from her subscription and her affiliate links than what she paid. But she didn't.
- [12:21]
Camille Moore
There's no way.
- [12:21]
Philip
Well, one never knows. But it's hard to feel sorry for somebody who's flying to Paris so that she can go for an appointment to buy full priced, most expensive stuff in the world and then says, I've always struggled with being a minority and doing it. Like, you know, there's this kind of evoking, there's this everything about that video, if we just jump right to it. But I want to talk to the. About the role. If you look at it from a rhetorical tempo, everything about the video she did is to set up that she's an immoral high ground to precondition the dialogue and then show why everything she did was entitled. And it's a very manipulative type of video, which is normal because everybody is trying to advance their own interests. But she's trying to evoke sympathy, make the role the villain. And I don't actually see the role as the villain. I see them as a very impressive company that has the courage to do things a little different. So when everybody is going in one direction, they're deciding to go in another. Because as you said, power used to be in the fashion houses. No, Power was moving to the influencers.
- [13:20]
Camille Moore
Yeah.
- [13:21]
Philip
And to the people who are doing it. And so it takes a degree of courage to be able to say, I don't need you anymore. Yeah, right. And that. And. But what that does from a psychology perspective is actually make your brand seem more valuable. Because when you can say no to these people that are that popular, it shows that you're exclusive, you know, And I think they want to focus the role, wanted to focus on customers and clients, not cater to influencers. And it was a power move. And they won the power move.
- [13:49]
Camille Moore
I think it's really interesting. And I've gone. I've gone back and forth myself on the video because on one hand, when I, when I first consumed it, I was like, wow, this is really interesting that the brand kind of grew with her. Like, she was kind of quick to see that this was going to be something and like, adopted the brand and really was a part of communicating its unique, like, selling propositions. Right. And. And that's a piece where I do want to give her credit is that she would take the to when she really didn't have an audience to do 10 minutes, like on the handles and, like, explain why this brand was really doing something that was special and unique. And they had. They had a symbiotic relationship because the brand was initially very thankful that they were able to scale and grow because of voices like hers that helped amplify the message. That was the first part of our video that, like, you don't know that.
- [14:48]
Philip
The brand didn't say that.
- [14:49]
Camille Moore
Well, the brand said it through. I believe that in the beginning when she would do a video and they would say a direct increase of people coming in, purchasing the bag, because back then they didn't have scarcity like on the Margot bags. Like, they were easy to get in their storefronts. This is going back to, like 2006. Like, this is a long time, right, that this relationship has been building. But to your point, where it became conflicting for me is she was playing both sides. So what's interesting about the row is that they don't have any influencers. They do no influencer gifting. They don't support the influencer community. They do not want to use your words, this parasitic relationship of, like, influencers being this, like, megaphone for their brand. And what's complicated is that Neelam was a client, a very important client, because she would spend so much money at the brand and she'd be leveraging one second.
- [15:42]
Philip
You don't know that she was a very important client. You're not like, we don't know what Ro said. She was just somebody who spent money and Then made videos about it and elevated her skills.
- [15:54]
Camille Moore
Okay, so we can't, we can't verify but we can assume that she was spending, to use her words, they offered her private shopping appointments and like you tend to be spending significant funds from her picture.
- [16:05]
Philip
I think she did a great job of curating a platform to showcase role. Like very stylish, very elegant like and was using.
- [16:13]
Camille Moore
She's super stylish, I think. But let me just finish that point. Cause I think that's interesting for people to understand where you're coming from. So what's interesting is she would be leveraging access that you get as a very important client. But she would leverage those moments so that she can be an influencer. So what she would do is she would buy the products from the Row and then she would link them later to a mytheresa or to another site that paid affiliate revenue and affiliate income when the Row doesn't pay affiliate income because the Row doesn't pay an influencer. So she'd be buying the products directly from the Row because of access that she would get from the Row and then she would link it to another retailer to get affiliate commission to make, to basically make money off of the access that she received. So that's where this becomes complicated because that's where it's against the brand.
- [17:05]
Philip
So you're telling me that you don't think that those affiliate links can, could have made more money than what she spent? Because what she did was get access to early releases with these private things and then people wanted to see them.
- [17:17]
Camille Moore
Who couldn't see she obviously made money. Like she talks about that this is like how she could fund her business. But I don't think it's the same thing with, with the Brian boy. They have reserve income that allows them to spend at a price point that, that like there's. And that's kind of the problem with this industry is that you need to have access to money to play the game. Like it's not. Nobody can just like get into high fashion and like post doing links.
- [17:42]
Philip
What I wanted to clarify because reading the comments were. Was quite enjoyable. Yeah, people were, there were supporters, but then there were people who just didn't like. So just going back to when people attack your words without the context, that's an element of control. So when I said this is a parasitic relationship that came from the word parasocial. When I'm speaking, I'm not always, and this is one of my faults, I'm not always just speaking about the individual because I Often kind of take that theme and talk about, these are parasocial relationships where, you know, when somebody kind of inserts themselves into your life and then makes sense demands on you, and you didn't really ask them to do it, but they're just there all the time. And at some point you have to say, hey, look, you know, you're cramping my style. That's what was happening on a big scale. Just because she was. She had a lot of money and was doing things at a high end. To me, it was a parasitic relationship that the brand has every right to say, hey, thanks, back off. Like, this is not where we want to go. And you're inserting yourself because you're spending money. It's like somebody can insert themselves in your life by just spending money buying or going in there, but you don't necessarily have to accommodate them.
- [18:42]
Camille Moore
Well, that's why it's just such an interesting alternative perspective to consider is that if you are the brand and you're allowing people to get direct access to get, like, to be able to buy products, and then they're using that to generate revenue or income. Like, another thing she did that they were unhappy with is she styled an outfit with the row shoes and. And then she linked, like, a cheap pair of, like, Jeffrey Campbell's to like to the look. And the brand was not happy about that because the brand. The brand's idea is don't support the dupes that are ripping off our styles. Like, why would you give. And if you think in terms of, like, art, why would you let someone that's, like, ripping it off and giving you a print when, like, I'm making the clear piece of art? And. But from her perspective, it's complicated because when you want to scale as being an influencer, the majority, you can't get into big numbers and expect people to be able to buy $900 flip flops that look like the free ones they give you at the spa. You know, like, it's. It's not.
- [19:41]
Philip
You just got kicked off Rose VIP lists.
- [19:44]
Camille Moore
Honestly, I'm not on the Rosa, like, not. I'm on the Rosa not important list, because I don't. I don't spend. I don't. I don't buy. Buy brands at that level. But I think that's where it's complicated is when you consider brands at that level. Like, they don't. They charge a lot of money, but their margins aren't what you expect because they have to do things like runways and they, they. They order things at the highest level. And then they have to deal with waste because, like. And I mean, they have obviously their sales, but there's just there. It's more complicated than just looking at like a summer Fridays and how they treat their client. Like there is. You have to do things that are unlikable in order to. To drive a demand for Price point and have a coolness to the brand that people at that level aspire to.
- [20:22]
Philip
I didn't know, like, I'm impressed with the Olsen twins.
- [20:26]
Camille Moore
Like, super, right? Like that they are crushing.
- [20:29]
Philip
That company is doing something very interesting. And on our journey to a brand, to a great brand. Yeah, I think they're on that journey. And if you're going to become great at something, you're always going to piss people off.
- [20:41]
Camille Moore
True, dad.
- [20:41]
Philip
That's what we talk about. And so. But people will always be saying, you can't piss me off. I'm entitled to your forever indulgence because I did. No, if you want to go somewhere, it means sometimes you're going to piss people off. And I actually see the role as kind of like a future Chanel. In the direction that they're going, they're really showing courage to stay true to some things that they like. And they're not going to get diverted off their path because somebody feels entitled to special treatment, like the invitations to the VIP appointments. That's theirs to give. And if they don't want to give it to you, they don't have to anymore. And I think her saying that she's breaking up with them, but she's not actually breaking up with them. She said, I'm just going to buy it off of other sites, still get some affiliate and still talk about it like it was just somebody who pretended like they broke up with their spouse who broke up with them.
- [21:29]
Camille Moore
I mean, like, you're not wrong. I agree with you. When I think of the Row, the Row, to me is a brand that you're almost shocked and impressed that it has celebrity affiliation because really so few, if ever, has done as good of a job as Mary Kate and Ashley do compared to, like, they were. They, you know, they almost had that Paris Hilton, like, brand right where they were kind of American, like Blockbuster famous. To your point, they didn't have credibility in that space and they've done such a good job. And when I was listening to the video, I had the same feelings of they're trying to build a great brand. They're not trying to chase current cultural relevance. And I have to say that I do respect that. I Also, though, do feel that Neelam has the right to tell her community why her tone and approach is changing. And the way that I wanted to wrap up this segment is I don't want to make this about her, but I do think it's interesting where this relationship between fashion and this social media influencer is going, because it's. There's this codependence on the influencer side. But the fashion brands are approaching this in an interesting way, which I think is a more larger conversation to have with where branding is going.
- [22:49]
Philip
She said in the video that the rep in Paris said, what are you, a client or an influencer? And if you think about it, it's actually a very powerful thing. It's like, we want clients, not influencers. And what happens is some of these people who have a lot of money and they give themselves status and they say, I'm entitled to indulgence, you know what I mean? And be sensitive about my feelings, and I'm spending money. Like, essentially what they're saying is, we don't want you as an influencer and we don't need you as an influencer. We want you as a client first. But if you're getting out there and being an influencer and asking to be a client. She didn't like that. They were saying, hey, look, like, if you're going to be doing that, don't, don't do that. And she didn't like that. Like, it's, it's an. There's this entitlement in the world. And so she's doing a video to showcase where she's going. And I wish her the best she got to find another brand. But I am giving props to the row for showing some courage and, you know, you have to be able to stand up to entitled people who demand your time when you don't want to give it to them.
- [23:47]
Camille Moore
I don't think she was demanding. I think that she was operating in a realm that people.
- [23:53]
Philip
She's like, I flew to Paris because I was offered a private viewing, and then when I got there, they didn't give me enough time. And I wouldn't have flew there if I knew I was only going to get that much time. And they were rude to me. And what people are supposed to feel sorry for her like that? She's like, it's. It's an entitledness.
- [24:07]
Camille Moore
Yeah. Like, I didn't relate as much to the, you know, it wasn't like she was like, she flew there for, you.
- [24:13]
Philip
Know, that's what she said. She said, I Wouldn't have flown there if I, if I knew I was only going to get that amount of time.
- [24:17]
Camille Moore
Look, I, that. Don't disagree. Not going to touch it. I think though, overall, when I look at the situation, it's that it is. I'm not minimizing the work that you have to do to be a tastemaker, influencer, creator, but it's an enjoyable. If you love fashion and you love to spend money to weigh in the. It's, it's an enjoyable career if you have, if you like.
- [24:43]
Philip
No, it's amazing career. But don't get butthurt if, if they don't want to go down the path with you.
- [24:47]
Camille Moore
I know, but it's just the only piece that's complicated is like why the f would you do all of those pieces unless you can make a dollar off of Link? You know, I mean, like there, it's, it's. I don't think it's fair, it's fair to expect that people who are putting their time into creating these outfits and communicating and talking about it also can't make a dollar. Like I, I do think that this is a. We're complicating this relationship in a way that.
- [25:11]
Philip
But their policy was they don't have affiliates. So it's like, I'm doing this. You need to do this for me. I should be making. It's like, no, you don't. I'm the brand. We don't pay affiliates.
- [25:19]
Camille Moore
I'm not saying that the ROW needs to, needs to adjust. I respect what the ROW is doing. I just think it's complicated.
- [25:24]
Philip
But the world isn't about fairness. The world is a universe in which everybody is trying to steal each other's lunch. And if you get destroyed or go bankrupt, nobody will care in six months. So every brand has to be vigorous about what they're going to do to go forward. And if you stop to entertain every complaint, you're going to die.
- [25:44]
Camille Moore
Ultimately, I think they have the right to do it, which I agree with you. I just think it's an interesting conversation.
- [25:47]
Philip
To break down and I just want to qualify because there were some people calling me sexist because I said whining. Right? Whining is not gender specific word. There are, there's a whole, there's a whole component of men these days who have got a master's degree in whining. When I say whining, it means you're complaining. You're not getting what you think you're entitled to. It wasn't it. It's not sexist. And when people try to make it sexist, they want to restrict the dialogue to stay within what they think is right.
- [26:11]
Camille Moore
Well, I would say that's probably the biggest thing that. That. That holds people back from creating conversation is that you can't criticize without being seen through the lens of how they want to. To see you and how they think the world should be seen. And by creating dialogue and having a conversation, a lot of people are threatened by that, especially when a man enters the conversation, which, like, enough. Like, let's just have a conversation and get different perspectives. Like, that's how we grow. Like, we. You don't have to agree with you or like you. But I think at the end of the day, it's, we need to have dialogue. We need to have conversations. Well, let's move into. I think it's a perfect segue into the next concept of well done but unrememberable.
- [26:54]
Philip
Yeah, we were having a good conversation on this over the holidays about what kind of started. I think I was talking about Shawshank Redemption and how the name played a role in the branding of that movie in the box office.
- [27:07]
Camille Moore
Yeah, that was the exact story. You watched a video, and Shawshank Redemption was a total bust because no one could remember the name.
- [27:16]
Philip
There's an amazing book by Stephen King. He did four short stories, and out of it came Stand By Me, the Long Walk, Running man, and Shawshank Redemption. Those four short stories all came. And Shawshank Redemption was originally called Rita Hayworth by Stephen King in the book because there was a poster in this prison. And the movie was beautifully done. It's one of the best movies ever made.
- [27:38]
Camille Moore
It's a great movie.
- [27:39]
Philip
It came out at a bad time because when it was released, Forrest Gump had come out and Pulp Fiction had come up. So back then, they actually made good movies. Not like today.
- [27:47]
Camille Moore
Can you imagine, like, that year of the Oscars, it was Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption, and Forrest Gump. As, like. Like, Jeez.
- [27:57]
Philip
As Oscar nominations. We're robbed today as Oscar nominations for best Picture. But we had seen a movie years ago shaped like Water, which won an Oscar, was filmed in Toronto.
- [28:08]
Camille Moore
Was it filmed in Toronto?
- [28:09]
Philip
Yeah, it was film Toronto. And. But then we couldn't remember what the movie was about. Right. And it's done by Guillermo del Toro, who. I love his work. Like, he's a beautiful artist.
- [28:19]
Camille Moore
We gotta finish Frankenstein. We gotta finish that.
- [28:21]
Philip
I ended up doing. It was. It was well done.
- [28:22]
Camille Moore
Oh, you finished it, you jerk.
- [28:24]
Philip
Shaped like water, though. We Couldn't remember what it was about other than there was like some creature. And then we discussed that it was well done but not memorable. Whereas the other three movies, you can remember what the plot was about.
- [28:35]
Camille Moore
Right?
- [28:35]
Philip
And it's totally. It's relevant in marketing and advertising and branding is that we're seeing more and more things that are really well done, well executed in terms of art, artistry, but not memorable because there's not a story that's memorable.
- [28:49]
Camille Moore
Honestly, to me, this is like the theme of the year or the theme of the moment. Because after we had that conversation of well done unmemorable, to me it's just. It is the biggest issue that is plaguing the industry at present is that it's with AI, with updated lenses, with cgi. The barrier to do things very well is now not complicated. It's that lacking the so what the why and the story is we just have an abundance of well done. And since having that conversation every time I've gone on socials, obviously I follow a ton of brands and a ton of founders. Almost all of the content that I've been seeing them put out is well done but not memorable because you can get these great templates on capcut and you can like everyone can do the same trending audio and do the like the end of the year recap or do like a cool launch post for a new product. But now there's no differentiation between it because the standard is that it's easy to be good.
- [29:51]
Philip
I was telling this to one of the clients that advise who has like a almost billion dollar brand about how frustrated he was, is that his teams, they won't say that to them. And so like he needs to talk to somebody who will go look that a garbage idea. Like. And so you get this. Well done but not memorable because the system is just, especially in big corporations, it's systematized to produce things that are reaffirming. And everywhere along the line nobody has the courage to say that's wrong, that's not good, we're not doing anything interesting. And so like when they came up with the name Shawshank Redemption or Hudsucker, remember that movie Hudsucker Proxy? Right.
- [30:26]
Camille Moore
I was gonna talk about. You read my mind.
- [30:27]
Philip
These are names that had problems. Shawshank Redemption, when you think of it, if you're a listener, whatever, why was that a problem? Well, people didn't know what Shawshank was and Redemption was complicated and people were screwing up the names. The movie became famous because it was just so good. But if it had been branded properly, in that kind of symphony of proper branding, it could have been one of the highest grossing movies ever.
- [30:49]
Camille Moore
Yeah.
- [30:49]
Philip
I think it should have just been called Shawshank. Like, it might have been easier if they wanted to do it, or Rita, you know, or Rita Hairwith. But Morgan Freeman was upset with the name from the beginning. He was like, this name doesn't make sense. Nobody will remember it. The story was called Rita. We should just call it something simple and memorable. And it's unfortunate the movie's not better known for how amazing it was.
- [31:10]
Camille Moore
You're obviously correct, right? Like, the name. The name wasn't good enough. Because I remember the first time someone suggested watching it and then watching it, the name didn't make sense. I wasn't. I didn't necessarily want to hit play because, like, I couldn't make a simple link. And then after we watched the whole movie, I was like, why is it called? You know, I mean, like, I just. It didn't. I agree with you. Like, it didn't. It took too many mental calories, which often doesn't result in the best outcome for whatever you're launching. However, when I do think about it, it is a cool, like, if you know, you know, right. Where there's something. There's something to the name that makes you feel elevated, more cultured, that's different than the Hudsucker proxy. Like, the Hudsucker proxy is hard to say. Whereas the Shawshank Redemption. It's not that. It's. I agree with you. I just. To me, there's something that is. That is iconic to. But overall, you're not wrong. The. When I think about this whole idea of well done, unmemorable, and where I think the industry needs to go, because I've been thinking quite deeply about it over the past week, is that there's currently a gap in how brands are thinking about what they need to do to get ahead. Right. Like, they think in terms of outcomes. Like, I need to go viral or I need more views on my posts.
- [32:24]
Philip
Or this many pieces of content.
- [32:26]
Camille Moore
Yeah. Or, you know, should I be on TikTok? And I find that the outreach that we get across the board is constantly focused on outcome opposed to strategy. Right. Like, I want to come to you for an isolated idea, think about all of the data points, get under the hood, look at my brand and give me an opportunity that you can strategize on and potentially execute. And because business owners are thinking in terms of checking the box on having a Social agency and an ad agency and an SEO agency. They're constantly looking to fill those gaps with people who sell pencils. And to me, that's what's missing from a military perspective.
- [33:10]
Philip
The analogy I would give you is the armies that the militaries that don't perform operate in silos. So you have the tanks, you have the infantry, you have the air force, you have the navy, they all have their own experts who control them. When the top militaries in the world do something called combined arms operation, where you have to have somebody who talented enough at the top to be able to coordinate airstrikes, resupply from water, armored, flanking, infantry on the front, demolitions, electronics, intel, that is how you get the mission done. That combined arms operation. Right. It's not just one expert in one field of podcasts killing it on their ads. One field of this. And so what we're seeing in the industry when we were talking about is that people are establishing their power bases by becoming experts in these one areas. Right. But what you need is that level of thinking to be able to do combined arms brand strategy.
- [34:10]
Camille Moore
Totally agree, totally agree.
- [34:12]
Philip
Military tidbit for our listeners out there.
- [34:15]
Camille Moore
That's why we keep you around. No, that's exactly it. And it to me, that is the best way to kind of wrap up that segment is how can you go into this year thinking in terms of combined arms operation and avoiding the well done unmemorable. Because with where AI is going, it's not about just dropping the, you know, we're dropping this new thing post. It's like, what are you doing that's making everything that you're doing more memorable? And I actually think it's in some ways a pull away from that Gary Vee message because now it's becoming so easy to develop so many creatives. It's now because before it was harder, right? Like in order to win, you had to put out so much in order to find one that's going to like hit or make do the message. But now, especially with how much I'm seeing within brands, like in founders, they're just, they're getting these, these AI avatars and they can put out 10 videos a day. And it's just getting to the point where there was a time if Everybody.
- [35:16]
Philip
Can have 10 AI agents putting out 10, like it's going to be too much. And so the point is well done but not memorable. You have to shift the focus memorable.
- [35:25]
Camille Moore
And this is memorable.
- [35:27]
Philip
It doesn't have to even be well done because often people Want less curated because it looks more real, more authentic. True, but you need creative intellectual capability to make memorable creative. It's not just technical ability. And that's where the gap is in the system.
- [35:42]
Camille Moore
Well, it's interesting for us to move into the next one which I saw this headline. The article wasn't particularly interesting, but the headline was that like Marty supreme how it's killing the box office and it did like record numbers over the week it's been open and how it's, you know, is it indicating that we've found a way to go back to monoculture? And I've been seeing a ton of content that talks about the reason why we're seeing a change in how successful drops are or things are within marketing and branding is because we've lost monoculture. Right. With social media and the algorithm, there's these niche communities, niche groups where things are trending specific to your shared values. Opposed to this idea that there's just, it's target market demographics. You can now no longer just get 18 to 22 year olds to all wear the same outfit. Right. Like there's just, there's, there's themes within themes within themes. And I wanted to have a conversation with you about that because I've been seeing more and more things come out about this and I'm seeing furrowed lines in your eyebrows.
- [36:52]
Philip
So I have no idea how that relates to monoculture. Monoculture is like one thing dominates everything. Yeah, okay.
- [36:59]
Camille Moore
What don't you get?
- [37:00]
Philip
How does Marty supreme contribute to moniculture? It's a successful movie.
- [37:04]
Camille Moore
What's happening right now? And I would say the content that I'm seeing is this idea that we now officially work against the idea of monoculture. So it's hard for things to like break out because groups of people no longer subscribe to going inducement. What you're saying is completely simple and makes sense. I'm not saying that you're right. It's stupid to say people going to one movie is the signal of monoculture's return. My point is, is that it's interesting that that's something that is a headline for a major publication because of how much dialogue there is surrounding lack of monoculture.
- [37:43]
Philip
See, it's like to me in marketing branding, monoculture is when you have one channel. Like you're all of your culture of your brand is on one channel and it brings risk because if, if you're not diversified or monoculture is like one audience avatar only. So it's just monoculture would of your brand would be you're only speaking to this demographic.
- [38:02]
Camille Moore
Culture is, has. Is monopolized. Right. Like, there's just one idea. So the idea is like, when Go Go boots were in, everybody wore Go Go boots. Like, it wasn't like there was a. It's not like some people were wearing the New Balance trend and some are wearing the row boots and some were wearing like the onus tigers.
- [38:20]
Philip
Everybody's wearing on clothes.
- [38:21]
Camille Moore
No, they're not on clothes.
- [38:23]
Philip
They're pretty much everywhere.
- [38:24]
Camille Moore
No. For a shared value Persona, right. Of people that want to be comfortable, there's like, I'd never wear my on clouds to work. In fact, I try to avoid wearing on clouds, period, because I like, I'm trying to dress up more with getting out of the house. I'm wearing less leggings. And like that in and of itself is its own trend for a cause. How is it tied to monoculture? It's that monoculture has left the building. And the reason why I wanted to use this headline, what I wanted to talk about is many brand owners or business owners are thinking in terms of trends, or they want to tap into trends or they want to do things that are more target market demographic focused. The trend cycles that you need to be aware of are the ones that are dependent to your audience niche, which means that you need to really know your community and be tapped into it so that you can further contribute to your community and build that evangelism around it. So the idea is, Marty supreme is an example of brands being able to tap into the orange. Right? Like they can showcase or a part of the cultural moment by tapping into orange. And that can be more broad, what more brands are doing. And the ones that are winning are not worrying about what's big for everybody, but what's big to their community. And that's a way to get ahead for the year.
- [39:39]
Philip
Yeah, okay. But it's pretty obviously we've moved away from monoculture. Like, there's more liberty and choice options for consumers than there's ever been.
- [39:46]
Camille Moore
But I don't think people are thinking in terms of that. Like, it's obvious to you, but I don't think that many brands that they're not thinking in terms of what are their shared values, customers thinking about. For example, in the health and wellness space, in the last month, these, like, vibrating plates have blown up. So if your consumer type is all buying these vibrating plates, you should be creating content that taps into, that touches on, that makes fun of or relates with that specific product. Like, you need to be so dialed into your Customer shared values, that everything that you're doing is relational to that piece. And I, the reason I'm bringing this up is a lot of business owners that are hiring agencies are not dialed into telling them what their consumer is doing. And they're missing a massive opportunity because they're not thinking in terms of, we can't think in generalized trends. I have to be thinking in terms of what is my specific customer doing. And that's the brands that are doing the best, they're tapping into that. So when Summer Fridays does like Matcha inspired pop up, that's because their consumer is obsessed with Matcha right now. Like the brands that are doing it, the highest end do it. And it's simple, like, it's easy to analyze. But that message isn't going down to small, to smaller businesses, to brands that are doing what, tapping into their, their shared value. Audiences, niche culture.
- [41:07]
Philip
Okay. Which is the opposite of monoculture.
- [41:10]
Camille Moore
The opposite of monoculture.
- [41:11]
Philip
What I see from Marty supreme is actually very good marketing that gives people a reason to go to the theater because people don't want to go to the theater as much anymore. The movies aren't that good. They can watch them on their, their home theaters just as well. The TVs, the speakers. So it's harder to spend 150 bucks to go to a theater if there's not a draw. And I think they did a good job of marketing. Why this was something interesting by creating buzz.
- [41:38]
Camille Moore
And I just think that that's an interesting thing to be considering is that, and I don't think enough small, medium sized businesses are like the.
- [41:44]
Philip
You don't think small, medium sized businesses know they need to target their, their discrete audiences.
- [41:49]
Camille Moore
Like, no, I don't, I don't think that they're thinking in terms of. I need to attract people that, that don't make sense. Like, I don't think it's that extreme, but I don't think that they're tapping into, like, they're not obsessed with understanding what are the different accounts, what are the different things that their shared value customer is looking at so that they can tap into it.
- [42:09]
Philip
Well, that ties into my substack article this week on Moneyball and strategy. You know, and if you haven't watched Moneyball, it's an amazing strategy movie. But how most small businesses are kind of trying to mimic a Yankee approach when they're in Oakland A's budget. And I think that might be relevant to that argument.
- [42:26]
Camille Moore
Talk about it.
- [42:27]
Philip
If you watch the clip from Moneyball where Brad Pitt is Sitting there with the scouts. And the scouts are like, we need to replace the top first baseman. And they're saying, oh, this guy's good, but his wife isn't hot enough. This guy's good. He's lucky on Tuesday. And Brad Pitt is like, what does this have to do. And he essentially says, you guys are acting like you're the Yankees, which has $150 million budget. We're the Oakland A's, and we have a $40 million budget. And so you have to focus on what the problem is. You have to solve where you're at. And then that's the kind of advice that I give sometimes is how do we build a guerrilla strategy that allows you to compete against people who have bigger budgets? And so if smaller businesses, if that's the point of this, smaller businesses are kind of replicating what they think bigger businesses do as a strategy, they'll fail you.
- [43:12]
Camille Moore
Talking. I thought of an example to help articulate my point. When I think about, like, think about a medical spa. So one of the medical spas that we're friends with and we go to. I went on her page because I was writing about her in the book and I realized that kind of her last post was talking about, like, offering HRT therapy to, like, women in perimenopause and going into menopause. And like how the laws, the way that the government talks about estrogen has changed and it's no longer cancer causing. And when I look at that and I'm thinking about who she's trying to communicate to, what are the other things that that customer is listening to, watching, or doing? Well, they're probably consuming something like a Mel Robbins. You know, they're probably thinking in terms of increasing their protein count. They're probably thinking about how to focus on aging and improving their look based on what they're going through during that stage. And when I thought about all of those things, my brain instantly went into tons of different content like she could be talking about because she's in her 50s, what protein she's eating, how she counts her protein, what are hrt. Like, there's all this stuff, stuff that she's not doing that would further improve her brand awareness, help her sell more product. Because she's not only showing up to talk about estrogen loss changing, she's touching into, like, what is that consumer? What is the other content that they're consuming? So if she starts listening to the Mel Robbins podcast, she should share on her story. This is a great episode. Here's the link if you want to listen to it. And my point is, brands aren't thinking in terms of how do I tap into my consumer's world and all of those different points. And that's the best way to stay competitive.
- [44:54]
Philip
That's a beautiful point on strategy is if you're a coffee shop, you have the best coffee, but what is the world of the. Of your patrons? How do you connect with them all so they feel part of something?
- [45:02]
Camille Moore
Is it a book club? You know, is it. Is it them? Like, rewatch the replaying chess because, you know, Queen's gambit just came out, you know, I mean, like, it's like. That's what I'm trying to say is like, they're not thinking in terms of. If monoculture has died, and it died a while ago with socials, what is the current culture to tap into for your customer base?
- [45:22]
Philip
That's an interesting take. Is monoculture is not just thinking of the culture of your client as just their relationship with your product. It's your client's relationship with. With a bunch of products that creates an interesting world. Yeah. An interesting world that they live in. That's cool.
- [45:38]
Camille Moore
And I also wanted to say too, you know, when, like, I looked at it, Brigitte Bardot died the 28th, and to me, like, you know, just I kind of think of, like, what those people represented. Like, they were kind of those. Those signalers of a monoculture. You know, like when she came out with her iconic, like, eye makeup and red lipstick, like, she kind of made this, like, French girl makeup. And it. It's still. It's interesting to look at how social media changed the world.
- [46:02]
Philip
So true.
- [46:02]
Camille Moore
Okay, so another thing I wanted to talk to you about is actually, it's interesting. So Pat McGrath, her company is for sale. And it's a crazy turn because Pat McGrath is one of the most iconic makeup artists who created a ton of signature looks in the 90s and has really been around the block from, like, a fashion Runway going to the consumer, you know, inspiration for makeup artists. And her business is for sale. And one of the things that was interesting when I was looking at it is that virality doesn't work if you don't have velocity. And it's a substack I'm working on because she had one of the most researched and spiked beauty looks in history. So she did a. She did the makeup for the Margiela show a few years ago, and she did these crazy faces. I've showed it before to you on the. And this look that came out was A signature style of hers that kind of makes these, like. You've never seen skin like it. It looks like lacquered. Like, they've actually, like, poured, like, almost like. It looks so porcelain. And it seriously broke the Internet because it was so different, it was so unique and it was such a cool collaboration. But what's interesting is it took them a year to get a product out that allowed people to emulate this style. And within five days of the look, Pat McGrath's old assistant did a video on TikTok emulating the look with drugstore makeup. And it sold out everything worldwide because people were so infatuated by this look. But it took her a year to get the product to market, and by the time she got the product to market, it had all died because of how fast the trend cycles go. And she's had instances of this in the past few years, which has obviously led to killing the brand.
- [48:00]
Philip
So what are you saying that. So it's being sold her?
- [48:03]
Camille Moore
Yeah. Like, it's on the chopping block. Like, all the assets are gonna be.
- [48:05]
Philip
For sale, but she didn't go bankrupt. It's just being sold.
- [48:08]
Camille Moore
Well, I think the brand is. It's getting to the point where the only thing that makes sense is a sale, because from what I could learn from the headlines is they don't move fast enough. So the problem is that they just. They don't move fast enough and they. It's not as well run of a business as it could be. Like, they're express shipping stuff from Italy to get stuff. Like, it's just. They're not. It's not well managed. And what I wanted to talk about, though, is a lot of businesses think that if they just had virality, like, that would save them. And virality is such a. It's an integral piece, but it's an integral piece to a larger conversation. And that, Pat McGrath, is an example of if you don't have speed to market, if you can't act fast, if you can't move fast, when you have a viral moment, that's not what's going to save you.
- [48:59]
Philip
So it's actually. They're taking bids for it in January 2026, and it's getting ready for sale. What are you seeing in terms of how it's being marketed for sale? And how would you position it to try and get the most value from that brand?
- [49:12]
Camille Moore
It's complicated because the brand isn't. It's reliable, not trendy, cool. So it's not cool because it's like, it's at a tipping point. It's reliable because you trust her name and you respect what she's done in the industry, but without her having. Without her being more visible and it being tied more to these iconic moments. Until that is fixed, won't ever be top of mind because it's expensive. So it's expensive. And it's kind of a brand for makeup artists because, like, they really respect her credibility and what she does behind the scenes. But if you're not in the industry, it doesn't move fast enough and it doesn't have her presence. And that's where it's hard to compete when you have people like Patrick Starr, who the one size we talked about, the face mist, he's so visible, he's so present. Makeup by Mario is doing all this content. So what's interesting is she's, like, making these viral moments, but she's not thinking of it in terms of how do I make money off of it. Because she's like. She's, like, too much of an artist.
- [50:07]
Philip
Yeah, no, it's. It's hard to sell. So she's not selling pieces of art. She's an artist. Right. But operational tempo in an industry where people can replicate what you do is really important. So that speed of operations and your decision, action cycle, it has to be fast in an industry where it can be copied quickly. So, yes, she makes art and that's good, but it's going to affect valuation because she doesn't have the tempo to get the sales.
- [50:34]
Camille Moore
If I was, like, what I would say would be, like, the perfect way to structure this, it would be for LVMH to purchase it and for LVMH to place her and pre plan in advance with their designer brands, what runways she's going to do with what looks and styles and then have products ready to go so that as soon as the moment drops, they have product to capture that moment. Like, that is how I would do it.
- [51:01]
Philip
And that is why you are one of the most in demand consultants in the beauty industry, because that will get multiples much higher than trying to do it through normal channels.
- [51:10]
Camille Moore
That's exactly what I would do. Okay, so next is. I want to touch on this quickly. Apple reportedly is cutting production of its Vision Pro headset after poor sales. And the conversation I wanted to have with you about this is. It's something I've constantly come back to because the people who are obsessed with gadgets were the first ones that, like, bought this and used it. But unanimously, the tech was not good enough. I Actually did a zoom call with one of my clients that had them. And it was like the weirdest experience of this very uncanny version of them that was like floating. There was no background. It wasn't them because it was their avatar of them in the zoom call. Like they were talking to me. They had their headsets on, but it wasn't them. It was a version of them taking the call. And it was just, it was so unprofessional. Like for the person who's spending three grand for these goggles plus and what Jobs they're in and like, it just, it wasn't, it's not good enough. And I guess the question of the conversation I wanted to have with you is, is it a strength for Apple to launch products that are advanced but not market ready for that consumer, or is it a weakness for them to, to put something out that people spent money on that was advanced, that was different, but ultimately wasn't good enough to scale?
- [52:33]
Philip
Like Steve Jobs, when he was brought back into Apple, he said we were trying to do too many things and they weren't the right things. And he said, so we're going to come back and we're going to wait until we get the thing that we know can make it, which was the ipod, you know, a thousand. So he didn't try to chase any trend that could have been. So these virtual reality things, anybody who's put them on, you're kind of entertained by the novelty, but it doesn't bring you into the world. And I think it's because humans need spatial balance in terms of what their feet feel. So just through the visuals, not understanding so good on Apple for trying to do something, they tried to do a car, they had to drop the car, right? They lost billions. Maybe this could have worked. Like, I often go back to that quote, on the planes of battle lie the black and bones accountants. Millions who on the verge of victory, sat down to rest and resting, died. Maybe they're giving up too early because if you're actually trying to create a new category, you have to go through a long period of suffering. But I don't think that these goggles are the way to go because it's just, I think people saw them on a movie and so experts think, okay, we can do goggles and people will just be immersed because they're not actually like going right into the optic nerve and creating a world in your brain. They're just creating a visual different look in front of you. What's way more interesting for me for zooms would be investing in holographic technology. Like, I'd like to be able to stand and then see like a holograph of that person and we all have the cameras. And then I feel like I'm in person because in person is much more relevant to me. But to do a zoom with that is not cool. Right? Because it doesn't, it doesn't compute with how your brain sees the world. But in a three dimensional room where there's four of us with the holograms talking, I don't need headphones, I don't need the goggles for it. I just want to see the holograms as we're talking.
- [54:14]
Camille Moore
Oh, interesting. So bring the real, like bring the fake into the real world, opposed to you wearing them and then being in that room with your glasses. It's. I, to me, it's more of a conversation than it is where I have like a strong opinion on it. Because when I think about the potentiality of where the world is going in the conversation of like the universal basic income and like jobs being cut from AI, what makes more sense to me is a downgrading of space and, and putting on these goggles so that you can like, not. And that's where this, the larger conversation of experience is what's becoming the real luxury. Because there's only so many people that can be at an event in any given moment. And as more and more people lose jobs, the ability to do things in real life is what's going to become the real luxury. So it's, there's kind of a bit of a dystopic larger conversation of did it make sense for them to start launching these? Because this is where we're going, like.
- [55:13]
Philip
Elon, and I know there's haters out there, but this guy's competent. And it's a difference between a founder with a vision, which is like Steve Jobs, and a corporation that has a board and a bunch of experts. And so, Elon, I've been kind of thinking, why don't you do a phone? Why don't you do a phone? That's. And he's recently said, I'm not doing a phone. Phones are done. You're going to have something in your pocket that's an AI structured thing that's going to create holograms in front of you. So he's bypassing that whole limit. I feel like Apple thought, oh, virtual, we can do this. And he's thinking outside of the box in terms of new technology. I don't think it's going to be Virtual, his neural link will be closer to producing what they're trying to do with goggles.
- [55:51]
Camille Moore
Oh, interesting. So because it's in your brain, it can be the feeling. Feeling of, like, what it is like to be on a beach and relaxing.
- [55:59]
Philip
You know, like when you're in a dream. Like, a dream can seem really real. Right. But watching something through virtual glasses isn't anything like it because it's constraining our experience to in here as opposed to, you know, so Elon is the guy who's going to get us close to that with. And he just keeps kicking Apple's butt. Right. He should probably just buy Apple.
- [56:20]
Camille Moore
When I think of the vision pros in general, I just. I found the marketing of it actually quite poor because the never. Like, I'm such a. I love tech. Like, I just will own anything technology. And I don't feel like I ever really realized what the point of it was. And the people around me that had it, their reasoning was, you know, they can put them on and they can, you know, do work in their car. You know, they can have four screens in a way that's way easier than, you know, having to, like, awkwardly put your laptop on your lap and, like, type away.
- [56:51]
Philip
Apple should have focused way more. They have an Apple watch. They should focus way more on Apple glasses. You know, like, there's an AI component and make the visual field in front of you better. Like, they should. I think they should have gone full into Apple glasses with, like, gentle monster.
- [57:05]
Camille Moore
I think the meta glasses, like, I just. That's not my style. And I think that because it's so subjective to, like, like, what looks good on your face. But you're right, like, if they leaned into, like, different glasses types. Yeah, I mean, that's a good idea.
- [57:19]
Philip
That would have been a good thing.
- [57:20]
Camille Moore
But anyway, cool. I was gonna pull up the next one here that I wanted to show you because I had. Lindsay McCarthy sent me this, and she's, like, dying to hear us talk about this. So I want to show you this campaign. Equinox dropped this. So basically it's like, happy New Year. We are not okay is the caption. And it's like, literally this horrifying AI of it moving into different people. And everyone is like, are you guys hacked? Like, this is so off brand. Like, what's the brand, Equinox?
- [57:48]
Philip
The gym.
- [57:48]
Camille Moore
The gym.
- [57:49]
Philip
Oh, well, like, keep watching. It's interesting because it's the gym, because cake, body shaming, everything is in there.
- [57:56]
Camille Moore
But the thing. The thing to me, though, that what I wanted to touch on is like, is we're in the era of people are so desperate to be talked about. You know, like, it kind of annoys me that Equinox can, can just do this like repulsive AI campaign that is completely off brand so that people like us talk about them and they get this earned media value hit. And like where this is just going to go this year of people just want to be able to measure like being talked about. It's a kind of. It's not well done, but it's the same idea of this. Well done, unmemorable or like you get a headline completely unmemorable. Like it's not building the brand in any way.
- [58:35]
Philip
I'm going to disagree with Camille Moore on this.
- [58:39]
Camille Moore
All right, let's disagree.
- [58:41]
Philip
I think it's actually brilliant at a psychological level because it speaks to most things are fake online in terms of other people. And the message that I would maybe think is behind it is the people at Equinox are actually real. They go in person, but this shows a picture that morphs into unhealthiness, all of this crap. And it's kind of saying like, look, we're not all okay, but at Equinox we're probably real and we're doing it. And it's talking about how the world is unhealthy, how AI is everywhere. Like, I think, I think it speaks, I think it speaks to some people that'll have pride going to Equinox, thinking everybody else is, is wearing a mask.
- [59:15]
Camille Moore
I think that's such a stretch. I could.
- [59:18]
Philip
Well, why else would they do that?
- [59:19]
Camille Moore
I think for the exact reason that we're going to see a lot of brands do this. Is that. Sorry, so like the McDonald's one that where.
- [59:26]
Philip
No, but what is the intent of that New Year's ad?
- [59:28]
Camille Moore
It's for people to be like, are you hacked? This is so off brand. Who is. Who approved this?
- [59:33]
Philip
What is to say that most of the people, the population are not okay? Most of the people are infected with issues, illnesses, they're subscribing to AI and that's what they're saying. Most of the people aren't okay. And the inference is that at Equinox we're real. Because I think there's a value of in person experience, which I think we'll talk about later, but it's showing that where most people are living is in this fake world of bs. And the thing is like at Equinox we, we actually, we actually go into a gym with people who are real.
- [60:04]
Camille Moore
I respect that you have a differing opinion. I think that's what keeps us, what keeps this interesting. How I. My perspective for this segment is I really think that with AI there's such a short window of people getting headlines because they can do ridiculous things that would never be approved if not for it being so easy and so economically affordable. And that people in these positions of marketing are, and it's not unfair to them, are being expected to just get hits. And the ability to get hit to be so off brand in a way that never would be able to be before. Is creating these not well done, that it's like good branding, but like a visually well executed product that's completely unmemorable.
- [60:49]
Philip
Well, we're talking about it.
- [60:50]
Camille Moore
We are talking about it, but we're also talking about it because people are like sending it being like, I can't wait for you to talk about this because all the comments are, this is so off brand. So it's like, it's like becoming.
- [60:59]
Philip
But being off brand is memorable.
- [61:00]
Camille Moore
It doesn't make you want to go to Equinox. It makes me think that Equinox is like so desperate that they're just like wanting to get us to talk about it.
- [61:06]
Philip
Yeah, but that's what memorable is. Memorable is getting somebody to talk about. So in New Year's where everybody is just doing the same nonsense every. They actually kind of said, look, it's New Year's and we're not okay society. And it has like, it has like cake and an obese person and somebody who looks drug addicted to. And so they're saying, hey, look, 2026, we're not just going to BS and say everything is fine, everything's not fine, but you can control a little bit of your fineness at Equinox.
- [61:30]
Camille Moore
Yeah. I mean, if the video ended with like a person looking great running on a treadmill, like, not like the, the head turning into cake. So let's talk about 2025. What was your favorite campaign?
- [61:42]
Philip
What was my favorite campaign?
- [61:43]
Camille Moore
So I did for Glossy, I talked about Kim's Miss which if you are wanting to read that, read that. I'm going to give you a different one just to shake it up. Because the tldr of why I really liked Kim Smith is live shopping has been such an opportunity that brands haven't wanted to touch because the people doing it were like, for lack of a better term beneath them and skims. And Kim coming out and doing it at such a high level to me was standout because she really set the tone. And you're going to see a huge groundswell of larger brands moving to lives, because she did it, however, to take a different approach. My favorite campaign of the year was Victoria's Secret. The reason why is I want to celebrate brands going back to their brand and taking risks to piss off the Twitterati Victoria's Secret. In their third quarter, their international sales were up 33.5% from last year, and the company reported $1.47 billion in net Q3 sales, beating their own projections. So the ideas at the fashion show obviously worked. And the reason I want to celebrate that is we've become, as a society, so afraid to piss off people that don't matter. Not in a pejorative sense to say that people with an opinion don't matter, but in a way that if they're not your customer, they cannot take up your brain space. And Victoria's Secret going back to what made them great as a huge brand with guardrails that would have not allowed them to do that, was such a great impact indicator for us to start this year of be bold, be you lean back in to what made you great. Because heritage brands are back. Ralph Lauren was the most cited Christmas theme because they went back to what they did. Timothy Burberry. They went back to their roots, and.
- [63:26]
Philip
Their roots are where you did things well with class and elegance. I loved Ralph Lauren. I love the Victoria's Secret show, the movie Tiger. There was a lot of movement towards doing things that were interesting and risky and made sense. Again, my favorite campaign I got just at a pure execution level is American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney, like, essentially going back to what, work with Brooke Shields selling sex, Selling something that's pure, that spoke to an audience and not. Not being worried, not being deflected by controversy, because in a world where a million people are going to judge you the second it comes out, they're often going to be able to find some angle to hate on you and just ignoring it and moving forward. I thought there was some strength of character and courage, and it put American Eagle back on the map 100%.
- [64:10]
Camille Moore
I was talking with a big brand recently, and I'm like, lean. Like, you're so afraid of not doing what made you famous. And by doing that, you're. You're dying. Like, you're killing your company because you're not saying anything. And people are so afraid by someone that, like, no one was shopping at American Eagle. Like, they were. Like, they had such a huge footprint and they were dying. So they now maintain the people that Already weren't shopping there to be more vocal about not shopping there. And then they brought a ton more people into the store. Like, you can't only measure what doesn't matter. Like, that's why I like the Signal versus the Noise is such an important book for business owners is that you need to know what to follow and what questions to ask.
- [64:53]
Philip
The name of my substack signal.
- [64:55]
Camille Moore
All right, so let's talk about how you can inspire our listeners to look at the year ahead.
- [65:01]
Philip
So New Year's resolutions, most people have failed by the 13th. It's like something like 80%. And the reason why is most people don't understand the human brain. We have a prefrontal cortex, which we call the executive part of the brain. That's. That's the brain that sits down and where we write out and organize our day, make a to do list. And when people have a brain injury in the front of their head, they can't organize their day. It's that prefrontal cortex. It's the last thing that we evolved as humans. But we have a mammalian brain on top of a reptilian brain. Most of our decisions that we focus our resolutions are, are governed by the mammalian brain, which is snacking, sleeping, resting, not working out. And people try to make resolutions with the prefrontal cortex without tricking the brain into doing things that motivate them. A million brains. So the best way if you're doing resolutions this year is my gift to you from all the behavioral psychology I've studied is write two versions of yourself. The first version is, if I do, if I successfully follow all of my New year's resolutions for 10 years, what will I look like? And that's what people usually do, is they're appealing to kind of happiness. Humans don't aren't wired to look for happiness. They're wired to look for safety or risk aversion. That's actually. The mammalian brain is one. It's. The mammalian brain is not searching for happiness. It's searching for risk aversion. We think we can govern our behavior through happiness searching. But you write one version of yourself where everything worked well, and then in great detail, write another version of you ten years down the road, if you don't correct all of these things and be as. Be as vivid and as visceral as you can. I'm a loser. I'm bankrupt. I'm fat. I have nobody around me. But what you're doing is you're tricking your mammalian brain into fearing that outcome. And that Fear factor actually motivates you to change behavior 10 times more than a happiness factor. So you actually have to perceive what the negative risk is of you not doing it and focusing on that. And if you write those two, two elements of yourself in 10 years and you read that negative one, it's going to be a lot easier to. To stick to your resolutions.
- [67:12]
Camille Moore
It's such an astute way to propel yourself forward. I find New Year's in the mindset shift that I've undergone within the last few years. I found it, I find it. I don't think anymore in terms of that the year is resetting, I think in continuation for like perpetual growth. And I listened to, to the Diary of a CEO episode with James Clear amazing over the holidays. And I highly recommend listening to that if you. Reading Atomic Habits. It was a very good book. But I, I like this condensed version as kind of like that, that kick in the pants, like that kickstart. And one of the things he said gave me the words I needed to communicate outwardly to the feedback I receive, which is this constant idea of, you know, when is it enough? When are you gonna slow down? When are you gonna take a break? What are you chasing? Like this idea that I can't achieve happiness because I'm always looking for something that's ahead of me. And when he says in this YouTube video is. He goes. In dealing with that, he's like. He goes. I always think about an oak tree and I think about how the different stages of a seed to an acorn to, to. And how that it. It grows. And at every moment of where it is, it is, it's present, it's enjoying that stage, but it's, it's in a state of growth. Like it just is something that's growing. That's how. When you're. What you're saying like how.
- [68:40]
Philip
Or it's dying or it's dying.
- [68:41]
Camille Moore
Yeah, but. But the way that I, that I, that I want to reframe is I want to be happy. I want to be present in where I am, but I always want to be focusing on getting better. And that's why I really resonated with the Jiro dreams of sushi is that this idea of it's a gift in life to be focused on improvement and whatever that next stage is, not for the sake of what is there, but to enjoy each moment for where you want to go. And that's why I like your ideas. If you're horrified of this version of you that doesn't have this this idea of growth. And if you're not doing the 1% every day to keep improving yourself, where does it go?
- [69:19]
Philip
It's interesting, like, happiness is not a destination. Happiness is a state of mind that usually results from. Is a lagging indicator of what you did six months ago.
- [69:27]
Camille Moore
Yeah.
- [69:27]
Philip
So whatever you're feeling today is a lagging indicator of what you did six months ago. But in the present, we're like, oh, I want to be happy in the future, but, you know, just do what you need to do to be happy in the. You know, and then you will be happy in the future, but stop focusing on it. And my last thing at 2026, be impatient with action and patient with results. People want results too quickly, but be impatient with action. Make the content reach out. Dare to be different. Be patient with the results as long as you do the right thing.
- [69:56]
Camille Moore
I love that. And Philip got us a really great Christmas present. He got us the 1% diary by diary of a CEO. And I think that that is, like, really the best way to think about improvement is people think in such extremes. Like, I'm gonna lean into my personal brand and I'm gonna post five to six times per week. Opposed to. When you think of that version of yourself, is it someone that has social credibility, that has followers? Well, work backwards. What does it take to get there? What is your crawl, walk, run so you can change your mindset so you can start working towards that? Because the biggest thing is consistency. Like, you don't wanna be someone that goes to the gym for two weeks and is super sore, goes seven days a week and then completely drops off. Right. You need to think about in those, like, really small percentage improvements that compound over time.
- [70:45]
Philip
I hope everybody has a wonderful New Year's holiday season and is inspired to go forth and multiply and kick ass and dare to be different.
- [70:55]
Camille Moore
I look forward to growing with you guys this year. Thank you for giving us your time in this past year and we'll see.
- [71:00]
Philip
You in person in LA at some point.
- [71:02]
Camille Moore
Let's kick ass, guys. Soon.