Loading summary
Transcript61 lines
- [00:00]
A
Women who didn't want that aspirational feel. And that's where the market expanded. And Victoria's Secret didn't need to be for everyone. Let's talk about the Joker.
- [00:12]
B
Another, another. We need a. We need a sound effect for absolute brand disasters. You know, like the sinking of the Titanic is essentially what they did is they took. They took a brand that was spectacular. The Joker is the first R rated movie ever to get $1 billion in ticket sales.
- [00:29]
A
That's the crazy stat.
- [00:30]
B
The first ever. It's not Batman, it's the Joker. And an intellectual analysis of why that is is worth doing. But you have this movie that did so well, and then somebody somewhere in a studio, executives in house, advisors decide to do the Joker too. And in the shortest time span ever, absolutely destroy a brand, Right? But by betraying all of the trust with the audience. In terms of what people expected from the Joker, how do you explain you going from a $50 million budget for the Joker one and a billion dollars in revenue, and then a $300 million budget and no revenue? How does that decision making get there? And why would you explain it? For those of you who don't know, the Joker came out as a musical with Lady Gaga and it totally went against what the Joker represented in the first movie and tried to kind of create a reality that people thought the Joker should be in this kind of politically correct world.
- [01:31]
A
I'm really shocked by the decision making that is happening within industries where I would assume they're smarter than I, you know, like it. I was actually excited to see the Joker too, when I saw the billboards go up, because the first movie was. Was so uncanny. Like, it was so, in a scary way, captivating to be kind of reminded that, like, people like us like that, like the Joker could walk kind of among us, which was like, really the core kind of point of that movie is that, like, these people who are like, shat on by society, you know, like, and are so angry and so fueled and so dangerous, you know, just can kind of walk the streets and like, they're kind of there. I thought the addition of Lady Gaga was intriguing because there's something kind of Harlequin about her.
- [02:29]
B
No, she could have been used to great effect, but I also don't think.
- [02:35]
A
Singing also bothers me. I just don't think that that's the role of, you know, like her role or addition could have been one with song without needing to change the framework. It doesn't bother me. Like, I think that there's a version of A screenplay where there's like a harlequin figure that maybe like, hums or like, sings after she kills someone.
- [02:59]
B
Look, if they wanted to make the Joker into a musical, that's a different angle, right? Like, you know, but I'm not saying.
- [03:05]
A
Making it a musical. I'm just saying, like, I just don't know what. How many decisions were made to get to the point where they completely strayed away from what made the original movie a success?
- [03:17]
B
This is my question. Part of me thinks it's actually a deliberate act by people who have gotten. Who have control over the content to kind of almost ruin something to make a political point. Because, like, if you were to put the concept on a piece of paper to 50 smart humans about the proper way to do a sequel to the Joker, I don't think anybody would. Would select bringing in a musical element, calling it Folies Deux and then, and then, and then turning the brand upside down. Like, it, like Phoenix hated it from the whole thing. Like he, he was signed on to do it. But, you know, like, they detest the actual content. I think it. I think it hurt Lady Gaga. I think a few people tried to make a point, ruined a brand, hurt careers, you know, and I don't. I don't hear anybody getting fired from that. But I want to understand.
- [04:08]
A
But that's where I'm struggling with this is like, it seems so obvious from where we're sitting because it just doesn't make sense. Like, it doesn't make sense how, like, movie after movie is just hitting these politically correct boxes, but are providing no context, no story, nothing of meaning, and it's not working. And I don't know who's approving this.
- [04:36]
B
It's almost like there's this insistence to, to prove a point and they can get away with it because Marvel Comics is showing that the more politically correct it's getting, the less money it's making, right? And then the Joker comes out and is like, just painful. It's a painful movie in terms of dealing with uncomfortable stuff, incredibly non politically correct, but it's not even focused on that. And then. And it gets a billion dollars. And then it's like somebody wants to prove a point. It's almost like the Lord of the Rings on Amazon, just a complete disaster because they've. They're ruining what people love about the brand. Like, and they're doing it deliberately.
- [05:10]
A
But that isn't confusing. Like, that's what I don't understand is, like, the Joker as a movie, there was nothing in it that really it revolved around politically correct messaging. So why the second version has to have that enforcement, it just shows that there's something that we're missing by way of like clearly they wanted to make this more relevant and a part of what they think is the zeitgeist.
- [05:37]
B
I actually think there's a Trump element to it. Controversial or not. Like because the Joker reflected kind of an incel population that has grown in influence in western society. These men who are kind of hiding and who get upset and have a propensity for violence. That's a real. That's a reality that's existing. The movie captured it and guess what happened? People went and watched it and it was like we're gonna say, well, we don't really agree with the concept of incels and we don't really like what it's doing. So we're gonna make a movie that corrects this. So it's movie.
- [06:08]
A
But I don't know. But like how does that get approved at a 300 million dollar budget when there's pure data to show by way of ticket sales that there's a massive. Like it was, it was kind of like a car wreck. Like you couldn't. It was the complete ambivalence to this movie of like it's horrifying to watch but you can't look away. Yeah, right. And that's what made that movie so compelling in the way that Joaquin Felix, Felix Phoenix played the part is that he perfectly captured that like insane person that can sneak through the cracks and exist in society.
- [06:47]
B
And he built on Heath Ledger's performance. Like he kind of.
- [06:50]
A
Well, that's what made the Joker so captivating is what Heath Ledger achieved in the Dark Knight. Like this. It's this kind of person that walks among us that we're the most afraid of because their insanity is just. They're so functional in their insanity. And that's what's so scary to us. Cause you hear about these horrific and you just can't. Who is that person?
- [07:18]
B
Or the dark thoughts that exist on the edge of all of our consciousness. That people, you know. But there are people who like really dwell in those areas and hide.
- [07:26]
A
But I think there's an actual like fascination for us to understand the psyche of these crazy. Like that's why like even the like the Dylan Klebold, like there was so much documentaries on like what this kid was like before Columbine, you know, and even when you look at like Mindhunter and like there's just such a fascination on the psychology of like, how do you be. Become this. So to have this movie that actually captured it in a really eerie way. Just it, it. I just.
- [07:57]
B
Art. Art is on the edge.
- [07:59]
A
Oh yeah, right.
- [08:00]
B
Like if you're making something that's going to be great and artistic, you have to push boundaries and be on the edge to get people's attention. The Joker did that, Phoenix and Ledger did that. And then all of a sudden you put Phoenix into a script that's designed to take away all of the edge. And, and from my perspective, even with a legal background, if I was a shareholder of Warner Brothers, I would want to be suing Warner Brothers. Because you're right. Like, how do you make that decision? Who made that decision to lose $200 million on a film and ruin a brand? Cause that brand could have been a multi billion dollar brand that you could have got four or five.
- [08:35]
A
But there's something larger to this that I just don't know really how we provide commentary. It's like the stat was like every movie almost that came out in 2024, maybe it's 2025. It's like a remake or like a sequel version. Like, why is there no budget for original screenplays? Or like, how are we in this? Like, it's larger than the Joker too? Like, how are we getting to this place? What are we missing? And like, that's what I'm kind of struggling with is when all I hear is that these things aren't working and like they're not getting sales. What is the thinking pattern if everything is driven by at least money in tv?
- [09:18]
B
Well, it's not driven, I guess, in today's society just by money because nobody gets fired. I think why it's relevant to some of our listeners is the same thing is happening in business, right? Like you have Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, right? And then all of a sudden you can't use dwarfs because it's bad for dwarfs. And then you have a Hispanic person playing, you know, a white character, which you couldn't do. Like all of these things to try to socially policy or, you know, to preach to people are economic failures. Like, it's good, good. Real stories from real communities work. And I think it's happening in business where businesses are suffering because they're doing the same thing that movie producers are doing on Amazon and Netflix is just kind of diluting everything into nothingness.
- [10:02]
A
Well, I think where, where I feel like we can have a relevant conversation on this or to what we do, the brands, the products, the things that are really killing it Right now, by way of, like, measurable statistics are things that are controversial. They're not things that are racist. They're not things that are sexist. They're not things that necessarily need to be political, but they're things that are being authentic to what they are, and they're being unapologetic in that execution. Like, number one podcast is call her Daddy. Right? Like, the, you know, top influencers are people like Laura in Bostic. Like, they're these more, like, exposed personalities that are prepared to be more raw and unfiltered than these constructed narratives that are. That are designed to show how polite, you know, they are.
- [10:57]
B
Yeah, well, brands are being hijacked by political agendas, and it's. It's infiltrated top decision making. And.
- [11:04]
A
But we need. We need a core takeaway. Like, how does this. Like that. I'm not interested. I'm not interested in touching that from a. Like, how do you learn from this? Because the problem is, if people are seeing all of these movies going out, that's what the problem is with the business owner's mindset is they're like, this is what the people want.
- [11:22]
B
This is the zeitgeist that we have to do. But they're forgetting they're all losing money.
- [11:25]
A
But this is the difficult area that we have to navigate, is that what we're seeing that's working by way of metrics that you care about, which is, like, sales conversions. What's doing well is not the things that these big society markers are telling you that's working.
- [11:48]
B
That's why the role of good advisors is so important. So, like, if they would have hired me, you have an audience that clearly liked it. Right. What I would do is sample 10,000 people who love the original Joker and then get from them what they would like to see from that character. What are the most interesting things, Right? Like, they weren't speaking to the customer who bought the product. They decided to betray the customer. And that's why it's a disaster. Their numbers would be far worse if you could get refunds. Because everybody I've talked to says people are walking out of the movie halfway through. So they're getting some sales, but if it was refunded, they'd have almost none, because people won't stay through the whole movie. It's that bad.
- [12:24]
A
Well, you get a refund if you leave early.
- [12:27]
B
I've never seen that. I didn't know that. I don't think most people know that. There's your public service announcement. If the movie sucks, go Get a refund.
- [12:32]
A
You can actually leave and get a refund if you're like, this is.
- [12:34]
B
Have you done that?
- [12:35]
A
No, but I know.
- [12:36]
B
How do you know this?
- [12:36]
A
Because I knew people that did it. For the Hobbit.
- [12:38]
B
For the Hobbit?
- [12:39]
A
Yeah.
- [12:40]
B
Number one, two or three or just.
- [12:41]
A
I don't know. This was a few years ago, but it was the same one that I walked out of because I'm like, this is horrible. You know, not for me. Yeah, fair enough. Not for me. But I think that we should circle back on that point because I think that's really the only point that I want to make with the Joker. And it's that why the Joker failed for the second movie is because they, they did not understand who their customer was and who their target market is. And that's where having conversations about things that are politically correct are difficult because in order to criticize it therefore makes you a bad person. But when people don't like something that completely verged from the original product that was successful, that's when you have a brand problem. And we're in a really crappy time where we can't criticize things that are designed to be polite. And polite doesn't work for a lot of things. And you need to understand when to do something and when it makes sense for your brand, depending on what your goals are. And with the Joker being the first R rated movie to make a billion dollars, for the second movie to have a $300 million investment versus a $50 million investment was clearly under the direction to surpass the sales made in the first movie. In the first movie. And to do that without understanding what made that so culturally relevant and iconic and to miss that mark is the takeaway for you as a brand owner that it doesn't matter what you think the Zeitgeist is. You need to speak to a customer. And that's a very different directive.
- [14:19]
B
And it just emphasizes that there is huge incompetence at the highest levels, even though we assume they're all smarter than us at every stage.
- [14:27]
A
And I actually think that's why it's a great time to be a small or medium sized business. Because the big brands are so clunky, they're so incapable, they can't get anything done. They're listening to so many voices and decision makers. And especially with public companies, it's very difficult because the people that sit on the boards, the executive teams, nobody wants to put anything forward that pushes the boundary because they don't want to be the person that gets laid. They're so afraid, without actually any real context to what gets canceled, of cancelability, that they just, they play so safe. It's like they're in bubble wrap. Like they're in bubble wrap. Like they're rolling in these bubble wrap balls. Because even anything close to like a second sequel to the Joker 2 that would be like darker, pushing the boundaries further is just so insensitive to the time. And nobody wants to be that person in case it goes bad. And when they're getting so much soundboarding from the same level of thinking where everyone just wants to keep, keep their second and third vacation homes and they all just want to get paid and they want to go home without stress or they don't want to have that fear of the potential of something even though it's completely so unreasonable they're not getting anything done. That's interesting.
- [15:41]
B
Yeah. I was talking to some top executive coaches when I was in LA and we were brainstorming and it's almost in corporations, in order to get to the top, you have to be lost. You have to be risk averse. Like you have to be promoted so you can't stick your neck out. And if you do what you're told, you'll end up moving up, up the chain and get promoted. But for companies, the CEO has to be creative, has to be willing to accept a bit of risk. But the selection process to get there almost deselects people out. And so now you have people leading these corporations who don't have the ability to build a brand or be dynamic because there's no creativity or risk tolerance.
- [16:17]
A
Oh. And it's even when you think about. Yes, but I think it's even kind of actually more complicated than that. There's so many CEOs or C suite executives we'll talk to that will really agree with your opinion or they'll really like your content. And they're like, yeah, I can't say that, can't touch that. Even though I agree with that. They're like, yeah, it's just not worth it. I don't want to deal with Joanne from hr. It's at a point where nobody feels like they can say anything that actually creates dialogue and discourse. They don't want friction.
- [16:48]
B
But I would say to a CEO whose compensation is not just salary based but it's performance based, like they got options or whatever. If you want to make a difference, not taking anything away from your path to get to CEO, but ask yourself, do you really have the creative curiosity to take it to the next Level because you need it. And we all want to think we have it all, and you got to that position. But if you really want to, like, hit the jackpot on your options, you've got to bring in an advisor who can say what you need to hear, not what you want to hear.
- [17:15]
A
I've got such a perfect example that I want to touch on. We recently watched the Party by Peter Sellers, and it was crazy for me to watch this movie because this was something that my dad has referenced throughout my life without realizing what movie it came from. And I was shocked when I watched the movie because I was like, well, one. I mean, this would never pass today. And I had to actually work through the discomfort of seeing someone pretend to be an Indian man and, like, work through, like, all of the different arguments of, like, why couldn't you hire an Indian person to do this role? And. But once I. I kind of. It was. And it was really interesting because we had Googled it and done some research afterwards, and it was crazy that it was, like, literally the number one movie in India.
- [18:01]
B
Yeah. So the Segue is the Party, starring Peter Sellers, plays an East Indian man who comes to Hollywood, and he's just unbelievable. Method actor. And your point that people in India, it became their most favorite movie, you.
- [18:15]
A
Know, and it's so interesting to, like, you know, one, this would never be done today. And two, you know, the question, you know, is, does it need to? But then, three, it's like, this was such an iconic movie. It was really loved by so many people. And, like, the quotes and the things that came out of the Method acting, like, became really culturally relevant and prolific. And it's really seen as one of the best movies. And it's not necessarily always the case, but it's something to consider in wanting to push the boundaries, is that true art form also comes from pushing the boundaries, but also accepting what is. What's made the Joker so successful is that we have this real fear right now of these crazy people that live on the fringes that can get access to things like guns. And that was really the Joker's role in the Dark Knight. It's like he had these guns. He was, like, hiring all these convicts. They were like, mastery breaking down banks and stuff. And it's kind of what's going on in the US In a different scale with these mass murders.
- [19:18]
B
I highly recommend people watch the Party just for the aesthetic. Like, it was one of the most pioneering films of its time in terms of how it follows segments.
- [19:28]
A
It's chaos. Yeah.
- [19:29]
B
But how it moves is amazing. And that. What's that phrase? Birdie num nums. I didn't know that's where I came from.
- [19:35]
A
My dad, like, I still have yet to tell. I got to record a segment of me telling my dad I watched the movie and just. He's not even really going to respond. He's just going to shout lines at me from the movie because he just loved the movie so much.
- [19:47]
B
Birdie num nums. But that there's not enough of that out there. No that type of art anymore.
- [19:54]
A
I mean, even, like. I mean, these are the greatest movies. Like White Chicks, you know, like the Wayne brothers going, like, these are the movies that I just. I've probably watched White Chicks, I think probably the most of almost any movie I've ever seen, because really never watched it once. Oh, my gosh, it was so funny. And growing up, like, I just thought it was the funniest thing to have the Wayne brothers, like, make fun of blonde Valley Girl White Chicks. Like, to me, it was hilarious. And that's a movie that we like, that we quoted forever. And this isn't a call for movies that make fun of races. It's just that there's. We just. We need to be able to have these conversations without fear of reprisal.
- [20:36]
B
I like it from a perspective of Mormons versus some other religions.
- [20:41]
A
Oh, with the Book of Mormon, right?
- [20:42]
B
Like the Book of Mormon, they don't threaten to blow up the theater that's playing it. They actually go. And as a family, they kind of laugh at this amazing musical. Like, we need to embrace that yourself.
- [20:54]
A
But it just. It. That's not a conversation that I necessarily feel I need to have, other than. I just feel like we should not be afraid of discourse. We should be able to have a conversation and to test ideas and subjects that are outside of your comfort zone, because that's where art is made.
- [21:15]
B
Fascinating. How do we get on the party?
- [21:19]
A
I brought that up because I was thinking about where we've lost the art of good movies and.