Philip (2:58)

I think we use the term strategy and marketing loosely. Right. So understanding what the strategy is when we say gateway strategy, is it just to sell more product? If that's not a strategy, that's a goal. Where I think it diverges from strategy is I don't know what the strategy is. I think the strategy is only we need to keep revenues up because people aren't buying our overpriced products. So now they're buying our overpriced products at cheaper price points. And the life cycle of a brand often gets here when a company goes public and they need revenues to be up. And so then they start expanding into categories they have no business being in leveraging their brand, but in doing so, devaluing it. So this is the final death cycle of these brands. By expand it from my opinion, by expanding into these things. And all it's going to do is make people pay way too much for things they shouldn't pay at a lower price level. Level.

Camille (3:49)

I disagree.

Philip (3:49)

Let's go.

Camille (3:50)

The role of luxury has changed and I think that's relevant to look at because of social media, luxury branding has been democratized. Right. The, the idea of you should have something this nice no matter where you are on the economic totem pole is what's changed on social media.

Philip (4:08)

By definition, that's not luxury. Luxury is scarcity. Luxury is not democratized. It just that then it just becomes common.

Camille (4:16)

You're not wrong by the original definition of luxury, but that classism has changed. Right. Where before the only way that you were able to get Louis Vuitton is if you could travel to Paris. Right. Like transportation limitations was a massive reason of what made not only just on.

Philip (4:31)

Price point, but wasn't the only way because people had it in London and Hong Kong and New York City. It just, it was harder to get.

Camille (4:39)

But those were also concentrated wealth centers.

Philip (4:41)

Yeah, it was harder to get and harder to replicate.

Camille (4:43)

Harder to get, harder to replicate. I don't disagree with you. I mean, we talk about it all the time on the podcast that luxury is dying. But what I think is interesting about this strategy, whether it's the Louis Vuitton chocolates that they're selling in New York to on a more extreme level, the Goyard wallet.

Philip (4:58)

Let me dig down and push back because you're the, the branding thing. Are you making an excuse for them or is it a good branding move? Because from my perspective it's a, it's a horrific branding move driven by economic need to please shareholders. There is nothing about it that makes Louis Vuitton's brand better that they're selling candies and eyeliner.

Camille (5:18)

I think that their brand is stronger selling. I think they're not making brand.

Philip (5:23)

Yeah, they're not making the products, they're just licensing their brand.

Camille (5:26)

No, so Louis Vuitton is making this product. They partner with Pat McGrath who is one of the most famous makeup artists. She has her own line and she's famous for doing these like Runway pieces where she like literally turned these faces into glass dolls. Like Louis Vuitton formulated this and developed it. And, and it's also with making Hermes beauty line quite successful is they're very slow to launch products because they want the products to be exceptional.

Philip (5:49)

They're paying for people to go to do high end products. But you know, if you're jack of all trades, you're master of none. Like they were, they were known for exquisite craftsmanship in purses. Right.

Camille (5:59)

But I, but I think you're, you're looking at this from, from the angle of art. Like the art of luxury has died. This strategy of luxury of instead of cheapening the price point for the most expensive good, like I'm studying right now, the Cartier story. When they were in the Great Depression, they introduced stationery and trinkets that were like 5, 10, $20 and they changed the packaging so it wasn't red leather, it was blue leather. So that it allowed people to aspirationally buy into Cartier that later became customers. That was the tipping point that made Cartier a household name because it was no longer reserved to the Vanderbilts, the Rockefellers and European royalty. So when you're in a down, you still are creating something that's expensive within the category. It's a quality product and it allows people to buy into the Louis Vuitton universe. Like it's, it's a good brand strategy.

Philip (6:50)

Well, I disagree. Cartier had a strategy that was designed to get people to expose to their brand so they can do it. Everybody has known Louis Vuitton. This isn't a brand strategy. This is a revenue strategy designed to please investors from my perspective. So they're in different places in the brand lifestyle. Cartier was in its infancy. Louis Vuitton is at the end of its luxury brand. Louis Vuitton is just becoming Nike. That's essentially what.

Camille (7:14)

And so I don't disagree with that.

Philip (7:16)

We need to find what people need to do. Luxury is, it is emerging in different areas where people are making curated things and cultivated things.

Camille (7:24)

But here's what's complicated about what you're saying. Louis Vuitton is becoming a Louis Vuitton version of Nike because more people are coming into wealth and more people are justifying having a nice thing. And that's where the eyeshadow and lipstick preference price point is interesting because $265 eyeshadow still it, it still self selects out people who aren't that Louis Vuitton customer like to spend 300, almost US$300 on an eyeshadow palette is probably someone who's going to have a longer life cycle of being a Louis Vuitton customer.

Philip (7:58)

They're probably trying to get their existing customers to spend more. Right. By taking their existing customers and buying.

Camille (8:04)

People who will be future customers into their brand universe.

Philip (8:07)

To me it just public companies don't have brand strategy, they have revenue strategy and it's just how do we make more money? And they just slowly eat away at the value of the brand that has been made up.

Camille (8:17)

I'm not being a purist and I agree with you.

Philip (8:19)

No, I'm not being a purist, I'm just saying recognize because our listeners are not where they are. What they're doing isn't necessarily a good strategy for a small, mid sized or growing business. All we're doing is like looking at what a big company is doing to try and make more money.

Camille (8:32)

The only thing though that I that's.

Philip (8:33)

Why I don't find it interesting because it's. Anybody with money can just add skus and then pay somebody to partner with. What are we doing that's interesting and that's what our listeners need to do is you need to actually find stuff to do that's, that's interesting to attract people to your brand so you can build it.

Camille (8:50)

I think it's interesting and I want to make one more point on this before you shut it down.

Philip (8:55)

I'm not shutting it down.

Camille (8:56)

I think it's interesting because when I look back on myself as a customer, when I look at like the Goyard wallet was such a brilliant brand move because Goyard created a wallet that basically went viral because it was more expensive than the average wallet. But it was at a gateway price point that allowed people to access the Goyard universe made sense. And it made sense. It's difficult for Louis Vuitton's iconic product is leather goods. So it is their wallets and their purses and their luggage. Right. So for that reason, if Louis Vuitton wants to replicate a proven strategy that works, luxury makeup is proven to work, like, I agree with you, to like, knock them on the chocolates. But even at the chocolate price point, when I think about it, people who are, who are tourists to New York City, you're going to New York City, you're from a small town in Europe, you're from a small town in America, and, and you're on Fifth Avenue and you go into this incredible Louis Vuitton store that's, it's literally. They put so much money in it so that it's like a museum. People want to leave with a souvenir. And it allows people to leave that Louis Vuitton brand universe. It keeps that brand feeling, that brand desire alive because these people that are from small towns can take a piece of that home with them. And that souvenir ship is interesting when your brand gets to that brand as religion status.

Philip (10:17)

Okay, well, we can debate it all day long. I don't think their brand is a religion anymore. I think their brand is a cult that's dying. I think they're selling themselves off. I think, I think that the, the movement in society is to stop paying for useless things with a sticker stuck on it. That sounds like a decision to make, but I'm not going to order a Louis Vuitton $85. You're not the customer, but neither is somebody from a small town.

Camille (10:39)

Oh, I disagree.

Philip (10:40)

No, because they usually have money. Like, why would you buy chocolates for $200 where you can buy something actually decent for, for $200?

Camille (10:47)

Because it's a big deal for people.

Philip (10:49)

To go to, but the brand has to mean something. And as soon as you start selling tons of trinkets, the brand starts to mean less.

Camille (10:55)

But I think that's what's interesting about the Louis Vuitton strategy. Look, I really ripped them, right, like, for being in malls in like, middle America and how the brand has changed. But what I've realized in all of this is the brand means a lot to people who are coming up into wealth. And Louis Vuitton isn't focused on impressing you anymore.

Philip (11:13)

I don't think it means a lot to people coming up into wealth. I think it means a lot to people who will never see wealth. And so you see A lot of people who don't have money buying stupid things.

Camille (11:23)

That's another way of looking at it.

Philip (11:24)

People who are coming into wealth know where value is now, and it's not in Louis Vuitton.

Camille (11:29)

Better way of saying it. People who are coming into discretionary income.

Philip (11:33)

Yeah, they're wasting money just like they wasted money on $500 sneakers in some cases or anyhow, we're moving into a recession type era. Everybody will do whatever they can to make as much money as possible to survive. And so what we, our clients need to focus on is how are they going to survive? And they have to be more interesting.

Camille (11:50)

Connor was saying that the reason that Louis Vuitton's chocolate was intelligent was that it tapped into this, like, creator reviewing economy. So because it's cheap enough, people will buy it will go back to their hotel room, whatever, and they will, like, review the experience. And it's no different than like the Christmas calendars.

Philip (12:09)

That makes sense to me because that is an interesting strategy because if you look at the landscape of how you get eyeballs, there's a bunch of influencers that want to make content that seems kind of interesting. People will watch a review of Louis Vuitton chocolate. Chocolate, right. So that's getting eyeballs on it.

Camille (12:25)

But it's like simple, extreme.

Philip (12:26)

It might be. It might damage the brand in the long run, but it does get attention in sales.

Camille (12:30)

Well, this is literally the video I did yesterday where I talked about the difference between Kendall Jenner just launched like a mini tequila bottle and whereas Hailey Bieber launched that, like, remember the saucer? I talked about that stuck to the mirror and like how dumb of a launch that was. And she tried to make it like the phone case. When a brand wants to go viral, a number one indicator is portability, right? So for Louis Vuitton to have makeup that like, women, like, talk about buying that, like this small splurge. And women are like, very much like pack, you know, pack creatures. Like, what makeup do you use? You know, what is that on your eyes? Love that color. It has that portability, that virality feature that allows Louis Vuitton to be coming up in more conversations, which to a public company is all they care about. So from a strategy, the strategy has to be tied to the business in question.

Philip (13:19)

All right, let's move on. One of your most famous videos was Marketing is Storytelling. We've talked about it a lot, but what I wanted to chat with you today about is how storytelling. People are playing lip service to it, but they don't really Understand the art of storytelling and, and how that's affecting media, tv, movies and branding right now. What are your thoughts?

Camille (13:40)

Marketing and storytelling is a great thing for us to retouch on because it's what most business owners get wrong. And your socials aren't working because you're not communicating to the story arc of your customer. Right. And that's why movies suck today. That's why your social suck. That's why you feel like these brands that you once connected to are no longer communicating to you because they've missed the plot. In that your customer is the hero, you are the guide, and everything that you should be doing is providing them so much value that you're capturing their attention. So we'll get to the movie part in a second.

Philip (14:15)

I feel people now think that storytelling means just saying everything positive and that tells a story. And it ignores the fact that stories are based on kind of skepticism. Like there's a path that is anticipated to be easy or hopeful and then the hero gets to it and experiences an obstacle and then you want to see them struggle through it. And when storytelling is being put into marketing, it seems overly positive or fake positive. Whereas I think people want to see the story of the entrepreneur overcoming something and buying into why I should go.

Camille (14:47)

To their store is actually what like 99% of business owners miss. And it's, it's so fundamentally simple. Like yesterday I was doing with one of my cohort members. I we do a one on one in week four and I did my one on one with her and she was asking me for feedback on one of her posts and she said that she had just done it for me because she was like, she's a realtor in Providence, Rhode island and her goal is she really. I was saying like, you guys have to be like local experts. Like if you're just saying what everyone else is saying, you're not going to break through the algorithm. So she does this swipe through post and the first post, the first of the swipes is like, are you planning to move to Providence, Rhode Island? I'm like, awesome. But then the next slide was a frickin ad. It was like, I am the best at buying and selling in this area. Next slide. If you're thinking about moving from coast.

Philip (15:35)

To coast, you know what the next slide should be? 5 danger points. You need to know before you move. Now the, the reptile brain goes, okay, let's make sure.

Camille (15:43)

Love that first slide. Yeah, like, okay, I am thinking about going there. What are the five best restaurants? Is This a coffee culture. What's the weather like?

Philip (15:49)

Go with danger points first. Because stories like to see obstacles, looming obstacles, because then you create a path through them.

Camille (15:59)

But you can also test you're right. And you're so advanced in how you communicate this. But, like, just the simple fact that most people default to, I'm gonna sell to you. Yeah, opposed to. And. And that was really her core point.

Philip (16:11)

So it's sales masquerading as a story. It's not interesting.

Camille (16:15)

There's no so what? There's no reason to click on it. And then most people are frustrated because they're not growing enough. They're like, where are the followers? I'm like, do you know how much work you have to do for someone to feel that you are worth seeing multiple times a day when they open up their socials? Like, do you know how much value you have to give away? And then the next question is, what do you want? Right? Like, unless you fundamentally really want and you can service a ton more sales. Because that's the other issue is, like, most people want the followers without understanding the time restriction that you have to put on yourself. Also that you have to fucking say something interesting. You gotta be controversial.

Philip (16:52)

For example, I always go back to the coffee shop. But if your coffee shop swipe through is, here's my latte, here's this. This is what we do. Everybody's happy, employees smiling. Not interesting. But if you show your store being kind of broke down and dirty and then cleaning it up and then making a community and selecting furniture, here's what.

Camille (17:12)

I struggled with, right?

Philip (17:13)

And overcoming.

Camille (17:13)

Here's what I've Learned in the 25 years I've been running a coffee shop.

Philip (17:16)

For the first two weeks, it's been empty, right? Like, you know, but then people will want to follow you and see you on your success arc.

Camille (17:22)

People want stories, and they. And they want to. And they. And that's the other thing, too, is like, they want stories, but they also want different. And that's the idea of if I can push you. The word controversy exists on a spectrum, and you have to at least be prepared to be on the, like, the most basic end of that spectrum, which is at least saying something interesting, like talking about your business. Struggling is controversial to most people, and they don't even want to share what they've struggled through. And I'm like, if you're not, then you're not in the game. Then you're not serious. Because if you're not prepared to share vulnerability or share what you've been through and what you've learned and why you take different takes. You're actually not meant to have a bunch of followers and go viral.

Philip (18:02)

It's interesting to examine that definition of controversy because people say I don't want to be controversial, meaning I don't want to be judged. That's really what they're saying. And your point about this was my biggest struggle starting a business. You're scared of being judged, but actually people want to judge you and they'll follow you based on how they judge you and how you're dealing with things. Because the mark of character is how we make decisions in times of crisis.

Camille (18:27)

Yes, right.

Philip (18:27)

And people will judge you. So you need to let them see your kind of mini or micro crisis because then they can see into your character and then want to follow you.

Camille (18:35)

There's such a delusion that exists within business founders. You know, when I think about mid a squares, you know, like, they're really killing it on LinkedIn. And the reason why they killed it on LinkedIn is purely because they shared vulnerability. Like, they talked about how long they didn't make a profit for. They talked about how much stress and anxiety they underwent by like over leveraging themselves and showing up with a smile on their face when they were panicking. And people talk about a mid a square is like, they talk about uber, like loosely. Like they throw it around as, like, as an, as a metaphor. But they don't understand what it took to get there and they're not prepared to match that level of storytelling.

Philip (19:13)

Think of it in terms of the people that you value or you like to hang around. There are the people who kind of pretend everything is good all the time and they're always being flashy and pretending things. And then there's the people who are genuine, unique. They listen to your, you know, that's how you want your brand to grow into. That person who is genuine, authentic, listens to you and also shares its own vulnerabilities. Nobody wants to be around that person who's walking around pretending to be rich when they're not rich, pretending everything is amazing.

Camille (19:39)

Well, people don't care about that. Everything's amazing because that's not real life. And there's so much of that not real life on social media. That that's a big breakthrough I had yesterday is, I think about all these business owners that look to these other competitors and they use that as an excuse to not do what we're telling them to do. But what they're missing is that although their Message is vanilla and it's not hyper controversial. They've been at it for 10 years. So there's causation versus correlation. Right. And people who've been creating content for a long time can get by with having strong engagement and followers without needing to like, really catapult themselves because they had an edge. Like they leaned into socials when it was the most uncomfortable. It's not difficult now to put yourself on camera and put yourself online. That's table stakes. And if you want to be growing and you want to be more successful, you have to push the boundaries and say the things that they won't say because all of the people in your community are already looking to them and receiving that vanilla message.

Philip (20:42)

So that's a great point. I want to tell a story about a leadership situation that I failed in. And I think it's relevant to our listeners who are entrepreneurs, business owners, or people who are overwhelmed. And it's back when I was doing my officer training in the military. It was the end of this very intensive training and I was selected as the top candidate. So I had this blown up image of myself because I was amongst 100 or so candidates. But then we broke into sections of 10 men units and there was a giant competition that the whole base was watching to see. And so because I was the, you know, I. I was supposed to win. And this competition was out in the east coast in these horrible forests and swamps. We had to do all these obstacle courses and we had to go through this lake that was like chest deep, like a kilometer and a half walking through it with a rucksack. And I, as the leader, got in front of my nine people following me who are working with us, and we were so pumped to win and we were all super fit. But so when we get into the water, I'm in the front and I'm like just being that leader. It's like, let's go, let's go. And I'm just driving the body pushing through, and they're all following me and the guys behind me, I'm looking back, they're like, they're right there. I'm like, okay. And I'm like, okay, we got to go faster. And so I'm pushing and pushing and pushing. And then at some point somebody goes, you want me to go in front? And I was, I was, I lost sight of the overall mission. And I was like, no, I got, I got it. I'm the leader. I'm the, I'm the guy. And I kept pushing through the water and when we got out of the water, what I realized is I was breaking the water and the people behind me were in a bit of a draft current. They were just jumping up and down and bobbing behind me. And then the last 2km we had to run, I was dead and I couldn't finish the race. And the other team started passing us because I wouldn't share the load. And now if I had allowed somebody to come up to the front and break the water and rotate back right, I wouldn't have blown out. And I think a lot of founders are in danger of that. They work too hard, they do everything. They won't hand over a little bit of reins to somebody who can take the load when it comes to social media, sales, managing, everything. And I remember just being humiliated. My team was supposed to win and we came like 8th and it was entirely because I couldn't. I was so done because I just powered through a kilometer and a half of breaking water and didn't share the load. I never forgot that message. When it comes to sharing the load. When you're running a business and you're just gonna burn out, I think a lot of our clients are close to that totally.

Camille (23:05)

And especially when it comes to wanting to scale, you know, like on the social media, like there needs to be a reason why you're doing something. And I think that's an aside point to what you're talking about is people understand that socials are table stakes, but they're not asking the question as why, like, why are you doing socials? What is your aim? What is your goal? I've got a story. One of my good friends is a very well known, injectable doctor and her and I were having a conversation and, you know, I'm kind of that token friend where like all my friends that are business owners, like when we're together, they get to like bounce ideas off of me because I do what's, you know, the most egoic and helpful for their business from a positioning standpoint. And we got into a bit of an esoteric conversation because I'm like, you say you want more, but you also tell me how much you love, how much time you get to spend with your friends and how the great balance you have at your clinic and that you get to drop your son off at school every single day. And if you want more, you want more followers, you want to be posting more on socials, something's got to give and what are you prepared to sacrifice? And you don't want to be in the clinic for more hours. Like you're paid very well, you're happy with the workload. And so what is it that you want?

Philip (24:20)

Well it's also there's like when we work scaling businesses and we get them to do timesheets for a week or two weeks, you actually realize they say they want to scale to 10 or $20 million revenue but they're not using their time like somebody who wants to scale. They think they watch a couple videos, hire a couple of mediocre people and they're going to do it. It's like no, you have to soccer. You can't be on the golf course three to four times a week. You can't be on your phone. You have to put the time in.

Camille (24:44)

You're taking useless meetings that go for two and a half hours when it you're getting all of the impact 30 minutes in like you need to. And that's the thing is anything that you want comes with a sacrifice. Are you prepared for the sacrifice and do you want the sacrifice less than you want this goal that you're trying to work towards?

Philip (25:02)

I wish I could have more conversations with people who are there because there's such a path out of it but because of how hard they work to get there, they're just unable to see it or get themselves to that next path and so they're just banging themselves into a wall.

Camille (25:15)

I love that. I got one more topic here that.

Philip (25:17)

I want to talk about.

Camille (25:18)

So I want to talk about Abercrombie. So Abercrombie and Fitch is playing ball. They've scored a multi year deal as NFL's first ever official fashion partner. They're working with players to co design limited edition apparel and they are featuring wide receivers including T. Higgins and Aman Ra St Brown in a national ad campaign. And the whole point for this is the nearly half of the elephant NFL fans are everyday lifestyle wear kind of target customers and the NFL female base is growing so rapidly that it and basically because of Taylor Swift. Right? Like Taylor Swift dating Travis Kelce has introduced. There's always a ton of women watching with their husbands, boyfriends, family, dads or liking the sport. And then now with Taylor Swift it's a really interesting move for Abercrombie to sponsor a league based on that secondary kind of order of thinking of like people are expecting Nike, they're not expecting the lifestyle mall cheap fast fashion brand.

Philip (26:27)

Two takeaways there. One, the law of unintended consequences is often missed but it's good to calculate when you're thinking strategically Bringing Taylor Swift in with her population and having some controversy. If people get exposed to high quality product, they'll like it. Often people just don't get exposed to it. So that brought people into high quality product. The NFL is high quality sports. So that's fascinating. And I also think. I don't know how Abercrombie is going to do it, but I would kind of try to create different types of uniforms that Abercrombie represents for different types of players and teams. You know what I mean? To. Because people want to differentiate themselves from each other. Like I'm this wide receiver. Right. Or I'm that. You know what I mean? You could kind of play with that so you can signal to people based on what they're wearing. Because people like to wear NFL shirts. But if I wear the wide receivers jerseys, make it to make it a little different style than another team's player.

Camille (27:22)

You're missing the point. The reason why Abercrombie is sponsoring this is not to become sportswear. It's because Abercrombie's original prep wear. This is for the fans.

Philip (27:31)

Yeah. No, that's what I'm saying.

Camille (27:32)

The jersey.

Philip (27:33)

I'm not missing the point. I'm not saying the jersey. I'm saying take the prep wear and make it a version of a jersey. But still is stylish prep wear. So that you could. You could see, like, there should be a style to the one wide receiver that they like that allows it to be differentiated in their prep wear than another. Because people like to.

Camille (27:51)

They're designing lines, but they're designing lifestyle lines. This is the reason why this is brilliant is that Abercrombie is going back to its prep roots. Like all of the ads were like people in like these college stands, like, cheering on these sports.

Philip (28:05)

I got that. But what I'm saying, I understand that concept is easy. I'm making prep wear and I'm paying people to say that they're wearing it. What I'm saying is make it sports is tribalism. People love to fight against each other. Or people love this running back versus that running back make a way to have teams like. That's what I think would be most interesting if Abercrombie could do it. It's a good move to get into the prep and casual wear from NFL fans. But if they're going to sponsor people, I think there should be some sort of angle to certain athletes make camps. Anyhow, that's just my thinking, to get more engagement.

Camille (28:40)

The reason why I like what Abercrombie is doing is Abercrombie really lost its way. It was a struggling and fledgling brand. It's going back to its roots and its deep. It's being disruptive by doing things that haven't been done before in a way that connects to its brand. Like this is better than Skims proved that female, strong female brands can do successful in male dominated sports with like the NBA sponsorship and they've also done sponsorships with the NFL. Abercrombie's owning the test space that Skims did and is leaning in by doing something that has never been done but connects to their brand.

Philip (29:18)

It's interesting that a luxury brand isn't doing it because the players love luxury brands. That would be interesting for Louis Vuitton to get into.

Camille (29:24)

So Cartier has sponsored Joe Burrow and what these luxury brands are doing, which is a really interesting take from that what you just said. Male accessories are blowing up. Male accessories is the fastest growing luxury category in market. Instead of sponsoring the league, they're doing individualized players because the fans of the players are now choosing to go and buy Cartier sunglasses or a Van Cleef bracelet or a Bottega tote for work. Men are spending so much money in clothing and luxury accessories.

Philip (29:58)

Yes. We are on the arc of males moving more into vanity, as you saw in the 17th century when they were wearing their stock. You know, usually it's, it's, it's on the decline of an empire. But you know, when you. There's definitely a trend to seeing men spending way more on vanity.

Camille (30:13)

But what's interesting about it, I don't disagree with you because there is like the pieces, like $800 Italian shirts, you know, Brioni or Japanese jeans are blowing up in the male category. $1,200 Japanese jeans, loafers, cashmere zips. What's interesting though is male workwear was always expensive because it was suits at the high end. At the high end. But before COVID people started ditching suits for more lifestyle wear and then Covid really like tipped it off. But men, because they tend to work in more office based settings actually quite care about the way that they show up. And they're just, they're changing their spend category away from suits to like luxury lifestyle wear, which is interesting.

Philip (30:59)

Again, what's interesting to me is the reason why suits were so expensive in the day is the level of tailoring.

Camille (31:04)

Yeah.

Philip (31:05)

And fabric to make a beautiful three piece suit. Right. Whereas some of the luxury loungewear is priced at the same point but doesn't take the same work. So it's a big, it's a good gig for the clothing manufacturers because it's nowhere near the same kind of work to make a good three piece suit.

Camille (31:22)

And it's so copy paste. Right. Like, men aren't really showing their personality in the same way. They'll see a guy that's wearing J Brand jeans and they'll go and buy that same cut in the three colors, which is dark, medium, light. Right. And even when you think about clothing colors, it's really neutrals. Right. Like, you're not really seeing a ton of men express themselves through a wider range of colors. So it's a better category than female fashion.

Philip (31:48)

You know, in terms of clothing in the office or what happens, you know, the three piece suit was exquisite, but it did restrict movement. It wasn't the most comfortable. It did require high levels of air conditioning in the summer, which made the rest of the office uncomfortable. But so I like the move into more casual business elegance. It's just we always have to be on guard for not being ripped off by overpriced stuff that's just made in a factory in China.

Camille (32:12)

I agree. I think for men, men are more performative. So for them, showing up like looking apart allows them to exude more of their confidence, whereas the pendulum swing for women has been, look how sporty we are, look how athletic we are. And there's been kind of a more of a move to show how much women prioritize fitness with balancing all of the other things that are expected of females. But I'm now feeling leggings. The category of leggings is down 50%. And you're starting to see now that pendulum swinging back with women where we're now trending, following men. I think in five years it'll be the same of more of those luxury staple basics, not decked out in brands, but more of that like Brioni, Brunello Cucinelli or Laura Piano feel. But for a woman's line, I'm ready for it. I'm over leggings.

Philip (33:00)

What I see is high quality fabrics and simple clothing choices on performers. And the thing is, Loro Piana can be Laura Piana all day long, but you can take the same fabric and with a machine, recreate the design. Like, what can Loro Piana do that somebody else can't do when they spend half a million dollars on a, on a textile company? So I see a move towards not to less brand focus. Yeah, Like, I would wear just pure organic cotton and linen that's just cut properly. I don't need a brand on it, actually. I want to be anti brand in. In my clothes, but I want my luxury to be in. I want my luxury to be in the fabric.

Camille (33:39)

Yeah, I hear you all the way.

Philip (33:41)

So interesting trend. I have to go.

Camille (33:43)

Philip has to go get a laser treatment, which leads me to explain we're going to be going back to Korea in November, and I'm planning to put together a kind of a woman's trip to Korea and maybe like late January. So if anyone is listening to this, is obsessed with aesthetics and beauty and might be interested in that. I haven't marketed yet on my socials, but I am planting some seeds to getting that going, so if you'd be interested, let me know.

Philip (34:10)

Camille's also starting a cohort in October for focused on Beauty Med Spa Beauty. If you want to be one of the few people that are allowed into her cohort, message her so you can participate in something that is truly exceptional in terms of the results that you get out of the cohorts you work with in terms of value and just pleasure. So if you're into that, DM her. And I don't know if I'm going to Korea with you guys, but we'll see.

Camille (34:34)

Goodbye, everybody.