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The Art of the Brand
Why Playing It Safe Is Killing Your Brand — Lessons from White Lotus and Four Seasons
01:19:35
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- [00:00]
A
People don't want to be sold to, but they do want to buy. It's such a pattern disruptor and an indirect sale, but it works so strongly because you're almost not expecting it as a consumer. So you don't feel sold to, but you do want to buy.
- [00:17]
B
This is just pure gold in terms of elevating a brand because you know that people aren't going to associate the story with your location. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand.
- [00:27]
A
What a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand. All right, everybody, welcome back to Art of the Brand. Got so much to cover.
- [00:42]
B
Let's do it.
- [00:43]
A
So today's topics are going to include. We're going to talk about White Lotus Season 3 is out. Wonderful, huge branding moment there for us to unpack. Two, I want to talk about the Jacme latest fashion show in London, how they went back to the iPhone. And I think there's something really relevant to unpack there with what's happening with Apple and tech. We're going to talk about Legacy, that book I just finished, which I cannot recommend enough to brand owners to anyone in branding. I just, I love a book you recommended actually to me years ago was range and where you can kind of take things from other places to create a stronger synaptic connection. And to me, Legacy was exactly that. So I want to touch on that with you. We're gonna do Hot or Not. Let's talk about White Lotus season three. It's out. The third episode launched last night, which we did not watch. And so far I think this is the best season yet. But I don't want to jinx it.
- [01:40]
B
The reason why we're talking about it is because it's, I think, an exceptional. We think it's an exceptional way that the Four Seasons is expanding its brand through the use of more traditional media, but in an untraditional way.
- [01:54]
A
Yeah, it's. To me, it's really mind blowing that the Four Seasons allowed White Lotus to become kind of this unofficial brand partnership because it's kind of like if, you know, you know, like White Lotus isn't going over, over the top in telling you that it's the Four Seasons properties, but it's become kind of the unofficial brand partner of every single season takes place at a different four Seasons location.
- [02:22]
B
It's not unbelievable. For me, it's just, it's just surprising in that most marketing departments are so risk adverse that they wouldn't allow this. And for anybody who doesn't know, White Lotus is this Kind of provocative new series that's come out that is situated on luxury hotels in amazing locations throughout the world. And people are killed in there. There's lots of scandals. The hotel staff can be ridiculous or dysfunctional, but it's an entertaining microscope onto luxury living gone wrong, kind of. And I think your point is that most brands wouldn't allow their property to be known to be the showcase of such a storytelling. But it's really working out because at.
- [03:09]
A
Its core, White Lotus is making fun of high net worth individuals. Like what that, like the kind of. That zeitgeist, that culture of. In every single season, it breaks it down in a different way. Like the dysfunction of families, the dysfunction of friendships, the dysfunction of couples. Like every relationship is actually an analysis of a mockery, almost a parody of modern life, of wealthy modern life, of successful modern life.
- [03:38]
B
I want to break down with you why I think it's amazing because you have to be intelligent to understand why it works so well. And I think too many marketing and branding decisions are very linear and one dimensional. Oh, we can't have this because it looks bad. As opposed to understanding that the client base of the Four Seasons just wants to go to the best places in the world. They never think they're one of those people on the show. So it's indirectly, it's really drawing people to Four Seasons resorts because it's the chosen location to make a parody of luxury lifestyle. But at a deeper level, what it's telling people is that's where you go for luxury lifestyle.
- [04:17]
A
I actually don't think initially was what it's become for the Four Seasons because recently the Maui. So the season one happens at the Wailea. Yeah, one of the original Four Seasons properties. So one of the. I, I can't recommend this book enough. Isadore Sharp's autobiography, the founder of the Four Seasons, he talks about how that Hawaii property was really an anchor property for their brand because they entered into the Hawaiian market in the 70s. Like really one kind of. Especially for, like for luxury travel. Because it. Hawaii had become iconic in the 60s from a traveling perspective for American travelers. But for the rest of the world was really when the Four Seasons kind of put Wailea on the map. And I think that initially they had selected kind of that Maui Four Seasons property. Cause it was like an if, you know, you know, like subtle kind of. I think Mike White was like, that's like a perfect place to do this. But recently the Maui property has actually branded that restaurant where so much happens in season one as the White Lotus Restaurant. And I think that them picking the Thailand property in Koh Samui and the Italy because there was like two or three years between season one and season two. And I think that the Four Seasons realized how much this improved their bookings and didn't negatively impact their brand image that they've said this is such a great subtle way to market our properties. Because literally the moment we were like all of season two, all I was looking at was like, holy, this is like the nicest property I'm dying to go to. This Sicilian Italian oasis that is the Four Seasons. I don't think they anticipated it being that good for the brand.
- [06:05]
B
No, because it is essentially it's eight episodes an hour long. Showcasing. Yeah, like showcasing how amazing your property is under the premise of rich ridiculous people come here. Right. And so it just makes people love the properties. To me, what I would say to marketing departments or CEOs who are, who are risk averse, remember that taking the piss out of yourself, which is a British term, generally works with, with your customer. Like if you take yourself too seriously, nobody takes you seriously.
- [06:35]
A
But if you're exceptional.
- [06:36]
B
Yeah.
- [06:37]
A
And I think that's a really important aspect, is that the Four Seasons can have this juxtaposition of the White Lotus because they offer a brand promise and they keep their brand promise. Like they represent ultimate luxury. So if the four. If the White Lotus is trying to represent ultimate luxury properties, what a strong brand alignment it is because the service, the staff, what happens on site is impossibly never to happen because they keep their bar of experience, hospitality so high consistently. This couldn't be done, I think, at the Shangri La or the Ritz Carlton where service can so greatly vary because they would feel like there is a potential downside for their brand. Do you agree?
- [07:25]
B
Well, I think what you're saying, like the Ritz Carlton would, would have been smart to do something like this. But I think that if you have a nagging doubt in your mind that you are what's being represented there, then you wouldn't do it. Right. And the solidness of the Four Seasons is they're so certain about their level of service that they just kind of shrug off a TV show that makes fun of a hotel that doesn't meet their standard, but it's showcasing their property. And so the thing is, you're seeing an amazing property and Four Seasons has an amazing consistency, so it doesn't stop you from booking.
- [07:59]
A
The takeaway is that I actually listened to this great video the other day and it was by the future. And he says people don't want to be sold to, but they do want to buy. And I think this is really what you can learn with this White Lotus partnership with the Four Seasons is that people don't want to be sold to. It's not an ad, but by virtue of it being something that you don't, it's almost like a pattern disruptor. Like you don't expect, you know, the Four Seasons to be involved. It's now been multiple seasons where this backdrop from this TV show is just absolutely exceptional. The entire show takes place on property and that it's genuinely that fantastic to stay at. Meaning, like they didn't, you know, like when they do some movies and some TV shows, they'll like remodel, you know, like they'll like so.
- [08:52]
B
So it's not immediately recognizable.
- [08:54]
A
Like they'll change it. Like they did that in suits because like we know that they shot in suits and like all the buildings they show, like they're completely unrecognizable, like the boardrooms and stuff, because we're in them all the time. Being working in Toronto now because they didn't change it. It's like it's such a, it's such a pattern disruptor and an indirect sale, but it works so strongly because you're almost not expecting it as a consumer. So you don't feel sold to, but you do want to buy.
- [09:18]
B
So it's a great lesson for people, maybe in the extreme because I was surprised that Four Season wasn't behind it. It's such a brilliant marketing campaign.
- [09:27]
A
Well, you actually said this has been really high up with the Four Seasons as you were like you. This is actually brilliant. If you guys were behind, you asked them if they were behind it because you were like, this would have been so brilliant for you to fund because of what it does for your brand.
- [09:41]
B
But because you take, you take the extreme of the human psychology that goes to this location, you use your, your, your location to platform it and then you just. Content has to be entertaining in today's world. So like you said, people want to be sold to. Nobody cares about seeing housekeeping staff put nice sheets on a hotel chocolate on a hotel commercial. Right? But this is just, this is just pure gold in terms of elevating a brand because you know that people aren't going to associate the story with your location.
- [10:12]
A
And it's intelligent because they didn't over control it. And that's like what so many brands want to do is like they want to say that, see that very clear roi they want to like make sure that they over control to the point where they desensitize the good idea. And that's why I use the word unbelievable is so much of our jobs are trying to convince good ideas that get watered down to the point where it no longer resembles what made the idea good in the first place. And when White Lotus either approached the four seasons or the four seasons realized and it's become kind of a JV after the fact, you don't. They're not controlling the narrative. And because the show is good on its own and it happens to take place at the four seasons, I'm when I'm thinking of booking somewhere to go that's exotic throughout the world. I'm now thinking about the properties that I spent nine episodes watching for like week over week for the last five years.
- [11:07]
B
Like and this is something I want people to consider because you have a very risk averse world where there's all these people who have come from business schools and they tell you why you can't do something, why you can't do something. And having an intelligent set of eyes look at it. Reward comes from risk and there's always unintended consequences that can go negative or positive. And that's why good strategic thinking matters in the case of White Lotus by them taking a risk in doing this, which I didn't think was a high risk but a lot of people would have thought was a high risk. Now that we're in season three, it gets back to your original point. The money behind the show has dramatically increased from production level. The production quality has gone through the roof. So now you're seeing nine episodes. But the cinematography and filmmaking is way better than the first series. So it's actually making every new property look better. The lighting, the cuts.
- [12:00]
A
It's so funny because I just want to touch on this to not beat this down. The risk comes because you don't have 2020 because they don't have hindsight, right. And like you actually they become so clouded like they can't see anything. Right. And after the fact so much of what we see the piece on hindsight, right. Like where. Where I think this is relevant is when you see the script and we can use the point where I just always saw the script but you can't see where the three seasons are going to go. And why that's relevant is so much of what business owners get pitched or what marketing. Whether you're pitching this to clients or you're having this pitch to you. You're overanalyzing something opposed to having kind of that OODA loop response of orientation. Observe, decide and act. And when you're, when you can see, like as a consumer, I'm not associating the White Lotus with the four Seasons other than the best parts of that TV show, but you have so many naysayers whose job is literally to shut down ideas because of the potential fear that may exist. And this entire show is built around those ideas that break through the noise. So if your job or if you're realizing that you're shutting down ideas where they. There's a probably a very low or moderate, moderate risk that it could be misinterpreted or misinterpreted by people that truly aren't your customer is where you need to kind of have that wake up because you're never going to break through if it's mediocre.
- [13:39]
B
But it's also just rational thinking and our world has actually become irrational by people whose job it is to tell you don't do that, it'll offend somebody, don't do that. It could be this, don't do that. Because rationally I think if you sat down with 10 objective critical thinkers, there'd be very little risk of it. But, but what happens within organizations is they get kind of in their own bubble and they talk themselves out of opportunities because they're scared of being criticized or scared of they overvalue negative publicity potential negative publicity over long term upsides.
- [14:11]
A
Well, I've got a great story about this and the reason why I'm bringing this up is if you don't feel like this is connected to your experience or your worldview, God bless you. Because this is really like, I'd say the biggest problem right now in the industry is that we're all chasing after these like these breakout campaigns that are brilliant that people are talking about but no one is prepared to put themselves in a vulnerable position to see how the market responds. And this I got this perfect example. Some friends of ours who also run an agency responded to something that I'd put out and they're like, you're not going to believe it. You know, we just signed insert massive burger chain that you've all heard of. And we were so fired up, we were stoked. We love this brand and the person like we've had to, we've had to reshoot creatives for infeed social media eight times. And like the person that's running their social media department doesn't even have social media and they Any idea, like everything that we put into the RFP to get the job is being like completely thrown out now that we have the job. Because every idea just needs to be like overly perfect. They've got food models coming in. The food doesn't even look like the real food because they just want it to be this version. And then that stuff that goes out doesn't perform. And then they're criticizing the agency and it's just this stupid loop.
- [15:35]
B
There's such a good business model there. And whether you love or hate Elon Musk, there is something to stripping away 50 to 80% of the people who get in the way of progress. And so what happens? A company gets bigger. The owner is like, okay, yeah, we got to hire this person. Yeah, we got to hire strategic relationship manager, this. And now you have eight people who are all vying for managerial influence, trying to get themselves into a position of impacting the business and you get nothing done. Right. And I was. When you guys think of your businesses that you support or the businesses that you own, this White Lotus framework is interesting. Think of something you can overlap over your product that has an interesting story. And so it's not sales, but your product is there and the message is there, but overlap. A really cool story, one that either is self deprecating or funny or serious. But it's an interesting model that I think we'll see in the future. And if I was to give, we were talking about iPhone writing in all the contracts that no villain can have an iPhone, right? And I was just thinking like that's trying to over control things. Like if I was Android right now or something, I would make a show about why villains use Androids. You know, like I would just do something that tells a story.
- [16:50]
A
Expand on this. Is this a real thing or is this a conspiracy?
- [16:54]
B
Well, when we were talking about it, everybody seemed to believe that whenever you watch a movie, watch a movie, you'll see that, you'll see iPhones in the hands of the heroes. But every villain or bad person, even if it's the cheating husband, has an Android and iPhone has managed to get that into a lot of contracts. And it just, it's a way of trying to protect your brand. But in a way, to me, that's unauthentic because bad people or villains will use iPhones maybe for a reason, that it has better data security. Right? So that, that's kind of a self serving thing. They're trying to make themselves look better. But I, if that was the case, if I was Android, I would try to make a series of commercials about making fun of Apple, doing that and saying why people use their phones.
- [17:31]
A
I think that that is a really brilliant TikTok conspiracy and I definitely want to do some more research on that, however, because I do remember you like randomly pointing out on the White Lotus last week, you're like, see Samsung? And I'm like, what are you talking? But I don't think you shared me the video.
- [17:46]
B
But people, people have actually said that you can watch movies and figure out who the bad person is before the end of the movie by what phones they're using.
- [17:54]
A
CK that's really interesting. My take on it. Really interesting. Guys, tell us what you think because that's crazy if that's true. But what I think is Samsung to me is like doubling down on like B or C level advertising. So I find that they're doing, they're like doing these like events with models like Brooks Nader, this big Sports Illustrated model, did this like Samsung event where all these like nerdy gamer guys like showed up to meet this like Sports Illustrated model and she does like these videos with her boyfriend who's like a Dancing with the Stars instructor. And like they're breaking up through a Samsung text and I find like they're doing all of this. Like, it, it's good. But like, who's your audience marketing? And that's why when I saw the Samsung ad in the White Lotus, like the, the product placement, I was more like, this is Samsung's really doing a big push right now and they're doing it in a way where it's not bad. Like, I'm not criticizing it, it's just, it's kind of like without. It just doesn't have that extra oomph. Like they're just paying for a model to show up at a Sports Illustrated event or they're like just paying for placement in the White Lotus. Like they're just trying to do kind of that more Coke model of like be everywhere and the business will come opposed to how much opportunity there is to take from Apple right now that they could be doing, I think a way better job with not much more effort.
- [19:19]
B
It's interesting from a strategy perspective, but season three is definitely filmed at a much higher level of production quality.
- [19:25]
A
Oh yeah.
- [19:25]
B
Like the camera angles, the scenes, and it's actually amplifying the four seasons while also making the season better.
- [19:33]
A
I really respect your really clean wrap up there. I've just got like one more point.
- [19:36]
B
Okay.
- [19:37]
A
Like, imagine if, if Samsung could have paid even like let's say a huge amount of money, a million dollars more to have written into the script. Them using like the Samsung AI, like note taker or like where I'm paying for.
- [19:51]
B
They should write into the script a wealthy person screaming at hey, Siri, you know what I mean? And then somebody using like the Google.
- [19:58]
A
Assistant who's this business owner and he's like trying to like, he's trying to.
- [20:03]
B
Make a call quickly.
- [20:04]
A
Like, to me, like, that's where my brain goes. And like, just like having Patrick Schwarzenegger, like full Samsung shot, opposed to like using or like one of the three girls, like having them edit themselves, like by using the like updated editing software, like removing the chick out of the background and like posting it on socials. Like, I just feel like there's space to pay a lot more money for it to like disproportionately impact Samsung sales.
- [20:32]
B
Gotcha.
- [20:33]
A
Next to. On the topic of phones, so Jacme, a brand we've talked about quite a bit, is it really if. If there's a category of like, brands that exhaust me and stress me out, like, jack me is top of the list because they are just doing such a great job in their execution to the point where like, I can't keep up. So their Paris fashion show, which was a month ago, they did the entire fashion shoot, was shot on the latest iPhone. Like the elevators, the catwalk, every single thing was shot and documented live. They even had like robotic, like almost like these road arms that like moved the phone so that it like better captured, like it stabilized better the models, et cetera. But for the London fashion week, they actually brought back the iPhone 4 for like selfies so that you could have more of like a vintage look for photos. And why I think this is interesting is this is also coming at a time where you're having a lot of Gen Zs actually say that the iPhone 13 is better than the iPhone 15 because the new phone, it has a grayness to the color quality of the photos. And the iPhone 13 presented a better photo because it was more color rich than having more of these like grayscale colors.
- [21:57]
B
Definitely vintage. And vibe is back. I think there's been too much change and people are now starting to recognize that new isn't good in and of itself. But it's funny that the iPhone 4 has become the Polaroid for my generation. Like, you know what I mean? Like, in the past you would give people polaroids to run around and take pictures of and that was cool. But now it's the iPhone4, which I think that's funny.
- [22:18]
A
It's crazy. I like to think, like, I mean, I feel like I'm officially at that age where I'm like, whoa, that's vintage. But what's interesting though about it is when we were in Brooklyn, when we were shooting the founder course right at Christmas time, there was a bunch of ads on the New York subway. And it was effectively the same level of messaging and marketing of like, your iPhone 11, iPhone 13, the iPhone 15. Like, these aren't. These aren't bad phones. Like, trade in your phones for better older phones because we need basically, like, why are you paying $4,000 for the phone that came out this year with like a battery Upgrade on the iPhone 12? Like, you're good to go. Like, and it basically was this, like, tech swapping program. And the messaging was really compelling. It was like, it's cool to buy good quality products, not something that's just new and astronomically expensive. And I really liked their ads. I got to find out what the brand was called. I forget.
- [23:18]
B
Well, I think definitely people are going back to quantity, quality, and we find that things were built better in the past. And that makes sense. But what I wanted to. If I could just take a little segue on the phone thing and if. Since we're asking people for feedback, what are your thoughts? I was listening to all of the cell phone manufacturers within one year came out with phones that you couldn't take the batteries out of. Now, I don't know if you remember the first cell phones, but you could always slide the battery out of your phone, right? And the conversation is to, why did that happen? Right. And they think it's because when you take the battery out of your phone, your phone is actually off. But now every phone has the battery on. Even when you turn your power off, your phone is still listening to you. And people don't know that. And so there was a privacy issue that they think somebody influenced the phone manufacturers to make all phones internal batteries you couldn't take out.
- [24:11]
A
Wow. I mean, that makes perfect sense. But even to go to the legacy point, he talks so much in legacy about Steve's job. Steve Jobs obsession on ritual and over like perfection. And he's like, the obsession for perfection in Apple products is what made at the time of Steve Jobs passing. Apple was the most valuable business in the world. And it was because he was like, there is no words for the level of obsession that Steve Jobs had. It really deserves its own category. But he was even saying Steve Jobs was so obsessed with the loading time to start the computer that he shaved off five seconds. Because when he quantified how many products would be sold in the first year, it resulted to a hundred years of someone's life. And so he, like, they spent an additional, whatever it was, month, two month, two months to take five seconds off the turning on time. He was the first person to create a ritual of, like, opening up the packaging. He was the first person to pre charge electronics so that when you did the unboxing, you could enjoy your electronics. They didn't come dead. So you had to wait another 25, 30 minutes to charge the item like you actually had.
- [25:30]
B
You had to unbox the charging cord like it was in its separate little box with the. With the thing, right?
- [25:36]
A
It's a moment. It's moment for everyone. Like, you don't take that away from someone. Like, if you get a laptop, like, I'm not unwrapping it. Like, you're unwrapping it yourself. And even what he said is, like, when he opened the HQ in, in California, he made the entire floors white to represent purity and perfection. Like, no.
- [25:56]
B
Because you could tell if there was dirt. And from a business perspective, from our listeners, people at the end think, well, I've gotten to 90%, so it's good enough. And it's very hard sometimes to be on your staff because they make. They make you feel like you're, you know, impinging on them if you ask them to go more, more, more. But when you look at Olympic athletes or anybody who wins, the difference is 1% or 2%. Right? Like the fastest runner, like the gold from the sixth place, like, it's very small difference. And a lot of people work hard to get up to that 80 to 85%. And then everybody is like, this is good enough, boss. Don't bother me. We can get this out.
- [26:35]
A
And when you say a McLaren, it's like, it's 10th.
- [26:38]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so it's that last little bit. But it's hard from a human because when you're running your business, you kind of don't want to. I personally, at times not want to. Felt like I'm making people do extra work. That doesn't seem valuable in the short perspective of our day today. But what Steve Jobs did, because he was kind of disassociated from caring if people got upset at him is he created a large impact because he forced people to pay attention to the. You know, he's like that crazy artist or whatever it goes. It's not good enough. It's not good enough and the people around you might not like it. But at a larger scale, when your products go out, you've got that extra 3 to 4% that makes you the winner.
- [27:18]
A
Yes, but here's where I disagree. There's a lot of clients listening to this and there's a lot of, a lot of business owners that have marketing teams listening to this that you just gave them the permission to demand more without being involved in doing the work. And that's also. That's a key difference between the Elon Musk and the Steve Jobs is that when they expect greatness, it's because they're involved. They know their product, they know the hooks, they know what's working. It's easy to be busy doing something else and just keep getting angry at the marketing team when you're not heavily involved.
- [27:52]
B
The difference between a founder and kind of a biz school CEO, the founder is the artist who's passionate.
- [27:58]
A
I know there's a lot of founders that fire and forget and then just keep getting annoyed when the product comes back and it's. And it doesn't have that je ne sais quoi of someone who's in the weeds in the business every single day. And it's. To me, it's a very, very important difference that you're correct. The way that we see it, like there's an uncomfortability to when we ask our team to go back and do a different edit or to change the vision and the graphic. But we're very involved in our marketing of ourselves and of our business in a way that the founders that are. When you look at the Four Seasons, when you look at the Walmart, when you look at the All Blacks, there is no delegation of. That's your job, not my job. It's an everyone's job.
- [28:43]
B
It becomes a leadership style too that you have to reflect on because you see something you don't like in accordance with your vision and there are human factors that will push back against you insisting on it. And so many people we've worked with and myself in different times have, have put out things that could have been better because it was just, it was, it was uncomfortable asking people to do more. So you should, when you ask people to do more, just do a little reflection, say is this really for my vision or is this me being petty? You know, like look at it.
- [29:14]
A
But I think we're, we're conflating a bunch of different things, I think to wrap up the apple point. It's so interesting to See where Apple was to where Apple is today. Right. And that difference is where this pent up aggression towards Apple comes from. And Samsung and these other brands have such a massive opportunity to steal market share because the principles in which made Apple great of what we bought into and we took that trust and credibility are now no longer there. But the product is still good enough that it allows our brand loyalty without it maintaining its consistent brand promise.
- [29:54]
B
Very interesting. And what I'd say to our, our listeners taking that i4 that iPhone4 story is vintage and vibe are in. People want to feel vibe they don't want. So think of whatever product or service you're in charge of and, and then look back what, what is a vintage picture of it? What's, what's an interesting story of when it was done the best. And try to capture something about what you're offering or selling that speaks to a, a vintage requirement or something stylistically that that differentiates you from others.
- [30:25]
A
Where I was saying, you're conflating the different things. There's where Apple was to where Apple is today. But when you look at the Apple story, the first few products that Steve Jobs launched, Steve Job launched, weren't perfect. And that's another issue too, right? Is you say this to me all the time. If you're not embarrassed by the first thing that you launched, you took too long. And that's where everything that we're saying, it depends where you're at. There's a lot of people who are wanting to create content, who want to have a podcast, who want to start launching their personal brand. But you're expecting it to be perfect and your hindrance on it being perfect is what's holding you back. That's a problem. And you need to start and get in the game and to just have ships launching where you can analyze, reflect and look.
- [31:14]
B
Can I give you a perfect example? Boeing, one of the most powerful companies in the US ever is kind of now engineered itself out of the space game because they were supposed to make a rocket and they took eight years to make one rocket. Whereas SpaceX crashed three to four rockets. They launched them, they crashed them, they learned. And then when Boeing released their first spaceship or rocket, they couldn't get the people out of the space like it failed, like they took too long to get the product done. Whereas fall get up like fail, fail fast I think is the quote and keep learning. And so you need to be bold in terms of doing something. But once you solidify your product then, then obsess about the details of the delivery.
- [31:58]
A
Well, and that's where I'm like, that's why I delineate between a good brand, a brand, a good brand, and a great brand. There's three levels of branding to what you're saying. It's like at the level that we're at, you know, we're showing up now once a week, we're creating content. We're coming in and recording a podcast. We have courses launching. We have like, it's. It's not acceptable for it to. For us to not have a plan, for us to not do the work, for us to not be reviewing what our team is editing and putting out there. And it just us not feeling like we can give edits at the point of where we're at. So for a lot of you, if you're. If you and I also meet people that they don't think that they can be in charge of their marketing because they historically have not been a marketer. But you can know your brand the best, and no one is going to do that better for you. You can delegate, you know, video editing, you have to be a video editor. But when it comes to like creating the content, selecting the music, you need to be involved and that's where to what you're saying. It's like you need to understand where you're at on this journey. Is it the. You just took what Philip said and that it needs to be perfect and you're not starting. Well, then you got to listen to Seth Godin and create a send date. If you are. If you've been creating Sundays and your content isn't growing and it's been over a year, well, you got to obsess over being perfect because you're probably outsourcing it to somebody else and you're not being involved in the editing and what's going to take you to the next level. So it's kind of matching where you're at.
- [33:24]
B
Don't let perfect stop you from making content.
- [33:26]
A
But.
- [33:27]
B
But once you're making content, later you can obsess about getting where you want to go.
- [33:31]
A
And before we move on to the next part, I actually wanted to kind of come back to that evolutionary arc that we explored through Dan Ko. Another book recommendation, the Art of Focus. It's a fantastic book. How the beginning stages of creating content. What's most overwhelming is turning on the phone, recording the video, and then posting it. Right. Some people can record the video, but then they have a ton of drafts or they can never record the video. It's always going to be a tomorrow and tomorrow never comes. Or it's the not posting. But once you get over that hump of like you've gone through the shit, you've, you've created and you've kind of created, created content, you've been posting it, you then need to move into having a more meaningful act, like the act of writing to plan out your content. Because then it becomes too easy to just spit something out in 30 or 60 seconds, but it lasts. It lacks impact or value.
- [34:30]
B
Moving on. What I thought was why we're talking about the book Legacy this week is I asked you earlier what book you're reading and you said you're reading Legacy. And that's an amazing book about the New Zealand All Blacks, which I think is a brand worth us diving into to see why such a small country was able to make such an impact on international sport through how they approached their, their organization and their brand.
- [34:55]
A
Oh my God, I loved this book, Legacy. I've got so many notes to talk about this book, and for me, the core takeaway for Legacy is that. So Legacy is about the New Zealand All Blacks, which I'll let you give kind of a bit of a bio and background on. But what I loved about this book is that it gives you range for what you how you can apply how people do things that are great in other areas to your brand or business. And one of my favorite quotes by Tony Robbins is that success leaves clues. And the reason why I love reading these case studies is identifying where can I extract those overarching concepts and clues that you can take to leapfrog to getting to success faster. And there was just so many parallels for all the business books, all of the core principles I've seen in all of the major case studies found right in this book. So it is such a great and fast read.
- [35:55]
B
Yeah, it's interesting because the author of Legacy has spoken to special forces units now, big corporations, some government agencies. And your point is really valid that success in different industries and markets, it often has some of the same characteristics. But from a branding and a marketing perspective, just to back up New Zealand's a small country beside Australia. Most people know that rugby is their national obsession. A bunch of countries around the world love rugby. It's a huge. It's a huge sport. Not a lot of Americans are as familiar with rugby, but it's a very passionate, intense sport involving a lot of our Western allies. And New Zealand All Blacks are the most successful rugby team in the history of the world. And they're known as the All Blacks, they have a very distinctive brand that's almost known around the world now. But they didn't start off saying, okay, what's our brand? How are we going to build a brand? They started off by building an organization that actually was successful and stayed true to principles. And from that repeated excellence and performance built a brand that is international, you know, as good as Guinness in many ways. And I think there's lessons business owners can take from that.
- [37:05]
A
Well, a lot of people, when they think about the New Zealand All Blacks, they think of the haka, because, like, the haka, which is like a kind of a tribal. A ceremonial chant that happens at the beginning of the game, is scary. And their brand is very, like, tough, masculine kind of this. It's a scary brand that you don't want to mess with them. And they've developed this very intentionally. But what's cool is that the way that they built that brand is exactly to your point. It's principles. And all of the best brands. Walmart, Four Seasons, Apple, like, they had. They had the. Like, they had core principles to their brand. It's what made them great.
- [37:47]
B
What I would do if. If you guys aren't familiar with this, it's worth studying, because as Camille says, we can learn something from any industry and apply it to our own. Just go on YouTube and Google best haka Ceremony H A K K A and watch how in New Zealand, because of their strong association with Polynesian culture, they adopted something from the culture they were in and incorporated into their. Their sports team. And you see it all through New Zealand. And what I would. What I would show, what I would emphasize to people, when you look at that haka now, it's executed beautifully, right? And for. I'm sure there were people who said, you can't do that. It's cultural appropriation. There was probably a thousand people said, why you can't do it? And think of all the reasons why you wouldn't do it. Because if you imagine yourself trying to do a haka the first time, you'd be embarrassed. Like, they're making faces and screaming and sticking their tongue out. So there's this. A lot of people wouldn't want to do that because it might be embarrassing, but because they went all in on their culture and all in on their principles, it became something that once they got through, the discomfort is now something of pride that elicits fear in others. And you probably experience the same thing in your company, where you're like, I want to do this, but I'm Worried about being ridiculed by the industry or other thing other people will say. Right. But if you really believe in it and it's part of your core identity, when you lean into it, you will bypass your. Your competitors.
- [39:13]
A
Well, it's funny, I've got two points on that. The first is really James Kerr, the author of Legacy. He really didn't focus on the haka because the haka is a outcome of having a larger sense of team. And we. And that the haka kind of binds them all together in that that is their ceremony to start a game. And what's cool about that is, to your point, all of the brands that I analyzed had an element of. That could be embarrassing, but they got past it for the sake of their company's culture. For Trader Joe's, it was like the Hawaiian Shir, and it was having bells that were more like boat kind of bells at the cash registers. And they would announce specials on the microphone. For Walmart, it was. They would do Saturday meetings and they would always have. They do their Walmart chant. So because Sam Walton and his family were so into football, they did their own version of a. Give me a W, give me an A, give me an L. And they did these kind of embarrassing, you know, team dynamic concepts that absolutely cemented them into being something bigger than themselves. So it wasn't so much about the haka. It's what the haka represent by having a larger understanding of principles.
- [40:40]
B
Yeah. It's like you can't just get 25 people together and say, let's do the haka and have them believe in it. You actually have to go through all of the branding culture steps to get to the point where you can do it and you love it. Well, it's a fact.
- [40:56]
A
And I have got them. Let's go through them. So the first. My first core takeaway was like the leaving the jersey in a better place than when you got it. And what's really cool is that there's this sense of like, once you make the All Blacks team, the. The person who often will give you the jersey is the person that would wear that number before you. And the idea is that it's not like in basketball or hockey where you're retiring the number. The idea is that you've got this larger purpose to carry on the number and to leave the sport or the jersey in a better place that you found it.
- [41:30]
B
Can I jump in? Because in sports, especially in North America, when you have highly funded teams, right. You can buy players, you can do a whole bunch of stuff. But the story of New Zealand is it's a tiny country that beats the United States, Great Britain, France, South Africa, Australia. It's giant neighbor all the time. And it did it because it actually focused on core principles and stuck true to them. Right. It's different than. And that. That element of stewardship, the. The jersey being passed down as opposed to retiring it. Even the haka, if you watch the all backs play, you never see an individual celebrating for his own ego. Right? The way you see in basketball or in soccer and hockey. You know what I mean? Where it's like, look at me, I got it right. It's always about.
- [42:16]
A
It's not a selling.
- [42:18]
B
It's always about the team. And the haka is. The only kind of extravagant thing that New Zealand All Blacks do is this haka, which. But they do it collectively for something of the game and for something bigger than themselves and leaving it better than. Than you. Most people are not focused on that. They're very individual focused, like, what can I get out of this? And the All Blacks, if they sense that you're one of those people, you could be the best player in the country. You won't be invited. That's different than a lot of sports teams where they'll take superstars who undermine the group. And it's applicable probably to your business. You might have a superstar, but who's destroying the culture and destroying the group. And getting rid of that person could be the best thing you ever did.
- [42:58]
A
Well, that was one of the other takeaways that they had, is that they. They. There's no they. Like, there's no space for dickheads. And that's our actual language. It's like, we have no dickheads. And it's that there, if you have behavioral issues, if you're more focused on the individual than the larger self, it doesn't connect to this principle. But those are actually different principles, right? Like this concept of stewardship. The reason why it really spoke to me is this fundamentally communicates to my ethos and approach that I have to branding at large and why I struggle when I communicate with business owners that it's not about just money. It's like. It's like you should be leaving this industry better than when you started. Like you should have some kind of impact or stewardship vision that's larger than just monetary value, like money or winning comes from having the right principles, the right approach, the good product, the right execution. Like, you win more games when you have better principles. But your focus shouldn't be on Money alone, it should be leaving something better than you found it. And if that's your focus, greatness will come.
- [44:07]
B
The question is, how do you get it into your culture? Like, it usually comes from the founder. Right. Because you can't lead by committee.
- [44:14]
A
Right.
- [44:15]
B
And often these brands are started by one person who has a passion to do things differently. It's a coach. The All Black system has. That coach, I think we were discussing went to the Kansas City Chiefs. Right. What I loved about the book is, you know, what I loved is that the top players clean up their own dressing room. And you just don't see that in business. Right. Even when you see the C suite people or the leaders, they come in, they want to be there for the flash, and then they just leave. And you don't create a culture. But in the All Blacks dressing room, the top player in New Zealand sweeps up the dressing room after the game. They're all involved in it. I really love that concept.
- [44:55]
A
Yeah. The sweeping of the sheds, that no task is too small or no detail is beneath their attention. The concept that no one is bigger than themselves. But to your point, it's that you need to undergo a mindset shift. Like, it isn't the coach. It's that everyone that's come on the team since that. Since the initial coach that started to transition, the kind of. The All Blacks approach underwent the same mindset shift. And without having that fundamental mindset shift, you can't get to what we're saying. Like it is a level of enlightenment. Like it is a different level, it is a different stage. And even to your point, like, the. The ability that no task is too small for you, like, to be. That goes back to the point we're talking about with like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. Like, when you just see marketing as someone else's job or branding is someone else's job, it's never going to be great. Like, you need to see everything from writing the caption to scheduling out the post to be something that you should be capable of doing, and it isn't beneath you.
- [45:57]
B
I think James talks in the book about champions do more. Really like. And it's just. I was surprised how. How many times he repeated it in the book and how it related to the All Blacks. It's. They're all. And in today's world, something that a few of us could learn about being early, like, respecting other people's time, like, they're all there 15 minutes early every day. It allows the culture of the team to understand that from the leader down to the people. They're all early. Right. And that you're not going to be amazing if you don't do more than your competition. And I love that. Even if it's like an extra rep. An extra. He talked about Arnold Schwarzenegger. It was such a good book on excellence.
- [46:38]
A
Oh, I really loved the concept that you talked about as Kaizen. I know Kaizen isn't a new concept. And if you've read enough business books, you've probably come across it a few times. But the way that he put it, that continuous improvement is central to the All Blacks philosophy and that it begins with self development, preparing yourself to take the lead when called upon. Right. Like understanding that you have to be. You have to stay in the game. And it's what we've been really talking internally with our conversations the past few weeks, is if you're not obsessed with continuous improvement, you're not going to be great. And that comes to every area. Like so many business owners aren't focused on understanding how to upload a video to TikTok or how to use Instagram. And if you're not staying relevant for how to keep your brand continuously improving, you're losing.
- [47:27]
B
Yeah. Is it your brand or your business?
- [47:30]
A
Well, they're both. They're the same thing. Right. Like your brand is your business, your business is your brand. That's where people get messed up between branding and marketing. Right. Is that your. Your business is only as successful as. Or your brand is only as successful as your brand is. All right, let's talk about legacy. I'm. It's a book I finished this week. I'm obsessed with it because it's such a great example of my favorite quote, success leaves clues. And I love looking for unexpected places for inspiration to make your business, your brand and yourself better. And that was this book for me.
- [48:08]
B
Fascinating story in terms of so many lessons learned from that book that could be applied to any business.
- [48:15]
A
You can't be great if you're not focused on continuous improvement if you're not in the game.
- [48:23]
B
Personal experience. You've now got me into the habit of taking care of myself. So we've gone to different types of nail salons in the past, and I was thinking about our recent experience and you can look at it in any industry, you can find businesses where people seem like it's palatable that they don't actually care. Right. And the difference between going into a business where the owners care and they pay attention versus ones who don't was so stark. Just in terms of the last one we went to. But I was trying to think about it when you said it resonated with you, this book, I was thinking it's because you care about business. We find brotherhood and sisterhood with people who are committed to excellence, and we can find them. That's the far halfway around the world. Right. And you found it in a sports team that shares the principles that, that you've come to love. And we want to share that. You know, how would you take kind of what legacy represents and how would you. How would you transfer that to a medical spa owner, a lawyer?
- [49:25]
A
Well, it's even funny what you were just saying. Like, we actually got into an argument about me not wanting to go to that nail salon because to your point, you're like, well, what's the difference? Right? Because these aren't particular, they're not brands, the nail salons.
- [49:39]
B
Right.
- [49:39]
A
It's different versions of the same thing is what it looks like from the outside. And I kind of argued with you because I was like, well, no, I don't like this one. And anyways, ended up the one that I like was closed on a Sunday. So we went to the one that we were arguing about and it was just. It was so interesting without you saying that I was right, which I did want, but I'm so glad that I got here.
- [50:02]
B
You were right.
- [50:03]
A
It was that I could just like your energy, your. Like you even wanted to leave. Like you didn't want to get the other service. Like you. And to your point, it's like to what you're saying, there's such a baseline level, like the average person listening to this, like, you're gonna deeply care about your business because, like, you're focused on continuous improvement. But that baseline level of just caring is level one, and then level two is really caring. But not understanding that the four quadrant matrix of what is urgent, important, what is urgent, not important, what is not important but urgent. And then what is not urgent and what's not important. And this idea of the continuous improvement. I just meet so many business owners that feel like they can't afford marketing or they're too old to market themselves or whatever of the. The 25 different excuses are. And it's just the difference of like when I hear business owners get frustrated because X Brand is just doing more.
- [50:59]
B
It's.
- [51:00]
A
I can't. You can't actually hire someone to turn you into like a Four Seasons. Like, you genuinely have to have that horizon.
- [51:08]
B
Yeah. How it augment that even just from running a law firm in the past is one of the best ways to ensure more business is to call a client a month after and check in with them. Right. But it never seems important because you've got so much stuff to do. And like, if you. It's one thing to say we care. Being like, have a nice day. Was everything okay? Or going that extra level of reaching out to your clients and speaking to them and that investment in time in your business will disproportionately pay off. If you do that every day for two or three years.
- [51:42]
A
So many things even speak out to me too. Like, I think about, like, Gary Vee saying, like, you know, everyone should make video. And I've actually come across people that like, shouldn't make video. And the reason why they shouldn't make video is like, you shouldn't just make video because someone told you that you can just make. You can make video, but you shouldn't make video if you're not focused on continuous improvement. Like, if you're not actually working towards telling your customer something new, providing them value, that's. And I talk about this, I criticize medical spas and realtors a lot. Like, they're all saying the same thing. And if you're not focused on Kaizen of like, how can you continually improve yourself? That's the difference between our friend Justin, you know, and the other realtors is that he is so focused on being the head of the curve in technology, head of the curve in different apps and how to brand your business, how to market yourself, that we learn something from him when we see him from his brand.
- [52:32]
B
There are people who like, send you a gift after you close the house, but because he cares about people, him and I had a conversation. Then all of a sudden, three days later, I get in the mail a book. Because he knows I like Ray Dalio, his book Principles of Journaling Perspective. Like, he actually went that far and sent that. I refer that guy so many, so many clients because of that trust. But that's, that's going the all black level in terms of staying true to your brand.
- [52:58]
A
It's actually continuous improvement at its core. Because even though what Justin does is, is meaningful, it's meaningful because he's constantly improving himself. So he's giving himself fresh ideas, he's changing his perspective, he's getting outside of box. And that's what most people, these business owners miss is that when they, they write me these inboxes and these comments of like, I just don't know how to get ahead my competition, they've Got so much money, they're killing me. And it's like, you know, I can figure it out for you, or you can figure it out, you know, like you can just continuously improve. And that was such a core takeaway for me, is that the All Blacks are such a perfect example of, like, you could have everything stacked against you. But if you have the concept of kaizen, among the other principles that we're going to go through, you can break through.
- [53:48]
B
Well, what are the other principles that you thought were amazing?
- [53:51]
A
I really loved the pebble in your shoe. The Muhammad Ali quote that it's not the mountains ahead of you that wear you down, it's the pebble in your shoe. It's that employee that you don't let go. It's the approach to your calendar that you don't change. It's those small things that wear you down but are smaller than these big obstacles ahead of you. And that focusing on those smaller things is what keeps you sharp for the bigger things.
- [54:24]
B
Well, I think we talked about earlier with jobs in terms of having white floors or attention to detail. There's lots of people who'll be like, don't worry about it. Let's go practice. They're like, no, we're not going to do that until we get this core thing right.
- [54:37]
A
Yeah, but that's also the thing, too. When you read all these case studies, these brands, they never start with where they end. Four seasons wasn't the four seasons after property one or property two or property 11. It becomes those mountains ahead you learn to tackle. When you deal with those small things, when you focus on consistency, when you have systems, when you are focused on continuous improving, having no jerks know. Like, when you do those things, it allows you to tackle those bigger things ahead because you're equipped.
- [55:15]
B
And it goes back to some martial arts stuff that I've studied too, is, you know, the masters in martial arts go back and restudy the simplest moves.
- [55:24]
A
Yeah.
- [55:24]
B
Like to try to get perfection in the simplest things. Right. The need to over complicate things, I think, gives us an excuse from focusing on some of the core things in our business. And what the All Blacks got right was do the basic things right before you think about the next level.
- [55:41]
A
Even the art of saying no, just being able to understand what to focus on and what to say no to. They just have their basics, their fundamentals. That was another thing that spoke to me. They talk about Walter Isaacson interviewing Steve Jobs, and he goes, the biggest thing isn't focusing on the ideas. It's it's deciding what idea to focus on, because there's just so many ideas. And to tie that to another point that I really loved is whatever you're going to focus on, be focused on it. Be fully invested in it. Because whatever you're choosing to do, you're spending your life on it. Your job, your kids, this hobby that you're building into a business. Whatever you're doing, do it and do it all the way. And be focused on it with simple principles, because this is what you're choosing to invest your time in.
- [56:38]
B
I was thinking about it because the word legacy sticks with me just in terms of lawyers. Like, if you want to leave a legacy of your law practice or your law firm, right, you have to do what other people aren't doing. And success is generally doing what other people don't do. And if you were to call all of your clients a month after and check up on them and then call them six months, you would be doing what everybody else doesn't do. Because they're focusing on a Google Ad thing, they don't actually care. But that builds a legacy because people will say, hey, my lawyer called me six months after we settled the case. No reason asked me how he was doing, popped by and said hello. And then it starts to spread. If you do that over years, that's how you build a legacy. It's doing those extra things. And one of the topics we talked about is that champions do more. They do that extra thing and too many people are busy that they're just kind of phoning in 80% and hoping it works out.
- [57:30]
A
And champions do more and they have a ritual, right? Like, it's about having a ritual to your success, right? Like the unboxing of the Apple products, the unwrapping of the Monte Cristo cigar. Like, there's a ritual to things that are great and that achieving greatness requires a ritualistic aspect to it. So what? And for Walmart, it was their Saturday meeting. You know, like every single Saturday they had a meeting. And it allowed them to implement things so much faster because on Friday they made a decision, on Saturday it was implemented. And because they had that ritual of doing it every Saturday, they were able to pivot and make changes as they needed to. But the point of this is that you don't need a ritual at the Apple level. You just need a ritual for your business in order to take yourself to greatness.
- [58:22]
B
Yeah, they really nailed how to build a community where people are just so proud to be part of that community. Like, at a level. And it. You can't do that by just doing average. Right. Like if you want people to be that proud. And we had a coaching call last week and I had a CEO who founder who was feeling down and unconnected. It was just like a ten minute call. But I think it's worth a lot. I said give me the list of your five favorite clients of all time. And like, yeah, I go and I call you back tomorrow. Call them all, ask them how they're doing. And I spoke to him the next day and he's like, you'd be amazed at what I learned about this industry. You got another contract. He had a friend referral. This was a construction industry. Doing things that make people feel part of your community is so important. And once you're an all black, you're never not an all black.
- [59:08]
A
Yeah, that was a huge thing too. That was really, really cool. Is that it's literally like being a part of a fraternity or you know, the military. Like you get a title like you're a veteran, you know to. You've earned it, you've earned it. You've gone through something that was difficult. I also really love too. Before we wrap up this section, in order to do. In order to know what to do, you need to know who you are. So before you can articulate what your brand stands for, you must understand your authentic purpose. So really just having an understanding to your who and your what and your why. And that goes back to the brand problem versus the social problem is that so many business owners or people that are in the marketing are frustrated that their efforts aren't working. But the failure of your efforts is an indication that the foundation is not clear or it has problems. Why I think that just is interesting. Overall is the name of their brand how they became more well known. It compounded over time. It's not one win, two win, three wins. It's like something becomes great over time, but it's because they understand a great brand purpose. So even to your point of like picking up the phone and calling so many people, once you understand your purpose, once you understand your why, once you're focused, once you're focused on the continuous improvement, everything you do from having that strong foundation results in those incremental moments of success that compound over time.
- [60:31]
B
I think how it translates to business is. What was the quote like? A champion. If you want to find a champion like look on an empty sports field in the rain at 6 o'clock in the morning, right. It's doing the things when nobody's Watching. And the culture that the all blacks encouraged was do the small things, even if nobody's watching. And in your business, do those extra things as opposed to going home and saying, I did enough and watching White Lotus, like, do the things that you need to do to be excellent champions.
- [61:00]
A
Do more. Okay, so that wraps up legacy. Let's do our quickly or hot or not. We got a lot for this week.
- [61:09]
B
Yeah.
- [61:09]
A
Are you ready?
- [61:10]
B
Yeah.
- [61:11]
A
Okay, so we're gonna start off the harder, hotter knot with Nara Smith. She launched a smoothie at Arahan. It's an interesting knot. My thoughts are the Arohan doing these personal brand smoothies was. Is an interesting concept because they're basically driving sales through individual built audiences, which is smart, hot. I think that Nara Smith. So she's gotta show your page. It's crazy. She's like always in these like, crazy gown. She's. They're like Mormon maybe. And they. So her, her husband and her kids will say, like, they are craving a hot dog and she makes every single thing from scratch, but without like telling you how to make it. So she acts as if like she just, you know, made the bun and the full hot dog and the mustard and the in the ketchup, as if it's just like an easy dinner wrap up. So it's kind of this, like. And it's all done through like asmr. I'm gonna like pat the flour in and like mix the bowl. So because she's got a food based background and a food based audience, you would think that that partnership is hot. To me, I don't think it connects with her brand. I don't think that her customer base is predominantly where Arahan is in Los Angeles. And three, I just think it's overdone. They've done so many of these Arahan vendors. It's a really expensive grocery store in la. It's like a specialty grocer. But it's become kind of like they've got one in Beverly Hills, they've got one in Santa Monica. Like, it's kind of. There's like four or five locations and it's just an overpriced grocery store.
- [62:47]
B
It's the knot because the affiliation doesn't make sense or help the brand.
- [62:53]
A
To me, it's a. Not for a few reasons. One, I think the branded smoothies are overdone. So I think it's time for Era Han to like, shake it up. Two, I don't think it connects with the audience for the person. So to me, it just seems like now they're launching it for like B and C rate because before it was like the Hailey Bieber. Like it was big, bigger names and it was like interesting because it was bigger names.
- [63:22]
B
Isn't it like putting names on Coke cans, literally?
- [63:26]
A
Yeah, yeah. Like that's what it's become now. It's like there's just been too many of them. Like, to me this isn't a new story. It's a. Not now, you know.
- [63:31]
B
Yeah, like when, if you're the first one, sure. But now at the end it's, it's just not.
- [63:36]
A
It's just a burnout. Which takes me to the next one, which is McDonald's gives out celebrity orders. So to me, I'm, I'm divided on this. I'm going to give it a not because so basically it's just like a overexposed photo of the bag and then it tells you like what their order was as like an Uber Eats like staple clip.
- [64:00]
B
But does that seem constructed because you put your initial into your McDonald's order? Michael B. Jordan.
- [64:05]
A
Well, it's constructed because they've like paid, like these are like, it's a paid partnership. Right. So they want to make sure that it's not like Michael B. Jordan has a downside because like Michael Jordan is well known. So it has to be Michael B. Jordan for you to know who it is. But to me, this is, to me this is a note because again, it's the same thing as the Arajan. It was really cool. McDonald's started doing this like they had launched this years ago with rappers and it like completely sold out. Like the Travis Scott sold out the world on like whatever it was pickles and. But now to me, I feel like it just really shows that McDonald's is like they're just trying to grasp onto anything. Like Julia Fox is like an anorexic avant garde fashion model. You know, like how much is her audience really going to go chase after her McDonald's order versus, you know, like hip hop or a rap based audience that is probably more likely to go to a McDonald's after a show or like, like it made sense when they launched it, but now like it just, it's kind of overdone.
- [65:05]
B
Certainly it's not that imaginative, you know, but it's selling, it's selling an idea to people who may, may buy into it. So maybe it works for their target audience. Certainly not for us.
- [65:15]
A
Definitely not for us. Here. I want to get your opinion on this one. So you know this lying on it.
- [65:21]
B
We are Going to get rained on.
- [65:24]
A
So I need to think about how.
- [65:25]
B
I'm going to do the rain bit. So it's me, it's like.
- [65:30]
A
But I don't think they're going to want that. I think they're going to want something a bit more. So effectively, that chick from White Lotus was this week's partner with Burberry. Hot or not.
- [65:48]
B
Well, I didn't know it was about Burberry from watching what I saw there, but she has a Burberry flavor kind of in there. So I think, I think the timing with Light Lotus is probably smart, but I didn't get a sense of Burberry style in what she was saying there.
- [66:04]
A
So I'm really conflicted on this one, too. I want to say. Not because I feel like Burberry is trend chasing, which isn't what the brand was founded on, but then I struggle with that answer because Burberry's Burberry is really having a lift currently because they're making their brand more relevant.
- [66:31]
B
You know, I don't mind it in that, that that particular character is not extravagant, that actress or over the top elegant, like she, she kind of can. She kind of captures, I think, Burberry's target market, which is often people who have money but aren't supermodels.
- [66:49]
A
Yeah.
- [66:50]
B
You know, but want to look, want to feel special, you know what I mean? And they know they're not going to be supermodels, but they come from like a good, you know, a, A good family or whatever. They have the money to spend. And so I think that they're actually bringing the brand back down to what's consumable for their market.
- [67:06]
A
This is where I struggle, though, with these, these conversations, because I think Burberry is really killing it on social media right now. Like, they're objectively doing a really great job. I struggle with it, though, tied to their price point, because I don't find the relevance of what they're doing on socials. Connects with a $3,000 trench coat. And that's where it's like, are you doing a good thing for the current moment or are you maintaining brand value over time? And it's like as a luxury brand house, traditionally, you're more focused on just being a brand. Like, this is where it's complicated because. Because LVMH owns all of the brand houses, they're more chasing what regular brands do. And for that reason, Burberry is doing a really good job. But from an objective, like, benchmark, like, if you're Someone that cares about the money you're putting into your products. And you're buying a Burberry jacket at the price point that Burberry is selling it at. Traditionally it hasn't been for people that are chasing trends.
- [68:11]
B
So yeah, I'm with you. Like, if I was advising Burberry, I'd go emphasize that this piece will last you a decade. Right? Like kind of go against the, the rapid fashion and say, yeah, like that's what I would do. And that that commercial kind of picks it up a little bit. But I think they should double down a little bit more on you can afford a piece of Burberry because it's going to stay with you for a long time.
- [68:33]
A
And I really like your guys feedback who's listening to it. So that's a Burberry one. Next one is Skims relaunched. It's swimwear. So they did this huge figure in Times Square, which initially doesn't tell you that it's Kim Kardashian. Other that it's like very bust focused and butt focused, but it's like her covering her face. To me this was a not. I think Skims does a very good job doing brand activations and launches. To me this was just gauche like to have this massive like Macy's Day Parade thing in the middle of Times Square that doesn't particularly like look like Kim Kardashian. But it's like also not really talking about the swimwear. It just, it just felt like they, they bought eyeballs like, and it kind of annoyed me because I follow the whole Skims team and they were all posting about it because it was our big activation.
- [69:26]
B
But I'm like this, well, that's what money does, right? Once you get to the point where you have money, you can just do things bigger and you can be like, but like is that creative? Does that cause does that make interest now? It's just like, look, we can pay to stand out and that'll keep your brand going, but it's not an investment in your brand, I don't think.
- [69:45]
A
And that's what's difficult to measure right Is like you'll get that the short term hit of like the trend chasers. But I think Skims has the potential of being a long term brand. Like I think she's done a good job with the brand to honestly, to my chagrin, like surprisingly, like I didn't anticipate, which I shouldn't have because obviously that whole family are exceptional at branding and positioning and personal branding. But, but Kim has Surpassed, I think everyone's idea with the whole Skims product line. So I do kind of expect more.
- [70:17]
B
What does Skims represent as a brand to you?
- [70:19]
A
Well, it started as shapewear because she's so curvy and is constantly being photographed that she needed to create shapewear that fit her body type, that was comfortable, that was wearable. So she was the first one to do basically Spanx, better than Spanx, and she called it Skims. And initially it was called Kimono because her name's Kim. But that got kiboshed and then it became Skims, which is a better name. So Skims is supposed to represent shapewear.
- [70:53]
B
Skin.
- [70:54]
A
Skin. And it was. It's a good brand. Like everything I bought from it, I really quite like. This stuff, to me just feels like very Gen Z trend chasing on TikTok. And that doesn't build long term brand longevity?
- [71:06]
B
Well, it doesn't speak to what it provides the customer.
- [71:09]
A
No.
- [71:10]
B
Right. But, but I think that's where great, like a legacy brand, you have. You have like a good brand, a brand, a good brand, a great brand. There might be room for another one called a legacy brand.
- [71:23]
A
Brand is religion.
- [71:24]
B
Right. And a legacy brand is where you're not chasing. What's it called, you're not chasing growth for growth's sake. You're sticking to a principle. You get to that level of a great brand and then you become a legacy because you just entrench it so that you can't be knocked off of it. But you're not, you're not chasing new markets or just more money all the time.
- [71:46]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [71:47]
B
And she seems to be at the point where she had a great brand and she may not become a legacy brand because it looks like she's chasing money and notoriety rather than entrenching the legacy.
- [71:57]
A
I think that they, they're just doing so much that they actually need fresh ideas because so much of what they've done have been good. But that to me is just like a lazy social moment where the brand is. It's really exhausting though. Like, you need to like keep having these social moments. And to me, it was like an idea that had the grandness factor but just fell flat.
- [72:20]
B
That's why marketing needs high level intelligence and strategy, not just people who chuck out ideas. Oh, wouldn't be great if we did a Macy's float with a huge Kardashian.
- [72:29]
A
Okay, not next. Okay, so I've got two more that I want to touch on. This one is the skinny pop shows, their new packaging with Jennifer Aniston. And it's like a whole commercial. Oh, my gosh. I'm a huge fan. Oh, thank you. I love Skinny Pop. Anyway, what's your name? Jennifer Aniston.
- [72:52]
B
I'm not seeing that.
- [72:53]
A
Jennifer Anderson. Oh, no, no, no, not Anderson. Anne Iston. I'm so sorry, Ms. Istin. I thought you said your name was Jennifer.
- [73:02]
B
It is.
- [73:04]
A
Sorry, I can't think straight. Can I just.
- [73:06]
B
Yeah.
- [73:07]
A
So that's the Skinny Pop. What are your thoughts?
- [73:09]
B
Spectacular.
- [73:10]
A
Oh, my God. 10 out of 10.
- [73:11]
B
Hot.
- [73:12]
A
Hot all the way.
- [73:13]
B
Like, at so many levels. Some beautiful messaging, the placement of the brand, while Jennifer Aniston is behind it with her mannerisms. But the Skinny Pop is right there. Like, it's. It's beautifully executed.
- [73:25]
A
The reason why I love.
- [73:26]
B
I've never. I haven't seen that before either. You just hit that on me.
- [73:28]
A
Yeah. The reason why I loved it is that it shows that Skinny Pop knows its core customer because I'm its customer and my mom is its customer. Like, really? People that are significantly younger aren't chasing after, like, air. Air, like food, you know? And that really is. The core audience is millennial and Gen X women. And I just thought it was. It was bang on because it was the perfect person.
- [73:58]
B
But why I think it's so powerful is Jennifer Aniston is famous, right? She's amazing. And so you have a young. You have a. Like a 30s ish woman who seems fit. Who would know who Jennifer Aniston is. But because of the way that one lives their lifestyle to be healthy. When you see Skinny Pop and it's. And it's your treat, like you're obsessed with your treat even when there's a superstar behind it, right? Like, it psychologically places Skinny Pop in literally in front of Genera and Jennifer Aniston, however she's holding it and all. And also figuratively, in terms of the front desk clerk just being fixated on the snack that she indulges in. Like, it's. It's. It's really well done.
- [74:38]
A
It's bang on. Bang on. Okay, this is the next one. This is Papa John's EGC ad. We got cab the sauce man pouring our sauce right from the camp. Don't bother piece of his own. We got short Christine.
- [74:55]
B
Check this out.
- [74:56]
A
We got Doly over at our fresh Never frozen original dough station. Show off kids a prodigy. And Scotty and Shannon dropping those topping's all over. He calls me papa. No, I don't. No, I don't. And we're making you A Papa John's pizza. Better ingredients, better pizza.
- [75:13]
B
Papa John.
- [75:16]
A
What do you think?
- [75:17]
B
You want to go first on this one?
- [75:19]
A
I think it's a hot.
- [75:21]
B
I think, I think it's exceptional.
- [75:23]
A
I thought it was exceptional the way.
- [75:25]
B
That it was filmed. I'm not sure if they were using an iPhone4 there, but you really. It looked like you were kind of eavesdropping. It didn't seem too curated. The people weren't. It wasn't fixating on identity politics. It just looked like average people in a pizza spot doing things.
- [75:42]
A
Well, I loved it. I loved it because it did check the boxes. Right. Like it did. But it focused on egc, which employee generated content, which is like everyone is talking about. It's the trend this year. So they made a traditional. Focused on a social trend. They checked the boxes so everyone feels like they're represented. But it didn't feel forced.
- [76:02]
B
It didn't feel like actors as much like even though it may have been, but it felt like it was people in a spot with the underlying message that Papa John uses better ingredients and that's really what it should be like. It was really, it was, it was really well done. It actually made me. My mouth water.
- [76:17]
A
It made me want Papa John.
- [76:18]
B
Yeah, Like, I'm hungry.
- [76:19]
A
Right? I know. I so glad that we agreed on it because I thought that that was great. Okay, then one more because we agreed on that one. So Priceline tells Gen Z travelers to stop dream school to stop dream scrolling in their new ads. So they created this list of ads. Oh, not, not that one. Here we go. Got it.
- [76:40]
B
That Jennifer Aniston 1. If I was there, I would triple their ad budget and put that everywhere.
- [76:44]
A
I know, it's so good. And they also did a rebrand. That was what was in that thing there too. I think they needed the rebrand because it was too like stick line. Okay, I can't. So this is it. So this is the ad. It's effectively. It's for Gen Z travelers and it's basically telling them like, stop dream scrolling. You can go on a vacation with Priceline. It's so bad. Bad. It's so bad.
- [77:18]
B
It's like, I don't, I don't. It's. It, it. It's missing something for me to complete like the sales cycle.
- [77:26]
A
But it's literally an old woman trying to be young. And that's what like annoys me. Kaylee Kuoko is like a great actress. She's very well known to millennial and to like Gen Gen X. But like two Gen Z's. Her last big show was the Big Bang Theory, which isn't tailored to the Gen Z audience. And then she's wearing like. Like, Air Force Ones, sitting on a basketball in the. In the sky in a jumper, and it. She looks like she's in a nurse outfit.
- [77:57]
B
I just don't know why you wouldn't get an actual Gen Z. There are a lot of young people who are prioritizing travel over home ownership or cars, so why not kind of take that Papa John's feel we just got and, like, talk about.
- [78:10]
A
Or pull, like, Zendaya or Tim Timothy Chamolay or someone that's relevant, but that's.
- [78:16]
B
Not relevant to somebody who can't afford to travel. And. And that's where people miss it. They think celebrity affiliation does it. But Tim Chalamet can travel, so he doesn't. He wouldn't appeal to me if I was a Gen Z.
- [78:27]
A
Okay. I'm not. I'm not arguing with you with. With. With where your brain is going. I'm just saying celebrity to celebrity, to pick. Like, it's like picking Jennifer Gardner. Like, that's not relevant to someone. Sub 24.
- [78:41]
B
You know how much it costs for that? Like, if they would have had good thinking on how do we speak to Gen Zs, you know, I don't even think they need a celebrity for that.
- [78:49]
A
No, no, you're. The way that you're thinking is 100% correct. I'm just saying for them to launch this campaign on, like, Marketing Daily, like, targeting Gen Z's, and then it's Kaley Kuyoko.
- [79:01]
B
Mm. Well, that's. That is. That's just a very basic not.
- [79:05]
A
It's an absolute not.
- [79:06]
B
Somebody should be fired.
- [79:07]
A
Buzzer beater is the tagline.
- [79:09]
B
As Donald Trump would say, you're fired.
- [79:10]
A
You're fired. All right, well, that wraps up this week's Art of the Brand. Please send me your thoughts on the Hot or Nots. If you're liking this concept.
- [79:18]
B
I want to talk about Steal like an Artist next week. And that one song that we found was the originator of the other song, because I think that's amazing. I wonder if anybody can guess what.
- [79:28]
A
It is, probably based on that cryptic riddle. Send in your submissions. Thanks for tuning in. See you next week.
- [79:35]
B
Ciao.