B (1:51)

What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand, what a brand, what a brand, what a mighty good brand. Welcome back to another episode of Art of the Brand. Well, we got a lot of talk stuff to talk about today, and we've got a light Christmas flair at the end just to get everybody in the Christmas spirit.

A (2:11)

Think about your favorite Christmas commercials, movies, and songs.

B (2:14)

Yeah, you guys got to send them into us. DM us some of your favorite stuff. Or if you see stuff online that' good for the holidays, send it our way.

A (2:19)

I actually, to be honest with you, when I sat down to prep for the Christmas element and I watched the best, I have to reveal an emotional side. Like, I shed some serious tears.

B (2:28)

Did you really?

A (2:29)

Watching the best Christmas commercials is incredibly moving. We'll talk about that at the end. I'll tell you why it's amazing. For fun.

B (2:35)

Am I like, the Grinch? Because, like, I just was like, meh, yawn when I was watching yours. Yeah, there's no more. Like, that just struck a chord. Like, yes, yes, I am the Grinch.

A (2:45)

Well, I want to argue the topic, not criticize the person. So let's go.

B (2:51)

We're gonna. Let's kick it off with a topic that has done well for us in the past. The Pantone Color of the year. So in case you missed it, I mean, this is like. I think this is gonna be a kickoff topic for Philip, because he was like, this came out probably a week ago, and when it first came out, there was a lot of angry women on the Internet being like, how dare you choose the color of the year to be cloud white.

A (3:17)

How do you call it? White. White is evil.

B (3:19)

Oh, it's. How could you pick that? But, I mean, that's not really what I want to talk about today.

A (3:24)

I know you want to talk about the fashion.

B (3:26)

I feel like I'm at this crossroad where it's clear that Pantone does nothing from a trend perspective. Like, the last year's color, which was mocha mousse, which wasn't, you know, was actually good considering, like, how bad the last few years colors were. But, like, you didn't find it anywhere at any point in any industry. So it's clear that it's no longer driving trends. But what's interesting to me is it's kind of the Apple strategy, like, because they continue to do it, we continue to keep talking about them, even though yesterday we were at the Canadian version of, like, TJ Maxx or Home Goods, and I saw, like, Pantene. Pantene. Pantone has now, like, white labeled their name, and they were, like, on journals.

A (4:08)

Oh, yeah.

B (4:08)

And I'm like, that is the. That is when, you know, the brand has truly died, but that they're, like, selling their stuff at, like, the aftermarket store. But, yeah, I really want to talk about, like, trend forecasting and using this as, like, a That's what I mean. Like I'm at a crossroads because it's clearly not doing anything anymore. But we do talk about it.

A (4:23)

So it's not my main focus in terms of the world, but when I look at trends that are going on in the world, why I think the Pantom may be less relevant is I think people are, are staying too close to old metrics. So for the year, the world has moved so fast that things can't stay relevant for a year. And so when you stay to a year, you're trying to be relevant in forecasting but you can't. Like everything has gone 10x20x in terms of speed. So it should be a month. If somebody wants to try and forecast, they could try to forecast monthly. But to say for a year you're going to know what the color is, it's just not, it's not tenable.

B (4:58)

It also speaks to how much the world has changed. Right. Like really what Pantone is for now is like small businesses, you know, micro influencers or you know, people in marketing positions that want to make a justification to higher up that there's a reason that they should go with a campaign because they selected that color. Like there, there is no gravitas and weight because now trends are no longer forecasted by brands like Pantone. It's done by influencers or celebrities. Right. Like talking about Marty, like Marty Supreme. Like right now, orange is kind of a color. It's having a moment. Him and Kylie are wearing it everywhere. You got the orange iPhone, Gran Turmezzo. I mean that's not new, but we're feeling like orange is everywhere right now. And it. And I, you know, I was even doing some research and there's a. The Odyssey is coming out this year and Christopher Nolan did a version of this and it's just got like every famous person in it. And basically what the idea is that we're going to be seeing tons of blue on the red carpet because now movies, music, I need to do more to generate like that association and creating that marketing. Rule 7.

A (6:03)

We don't trust experts the way we used to because there used to be limited funnels of getting information. And so people would trust Pantone to tell us. But now you can go online and access influencers who inspire you. Right. So these kind of authorities that come down and tell you what's going to be amazing in the next year, they're not trusted or relied upon the same way.

B (6:20)

And that's really where we're going with the next segment is that really the true indicator, like if you really want to know what is going to be trendy, what's seeming to pop out is like the arbiter of truth is this Pinterest kind of like wrap up and Pinterest every year now does this kind of trend report and they've come out with the 2026 trends. But what's relevant about it is that this actually has at least more accuracy because it's based on data of what people are planning to do for the year ahead. So you can actually get a better assessment within these categories because it's what these marketing teams or design teams or creative teams are pinning for the upcoming campaigns.

A (7:00)

And that goes back to an amazing book called Wisdom of the Crowds, which I think people should read because.

B (7:04)

Is that Nalib Nassam Talib? No, no, it's the other guy, Douglas Murray?

A (7:08)

No, he wrote one. He wrote one after that that went on that theme. But wisdom in the crowds is just.

B (7:14)

Oh, the madness of crowds is.

A (7:16)

Yeah, he had the madness of crowds. Wisdom in the crowds is like if you had a thousand people and ten experts and yet all ask them to guess the amount of jelly beans in a jar, the crowd will always be more accurate than the experts. And that's why, that's why when you're kind of searching for answers now, there's some forums where you can ask the crowds to kind of. It's actually helped pinpoint where planes were lost. Like something about the wisdom of human consciousness working together is way more accurate than any one expert.

B (7:46)

Cool. And you know what is actually so on brand, that author is Joe Abercrombie. So you just threw in another brand onto Art of the Brand.

A (7:54)

There you go.

B (7:56)

No, that's a really, really astute point. And to break down what the Trends are for 2026, they include cabbage Crush. So cabbage becoming the it vegetable Gummy, A move towards translucent jelly. Like aesthetics in decor and fashion and scent snacking. Gen Z is moving away from signature scents to mixing multiple perfumes.

A (8:19)

Do you think a human wrote that? Or chatgpt? Scent snacking.

B (8:22)

Stacking.

A (8:23)

Stacking. I thought you said snacking.

B (8:25)

No, scent stacking. Okay, go ahead. I mean, I think this actually makes perfect sense. I'm not done my list though. This makes perfect sense because when you think about what's really been a huge driver in beauty, it's like it's the combination of hacks. I actually had an aha moment the other day that I must discuss on the art of the brand and it was.

A (8:43)

Are you going to talk about Kim Kardashian following you?

B (8:45)

No, I'm not.

A (8:46)

Okay, we should. 360 million followers. She follows 250 people. One of them is Camille Moore.

B (8:55)

It's a big day. Big day, guys.

A (8:57)

Celebrate. And it tells you that when you criticize somebody honestly, sincerely, and thoughtfully, you can actually get their attention. You don't have to shy away from creating controversy. Because I. I really think the reason why she followed you is because you were saying astute things about her business, or we were.

B (9:11)

The lesson of. I mean, Philip thought at first that it was, you know, a way for him. Her to get to him. That was what she was telling the office is like, she really loved that blue sweater from last week. No, but. But what I think that needs to be, like, a theme that you need to carry going into 2026, is people are sick of nobody saying anything. And as long as it's not, like, petulant, you know, if it's thoughtful and it's reasonable. And I had someone actually reach out to me, had a great conversation with them, an absolute, like, queen in pr. She's like, you name it, she's done it. She's worked with everybody, and she's like, you know, I love your content. She goes, because I don't necessarily agree with everything, but at least you're saying something. Like, you have such a clear point of view and perspective. And, like, guys, like, people want to hear what you have to say. Stop being afraid of the idea of some loser in, like, the middle of nowhere not agreeing with you. Like, I'm only saying that just to kind of fire you up, not to just call people that disagree with you losers. But there's just. There's. There's so much of that we hold ourselves back for, people that don't matter. But back to scent snacking. So my aha moment, you know, when I thought about the reason why Rhode will be successful in Sephora, although I am disappointed that it lost the trajectory that it was on, and only because I'm a brand purist, is that one of the things that they did so well is her glazing milk has become, like, a vital step in current beauty culture. So, like, people are like, they shake it onto their hand and then they mix it with a foundation. Like, the current foundation in the moment is like Lady Gaga's house labs. And that combination makes a really beautiful, like, glowy thinned kind of foundation experience. But my point is, is that when you start getting into these, like, brand stacking moments, like, it's not road on its own. It's that you need that product as part of your makeup routine, and that's what generates millions and millions of women. Buying a product of yours is because you're product stacking. So the idea of scent, snacking, snacking, stacking being a trend makes sense because that allows you. You're not trying to just market your product alone. If you can have an influencer kind of mix two together and then that becomes, like, a thing. Now you have people buying two different products to make a new product. Do you know what I'm saying?

A (11:36)

Yeah.

B (11:37)

And so that makes sense to be a trend that's coming because it's worked so beautifully for beauty brands. And that's like, even when I talk about I did a swipe through on one size. We didn't talk about it on the podcast. Patrick Starr, he. He's made he's 175 million a year business, and 70% of his revenue is from a facial spray. And it's like, because the facial spray has become this, like, beauty stacking experience. Do you get what I'm saying? So it's like a part of, like, to achieve this look that's gone viral. That's a part of achieving the look. So, like, road is a part in it. One size is a part, like, you know what I'm saying? So it's not about you getting your brand as, like, the full face. It's like, can you get one of your products to become a part on the recipe? On the recipe.

A (12:22)

Right. Isn't that cool? It's kind of like a recipe for your beauty look.

B (12:25)

That's why you're on the show.

A (12:26)

Thanks. It's not the blue sweater.

B (12:29)

I mean, the blue sweater was pretty cool. You picked that out yourself. I'm so proud.

A (12:32)

In Japan.

B (12:33)

In Japan is true. So. And then the last one is doily aesthetics. So, like, think crochet and lace everywhere, which is actually kind of interesting because there is such a huge move to heritage in branding. Right. Burberry. We talked about this several episodes ago. Going back to its roots. Roots.

A (12:52)

Are you allowed to use the bad word trad? Doesn't it seem like there was a move back to tradition?

B (12:57)

I mean, major. What I'm being interviewed right now in Vogue is on this whole idea of, like, how did this happen? Like, how did we go back to this? Like, like, almost like an archaic concept. Like, how is that trendy to go, like, backwards?

A (13:13)

That's a very limited approach to the world.

B (13:15)

I just think that's like, for a sound bite standpoint, the best Way to summarize it. The only reason why. My argument to it why the why is that Gen Zs grew up in a time where everything was so novel. Like, everything was innovative, everything was new. So this idea of them being able to buy something that's old, that's like.

A (13:35)

Or has meaning.

B (13:36)

That. Yeah. That has meaning or is rooted in something they've seen but have not have the chance to experience is actually what's desirable.

A (13:44)

And I also think they're just appreciating that things were made better. Like there was more meaning. Like, everything is like, yeah, it's not disposable.

B (13:51)

Yeah, you're totally correct.

A (13:52)

It's different. And then you can actually put attention to it, because I think people need to remember that of the possessions we have, there's lots that we throw out, but there are some that. That kind of grow up with us. And I almost used to feel like they would absorb some of our experience, like an old baseball glove or a great pair of jeans. You know what I mean? Like, they can actually have some of life meaning in them if you can use them for many years.

B (14:15)

Well, it's almost become like the drinking game of the moment in branding. It's like every time you hear world building, like, take a shot, but it actually speaks more to world building because it makes you feel right.

A (14:27)

You're creating your own world. That's permanent.

B (14:29)

It's permanent, but, like, it evokes emotion. Like when you see, like, doilies, when you see, like, you know, I instantly think of my immigrant grandmother, you know, and, like, what she prized was, like, these. These beautiful crocheted tablecloths that she would, like, only bring out at special occasions and how much of a ceremony it was to, like, bring out her silverware that she was given at her wedding. And, you know, like, she didn't have a lot of nice things with the things that she had. They weren't nice because they were branded. They were nice because they actually were made well. And they, like, had meaning in her life.

A (15:01)

There's an absence of meaning in the world. Like when we went to Oman and our amazing guide, you know, when he brought out his kind of tablecloth for eating on the ground, like, the care he put into some of his possessions, just you could see how much meaning it had to them. Or when you go to Japan and you see the tea ceremony, like, it's. There's something very cool about things that matter.

B (15:22)

Yeah, you're totally correct. So I think, like, in wrapping up this segment, it's. I think on one Hand Pantone has lost the plot. We've known this for a few years. I think Cloud Dancer is actually. It's better one of most. Because when is off white not on trend? You know, like, off white is as I'm wearing it as we speak. You know, like, it's really. Is not groundbreaking. So it's probably the best thing that they've done, but I don't really know what role they play in a very digital world where you're. We're speaking about moments and people can create moments that don't have to be planning out in a calendar year in advance. And probably the places to look are sites where people are doing research for what's upcoming.

A (16:06)

Like, Pinterest would be more interesting to me as a guy who's not. That would be. Color stacking would be interesting.

B (16:13)

Okay.

A (16:14)

Like, just knowing. You know what I mean? Like, there's.

B (16:16)

Well, our producer today is color stacking.

A (16:18)

Fluorescent green, orange, blue jean, leather, leather bag.

B (16:22)

I'm like, wow, this is a moment. This is a personal brand statement.

A (16:25)

It's very bmx.

B (16:26)

So next up is Lululemon's CEO steps down. And I just, I hate to say it, I think the art of the brand had a role in that.

A (16:33)

Well, we do know some board members checked out that viral video we did about it.

B (16:36)

So the swipe through the NFL Lululemon swipe through. Guys, apparently this is just like, you know, cone of silence, everybody. Cone of silence. So Deloitte does their consulting for Lululemon. And when I posted that swipe through the Lululemon NFL kind of hit piece, it was the day they were doing their all hands for like 2026 planning with Deloitte. And that post, like, was like. It was kind of like silence in the office. Cause it was going so viral and all the comments were like, so positive in our favor of, like, how stupid of a collaboration that was. While they're facing. It was like the week before was like the Wall Street Journal ad from Chip Wilson. And apparently everybody in the office, like the Deloitte office, was like, freaking out. Because all that I know, and I can say this because this is. Was not a confidential thing for the Recipe clients. All that I know is that Deloitte was largely in support of the strategic thinking that we were talking about in this swipe through. And the internal Lululemon team ultimately over. Yeah, yeah. Made the decision. And it was kind of a bit of like a. An eerily silent moment. So I want to say we played Apartment I don't know. I don't think we're happy about it. I think, in fact, actually, when I think about this, I'm, wow. It's actually crazy how much culture really is determining livelihoods.

A (17:54)

When you lose the founder who builds the brand and you replace it with a board from a public company that, that seeks out some sort of celebrity CEO that doesn't know how to build a brand, just knows how to manage a monopoly.

B (18:06)

Is he a celebrity?

A (18:07)

Well, there's this whole cult of CEO celebrities now where they kind of. I did some articles on it, on how like Walmart is promoting CEOs who started on the floor.

B (18:16)

Yeah, right.

A (18:17)

Home Depot is doing it in that way as well. But a lot of the big public companies kind of go and find that CEO who looks like a celebrity who makes all that money, and they really aren't effective at championing a brand.

B (18:29)

This article or this headline broke in the Wall Street Journal, which is fascinating because Chip Wilson, the original founder of Lululemon, literally purchased a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal to do a hit piece to Lululemon. So Wall Street Journal is getting kind of these embargo deals to get these, like, headlines on Lulu. Surprise, surprise. Chip Wilson is very happy about the CEO stepping down. But what's interesting is the CEO, Mr. McDonald, helped secure Lululemon's position as a dominant player in Athleisure. The company's revenue nearly tripled during his time as CEO from 3.28 billion in 2019 to 9.61 billion in 2024. He he oversaw its expansion to a wider selection of products and helped grow its international footprint. So it's interesting from a standpoint of, because we're going to talk more about brand than just sales. And I think that's probably the most interesting takeaway as brand owners is sometimes when you actually have that ROI conversation. Sometimes ROI can be the death of what made you great in the first place. And it's why it's. Branding is an art and a science. Like, it's more than just numbers.

A (19:38)

I take it from an investor perspective that when I Look at the CEOs in this company's story, you've got founder who breaks in, does well, gets bought, disruptive person, right? And then you have a CEO that comes in and kind of stabilizes that for a while. And then usually, like some of these CEOs are very good at scaling. And that's not a bad time to buy into it because it'll scale. But, you know, after five years of scaling, there's concurrent brand destruction. Going on in the process of over expanding. And so the stock is, the stock went up after he was fired, but the stock has been going down 50%.

B (20:15)

But I think it speaks to your original idea on the quantum physics of branding. It's like when you're so obsessed about growth, that is profits, and you're just over obsessed about it, you actually lose something in the process. And with Lululemon, when you go into their store, like, yes, they have way more SKUs, which they can increase average order value. But what's fascinating is to me, the only people that really want Lululemon are children. And when the brand goes to the kids, it doesn't have that cool factor because they're not economically driving sales. Like they ask for it at their birthdays and at Christmas and maybe they get some extra, you know, pairs for dance in school. But like, that's not a model that can sustain globally.

A (21:03)

There's a fine line there that could be a discussion because young people usually set trends. So like, is it kids or is it teenagers? Because like when you read no, it's.

B (21:12)

Like nine, like eight, nine.

A (21:13)

So when it kind of goes below the kind of the teenagers and you got like 12 year olds and 10 year olds wanting it, then it's lost at school. Because I think a lot of young people adopt stuff or they used to adopt stuff before it became cool.

B (21:26)

Where it's actually an interesting conversation is to me, it's quite similar to Sephora. And I actually think these are warning signals for Sephora and Starbucks and Starbucks.

A (21:34)

And kids are saying, hey, I want a Starbucks, you know, sugar treat.

B (21:37)

Yeah, I wear makeup when we're on the show. Like, I have to wear makeup sometimes at work. I don't like love to wear makeup every day. I'm not like someone that has to, like, I can't leave the house without wearing tons of makeup. But like, I have no desire to go to Sephora anymore. Like, I don't. To me it's like, it's like I have to because one of the products I have to restock on, like, happens to be there. But I am not driven to discover anymore at Sephora because I just feel like everything is childish. I feel the same way about Starbucks. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't seem to me like somewhere where I want to go. Like, I will go. I won't look down on it if someone has a Starbucks cup. Like, I'm not like, I'm wearing Lululemon leggings right now as we're talking, but it's not where I'm like thinking about actively going to buy something. What's interesting about Lululemon and why it's plateauing is what all the kids want from Lulu are black leggings. Right. Because it's just such a staple in your wardrobe. But like, how many black leggings can you have? Right.

A (22:31)

I think they can have four or six, some of them.

B (22:32)

But. But my point is, is that when they've, when they've scaled to, they have a insane footprint and they're investing more and more into color waves that people don't want. And that's why it's like gone to the kids. Right. Like the kids will buy the bright pink and the bright blue scuba sweaters. But, like, that's not what the adults are looking for. Right. Like they're looking for like a different look and style. So Lululemon is lost because they're not really speaking to anyone. They're just producing products and hope it sells. Like, there's no, there's no, there's no core essence to the brand.

A (23:02)

This is why generally we don't like. And I especially don't like working with public companies because they're governed by shareholder valuation. That has to continue to grow.

B (23:11)

Yeah.

A (23:11)

And when your brand has been degraded because of bad decisions, sometimes the only way to fix it if you want long term. But most people aren't holding stocks for long term is you have to have a decline. You actually have to reorganize deep, dip down, and then come back up. But because they're always focused on quarterly growth, everything they're going to do is be designed to try to maximize sales. They're not going to be able to rehabilitate the brand. So Lulu is in a death spiral. I'd be buying shorts on that.

B (23:40)

I think the thing that is interesting.

A (23:41)

Not that I'm a financial advisor.

B (23:43)

Yes, true. You know what's interesting about your comment? When I think about Lululemon, to dig deep, I don't know who their customer is. You know, I see their stuff to me is very boring. There really isn't a distinct style. There isn't. When I see the store in the mall, it could be Uniqlo. It could be like it doesn't feel distinctly Lululemon anymore.

A (24:06)

You know what? I was thinking about this when we were doing the segment. Cause I walked by it when Lululemon started to grow, when it was like that very cool brand, I could not go in from my perspective.

B (24:16)

I was like, holy shit, that's so cool.

A (24:17)

But you know Why I found the people in there where there was something.

B (24:21)

That people paid and over educated. It was the Trader Joe's model.

A (24:24)

But they were also like successful in that. You can tell they had specialized in a difficult sport.

B (24:30)

Yes.

A (24:31)

Or they kept themselves very fit and they were kind of very kind. So Canadian, but accomplished, tough, kind people.

B (24:37)

Yeah.

A (24:38)

Right. And that's what I loved about. Now when I go into Lululemon, I feel like I'm dealing with. With mental health trauma cases left and right side.

B (24:44)

You know what you feel like is you just feel like you're being judged. You don't need it. You don't need to be. Yes. You feel.

A (24:49)

No, I don't. I don't find the people to be what Lululemon staff used to be. I think it's attracting a different type of person in there. And when I. When I chat with them, they're still told to be friendly. But I don't get that sense of when you were first going in there, it attracted a certain type of employee that was very committed to fitness and athleisure, but it had a kind coolness to it. Now I go in, I just feel like it's not the same people in there I'm interacting with.

B (25:15)

The thing with Lululemon that was interesting is that the brand used to be athletic first, and then they got into Athleisure. What was interesting about the style and the design of the brand is that you would go in there to get like compression shirts and sports bras and leggings. And then they started introducing styles that were a bit more comfortable, professional. But it was like it was novel to the brand. Like it was still focused on athleticism, but now the brand has turned into. It's for people who don't. That aren't pushing themselves that there isn't working hard. It's just like you don't want to get dressed and it's just like. It's like comfy clothes around the house. But that. That isn't where the brand was founded. And that's why a brand like Skims will win is that Skims is loungewear. Right. Like Lululemon is trying to get into all these different categories while trying to commit to none of them.

A (26:05)

I want Lululemon of the best products for the workouts that what that you do. That's what would attract me there. If it just becomes a generic fashion brand with stuff pouring in from China, that's not necessarily amazing anymore.

B (26:18)

No, it's not amazing anymore. I think the issue with Lululemon is that they lost sight of who they are and the wrong people got in control. And it was based on identity politics. And you can't have companies that are faceless that when the founder is no longer there, that doesn't align with the original views that came with the company. Because there's a lot of space for expansion and being more inclusive that could be very successful. Like when I look at yeti, Yeti is a great example of a brand that has insanely expanded, has gotten into storefronts. And even when we were at the, the Yeti store in Arizona last, I distinctly remember the woman that was working there. You wouldn't, you wouldn't peg to be like a Yeti. Like a Yeti. Like, who would work in a Yeti store more traditionally. Right. Like, she was, she was just not what you would expect.

A (27:10)

But because, But Yeti is for outdoors people. And why yeti, what succeeded is that Yeti didn't make it about being Republican. Yeti made it about. This is for people who love outdoors. And liberals and conservatives love going out outdoors. So they didn't double down on one side or the other. They just said, we're the best thing for you to use for outdoor stuff. And so the person in Arizona we met, she liked hiking, but she didn't have to look like.

B (27:36)

But that's my point is that brands can expand and to have customer types that don't. I'm not saying that Yeti is a Republican brand. I'm saying Yeti is more rugged. Right? Like, YETI is more like I'm going fishing in the back of the, the back of my pickup truck. It's not really about hiking because it's really heavy duty things that keep things hot and cold. It's more people that like camping than, like, because it's not really what you'd bring with you when you hike. Right.

A (28:00)

Like, it's not like metal, but it, yeah, the Yetis work. That's the key thing that I get from that brand is that if I put, if I put my coffee.

B (28:08)

The thing with YETI is it's about Yeti. It's not about all these other things. And like, that's the, like, that's the issue is that Lululemon is not. Is it's actually to me, something where I just actually want to stay away from, like, I put my hands up because I don't want to make it political. But the people that work there have. And I think more people don't actually want to enter that conversation than do. So people they. You don't feel like there's that. That you're not being pulled into the brand. You don't. The world building take another shot.

A (28:36)

You know what disappointed me because I thought was an opportunity for Lululemon as Kitten Ace and I think you know more about it. But they kind of had a branch where they were trying to move into more work, work leisure, you know, and they actually had some suits. I had bought a couple suits there, but I never saw that really take off. But I thought that could have been an interesting element.

B (28:55)

I'll tell you why.

A (28:55)

Okay, tell me.

B (28:56)

It was Chippy Wilson's wife, second wife. So that was because of like, Lululemon was growing so big and they were. There was just. It was too complicated and he saw a need for like, Chip Wilson wanted to move Blue Lemon more in that direction. Like have like suits and have. But like, because of the way the company was growing and growing and he. They exited and then they put more effort into Kit Nace. That's why Kit Nace had that, like, initial kind of like moment, because she went more into that and Chip had gone out of Lulu. But the right idea, wrong way of going about it. The thing to me with Kit Nace is the idea was so good, but it's actually an interesting alternative case study because the brand never grew. Like, when I go back and look at the site now, it looks like the same stuff that they have had 10 years ago. So there's no evolution to the brand, whereas Lululemon evolved too much. So it's actually kind of a funny comparison considering they were like sister companies.

A (29:53)

I think there's space to improve the business wear. You know, I love that you could buy a suit that you could actually squat down and pick something up in, as opposed to. To a lot of great suits. You don't have the mobility.

B (30:04)

Yeah, yeah, totally agree. So next, let's talk about Shopify. So Shopify launches Agentic storefronts, which is actually a really big deal. So I'm going to read you guys a little bit of this headline. So Shopify launched a new agentic storefront tool for brands. These storefronts will aim to help brands connect the dots between their sales and consumer interactions within AI platforms like ChatGPT and Perplexity. So basically the idea is that brands who are built on Shopify can integrate with ChatGPT, perplexity, Microsoft copilot on their own. And then basically the idea is like on the back end of your Shopify, you can toggle like on and off for them to do the integration now. So what does that mean? So it basically means that you can track the attribution of what's happening on ChatGPT. So ChatGPT, if you ask, so Victoria Beckham stuff, is on ChatGPT through this integration. So if you ask ChatGPT, that you need to restock her tinted foundation drops, it will send you the link, and you can buy the link through ChatGPT through the Shopify storefront. And what the problem has been is a lot of people are doing searches on ChatGPT, but there's been no attribution model from ChatGPT gives you this answer, and you can track it to a conversion. So really what this is doing is embedding the attribution. The core thing, though, to know is that the so agentic means agent focused. So AI agents. I know that. I'm not trying to mansplain. I just thought that was a really interesting word when I heard it out loud, and I wanted to just explain it so that it's stuck in your brain. So as you start seeing things that say agentic, you can go, camille, explain that to me. And it's agent focus. It comes from the root of agent.

A (31:46)

I think I get to change a tire on a car since the last time I spoke. But let's go on.

B (31:50)

Okay, jump in. The only thing I was going to say is that it's not actually fully agentic by the definition of it. And all that it basically means is we're getting closer to having AI agents do the entire purchase, purchase funnel transaction.

A (32:03)

It's got to come because essentially it's like an AI assistant, but better because I want to be able to say, hey, can you go pick up this list of groceries? Or do something like that? There's a trust element that I haven't seen yet, where if I develop a relationship with my AI of choice, I can give them my credit card number and feel like they can use it without it getting compromised. Like, do you. Can you get an AI agent that will take personal information, make you feel comfortable that it'll be protected, and then it can actually just go and buy it? I'm like, look, I need to get these three things delivered to my house for tomorrow. Can you get it to me? And then it's smart enough to come back and go, hey, look, that's not in stock. This is on sale over here. Can I. You know, like, you almost want to develop a relationship with it so it knows you well enough so it can make decisions in your absence to make things faster. And complete the transaction. Just like I. Well, we're seeing more and more when we call companies, the customer. Like I think in the last two weeks I've probably asked three different companies. The representative speaking to are you AI? And two of them said yes. Right. One person just had an amazing radio voice. She used to be in radio and so she was very compliment. But the other two were actually AI, but it's getting very close that you can't tell the difference. But they're asking questions that are quite intelligent. We just need, as consumers, we need an AI agent that can deal with that company.

B (33:17)

AI agent, that's the whole move is like, why am I talking to the AI agent? Why isn't my AI agent talking to your AI agent? Yeah, no, I know that's. I mean, that's obviously where it's going.

A (33:26)

And then we're going to be able to put bling on them and avatar.

B (33:29)

Get her a Chanel bag. My AI agent is the most chic out there. Well, I think that the. I mean, obviously great change is upon us. We are in a breaking news environment with this shit.

A (33:41)

Can I drop something in here in the middle just for our listeners? Just be very careful on your feeds because I was working with some AI founders over the week. The amount of videos that are coming up on Instagram and TikTok, LinkedIn and Facebook, it's almost about 20% of them are fake right now. If you see anything with an animal, a cute animal thing, it's almost 90% chance it's fake. If you see anything that's kind of protest related or government related, like there's a bunch of videos going on right now of ICE agents getting arrested and they're actually AI videos. And so there are companies and organizations on both sides of the spectrum that are paying a lot of money to have AI videos being put into our channels that are getting pumped from overseas. So they have bots that are pumping these videos so they can get over the hump and go viral. And they're completely fake, but they're affecting people's views on what's going on in the world. It's incredibly dangerous when it comes to elections. And that's why I wish I could say, like some of the other great podcasters, that this segment is sponsored by Ground News, which is this news agency that's sponsoring a lot of the podcasts that actually verifies stories, tells you what biases are and all that type of stuff. We're not yet sponsored by it, but I just want to say to Our people pay attention. These videos that get you upset one way or another or elicit big emotions, a lot of them are AI now masquerading as real.

B (35:00)

You just gave them free placement.

A (35:03)

Yeah, somebody's gonna afford it to. They're gonna sponsor us.

B (35:05)

We don't want sponsors. We get offered all the time for sponsors.

A (35:07)

No, no, I know, but I like Ground News.

B (35:09)

Okay, so you bring up a really good point. Actually, today, when we were pulling, when I was, like, watching the commercials that we're gonna talk about for Christmas, an ad came up on YouTube and it was such a good ad. There was this, like, he called himself a poop doctor, and he was talking about how people are walking around with up to 15 pounds of poop in their bodies. And then it went to a woman saying, like, yogurt and all. And then I realized I was actually captivated by the ad. I never watched these ads, and then I realized, like, 20 or 30, I'm like, this is all created by A.I. i don't even think this doctor is real. And just how good they've gotten at tapping into the human brain for selling a product and having a doctor talk and then having these visuals and then moving to a woman that's holding products and foods you eat every day. And it really is dangerous because you could easily get sucked into that, looking like it's medical fact, and then buying the products that who knows what's in.

A (36:05)

Them because they have such a short lifespan. You can launch a product, put a lot of money into it, and make a million bucks in two or three weeks, that they're actually using AI to copy faces, like famous faces and voices, so it looks like they're.

B (36:20)

Stephen Bartlett talks about that all the time. That, like, people are getting frauded, like, huge amounts of money. Because he, like, he always says on his podcast, the products that he uses, he puts real money into. So when these other companies are like, this is a Stephen Bartlett approved product. There's so much trust there with his audience.

A (36:37)

But the cycle is they can launch it, copyright it, do everything fake, make their money, shut it down, and it's all overseas.

B (36:44)

Well, I even had that happen to me with people getting, like, thinking that they're getting into. I was trying to bring them into a crypto circle. Oh, my God. Yeah. Because I talk about crypto all the time, guys. Like, I'm trying to bring you into crypto. Yeah, I know, but it's crazy. But I guess the core takeaway, though, from this is it shows you that we're. We've we have moved away from optimizing for search engines. So like when you're, if you're a company or you know somebody that's still spending serious money into SEO, how outdated that is? Because we are, we are now in aio, which is optimizing for AI agents and it's a breaking news environment. It's something to stay on top of. It's not as, you know, as simple as. Because where SEO had matured to. Yeah, go ahead.

A (37:30)

Where it resonates with what we say a lot is in a free market of AI, the AI is going to have to become better at finding real things and real differences. So it doesn't mean that you need to stop doing, you know, real stories, real content because the AI is going to be finding you for their customer. So you have to create a system in your business that allows it to be found. And it's not through fake AI stuff. It'll be through real community engagements, real people talking about you. Because AI will be able to pick out AI, see what real humans are. So you still need to double down on your own personal content creation.

B (38:04)

Well, no, it's, it's not still. You have to. And if you didn't, you're behind. The problem with SEO is that because of AI, it became so much easier for. Majority of these SEO agencies are in India and they could just chuck out like unlimited number of blogs with AI because everything was based on these search keywords.

A (38:25)

So.

B (38:26)

So the timing was actually good because it was quite impossible to get ahead unless you had invested in SEO a long time ago. Because the blog writing used to have meaning. Like someone actually had to write the blog and then nobody goes on blog websites anymore because they lost meaning. They don't say anything, they're just keyword filled.

A (38:44)

Substack is kind of a blog network, but now with video and everything. But it's.

B (38:48)

No, but it's not SEO. No, that's creating completely different. So substack, I did a whole article on it this week. There's just stimulation overload, right? Like you watch a video and your head is like floating around in all these different corners and it's like all these different visuals and it's exciting. But if you're actually trying to figure out like some deep shit you need to read and like substack is like is allow is moving people off of Instagram and TikTok because especially for influencers. I talked about this at this week when, like when the algorithm changes and you had a repeatable content format that was generating Hundreds of thousands of views, and it stops working. And that's your only source of revenue is through affiliate revenue, through like to know it or shop my. You have to protect that. So you have to move away from where you're not dependent on an algorithm change. So substack is, like, slower to build, harder to build, but it's a more intimate place where it's easier for you to sell to. Like, the core publications that I read from, when they link products, I'm more inclined to just buy it because I'm like, I'm actually. It goes back to that parasocial relationship. Like, I feel more connected to them when I read their words. Okay, so I want to get your thoughts on this. There was a scandal this week with Prada, and basically earlier this year, Prada had a huge scandal because they put. There's a really, like, a signature kind of design of an Indian sandal. I'm going to show it to you. Have you seen these shoes before?

A (40:10)

I think we looked at them. We were in. Was it Greece or whatever. That they're kind of like a Roman toe. I'm not sure if it's Indian only.

B (40:16)

But they're iconically Indian. Like, the whole point of this article is the reason why it's so controversial is it's like, it's from this. It's called kolapuri, and it's basically, they had men wearing them on the Runway, and people were like, how dare you take an iconic style from India and culturally appropriate it and put. Put it on their Runway? Anyways, it blew up. There's no way that it, like, impacted Prada sales because it was completely not offensive. And it was like, more salary to. Well, I mean, who knows?

A (40:44)

It could have been. I think there's a lot of guerrilla fake outrage campaigns out there that are tied to these things. Like, I think Sephora was like, if I was organizing a Prada thing, I would create a fake outrage cancel campaign to get it.

B (40:58)

Well, I think it goes back to Kim Kardashian's masterclass, right? Where she's. I don't even. You know, I think that's an interesting side conversation. I think that when you're in that position, especially when you're in fashion, like, how many places can you just constantly ideate from? Right? Like, a lot of these people that are in these design positions, like, they're historians, right? Like, they like to bring pieces and make it relevant again. So I think that it's less that it's like fake outrage. Is that more that there's certain outrage that they choose to care about versus not choose to care about.

A (41:28)

And moving forward, it's a topic we talk about a lot. You have to stop listening to the outraged people. There's like 100 or a thousand people who make their living trying to find something to be outraged about. And it doesn't work to follow that. You know, like Prada does something with an Indian sandal and says cultural. There's just a whole market of people who want to, who want to, who want to create outrage. But don't respond to that noise. Respond to the signal. Did your customers like them?

B (41:53)

No, but I'm not done the. I'm not done the headline. So what they had this initial outrage and then, so then what they did is they're making a limited edition collection of sandals in India inspired by the country's traditional footwear.

A (42:06)

Very smart.

B (42:07)

And they're selling for $930. And what they did is they partnered with two government backed production manufacturers. Like, basically they worked with two people. Oh, no, this is, this is their PR headline of like, this is India approved. It's Indian sanctioned. It's Indian. You know, we're happy. Everything is good. So. But it's going to be done in collaboration with Italian designers and shoemakers so that it's made to Prada standard, which is like, cough, cough. Why, we could justify the 930 price point. But my point is the way that you even started the segment shows that you, you plant something on the Runway, see if it gets the, the crazy headline, use it. Now they're selling 20,000 or 2,000 pairs of sandals, and they're going to be selling it at 40 different Prada stores worldwide. So they took a moment of controversy and turned it into an opportunity to sell product to me.

A (43:07)

That would be a plan I would build from the start. The whole thing from start to finish. Like, that's the kind of intelligent way. But if it wasn't a plan from start to finish, it was a, it was a good reaction by the CEO or whoever was in charge there. What I would say though, is it sounds like they focused on appeasement. Rather, what I would want to know is that $900 sandal, how much of that 900 bucks goes to the person making the sandal?

B (43:30)

But that's the best part of the headline is that what's so funny is.

A (43:34)

All they did was work.

B (43:35)

Fashion puck evoke. Everyone is like, oh, clap, clap, clap, Prada. You know, you're launching 2000. You've partnered with Indian government agencies. You know, yes, it's $930, but it's Prada. We expect nothing less. There's no mention of the, like, how they're providing, like, pay parity.

A (43:54)

Like, that's why I'm on these sides of the arguments is that these writers, they think, oh, they appeased the outrage, but they didn't deal with the critical issue. First of all, government agencies in India, who knows what's going on there? Right. Because they're not known for their reliability. What I would have done is opened a factory there, paid, you know what I mean? Like, done something, actually helped the people rather than appease the cancel culture. But it's still a very good response to the strategy. And I'm sure they'll sell a lot of those sandals because of that press.

B (44:26)

Well, I mean, it speaks to their core customer. Right. Because their core customer feels more virtuous in their product purchase.

A (44:32)

Yeah. They don't care that 900 bucks.

B (44:34)

They don't ask those questions. Those questions are wrong.

A (44:35)

Three bucks goes to the work.

B (44:37)

But what's actually really interesting, though, as an. As an aside point is that isn't really Prada's problem.

A (44:43)

Yeah.

B (44:43)

It's kind of interesting because when you are high fashion and you're spending those levels on sandals that you could buy for 20 bucks in a market, it speaks to the identity of elitism. Like, they. They want to be elite. Right. So it doesn't really work with that customer because they're buying Prada. You know, like, if they wanted to support an Artesian, they can go on Etsy and get almost the same shoe that doesn't have the Prada sticker on it. It's actually interesting because our brains, like, we want the brand to be better, but the question is, like, what's the brand's problem?

A (45:16)

It was a masterclass in dealing with some controversy and reacting intelligently and making money off it.

B (45:22)

Right. Like, it's literally all press is good press. Example.

A (45:25)

It's another indicator of why you need good creative behind your camera campaigns. You need people who can think out of the box to do something to make an impact.

B (45:32)

Yeah.

A (45:33)

And if you have a small business, do something interesting.

B (45:35)

Yeah. All right, next, let's talk about a Canadian company is in headlines. Mac has partnered with Chapel Roan, which cue the song Pink Pony Club. The best song. Literally love that song. It's one of those songs where, like, I could be in a really bad mood and you just, like, put on Pink Pony Club and I'm, like, just twerking on my desk. You Know, like, I'm ready to go working on your desk, basically, just because I needed one more chance at everybody take another shot. World building, it's actually really interesting. So Mac Cosmetics, a Canadian company that is now owned by Estee Lauder, has partnered with Chapel Roan. And on the face of it, Chapel Roan makes perfect, perfect sense because she's always in this, like, dulled, white, extreme makeup. Feels very drag queen esque. She's very connected to the LGBTQ community, which has been literally max, you know, heart and soul and roots since the beginning. Everything aligns. But what's interesting is that Chapel Roan's fans are being really critical of it because she basically said that she wouldn't be doing brand partnerships. And she came out with the Rolling Stones and was saying that all the money goes to world building. That's why I'm saying no to every effing brand deal right now, because I'm like, does it fit in this world? No, H and M does not fit in this world. Also, F H and M, she told Rolling Stones in an interview last year, no amount of money is going to make me consider working with anyone. It has to be 100%. Right? So what's interesting is that her audience is using this Rolling Stone statement to say, oh, but Chapel Roan, why did you do this Collaboration? And I want to talk about, is this building on her world building? Is this an on brand moment?

A (47:29)

It just goes to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that it's about the paycheck. Like, whatever. I don't pay attention. I don't pay attention to what people say. I pay attention to what people do. Because Mac got purchased by Estee Lauder, and it went in this kind of clean girl narrative. So it went away from its roots. So for Chapel Rowe to say, oh, Mac is so in line with me. It's not. It wasn't. Unless they gave it some. They promised her that she could do it. Like, if I was Chapel Rowan, I'd create your own brand, right? But maybe Estee Lauder executives went to her and said, hey, we need you to bring this back to where it was, to create a world of where it was, that it could be intelligent. Because I agree that Mac stood out as a cool company that did things a little differently, and it was attractive to some audiences, and it kind of vanillized itself and became boring. And this is a way to bring it back into the public sphere.

B (48:19)

I feel very different about it. I mean, ultimately criticizing someone for taking paychecks, I don't. I Mean, at the end of the day, people need to make money. I think that this, to her credit, is 100% in line with the world that she's been building. Like, there isn't a version of Chapelron that it doesn't feel like entirely Mac or Pat McGrath. Like, every time we see her, it's, like, editorialized, very creative makeup. Like, she's never, like, looking chill. Like, she's always, like, really overdone. And Mac makeup was always more of, like, the makeup artist's brand. Right. And so, to me, it really does feel completely in line. Yes, there was a period where Mac drifted, but I actually feel like Mac for a long time was more irrelevant because that style more went out of fashion. So I think that Mac did what you asked of Justin Bieber, where, like, they kind of went away and they retreated to supporting makeup artists, and then they've kind of come back in a way that feels, like, relevant. So to me, Chapel Rowan is also in a position where when you're an artist, you're often at a high when you have an album come out or when you have a song come out. And she's right now in a lull because her great music was kind of the songs of the summer, and we're now, you know, we're getting into January. So she also has a reason to stay relevant in a way that feels on brand, and I do feel like that. Is this to your point on the makeup line? She, to me, is too new of an artist, where I don't feel like I have an established, like, feeling for her to have a line like, it would feel too premature. So I think this licensing feel is better than her coming out with her line right now. But I think the only thing is, it might have been cooler for it to be a Pat McGrath, but the Mac thing, like, it really does, it's in line with who her audience is and what they can afford.

A (50:07)

Chapel Row needs to make a Christmas song as fun as Pink Pony Club.

B (50:10)

I just feel like it's another opportunity to go Pink Pony Club.

A (50:15)

But we need some new, good Christmas songs on.

B (50:18)

A higher chair today. So I'm just, like, raising the roof. Raise the roof. Okay. Do you want to talk about McDonald's AI and then we'll move into the. Our charismas.

A (50:26)

Yeah, it's part of the same topic, I think, but yeah.

B (50:28)

All right, so we have a Christmas headline. McDonald's takes down their AI Christmas ad. So McDonald's Netherlands released and quickly deleted an AI generated holiday commercial titled the Most Terrible Time. Of the year. It was a 45 second commercial that basically broke down a chaotic Christmas scene. There was exploding trees, traffic jams with the tagline suggesting people hide out at McDonald's during Christmas. The backlash was immediate and fierce. The Dutch really didn't like it and viewers were calling the visuals soulless, creepy and demonic due to the uncanny effect of the AI generation. So I think it's a really interesting angle. I've got my own approach because I had some brands that sent me some CGI edited creatives. But why don't you kick it off?

A (51:17)

So watch the commercial. There are many other very successful Christmas commercials that spoke about Christmas being stressful or families fighting or the way this was done was more over the top. But a lot of the themes came from Christmas vacation. Like there was some humor to it. Right. But I think what we've seen is this is kind of the first one in a few years and that kind of outrage council culture is much more, is much more hearable. And so as soon as it comes out, people start posting right away like there are people who are dying to make content to criticize things. And so when you make a commercial, you as a leader have to know there is going to be a cadre of people who are waiting to criticize it because it benefits their audience, their listenership and all of that. The commercial is actually kind of funny and it's not unlike what's been done in the past, but they choked and they just quit. And that's what you can't do as a leader. Because although I don't think McDonald's is a refuge for me at Christmas. Right? But them making fun of Christmas being hectic, but there's a place you can go where it's always the same. That theme from a human behavior perspective probably worked because when people were having a whole freak out during Christmas, they see a McDonald's, they might be inclined to go in there. So sometimes you have to pay attention to the signal and not the noise. I think there's a lot of noise that comes from the cult, the cancel influencers who make content to criticize it right away. Yeah, but the noise. It might have turned out that more people went to McDonald's over the season, but I think I don't know what happened behind the boardroom because I didn't think it was offensive. But there's lots of offensive stuff in the world about Christmas. This wasn't offensive. This was just saying the season is nuts and things go crazy and you can go into a McDonald's and get something that gives you some calm.

B (52:50)

I feel very differently about this. I think the issue with AI is that it allows decisions to be executed very quickly without much weight and it allows people to not make on brand decisions, decisions. And I don't disagree with you that the Christmas season is stressful. Like all those things are correct. It just feels like it, it seems like a dystopic version of McDonald's and like it's not on brand to McDonald's. And if, if this was a full blown commercial like it just, it would have never gotten to the point of like casting the people getting those themes, paying for that commercial. But because it's, it's free to do it on nano banana 2.0 someone can create what looks like a full blown commercial production and put it on social media. And it, it doesn't, it doesn't at all feel like McDonald's. It feels like, it feels like what someone would do that is like a YouTuber talking about you can use a programming to, to do an ad and like it look like it have a McDonald's feel but like it'd be completely not McDonald's.

A (53:48)

You have to make sure you're listening to your target audience because there's a bunch of people that are going to go on and call it AI Slop. And it might be, but I've seen commercials that are successful that have garbage acting. They're. It's like it's written by somebody in grade three but it worked right? And in today's world where people are fast moving, they like AI there's a lot of people accustomed to it. It might have been the right commercial but they might be listening to the wrong person. People can call it AI Slop, but why would you ban a commercial?

B (54:13)

But to me I like, I'm not. I actually think what they're getting at is when you watch this commercial it's, it's brand death by a thousands cuts. It's someone that's in a decision making position that's wanting to do their own creative, creative act without it actually being in line with the brand. And because it requires so little budget to do it, you can like how much more you have to be protective over your brand because it's easy. It's so easy to do things that, that it could just to me just. It doesn't make sense for the McDonald's universe.

A (54:43)

They've been doing some interesting things at McDonald's. They're Happy Meals, non Happy meals. It makes sense to me in a short, short attention span world, make things fast, get things going so that people remember to buy from you. It's, you know, like it's a divergence from the commercials that I love, which tell stories that have meaning, that are beautifully executed. But when it comes to sales, I don't know which one is going to work or not in the future because the world is moving towards.

B (55:07)

I think that you're missing the point. Like when you watch the commercial, like, forget about AI being an easier way to execute ideas. When you walk the. The commercial, does it make you want to go to McDonald's or buy from McDonald's?

A (55:20)

But I don't buy from McDonald's. That's what I'm saying is that I.

B (55:22)

Think probably a lot of I don't drink Coca Cola. We're about to talk about amazing Coca Cola commercials. That makes me want to go buy Coca Cola.

A (55:28)

But we'll speak to that. Whether or not it works for Coca Cola customers. I'm saying the people criticizing this McDonald ads, I don't think a lot of them are McDonald's customers. I think they're elite journalist type people who want to have opinions to be relevant and so are looking for something to be relevant. But the person who's going on and buying Happy Meals or big Macs at McDonald's aren't the people who are writing those articles. Right. And that's what I'm saying is this might work for their customer, but they buy.

B (55:55)

I don't think it was at all about headlines. I think that someone posted it and within 20 minutes there was like 300 comments of like, what the fuck is this? Is this a joke? What are you doing? This is so dark. I hate this. What are you. And because it was just such a slog and it wasn't off off brand commercial, it just made more sense for them to delete it than for them to keep it up. Like, I think that it was there. There's nothing positive to the commercial. It's. It's literally a scene by scene of this like dark, dystopic world where like everything goes wrong.

A (56:25)

No, it wasn't dark or dystopic. It was capturing the craziness of the Christmas season. Like I watched it this morning. It wasn't, it wasn't dark. It was just. But I think the. I think what really upset, upset people is that it took a Christmas Carol that's positive. And then they said it's the most dysfunctional time of the year or whatever it was. Right. Rather than the most wonderful time of the year that's probably where the error was is they, they changed the commercial, the, the A cherished Christmas song and made it negative. Because if you say it's the most horrible time of the year, you're saying Christmas is a horrible time, as opposed to the commercials kind of showing how Christmas can be stressful. I think the error might have been in, in changing the lyrics of the song.

B (57:08)

I, I don't know. I mean, like, shit's catching fire.

A (57:13)

It's like Christmas vacation. In many ways, one of the most popular movies ever, but. Yeah, but, like, we wouldn't have come up with this campaign, but never. But I wouldn't have canceled it after 300 comments from people who are looking to, to complain about everything.

B (57:25)

I mean, I just literally, I don't know. I, I, I'm shocked that we're having an argument about this. Like, I, like, at the end, it's when you, when you talk about storytelling and you go to the end of the commercial, like, usually there's a sense of, like, even the ones we're going to talk about, like, there's something sad or something that happens, and then there's, like, a moment of, like, warmth that, like, brings you together and makes you feel like the core point of, like, where you want to have the feel, like, feel the most emotion is what? They rush it. They rush the most.

A (57:50)

It's like, I'm not saying this is an ad that you get an award. I agree with you. They rush the McDonald's thing at the part. It's AI. It's over. AI. It's, it was cheap and easy. I'm just saying it didn't need to be canceled, but it's nowhere near the kind of masterpieces that are in Christmas commercials.

B (58:07)

No, I mean, like, it's not offensive. Like, it's not hateful, but, I mean, it's not good. So I, if. And McDonald's, I, I do feel like should have a standard of good.

A (58:18)

No, but that controversy might have led to money. Like, it might lead to sales. Sometimes crappy things get controversial, you know, and they can work. It's not, it's divergent from what we're going to talk about.

B (58:27)

I guess we'll never know because it.

A (58:28)

Got canceled by the Dutch.

B (58:30)

By the Dutch.

A (58:31)

They don't screw around. The Dutch tell you exactly how they feel right away.

B (58:34)

I love the Dutch, and they're so to the point. Okay, so Christmas movies. What's your number one?

A (58:40)

Can I tell you a Dutch Christmas story?

B (58:42)

Okay.

A (58:42)

Can I do it? When I was in NATO headquarters, we would rotate through Christmas parties during the Christmas season. And so because of NATO headquarters we had kind of split Spanish, Italian, British, American, Canadian and the Dutch. And there was just a cultural element that I used in my thesis later that when we went to the. We went to the Italian Christmas party that was run by the Italian contingent. It started two hours late and there was enough food to feel to fill a church for like 2020 officers who went there. And just totally different dynamic. But the Dutch one I'll never forget is my first Dutch Christmas party. And so we go to the person's house and the instructions were so almost rude. You cannot get into the house if you arrive past 7pm and I love the Dutch and the Dutch tell me they love Canadians. But. And then we went in the food, it was like there was a, like there was a math wizard who had planned out the exact portions for every person who attended. Like there was four corners of sandwiches with the crust cut off and, and if you wanted more it wasn't there. And at 9:30 everybody was kicked out. Like it was like we didn't even start eating until 9:30 on the Italian one. But there was so much food coming in anyhow.

B (59:55)

That's a great story. That's a great story. What is your favorite Christmas movie in.

A (60:00)

Terms of full length movie? A Christmas Story. I always like, I just love the voice of the narrator and the Christmas story and like a kid, you know, progressing through Christmas from a kid's version of the world. Yeah, right. So the adults were the players but you got to see the world through the eyes of the child. Right. And I haven't seen a lot of Christmas movies where the whole movie is kind of told through the eyes of like a 12 year old that had like some really cool, cool. Like it was beautifully done. If you haven't seen the Christmas Story, it's freaking hilarious. I love it and always made me want to get Chinese food on, on Christmas Eve after. After that thing. But the one that It's a Wonderful Life, it's amazing. But there's one if you haven't seen it, it's called Nester Nester, the Long Eared Donkey. And I just love listening to that with my kids. It's like a claymation kind of like the old beautiful claymation ones. But it kind of sits as an outsider. Yeah, it was made by the same people did Little Drummer Boy. But Nestor the longer Donkey just has like themes of parents sacrifice, being an outcast and being welcomed in, which is really kind of what religions are in many in Many ways. Like you're. There's parental sacrifice, there's being an outcast, finding a welcome, welcoming community and doing something that's. That's inspiring.

B (61:12)

That's literally like the, the Jesus story. Yeah. When you think about it, that's kind.

A (61:16)

Of what they're doing. But that it's. It. It's a movie that, you know, if it doesn't make you a little misty eyed, like I don't think you're a human because it's so beautifully done. And Nesta reminds me of Moneypenny in your arms there with her long ears.

B (61:26)

Mishi. And what's your favorite actually from the same production company. Mine is Santa Claus is Coming to town. The 1970 like Claymation version. I thought Mrs. Claus was like the most beautiful girl in the world when she was young. And I, and I loved the. When they were like teaching them how to walk, like just put one foot in front of me.

A (61:50)

It just tells it like music and voice. Because the narrator. The narrator was amazing too. The voice. That one like as soon as you said that, I relived that whole.

B (61:59)

I just like when I think of. I mean obviously Elf is great and the Grinch is great, but there was just such a nostalgic part of my childhood that is just. It is so emotionally warm when I think back to watching those movies because they were like. My mom was so funny. She would. I mean I am old enough that Blockbuster existed that we would like. She would rent those at Blockbuster every year. And then because it wasn't unlimited TV back then, I watched those just so many times.

A (62:29)

So I am old enough that when I watch Christmas movies there wasn't Blockbuster. That's crazy.

B (62:34)

Are they black and white?

A (62:35)

No, but what you had to do is you would sit in your. I just. There was like a TV Guide and I remember being a young person, I've always loved Christmas. And you would just be. I would be combing through in December hoping that there was a Christmas special on in the evening like at 7 or 7:30 or 8. Because you couldn't order your. Your TV. It was pre scheduled and so I would spend every day saying is there a Christmas special coming on? And you get Snowman and. But those Claymation ones always inspired me. Is that the one with the wizard guy?

B (63:06)

Yes. That's why they. That's what they teach. I love that.

A (63:11)

I also love the Happy New Year version with Rudolph Snowland.

B (63:15)

I left all of those movies, animation ones.

A (63:17)

I always use the Land of Broken Toys.

B (63:20)

Iing love those movies very quickly what's your favorite Christmas song?

A (63:24)

It's the Pogues. Oh God, that fairly vulgar one. But I always like that. And I. And I'm a sucker for that King Cole. So I, I go to the Pogues version of Happy Christmas. I love John Lennon's Happy Christmas.

B (63:37)

Oh yeah, that one's a great song.

A (63:38)

That's beautiful.

B (63:39)

I too would be. Number one is all I want for Christmas with you. Justin Bieber remix with Mariah Carey. And then number two, it's the best. I just, I love when he comes in, it just like, it just gets me going. Like it's woohoo. And then the next one is the Hawaiian Christmas, the mele kaliki makai. I just think that one is so fun and a fine Hawaiian Christmas day. Okay, so next is we're gonna do a little fun holiday segment on our favorite Christmas commercials and then just kind of breaking down. Why? So that we're continuing to learn in the holiday spirit.

A (64:15)

First of all, I think Christmas is one of the. It's such an interesting holiday in that they're able to extend it to a month.

B (64:21)

It's the best for that reason. And in Canada, almost two, because Thanksgiving is in October.

A (64:27)

But it fits perfectly into kind of Western culture, which became a bit of a consumer. Consumer sounds bad. But also a gift giving.

B (64:35)

No, it's 100% a consumerism culture. Yeah.

A (64:37)

But you've got a month of creating a feeling that leads up to kind of a, you know, like a finals, which is Christmas day. Like the anticipation of kids.

B (64:46)

And it's not one person. Like, it's not like it's, you know, your birthday, but it's like it's all of us. Like we're all celebrating on the same day. So it's. You have that shared value, that sense of community where everybody is, is in the joy from.

A (64:58)

And from a brand perspective, it's a way of tracking time because you can remember your first Christmas as a child, you can remember your first Christmas with a child, you can remember first Christmas away from your family. Right. Like it's an anchor point in the history of our lives. And so it really brings memories. And it's just an amazing opportunity to tell stories about your brand that speaks to your customers. And there's been some amazing commercials over the years that I think capture what Christmas is about. And that's what we'll talk about today.

B (65:27)

I mean, mine is really tied to kind of the case study of Christmas because, I mean, I think it's really fascinating that Coca Cola actually created the modern Idea of Santa like that, like the jolly like fat man and the red and the white suit. No, it was Coca Cola. And that's why when you actually it's what's really fascinating is for how much we have to travel for work tracking over the past few years how much more normal Christmas is coming in cultures that you would have never seen that. So when we were just in Japan, I was talking with Koyo and they're, they're a non Christian country and like how big Christmas markets are becoming. Like they have their first kind of European Christmas market. There was Christmas trees everywhere. When we were like in the Middle east, you know how much there was Christmas in Egypt and in Oman and Dubai. And it's, it's because Christmas is, is no longer only about that association with religion. It's this kind of, this gift giving, it's this bright colors and in many ways really kind of created by this idea of Coca Cola. So my favorite commercials are the Coca Cola ones. Here's the story. So before Coca Cola, Santa was a mess. Santa didn't used to look like Santa. He showed up as a thin, stern, bishop like figure, elfish troublemakers, brown, green or muted red coats. Sometimes creepy, sometimes moralizing. The there was no single dominant image. Santa existed, but he wasn't branded. Coca Cola in the 1930s had a business issue. They were seen as a summer drink. So they wanted winter relevance. So Christmas was emotional, nostalgic and universal. So they didn't invent Santa but standardized.

A (67:06)

Him and put them into their colors.

B (67:08)

Yes. So enter Handon Sunblom. So in 1931, Coca Cola hired illustrator had on some San Blomm to reimagine Santa for print ads. It wasn't to make Santa famous, but make him feel human, warm and trustworthy. So they were. He was older but energetic. He had a big belly, rosy cheeks, red suit with white fur matching to your point, Coca Cola's brand colors. And he was laughing, relaxed and approachable. So he was always seen drinking a Coke, resting, reading letters and connecting with children. And they basically created the personality of Santa as we know today. And Coca Cola did what brands do best. It was the same Santa, the same personality, the same emotional cues. But it was repeated every Christmas globally for decades. So they didn't chase the culture but instead trained it. So Coca Cola is in fact in charge of the Santa we know today.

A (68:05)

It's very interesting thinking because you know, the Brits love Father Christmas. The Germans, the Dutch. There was Kris Kringle. But Kris Kringle some said was Actually kind of not as friendly of a person. The old stories like would come in and take things the kind of naughty or nice. Kris Kringle was kind of a nightmare to kids, you know what I mean? Like if you're not good, like he's going to come and do something.

B (68:27)

And am I wrong in that? There's also something like racialized to it too with Chris Gringo.

A (68:31)

I don't. Not that I'm wrong.

B (68:32)

I think it was something to do with like the soot and like they'd be like covered in.

A (68:36)

I don't think so.

B (68:36)

I'm gonna search it up. Keep going though.

A (68:38)

The best Christmas commercials though, when you watch them and just go on YouTube and kind of look up. Some of the best Christmas commercials are generally emotional and they put way more time into it. But it allows an opportunity for a company to make the customer the hero again. And the product is just a guide there. And Chevrolet does amazing job every year. Chevrolet is usually made an amazing job that reminds usually parents how important Christmas is by like there's a couple of their commercials. If you do Chevrolet Christmas commercials, there are a few tear jerkers there that.

B (69:10)

Talk about every year they do the tear jerkers.

A (69:12)

Did you see the one with the.

B (69:13)

Woman when she had she adventure and.

A (69:15)

She brought back and then the only thing.

B (69:17)

And there was one this year too. But the only thing for me is it's a question that I face like it makes you feel in those commercials. But I don't find Chevrolet is relevant. You know, I mean like I don't. I feel like they do these great storytelling commercials but I don't know if they're like killing it in the, in the selling game.

A (69:32)

It's long run because they have, they have a lot of loyalty and it changes once you have kids too, when you've had kids. So Christmas changes when you have kids and you're in the middle of aging parents and, and young kids for what happens. And then the memories come. So Chevrolet just goes to its core audience of those. Those families that have to pickup trucks for work or something like that. And the memories that are there and like I love Chevrolet. And then there's this British company, John Lewis. They've almost become the specialists in amazing Christmas commercials and they're worth watching. I like the Monty, the Penguin one, but there's the bear and the hair. There's so many. They almost kind of channeled Beatrice Potter themes in some cases.

B (70:10)

Well, I. This John Lewis, they had a bunch of really good commercials because they were I guess like A British department store. My favorite was, like, the Long Wait. Like, not my favorite of the ones that. That we pulled. The long wait from 2011 was really cute. And it's this boy that's, like, so eager for Christmas. And you, like, assume it's like, so. Because he wants to get presents, but he wakes up and all his presents are there, and he actually goes into his closet and pulls out a present for his parents. And it's like, you know, when things are. You can't wait to, like, give a great gift.

A (70:41)

No. And there was that change at the end that the audience goes, wow. And then. And then bam. Just as they're feeling. Just as they're feeling that dopamine come over them, then. Then it reveals who did the commercial. And so now, physiologically, you're like, oh, my God, that's so cool. And then you see the name of the brand.

B (70:58)

Yeah, right.

A (70:59)

And it's really good. That's why I love. There's one. It's called Doc Morris, but it's called the Kettlebell Did. I don't know if you had a chance to watch that.

B (71:05)

So cute.

A (71:06)

Like, it's worth watching. It's actually just a great short movie. I'm not going to ruin it for everybody by telling you about. But. But look up the one on the kettle ball. Because.

B (71:13)

Kettlebell.

A (71:14)

Kettlebell, Right. There's like an exercise. Doc Morris.

B (71:17)

Doc Morris.

A (71:17)

It's just. But this is what we need to do in our businesses all the time. Create stories that make meaning about your product.

B (71:24)

You know, what you don't remember, which is so funny, is that we didn't know, but we took that exact theme years ago for one of the gyms that we were branding. Remember? We was. The whole idea is like, you want. Right.

A (71:36)

That was a suggestion, and I hadn't seen it yet.

B (71:38)

I know, I know. And it was.

A (71:39)

It was do a commercial. So. Okay. But then we'll ruin the commercial for people. But. Yeah, that's interesting.

B (71:43)

But that's the whole thing, is that these commercials, you take a common problem and you put a storyline around it so that it makes you feel.

A (71:51)

And you help your customer get to where they want to go.

B (71:54)

You really pulled the storytelling ones, which. The core takeaway for your brand to learn is it shouldn't cost calories. Like, it should be really simple to understand. And if you can evoke emotion without needing to, like, to burn too many calories to figure out what's happening, that's when you really connect.

A (72:12)

Yeah. It's not about selling. It's about evoking. It's about evoking feeling that's synonymous with Christmas. And just my last one is if you look up the 1914 Sainsbury's Christmas one. The reason why I love this one, it's actually a true story. Most people don't know.

B (72:27)

Yeah, I know. Yeah. I do know this, though.

A (72:29)

In World War I, the British and the Germans, facing each other on the trenches the day before Christmas, actually got out of their trenches and played soccer together, exchanged gifts. And it's. It's. It almost looks like Dunkirk or, you know, one of those other cool movies. It's worth watching that commercial because it's beautifully done and it's just a small product placement at the end in terms of the chocolate. But. Yeah, but it also just gets me upset because of how many people die in wars while other people are. Are back there. Because the store. The story after that commercial is that they actually had to replace the front line with those soldiers because they. They humanized each other. They didn't want to kill each other after that Christmas. They had to put fresh troops there so they could keep just slaughtering young men. But amazing commercials.

B (73:11)

Such a good commercial.

A (73:13)

What's your favorite one?

B (73:14)

Well, my favorite one was I actually just did, like, full blown. It's like. It's like 20 minutes on YouTube, and it's the best Coca Cola Christmas commercials from past to present. And I just. The first one was from the 70s, where it's like everyone's singing like, I'd like to give the world buy a little Coke.

A (73:32)

That's amazing.

B (73:33)

And then it goes into the Christmas tree of everyone was singing together. Love that one. And then it was the really cool one where it's like all the trucks, the red trucks, like, almost like sleighs are coming into town. And as the trucks are driving by, like, all the house's lights turn on. It feels very like Polar Express, kind of like they're making it become Christmas. So I loved those.

A (73:53)

You know, Coca Cola actually got trucks and drove through communities like that.

B (73:57)

Really?

A (73:58)

Because at first they just made a video of it, but then they started traveling around and actually doing it like that as a man.

B (74:03)

Well, it's interesting because again, like, when you. When you analyze, you know, the best brands, they understand how to connect to their original brand. So the reason why they created Santa in the 30s is they wanted people to buy Cokes during the cold weather. So all of those ads make you want to have a Christmas Coke, right? Which is.

A (74:21)

They got the polar bear, too.

B (74:22)

After that. Yeah. The polar bear they also created too, which was super iconic. That was in the 90s then. My other favorite commercial, I think also because of that nostalgia factor. I'm just gonna play it so you guys can hear it. Cause you guys will know exactly the commercial. But I don't pay for YouTube cream. I loved that commercial when I was a kid. It was all the Hershey kisses and then they be. And they're in a Christmas tree format. And then they are belles doing the song. And it. It just. My grandmother always had a bowl of like Hershey's. The kisses that are in the Hershey's colors in her little like crystal bowl on her table downstairs. And Hershey kisses to me were always such like a Christmas chocolate. Cause I hated the orange. Remember the orange chocolates that you like throw against.

A (75:04)

Everybody thought was an amazing gift. And it was really like, it's.

B (75:08)

So if you think.

A (75:08)

You know what the other thing. The other thing was like the gold chocolate money.

B (75:13)

Yeah. And they were orange flavored too.

A (75:15)

No, they were just normal chocolate. But they were in the stockings at the time. We actually used to get an orange tangerines in our.

B (75:22)

My mom gave me that too.

A (75:23)

Yeah. Like, there was something cool about. About that. Going back to Coke. They. They're some sort of master class like that. I like to buy the world of Coke.

B (75:30)

Oh, yes.

A (75:31)

Really channeled into that kind of 1970s peace thing. Right.

B (75:35)

Well, that song.

A (75:35)

And so they made peace.

B (75:36)

But that song was a 1970s song. Yeah, I'd like to be the World. Yeah, we watched it in school. They had a whole program of all of those kinds of like, great songs. And I watched it in elementary school and like a lot of the stuff like taught kids about like, divorce is okay and. And that was one of the songs that was in that program. I wish I could remember what it was.

A (75:59)

See, people would try to cancel that today because it took a peace song and. And commercialized it. But it actually made that song more popular and I think made people kinder.

B (76:07)

I know whatever that program. If anyone remembers what that program is, send it to me. Because I loved. I loved the songs that came from it. It was really well written, well produced. Did you have a. Did your mom at Christmas? Like, I would in my stocking. Like, if we needed toothpaste that week. Like, it was in my stocking. If we needed deodorant, like, that was like. It was like non Christmas ass things just so that the stocking could get like more fat.

A (76:29)

I loved how my parents would do stockings but, you know, I was thinking about this morning because, like, I remember waking up, up and there would be like a. A car racing track. Right. Which, you know, some. But back then, you didn't. You didn't have everything. Like, you just like, I found even, like, in raising my kids, they just always had what they wanted, pretty much. And so Christmas is like, it went from one nice present to now you got to get them six presents. Like, it seems to have less anticipation because people have more stuff. Like, back in the day, it used to be the one time you could get that special thing that you would save up for for somebody. Like, it's Christmas.

B (77:06)

I used to, like, love making my Christmas list and sending it off to Santa. I was totally one of those. Like, I milked it longer. Like, I just. Even though my friends told me Santa wasn't real, I was like, holding on until like, 10 or 11, because Santa gave me, like, exactly what I asked for.

A (77:19)

Yeah, I like getting things that I didn't ask for as a surprise. But when you. When the listeners are reviewing the best Christmas commercials from a business perspective, relate it. Try and think about how you can tell a story about your business or yourself that has meaning, that makes people feel.

B (77:34)

Evoke emotion.

A (77:36)

Right. And you help guide them to the emotion they want to feel, and then they'll come to you. Right.

B (77:40)

You know, it's a fun fact that the Range Rover Evoque. Victoria Beckham designed it with Range Rover and she called it Evoque because she wanted the car to. To evoke emotion.

A (77:53)

What emotion? Just generalized emotion. Because the Range Rover was a jeep in the British Army.

B (77:58)

No, I think the evoke makes me.

A (78:00)

But what does it evoke?

B (78:01)

I really liked it evokes something. Style.

A (78:04)

I would just ask the next question. What evoke?

B (78:06)

You know, like, it's just. It's like a little fun. Party. Party fact. Like when you're, like, in a car, maybe you're carpooling and you pull behind an evoke, you can go, hey, can I.

A (78:15)

Can I give another rogue lawyer fun fact? Because when you were talking about at the beginning, you said, whatever our first segment is, they went down a road less traveled or something like that. I think in the Pantone thing, you meant it and I wrote it down. But just in case, you know, when people say, if you come to a fork in the road, take the path less traveled.

B (78:32)

Is that what you should do, though?

A (78:33)

Well, that's what they say, right? Take the path less traveled. I get it. But if you're lost, don't do that.

B (78:38)

Yeah, never do that.

A (78:38)

If ever you're lost and you come to a fork in the road, turn around. Because civilization always goes against the forks in the road. The road's spread out by forks. So if you're ever lost and you want to get back to civilization, if you get to a fork in the road, go back down the other road.

B (78:53)

I feel like people are more likely to be stopped at a red light beside an evoke than they are to be.

A (78:58)

You guys tell us which one was more useful to me wandering in the.

B (79:01)

Wild, and you come up too, and like, who the hell is telling them to take the. The path that no one's walked down?

A (79:07)

Well, because it makes any sense. Well, that's where adventure and self discovery. No, it's just.

B (79:12)

It's a metaphor, you know, to, you know, take the. Take the road that's hard.

A (79:17)

And if you're in the forest and you're lost and you find a river, follow the flow of the river down. Because settlements are always.

B (79:22)

Do you have anything better just so that we can like, actually, like, wrap them up with.

A (79:26)

That was amazing. This discussion's been amazing. People are gonna definitely vote for me over you there.

B (79:32)

I mean, honestly, guys, if anyone is stuck on the island, bring Philip. If you want to survive, bring Camille. If you want to be entertained, don't shopping on the island. Well, guys, I hope you have an awesome week. We look forward to seeing you next week. And I just got a really nice message from Erin Levin that said if I asked everyone to reach out, and she's reaching out, saying, like, I actually listened. So, Erin, thank you for sending a nice hello. And guys, like, we just. I would love to hear from all of you. So have a great week. And if you come across good brand shit, send it our way. We love this shit.

A (80:00)

We'll feature it.

B (80:01)

Goodbye.