Why Your Podcast Isn’t Making Money—And What To Do Instead

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Art of the Brand Episode: Why Your Podcast Isn’t Making Money—And What To Do Instead
Release Date: April 17, 2025
Hosts: Camille Moore and Phillip Millar
Podcast Description:
Welcome to the #1 podcast for business owners on Branding and Strategy. Join Camille Moore and Phillip Millar, two internationally recognized marketing phenoms who tell it like it is. WTF is a Brand anyway? Where is most of the marketing budget going? In this Podcast, Camille and Phillip share their intel and insights without fear of being fired from corporate jobs. Enjoy honest conversations and learn insider secrets about brand disasters, marketing malpractice, and top industry guests, as well as inspiring case studies of companies who’ve killed it. Marketing is storytelling, baby.

---

Introduction

In this episode, Camille Moore and Phillip Millar delve into the common misconception that launching a podcast is a direct path to monetization. They unpack the realities of podcast profitability, emphasizing the importance of viewing podcasting as a branding and engagement tool rather than a straightforward revenue generator.

The Challenges of Monetizing Podcasts

Camille kicks off the discussion by highlighting the fierce competition in the podcasting landscape. She states, “There are now 80 million podcasts, and tons of distractions” (03:04), making it exceedingly difficult for new podcasts to gain traction and, consequently, generate income. Camille underscores the statistical reality that monetization is heavily skewed towards a select few.

Phillip reinforces this point, sharing a critical statistic: “The podcast industry generates $1 billion in ad revenue, with the top 10 podcasts accounting for 35% of the revenue” (01:37). He further explains that “the top 2% of podcasts take almost 80% of all revenue” (01:04), illustrating the disproportionate distribution of ad dollars. This data reveals that while there is substantial money in podcast advertising, the pathway to personal profitability is narrow and challenging.

The Role of Podcasting in Branding and Thought Leadership

Moving beyond direct monetization, Camille and Phillip discuss podcasting as a powerful tool for building a brand and establishing thought leadership. Camille explains, “Podcasting is not solely about generating wealth or fame, but rather a platform for engagement with audiences” (01:53). She emphasizes that the true value of a podcast lies in its ability to foster deep connections with listeners, showcasing expertise and passion through long-form content.

Phillip adds, “The why is not to make money. The why is to create a platform and vehicle to capture amazing content that connects with your customer” (05:14). This perspective shifts the focus from immediate financial gain to long-term brand equity and audience loyalty. By consistently delivering valuable content, podcasters can position themselves as experts in their fields, which in turn can enhance credibility and support indirect revenue streams such as online sales or professional services.

Creating Effective Content: Consistency and Quality

A crucial theme in the discussion is the necessity of consistency and high-quality content creation. Camille notes, “Most podcasts don't even do 100 episodes” (02:56), highlighting the high attrition rate among podcasters. She argues that maintaining a steady flow of episodes is essential for building momentum and retaining listener interest.

Furthermore, Camille advises, “You need to invest in your ability to become a better content creator” (05:32), suggesting that podcasters should focus on refining their communication skills and delivering clear, engaging narratives. This investment not only enhances the listener experience but also strengthens the brand's authority and presence in the market.

Overcoming Social Conditioning in Communication

The conversation shifts to the psychological barriers that prevent effective communication, particularly among women in professional settings. Camille points out that qualifiers like “I think” or fears of offending others can significantly weaken one's message: “When you start with ‘I think,’ it’s a qualifier and it weakens the point” (07:26). She argues that such qualifiers dilute the impact of the content and hinder the establishment of authority.

Phillip expands on this by discussing the societal conditioning that encourages people to hedge their statements to avoid conflict: “Understanding that there are these social conditioning things that hamper real dialogue” (09:13). He asserts that being direct and assertive is crucial for building credibility and engaging audiences effectively. Camille reinforces this by sharing observations from her coaching experience, noting that qualified statements often alienate the target audience without adding value to the discourse.

Strategic Approach to Podcasting

In conclusion, Camille and Phillip advocate for a strategic approach to podcasting focused on branding, expertise, and audience engagement rather than direct monetization. They encourage podcasters to embrace controversy—not in a negative sense, but by confidently asserting their opinions and expertise. As Camille aptly puts it, “Being controversial is just saying something that asserts you as an expert” (12:26). This strategy not only differentiates the podcast in a crowded market but also fosters a loyal listener base that values the content for its authenticity and authority.

Phillip summarizes the essence of the discussion by emphasizing the importance of understanding the purpose behind podcasting: “You have to see it as part of your marketing budget and efforts, not as a distraction” (06:21). By aligning podcasting efforts with broader branding and marketing objectives, businesses can leverage podcasts as a powerful tool for long-term growth and audience connection.

Notable Quotes

• Phillip: “The top 2% of podcasts take almost 80% of all revenue.” (01:04)
• Camille: “Podcasting is not solely about generating wealth or fame, but rather a platform for engagement with audiences.” (01:53)
• Camille: “Most podcasts don't even do 100 episodes.” (02:56)
• Phillip: “The why is not to make money. The why is to create a platform and vehicle to capture amazing content that connects with your customer.” (05:14)
• Camille: “When you start with ‘I think,’ it’s a qualifier and it weakens the point.” (07:26)
• Camille: “Being controversial is just saying something that asserts you as an expert.” (12:26)
• Phillip: “You have to see it as part of your marketing budget and efforts, not as a distraction.” (06:21)

Conclusion

This episode of The Art of the Brand provides a candid exploration of the podcasting landscape, debunking the myth that podcasting is a quick path to monetization. Instead, Camille Moore and Phillip Millar present podcasting as a strategic tool for branding, audience engagement, and establishing thought leadership. They offer actionable insights on creating consistent, high-quality content and overcoming societal barriers to effective communication. For business owners and marketers, this episode serves as a valuable guide to leveraging podcasting for long-term brand success rather than immediate financial returns.

---

Timestamps

• 00:00: Introduction to the topic of controversy in content creation
• 01:04: Discussion on podcast monetization statistics
• 01:37: Phillip shares ad revenue distribution
• 01:53: Camille emphasizes the role of podcasting beyond monetization
• 02:56: The challenge of maintaining consistent podcast episodes
• 03:04: Camille discusses the saturated podcast market
• 05:14: Phillip talks about the true purpose of podcasting
• 05:32: Importance of building brand relationships through content
• 06:21: Viewing podcasting as part of the marketing budget
• 07:26: Social conditioning affecting communication
• 09:13: Overcoming fear of offending in professional dialogue
• 12:26: Embracing controversy to assert expertise

Transcript

[Alex]

Controversy is what you need. Like, you have to be controversial. And if you have this opinion and you're trying to create content that's going to work and it's going to do well, you have to just say it.

[Blake]

The why is not to make money. The why is to create a platform and vehicle to capture amazing content that connects with your customer, where your genius.

[Alex]

Is and how you can communicate it. So it's investing in the brand, and it's also investing in your ability to become a better content creator.

[Casey]

What a brand. What a brand. What a brand. What a mighty good brand. Say it again now. What a brand.

[Alex]

And roll. So I want to get a hot take. We do a lot of media coaching and podcast consulting and strategy, and there's two topics I want to cover. The first is monetization. We get a lot of asks, intrigue, and interest on when you ever suggest a podcast. The next stage is like, how can this make me money? And thinking about podcasting and profitability does not often go hand in hand. And you've got a great stat to tell us why.

[Blake]

Yeah, I may misquote it, but it was. There's like, now 20 million podcasts since COVID and 60% of the advertising revenue goes to only, like, 20 or 30% of the podcasts. Like, it's just disproportionate. Like, the top 2% of podcasts take almost 80% of all of the revenue. So everybody is running a podcast to run a living. Although there may be $10 billion going into podcast advertising, it's a very difficult road to make money from a podcast. But there are other uses of a podcast that people aren't considering.

[Alex]

Yeah, this is the actual quote I wrote down that you had said. It's the podcast industry generates 1 billion in ad revenue, with the top 10 podcasts accounting for 35% of the revenue. So the top 10.

[Blake]

Yeah. And like, not 10%, 10.

[Alex]

Like, the top 10 of the 1 billion it generates makes 35%. The remaining 80 million podcasts sharing the remaining 65%. The top 10% of podcasts generate 7% of the ad revenue, while the top 8 million podcasts account for 80%. Podcasting is not solely about generating wealth or fame, but rather a platform for engagement with audiences. I wrote this down as you were chatting, and I think that's the important segue is, even for us in podcasting, it's not to make money. And the reason being is the way that the companies that want to spend on the platform, they use a model called cpm and it's basically designed that you only really make money if you have a bunch of listeners. The problem is there's a significantly less amount of people that are going to tune in for a long form piece of content. So what you're working up against is consistency. You have to get over. Like, most podcasts don't even do 100 episodes. Wasn't that the next thing they said?

[Blake]

Yeah, you can be in the top 5% of podcasters just by doing 20 episodes.

[Alex]

Yeah, like, it's just like most people don't even do, don't even finish.

[Blake]

Made me think when podcasts started. So first mover advantage really mattered in podcasts in terms of getting an audience. Because if you were good and you got loyalty, it's just hard to do it. Because originally there was a few podcasts and less distractions for people, but in Today's world, there's 80 million podcasts and tons of distractions. Like, how do you win somebody? The odds of winning somebody to become a loyal follower to your podcast, it.

[Alex]

Just doesn't make sense. Like if you launch 10 podcasts or 80 podcasts and someone like the Skinny Confidentials on 724, you need that tale of momentum for people to get to know you, for you to have a, a list to listen to. And also like Spotify and Apple podcasts, their searchability and their findability isn't great. Like, they're not pushing podcasts that you should listen to like in the same way they do music. Because podcasts are inherently different. Right? Like, the whole problem with podcasting is the way we use the word has to change. Podcasts today should represent a long form format that allows you to showcase your thought leadership and expertise in order to get short form content. And people that listen to the long form are loyalists, but it takes time to grow those to a rate in which you can make money off of advertising spend. But here's the other rub. You can make money off of podcasting indirectly, right? So by, by showcasing your expertise, your thought leadership, by providing an outlet for people to get to know you in whatever, whatever your sell or whatever you offer allows you to have a higher likelihood of conversion from online sales. And that's worth your time. Especially when you're like a top lawyer and a top doctor, it's harder to squeeze in what you do in a minute or less. It's easier to have a framework of 20 minutes, 40 minutes where you can actually teach or provide value and then from there extract the best a minute, a minute and a half, to hook People that if they want to listen to it longer, they can. But it's naturally going to be more niche down because someone that's going to want to listen to more 45 or an hour, it has to be really interesting to them for the whole hour.

[Blake]

No. Podcasts, I think are one of the most useful things products, companies and people can do. But it has to be done well and you have to understand the why behind it.

[Alex]

Totally agree.

[Blake]

The why is not to make money. The why is to create a platform and vehicle to capture amazing content that connects with your customer.

[Alex]

The why is also understanding what a brand represents. And when you're developing a brand, whether it be personal or for your business or for your service, the way that you create a brand is by building a relationship over time. And a great way to build a relationship over time is to really show your expertise and your passion and that comes through longer form content. And it's. You also are putting in more hours on perfecting how you communicate because oftentimes, especially when you're like really good at what you do, you can speak the high level, complicated vernacular and jargon, but you need to go through the motions of breaking it down so that whoever you're actually trying to sell to is, is able to understand where your genius is and how you can communicate it. So it's investing in the brand and it's also investing in your ability to become a better content creator.

[Blake]

I just think the name podcast carries baggage, whereas what doing weekly or bi weekly long form content is, it should be part of your marketing budget in terms of capturing. It takes your time and the editing, but it can, it can be way more effective in the long run. But you have to see it as part of your marketing budget and efforts, not as, you know, a distraction.

[Alex]

No, it's. It's just cut the word ROI from podcasts, that is the baggage. Because it's branding and ROI to me are things like, I'm just done having the conversation on. Like ROI is an intangible benefit of branding that you cannot measure and you don't know when it's going to come. But you need to change your mindset to be like, I'm going to be a thought leader, I'm going to be an expert in what I do and that takes the time in creating content. It's not one video, it's accumulation of 300 videos where someone can say she knows her shit because I've put in the work of creating the content.

[Blake]

It's the path to greatness. And you have to invest in it. And it's. But sometimes I think it's just too easy for companies to say, I'll just throw money at Google Ad spend.

[Alex]

No. And that's not a brand. That's. That's marketing. And there's a space for marketing. But when you're only doing bottom of the funnel and you're not realizing and understanding how to invest in branding and what branding represents for your future, it's when you're on a slow path to death. But quickly, before you go, I also wanted to touch on qualifiers. And in doing the media coaching and podcasting coaching for a lot of women, I notice that there's these two qualifier points that really hold women back from making an impactful point. And one is saying I think before a statement, because by saying I think and then saying the statement, it's a qualifier and it weakens the point that you're about to say. And the second is the fear of potentially insulting someone with no grasp or understanding of if it could even potentially be insulting. So I find when clients are trying to say something powerful and impactful and they've got a really great thing to say, they start it by already qualifying and giving justification for other people's opinions or different approaches or directions. And it completely weakens the argument because right when they're about to start, they're cutting themselves off at the knees and like allowing all these potential fake people that maybe may or may not be insulting, insulted. And then you completely lose your point. Because by the time that you've gotten to it, I'm like, okay, we just did a 30 second segue. And I'm like trying to think, am I insulted? Am I? Is it wrong that I agree with this? Is it wrong that I align with this? And it's controversy is what you need. Like, you have to be controversial. And if you have this opinion and you're trying to create content that's going to work and it's going to do well. You have to just say it to.

[Blake]

Me like, business is war in that you're fighting for market share and to capture territory and all that. But what's happened with people is they're hampered from actually achieving their objectives because of this social conditioning that governs their behavior. And it happens at the individual level. And I think you're talking about in females. It happens, but it's also in men where they're like, the fear of offending somebody, potentially, potentially offending somebody governs how you share important information.

[Alex]

Exactly.

[Blake]

As opposed to just being direct. So I Was thinking, understanding that there are these social conditioning things that hamper real dialogue and actually create fake outrage, which is designed, usually comes from somebody who doesn't have anything to contribute but wants to raise their level of importance in the meeting. Right. Go ahead.

[Alex]

I've never had a client who has done the qualifying statement and then what they've said, I've been like, shit, you shouldn't have said that. Like, it's never been the case. Like it's always been what majority of people that are listening to agree with. There may be space for someone somewhere to disagree, but it's so far past needing to overly qualify it that you completely waste your point. And I think that's another interesting element to this is to give you an example, one of the clients that we do podcast, coaching foreign strategy, their audience is a very clear segmented category, and the opinions that they're coming in with are very much aligned with the people that are tuning in every week. So when they go into qualify, let's say, for example, they're into ranching and they're going in to qualify, that someone that might be vegan or PETA focused may be insulted by this. The reality is like, they're not listening. And it's so funny when I, when I go in and I give this feedback, they always agree in my brain is like, how are you missing this?

[Blake]

Because it's social conditioning.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Blake]

Like you're just getting it in subtle messages from every area of the, of the media. These people are upset. This person was canceled. You can't say this like it's everywhere. And so then that leaks into how we conduct ourselves individually and then as a business, because we have to get people, we have to encourage them to lean into what they really think, because that's what's interesting.

[Alex]

And that's why I stopped saying think or I like or.

[Blake]

Yeah. And people want to hear. If you assert, people give you more credibility. Right.

[Alex]

And so that's why people are really tuning in. Right. Is they want your opinion, clearly. And then they want to decide if they agree, if they disagree, or if they want to take a version of it. And that's. It's interesting. It's. If on one hand you want to grow, the only way that you can grow is you can't grow with every audience in every segment. If you're trying to keep everybody happy, you keep nobody happy. You're not saying anything interesting. So you need to understand who is your segment? Who are you trying to speak to? And there's a very high likelihood that they're going to agree with you. And if they have that those shared, shared values and agreement, they want your opinion full force. Now, you can still. I'm not saying go in and be extreme or hateful or racist. And I think that's the level that people think right away when I say be controversial is the word. Controversy is so laden with these taboo topics that may or may not work for your brand. But just saying your opinion can be controversial in essence because you're saying something.

[Blake]

No, it's because people take, take things personally too. So you could be telling somebody else they're wrong, whether it's a competitor or a customer or. That's the other controversy they want to avoid is we don't want to be saying anything that makes somebody else wrong. It's not just racist or feel bad.

[Alex]

That's my point though, is because I see this a lot. This is my job. The points of where I'm asking for them to be controversial or to lean into is not where your brain goes right away. It's actually just saying something that is. Asserts you as an expert that has an opinion on something. And to have an opinion is to actually say something of weight. And that's you're right. Like the, the issue is like, you can't tear down a business that's doing something bad. You can't identify where they're doing something wrong because you don't want to be mean and you don't want to. You don't attack them. You don't want to be seen like that. But then you're not saying anything and that's why you're not growing. What makes personal branding so cool and people so cool is your expertise is shaped by your own personal experiences and stories. So whatever you've gone through in life makes you a different surgery than the other guy or the other gal that's down the road. But you need to provide your opinion that's based on how it's changed and how it's shaped by what you've been exposed to. But many people don't want to say that because there's this body of thought and this person says this and this is common in the industry. And then you're not adding to the discourse and dialogue and people are staying misinformed.