← The Astrology Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Chris.
- [00:00]
B
Hey, my name is Chris Brennan, and you're listening to the Astrology podcast. Joining me today is astrologer Ileana Reyes, and we're gonna be talking about early childhood astrology. So, hey, thanks for joining me today.
- [00:11]
A
Thank you so much for having me on, Chris.
- [00:14]
B
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you about this because this is an area that I haven't explored very much, but I just did my whole episode on the fifth house in astrology, which is primarily about children, and. And we got traces of this. But one of the things that came up that we didn't dive into as much as we could have is just how the houses show up from a perspective of a child, especially the first time you experience either a placement or a transit through one of the 12 houses. So that's what I wanted to talk to you about today, because you specialize in this, and your YouTube channel is called Matriarch Astrology, and this is part of your core focus as an astrologer, right?
- [00:54]
A
Yes. I mainly am trying to help parents understand the early childhood and how we can help support. I feel like as we grew up, we could have used probably some support, and it could have been beneficial for us, at least for me. For sure, it would have been beneficial having that knowledge, especially for, like, creativity and things like that. And that's where it comes in with the houses.
- [01:20]
B
Brilliant. Okay, nice. We'll get into that today. I've done maybe one or two other episodes on childhood astrology or how that shows up, especially from the perspective of parents. But today I wanted to approach it partially from the perspective of. I'm in my 40s now. I don't have children, and I'm okay with that because I decided to focus on my career. But I. A lot of my friends, you know, friends like Austin, for example, are having children recently, and it's interesting seeing them. And sometimes I do think about. I've always thought about as an astrologer. That's one part I'm definitely missing out on, which is seeing somebody who's born and then grows into their chart from square one. And what an amazing experience that would be to see that happening, to watch that happening, and to understand astrology from a completely different perspective than we're often used to as astrologers, where we're dealing with our charts as adults or teenagers or something like that, pretty far into our life, relatively speaking. But to have that experience as an astrologer that each parent has of seeing a person grow into their chart gives you a really unique perspective. On astrology, I think. Right.
- [02:38]
A
It does. And I think as an adult, obviously, we're able to make a lot more choices, so. So when it comes to career, second house, money, there's a lot more autonomy that we have. But then when we're looking at a child's chart, it's more of what their environment is versus what they are choosing. So they do grow into that, and you kind of see it blossom as they get older.
- [03:03]
B
Nice. Okay, well, then today you're going to be my guide to help me look at this from a perspective that I haven't looked at it from before or haven't been able to access it from as, like, in much of a detailed fashion before. Like, you asked me yesterday when we were doing a planning meeting, why this hadn't been a subject of focus for me. And I guess it's just because I try to speak on things that I have some background on and some real knowledge, and I try not to too much in my life, as a general philosophy, to speak on things that I don't have much background on. So this is an area where I could really use an expert to go through and understand things. Things better.
- [03:43]
A
Yes, definitely. And I think we look at. Back at our charts, too, in childhood, to certain things. But we're looking at it, you know, as a retrospective, like what happened then and just remembering. But when you have a child, you can see it actually show up as the child is in front of you, and it's a little bit more like you're observing. It's a lot more observing than reflecting back.
- [04:06]
B
Got it. Okay. So. And you not only work with children, but you also have children yourself.
- [04:12]
A
Yes, I do.
- [04:13]
B
Okay. Awesome. All right, so before we get into the houses, which is maybe gonna be the crux of this episode, let's get some groundwork stuff out of the way first. One of the things is sometimes there's an issue about thinking of this theoretically or hypothetically or in terms of things we've observed versus a consulting setting. And there are sometimes debates in the community about whether to read the charts, children or not, and the pros and cons of that. So help me think through some of the different things that come up in terms of that. And what the different arguments or different pros and cons are, some of them
- [04:58]
A
that people are hung up on, is when you get an astrologer, let's say, just for example, that if an astrologer says or sees something that's a little bit more difficult, like Mercury with Neptune, they may say things that the parent takes and runs with it. So then it becomes like this big. Either they're worried about it or they just take it out of context and then use it. So that's, I think what I've seen the most when it comes to ethics about it is what you're saying and how you're saying it. So as an astrologer, it's so important. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Especially with children's charts, we are observing and we can give our insights, but we also have to let them know that the chart is still unfolding. There's so much that's happening between 0 to 7 and then past 7 to 14. Everything is developing, so nothing is set in stone, especially with everything else like transits. So as an astrologer, it's always important to make sure that you're not predicting anything and you're always bringing encouragement and looking at where you can see strengths. And then also if you do see some type of struggle, just make sure that you're wording in a way that you're offering, I would say like insights, offering your perspective and at least letting them know, hey, this is just my astrological take. If you see necessary, you can go on ahead and do other things like therapy services and stuff like that outside of any type of consultation. That way it's not just this is the only thing and that's it, you have to give them other outlets as well.
- [06:41]
B
Got it. That makes sense. Yeah. So one of the tricky things is that parents, in terms of their interpretation of things or how it may hit them if they either see something in a child's chart or are told something, may take it in an overly negative way or you never want to be in a situation where it's a self fulfilling prophecy or something like that.
- [07:06]
A
Yeah, like if somebody, I think I saw an example of somebody saying, well, Mercury, Neptune could say that the child is deceitful and then that could make the parent always feel like the child is lying and we don't want anything to become weaponized. It's always important to look at also synastry, I believe, because you want to see first the parent, their overall energy and then the child and putting them both into perspective. So, so with that, I think that's part of the ethics part, is looking at both as opposed to just one. You might not be able to do that with every single parent, but I think that trying to push for that first would be better because that way you can get a little bit more insight on the parent by looking at the chart, speaking to them, and then comparing it together with the child.
- [07:53]
B
Got it. Okay. So, yeah. So there's all sorts of different nuances and stuff about ethics and applying things in practice and things to be careful of and other things like that. And one of the questions I have about this that I always thought was interesting is that question of the tabula rasa. How much do we come in as a blank slate? And then our personalities developed through childhood conditioning and circumstances and things like that, versus how much of it it was already there from the start. And as astrologers, obviously, we, I would think, have an idea that things are not a completely blank slate from the start. But that is an interesting question. In terms of the balance, in terms of the birth chart and how people grow into it early on, of how they have certain starting points and certain predispositions based on different placements, versus there are actually early experiences that people have that form and shape their personality in really significant ways.
- [09:02]
A
Yeah, I would see it as a landscape, kind of like a blank landscape. The chart is like a blank landscape that they have in the beginning. There might be a little bit of weather going on there. You have a tree and a mountain, and everybody has a different landscape. But what the child does with that, how they evolve with it, is what you see over time. You know, they explore it on their own as they grow. And that's kind of like the houses. They explore each different part of the landscape. They may decide to build there or not, or explore this area or not, or these things happen in this area versus another. So I see it kind of like that. Like just a landscape that is already there, set for them because of the chart. But how that turns out is based on their decisions and what happens as they grow.
- [09:49]
B
Got it. Okay. That makes sense. And that kind of takes it back to your example, though, with the Mercury, Neptune of that, it could just indicate somebody that's highly creative and has a highly creative imagination, and if brought up and trained and guided in a good way, in an ethical way in order to channel that energy, could channel it into creativity or creative writing or art or other things like that. That could be really constructive. So that it. That becomes a great example, then, of the importance of not instilling in people, of not giving into some sort of fatalism or something, that something inevitably has to be a certain way and therefore almost creating that as a side effect.
- [10:36]
A
Yes. And definitely, I think, too, it's about planting seeds. So you can have two children that have the same Mercury, Neptune, and in the same sign. But one can do something one way, one can do something the other. And that's mainly the environment. What were they taught? What did they see? What choices did they make? And I think that what we want to do is give those little seeds offer, you know, with Neptune, let's say just keep that example. Offer. Hey, creativity might be something that you want to offer. If they reject it, that's fine, because we don't want to enforce it. And say, because you have this, that means you have to be creative. But I think that it's kind of like offering a plate of possibilities for them to choose from and say, hey, you can try either or and see what they like, see what they gravitate towards. But offering it in the first place and setting those seeds can help, I guess, if they choose one, then that way it naturally grows.
- [11:33]
B
Right. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, are there any other things like that or basic things that we should touch base on in terms of the philosophy or the ethics? I mean, actually, you just mentioned something, I think that's so important. Two people. Because that's been my answer that I've been formulating over the past several years that I think is important, which is you have the time twins scenario of, let's say you have two people that are born in the same hospital on the same day at the same time in the same location, and functionally have the same chart or close to it. But then each of those people goes home to different families. And within each of those families, they have a web of different synastry relationships with each parent or with siblings or grandparents or different things like that that are gonna activate and accentuate the chart in different ways. And I think this is something that hasn't been explored enough. I did a little video on this, I think, last year. But I think that's a really crucial piece in terms of understanding how, with the time twins issue, how two different charts can branch off in different ways. And some of those synastry relationships can positively accentuate and bring out certain positive qualities, whereas other ones, there might be more challenging things that might arise.
- [12:56]
A
Right. Because that is basically, if you think about it, it's basically the transits that were going on at the time for your parents, either the mother or the father. And it's like a snapshot of that transit during your birth. So then that energy is continued. That's the synastry. And you could have great synastry. And there is circumstances where you see that they don't have the Best of synastry. And then you see friction arise. And as they grow or become more autonomous, you might see even more. Especially like the teenage years is where you'll see probably more of a pushback and then there's more of a opposition there. So it. The synastry, I think, is what you see there. And why with the twins, one is this way. They could be born in the same place and time, but you have different parents and those synastries are much different. So that does play a major role in the child's chart. That's why I said it's important to look at that too.
- [13:53]
B
That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so, yeah, so it's like some children are like their parents. Permanent Saturn return or Jupiter return or Venus return or whatever that was that was activating for the parent as a transit. Just kind of becomes a permanent, evolving, walking, talking transit for you.
- [14:13]
A
Yeah, like a theme that's continuous or a Plutonian theme that kind of goes on in the relationship between the child and the mother. And that's why when you have many children and there's more than one, you see that they might have a relationship with one and then with the other. It's completely different. But they're in the same household. Yes, the charts are different, but you do see different relationships with different childs. And they experience the parents different even though it's the same parent.
- [14:40]
B
Right. That's always super fascinating. The different fourth house compositions of different siblings and the one, let's say at more positive placements and one of the siblings experiencing the parents in a more positive way for whatever reason versus somebody, let's say, that doesn't for fourth house or synastry or other reasons, and has a completely different experience of the parents even though they were in the same household.
- [15:06]
A
Right. Yeah. And when you see repeating themes as well. So for example, my mother also has an Aries moon and I have an Aries moon. And sometimes you see that where there's a repeating theme and then that ends up playing out. That's getting very deep there. But I mean, for me, I did. We did experience that in my home where my relationship with my mother was not the same as my sister. It was like day and night. So I. I would attest to it with the moon in Aries. And that playing out with me personally versus their synastry, which is a lot more harmonious versus mine.
- [15:42]
B
Yeah, that's a whole fascinating area in and of itself is like intergenerational astrology and certain placements and certain signatures being Handed over across generations, which is something astrologers see, which you pick up on pretty quickly when you. Because often astrologers will cast the charts for their family members is one of the early things we do when we get into astrology. And then you just start noticing these patterns repeating across generations. Mine is especially like a Scorpio sun pattern where it's like my mom's birthday is two days after mine and my father's birthday is a week later, and my grandfather's birthday is a few days after that. And it's just handing down certain placements across generations. And that can be really fascinating to track as part of whatever the generational story is.
- [16:34]
A
Yeah. And some are here also to kind of change it too. I think that, at least for me, what I've experienced personally is that is the case. Even though it's the same. There's a lot that I'm choosing to do very vastly differently. So that. That comes into play too. I guess I'm changing things up.
- [16:53]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Totally. Okay. So that's cool. That's all good ground stuff. And then one of the things you talked about is thinking developmentally rather than predictively. And I guess you already mentioned that. But that's one of the things that's the most fascinating to me is that I've seen when I study celebrity biographies or my own chart or other people I know is just like sometimes we have our first experience of a certain placement, and sometimes there's an echo of that that will resonate and reverberate or come back later in a person's life as an adult, Especially during really important life defining or career defining moments. But sometimes very earlier in life, the placement that indicated that in the birth chart will be activated for one of the first times. And you'll have the first experience of whatever that placement is. And that's something I'd like to focus on today because that's a really fascinating idea to me. The first time you ever experienced a transit or an activation of a certain house that coincided with what was a significant event at the time, but that maybeastrologers aren't always used to thinking about in that context of what does the earliest experience of that house actually look like?
- [18:20]
A
It would depend too. I think that would play into, at least the way I see it, planets and their degrees. I have seen the theme of things happening during those degrees, like moon at three degrees. I don't remember. But I do know it's pretty tumultuous. But I do see that transits, especially in Childhood did show up developmentally where it did affect me at the age around like nine, which is coinciding around now with the Saturn in Aries activate current transit. So that was also there occurring around that time as well. So that was a major theme that occurred there with the father. And that aspect making a square there back to the 10th house, that did manifest itself. I wouldn't say that I would have predicted it if I was looking at a child's chart. But when I do look back, I do see that correlation there between the Neptune and Saturn and the father.
- [19:23]
B
Okay, yeah. And you'd mentioned you have actually for consultations, a cutoff in terms of the clients that you will do charts for, right?
- [19:35]
A
Yes. So from zero to seven, I wouldn't really look at their chart because there's so much developmentally going on there. And it's not really a lot. It's just more of a development like stuff, speech, motor movement, things like that. And then after the age of seven is where you see more of like the outside development of things. So correlation with children and more autonomy there on their choices and what they decide. The only way reason I would look at underneath seven would be for specific reasons, like if there's a, a speech delay or just questions about communication and things like that, which do pop up before the age of seven. That's where you see parents noticing that their child is not speaking as quickly as the other children and they come in to see if this is going to be alleviated, is it going to be an ongoing thing and things like that.
- [20:31]
B
Got it. Right. Because when speech develops after what, like a year, year and a half, what are the ranges?
- [20:36]
A
Yeah. So speech, you'll usually see it around the age like one and a half, two. You should definitely be seeing it by two. So that's where parents start to notice and, and you go and you get doctor visits and they will let you know and they'll ask you, is this going on? Do you see this? Do you see that? And then you look at it and you're like, no, I don't see that. And then that's where usually people get concerned that their child isn't speaking either at all, or they're just babbling still. So those things become prominent around that age. So I'd say anywhere from one and a half, two to like three, four. That's where you'll see a big implosion of communication that should be occurring normally.
- [21:20]
B
Got it. Okay. And then in some instances, I'm sure mercury might be tied into that or Might be relevant in terms of things if there was a delay in developing that.
- [21:34]
A
Yes. So for instance, my son has Mercury right next to Saturn and he did have a speech delay. And when I went to the doctor, I had just explained he's not speaking at all. And I was quite concerned. But he did begin speaking. It was just much later than what you would be seeing. So instead of it being 2 to 3, it was more 4 to 5. And around 6 is where I started getting speech. So I can see there where parents start to get worried because you assume the worst, is this going to be this way forever? And you start to panic. So I think it's just being very careful around what you're wording about what's going on there and always looking at how can we bring encouragement and offering obviously the services that are needed at that time, which is usually speech therapy.
- [22:24]
B
Nice. I love that because I have a Mercury Saturn conjunction and just grew up with a lot of reticence surrounding speech and speaking in public and things like that, or self consciousness and things like that. And I think you said you have a Mercury Saturn as well. And so it's interesting how Mercury Saturn combinations can sometimes just indicate delays or sometimes challenges in speech and how that could just manifest in literally like a delay in not doing it as soon as other people.
- [22:53]
A
Right, yeah. And so instead of saying for sure that this child's gonna have a speech delay, you need to wait to see that, honestly. And if it is showing up so early, then yeah, you're seeing it early. But if not, it could just be that there wasn't a speech delay at all, but that they're more reserved back on what they say, maybe not saying a lot or feeling insecure about speaking up, especially as they get older when it comes to friend groups or in school.
- [23:18]
B
Got it. Okay. I can see then why in many instances it's gonna be tricky but important for a parent, if they were an astrologer, if they were looking at their child's chart to not jump to conclusions or worst case scenarios, even if they do see a placement that might mean a certain thing and even if it starts to manifest in a certain way that implies that because you really do have to just wait and see in many instances how it turns out and if things don't still grow and develop in different ways.
- [23:51]
A
Right. Yeah. And it just depends on how you study astrology. There's some things that you can keep to yourself and some things that you can say to me. I would look to see if it's applying versus separating. That way you can see is, again, to alleviate. At least for me, it was separating. So I knew once I started learning that, that it did. And it did end up separating. And he began speaking, fine, but there's still assistance that's needed. And I can still tell that there's. The communication is still could use some. Some reinforcement and some help. And that's usually where I come in and provide those services.
- [24:29]
B
Got it. Nice.
- [24:30]
A
As in therapy.
- [24:32]
B
Right. Okay, that makes sense. Well, why don't we start talking about maybe some of the houses? Unless there's any other preliminary stuff that we meant to mention, I'm not sure that there is. Right.
- [24:44]
A
I don't think so.
- [24:45]
B
Okay, cool. Well, let's start with the first house. And I did a whole big episode on the first house, part of my series, and talking about it connecting with both the mind and the body and the physical appearance and the character as the meeting point between the sky and the Earth, and in ancient astrology, the meeting point between the realm of the soul and the realm of the physical incarnation. So it's a really important house, the first house and the ascendant. In terms of that, how does that show up from your perspective when it comes to the charts of children?
- [25:25]
A
To me, it's more about, like, temperament and how the child is perceived. So you. You go out, people can see your child, and it's more about how they're just observing them. There's not especially zero to seven. There may not even be a lot that they're talking to to, like, the outside people. But it's more about their temperament, their body, especially if you have, like, let's say the moon there in the first, where you can see a lot of the emotions come out. And if it's a moon in Aries, then you're going to see those emotions come out almost like tantrums sometime, just more assertiveness. And those emotions are definitely more prominent in the child as you perceive them. So it's more about their energy level and things like that, based also on the sign that's there in the first house.
- [26:10]
B
Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And just their temperament. So there might be different ways in which especially planets in the first house are going to manifest in different temperament qualities. Like Mars in the first house, for example, and some of the energy of that, as opposed to Saturn or Jupiter in the first house. And just the immediate manifestation of some of those planetary traits as character qualities and impulses.
- [26:42]
A
Yeah, you'll see it in them. They can be a little bit More energetic, especially if Mars there. So it's more like a toddler that you might see running around a lot or after the age of seven that they just have more bursts of energy, especially if it's in a fire. Or you can have a child that's more reserved that people are just like, she's so quiet and she doesn't really say anything and hides away from grown ups. More shy and reserved, like Virgo or Pisces. I've seen that. So it's more about how they're being perceived because they're still not outwardly going out and talking to friends and being out in the world. It's more about where their parents are taking them and family members and things like that. So it's more personal, at least those experiences. Yeah. At that age.
- [27:27]
B
Right. Okay. And the first house is the character and the mind, but can also be like the body. And sometimes I know when people grow up, like first house stuff can be very literal things related to the body and the physical constitution and the health. And some of that can have origins and early things from the beginning of the life as well.
- [27:54]
A
Yes. So if you have again with Mars there and you have a toddler, then you'll see sometimes, at least what I saw personally is just when they get upset, it's almost like they get physically hot. So they start sweating and you're kind of worried, my child's getting red, he's sweating everywhere. It's just that fire energy in a fire sign. It's Mars. It's in the first house. The tantrums could be physically coming out and showing off in the body and expressing itself in such a literal way like that. So since they're so young, it's more just about they can't speak. So you're just only gonna have to observe of what's going on within the body or any rashes and things like that.
- [28:37]
B
Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm sure. You know, and sometimes the character traits then can lead to outcomes. For example, if it was Mars, maybe an impulsiveness or recklessness and then sometimes getting a bump or something or falling down just as a result of greater tendency towards, I don't know, doing things recklessly as opposed to somebody that's on the opposite end of the spectrum who's more extremely reticent and therefore maybe doesn't come out of their shell as much or maybe. Yeah, that's when, as you were saying earlier, parents could worry about developmental delays or something like that, but instead it could just be coming from A character standpoint of being more reticent or pulled back than other people.
- [29:31]
A
Right. Yeah. Like if you had Saturn or something, or more Taurus energy or Piscean energy, where it's not so out there again, remember that. Any planets there. I'm just saying in general, on the cusp. So those things is always important to pay attention to on how they're expressing their body. And then after the age of seven is where you'll see. Yeah. If they have Mars there, then they're more willing to go out and speak to kids at the playground and have those communicative thoughts and play. There's not much need to push them out to go do it. They're, like, ready to go. As opposed to a Pisces where you have to kind of gently nudge them to try to go play and socialize with other children.
- [30:14]
B
Got it. Okay. So you said that Saturn can be more serious or cautious body language. Whereas Venus, for example, in the first house could be more relationally attuned.
- [30:26]
A
Yeah. To wanting to make those friendships with others. Because especially when you're in early childhood, the majority of what we do is we take our children to the park and we are hoping that what they're going to do is play with each other. So when you see that, there's more a willingness to go out to talk to the other kids. And then sometimes you see them come back and they don't want to, and they just sit next to you the entire time. And it just kind of becomes like, well, we're just gonna sit here at the park and you're just gonna be next to me. And they don't really want to go out and try to talk to other kids.
- [31:01]
B
Got it. Right. And then the first house is also the concept of the self. And so one of the things you said emerges in this house is the idea of the concept of the self or behavior in terms of reflections on that.
- [31:19]
A
Yes. And I think that usually starts to develop after the age of seven. So that's not really anything that's going on early childhood. But I think that more correlates with. Since it's naturally opposing the seventh. Once we get those experiences with the other and the children, whether they're starting school or preschool, that's where you get more of the development of me versus the other.
- [31:45]
B
Got it. Okay. And then the final thing with the first house that I would think might be relevant, although not as much, is just where is the ruler of the ascendant. That's such an important placement, especially based on its Sign and picking up some of the qualities of that sign, but also the house placement, and especially later in life, the house placement of the ruler of the Ascendant can gravitate a person's life towards focusing on a specific area of life or specific topics. And I'm sure early on that there's sometimes early previews of that sometime relatively early in the life when that placement might get activated and sort of give intimations about an area of the life that the person might be more focused on at some point in the future.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah, I definitely think that would be with transits, especially like your conjunction transits that activate it, I would say for sure after seven. And then if you get a transit to that house and it hits that planet or, you know, other houses that activate it, then you see those themes pop up. So it just really just depends on, I would say, transits or perfections to that house where the ruler is placed, where you may or may not see anything activate there.
- [33:07]
B
Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. I had an early one. We're gonna talk about this in the 10th house, but it's a good point to mention it. But early on, it's a very reticent person, communication wise, due to my Mercury Saturn conjunction. But I, when I was in 5th grade or so, I was in my first 10th house profection year, activating my 10th house with the ruler of the Ascendant there. I ended up running for student council president in fifth grade or something like that. And so that was an early activation of my 10th house stellium and some of those 10th house placements. That was an interesting preview of some of the stuff that I would do later and almost seemed out of character where I would become a public speaker later. But like an early preview of it the first time some of that stuff was activated.
- [34:00]
A
Right. And did you have a stellium also there?
- [34:04]
B
Yeah, I've got a big stellium in Scorpio in the 10th House of the Sun, Saturn, Mercury, Pluto, South Node, and a couple other things. So it's like a packed part of my chart. So it made sense when I first started learning about profections, seeing that show up as my first 10th house profection year when I'm only 9 years old or something like that. But nonetheless, it shows up as an early attempt to be involved in leadership or being very public, trying to be involved in student government and doing public speaking and other things like that.
- [34:42]
A
Right. And I think too, when you first experience it, I guess was it successful the first time around versus when you had the transit again, where you can kind of notice, how does each one go, In a sense, it's not that a child is unsuccessful at what they were trying to attempt, but the way you experienced it, was it more of a positive thing or more of a scary thing? And the second time around, was it any different, or did you not see anything at all?
- [35:10]
B
Right, yeah. I mean, I didn't win, but I think I became vice president or ended up getting on the Council or something like that. So it was like a setback, but still, you know, semi successful, which is like a good sort of day chart. Saturn, 10th House Type Experience. And sort of set things up in a positive way, I think, for the future.
- [35:32]
A
Right. I love that. And you probably developed onto that. So that could have been a part of your development and there as a child and where you began to build on that.
- [35:42]
B
Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Ruler of the Ascendant. And then, of course, the planet that rules the Ascendant is very important for character in addition to planets in the first house. Because many people don't have planets in the first house. And even though if you do, those planets show up very visibly. But the planet that definitely shows up in terms of your character is like the ruler of the Ascendant and what sign and house placement it's in and everything else like that.
- [36:12]
A
Yes, definitely. Especially what planet that is. If it's Mars versus Venus, you could say the House. But usually you would want to just look at it, especially if there's any activations to it, because that's when you might see some of those themes pop up.
- [36:31]
B
Yeah. And oftentimes the ruler of the Ascendant, I see it as, it's the planet where, more than any other planet, is that which you bring about in your own life or that which arises from within you in some way. And that can be really important in different ways. Where sometimes, if it's like a positive planet, it's positive things that the person brings about as a result of their own choices or volition. Whereas sometimes, if it's a challenging planet, it can be challenging things that arise from within the person that they bring about through actions or choices. And sometimes layering that on top of things can be really important and I think would be relevant here in terms of helping to guide a child in a positive way, in terms of how they take actions that bring about certain things in their life in a constructive fashion.
- [37:25]
A
Right. Because as a child, they don't have much options. It's only based on what's available. For example, I have my ruler of the ascendant in the 9th and Sagittarius. And to me it was. I had to grow up in this religious home, and that was not my choice. But as I began to have my own autonomy, grew up, I can start questioning things on my own and make a decision to flip it over and change it entirely and choose something completely different. So since they're so young, it's more about circumstances. They can't really change, but as you see them gain more autonomy, then they decide to make different choices and may decide to branch out and use that energy in the way that they want to use it.
- [38:08]
B
Got it. I love that. Yeah. Like, for example, becoming an astrologer in your case.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah, becoming an astrologer, being more spiritual and just not completely just letting it go and not wanting to continue that type of religion or continue that area of life and having. Growing up with it and then making different choices. I think even though it makes other people uncomfortable, it's still something that I choose on my own.
- [38:36]
B
Got it. Okay, that makes sense.
- [38:38]
A
Very empowering.
- [38:39]
B
Yeah, I love that. So is there anything else about the first house before we move on?
- [38:44]
A
No, I don't think so.
- [38:46]
B
Okay, cool. So let's go to the second house. Just briefly, where the second house as an adult is money and resources and possessions. And it's interesting to me thinking about the first experience of possessions and things you have and things you like or things you own and what that experience is like early on and how that could be formulative for some people.
- [39:13]
A
Yes, definitely. With the second, you see more, especially between 0 to 7. What you'll see mostly with this house is those possessions do come into place, but they're more about the things that they like. So food, comfort foods that they like, or some children tend to have like a certain object that they like, whether it's a blanket or some type of plushie that they refuse to let go of. It has to go everywhere. If you lose it, hopefully you can find something identical and that they don't notice. Or it could also be just the circumstances. At least after the age of seven, the parents, financial circumstances, because again, a child's not really making any money. So it could just be the financial situation of the child and what they grew up experiencing. Because I've had people come to me, not a child's chart, but an adult, that that was a major theme for them, especially with planets there where they grew up seeing issues around money and worries about money and everything was surrounded around money from Very early on, and that imprinted on them. So now as adults, they put a big focus on being financially secure.
- [40:23]
B
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I had a client once, it was a couple, and they were in their 80s, but he had Saturn ruling the ascendant. And it was in the second house, in a night chart with the second house stellium. And he grew up during the Great Depression and his family was really, really poor. And a common phrase was that's all we have. And his wife said that he grew up and became financially successful and everything was okay, but that left a permanent imprint. And his wife said that he always still worried about money or had concerns and reticence surrounding it just because of that early childhood experience. So that makes a lot of sense.
- [41:08]
A
Yeah, definitely. And that's usually what I see most, is this anxiety. I mean, I haven't seen much of happy stories when it comes to money. I mean, you have, but I. I just haven't experienced many. It's mainly usually just stress and anxiety and then that, that ends up becoming something that they deal with. So I think that when you're looking at it and if you see something that looks a little bit rocky, then just wording it in a way that just to make sure that we're not involving the child and as much as we can in that situation, or just giving them some autonomy based on the age, like if they're much older, you can also see a child here that wants to make money. So back in the day they used to do paper routes. Now I'm not really sure of any way of making money that there's no more newspapers. So it's just more about maybe helping them learn how to save money and having a little piggy bank and things like that. Just doing in a way that's healthy and not surrounding it with anxiety or lack.
- [42:10]
B
Right. Like the Fisher Price, like baby's first crypto wallet or something like that. I'm sure we're not far behind that.
- [42:18]
A
Right? Yeah, I mean, they're still piggy banks and maybe even telling them, hey, you could do chores and earn some money that way. Just a safe way to gain money. And you'll see children that even though nothing's going on in the chart that indicates that the parents are struggling, they still want to make money for whatever reason because they like certain objects or certain things that they want to have. So in that case, you do want to give them a little bit of autonomy. But again, you have to really go based on age there, on what you're going to allow them to do in order to make money and have a little piggy bank.
- [42:52]
B
Yeah, for sure. Well, I remember when I was growing up, we did, what was it like an ice cream stand or something like that, or a lemonade stand, for example, super young. And that was how we made some money in order to go to the movies or get candy or something like that. Or like last month I saw, for example, some girls had set up a Girl Scout cookie thing in order to fund their Girl Scout troop, which I'm sure for some people might be an early experience of what it's like to make money and sell things and then have greater self autonomy as a result of financial success or freedom, let's say.
- [43:32]
A
Yeah, definitely. And I think there's many different outlets that you'll see that pop up. Especially again if you have planets there like the moon, where there's this need or you see the emotional need there more with money or with not just money, but also just an object where you'll see like that plushie or things that they don't want to let go of. No matter how much they age, they still like that blanket and it goes on with them as they grow.
- [43:57]
B
That makes sense. I love that. And then also another thing we talked about people being born into extreme circumstances of. Of let's say poverty or hardship in that area through the parents. But then there's sometimes the opposite extreme that I've seen in a lot of the celebrity charts we've been working with of the people that are born into wealth or have families that have generational wealth or have a celebrity parenthe Nepo baby scenario, to use a common phrase that's used a lot these days. Extreme instances of finances being an area where the person is incredibly fortunate, which can then have different, let's say, positive or negative outcomes depending on being raised in that circumstance and how the parents raise them and maybe how the child reacts to money and wealth and takes certain things for granted.
- [44:55]
A
Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think too it's the same thing. You have to be cautious of that as well. And teaching that maybe we do make money a certain way and just being a little bit more cautious. I guess in that instance you would want to teach to say, hey, money doesn't. Not to say money doesn't grow off trees. Like I don't want to instill that in someone. But just showing that we make money and we have to be thankful for the things that we have. It doesn't just because then you don't want them to always just Expect it because they're so used to everything just being given. There is obviously once you're an adult, you'll find out that you have to earn it still in some type of way. So just finding a positive way to, I guess, encourage that from young, if that is the case, that is more fortunate there.
- [45:41]
B
Yeah. It's always interesting to me some of the stories about how sometimes you read headlines about how billionaires or really rich people deal with that in terms of their kids, and sometimes some will go to an extreme of saying their kids will inherit nothing and everything will be given away, and therefore they're trying to counterbalance that by making their child work for their own living or what have you. But yeah, there's lots of different parent dynamics and different ways that that can work out, which I'm sure there's often indications for in the chart. In different ways.
- [46:18]
A
Right? Yeah. And that's why it's important to see the parents too as well, and to see where their standpoint view is because it can be very different from even your own as the astrologer and how you would see things. It's not how every single parent that you give a consultation with is going to see it.
- [46:34]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I think that's good for the second house. Let's move on to the third house, which we covered in a very long podcast episode a couple years ago about being the house of communication, siblings, extended relatives, short distance travel around your neighborhood, and also neighbors and your neighborhood and the place in your immediate vicinity outside of your house, like your city in general, as being some of the core significations of the third house.
- [47:10]
A
Right. And in early childhood, that's where you see a lot of the mental development, as we mentioned earlier. So you see the communication pop up. You do see siblings, especially if there's more than one in the house, and there's a lot or you have a stellium there, but it's a lot of going on because the child is learning to crawl, to walk, to speak. So it's a big impact, especially from zero to seven, where I feel like that house and the ruler is so important to look at and, and the aspects there because so much is developing so quickly. It's a very short time frame. And when you have a child, they so much happens in one year and then the next year. So it's a lot cramped in. In one house. I mean, obviously it's not the only house, but I feel like it's one of the very important ones for 0 to 7.
- [47:59]
B
That makes a Lot of sense. Yeah. And how important the communication and the first steps or first walking or first starting to crawl and become mobile and different things related to how quickly that happens or how smoothly that goes or if they run into any problems in terms of that. And other things like that.
- [48:20]
A
Yeah, like the cognitive development and. And being very cautious on how you talk to them and how you almost. It's like you're teaching them. You're. You're letting them know what's okay, what's not. They're going to test to see what's okay. So you have to be very cautious around this stage because you do want to imprint a lot of positive reinforcement. And it's a lot. They're more on the parent, on the way that they're gonna. There's not a lot that we can do in that instance as astrologers because we're not the parent. I mean, me personally, I can do stuff because I have the control of doing that and what I'm gonna choose to do. But you can give. I guess the only thing you could really do is just give as much positive reinforcement on some good things you can do. But at the end of the day, it's really based on what. What they decide to do within that whole time period. It's pretty big space as well.
- [49:14]
B
Right? That makes sense. Or sometimes the scenario you hear about of a child picking up curse words from a parent, for example, could be, I'm sure, an example of that in terms of placements and how that might work out.
- [49:29]
A
Right? Yeah. And what they're taught, what they see, it's so much that they're taking in. So it's not just what you're teaching. It's also what's going on around what they see in the home. Everything is really building and developing and then imprinting. So it's not something that you can be perfect and say you're going to do a perfect job. And I think that it's very important to tell parents that just try your best, because you're not going to be able to control every single thing that occurs every single day. That's not really realistic.
- [50:00]
B
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's making me remember there was one instance I think we talked about in the Third House episode where a child grew up in a bilingual household, and that ended up being an asset for them later in life. But that at least ability to speak different languages or had two different cultural sides of their family was something that really imprinted them early on or another one. I think it was like Rami Malek had a speech impediment early on, but it was something he worked on and overcome and then became this amazing actor, like an Oscar award winning actor, but that, that tied in with his career later. So there's lots of different threads that sort of come into play here, especially if the third house is emphasized for some reason in a really notable way.
- [50:52]
A
Right? Yeah. And you'll see, I mean, after seven is where you see more of those outward themes of they have a little bit more choice. Not as much, but it's still more than when you get past seven. You're dealing more than with, with school and other, you know, the teacher environment. And that's where we're leaning in more towards the learning and the relationships also with the siblings can impact as well. For example, if you had Mars there and it is in Aries, there might be some arguments or combativeness between siblings there because it's a little bit more amped up. And then you also want to navigate and help because usually what I see is some reassurance or help that's needed in school. So it's usually when people are worried that their child is not able to keep up with the classroom environment, with the teachers and how education is being provided, which unfortunately we don't. We also don't have a lot of say in how the education system is ran. And what you can provide really just depends on finances because private schools and things like that, it's. None of them are really free, unfortunately. So we, we as adults don't even have much say on that either. So we have to help parents find ways on how they can assist if they can financially then offer those type of things like a Waldorf school, Montessori, things like that that might be more beneficial for the child based on third house ruler and things like that.
- [52:28]
B
Right? Yeah. So that's a really crucial piece that was coming up strongly in the third House episode, which is just how much early childhood education really does show up in the third house, especially like kindergarten through 12th grade here in the U.S. which is primary school. And how some of the experiences that people had then can really be foundational and can imprint them in really significant ways, either for better or sometimes for worse. If there was a challenging experience in that early foundational time of life.
- [53:04]
A
Yeah, I mean, for me it was very, very imprinting for me because I began to then believe that I just wasn't smart enough just because of what was imprinted continuously through elementary, middle and high school. I couldn't keep up with the fast paced of if you get it, you got it, and if you don't, we're on to the next. And with my Mercury Saturn, because Mercury rules the third, I needed things to be much slower and I needed it. I needed time to really analyze and, and digest what I'm getting. But in the school system you're not getting that, so you just end up falling behind. And if there's no parents that are supporting that at home or giving you extra support, then you're just kind of left there. And I think that if you see that, at least that's a great thing to see if you're an astrologer and you're doing a consultation because you can say, hey, there might be some support that might, that will be needed and maybe offers offering different schools if that's financially available, if not, then tutoring and things like that. But I think it's important to let them be aware of that possibility because then it's not like they're thinking, oh, something's wrong intellectually with my child, they're just not smart. At least that was the way I was perceived by my parents as not being smart. And there was a lot of expectation and I just couldn't meet that. I couldn't meet the bar.
- [54:29]
B
Sure, yeah. Just that somebody might have more challenges in early schooling for different reasons. And there's a wide variety of different reasons for that as opposed to other people that have great success in primary school. And that's like there's some people. There's a classic case of the people where that's the best part of their life, or let's say the cliche of the person who peaked in high school and then always looks back to that as a great time in their life for some reason, let's say as a cliche.
- [55:07]
A
Yes, definitely. And I've heard of that and that's just mine. Because I don't want to say that if Saturn's there making any type of aspect to the rule of your third, that that's going to be the case for your child. It's more just you have to look at everything. Different planets are going to bring in different flavors and it could have manifested differently if somebody else had Mercury, Saturn there, maybe they did great, but then they might have still felt that pressure. They always had to meet the bar. And although they did meet it, there was kind of this pressure there.
- [55:42]
B
Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. And then let's go back to siblings because that can be really important as well, especially if a person has Siblings. And there's such a wide range of different experiences surrounding that. I mean there's really positive ones. I know, for example, Billie Eilish, for example, who grows up with her brother and then they end up working together. She has the ruler of the third house of siblings in the tenth house of career. And her and her brother ended up writing music together and becoming famous and winning Oscars and stuff like that together versus There can sometimes be really toxic sibling relationships that are more tricky. Like the Menendez brothers, for example. I think one of them has a stellium in the third house. But there's a lot of challenging things to get there in terms of. Yeah, different relationship dynamics, for example.
- [56:43]
A
Yeah, definitely. And you would look to, if you have it, to look at the synastry between the siblings. But even there you can get a lot out of the third house by seeing the ruler and then again planets there. Because if you had the moon there in cancer, they might feel very nurturing towards their sibling or they might feel like they're a second mother to the sibling for whatever reason or just feel a lot of emotions or like they have to nurture and care for. So the sign on there and then any planets there is going to flavor that relationship dynamic. Or where you might see Mars, there might be some combativeness there with siblings that can be only in early childhood or it could still go on to adulthood. Because sibling relationships, you still have them as you grow up. It's almost like it's your best friend that you continue to have, but you can have falling outs. And that does occur in sibling relationships. I have them, so I've experienced that very well.
- [57:43]
B
Yeah, for sure. And that can change at different points over the course of the life, which is one of the interesting things. Or it can stay the same because some things. Yeah, it's just interesting to think about the full range and how that can impact things relatively early on during those that foundational phase. And then the last thing about the third house that we noticed was really important is just the idea of mobility and short distance travel. And we've talked about walking and things like that and crawling early on, but also having the experience of mobility and being able to, let's say learning how to ride a bike, for example, can sometimes be an experience that somebody has or a transit that somebody has relatively early on or I don't know, like riding around on a skateboard or roller skates or other things like that. And the experience of exploring your neighborhood and your immediate environment. I don't know if that's changed at all. But for me, at least, millennials, that was a foundational, important, early experience of freedom as the ability to move around yourself, third house, neighborhood, and local environment. And I'm sure that that's more important for some people and less important for others. But that's also probably something that's reflected in the chart in different ways.
- [59:11]
A
Yeah. Like, if you're looking at earlier childhood, it could be also indicated of the parent and where they're taking you. Do they take you to many classes, or are they always on the move so you're always going places with them? Because I do know parents that like to always be out in social and take their kids to many different little small events. And then you got the other side, where, let's say they're seven and up and they live in a neighborhood. And yeah, as millennials, we were always out riding scooters, riding bikes. And that's where we got to do a lot of our socializing was when it wasn't really in school. I mean, it was in school, too, but it was mainly out in the neighborhood. Like, it was the most fun thing to do because you're out socializing, you're playing games, you're strategizing. There's a lot going on out there. At least the way I grew up, I did have the. The neighborhood and a lot of kids out. So that kind of like help expand. And where you see those relationships come in with others, that's more seventh House. But that. That communication and a lot of the movement and riding bikes and things like that.
- [60:17]
B
Yeah, and one of the things we realized in the Third House episode is that in modern astrology, we're used to only thinking of the 11th house as having to do with friends. But in ancient astrology, the third house had to do with friends as well. Like the other sextile to the ascendant. And part of the reason for that is oftentimes a lot of your early friends end up being the people that you grew up with in your neighborhood that were just like, who is available in your immediate environment not too far from your house? And I think that's still relevant and comes up sometimes in very interesting ways if there's something distinctive about that in a child's life. For example, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were first introduced because their mothers knew each other and they lived in the same neighborhood, and their mothers introduced them on a play date or something like that. And then they became friends eventually, and then grew up and started writing, you know, scripts together. And Became famous, like winning an Oscar for Good Will Hunting, which they wrote when they were in their early 20s or something like that.
- [61:22]
A
Definitely, yeah. And that makes me think too of just how much autonomy develops when you look at past seven versus the earlier one. Because again, you don't really choose your neighborhood. It's more like those are the kids that are outside available to play with. You can't really go off to other neighborhoods. You have to just deal with what's there. And sometimes it's not as great where they don't get along with you or they don't like you for whatever reason. And it could feel a little bit more isolating. I mean, I experience the boat, the two. Both sides of it, where I would go in my grandmother's and those kids didn't want to play with me. So I just felt more isolated there versus at home and that neighborhood. So, yeah, it's more about. There's no choice. These. This is what's here available. And then once you get older, you get more choices on who you decide to make your friend. And if you decide to talk to them or not. And you get to go out and expand further to make those connections.
- [62:20]
B
That makes sense. Maybe that has to do. Just thinking, with the first house, you go downwards into the part in the bottom half of the chart, which is the realm in the ancient planetary joy scheme that has to do with the moon and the lunar section. And so maybe there is an element of that which is more initially in life, at least the circumstances that you sort of have early in life that are more outside of your control than in your control. And that's true in the first six houses, until eventually you get to the seventh. And then it goes above the horizontal, the area that has to do with the sun and the spirit, which is more volition traditional and choice oriented. And then you get to the 11th house, which might be the friends in some instances that you choose to be friends with or choose not to.
- [63:12]
A
Right. Wouldn't perfections also do that?
- [63:16]
B
Yeah, that's true. Perfections in the first several years. Right?
- [63:20]
A
Yeah, I found that. That's interesting.
- [63:22]
B
I like that. That's good. All right. We're finding stuff. I know we're getting stuck on this house, but just to mention, you mentioned, like grandparents. And I think that's also really important. We were having debates about what house grandparents should be and whether it's a fourth or third house thing because there's different traditional precedents and there's different conceptual precedents. But I'd been leaning more to the third house and seeing it show up sometimes strongly in the third house in addition to other extended family like cousins or aunts or uncles and other things like that. But grandparents sometimes in the third house as being the house that comes before for the fourth house which is the parents proper. And then you get the fifth house which is the native's children. So it creates this sequence where it's like grandparents, third house, parents, fourth house, children, fifth house. And there's different ways of approaching that, so we don't have to get into that. But I just wanted to mention that briefly because sometimes, let's say if a third house is important, sometimes the grandparent relationship can be much more important in a person's life for some reason than for other people.
- [64:29]
A
Yeah, I was just pulling up real quick because I wanted to verify. But there could be also a child that decides to continue some type of lineage from the grandparent, which is quite odd. It's not always the case, but at least for me. My son has already stated that he wants to be a doctor. He's so young, he's only eight, so obviously that can subject to change. But the reason he has said that is because his grandfather was a doctor. And then that's like a four generation thing of doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor. And. And that correlation there with the third. His son is there in the third where he has already stated that that's something he wants to do as some type of mission. Again, I take it with a grain of salt because it's so young, but I just find it quite interesting there with the sun there and just it's Virgo, you know, it makes me think, doctor and already making this statement just because of the grandfather. And every time he would talk to the grandfather and ask him, what do you do? And you're a doctor and you help people. I want to help people. And there's a big emphasis there on wanting to help people. But it's. That's because of the grandfather, at least from what I've made the connection.
- [65:47]
B
Nice, I love that. Yeah, that's great. And I could see that and just the influence of the grandparents in that way. Or in other instances, the grandparents can have a greater role in some families of taking over care if a parent isn't available. Other things like that, or there's a lot of different scenarios. But that can be important in the instances where it is important in a person's life for some reason.
- [66:13]
A
Yeah. And I've seen a lot too of those where they end up for some reason living with the grandparents for amount of time or they end up just completely being with them full time. So that's something I would also look there at the third house and see if there's connections between the fourth to the third or vice versa. Not to say that that has to be, but that would be something I would look at.
- [66:36]
B
Yeah, we had a crazy example. I think it was in the third or fourth house example of episode of Jack Nicholson who his mother had him. It was like a teen pregnancy and it was early 20th century, so it was different circumstances then. But he ended up being raised thinking that the person that was his grandmother was his mother and that his biological mother was his sister. And he didn't find out until he was like an adult. He was in his 40s or something like that. And a reporter told him so there can be just really unique weird situations that sometimes come up through fate and things like that as well. But it can show up through the third house in some instances or third and fourth house when the grandparents are important for some reason.
- [67:27]
A
Right. Makes me think, I wonder if there was any Uranus sudden news there.
- [67:32]
B
Yeah, it was a crazy whole combination. I forget the whole thing. It was like Venus retrograde ruling the third house. And like. Yeah, there's a lot there. But sometimes unique situations come about as a result of fate. And we can see that area as important sometimes with the third house. But that brings us to a much more important house, an incredibly important house for this topic, which is the fourth house, which is the house that primarily has to do with the parents. Like the parents as well as the home and the living situation as well. Two of the primary significations of the fourth house.
- [68:10]
A
Right. The home environment and what's kind of like the aroma of it. Because again, when you're looking at child's charts, they're not able to set their home space and to decorate it and to choose. So there's a lot more of just what environment am I placed in? What's going on around Sometimes it's just where many people live in the house where you see that energy. So it's not that something's going on with them in the home, but there could just be a lot going on within the home. So things between the parents that might be going on or sibling dynamics too. So it's more just how can they relate in that area? Or at least for me, I'm offering how can we bring comfort here? Depending on what. What the environment is. You have to really look to see what's going on there. And if there's any support that's needed.
- [69:03]
B
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So the home as like a foundational thing. And sometimes I know that shows up. If there's moving or really significant move, sometimes early in life, you might see that as a significant transit that comes up, whether that's a positive move or whether it's one that felt really destabilizing for some reason to the child in terms of the early home environment and living situation, or even in extreme instances where a person moves around a lot, let's say, due to the parents work, so that there's this constant experience of change there, as opposed to the opposite end of the spectrum of somebody who grows up living in the same place or same house, let's say, for their entire early life or childhood.
- [69:54]
A
Right, yeah. And that also has. You can look at the sign there. And then the planet. That's where we go more towards what's on the cusp, what planets are there, what's the ruler of that house? Because you do want to see. Is it something that they're not. That they're okay with, because again, they don't have choice. But if it's a fixed sign, maybe moving so much might not be something that they would experience as something positive. It could feel more destabilizing because again, the home is also where they retreat for their emotional security. So if that's constantly being uprooted, then that's where they might experience some internal upheaval. And again, some children feel okay with expressing how they feel and some don't. It just depends on the. The safety and how safe they feel expressing themselves. And if, if you do see that maybe it's more fixed energy, and maybe those might not. That might not be what they want, then that's where you provide. How can we bring some type of emotional security, give them a little space that they can retreat to, to feel that sense of security and stability of the fourth house. Home of roots.
- [71:02]
B
Right. Nice. I like that. That makes sense. And then even if somebody has the ruler of the ascendant in the fourth house, they may be more of a homebody or somebody that really loves their home and living situation and prefers to be there more than anywhere else. And that would be something. If there was the ruler of the Ascendant or something like that, I would think would become evident pretty early on in a person's life.
- [71:31]
A
Yeah, definitely. And I think also synastry comes into play there too, because you want to see if that's okay with the parent, because there is circumstances where you might have an outward father that's more like, go out there. Go out there and do things and. And you need to. To be out there, be more physical and more extroverted. Because they are extroverted. But then you have a child that maybe just wants to be more of a homebody. And that might. That's where you might see that friction come up there between parent and child. Because they're not. They're just seeing what they're used to doing and how they are versus, you know, ascended in the fourth. Or they might want to be home. So we want to make sure that we're bringing in something, the explanation as to maybe why they're more prone to that. And it's not something that's bad. And again, they're still developing, so it might change over time. It's just something that's going on right now.
- [72:29]
B
Right, yeah, that makes sense. It could be a temporary thing through a transit versus a more permanent thing through a placement. And that brings up the other part of the fourth house, which is just the parents, the experience of the parents in different ways through the fourth house, through planets in the fourth house or through the ruler of the fourth house and what it's doing in the chart.
- [72:53]
A
Right. Yeah. Like the authority figures on the parental roles. You see a lot of that there because you've got the opposing 10th house. And to me, at least, MCIC is not always there. But if it is there, then it's even more emphasis there on the parental roles. You might have one that's more authoritative, one that's more lenient, both that are more authoritative and how that impacts the child. That's all gonna come into play.
- [73:21]
B
Yeah. I did an episode with Pallas Augustine in November about the IC as it floats around and falls in different whole sign houses. And it was really clear that both the fourth whole sign house was relevant for parents and home and living situation. But then the IC was also relevant as a secondary indicator that could. Could float around different parts of the chart and fall in different whole sign houses and then import those fourth house significations of home and parents into different whole sign houses. Like the third house or the fifth house, for example.
- [73:58]
A
Yeah. Where you see those themes pop up for some reason there, like if you said the third, then that might have to do something there with the communication and. Yeah, I think you just go by basis on what you're seeing.
- [74:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. All right. And we talked about this a bit, but just there can be different experiences of the parent even in the same Family. And some of that is. It's always so interesting and tricky how some of that is like things that are objectively happening due to whatever the circumstances are between the parent and the child. Whereas sometimes there can be things that are like the way the person subjectively experiences the parent might not be objectively true because of something the parent has done or something like that, but it could be just based on the perspective of the child for some reason. And that's always a tricky thing about human relationships and the subjective nature of experience. But that sometimes may be coming through in the fourth house and chart placements in different ways.
- [75:06]
A
Yeah, definitely. And, and you can see the extremes of both sides. Like usually if it's so negative, if it's negative you won't, you probably won't see it pop up. I mean they might not be coming to you for a chart reading, but it's more about to. In, in finding a way to, to bring some balance between two different people. Because the, the mother or the father or, or whoever is in charge there, who is the authority figures in the home can have very two different ways of doing things. And I think it is hard when you're trying to have a consultation with people who see things very differently and we're trying to merge it together to help the child. So it's a very big balancing act there and there, there does need to be also compromise there and how willing they're going to be to. To compromise on their ways.
- [76:00]
B
Okay. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes let's say a Saturn placement might be an experience of a parent who's distant or cold for some reason. But sometimes it can manifest very literally with the absence of a parent for some reason. And therefore that feeling of coldness or distance is a result of a literal set of circumstances, let's say in the person's life that are being described. Described by some placement early on.
- [76:31]
A
Yeah, it could be a certain situation that occurs, a one time only event or it can be an ongoing theme. I think that's also important too when you're looking at these aspects and you're looking at the planets there. It doesn't say that that's going to always be the ongoing theme because it could just be that the parent had to leave for a certain amount of time in childhood but then came back, but then that's still imprinted there and it still caused that. But it's not something that is continuously ongoing. So I think that's also something to keep in mind when you're doing child's charts is you don't want to indicate that it's going to be ongoing and it's always going to be this type of way. And it could just be a one time event either in early childhood or the middle or teenage years.
- [77:15]
B
Okay.
- [77:16]
A
And that's more of the development. Yeah. The transits and stuff like that and activations.
- [77:21]
B
Got it. Okay. Yeah. So things that you were writing down for the Fourth House are like emotional climate, the stability or instability, the feeling tone of home and other things like that, which can also be really positive. I mean, in some circumstances with positive and supportive placements there, there can just be a very positive experience of parents or positive experience of home and living situation where for some people that's like the best part of their life for some reason in different ways.
- [77:57]
A
Oh yes, yes. If you have such a beautiful placement there of the fourth and you know, you could have Jupiter ruling it and it could be in cancer and that's such a nurturing giant energy there to bring to the fourth. So I mean I would emphasize on that and bring in more of that goodness. Accentuate that as a kind of like I. I want to be careful with the word like gift or just something that is, you know, provided there. And it's something that is quite lucky, at least to me. What I. From what my own personal experience and how to just let per. The person know like, hey, this is great energy here and what else could we. Could we provide and stuff like that. Just be careful not to overindulge a case of. Of course. On any of the topics.
- [78:50]
B
Right.
- [78:50]
A
Yeah, but those are fun to see.
- [78:53]
B
Yeah, for sure. And then the last thing is it really is your roots and your foundations. The fourth House is something I talked about a lot recently in the Fourth House series. And sometimes that can refer to your lineage and your ancestry and that being more important to you for different reasons, which can happen with some people. Yeah.
- [79:15]
A
Usually they end up discovering that much probably around like 12. I mean that's usually where they start to reference it or it becomes some type of major theme for them and more as they grow older because I guess when they're much younger, it's more just kind of what's around. But then they start to reflect on it as they get older and then they reference back to it or there's a big attachment there to some type of traditional theme or ancestral theme that they. That people do in the house and things like that that they want to continue doing.
- [79:48]
B
Got it. That makes sense. Yeah. And different polarities in terms of extremes of that. If somebody that comes from has a rich, let's say, family or ancestral tradition that they're very tied into or that their parents are tied into and they pass that forward versus, let's say, somebody that doesn't. Or if there's not a connection with that lineage for some reason, or not like a rich, rich sort of like history surrounding it.
- [80:14]
A
Yeah. Or they could just build their own. It's also too, I feel like building your own or starting your own new lineage or your own new way of how you're going to create these roots. And I just say that from a. From experience on. I don't want to carry on what was taught. But then now it's like a fresh, you know, bare ground that now I'm planting these deep roots and I want it to flourish. So again, there comes that autonomy of what was provided versus what now I choose to bring and grow and manifest. So, yeah, those different polarities on whether it was great or not so great and whether they choose to keep it or not.
- [80:55]
B
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I could think Uranus, for example, in the fourth could be somebody that really wants to break free of some things related to the fourth house and their parents or their lineage or things like that, and to do things in a way that is completely different or that might look even weird to the parents or be a sense of tension, but is connected with feelings of authenticity and liberation and freedom for the person who has that placement.
- [81:26]
A
Yeah, yeah. And that's definitely something that whatever happens via transit or something like that, or something that they just begin to acknowledge as they gain more autonomy and are able to make their own choices. I would definitely see Uranus there as someone that wants to just break out and do something completely different and be okay with it too. Some people might not.
- [81:50]
B
Right. Well, and that's gonna become hugely important, obviously. Also, when a person starts moving into the teenage years and everybody starts having certain transits around that time that are the same generationally, that can indicate some of that stuff. But it's like some people might go into, let's say, having fourth house transits that are more tricky, like a Uranus transit through the fourth house. And they might be wanting more freedom and liberation when it comes to the relationship with the parents, or let's say Saturn goes through there, and maybe they start feeling more distance or more coldness for some reason, versus other transits where maybe that transition is a little bit smoother. And it's interesting thinking about that as a developmental stage at some point, moving from childhood into the teenage years and how that relationship goes in terms of the relationship with the parents. Right.
- [82:50]
A
Because you also have to think of the chart itself and then you're looking at transits. But if the bottom is, you know, not so heavy or full or you have a lot of transits happening on different areas, then you're not going to get much of action there. I'd say it's more when you have a lot of transits that go on, especially during early childhood that may be conjuncting planets there or the ruler of that house. And sometimes you don't always get that with every chart. So it just really depends on the chart itself.
- [83:23]
B
Yeah, that makes sense. All right, I know we're running out of time, so we should start going through some of the houses over the next 30 minutes or so here. Let's move on to the fifth house. How does the fifth house show up from the perspective of early childhood experiences?
- [83:40]
A
Oh, I love fifth house. It's one of my favorites. Fifth house is their creativity. So in early childhood, creativity is a way to help children explore and learn and just experience expand. So that's like their hobbies, things that they can dive into and how they relate to those type of recreational activities, whether it's a sport or just something that they do for leisure. So it's a B, it's like a. Between sports and more of your, you know, your, your playing things and things that they enjoy doing and how we can bring that up for them. So that house is so fun for me because you, you can offer a lot of.
- [84:19]
B
Mm, nice. I like that. Yeah. Creativity and fun and games. And in doing the fifth house episode, it was interesting seeing some instances where games were really important to people that had like a heavy emphasis on the fifth house. And in some instances when like the ruler of the fifth house was there, either their creativity or their engagement in certain types of games or sports actually became important to their life direction. But obviously the foundation for that was laid in childhood.
- [84:51]
A
Yes. Yeah. Where they made a big emphasis on it or a parent might have made a big emphasis on either that sport or that type of creative outlet, whether it was chosen by the child or not. Because sometimes it's something that a parent can impose on them to learn versus them choosing it on their own because they actually enjoy it. And that's where you go to planets there, rulership and things like that.
- [85:16]
B
Yeah. Like Venus and Serena Williams being raised by their dad to be top tier tennis players, for example, and his influence in that as well as their just focus and Dedication to the game or Tiger woods, for example, similarly being raised, playing golf by his dad and different scenarios like that.
- [85:39]
A
Yeah, it's more about is this an expectation on what I need to do or is it something that I chosen on my own? And I think that especially if you have, like, Pisces there or Jupiter's ruling, you can offer different ones. As an astrologer, I would say give a variety to them and let them choose which one they like the most. And if they don't like one, it's okay to let it go and no pressure. That way we keep it flexible and creative and fun, and we don't put this expectation on it.
- [86:12]
B
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so creativity, fun and games, other things. Are there other things that you would mention with the fifth house?
- [86:23]
A
Just a creative interest. But I think that falls in there because that's like their artistic expression. Obviously, we see other things as they get older, but those are not major themes there, especially not in childhood.
- [86:36]
B
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure at some point, because the fifth house is the house that has to do with procreation and stuff like that. I remember it was already in fourth or fifth grade when we did in elementary school, the sex education stuff and other things like that. And at some point, the question coming up of where do babies come from? Or other things like that, I'm sure for some people is a transit that they have at some point earlier in their life where they understand that or as they transition from going from childhood into the teenage years, the development of that as well as being connected to the fifth house in some instances, and whether that's smooth or not smooth for some reason.
- [87:17]
A
Yeah, I would say more about any type of transits or emphasis. There is something being activated is where you might see that, especially if they're much older. Right after. For sure, after the age of seven is where you see those themes.
- [87:33]
B
Got it. Okay.
- [87:34]
A
Yeah.
- [87:35]
B
All right. So that's the fifth house. Well, there's one last thing there, though. I remember being in some people grow up relatively early on having a feeling of wanting to be parents or wanting to have children someday when they grow up. And I know that's different for different people, but I'm sure there's some people who have heavy fifth house emphasis and somewhere relatively early on decided that they wanted to be a parent as part of their life's work and in fact, grew up and did that. And I'm sure that's probably something that comes up for certain people relatively young as well when it comes to fifth House placements.
- [88:20]
A
Yeah, I would say maybe like ruler of the fifth and the fifth. That would be a great one there. Or Venus. They're exalted, where there's this emphasis and you look. Usually when you see that, it's more of, like, this desire. So you'll usually see, like, Venus or Jupiter, where they actually want that and they see it as some type of goal or objective.
- [88:45]
B
Yeah, that makes sense. Or the ruler of the ascendant in the fifth house or whatever.
- [88:49]
A
Right. As part of their identity.
- [88:52]
B
Yeah, part of their identity. Or ruler of the 10th and the 5th.
- [88:56]
A
Working with children or something.
- [88:58]
B
Yeah. Like being a teacher or even being a doctor that helps deliver babies or something like that. A lot of different scenarios.
- [89:08]
A
I didn't think of that as a child, but I see it now when I have the ruler of my fifth and the tenth conjunct, the midheaven, where I want to do child astrology.
- [89:18]
B
You said, do you want to share your chart or do you feel like it? I know, yeah. Okay, let's take a look. I'll describe it for the audio listeners. We've got a chart with Aries rising. Your moon is in Aries in the first whole sign house. The sun is in capricorn in the 10th house. So you were talking about your fifth house being Leo. Your fifth whole sign house is Leo. And the ruler of the fifth is the sun, which is in Capricorn in the tenth house with the midheaven and with your Capricorn stellium. And you're literally. Yeah. The topic of children is part of your career.
- [89:53]
A
Yeah. Child astrology is usually where I put a lot of emphasis on. And creativity. So being creative on my own, apart from doing astrology and then also wanting to help parents by using astrology. So there's a lot of connections there between the 9th house, 10th house, 5th house, the ascendant ruler. All of that ties in, I feel, like, pretty well. And with Neptune as well.
- [90:19]
B
Right. I love that. And that's cool that you're born in January of 1990. So it's very close. January 3rd of 1990. So it's very close to the Saturn Neptune conjunction that was occurring then with Saturn at 15, Capricorn and Neptune at 12. And so this recurrence transit, I was telling you before this episode of having Saturn, Neptune go Exactly. Just recently, like a week or two ago, that you're having, like, a recurrence transit of that placement right now. And it'd be interesting if this is, like, part of that in terms of having this Discussion.
- [90:54]
A
Yeah, I mean, I don't remember that transit. It was definitely there on birth, but I did think about that too. And also the Neptune Uranus conjunction as well. So it was like a massive conjunction there around that timeframe. Even though Uranus is a bit further out to the sun, but they're still all there, and they make it a conjunction also to the midheaven. So it's like this big compact energy there and a big emphasis. So I am excited to see also the remainder of the transit to see how things unfold.
- [91:29]
B
Yeah, totally. Okay, cool. Well, so let's move on to the sixth house. And the sixth house. The primary things it comes up with for adults was work and the workplace in general, as well as health and matters relating to health or sometimes to illness. And we were talking about this yesterday and I was thinking about it in terms of. There's some people that grow up where illness or injuries or sickness can be a more major part in childhood than others. Or in some instances, you can have also the early experience of getting sick for some reason, even if that's not a normal thing, or having an injury or something like that. And how that can sometimes be a formative experience in early childhood.
- [92:27]
A
Yeah, there's more like an emphasis or an awareness about the health and body that you might see children do because just. It just depends on the child. But I have seen where children are a little bit more health conscious or it's been taught, or they. They themselves are just more aware of it due to circumstances that could have occurred already early on for them, or that they just want to be a little bit more. What's the word? Hypergenic, or just clean and cleanly. So it is. It is health, but it's also about, at least in childhood, about their routines. So you usually begin to teach children how to have their own chores and being responsible for. For cleaning up your space in your room, in your bed, and brushing your teeth. Again, that comes back to the health and learning those things on how to bathe themselves and brush their teeth and that hygiene.
- [93:22]
B
Nice. I like that. That makes a lot of sense.
- [93:25]
A
Yeah. And also pets, too. When children have pets, you usually see that, that big emphasis there. I've seen where the child literally lives on a farm. So part of their daily routine is to go out, collect eggs and things like that. And they actually really enjoy it and being out and doing those tasks that have to do with the animals.
- [93:44]
B
Nice. I love that. Yeah. Because that can be really formative and really important and more important for others, especially if there's an early foundational experience of that with animals or with pets. And then for some people, they'll grow up and make that part of their future in some way.
- [94:02]
A
Right? Yeah. That they want to continue. And they also want to have a farm, and they still want to have a lot of pets and things like that because it was so formative early on. Or you can also have the opposite of where they grew up like that. And then they want something completely different as they get older.
- [94:19]
B
Right. Or if there was, like, a bad experience of pets for some reason early on and they don't like. Like if somebody was, like, bitten by a dog on a bad transit and they don't want to have dogs or something like that as a result.
- [94:34]
A
Yeah, I've seen that too. Where children get any little experience that they have, if it's negative, then it's almost like they cross it out entirely and there can become a fear or a phobia around that animal or that whatever type of situation occurred there.
- [94:51]
B
Right? For sure. Yeah. So that's good. And then work. You mentioned that with routines for children. And then I'm sure at some point during that transition from childhood to teenage years, at some point there can be that experience of getting your first job or doing some sort of work like that, where you're working for somebody under some scenario as a sixth house experience.
- [95:19]
A
Oh, yeah. When they get their first job around, like, 16, and they. They feel either really good about it, or it could just feel like this is just a means to get some money and they're not very happy with it, so it comes with more autonomy. I think there's a lot of excitement there about getting a job and being able to make their money and move a little bit more on their own. It's also about, like, homework, too, that they bring home, so they still have that responsibility of doing homework, making sure you're studying for your test, and then also household chores. Did we do the dishes? And then if they choose to get a job, then that. So it's juggling a lot. So it really. You want to look at that house and the ruler of the house, and if there is a big emphasis there or not.
- [96:06]
B
Nice. Okay. All right. Well, I think we could linger there, but I want to keep us moving so we get through all the houses. Let's go into the seventh house, which is the primary house. That has to do with relationships and partnership in astrology in general. How does this show up within the context of children's charts?
- [96:24]
A
Yeah, that's more like your Peer dynamics. So especially mainly in school where they begin to choose friends, they tend to link up or they'll have like one best friend or two. Usually you'll see a three, three group or just one best friend. So. And you'll also see there if there's rivalries, where there begins to be conflict between other children mainly usually occurs at school. It could also occur in the neighborhood. But there's more peer relationships there, whether it's good or bad.
- [96:57]
B
Right. So how do they operate in one on one relationships when they're taking it outside of the parent child dynamic, the fourth house dynamic, and moving it more into a one on one relationship with other people?
- [97:11]
A
Yeah, and it's a lot more dynamic there too because what you have with your parent dynamic and relationship is going to be much different at a child that's also around your same age. So you're not developmentally fully developed. So there's a lot of immaturity and. And they learn a lot too. I think they learn a lot trial and error there. And they learn a lot too about compromising, not compromising, what they'll put up with and things like that. So it's very vast.
- [97:41]
B
Got it. Okay. And I'm sure, you know, the seventh house is the place of relationships and marriage and I'm sure there's early instances of like a childhood crush or whatever that early experience is at some point of the idea of relationship and wanting to be in relationship for different reasons and then learning. Yeah, just the, the ins and outs of that or learning about that as a concept.
- [98:07]
A
Yeah, I think so too. Especially like around maybe. I mean it's different for each child. You know, you might get a child that already is talking about a crush at third grade versus fifth grade and middle school. But I mean I have seen certain people met or children to me, because I have my own that have mentioned already like talking about a crush and things like that. And they're still so very young. But it also could indicate the parents marriage dynamic. Not to say that they are involved in it, but it could, you know, if things are going on that it bleeds into the home, that could be something as well where they take from what they've seen. So if the parent dynamic relationship in that marriage is positive, then they get kind of like it's more of a subconscious thing where they're observing it and seeing it and seeing that dynamic and they might take that on to what they might expect in adulthood because they grew up seeing that if the parents are affectionate, they might expect that and if not, then they might see it weird when there are affection there between a couple.
- [99:13]
B
Yeah, I'm always surprised at how well that works about sometimes seventh house placements indicating the person's early experience of not just relationships, but of marriage and partnership through whatever the relationship dynamics is between the two parents. And for example, sometimes if Saturn is there. For example, one of my famous examples was Kurt Cobain that had Saturn in the seventh house and a seventh house stellium in Pisces and his parents divorced at seven or something like that at the Saturn square. And his experience of that was a formative thing in his early life about relationships and partnership and marriage and things like that.
- [99:59]
A
Yeah, it's. And especially it depends too on the age, if it happened early on versus a little bit older. Because usually when they're older they can tend to try to tune it out where they, they purposely will leave the house because they don't want to deal with it, they don't want to hear it. But when they're so much younger, they're, they can't really go anywhere. You know, they, they have to sit there and experience it, whether it's tumultuous or whether it's great. So I think that's too. You can look at planets there and you can also look at the ruler and, and the aspects to the ruler and also transits too. You wouldn't want to predict any type of divorce. Which comes back to ethics where you could see something that might occur via transit. But again there's, there's no reason to bring that up in the, in a chart reading. It's just going to cause anxieties and things like that. So you have to really make sure that you're just giving information that's gonna be helpful and stay on topic and not kind of expand out and make these predictions based on some things that you see that could occur.
- [101:05]
B
Yeah, that's a good point. I've said astrologers should use that medical dictum of do no harm. And sometimes in astrology just cause you can say something or you think you can see something doesn't necessarily mean that you should. I think is often a good rule in terms of what's gonna be the most helpful for the client or for the chart owner.
- [101:28]
A
Right? Yeah. And if that's the case, then if that does occur, then you just wait for the parent to come, if they choose to, to come to you. But that's more about them and their chart. We don't really want to include the child there. You can give Advice on how they could help the child navigate it if it does occur. But you don't wanna predict it, let alone mention it or anything like that. You just wait for things to unfold on their own and wait to see there.
- [101:55]
B
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So seventh house relationships. Let's move on to the eighth house, which is tricky because the eighth house has to do with. Traditionally, it's the house that has to do with mortality and death and things surrounding death, as well as shared resources and other people's money. And I think it's important, though, and can still be relevant in childhood in terms of thinking about what is a child's first experience at some point of either the concept of mortality and either their own mortality or the mortality of other people in their lives, either abstractly or sometimes, let's say through a transit, a person's first experience of that through, let's say, the loss of a grandparent or somebody else that they know in their life, or even through the loss of a pet or something like that. At some point there's gonna be some foundational experience of the idea of mortality and the finality of that that a person has to experience at some point earlier in their life as a concept. And the eighth house is one of the areas where we might see that.
- [103:04]
A
Yeah, you could see also divorce there. So that's like an ending which shifts then the dynamics of the resources. So you could end up being very well off. This is just, I'm giving example, you could be very well off. And then all of a sudden an ending of the relationship occurs. You don't have any control of that. But then it shifts the financial situation between those shared resources. Then that impacts you. Let's just say, worst case scenario, they end up having to downgrade. Then there's this anxiety and fear of. Of then money that comes in from probably, let's say in this example, the lack, or like you said, a death that occurs from, you know, grandparent or something like that. And then they're ending up contemplating that, sometimes possibly even fearing it, especially when they're young, of death and having to think about those type of topics very early on. So it's very touchy around that one where you have to, I would say, bring in additional help, if you can. That way the child is receiving services on their own, like a play therapist, things like that, that can help them navigate that without having to involve them as much as you can. You know, you don't want to involve them that much, but they're going to see those things and we want to provide those type of things that can help them.
- [104:28]
B
Sure, yeah, yeah, I would think you mentioned that. And that'd also come up in the concept of like sharing. And whether like sharing is something that goes relatively well or if there's issues surrounding sharing I would think would come up as part of that dynamic between the second house and like your possessions versus the eighth house and like other people's possessions as a possible thing in terms of that dynamic in those houses.
- [104:56]
A
Yeah, definitely. Especially if there's siblings and if they're much younger. You see a lot of issues with sharing. I know a lot of parents are gonna know what I'm talking about. When you deal with this whole fighting over what's mine, what's not mine. And there's so many battles over possessions that you see. And some people are okay with it and some really hone in on that. And for some reason it goes on into more older stages where they still are very possessive over the things and not wanting to share those type of resources with others
- [105:30]
B
that balance or even concepts of theft I see come up in adult charts and I'm sure that that comes up sometimes in child's charts in terms of the possibility of that. I remember being really young and taking a toy from a store and then being reprimanded for that. And just that early experience of something like that versus. I've seen adult charts of people that have challenging 8th house placements and sometimes taking other people's things being a theme that comes up as an adult. And I'm sure there was probably early previews of that early on.
- [106:08]
A
Yeah, I think too that has to do with the dynamic that's in the household. And if that's. That's something that they're seeing and that they're aware of, whether it's unknowingly or if they kind of. Because you know, the eighth house is also like things that are not really spoken. So it's kind of like, you know it and everybody's trying to keep it hush, hush, but it's still kind of like something that the child could become aware of. And then they end up. Because children end up a lot just replicating or copying what they see, whether consciously or unconsciously. Again, it's not always the case, but that's. I mean, I know I've done that as well. I don't know if there was any transits there, but where you kind of test things to see what if I do that, what's going to happen? Will I get away with it? And Then there's also the fear that comes with it of getting caught. And then it's almost like you never do it again because that anxiety got instilled there very early on. Something bad happening and then being reprimanded for it.
- [107:09]
B
Right, yeah, that makes sense. And what the person's experience is, and do they get caught and reprimanded or is it the opposite and somehow they get rewarded and then they grow up thinking that they can do that and get rewarded and be successful doing that in different ways?
- [107:27]
A
Yeah, I haven't really had much experience with that. Exactly. I only have my own. But yeah, I also stole and then got caught. And now ever since then I was like, absolutely not. Never again. I'm so scared. So I could only imagine if it was the other way around.
- [107:45]
B
Yeah, me too. I guess I was just thinking of the people that grew up, like the Bernie Madoffs or the Ponzi schemes or other people like that, or the Louvre heist that occurred last year where you have thieves that grow up in steel paintings or something like that. Anyway, that's getting us far afield. Let's move on to the next house. Let's go to the ninth house, which is traditionally the house of travel, like long distance travel of foreign countries and places and foreign cultures. It's also the house that has to do with higher education and religion and especially beliefs like what you believe in and different things like that. But how does the ninth house show up in a child context next?
- [108:29]
A
I would say for sure, especially when you see a religion, because that ends up popping up very early in childhood where they send children to, to church and then they send them off to this little classroom church. And this is just my own experience where you go to the little church classroom and, and you're taught all these things and it's very, very heavily emphasized there on religion and from very early on. But then also you can have just a child who grew up with family who live abroad, or if you're here in the United States, like an RV family that always likes to, you know, drive around and travel long distance around the country, or just a family that puts a lot of emphasis on teaching their children about other cultures. If they're not financially able to travel, then for some reason there could be an emphasis on teaching them about the other culture. So let's say, for example, they live here in the US but they're from an another country. They want to make sure that they keep those traditions and teach them and stuff like that. That leaks into the fourth house. Of home as well. But there's still an emphasis there on a different culture than what you're growing up in.
- [109:40]
B
Yeah, that makes complete sense. Or in middle school, I remember starting to learn. I picked French as a foreign language, for example. And so sometimes early on you have early experiences of exposure to different cultures, maybe, or developing an interest in traveling or going somewhere else than you might have started out with.
- [110:01]
A
Yeah, and it's good because at that age, I'm pretty sure you chose that on your own. Or did your parents choose you to take that class?
- [110:08]
B
No, it was my choice.
- [110:09]
A
Yeah. So there's that natural curiosity that you had about. I mean, I don't know what options were available, but there's a natural curiosity there as well. To learn about other cultures is one manifestation of that.
- [110:22]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. And then other cultures travel. Probably the first trip, for example, first big trip or experience of maybe going out of the country at some point as a child, if your parents take you on a long distance trip or you visit someplace else, I'm sure would be experienced as a significant ninth house transit.
- [110:43]
A
Yeah. And also too spirituality. So either if you have a transit there and you get to travel abroad and see different places, or just that the how instead of the opposite of. Of the religion, you could also have a child that grows up in a spiritual home, kind of like mine, where I don't really hide what I do and how I am. And I mainly follow the cycles of. Of the earth. So I do these little celebrations and the children are involved. But again, I try not to force it. I don't want it to be a religious thing. So it's something that's around and they see it, but I'm not putting that enforcement on it like we have to do this, but it's inevitable. They see it and they question and they ask a lot of things. So there's a lot there of whether we're dealing with foreign lands and travel or if we're dealing with things that are in the home and what's being taught or not being taught.
- [111:40]
B
Yeah, that makes sense. And even I've seen like a religious and spiritual context for the ninth house in terms of developing that. But also even just one's beliefs, and sometimes that can be politics. For example, I've seen people's political views change during a heavy ninth house transit. So I'm sure in some instances part of the experience of that is growing up in a household where the parents are highly politically opinionated or focused on politics, and therefore that that filters down to the child as well.
- [112:12]
A
Yeah. And also I've seen one where the ninth house that the parents are lawyers. Quite interesting there, that manifestation as well. So it doesn't mean that they are exploring it, but that that is in their home and something that is around them is that either the parent is a lawyer and then maybe they might even choose to be a lawyer as well. Because that is. I know that 9th house there has to do with law or lawyers, right?
- [112:38]
B
Totally. Totally.
- [112:40]
A
Just case.
- [112:42]
B
Nice. Okay. I think that's good. I know that we could linger there. I'm trying to think of anything major to mention there, but maybe we should move on to the 10th house.
- [112:49]
A
Yeah.
- [112:50]
B
All right. So the 10th house traditionally has to do with one's career and overall life direction and reputation and social standing. How does that show up in the context of a child's chart?
- [113:04]
A
That's more of like the authority figures. So mainly I would say like from 0 to 7, it's more about learning or there's boundaries that are placed there, expectations. And you can't go here, you can't go there. And there's a lot of boundary testing too. That happens with toddlers where they want to see how far they can push that. Again, if there's heavy emphasis there. And then after seven is where you see more about the evaluation from teachers. So getting these grades and being graded and analyzed by the teachers, the expectations that the parents can also put on you when it comes to school, what you should make, the grades that they expect for you to make, whether they're flexible or not. Because sometimes you can see parents that they don't really put a big emphasis on, that they care more about other things. And then there's some where they put a very emphasis on. Has a heavy emphasis on you have to get these grades and they have to be here. So it you really want to see the planet there, any planets there. And also the ruler of that house to see if it's something that's Saturn and. Or there's more restriction there and heaviness. Or is it Jupiter and you know, you have a little bit more expansiveness. And maybe you yourself just like to achieve things like your example of what you did in fifth grade and choosing to do that on your own and how that manifested for you.
- [114:34]
B
Yeah, for sure. Having that early experience of being more career oriented or trying to be more public and have a public reputation doing public speaking or other things like that. And then I'm sure early on, for example, you had mentioned the example of your son possibly wanting to be a doctor and sometimes I'm sure there's people who in childhood already find at some point what they want to do or already are very more career oriented in terms of finding something that really speaks to them early on and gravitating towards that or working towards that after having some early childhood experience that informs their career and life direction. Direction in some way.
- [115:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. It would be interesting to see the sign there and to see if for some reason there, there's a reason that they choose to. It's something that they're very passionate about. I would definitely encourage it, but always allow them to know that everything is subject to change. Nothing, you know, you don't want to set for sure. And it's not to derail them and say that you can't. But so much is developing still even at the later teenage years that we have to let them know that it's okay to change your mind and you don't want to have them then feel bad if they do hit college. And usually what happens is you go into college and you change your mind and you're like, actually you know what, I don't want to do this. And you want to be there to bring that encouragement of hey, it's okay, like let's, let's think about this, find something else. We have time and stuff like that. But yeah, encourage it if you can, but always just remind them there's always flexibility there available.
- [116:15]
B
Yeah. And that actually brings up a ninth house, one we missed. But it's worth mentioning which is just some people may be more college oriented and building up to that from relatively early on and do go on to higher education, which is the ninth house, versus there are others who either don't or who maybe that gets interrupted for some reason and isn't available or there's challenges there for some reason.
- [116:42]
A
Yeah, I've seen it where some people are afraid to go, they delay it for some reason or they feel like it's just too much work and they don't want to do it yet. Some people have children and then wait until the children go to school to then go back to school and pursue that or finish some type of degree.
- [116:59]
B
I know somebody who had Saturn in the ninth house in the night chart and their parent actively discouraged them from going to college so that they didn't end up going. But then they later regretted that and ended up going back to college later in adulthood.
- [117:18]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And too it could depend on whether the parent puts a high emphasis on that too because some parents do like you have to Go to college, you have to get a high degree. And some are just kind of like, do what you want, we're going to love you anyway. And they're a little bit more flexible. Flexible. There's not that big burden there. Or some of them might see it as a burden where you have to do it or you're going to let your family down. You're going to let someone down. Because again, we're still dealing with parental figure there too. With the 10.
- [117:49]
B
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. 10th house, career. Career orientation. Maybe finding that at some point early on. I think that's probably good, right?
- [118:00]
A
Yeah.
- [118:01]
B
All right, so we go now to the 11th house, which is traditionally the place of friends and groups and alliances and. Yeah, this is where we find our friends, our close friendships and social networks and things like that, right?
- [118:14]
A
Yeah. Your group of friends, whether you fit into the group, it's usually where children find that they. Whether they're cliquey or not. Because you have some kids that prefer one on one, just one friend is fine. And then you have some children that really, they want to be in the friend group, especially as they get, you know, older. Elementary, middle schools, where you see a lot of the clickiness begin to form and these. It's not a big group, but it's more than three usually is what you'll see. You can also see here much younger, where you'll see these classes that parents can sign their kids up for. Where it's art class, where you're in a group, you have to work in the group. The sports is also something you have to do as a group. That usually comes with early childhood. So it just depends on where you are. Is it early childhood 0 to 7, or are we looking at 7 to 14? Where it's more of a conscious choice and what groups they choose to be a part of. In earlier cases, it could also be that the parent is involved in some type of group dynamic that becomes big for the child. Like if they're an advocate for something, they take their child to those events all the time. So they grow up always seeing this advocacy and this group thing and community and stuff like that.
- [119:33]
B
That makes sense. Yeah. So the 11th House, just some people with major 11th House placements, like the ruler of the ascendant or stellium. They're just very social people and having friends or having a large friend group is very important to them. And sometimes if there's beneficial there, that's something that goes relatively smoothly. Whereas other times, if there's challenging placements there There may be something about socializations or friends or social dynamics that's more challenging to the person. Maybe they have more reticence or fears surrounding social groups and friend dynamics for some reason.
- [120:11]
A
Yeah, my ruler of my 11th is Saturn. So for me I just stayed away. I just decided to stay away from groups because I found them that it was, was, it was too shallow for me and they didn't really like me. So then I learned from very early on that it's just not safe. And now as an adult I'm deciding to try to venture out into that 11th group thing, more community thing. But with Saturn it's like, okay, it took a long time to get here. I've decided to stay very seclusive for a long time and now I have the autonomy to choose for myself if I want to and win versus before where I don't really have a case or a choice. So I just, I guess sort of chose to be more of a loner.
- [120:58]
B
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And you know, I'm sure at some point also sometimes it shows up in terms of sometimes people have really good friend dynamics or fall in with good friends who are a positive influence versus sometimes I know parents run into an issue where a child might get with a friend who's like a bad influence and that would probably show up in the 11th house as well as a placement or as a transit or something like that.
- [121:26]
A
Yeah, I would be aware of transits, especially more longer transits like Saturn right now. If your child has Aries there in the 11th, then it's something that you would want to keep in mind, not as something that you want to mention to them, but I would just say, hey, be on the lookout for, you know, possibilities of maybe a breaking up of a friendship or something if they did have one, and setting aside something to help them beforehand just in case. So for example, my son goes to play therapy and he has that transit right now. So I let the therapist know can, because she always asks me what do we, what can we talk about during the session? What do you need me to work on? Anything to do with friend groups. We're not mentioning it to him, I'm mentioning it to the therapist. And it's one mention only, just saying, hey, just work on friendships and understanding that some friends will go away and some new friends come and being okay with that transition of making friends, losing friends and things like that. So I don't need to mention anything. There's no anxiety there. I'm not predicting anything, but I am aware of it and just being aware, I'm able to tell the therapist and she brings that into the session with him.
- [122:35]
B
Totally. I love that. Yeah. And there's that id. There's also. There would be the experience, I know sometimes starting a new school or going to a new grade and maybe having a positive 11th House transit and making your lifelong best friend starting in childhood or something like that, if you're having a good transit. Or alternatively, everybody has that experience some point. Let's say there's a Mars Transit through the 11th or a retrograde there and you have a falling out with a friend and a friendship goes through a rocky period or ends for some reason. And having an early experience of that.
- [123:13]
A
Yeah. And how to navigate that too. Cause then did you have assistance? Did somebody help you or did you just kind of navigate that on your own? I think that's the benefit of having the astrology knowledge and having this an astrologer be able to tell you. Because again, we're not saying it in a it's going to happen, but more of a, hey, this is something you might want to pay attention to. And here's some things that could help if that were to occur. Of course.
- [123:41]
B
Yeah, definitely. All right, that brings us to the last house, which is the 12th house, which traditionally the 11th house is the place of friends and the 12th house is the place of enemies. And in a modern context, I often frame this as like enemies, but also sometimes people you don't get along with as the counterpart to the 11th House House as the place where you do get along with people. And some of the early experiences that can sometimes happen if there's a notable experience with having an enemy or having, let's say, a bully situation, sometimes children can run into a situation with that where they're being bullied by somebody for some reason in the neighborhood or at school. And what the early experience of that is and ways of managing or navigating that.
- [124:29]
A
Yeah, it's such a heavy. One of the heavy parts of the 12th house is when you do deal with that. And not all children will deal with that. I mean, I know I've dealt with it a lot. And it's also too about the imagination and the inner world there when you're doing with the 12th house. So what I would try to do is to mitigate that as much as I can by bringing in some type. Because usually what they tend to do is withdraw then when you're with the 12th house. So there's this withdrawal and, you know, maybe might feeling different and stuff like that, where they might choose to be more reclusive in. In the home and, you know, shutting the door, wanting to be alone in the room and things like that, especially if more of those heavier things are going on. So then we look at them, we're like, okay, how can we bring some type of assistance to what's going on? And that's where you choose in either outside therapeutic services. The 12th house is also similar to 5th, where I link into creativity there because it is the imagination. So how can we use maybe even art as a way to channel those feelings? Because with the 12th, especially if you have like the moon there, there may be this tendency to want to repress emotions, feelings, and not wanting to talk about them. And how can we. How can we work around that? I wanted to show. I know people that are just listening won't be able to watch, but I brought these here for this house specifically, and I use it personally. Where I have these emotion little plushies. There's many of them. And my son has moon in the 12th in Taurus, and it receives a tribe from Jupiter. So there is help to where he doesn't want to talk about feelings, and he decides to go in his room and shut out. But what I do is I wait for him to relax and then I bring these and I say, okay, fine, we don't have to talk, but this is a way to get through the door. Which feeling are you feeling right now? You know, look, he usually will look at them and just pick one. He'll stay quiet for a bit. And then we start talking about it, because what we don't want it, we do. What we don't want to happen is then that becomes the default where it's okay to recluse and not talk about things because you might see repression then. And that overall doesn't help as they grow into adults where they shut down and not talk about their feelings. So how can we help? That's another manifestation how astrology can help and finding ways on how to work with this 12th House energy.
- [127:05]
B
I love that. That's perfect. Yeah. Because you do sometimes, with heavy 12th house placements, see people that really prefer seclusion or solitude more and where that's much more important to them. And then also the 12th house really comes out as a place sometimes that has to do with mental health and whether a person has a good supportive environment for that, for talking about mental health and addressing some of those things, or whether they don't, or whether it's not as supportive for whatever reason.
- [127:37]
A
Yeah. And Even them being, being willing to talk about, let's say for your example, if there is bullying, sometimes they don't even mention it to the parents and, and I never mentioned it just because of fear. So we want to make sure that we're always keeping in, in contact of what's going on at school. Always noticing any changes in your child and just trying to. If you're dealing with 12th house placements then you have to try to find a way that they feel comfortable because if not you're just going to get more of a retreat, more of a shutdown. So that's why I use these plushies because it's a way for me to heal, respond and I can get that communication started. But it's non verbal, it's more just a creative way. So you got to get very creative with the 12th house. I feel like that's a good outlet.
- [128:25]
B
Absolutely perfect. I love it. All right, well we have done it. We made it through all 12 houses and I know we're getting towards the end of our time. You've got to ignore get out of here pretty soon. So I wanted to bring this around. Thank you so much for doing this with me today and thanks for going through all the 12 houses. I loved talking about and thinking about this from this perspective and yeah, just talking about your work. You have a YouTube channel where you talk about different themes like this a lot, right?
- [128:56]
A
Yes. Where I talk about the basics like planets in a house. What are the possible manifestations? None of them are to say for sure that is what is going to occur. But it's nice to kind of get that because for right now, usually what you see is books. So you'll see books on child astrology but you don't see a lot of videos. And I'm more of a visual learner. I learned by watching and listening. So that is content that I want to provide for people to be able to listen to, to watch and kind of like an introduction to the world. Always it's best to get an astrological consultation for child's charts. But it's a good beginner step and an intro into that world.
- [129:38]
B
Absolutely. I love that. So what's your website URL again?
- [129:43]
A
Www.matriarchastrology.com and YouTube is the same. Matriarchastrology.com I post sometimes on Instagram, but I'm more on YouTube and also just you can reach me through the website as well.
- [130:00]
B
Okay, awesome. Brilliant. And yeah, you've got your YouTube channel and then you offer consultations through your website.
- [130:05]
A
Yes, for child charts and then also adults as well.
- [130:09]
B
Brilliant. Awesome. Well, I think everyone should check out your channel. I loved your videos and that was one of the things that made me want to do this episode with you and you did not disappoint. So thanks so much for joining me today and collaborating with this on me.
- [130:22]
A
Yes, thank you so much for Chris for even having this space available, because again, it's not a big, broad topic and I think it's very important that it does at least reach people that are looking for it. And I'm so happy that I even got to be in the space with you.
- [130:36]
B
Totally. Thank you. All right, well, thanks for joining me today. Thanks everyone for watching or listening to this episode of the Astrology Podcast and we'll see you again next time. If you're a fan of the podcast and you want to get access to bonus content, then become a patron through my page on Patreon, where you can get early access to new episodes, attend live recordings and webinars, access the monthly Electional Astrology Podcast, the Secret Astrology Podcast that's only available to patrons, or you can even get your name listed in the credits. Find out more@patreon.com AstroNYPodcast Special thanks to the patrons on our Producers tier, including patrons Christy Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandi Rae, Angelic Nambo Issa Sabah, Jeannie Marie Kaplan, Melissa Delano, Sunny Bazbaz, Kwatsi Alibarahu, Annie Newman, Ginger Sadlier, Berlin west, and Nikki Crawford. If you're looking for good dates to do things this year, then be sure to check out our 2026 electional astrology report, which is a guide to the most fortunate dates in 2026. You can get it at theastrologypodcast.com if you're really looking to take your studies of astrology to the next level, then consider signing up for my Hellenistic Astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology where I take people from basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts. There's over 100 hours of video lectures plus live webinars and Q and A sessions each month, and at the end of the course you get a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me. Find out more information@theastrologyschool.com if you're looking to get an astrological consultation, then check out the new Consultations page on the podcast website where I have a list of astrologers I recommend for birth chart readings and other types of consultations. You can find that@theastrologypodcast.com consultations. The astrology software we use and recommend here on the podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows and you can get a 15% discount on it by using the promo code 8AP15 at the website alabe.com for Mac users, we recommend the program called astro gold for macOS, and you can use the promo code astropodcast15 to get a 15% discount at their website, which is astrogold IO. And shout out to our sponsors for this episode, including the Northwest Astrology Conference, which is happening in Seattle and being livestreamed online May 21st through the 25th, 2026. Find out more information@norwac.net, as well as the United Astrology Conference, which is happening in Chicago this year September 3rd through the 9th, 2026. Find out more information about that at uacastrology.com.
- [133:29]
A
Sa.