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- [00:00]
A
Chris.
- [00:00]
B
Hey, my name is Chris Brennan and you're listening to the Astrology Podcast. Joining me today is astrologer Nick Dagan Best, and we're gonna be talking about a technique known as recurrence transits and doing an introductory workshop on this topic and on this otherwise not very well known technique in the English speaking world. So, hey Nick, welcome. Thanks for joining me.
- [00:22]
A
Hey Chris, thanks for having me back. It's great to be here.
- [00:25]
B
Yeah. So this is a big technique. This is a technique that you have actually been talking about for a while, for years now that I've just been finally starting to come around to over the past few years. And I finally feel confident about the technique and ready to talk about and give a workshop on it. And I'm excited to do this with you. So let's start by defining the technique really quickly at the beginning, just to give people an idea of what we're going to be talking about. A recurrence transitthe premise of a recurrence transit is that when there's an aspect between two planets in a person's birth chart, that at some point in the future, when that aspect repeats in the sky between those same two planets, that an important event or moment will happen in that person's life. For example, let's say if a person was born with a Venus Jupiter conjunction in their birth chart, then at some point in the future, when Venus and Jupiter align in a conjunction in the sky, that will coincide with an important moment or an important turning point in that person's life. And this can apply to other aspects as well. So that there's this repeat or replication or recurrence of a natal planetary alignment in a mundane aspect in the sky. Is that a good definition of it?
- [01:47]
A
Yeah, that's pretty good, yeah. If you have a given aspect in your chart and on any given day, that same aspect is repeated by the same two planets, even if those two bodies aren't making any kind of zodiacal or aspectual type of contact to the natal chart, just that repetition of having the same two bodies in the same configuration in your birth chart. And on a given day, that is still a transit of sorts. It's not something, it's true, it's not something you read about much in astrology texts or what have you, not in the English world. But they are transits just as much as the ones that we do learn and study and use, the ones that do. If Saturn makes a trine to your sun and that kind of thing, we understand transits at that level, these are no less or more important. But it's really a matter of the geometry between these two bodies being repeated, being echoed or mirrored on a given day.
- [02:48]
B
Right. So it's like there's a transiting aspect that mirrors an aspect that was found in a given nativity. Or the way I was formulating it last night was if a person is born under a specific celestial alignment, then important moments in their life will happen when the same celestial alignment reoccurs in the sky. And that kind of covers a very broad category of this technique and some of the subsets of it I think that we've been working on over the past few years. And one of the things you said that's important about this is this is really different than how we're used to thinking about transits and how transits are usually defined. Because strictly speaking, usually a transit is when a planet in the sky is makes an aspect to a planet or a point in the birth chart. But in this instance, we're talking about an alignment in the birth chart being repeated in the sky. So that's quite different than how contemporary transit theory is usually conceptualized, at least in the English speaking world.
- [03:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's something that I've never come across in any text whatsoever. Well, until earlier today when you shared a German one with me that I didn't know existed until you shared it. But yeah, it's not something anyone reads about. The only reason I learned about them was my teacher, Michael Lewton, when I was taking a class with him in 1999, 2000.
- [04:15]
B
So one of the things that you said because you lectured on this back in UAC in 2012, and you said that these transits can be extremely powerful even if they don't make a zodiacal contact to any point in a given chart. And I think that's so crucial and that's one of the disconnects and it's one of the issues I had for years because I've been aware of this technique through you since the mid to late 2000s. But my understanding and grounding in transit theory, it's always been very strong that it's like for a transit to be relevant for something in the sky in the present to be relevant to an individual, it has to be aspecting something in their birth chart. And if it's not, then it's not going to be personally relevant. But in this technique, it actually shows a way in which the alignment of the planets in the sky currently, if it's repeating an aspect in the birth chart, can actually still be relevant in the life of the individual, even if there's no natal contact.
- [05:17]
A
Yep.
- [05:19]
B
Yeah. So that's different. And one of the points then is that it creates a model where there's a resonance between the alignment in the birth chart and the alignment of the planets at some point in the future when that same alignment repeats in the sky. And I've been thinking about this, and one of the analogies I came up with recently was that it's kind of like music that's playing at the moment of a person's birth, and then it's what happens when that same music starts playing again at some critical point in their life in the future when the same two planets align. And I kind of thought about how, like, you know, in the HBO series Game of Thrones, they actually had a professional composer design a song that was specific to each character. And each character had, like, a rousing, emotional song that over the course of the series, it would start playing when that character was doing, like, really important moments when, like, Daenerys would do something or when Jon Snow would do something. And this technique in applying to charts, it reminds me of that because it's almost like a person is born with a certain alignment. Then that alignment happens at some point later in the life in the future, and then that theme song starts playing again, and all of a sudden you start doing important stuff around that time. That's one of the ways that I've conceptualized it. How do you conceptualize it?
- [06:52]
A
Yeah, no, that's a good one. I never watched Game of Thrones, but I remember Darth Vader had his own theme whenever he comes on screen in any of the Star wars movies. There's a theme, a very specific theme music that comes on that lets you know he's. You're about to have a Darth Vader scene, even if you don't see him yet. Yeah, no, that's a good way of putting it. I think they're almost like harmonies to the melody. The. Like, the. The natal chart is the. The original melody. And then these recurrence transits are like harmonies. The same rhythm pattern, the same, you know, but. But maybe in a different key, that is, maybe in a different sign. And. And, you know, so that also accounts. That analogy accounts for what is the same, but also what is different about a recurrence transit relative to the natal aspect.
- [07:44]
B
Right. Because you bring up an important point that, for example, we're talking about conjunctions or recurrence of conjunctions. It doesn't have to be in the Same sign. It may be more powerful if it happens to be in the same sign. But a recurrence transit is just a realignment or a recurrence of the aspect between the two planets, wherever they are in the zodiac or wherever they are in the sky.
- [08:07]
A
Yeah, yeah. And they're just. I mean, again, going to a musical analogy. There is a theme in the life, not necessarily a musical theme, but a combination of two planets, an aspect in a person's chart. It means something. You know, it's. It's. It represents certain experiences or certain innate traits or what have you. And whenever a recurrence transit happens, it's sort of. It. It's a recurrence of that theme. So that's another way that musical analogy works, because it is sort of like, oh, here's that melody again. The context might be different, it might be in a different key or what have you, but it's that melody. Unmistakable. It's that person's moment.
- [08:52]
B
Yeah. Cause like right now, for example, there's a Mercury Mars conjunction in the sky, and Mercury has just stationed retrograde. We're recording this on what, Sunday, November 9, 2025. And we started, what, 10 minutes ago, so at like 11:43am with Capricorn Rising. And I've noticed in the news in the past few weeks that people that were born with Mercury Mars conjunctions in their birth chart are suddenly becoming prominent and popping up in the news. For example, one of them who's born with Mercury Mars conjunction was Charlie Kirk. And that aspect recurred after his assassination when he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom the following month, basically very close to the Mercury Mars conjunction in Scorpio, which repeated his natal Mercury Mars conjunction in Scorpio. Or alternatively, just a few days ago, Zorhan Mandani became the mayor of New York. He won the New York mayor race, and he was born with a Mercury Mars conjunction in Scorpio as well, in a completely different year from Charlie Kirk. And yet both of them become prominent around this time when Mercury and Mars are forming this close conjunction in the sky that's getting elongated because Mercury is slowing down and stationing retrograde at the same time. So that's kind of an example of what we mean when we say that important moments can start happening when people have that in their birth chart.
- [10:28]
A
Right, right. Yeah. Perfect examples. Perfect recent examples.
- [10:33]
B
Yeah. Okay, so that's the initial introduction. So I do want to talk about the history, and we have a little piece on that. So sorry for delaying that until later, but I just Wanted to make sure we did.
- [10:44]
A
My apologies.
- [10:46]
B
That's okay. My apology for cutting you off. So in the English speaking world at the present time, this is not a very common or well known technique. And that's kind of why our pur here today is to introduce the technique and give a workshop on it. So I learned the technique first from you, as I said, when we became friends around 2004, 2005, in the mid 2000s. And you learned it from an astrologer named Michael Lewton in the late 1990s, and you've given lectures on the topic. And our friend Patrick Watson learned the technique from you and he's also talked about it a lot over the years, although you're really the primary proponent of it that I know, at least that I'm familiar with in the English speaking world. And for some reason it's not well known as a technique. And so we were trying to research this week and trying to figure out where did Michael Lewton learn it from and sort of research those threads. But maybe first let's hear what's the story of how you learned the technique from Michael.
- [11:50]
A
Yeah, I took a course with Michael Lewton in astrology class from January of 99 until the spring or early summer of 2000 when I left New York for good. And it was a wonderful class. I learned so much, not just astrology, but about how to be an astrologer in so many different ways. But I would often sort of pester him for astrological nuggets. I was a very hungry student. I wanted to know more. And Michael started talking about recurrence transits. And then I would go off and research things and then come back to the next class and rattle off whatever research I'd done over the course of the week and that conversation would keep going. And indeed, I mean, he really was the only person, the only astrologer. I studied with many different astrologers during that period. He was the only one I met who knew anything about this technique. And I never read about it in any books in discussing it with astrologers. The only time I ever discussed it with astrologers who seemed to know what I was talking about before I had to explain it to them were some French speaking astrologers I knew in Montreal, which is interesting because Michael Lewton spoke French and lived in Paris for a stretch of his life. So you. And I surmised because. Because Michael spoke French and had lived in Paris and because the only astrologers I ever met who knew about this technique were also French. Speaking, we're like, oh, well, maybe this is something that's more common in the French speaking astrological world or in the European astrological world or what have you. And it's just something that literally hasn't been translated, I suppose.
- [13:37]
B
Right. Yeah. I assumed Michael got it for some reason. I was under the assumption he got it from Uranian astrologers or cosmobiology or something like that, because it sounds almost vaguely like something a Uranian or cosmobiology astrologer would use. But a few nights ago I asked my Uranian astrology friend Scott Silverman about it, and he happened to be talking to Gary Christian over Zoom at the time that I emailed him, who's one of the main Uranian astrologers in the US And Gary said, no, it's not a Uranian or cosmobiology technique, as far as I'm aware. So one of the things I did remember though is that on astro.com for many years they've had something in their personal daily horoscope where it lets you know when the natal moon aspect that the moon has to the sun in your birth chart recurs in your personal daily transits each month, which happens once a month, the natal moon phase is recurred. So I emailed Alois Trendl, the founder of Astrodienst, to ask him about this and he said that he had incorporated that from an earlier Czech medical astrologer who did it in the context of some discussions about fertility and astrological fertility. But he also said that he had heard of this technique since the late 1970s or early 80s in the German speaking world. And Alois specifically pointed out a passage in the 1929 book Kis der Astrology from an astrologer named Herbert Freiherr von Klocker, volume three of his work, page 123. And he sent me the passage, and it does seem to be talking about this technique of what we're calling recurrence transits. He called it a zodiacal or what is a constellation recurrence or something like that. I wrote it down elsewhere. But it does seem like you said constellations, recurrence, constellation. That's what it was.
- [15:41]
A
That's what you told me you read. Yeah, yeah.
- [15:44]
B
Okay. So that means the technique did exist, at least in the German speaking astrological community from 1929 forward in that his book was somewhat influential, so it would have been known for others. So it may just be one of those things that exists in German or in European astrological circles that didn't really make it into English, at least as far as the text that you and I have studied for the most part, when I was coming up, at least in terms of transits, you and I interacted with another astrologer named Robert Blaschke years ago on the MySpace astrology forums, and he said that he had a somewhat similar technique, similar to his work on holographic transits. But I just called Jenn Zaart, who recently republished his works today, and the way that she explained it to me, it didn't really sound exactly like recurrence transits because there was a lot of other stuff going on involving the sun and the synodics, like with the sun and other things like that, like Sapian symbols. So I'm not sure that it was really recurrence transits, as we're focusing on it here, that he was necessarily a proponent of. So the technique is kind of similar. It does remind me of a technique in Ptolemy. It's somewhat reminiscent of it that he calls Proper Face from the second century. And the premise of this is he talks about it in the context of a discussion about dignity of the planets. And he says that a planet is stronger or sort of like dignified when it repeats the aspect with one of the luminaries that that planet had in the Thema mundi. So, for example, like a sextile with the sun for Venus, or with Venus and the Moon, or a square between Mars and the sun, or a square between Mars and the Moon from the same side. It has to be the same phase relationship as well. So that's not an exact parallel because we're applying this more to transits rather than a natal aspect to the mythical birth chart for the creation of the world. But there is an almost similarity there going back to that second century text in some ways.
- [17:57]
A
Yeah, I would say that's adjacent anyway, as a concept to what we're talking about. My feeling about them, from what I understand of Robert Blaschke's work, yeah, it's sort of like a recurrence transit with a lot of other sort of ideas mixed in. My sort of view of recurrence transits is more in line with the kind of Neo Babylonian thing I do, you know, very simple, just like two planets coming together, same two bodies in the same configuration, and they can be anywhere. It's very. It's a visual, like a lot of astrology used to be, anyway. It's a visual key to a pattern that's found in the natal chart. And I really do think of them in the same way. That with the synodic cycles that you and I have talked about in other episodes, these are very sort of basic astronomical manifestations of astrology, much simpler than anything in horoscopic astrology. And even though, you know, I learned about recurrence transits from Michael, just like I learned about synodic cycles really first from Robert Schmidt, I'd say studying Hellenistic astrology, I think even if they hadn't told me about them, because of the kind of work that I've done over 20, 30 years where I've just been making these chart files and looking at a lot of transits of different people's lives and really studying them closely, I can easily imagine anyone sort of rediscovering them for themselves. If you just go out and study astrology for a good long time, especially transits and lifetimes and the kind of thing I've been doing. Yeah, Someone wouldn't necessarily have to tell you. I think if you worked on it long enough, you would just discover it yourself. And my suspicion is that these are actually quite old and well worn astrological techniques that just don't happen to have made it into the 20th century English astrological lexicon, which we can think of as being this really big thing, but it's yet another branch on this very big tree.
- [20:11]
B
Yeah, totally, yeah. I mean, to the extent that the technique works, it's possible that it's been rediscovered independently at different times in the long history of astrology, but. But it's hard to say. And ultimately more historical research is needed to trace the origins and who's been using it at different times, because we're just barely scratching the surface here. But I hope that gives people some leads. And if people know more information about who's used it in the past, contemporary or further back, let us know in the YouTube comments and that'll help contribute to that research. Hey, so quick addendum as I'm editing this episode in post, but I was Rerereading through the 2nd century Astrologer Vettius Valens the other day and his work, the anthology, because I had this suspicion, like I had seen this technique before somewhere and it was driving me crazy trying to find it. And I stumbled across this passage in Valens in book five, chapter seven, where I'm pretty sure he actually refers to the concept of recurrence transits in this passage using different language. So here's the passage. So Valens says forecasts will be quite definite with respect to actions and critical points when the same stars come into the same configuration that they had at The Nativity, as the divine Critodemus reminds us. We append his system to the following chart and the accompanying directions. And then he puts this table, it's like this simple table that you're supposed to use for the technique. And then he says the preceding table is the table of the stars mutual return to the same intervals and configurations. Then he gives this chart example to demonstrate the technique, and it's actually using the birth chart of the Emperor Nero and a specific event in his life. So after the chart example, he summarizes this entire section by saying, the Chronocrators or the Time Lords found by using these intervals will be incontrovertibly active and operative when their rulers at the Nativity have the same intervals in their transits at the time in question as they had at the Nativity. So when the rulers of the Nativity have the same intervals in their transits at the time in question as they had at the Nativity. And this is from Mark Riley's translation of Vettius Valens, book 5, chapter 7, sentences 1736. So this passage, there's a few things. It's within the context of a discussion about Valens advanced method of profections and a particularly complicated approach to profections that he got from the work of Critodemus. And I think it's especially interesting that he cites Critidimus at this point because it means that he's drawing on an earlier astrologer for this concept and technique. So it's not something that Valens invented himself. So Critidimus probably lived around the 1st century BCE, and Valens may have been drawing on a commentary that was written on Critidimus work sometime around the late first century ce. Or at least that's the speculation of some of the editors of Valens's text, like David Pingree, who believed that Critodemus wrote earlier and then that Valens was drawing on some commentary on Critidimus that was written around the late first century. And that's why it was able to use Nero's chart and to use a specific date in Nero's chart. Anyway, to make a long story short, what I get from this is it means that the concept of recurrence transits did exist in the earlier Hellenistic tradition, and at least we have this passing reference to it, and there may be other references to the concept at other points in the tradition as well. So it's worth researching a lot further. Nick and I had said that we only skimmed the surface and we were just giving people some ideas of where we got the technique from or what we were aware of up to that point. But I suspect that the technique may have shown up at different points in history, like we said, either through tradition or simply through being rediscovered at different points independently. So I hope this passage, though, at least gives you some idea that there's a little bit more traditional grounding in this technique in ancient astrology than it might be seem like at first. So briefly, because we mentioned Michael, I just want to mention briefly a little bit about him, because Michael Lewton was a fixture of the New York City astrological community for many years. And he was perhaps most famous because he was the in house astrologer for Vanity Fair magazine for about 25 years, which made him very prominent with some of the articles he wrote, including his famous article about Pluto in Capricorn that he wrote ahead of the ingress of that transit and then ended up being very accurate in terms of some of its predictions. And he would also, through Vanity Fair, end up at the Oscar parties and stuff like that and sort of hobnobbing with famous celebrities and stuff for many years. And he was also known to put on these elaborate plays at astrological conferences and did a number of those over the years. But. But I wanted to mention him because as I was preparing this or was rushing to finish this last night and try to trace the origins of the technique, I realized he actually passed away a year ago tomorrow, so pretty much to the day on November 10, 2024. And he was born at the time of a Mercury Mars conjunction. And there's a Mercury Mars conjunction that's happening in the sky right now. So there's actually a recurrence transit that relates to him as we're talking about recurrence transits and we just happened to accidentally be doing this on the anniversary of his passing away. So I wanted to give him a shout out and give him thanks for that and respect for that, especially because I'd always wanted to interview him over the years. But then we tried to set up towards the end of his life, but it didn't end up happening. And then he got ill and he passed away. So I'm glad that we could accidentally do something like remember him a year after his passing.
- [26:52]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's a pity too, because he was such a fascinating guy, always with a million stories to tell and very funny as anyone who ever encountered him in person, live on stage. He was as talented as any stand up comedian. But I can tell you, just being in his weekly astrology class in his little office library. He was top shelf funny all the time and interesting. And despite being this pop astrologer who wrote the sun sign column for Vanity Fair, a really knowledgeable, sophisticated astrologer. And I used to read his Vanity Fair column in the magazine store a block away from his office before going to class. And I'd always wonder like, is he spying on me? Is he talking to my friends about me? How does he know what's going on? It was really spooky. And then I'd go sit in that classroom and, you know, wonder these things. And of course he didn't know anything. He was just being an astrologer. But he was that good at it. And yeah, you know, all these stories, the Oscar parties, because Vanity Fair hosted the biggest Oscar party. And so as a, a staff member, he got a free ticket. He was there every year for years. So, yeah, very, you know, that the astrologer's life we all would, would love to have. And you know, it is a pity you didn't have him on the show because he would have been a real fantastic guest. But yeah, remembering him a year after his passing is. This is very fitting. I want to thank him too. You know, everything he gave me as a teacher is really stayed with me.
- [28:34]
B
Yeah, definitely. And there's a great interview I did find this morning I was watching over breakfast where The Kepler College YouTube channel did an interview with him a few years ago, I think in 2022. He was interviewed by Caleb Wilkinson. And it's a great interview. So I'd recommend people search for that and check it out if they'd like more about his life story and his sense of humor and some of his techniques and views on astrology. It's the interview I would have wanted to do if we had worked it out, but it didn't end up happening. Okay, I think that's good. So I want to move on now to really briefly, before we jump into the examples, my relationship with the technique, which is like I said, I've known about the technique for years through you and Patrick, but I never did that much with it. And I was honestly kind of skeptical because it's so foreign from the way we usually work with transits and the way that it's like an axiom that a transit to be important, it has to happen. Aspect A natal planet in the chartwas so ingrained in me from my early transit studies of Rob Hand's work, planets in transit, and following my personal daily horoscope on astro.com every day for many, many years. So it sounds weird, I think, and for many listeners today, it may sound weird compared to how contemporary transit doctrine works. But over the past year or two, I've really started to come around, and especially as you and I have been doing some of our research, our historical research about different mundane planetary recurrences, like first with our series on eclipses in history that coincided with major turning points that we did a couple of years ago at the end of 2023. That was a major game changer at first. I think that was at the end of 23. Right.
- [30:28]
A
I believe so. Ironically, this is a timeline I haven't absorbed as well as others, but I believe that sounds about right.
- [30:37]
B
That's like a Greek mythological figure, like the astrologer who can memorize everyone's timeline but his own.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah, yeah. I am a walking Greek tragedy. Absolutely.
- [30:48]
B
Absolutely. Me too. All right. So we started doing that work with eclipses, and that kind of came up because one of the principles that I got out of that research that became very clear was that if a person was born on an eclipse, then future eclipses in their timeline are going to coincide with some of the most important events in their life. And that it really stands out that eclipses stand out as even more important for people that were born on eclipses. And that's basically the same principle of a recurrence transit. Because if a person was born on a solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse, then any future time that there's a solar lunar eclipse, that's gonna be a recurrence transit for that person. And the principle is that it's more important for them personally because they were born on one. So it's like we did that work two years ago. And then you and I also did the Saturn Neptune episode earlier this year on Saturn Neptune conjunctions. And that also necessarily led to some similar things of seeing, especially in the long timeline of countries, that there were certain countries that were probably born under Saturn Neptune conjunction or had an important foundation date. And then a recurrence of Saturn Neptune conjunctions would mark really important turning points. For example, in the history of Russia, that was a really major one, but also other countries. And then finally also some of our work on the Venus retrograde cycle over the course of the past three years, but especially this most recent one earlier this year, the Venus retrograde in Aries, where we could see that especially people that were born under Venus retrograde in Aries, when that would repeat again in the future, some very defining turning points in their life would tend to occur. And that's also sort of like similar thinking to the recurrence transit idea, I think. Right?
- [32:45]
A
Yeah, yeah. They're all adjacent to each other in the sense that it really is about the visual astrology on its own. Like as if you're looking at in the sky, you're not necessarily at the point where you're projecting it onto the zodiac or anything like that. It's just the sort of the raw combination of two planets. I mean, when you think about it, like synodic cycles and recurrence transits are, you know, they're astrological phenomena that could be used in any style of astrology. You know, it's what, like I've given talks on synodic cycles to Vedic astrologers in India because, hey, you know, it moves, it travels, you don't, you know, it transcends the system. And there's something about it in its own right that has an astrological message even before you get to the horoscopic level. And these might have been the kind of things that astrologers were doing as horoscopic astrology was being developed. However that was done, these are the kinds of things that they would have had to have known. They probably knew recurrence transits and synodic cycles before they were really drawing up the whole horoscopic system. It stands to reason, this is all inference, but it seems very, very likely to me that it would come about in that kind of way.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah, because that was the other research that led me this way slowly over the past couple years as well, was on the Babylonian long term planetary periods called goal year periods. And that's an episode I'm still working on with Patrick on putting together an episode on those. But you're right that this technique can be zodiac independent. A piece of it is really independent of what zodiac you use, whether it's like tropical or sidereal, which is one of the interesting things about it.
- [34:39]
A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
So the other clencher, though, that made me stand up and start paying more attention finally was last year in the run up to the 2024 US presidential election, when we were having some private discussions as astrologers about the outcome of the presidential election and the different arguments in favor for the two candidates for Trump and Harris and who would win based on their birth chart. You had long predicted that you thought Trump would win for different reasons, especially the prominence of Uranus in Gemini in his chart conjunct, his sun, the ruler of his ascendant, and other things like that. And then Uranus moving back into Gemini as it did in July of this year for the next seven or eight years. But one of your other arguments that you made strongly last year, that I remember standing out because I was kind of nervous about whether that was really a strong enough argument, was you said that Trump has a natal Venus Saturn conjunction in cancer in the 12th House. And you notice that on Inauguration Day on January 20, 2025, that Venus and Saturn would again be conjoined in the sky in Pisces. And to you, with your long background with occurrence transits, that was actually a strong argument that something very important would be happening for him on that day, that he'd be having an important turning point moment, which by extension meant if he was having that, then it may mean that he won the presidential election. And I remember being like thinking or almost putting too much emphasis on that aspect, but then, you know, sure enough, like that that happened. And, you know, that's where we're at now.
- [36:24]
A
I think how I put it was I said it looks like his day. Like, I literally, I put it like that. And when you, I mean, you know, no matter what you, you know, where you stand on the person, it certainly was his day. You know what I mean? Like, like there is a sort of a bear accuracy to that statement. It wasn't merely that he had won, but, you know, it was his day. And that was the thing, the Venus Saturn conjunction in Pisces. The thing about presidential inaugurations, they happen every four years. So Venus is only ever in one of two places on presidential inaugurations, and that one in Pisces, that was conjunct Saturn. If you go back to 2008, when Obama's first inauguration, Venus was at that same position in Pisces, conjunct Uranus. And there was also just that symbolic contrast between Obama in 08 being inaugurated under Venus Uranus and Trump in 25 being inaugurated under Venus Saturn. But yeah, it was very much like the, you know, the inauguration is the final word. You know, winning an election obviously is the deciding thing, but the inauguration is the final word that, you know, it's done. He is now president as of this moment. And so seeing that recurrence there, there were other supporting things like Uranus in Gemini, but that really was the thing that just sort of pointed. Not only did I think he's going to be president, but look at that inauguration. It's his day. It's not just that he's being inaugurated like he's won something a little more than an election. And I think any armchair psychologist would agree with that.
- [38:09]
B
Sure, yeah. And it's like there are other techniques as well. One of the things was going back years, one of the things that tripped me up way back in 2016 is we could always see that in Zodiacal Releasing, which is one of my primary predictive techniques, that he would be going into a level one peak period shortly after Inauguration Day in 2025. And so that was one of the things back in 2016 that didn't make sense to us because we were like, how is he going to win 2016 if his peak period is still in the future? So we thought his greatest days were still yet to come. And then there was no scenario back in 2016 where we could have imagined that he wins 2016, he loses 2020, and then he makes this comeback in 2024. So it's like there were other. But ultimately, the Zodiac releasing was correct. It's like that was correct. So it's not like there were many other arguments in favor of him winning at that time. But it was one of those things that caught my eye that you were right about in terms of that recurrence. And then as we got further into seeing other recurrences, I started being more open to paying attention to that. I started seeing it everywhere this year. And as a result of that, I've been working on other charts, especially in the Houses series. There are a bunch of charts that came up, for example, with Chaz Bono. That was a really good example I mentioned in the fifth House episodes. And where it's led me is, I think, a good way to adopt a technique, which I've been sort of reluctantly dragged into accepting that this is really a technique that's working, and it's working in very interesting ways and doing something different, approaching things from a different perspective than I'm used to. But I've gotten to the point of the past year where I can no longer sort of ignore what it's doing, and it was time to take it seriously and start researching extensively. So that is what I have done. And we're gonna go through a bunch of example charts today in the remainder of this workshop, in the bulk of this workshop, basically, once we finish this introduction.
- [40:15]
A
Yes, this lengthy introduction, but it needed to be fantastic. I'm so glad you've come around. This is a long time coming, this episode, and we've got some really dynamite examples. So, yeah, let's jump in.
- [40:30]
B
Yeah. Once again, you are light years ahead of the game. Having lectured on this. Like I said in UAC 2012, going way back, we'll mention some of your examples from your UAC lecture back then. I do to mention the plan for today. So because this is, I think, going to be many people's first introduction to the technique, this is my first time really outlining it in detail in the podcast, even though we've had references to it for years and I've explained it at different points in passing. I want to make a compelling case for it today. And one of the ways I want to do that is by simplifying things so that today we're only going to focus on conjunctions and recurrence transits involving conjunctions for the most part, where a person's born on a conjunction between two planets and then will show how an important event in their life happened when the same two planets were conjunct or forming a conjunction in the sky. Because I think that simplifies the technique and will make it more straightforward and easy to understand as an introduction to it, as well as hopefully more compelling to actually, you know, show people that this might actually be a thing and to like, make the case for it. So in that way, we are going to be limiting the technique somewhat because as you've shown in your lecture, the technique applies to any aspect, especially if it's like a close aspect between two planets in a person's chart in their birth chart. When that aspect repeats in the sky, even if it's like a trine or an opposition or what have you, that's when an important event will happen in that person's life. But for our purposes, we're gonna restrict it to conjunctions just for the sake of clarity and compellingness. And then maybe we can do follow ups in the future to go into more detail.
- [42:12]
A
Sounds good.
- [42:13]
B
Okay, cool. But yeah, you do work normally with all of the aspects.
- [42:19]
A
Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. If you have Venus sextile Saturn and there's a Venus sextile Saturn transit in the sky, and even if it's not making any other aspect to your natal chart, that's a recurrence transit, it can be any aspect. Absolutely.
- [42:35]
B
Okay, awesome. All right. And then I'll continue inserting some more things about the theory of the technique and other things along the way. But let's finish up this introduction, let's get into example charts and begin looking at how the technique works in practice.
- [42:52]
A
All right.
- [42:53]
B
All right. So my very first example is one I've really been thinking about over the past year, ever since doing the Year Ahead forecast episode for 2025, which we released last December, because one of the things we had to focus on was Uranus moving into Gemini, and that being the Uranus return, finally of the United States, which is another technique you've been talking about for years, where you've been way ahead of the curve. But one of the things that made me nervous about Uranus going into Gemini this time is I realized at one point in preparing that forecast that it would also be a return back to where Uranus was during World War II, when the U.S. first developed the atomic bomb. And the only time that the atomic bomb has been actually deployed and used in warfare, when they used it to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And realizing that the return of Uranus back to that could potentially, I predicted last December, could bring back issues not just with nuclear power, since that marked the beginning of the nuclear age, an important turning point with nuclear power, but also potentially a return to and a recurrence in some ways of some of those things with nuclear weapons as well. And that's already started to play out over the past few months, where Trump just announced in the past few weeks on a Mercury Uranus opposition that the US Is going to begin testing nuclear weapons again. One of the things that that made me realize, though, as I was thinking about that, is that in the birth chart of the United States for, let's say, the Sibley chart, or just the chart for July 4, 1776, for the declaration of Independence, that summer, as the Declaration of Independence was being put together and was signed, no matter what chart you use that summer, whether it's the Sibley Chart or some other chart for around that time, there was a Mars Uranus conjunction that moved into alignment at the time of the Declaration of Independence and the birth chart for the United States that most astrologers use, so that there was this natal signature for Mars conjunct Uranus sort of baked into the birth chart of the United States. And Mars has always traditionally represented war and weapons and explosions and even death. And Uranus has represented technology, technological advancements, sudden things. And when you put Mars and Uranus together, it can be a sudden accident or like a sudden violent event or something like that. So that was a natal signature built into the birth chart of the US which is Mars conjunct Uranus. And then In August of 1945, when the US developed and used the atomic bomb in war for the first time to bomb Hiroshima, Mars was again closely conjunct Uranus in the sky. And I think actually at the moment of that bombing, Uranus was like, right on the midheaven or close to it. So to me, I'VE been thinking about this as a recurrence transit example because it's one of the most stunning if you just think of the entirety of human history and you realize that the country that developed the atomic bomb first had a Mars Uranus conjunction, and then the first and only time that they've used it in war, and the first time it was used in the entirety of human history in war, happened on a Mars Uranus conjunction. That's like a stunning example of a recurrence transit in a country chart to me.
- [46:38]
A
Yeah, it absolutely is. And yeah, when you really look into US history, you see that pop up quite a bit that Mars, Uranus and particularly obviously Uranus in Gemini has an existing relationship on its own in US history. But whenever Mars does join it in Gemini, yeah, things are volatile. And the nuclear bombings of the Japanese cities just being the most extreme of really a chain of events over the centuries that have occurred in US history involving war and that combination.
- [47:20]
B
Right, so here's the chart. So let's say this is the Sibley chart for the US which has Sagittarius rising. Honestly, even though I use the Sibley chart, oftentimes the house placements don't even matter. But just look at where Mars and Uranus are. Where Mars is at 21 degree of Gemini and Uranus is at 8 degree of Gemini. So they're forming certainly a sign based conjunction. It's a little wide as a degree based conjunction, but it's still actually a conjunction between those two planets. So now look at the chart for the atomic bomb attack on Hiroshima, which is August 6, 1945. This is actually a time chart. It was 8:15am with Virgo rising. And at that time in the sky, the degree of the midheaven was at 16 degrees of Gemini, conjunct Uranus at 16 Gemini and Mars was at 9 degrees of Gemini. So it's just this perfect recurrence of that natal aspect between Mars and Uranus at the time of this bombing. And if you just think of the long scope of human history, I can't think of anything more compelling in terms of just a singular moment or time and a turning point in human history where suddenly the development of this weapon was the point at which humanity could destroy itself. And there was a country that developed it first and deployed it, and it happened to coincide with this alignment.
- [48:58]
A
Yeah, just a little FYI that occurs to me is when Mars and Uranus were in Gemini in August of 1945 and the bombs were dropped on those cities. The interesting thing about that Mars in Gemini is that in the last months of 1943, you know, less than two years earlier, the last Mars retrograde had been Mars in Gemini. And so this is Mars coming back into the sign where it had most recently been retrograded, and it's joining Uranus in that sign. I think that's, you know, that. That's another sort of factor in that, in, you know, this really unique phenomenon, this, you know, in human history, at least so far, and hopefully forever. But, yeah, it's. It absolutely resonates with the country's creation when it was also under war. Right.
- [49:55]
B
Yeah. So, and that's August 6, 1945. And then a few days later, the atomic bombing of Nagasaki was on August 9, 1945. And here the Mars Uranus conjunction has grown even closer, where Mars is at 11 Gemini and Uranus is at 16 Gemini. So just imagine that turning point in world history under that conjunction, and that it was something that was built into the birth chart of the US since the very beginning, since the signing of the Declaration of Independence. And as you said, I think that's the most stunning time in which that's come up. Although Mars Uranus conjunctions in Gemini have also historically been relevant to the US at other important turning points, like even the start of the Civil War, Mars and Uranus were conjoining in Gemini, right?
- [50:45]
A
Yeah. The attack on Fort Sumter occurred when Mars was conjoining Uranus in Gemini. And when Mars would be in Gemini over the course of that Civil War, like in World War II, they would be some of the crazier times. Whenever Mars was in Gemini with Uranus during the Civil War or during the Second World War, these could be some of the bloodier, more destructive periods of those wars. In 1864, when Mars went retrograde in Gemini with Uranus, that was when Sherman was burning down Atlanta and doing his march through the South. A lot of destruction. As close as you could make an analogy between the Civil War and the Second World War. Obviously, nothing is like the bombing of the Japanese cities with the atomic bomb. But Sherman's march on Atlanta and the south is about as close as you come to the idea of this total destruction of a place in order to bring the enemy totally to their knees. So, yeah, when Mars joins Uranus, that tends to be what you get.
- [51:53]
B
Right. So here's the birth chart, or not Birth chart. This is the event chart for Confederate forces attacking Fort Sumter and the beginning of the Civil War on April 12, 1861. And we see Mars. And at 6 degrees of Gemini moving into a conjunction very soon with Uranus at 3 degrees of Gemini. So that's just a stunning correlation again, with just like the Civil war beginning very closely on a Mars Uranus conjunction.
- [52:26]
A
Exactly. Yeah. And then it'll come close to ending with one as well, you know. Cause like I said, Mars is retrograde in the last months of the Civil War in Gemini. I guess by the time they get to. To. To April and Lincoln, it's. It has finally moved in, I think, to. To cancer, but only just moved into cancer, you know, shortly before Appomattox, the murder of Lincoln. So like the last. Most of the last six, eight months of the Civil War had Mars in Gemini because he had the retrograde. And Mars always spends about six months in a sign during a retrograde. So that also just sort of like, when you think about it in that terms, that's an extending of the recurrence transit in its own way. Certainly extending the co presence.
- [53:16]
B
Yeah, for sure. And I talked about this on the last forecast episode for. What was it for November of 2025. But I made this diagram because thinking about all of this made me want to pay attention to then, what are the ones coming up? And there's going to be four Mars Uranus conjunctions coming up in Gemini over the next several years While Uranus is transiting through that sign. And the first one, the next one comes up on July 4, 2026, at 3 degrees of Gemini, right on the birthday of the United States, which is pretty startling, that conjunction, that coincidence. The next one will happen June 23, 2028, at 11 Gemini, then June 15, 2030 at 19 Gemini, and June 6, 2032 at 26 Gemini. So we'll be paying attention to the time period around those dates and in probably the month or two leading up to and after them, especially while Mars and Uranus are co present in the same sign, will be a really potent period for that energy and some of the. The troubling potential of it. All right, all right, so that was my first example, and that's a big country one. Obviously we're gonna focus on natal recurrence transits, But I wanted to start there to give one that's gonna be a test case not just for the past, but the future. And we'll see how that goes over the next several years. One of the ones, though, that was really impressive to me that I found. Let me see where to start here to go. In terms of examples, One of the ones that I found in the fifth House series when I was just researching fifth house placements for that big series for the Houses series that I just released over the past couple of months. One of the ones that I found is the birth chart of Chaz Bono, who was born with Sagittarius rising and an exact or very close Venus Saturn conjunction in the fifth house of sex and sexuality. And Venus is at 23 Aries and Saturn is at 23 Aries in a night chart. And what I found fascinating about this when I was doing my research and I was researching Chaz's history with this is that what happened is in the early 1990s, Chaz was gay and was forcibly outed by a tabloid magazine who published basically and outed them as being gay. I think it was in 1990 and it was right on a Venus Saturn conjunction that was occurring in the sky at the that time. And let me find my notes so that I can give you the actual dates. So it was outed in 1990. It was on February 13, 1990, the Star tabloid published an article outing Chaz on a Venus Saturn conjunction by transit, where one of them was at 20 and the other was at 21 cap. So it was like a very close conjunction, replicating the natal conjunction in the birth chart. And then get this. Five years later, on April 18, 1995, Chaz decided to come out deliberately in a cover story in the Advocate magazine, which was like a queer magazine. That was really important, especially in the 1990s and when Chaz deliberately made the decision to come out at that time, Venus was at 25 degrees of Pisces conjunct, Saturn at 20 degrees of Pisces. So it was another recurrence of the natal aspect of Venus Saturn happening at the same time. And I thought this was one of the examples that I came across this month that again, just sort of forcibly forced me my ears to perk up and to take that seriously because it was obviously a very important turning point in the life, two important turning lives. And it tied into also the natal position of Venus and Saturn being in the fifth whole sign house, which is the place of sex and sexuality and can also sometimes relate to a person's sexual orientation. Or sometimes when things involving sexual orientation become important to a person, sometimes we can see the fifth house becoming relevant. And yeah, that was the case here.
- [58:03]
A
Yeah, that's a fantastic example. Chaz's Venus, the natal Venus was about two weeks before it went retrograde. So Chaz's Venus is moving probably slower than Saturn is in that conjunction, ironically. And that first example, when they were outed in 1990, February 13, 1990. That was Venus stationing direct with Saturn. So there are Venus stations also worked into this recurrence along with the conjunction in Saturn.
- [58:37]
B
Yeah, I think that's really important in his case. Chaz is now a trans man. But that was something I saw coming up over and over again myself, is that when one of the planets was also stationing, that tended to mark that, let's say, conjunction in that instance or that recurrence as standing out as being even more important, especially in terms of the overall chronology. So there's additional modifying factors that can help to either filter out or to further specify which conjunctions will be more or less important during the course of the life as well. Yeah, yeah. All right, so that's a good example. Let's see. So moving on to my next example, let's do one of my favorites that I've used in a lot of other contexts, but it's Vincent van Gogh. So Vincent van Gogh, the famous Dutch painter. There's several different recurrences. But one of the ones I thought was the most interesting is that he was born with a natal conjunction and co presence of Mars and Neptune in Pisces, where in his birth chart he had cancer rising and Neptune at 12 degrees of Pisces and Mars at 26 degrees of Pisces. And they're very close to the midheaven which was around 22 degrees of Pisces or so. So a Mars Neptune co presence being in the same sign and conjunction functionally basically in his birth. Birth chart. And what I found recently in researching his biography is that I think it was in the year 1890. Right. Do you have the.
- [60:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [60:29]
B
So in the year 1890, in the late spring, Van Gogh had been suffering with mental health issues and had famously.
- [60:41]
A
1889. Sorry, 1889.
- [60:44]
B
Okay. In the spring of 1889, he was suffering with mental health issues that famously had led him to self mutilate like the previous year or early the same year. And at the time of a Mars Neptune conjunction, he checked himself into a mental health asylum, to a mental asylum and voluntarily committed himself, basically. And it was a Mars Neptune conjunction was closely forming at the time that he checked himself in. And then the following month, while Mars and Neptune were still in the same sign, the sign of Gemini, which is actually his 12th house, which is interesting because the 12th is associated with mental health and also asylums and prisons and things like that. As Mars and Neptune were still in the same sign, Van Gogh actually painted his Most famous painting called the Starry Night. And it was partially based on the view of him looking out his window at the asylum and the sky and the stars that he could see. So he painted his most famous work at a mental health asylum while a Mars Neptune conjunction was in the sky, which was replicating his natal Mars Neptune conjunction in the midheaven in the ninth. Whole sign house. And I thought that was just an incredibly brilliant and compelling example of this idea of recurrence transits.
- [62:09]
A
Absolutely. Yep.
- [62:12]
B
Yeah.
- [62:13]
A
Yeah. His chart has a lot of them, but that's a really good one. Yeah, Right.
- [62:19]
B
So I had found others. I'm trying to remember them really quickly. So he also has like a Venus Mars conjunction in his birth chart. And his brother Theo van Gogh, or who's younger, was born on a Mars Venus conjunction in Taurus. And then you would notice that he quit his art dealer job and decided to become a painter full time on a Venus Mars conjunction. March 30th of 1876.
- [62:45]
A
Right, yeah, correct. As he's turning 24. Yeah. This is like him suddenly deciding he wants to be a painter. And it was his brother Theo who had gotten him that job. So they're both having that Venus Mars recurrence when. When, you know, he. He takes off and does that.
- [63:06]
B
And also like him and his brother.
- [63:09]
A
Yeah, exactly. And then in, you know, and then their father dies years later during another conjunction, which impacts them both, obviously. And it's right when the father does dies, that Vincent paints the first painting that people consider a major work of his, the Potato Eaters, which he does around that spring of 1885 as he's turning 32. And 32 was always. Excuse me, 32 was always a synodic Venus and Mars return. And their father died the same week he was turning 32. And he was painting the Potato Eaters. And a lot of things were coming together under that one recurrence transit in 1885.
- [63:54]
B
That's incredible. And then one final one that I found is that his brother, Theo van Gogh, married his wife, Jo van Gogh Bonger, on April 17, 1889. And this was Venus retrograde conjunct Mars in Taurus. So it's replicating the Venus Mars conjunction of both Van Gogh himself as well as Theo the brother. And then this would become important. This wasn't just like a random thing for Van Gogh, for the brother, but this is actually personally important for Van Gogh because what happened is that Van Gogh suffered with mental health issues towards the end of his life. He painted some of his greatest Works towards the end when he was at the mental health asylum and towards the end of his life. But then he ends up taking his own life at the end without ever selling a single painting. And then all of his paintings then went to his brother, but his brother is so distraught and depressed at the death of Vincent that Theo himself dies, like, two years later. And then all of the paintings sooner than that.
- [65:05]
A
I'm sorry. I'm sure he dies less than a year later, if I remember correctly.
- [65:10]
B
Okay, well, all of the paintings are left to Theo's wife, Jo. And then Jo becomes the one who promotes Vincent's work and paintings and eventually sets up art shows. And the largest eventually exhibition in 1905, 15 years later of Vincent's works ever. And eventually she's the one that's successful in promoting his work and essentially making Vincent become a household name and widely recognized as one of the most important painters in the past century. And so this conjunction, when Theo, Vincent's brother, marries her of Venus conjunct Mars, replicating Vincent's natal Venus Mars conjunction on his midheaven was actually super, super important.
- [66:02]
A
Yeah, but the funny thing is, Theo was also born with that Venus retrograde, because Theo married Joe when he was turning 32. He was a few years younger than Vincent, and so he turned 32 years a few years later. And just as Vincent was turning through and turning 32 when he had that Venus Mars recurrence and their father died and he painted the potato eaters, Theo turned 32 as he married Joe and he had that Venus retrograde with Mars. And, yeah, that totally signifies that she would wind up being this. This default archivist of the Van Gogh legacy. So, yeah, that's another great one. There is one other Venus Mars.
- [66:46]
B
Hold on a second. Because we wouldn't know. Basically, we wouldn't know about Vincent except if not for her. One of the ways that I was blown away by finding this, as I was doing this research is because I've always used, going back 10 years in my Hellenistic astrology course, I used this as an example of derived houses because I could see that that Venus Mars conjunction was so prominent in Vincent's chart on the degree of the midheaven. But it's in the ninth whole sign house. And the ninth whole sign house is the seventh house from the third house of siblings. So it's like Vincent is cancer rising. That's him. Virgo is his third whole sign house. That's his brother Theo. And then the seventh sign from Virgo is Pisces. And that is Joe, where Vincent has this important cluster of Venus, Mars, midheaven Neptune, and then it's the recurrence of those of Venus Mars when Joe and Theo marry, and then Mars Neptune when Vincent paints Starry Night, as well as a bunch of other paintings around that time. Like lilies, for example.
- [68:04]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [68:05]
B
So it's also a good example, like derived houses, basically.
- [68:09]
A
Yep, yep, absolutely. Did we want to cover that one other Venus Mars in his life? It's the one that even people who don't know nothing about art, when they hear the name Vincent Van Gogh, they think of one thing not about what he did as a painter, but something he did to himself on a certain night after he had an argument with Paul Gauguin.
- [68:30]
B
Okay, sure. What was the example?
- [68:32]
A
Oh, on December 23, 1888, just before he wound up, you know, being committed and in a few months painting the sunflowers, there was a Venus Mars conjunction in Aquarius and he got into an argument with Paul Gauguin, who stormed off. And then Van Gogh apparently cut off his own ear and would later offer it to a prostitute at a brothel that the two of them frequented. So yeah, a lot of people know about Van Gogh and the ear, and even that happened on a Venus Mars recurrence transit.
- [69:05]
B
Got it. Okay, so it was like Venus Mars several months earlier conjunction when he cuts off his ear, and then later that year, it's Mars Neptune when he commits himself to the asylum and paints Starry Night. Right, that's brilliant.
- [69:19]
A
Exactly. Yeah.
- [69:20]
B
Okay, so this is great just because it's a complex example showing that it's not just like one planet recurrences, but sometimes there's different alignments in a person's chart that are overlapping or happening at other times that are bringing in this other element. Yeah, incredible. All right, well, that is good. Let's go ahead and move on to our next example. So do you know the Max Planck example? This is actually one that Patrick found, but I wasn't sure how familiar you are with.
- [69:57]
A
Rings a bell. It's funny, I just was thumbing through a biography of Max Planck not long ago, but hum a few bars and I'll fake it. It.
- [70:08]
B
This one I'm not as strong with, but basically Max Planck was one of the founders of quantum theory and he was born on April 23, 1858, and he had this Jupiter Uranus conjunction in his chart with Jupiter at 22 Taurus and Uranus at 27 degrees of Taurus. There was a bunch of other stuff there as well because he had A whole Taurus stellium of Sun, Pluto, Venus, Mercury, Jupiter, Uranus as well. But one of the important outer planet alignments that's pretty close in his chart is Jupiter conjunct Uranus. And one of the examples that Patrick. Our friend Patrick Watson, who's also done a lot of work with recurrence transits over the past, what, 15, 20 years now, after learning it from you and the important influence you played on his work. But Patrick noted that in the year 1900, there was a recurrence of a Jupiter Uranus conjunction in Sagittarius that year at different points. And in that year, he worked out and he developed the idea. He introduced his groundbreaking hypothesis that radiant energy is emitted or absorbed in discrete quanta, which basically initiated the entire quantum physics revolution. And he's basically the originator of quantum theory. And he first delivered his landmark paper to the German Physical Society with the concept of energy quanta at the time, at December 14, 1900, when Jupiter was at 21 and Uranus was at 13 degrees of Sagittarius. So this was basically like the birth of quantum theory. And even though his work was originally met with skepticism, it marked the beginning of that. And then his theories got influenced and got incorporated or allowed and were incorporated in important ways by, like, Einstein and a number of other scientists over the course of the next decade or so. So that it's a really good example of, like, a Jupiter Uranus conjunction, especially in the way that it contradicts classical physics, where energy is believed to be continuous. So it was like a major scientific advancement and discovery.
- [72:40]
A
Yeah, and this is the great thing is, again, Max Planck, we don't know what time he's born. We don't know where it fits into the house scheme. But this is another example of how looking at recurrence transits this way can help you look at a chart that might be otherwise vague to you because you don't have a time of birth. There is still astrological information that you can glean from a given person's date of birth using a simple idea like recurrence transits. So, yeah, I mean, it also sort of emphasizes that angle as well.
- [73:18]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let's do some. Should we do one that goes along with that, which is jobs, or should we do two depressing ones and then jobs in order to break it up?
- [73:32]
A
No, let's do jobs. Although jobs is kind of depressing as well. Spoiler alert, he dies in the end. But, yeah, let's do jobs. It works as a companion piece, I.
- [73:43]
B
Think, right I was going to make a joke that you're a Windows guy, not a Mac guy, but you actually are a Mac guy.
- [73:48]
A
I am a. I am a Mac guy.
- [73:50]
B
Okay.
- [73:51]
A
But I do run Windows on my Mac, so, you know, there you go. I'm platform curious.
- [73:59]
B
Okay, I appreciate that. I appreciate your openness. All right, Steve Jobs. Is this chart up? This is the birth chart of Steve Jobs. Can you see it?
- [74:10]
A
Yep, I sure can.
- [74:11]
B
All right. Just making sure I have the right window up. So Steve jobs is born February 24, 1955. And like Max Planck, Steve Jobs was born under a very close Jupiter Uranus conjunction, which is associated with advancements in technology. Jupiter traditionally represents growth and affirmation and expansion, and Uranus represents technology and technological advancements. So Steve Jobs is born under this Jupiter Uranus conjunction. And this Jupiter Uranus conjunction shows up at, like, at least three major turning points in his life, right?
- [74:51]
A
Yeah, there's three or four, but it really outlines the chapters of his life in this really discernible way. You could take the Jupiter Uranus conjunctions that Steve jobs had every 14 years in his lifetime, and they could make up the five chapters of a book about him. And those conjunctions would be these perfect sort of new chapter headings in that book. They have that kind of feel. They just sort of. They feel very organic when you're looking at a person's lifetime this way. Yeah, I think people will. If they don't understand what I'm saying now, they'll understand. As we go through the example, it illustrates itself nicely.
- [75:35]
B
Okay, well, let's do it quickly with the highlights, and then we'll get into more detail. So the first one is in the late 1960s, there was a Jupiter Uranus conjunction, and he had a recurrence. And this is when he gets his first tech job, famously working for Bill Hewitt, who he cold called and got a job from. Cause these conjunctions only happen every 14 years, and that's one of the things that makes them additionally impressive. Then the next time there was a Jupiter Uranus conjunction, it was in Sagittarius. In 1993, this is when Jobs introduced the least successful 83. Sorry. Yeah. In 1983, Jupiter Uranus in Sagittarius. And Jobs introduced with Apple. He was the founder of Apple Computers, the Lisa computer, which was revolutionary because it introduced the graphical user interface as well as the use of a mouse to interact with the computer to the public. And these would become core concepts that would define the Macintosh and really all the personal computing at the same time. He successfully recruited John Scully to become the head of Apple and to become the CEO. But then, unfortunately, Scully later would end up being the one who would fire Jobs not that long after that, like a few years later, ousting Jobs from Apple. And then there's one other, but I'll skip to the next one because it ties in so well. Then you jump forward to 1997, and there's another Jupiter Uranus conjunction in Aquarius. And this is when Jobs, who was ousted from apple in the 1980s, he ended up going and founding another computer company called Next. And that company ended up being bought by Apple in 1997. And this brought Steve Jobs back to Apple initially as an advisor, but then he would eventually basically take over the company eventually again. So it marks his return time, apple under the 1997 Jupiter Uranus conjunction. And then finally you jump forward to the next conjunction, which is happening around 2011. There was a series of conjunctions in 2010, 2011, and at this time, he ends up announcing his medical leave of absence from Apple. And it effectively marks the end of his career leading Apple Computer, which he founded because he would then die later that year later in 2011. So it marks the end of his career as well as the beginning and these important turning points in the middle. Sorry, I think it froze again. So pretty good.
- [78:17]
A
Yeah, it did, yeah. I just wanted to summarize, when you think about it, he's born under the Conjunction. The next conjunction is he discovers computers, really starts working with them. The next conjunction is like sort of Apple at its peak, at its first peak, before he leaves and is fired. And then the next one is when he comes back to Apple. And then the next one is when he dies. Like, you see what I mean? It really is just like the chapters of a book. If his life could be a, you know, five chapters in a book, you would. You would sort of divide them that way. It's very. Goes with the seams of his timeline. I just. I don't know if I'm putting it right, but. And it's just a very natural way to break down his life into those parts.
- [79:06]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the other things, there's other interesting things. Like in the 1983 conjunction, he gave this famous speech in Aspen, Colorado, where he uncannily predicted the future of technology, including concepts that would become the iPad, the Apple App Store, and wireless networking. And what's crazy about that is that speech was on the conjunction in 1983, on the conjunction in 2011, around that time. That's when the iPad itself is being released. It was released in 2010 under the earlier conjunction. So it's like he even is talking about this concept on a conjunction in 83 that's so forward looking that eventually he would release the very product that he was giving intimations about later. Like two conjunctions later.
- [79:58]
A
Yeah, I even remember I covered Steve Jobs when I did that talk on recurrence transits in New Orleans in 2012. And he had only been dead about nine, 10 months by that point. But my friend who I drove to New Orleans with had a brand new iPhone. And I remember we're driving through Kentucky, she was a vegetarian, she wanted to find a vegetarian restaurant. And for the first time we could use this phone as we're driving across America to tell us where to find a vegetarian restaurant off the highway in Kentucky. And gosh darn it, it did it. And in 2012 that seemed like some like huge, you know, like jump ahead technologically today it sounds quite mundane, but at the time it seemed like really amazing that we could do that. That and that was brand new. Just as he left, these things were still coming out.
- [80:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's another great example of scientists and innovators which we've always associated with Jupiter Uranus conjunctions, for example. And you get people like Max Planck or Steve Jobs. But it's like then for Jobs and for Planck, that cycle continues to be important. Every time those two planets come together in terms of their innovations with technology and science as well as their personal story that's tied in with that and how it impacts the world in general.
- [81:30]
A
Yep, yep. In a big, big way. Again, it's that theme, that idea of there being a theme. Like whenever Jupiter Uranus was making a conjunction, it's like Steve's theme music was playing again. It was time for him to show us what Jupiter Uranus conjunction meant to him.
- [81:50]
B
Exactly. Yeah, that's what I think. It's like that idea of theme music. I came up with the idea of zodiacal releasing being the chapters of a person's life. The chapters and the paragraphs and the sentences, which is how the technique always struck me. But yeah, there's something about the. And this idea of resonances or music or sound and it sort of invokes that ancient concept of the music of the spheres. But there's something to it. And I don't know if this is an access point, but the fact that these are mundane aspects maybe, because obviously it's very personal and personally relevant for the person. But For a lot of these also, we're seeing the ways in which they impacted the world in different ways. So maybe that's part of the crossover as well. In terms of these being mundane aspects that are happening in the sky at the same time.
- [82:40]
A
Yeah. I mean, obviously when it comes to Max Planck and Steve Jobs, these are, you know, two individuals who unambiguously did things that, that have changed our lives. I mean, Jobs in particular with regard to you and I. But yeah, you know, it's, it's not always world changing, but it's always going to be Jupiter, Uranus or whatever the combination is. It's always gonna be true to the planetary combination.
- [83:05]
B
Yeah. And that's been something that's really interesting is that these examples have really clued me in sometimes on or it's given me a different perspective for understanding some of those planetary combinations and what they mean in very concrete ways by looking at these recurrences in the life of people that have them. And then sometimes you get a much more stark example of what that combination is all about. Like in these two instances is.
- [83:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. And the whole sort of chapters in a book feeling. I mean, particularly when you get these recurrence transits between slower moving planets that only like Jupiter, Uranus I think is every 14 years. So things like that, that's where you get the real chapter breakdown feeling from these. We'll see it again when we get to Michael Jackson later.
- [83:55]
B
Yeah. It is reminiscent of some of the Time Lord techniques and the way the slower moving ones can break up these really large parts of the life. But that's what's interesting. It's so variable based on the planetary cycles because some of them are very quick inner planet cycles like let's say Mercury and Mars or sun and Saturn, which is like every year versus medium sized ones like Venus and Mars or Mars and Jupiter or you get longer ones like Saturn, Uranus, Saturn, Pluto, Jupiter, Saturn, which is every 20 years and so on and so forth.
- [84:33]
A
Exactly. With my chart ironically being something of a pioneer or whatever in recurrence transits, my chart is mostly a stellium. The biggest aspect of my chart really is Sun, Neptune square. And once a year there's a Sun Neptune square. And. But I have looked at my life and every week when that Neptune square occurs, there is something in my life that, that does resonate with that transit. Even though it's this very fast moving annual one, there is something there. I've learned to identify it. You know, kind of like getting the flu once a year. Or something like, oh, here we go again. You know, like that kind of reliable rhythm.
- [85:17]
B
Yeah. Do you have any other examples of recurrence transits? I wonder if this is a good example. Time to mention ours. Or if we save those for later. I don't remember if you had other ones.
- [85:28]
A
Oh, I mean, not really. I mean, that's the thing about my chart. I don't have many. The Venus Mars conjunction, or Venus Jupiter conjunction, or Moon Mars Square. But that's just it. With my chart, there aren't that many. I really learned them looking at other people's charts. I don't know if I would have learned them if I was only looking at my life because of the layout of my chart.
- [85:53]
B
Got it. Okay. And I've been focused on learning the others. And I only started recently applying it and seeing it to my own and then being impressed by some of the alignments. Why don't I do that real quick just for the sake of making sure I include it and include some of my best examples early on.
- [86:15]
A
Oh yeah, you and I both have Venus Jupiter, don't we?
- [86:20]
B
I don't, but it's been an important one. And that's one of the interesting questions I have for other reasons is it almost becomes important for me by secondary progression, which is weird. But I don't know if that's really it. I have some open questions. All right, so here's my chart and I have a few different combinations that I was looking at. But one of them. Maybe I should do it with an anime. I haven't been using the BI wheel because I know it's going to slow us down if we do. And I try to look up the transits, but maybe I should for this example, for the sake of showing what I'm actually talking about, which I haven't been doing, we've been doing it with just the natal chart in order to make this quicker. But March. All right, so one of the things. Actually, no, I'll start with the natal chart. In the natal chart itself, I have a Mars Jupiter conjunction. It's in the 12th house. 12th house is not a great house. It's often associated with illness or chronic illness, especially long term illness. Opposite to the sixth house, which is more acute illnesses typically or injuries. So that Mars Jupiter conjunction, I had a recurrence of that actually in Capricorn in March of 2020. And that was when I got sick, famously with COVID right at the very beginning of the pandemic. So March 15, 2020. And because that was famously when the Lockdowns happened in the US was March of 2020. And I just kind of barely missed that and got Covid right before the lockdown set it in place, which really sucked. It was unfortunate timing for me. But one of the things that you can see that was happening that week, the week that I got really seriously ill, is that Mars and Jupiter were forming a conjunction in the sky which went exact March 19th. So it was really under that exact conjunction that I'm deathly ill for a week or for a month. And then after that, it hit my system in some sort of weird way that the doctors don't understand, where it created some sort of permanent damage that people call long Covid nowadays. But it's a persistent chronic illness with chronic fatigue and memory loss. And I can't exert myself very much because when I do, I fall into a deep energy hole for like a week after that. And it's created all sorts of health issues for the past five years, which I've slowly come to understand are permanent and potentially irreversible in my life and has limited me so that I can't travel because I get sick so easily. And I have gotten sick with COVID subsequent times, which has made it worse. Over the past several years, I've had to stop going to conferences and giving lectures, for example, where I traveled all over the world in the decade leading up to that, like giving lectures and speaking at conferences. And I would be headlining most conferences right now if I was able to, but I can't. And it leads back to this Mars Jupiter conjunction, which was a recurrence for me in my 12th house in March of 2020, that time to getting sick. On top of that, I also had a Saturn Pluto co presence in Scorpio, which is like a Saturn Pluto conjunction, basically, where Pluto is at 2 degrees of Scorpio and Saturn's at 17 degrees of Scorpio. And that was also a recurrence that year because famously, in January, right when the World Health Organization was recognizing Covid as an upcoming pandemic, basically Saturn and Pluto exactly conjoined at that time and were still in a very, very close conjunction, which happened to be also in my 12th house at that time. So I was having multiple recurrences happening in my 12th house at that time. I got really sick. You can go back and watch the forecast videos for that time where I look and sound absolutely terrible. Yeah. But it was a huge turning point in my life that happened to coincide with those two recurrences. So pretty good.
- [90:43]
A
Grim. Well, yeah, pretty grim. But you're still with us, thank God.
- [90:52]
B
Yeah, well, that's the thing about this. We've had some positive ones, but these do not always coincide with good things. You know, obviously there can be bad alignments as well. And the insight that this gives us can give us some helpful things for understanding and contextualizing some of the most important, albeit difficult times in our life.
- [91:18]
A
Yeah, I guess you were 35 at this point, weren't you? And that's a 12th house profection year as well. Just to throw it all on even more.
- [91:28]
B
Yeah, it was a 12th house profection year. Everything was hitting that. Mars, which is always my most problematic planet in the 12th house because it's a day chart. So Mars is contrary to the sex. Yeah. So it's a lot of stuff. So more positively, another one that I found in my own chronology that I was really impressed by just in the past few days as I was working on this is I also have a Mercury Pluto co presence in the same sign, which is a sign based conjunction with Mercury at 23 Scorpio and Pluto at 2 degrees of Scorpio. And this is one of my aspects I associate with that. I really like to investigate and like dig down deep into things and research things really extensively. Like when I get focused on something I want to research, it's like my. Who was it that had that? The writer of Sherlock Holmes, I think had that conjunction as well.
- [92:24]
A
Arthur Conan Doyle.
- [92:26]
B
Yeah. So interestingly I looked back and I found when I first started studying Hellenistic astrology was in 2004 and I started studying Hellenistic astrology with Demetra George in a class that she was teaching at Kepler College. And I was able to find with the help of my friend who I took that class with at the time, Laura Machete, she was able to find the start of that term. And it was 12-8-2004. And at that time Mercury had recently stationed retrograde conjunct Pluto. And on that day Mercury was at 20 degrees of Sagittarius conjunct Pluto at 21 degrees of Sagittarius in my 11th whole sign house, but also co present with the degree of my Midheaven that's importing 10th house significations into that sign. So this is a replication of my natal Mercury Pluto sign based conjunction in a very close degree based conjunctionessentially the day or the week that I started studying ancient astrology, which would eventually become my thing that I would write a book about over a decade later.
- [93:39]
A
I met you about three months after this I met you in March of 2025 online. So one thing led to another.
- [93:46]
B
Yeah, nice. Yeah. So one of the things that was funny about that, though, with it being like a Mercury retrograde conjunct Pluto that I remembered and laughed about, that I'd forgotten, was at the beginning of that term, I got a book that was like a collection of excerpts of translations of the different Hellenistic astrologers that came with the course that was put together by Robert Schmidt. And then Demetra also had an extensive write up and commentary and her actual teachings on the material that was also supposed to be emailed out or sent out at the same time, but there was a snafu and I didn't receive her notes and her lessons, basically. So for the first three weeks of the class starting at this point, I only focused on just the translations. And I had to try very hard and read them very carefully and deeply to truly understand what they were saying when I didn't have any other help or commentary or anything else to do. So so that I had this early experience for the first three weeks while Mercury was retrograde basically until the end of the month, of trying to just read the texts on their own terms and coming to my own conclusions about them without anybody else's commentary, not Demetra's and not Schmidt's or anyone else's. And then at the end of the month when Mercury stationed direct, I was giving answers that were not quite what Demetra was expecting on the homework. And we realized that I hadn't gotten her notes. And so then she sent it to me and it was rectified and then I caught up and everything. But it was an interesting early experience in terms of that and just in terms of then foundational experience of how then I've always approached Hellenistic astrology and trying to read the texts on their own and coming to my own conclusions about what they said or what they meant.
- [95:38]
A
That's a brilliant story. And yeah, it's funny how sometimes a seeming deficit actually helps you exercise some muscle that becomes unique to you, your own unique set of skills.
- [95:56]
B
Right? Yeah, exactly. And then that was the purpose of my book later on, is that it's actually really hard to do that, to just pick up the Hellenistic texts on their own and read them and understand them, especially without they commonly use technical terms that they don't define. And so it's actually kind of tough to do that. And that was the purpose of me publishing my book over a decade later in 2017, is giving people a primer. So that they could have an overview of the Hellenistic tradition and then that would make it easier for them to read and understand the text themselves. And I always encourage people to do that and read them on their own terms and not just take what I say about them for granted. So get this, though. This leads to one other weird recurrence and weird facet of the technique that I keep seeing coming up, which is look at this chart. One of the other things that's happening in this chart when literally the week I first start studying Hellenistic astrology is there's a Venus Mars conjunction that's happening in scorpio in my 10th whole sign house, where Venus on this day is at 20 degree of Scorpio and Mars is at 18 degree of Scorpio. Look at what happens over a decade later, where I spend over 10 years. I started in 2007 writing a book on Hellenistic astrology and basically researching a book on Hellenistic astrology. And after 10 years, I finally published the book on February 10, 2017. So that Venus Mars conjunction, Scorpio in my 10th house, the day I start studying Hellenistic astrology. And then look at this, the day I published my book On Hellenistic astrology, February 10, 2017, there's a very close Venus Mars conjunction in Aries in my third whole sign house, the place of writing and communication with Venus at 5 degrees of Aries and Mars at 10 degrees of Aries. So what I took from this, and what's a little bizarre about it, is it set it up so that me starting to study Hellenistic astrology created almost like a foundation chart of its own with its own signature, like Venus conjunct Mars in Scorpio. And then that signature was repeated when the culmination of that starting to study Hellenistic astrology happened with me publishing the book on it. And then Venus Mars again repeats.
- [98:19]
A
Yep. Pretty amazing. It also explains that south node. But that's for another conversation.
- [98:30]
B
In terms of the eclipses, because there was an eclipse repetition as well. But I don't know if that's what you mean.
- [98:35]
A
Oh, sorry.
- [98:41]
B
In terms of the eclipse repetition or what do you mean because there was an eclipse. Interesting recurrence as well.
- [98:47]
A
Yeah, no, I mean you have the south node with all those Scorpio planets, including the Mercury, Pluto, and in December of 2004, for when you were first taking the class because you were 20 years old, that south node was again in Scorpio, though the at the other end of the sign. And the south node is very much about learning things the way you learned without that book sort of Learning by. By process as opposed to like learning by method which is more north node. But yeah, I didn't want to drag you too far into this, but it was just a little. That really to my mind explains that that south node in. In overall stellium in your chart and the fact that it was occurring at that time as well.
- [99:34]
B
Yeah, I mean I think that's really interesting because I was looking at a few months before I started studying Hellenistic astrology. I moved to Seattle to study at Kepler and that was basically happening under this Mars Jupiter conjunction and co presence that was happening in my ninth house. So there was another recurrence there, but I wasn't going to go into that. But there were eclipses happening at that time and it was this eclipse in late October and I ended up moving around that time. And I had known about the concept of whole sign houses for a year up to that point, but I rejected it. Ironically, just with this technique I often start out kind of skeptical and not easily picking something up. So I knew about whole sign houses from a Rob Hand article or something from a year before this and had rejected it. But then I noticed that I ended up moving events constellated. So I ended up moving very close to this eclipse that happened in Taurus in my fourth whole sign house. And that was one of my early instances that made me perk up and start paying attention that whole sign houses could be a legitimate thing because otherwise it was weird for that lunation to take place. That lunation had taken place there around the time of my movement.
- [100:53]
A
Absolutely. And the other thing that's interesting about it, when you have a birthday like that, when the sun is with the south node. Something else that happened to you in that year is very south node is this was the year you would be invited to come live in Cumberland. This is a very sort of south node, you know, sun kind of experience where yeah, the south node is. Is chosen or invited or offered things as opposed to the north node which has to seek out or, or you know, be proactive in. In you know, achieving what it needs to achieve or getting what it wants. The south node is very much like, you know, that that all sort of happened. I met you online then we met in person with, with Bill. We went to dinner. Bill invited you to come live in Cumberland. Next thing you knew you were living in Cumberland studying Hellenistic astrology by the end of August. So yeah, that all sort of, that's all very south node like where it's not so much about what you're putting into place, but how things are conspiring around you and how you go with the flow and accept opportunities.
- [102:00]
B
Right, yeah. So that's incredible. And then just to briefly mention a few others from my chronology, one that I mentioned this summer, over the summer when there was a Venus Jupiter conjunction is like I have this weird Venus Jupiter 1 and it's not a signature in my birth chart. So I've often been a little curious about why that shows up in my stuff. But my partner Leisa first emailed me in 2006 about something like some question. And it was our first contact and it was like the day of a Venus Jupiter conjunction in Scorpio. And then in my chart by secondary progression, her and I ended up getting together in a relationship a few years later when Venus and Jupiter exactly conjoined by secondary progression in my secondary progressed chart. And then later we spent some time apart and we got back together on a Venus Jupiter conjunction in 2015. And then over the summer, this summer, under the Venus Jupiter conjunction in Cancer in my sixth house, she had just had surgery for. For breast cancer and I was taking care of her under that conjunction. So there's this weird history behind that that's almost tied in with the first contact chart between us, which is a Venus Jupiter conjunction, which I find fascinating because it's not necessarily a recurrence in my chart, but it's something there that sometimes just like how I started studying Hellenistic astrology on Venus Mars conjunction and then the book was published on a Venus Mars conjunction. Sometimes events in our life can almost set up a new foundation chart for subsequent recurrences.
- [103:48]
A
Absolutely. But I do also think there's something to be said for the fact that the progressed Venus was coming to Jupiter. And sometimes that can also, you know, a secondary progressed aspect is an aspect that you've sort of arrived at over the course of life. And then the recurrence transits can, you know, be a recurrence of a progressed aspect as opposed to a natal one. 1.
- [104:13]
B
Is that what it is? Because I've been puzzling about that.
- [104:16]
A
Yeah, I think so. For me, secondary progressions are transits on a different. On an internal clock, but they are transits essentially. And so, yeah, it's that element of you have this kind of this transit on the inside and then it manifests on the outside whenever currents transit happens.
- [104:41]
B
I've used this example before, but just to show people what we're talking about because it's just stunning because you imagine it's like this is my birth chart where I have Venus at 15 degrees of Sagittarius and Jupiter is at 8 degrees of Capricorn. So it's like they're not in the same sign. And this wouldn't be considered a co presence. But they are if you were to look out that day in roughly the same region of the sky, let's say so that Venus is moving towards Jupiter and it's a little less than 30 degrees away. But then if you start animating my chart by secondary progressions like one day per year, you see Venus moving through the rest of SAGITTARIUS Starting at 15 and moving through the end going into capricorn in the mid-90s to early 2000s. And then it comes up right on Jupiter and conjoins it. And then the Moon actually swoops through and conjoins Venus and Jupiter at the same time when the longest and most significant relationship of my life begins. So I've always thought that was a stunning example. But then it's also been weird that these Venus Jupiter conjunctions also occur at other important times in the relationship.
- [106:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, but I mean I, to my mind that, that explains it beautifully, you know. Yeah, secondary progressions do that. They interact with the other transits with the real time transits.
- [106:18]
B
Okay.
- [106:19]
A
I think I treat them as being the same technique in a way, you know, like I don't, I don't use secondary progressions without transits.
- [106:28]
B
Got it. Okay, well let's bookmark that. Sorry for the long digression. But we'll come back, we'll come back to that another episode. Okay, so I've mentioned now in my example, for example, the Mars Jupiter was a tough one or Saturn Pluto conjunction was a tough one. There's other examples that can be really tough. So I want to mention a few of those that I came across which are like other chart examples that I've used at different points. And one of the chart examples I've used in the past was Rock Hudson who was a famous actor in the middle of the 20th century. He was born November 17, 1925. And he was born with a Mars Saturn co presence with Mars at 2 degrees of Scorpio in a sign based conjunction with Saturn at 17 degrees of Scorpio in a night chart. Rock Hudson was a famous actor, but one of the things about him is that he was gay and he was closeted at a time when being a gay man could have cost him his job as an actor, basically. So he had to stay in the closet for the majority of his life. But then what happened is on June 5, 1984, he was diagnosed with AIDS like very early on in the AIDS epidemic and pandemic. And his diagnosis happened under a very close Mars Saturn conjunction in Scorpio within 3 degrees with Mars retrograde applying to Saturn. And he was diagnosed with aids. And then later they announced it and his publicist and him announced it. And it was one of the early things that really shocked people in the United States and make people start taking the AIDS pandemic more seriously. Basically that this very famous actor got sick with it and then subsequently died not that long after.
- [108:32]
A
Yeah, and I remember it at the time he went to the White House because of course he was friends with Ronnie and Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan. They came from the same Hollywood milieu. But it was, you know, suddenly Ronald and Nancy Reagan were sort of looking awkward and embarrassed standing next to their old friend because he was kind of emaciated and sick and essentially, you know, it was only. Yeah, he was the first celebrity to become, to be diagnosed with AIDS and to die of it. And you know, it sort of, it collided with the, the image that the Reagan's had been cultivating during the presidency. And yeah, you know, Reagan didn't, didn't do much for, for AIDS research during his term and, and you know, even with his friend dying. So it was, it was all very powerful, all happening. It really was, you know, that, that moment when everyone was really starting to understand what this, this new disease was all about and what it was doing.
- [109:38]
B
Yeah, yeah. So one of the important things from this example that I really ought to emphasize because I know some people might initially, it might be different than how some astrologers are used to practicing. But one of the things I've really revived from Hellenistic astrology and ancient astrology is the use of both sign based aspects as well as degree based aspects and both being important and relevant. And this is a good example of this and partially how this technique works, which is that, you know, Mars and Saturn in his birth chart are in a co presence or sign based conjunction by sign, but by degree they're pretty far apart where Mars is at 2 degrees of Scorpio and Saturn is at 17 degrees of Scorpio. But what I would say and what I think this example shows is that nonetheless when two planets are either in the same sign or when they're close in degrees, it does create that signature in the birth chart. And then when that conjunction happens in the future, either by sign, both by sign as well as by degree, because here at the actual time of the Event. The conjunction was extremely close. A significant event happens and actually takes place. So that's something I want to emphasize here is both the sign based aspects as well as degree based aspects are important and relevant when it comes to this technique.
- [111:00]
A
Think. Yeah, absolutely. You know what's, what's funny is Rock Hudson's wife, I mean he, you know, he was gay, but he, he had a, a wife to. As a beard that he married when he was 30 in 1955. She, her name was Phyllis Hudson. She was three weeks younger than him and she had the Mars Saturn conjunction in her chart. And when he, and he married her as his progressed Mars was just going to. Past his, you know, progressed Saturn because he was, you know, just turning 30 and he was a few weeks older than her. So yeah, it's like he married her, she had the natal conjunction and, and, and he was having that progressed conjunction. Not unlike you meeting Lisa. So there's, there's something to that as well.
- [111:51]
B
Got it. Okay.
- [111:52]
A
And it was, and it was a Mars Saturn marriage. It wasn't, you know, it was a phony marriage.
- [111:58]
B
Okay. Yeah, so that's a heavy example, but an important one. Another heavy one that I found in my research is Malcolm X who was born May 19, 1925. And he had this Mars Pluto conjunction in cancer that was pretty close with Mars in the seventh. Whole sign house at 6 degree of cancer, conjunct Pluto at 11 degree of cancer. And what I found is that when he was murdered, when he was assassinated, there was a Mars Pluto conjunction in the sky at that time. So there was an exact recurrence of the same pretty difficult like Mars Pluto is a pretty violent signature. Natally signature in the birth chart. And then it recurs at the time when he was assassinated.
- [112:55]
A
Yeah, that's a very good example. The Mars when he was murdered was just coming out of a retrograde. So it was a very slow Mars with that Pluto as well.
- [113:09]
B
Okay, let me pull up. So here's the actual date when he was murdered. February 21, 1965. And we see Mars is actually retrograde at. This is correct, right. Mars at 24 degrees of Virgo and Pluto at 15 degrees of Virgo in his. No, sorry. This is Hudson's chart on the wrong. This is the right transits, but it's looking at the wrong inner chart.
- [113:41]
A
But it is true that he was shot. Yeah, the Mars was retrograde with the Pluto. I thought it was a little before the station, but. No, it was after the station.
- [113:50]
B
Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Okay. Here it is. So this is Malcolm Axon's chart in the middle. And then the Mars Pluto conjunction was happening in its ninth whole sign house with Mars at 24 Virgo. Yeah, like you said, having stationed retrograde recently. So this is another one of those examples that we were talking about. When one of the planets, especially when the faster moving planet has stationed recently either retrograde or direct. That makes the recurrence even more important. And part of the reason for that is because it means then that the conjunction in this instance was extended over a long period of time. So it both extends the transit, but it also intensifies the transit. And therefore oftentimes will make it stand out more in the person's chronology. And. And if somebody was skeptical about the technique. And skeptical about the frequency of some of the recurrences, especially of inner planets or faster moving planets. This is one of the filtering factors that you can use in order to try to differentiate and create more of a hierarchy of which recurrences in some instances will be more important than others.
- [115:05]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And in the case of Malcolm and his murder, you know, that Mars retrograde, it really was this drawn out affair. Seven days before he was shot, his house was blown up by a bomb. You know, he knew they were on his. On his tail. He knew his days were numbered. Essentially that whole period, the last few months of his life were very sort of frantic. But very, you know, very prolific in terms of everything that was happening. But, yeah, that Mars really hovered over him for those last few months. And right up until that last moment when he was murdered as he was doing a talk, he was giving one of his speeches and he was murdered by people in the audience.
- [116:01]
B
Right. Somebody came up and shot him.
- [116:04]
A
Yeah.
- [116:05]
B
Okay. All right. Yeah, so that is another heavy example. But again, sometimes, I guess we've seen that a couple of times now, where sometimes a natal signature in the birth chart can happen or recur again towards the end of a person's life in some instances. Which can be an important bookend in and of itself. Most definitely. All right, we're back from break. Let's go through some more examples quickly. Because I want to jam a bunch more in before we wrap up. We actually still have a ways to go, at least an hour. But I want to pack in as many examples as we can during that section. Especially of some of the really great ones that I found. So the first one I'd like to show you is a cool part of the technique that taught me something new that I thought was really Fascinating. So this is the birth chart of Kurt Cobain. So this is the birth chart of Kurt Cobain. Kurt Cobain was born February 20, 1967. He had a Venus Saturn conjunction in his chart. That was very close in the seventh whole sign house with Venus at 26 degrees of Pisces, conjunct Saturn at 28 degrees of Pisces. So Kurt Coban was the frontman of Nirvana. And in the 1990s, Kurt Cobain famously got together with Courtney Love, who was another musician and rock star. Now, Courtney Love, look at her chart, was born on July 9, 1964, with a Venus Mars conjunction. So Venus is retrograde at 20 degrees of Gemini, conjunct Mars at 15 degrees of Gemini. Okay, so that means, you know, he has a Venus Saturn signature and she has a Venus Mars signature. Look at what happened the day that they got married, which was February 24, 1992. There was a triple conjunction of Venus, Mars and Saturn in the sign of Aquarius. So it replicates both his natal Venus Saturn conjunction and her natal Venus Mars conjunction to create this perfect triple conjunction, which is like a recurrence transit for both of them involving their natal Venus on the day that they were married. I thought that was just absolutely astounding. What do you think?
- [118:29]
A
Yeah, no, it is astounding. It's even slightly wilder when they apparently first locked eyes on each other, January 12, 1990, at a club called Satyricon in Portland. Courtney was there with a friend. Nirvana were playing a gig. They. They interacted briefly. But when they met, Venus and Saturn had recently been conjunct in Capricorn. Then Venus had gone into Aquarius, and it was retrograde in Aquarius heading back into Capricorn to make another conjunction with Saturn when the two of them met. So even though they didn't meet, like technically under. Under a recurrence, it was like really like sandwiched in between a couple of Venus Saturn conjunction recurrences that Kurt had at that time. He had had a hard time during the conjunction prior to meeting Courtney. The Nirvana were on tour in Europe and he kind of had a bit of a breakdown there. And then he met his future wife as that recurrence was gearing up to come back. So. Yeah, but the combination of their two charts in one big happy marriage of recurrences is also really, really very interesting.
- [119:48]
B
Brilliant. Yeah. So that's a principle then that could be extrapolated elsewhere in terms of combined recurrences for two people. One other really fascinating one that I found with respect to them is Their relationship began on October 12, 1991. And here's the chart for that where there was a Venus Jupiter conjunction in Virgo that was very close at that time. So here's Venus at like 4 degrees of Virgo, conjoining Jupiter at 6 degrees of Virgo. So this is reportedly the day that they got together. It's the beginning of their relationship. Sorry, Their relationship began with a Venus Jupiter conjunction. And then get this, the following year, their daughter, Frances Bean Cobain is born. And she's born August 18, 1992, at 7:48am with 13 degrees of Virgo rising. And Venus is conjunct Jupiter in Virgo with Venus at 13 degrees of Virgo, conjunct Jupiter at 18 degrees of Virgo. So basically, they started their relationship on a Venus Jupiter conjunction in Virgo. And then the result of their union was the birth of their first and only daughter, who was born with Virgo rising and Venus conjunct Jupiter in her own birth chart. That's again, just like, uncanny to me and just astounding.
- [121:25]
A
And what's even wilder is about seven weeks earlier, in late August of 1991, Venus was retrograde in Leo, Conjunct Jupiter in Leo. And that weekend, Nirvana played the Reading festival in England, then another festival on Sunday in Belgium. And Courtney and Kurt did meet up there. There's a. A movie that Sonic Youth made called the the Year Punk Broke. And you can see Courtney Love backstage at those shows, telling the camera that Kurt Cobain makes her heart melt, even though they were still, you know, more than a month away from actually becoming a couple. So there's. There's already that electricity is charged between the two of them. And wouldn't you know, that Sunday, that concert in Belgium, I was there, but I didn't see Courtney, but I did see nirvana open at 11 in the morning.
- [122:22]
B
Nice. Yeah, I like that. And you're Leo rising, which is funny. Yeah, well, that's a good point that I'm glad you made that I saw come up as well. And it's an important point, which is that oftentimes, while we're focused on singular events, sometimes in this instance, oftentimes around these dates, there's an unfolding of a series of events during the course of the two planets passing through the same sign together. Especially if one of them is retrograde. And if there's an extended retrograde going on, I'll actually have a really good example of that with Edward Snowden later. But that would be a good example of that. Then where one of your points or one of the things we can take from that is even though there was this singular date in which they officially got together, which was very close to the exact conjunction in Virgo, there was a build up to that when Venus was retrograde and co present or conjoining Jupiter by sign over the lead up to that, basically.
- [123:23]
A
Right, right, exactly. I guess the other thing in that is the day before I saw them, they played the Reading Festival as an opening act at 11 in the morning with the Venus retrograde in Leo conjunct Jupiter. And a year and five days later, they play the Reading Festival again, but this time as the headliner as like a major international rock band. Whereas exactly a year earlier they had been the opening act. It really just pointed toward the sort of the meteoric rise, how fast it all happened. My point being they were both Venus. Venus was conjunct Jupiter in Virgo when they played reading in 92. It wasn't long after Francis Bean was born. So it also ties into there. Sorry I left out that part to make it relevant.
- [124:11]
B
Got it. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So to take the main takeaway from this and what I gained from this though, besides the triple conjunction, which is a blend of their two natal signatures, which was incredible on the date of their marriage, again we see an example where the start of their relationship itself created a foundation chart, and then subsequent recurrences of the signature of the relationship chart itself end up in important turning points in the relationship. In that instance, the birth of their child, which then harkens back to Leisa emailing me on a Venus Jupiter conjunction. And then that keeps recurring at important times in our relationship.
- [124:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, very well put. Yeah, yeah.
- [125:01]
B
All right, so let's move on to I mentioned. Yeah, I guess I already mentioned it. So we don't have to like show the charts. But I was impressed by the Charlie Kirk one and the Zoran Mamdani one recently were just really impressive where it's like, let me see if I have those charts. Actually, I do have those charts. Okay, so here's Charlie Kirk, who famously was born October 14, 1993, with a Mercury at 16, Scorpio conjunct, Mars at 12, Scorpio and Pluto at 14. And he famously was known for going around college campuses and debating politics with college students, which was fitting in terms of that conjunction. But then he was assassinated in September of 2025. And then the following month, I think it was on his birthday, what would have been his 32nd birthday. Trump awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which is like the Highest. Let me pull up the chart. The highest civilian honor, basically, that you can receive in the United States, October 14, 2025. And my point here is that look at what was happening in the sky at that time. Mercury was at 11 degrees of Scorpio, conjunct Mars at 15 Scorpio in the sky. So there was, like, this perfect repetition of his natal Mercury Mars conjunction happening in the sky at the time that he posthumously received the highest civilian recognition that a person in the United States could possibly receive. So this is an example of what I call posthumous astrology, which I want to do an episode on, because I find it really fascinating. But a person's birth chart continues to work after they die, especially at important moments in which they come up again, because the birth time, it's like a signature in time that echoes through time as long as that person's memory still lives.
- [127:12]
A
Yep, it sure does.
- [127:14]
B
Yeah. So that is fascinating. And then, by contrast, recently, this is.
- [127:21]
A
The New York mayoral election. Yeah, yeah.
- [127:24]
B
Which. Which just happened. So this is. And I've only read his name in print, actually. I don't watch, like, cable news. I haven't heard it pronounced. I think it's Zoran Mamdani. Right? Yeah. So he was born October 18, 1991. So completely different year than Charlie Kirk two years earlier. And he has Mercury at 3 degrees of Scorpio, conjunct Mars at 0 degrees of Scorpio. So he also has a Mercury Mars conjunction, although it's interesting because it's a night chart in his case, whereas it's a day chart in Charlie Kirk's case. And he just won in the past week, the New York mayor race and became the mayor of New York. Do you know what day that was? This was just, like, days ago, basically.
- [128:15]
A
It was Tuesday, I believe.
- [128:18]
B
Okay, what day is that? Because Today's Sunday the 4th. 4th. Okay, so here's the 4th, because Mars changed signs that day on November 4th. So November 4th, 2025, Mars moves into zero degrees of Sagittarius, and it's in this conjunction with Mercury at 5 degrees of Sagittarius. And this is actually more important because Mercury several days later would slow down and station retrograde, which is what it's doing right now as we're recording this on November 9th. Here. I'll put the chart for now. This is now where Mercury is stationing retrograde right now at 6 Sagittarius. And Mars is gonna come up and conjoin it over the course of the next week. But it means that he also had this natal signature of Mercury Mars. And then he just had this crucial turning point in terms of his life and career in becoming the mayor of one of the biggest cities in the United States States under the same conjunction that basically replicates his birth chart. And it's weird because it's almost replicating the same sequence and angular distance with Mars natally at 0 and Mercury at 3. And then here it's like Mars is at 0 and Mercury's at 5. And then over the next few days, it would close that distance. Okay, there we go. So November 4th, here it is. For those watching the video version again, just Mars changes signs and moves into Sagittarius at zero. Sagittarius conjoining Mercury at five. But Mercury's slowing down to station retrograde. So it's one of those instances again where one of the planets stationing really emphasizes it and raises the significance of the conjunction which is important for Mercury conjunct Mars. Because Mercury conjunct Mars happens pretty frequently, like once a year at least. But Mercury stationing retrograde conjunct Mars does not happen as frequently. And therefore it raises the importance of this conjunction for him. And therefore this conjunction which happens once a year, let's say this is arguably and certainly gonna be one of the most important of those conjunctions of his life, of coinciding with the week he became mayor of New York City.
- [130:36]
A
Yeah.
- [130:38]
B
So I just think that's a fascinating example. Cause it's two people from extremely different ends of the political spectrum born two years apart, but both of them with Mercury Mars conjunctions, and around the same few month time period, both of them are thrust into the spotlight and become national figures basically in the news reporting today. And I know, I don't know, five or ten years from now, that's not gonna be as important. But right now, for those of us living at this point in time, in the last few, like, this is a very compelling example of two people that have been plastered all over the news for months now as we've been having these successive conjunctions of Mercury and MarsThese2 conjunctions right next to each other due to Mercury slowing down and stationing retrograde. Yeah, yeah. All right, so that's an example. That brings me to another example of that that I want to mention of another Mercury Mars, one that's more clear and relevant. And that's the birth chart of Edward Snowden. We have a time chart for Edward Snowden. And I've always used him as an example because he was born with Gemini rising and Mercury at 10 degrees of Gemini conjunct Mars at 24 degrees of Gemini. So they're conjunct by sign and Mercury's applying to that conjunction with Mars. And he was famous because in what was like 2013, 2014, he was a tech guy who worked for the US government. And then he famously disclosed that the US government was spying on network communications, American citizens. Well on American citizens and people around the world, basically through monitoring of the Internet and of phones and basically everything through these vast networks that the public didn't know about. And him leaking that he became known as a leaker or somebody that leaked something was very fitting in terms of Mercury Mars as an aspect. But it turns out that what I found is that when that happened, there was this series of Mercury Mars conjunctions that was happening around that time that really tied in with his story very closely. This was all happening between January and August of 2013. So let me do trying to decide if I should. Maybe I'll do a bi wheel just to keep his natal chart relevant. So the point that I wanted to make with this example is that Snowden and I was reading up in his biography and refreshing myself on it because it's been 12 years now since all of this happened. But early in 2013, Snowden started getting annoyed with the US government and not liking what he was seeing and started formulating the idea of leaking things I think starting in January and February. And Mercury we can see in the transits. You can see the transits, right?
- [133:59]
A
Yep.
- [134:00]
B
Okay, so Mercury moved into Aquarius and joined Mars there at 19 degrees of Aquarius around January 18th.
- [134:09]
A
Oh wait, wait, no, I can't, I can't switch it over.
- [134:12]
B
Okay, well let me know.
- [134:14]
A
Yeah, no.
- [134:16]
B
All right, so here's Mars at 19 degrees of Aquarius in mid January of 2013. And here's Mercury moving into Aquarius in the middle of that month. So basically there was a succession because of retrogrades that year of Mercury Mars conjunctions that were replicating his natal Mercury Mars conjunction during the course of the year. And the co presence kicks off in mid January when Mercury moves into Aquarius with Mars. And then the first conjunction happens exactly around here around February of 2013. And then Mercury and Mars continue to be co present over the course of the next month and into March. Somewhere in there, from what I understand, Snowden made the decision to start gathering all of the data in order to leak it. And he started gathering it up during the course of that spring, basically sort of covertly amassing all of this information with the Future plan to leak it to the press. And then eventually so Mercury and Mars keeps moving. There's a Mercury retrograde. So Mercury falls back into Pisces while Mars moves on and goes into Aries. And then Mercury catches up with Mars again in the May time frame. And then there's this long co presence between Mercury and Mars in May. And this is when Snowden leaks the starts leaking the files basically to reporters. And this begins the entire Snowden thing in May of 2013 and June of 2013. Do you remember all that? Yep, yep. The Mercury Mars copresence.
- [136:02]
A
And he's turning 30 of course in June as well, right?
- [136:06]
B
Yeah. So the Mercury Mars co presences and conjunctions are coinciding with him making the decision, gathering the data, leaking the data and then eventually he flees. And over the summer there's this long drawn out drama about him getting stuck in transit and seeking asylum. And it coincides with this Mars retrograde during the course of the summer in June. And June is basically when he gets stuck in an airport for most of the summer. Mercury stations retrograde here around June 26th, 27th and then it retrogrades back to early Cancer where Mars catches up to it and moves from Gemini to cancer July 13. Then Mercury eventually stations direct while conjunct Mars in the mid to late July. And then eventually by August, Mercury gets into LEO and breaks the sign based co presence with Mars completely and moves on on its own. And it's in August when Russia grants him asylum and he moves there where he's still there to this day, what like 12 years later. So the entire, it's like this unfolding of a sequence of events that's playing out with Mars degree based conjunctions and sign based conjunctions over the course of the first eight months of 2013. And it's because it's perfectly replicating his natal Mercury Mars conjunction of, of leaking something or of releasing information or secrets, let's say to the press that the US government didn't want released.
- [137:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's wild. It's gonna be interesting to see what Uranus in Gemini does in his life.
- [137:50]
B
Okay, yeah, that's true. It's also his Uranus opposition. We'll see. All right, so that's important though because it's kind of similar to your example, right, with like a retrograde where retrogrades can extend these recurrences over a much longer period of time than they would otherwise have. And so that creates a unique class of things that elevates the importance.
- [138:16]
A
Yeah, it really sort of Draws out and extends the experience of the recurrence. Yeah. What we were saying about the. The Mars retrogrades in Gemini during the Civil War and the Second World War, or the whole thing with Kurt and Courtney prior to them dating, there being a previous Venus Jupiter, when they're just flirting during the Venus retrograde and then Venus goes direct, makes another conjunction. That's when they actually start dating. So there's all that kind of stuff that draws these things out and is worth focusing on.
- [138:51]
B
On, Right, Totally. Okay. So I'm trying to think of where we should go next and what we haven't covered. I know you had a really good example with Venus Williams. Right. Would this be a good time to introduce that?
- [139:04]
A
Yeah, let's bring in Venus Williams.
- [139:06]
B
Okay.
- [139:08]
A
So Venus and Serena need no introduction while they're both tennis players. They're sisters and they're tennis players. They're born just over a year apart and Venus is the older sister. And Venus was already like a rising tennis champion. And then Serena came on the scene at 17 and really dazzled people. And today Serena's record sort of far outshines Venus's. Although Venus was, you know, no, no, slouch and was very impressive.
- [139:46]
B
Right.
- [139:48]
A
Go ahead.
- [139:49]
B
It was like Venus was the older sister who. They were both raised and trained together by their father and mother to play tennis and to become world champion tennis players. But Venus was the older sister who was able to start competing first and then Serena was the younger sister that came up afterwards. And then they started battling each other for the top spot as the top 10 the of tennis player in the world. And ultimately Serena kind of edged out Venus. It seems like.
- [140:18]
A
Yeah, I'm not a big, like, tennis, you know, follower, but I am, I've always been interested in their charts. But Serena, I believe, has something like 23 Grand Slam wins. And Grand Slam meaning you win like all the major tournaments in a given year. So she's done that 23 times. Whereas Venus did that, what, like twice? Three, five times. Sorry, she did. Venus had five Grand Slams and the, the. I just want to double check that fifth. When. Fifth Wimbledon singles crown. And her seventh major singles. Okay. Is only the second time that she defeated Serena in a Grand Slam final. So basically. Sorry, I'm just getting lost in a bit of the tennis scores. Venus is the older sister. Serena is really rising up and overshadowing her. But there's this one last Wimbledon final that Venus does beat Serena. The fact that Serena is really ascendant and is outshining her and it's sort of. It's. It's the crowning glory for Venus in terms of her own record. So this is the Wimbledon game. In 2008, Venus beat Serena 7 to 5 and 6 to 4 to defend her title and capture a fifth Wimbledon singles crown. It was only the second time Venus defeated Serena in a Grand Slam final. And this was Venus's finest final singles major. So last time she played the singles major, effectively the peak book end of her Grand Slam singles career. And.
- [142:04]
B
What is the technical example? It's a Mars Saturn conjunction.
- [142:08]
A
Oh, yes. I'm sorry, I didn't get lost in the tennis court because I want to get the details right, but you get the idea. I mean, it really is like this sort of this last hurrah for the older sister to beat the younger sister. So Venus was born with Mars Saturn conjunct in Virgo. And on the day of the game, Mars was again conjunct Saturn in Virgo.
- [142:29]
B
Nice. Okay, I like this also because when I was using Serena's chart in the fifth house example, and actually I was focused on Serena's chart, but this is Venus's chart. And Venus has Libra rising. Sagittarius is the third house of siblings, and the ruler of the third house of siblings is Jupiter, which is in the twelfth house of enemies. And even though they're not like, like enemies, I think it's amazing that her sister became her primary competition in a way. And this event that you're talking about, the Mars Saturn conjunction, was happening at 4 and 5 degrees of Virgo. In the actual chart itself, Mars is at 2 Virgo and Saturn's at 4. But they're conjoining her natal Jupiter, which is the ruler of the third house of siblings. And it's amazing that this was the, you know, the try. This is her triumphing over her sister in that instance.
- [143:26]
A
Yeah. But what's even funnier given what you just said, three hours after they played this match, they teamed up in a doubles match and won the doubles Wimbledon competition against two other tennis players. So Venus beat Serena, but then, of course, like your classic William sister situation. Yeah, they were adversaries. They fought to win, they played to win. And then they came together as a team and beat the other doubles and won that category. Yeah, that also accounts for that. Jupiter.
- [143:56]
B
Yeah, there's other transits going on as well. It's like one of the things goes without saying, but I guess is worth saying at this point, which applies to all of our examples, the presence of the recurrence transit is Obviously not the only thing going on there. We can see from other transits. There's other ways of approaching that. This was a very important day for her. It's like the sun is conjoining her midheaven. Exactly. Venus is conjoining her, Mercury almost exactly. She's having a natal lunar return in Leo. Mercury's conjoining the ruler of her ascendant almost exactly. It's like she has a lot of very important transits that are going on. It's just that there's this one transit that you otherwise might overlook of the fact that fact that Mars and Saturn in the sky just happened to be repeating the same exact combination that they were in on the day that she was born.
- [144:52]
A
Yep. She had just turned 28. And 28 is always a nodal half return, which you can see there as well. But yeah, indeed, it's the whole picture. There's a lot of stuff going on at once. But that recurrence is very clear. And it points toward this being a really important game for Venus, you know, relative to her career, relative to even the friendly rivalry with her little sister. It's sort of the last great hurrah on her end.
- [145:21]
B
Nice. That's brilliant. Really good example. So I didn't originally tie these together, but this is a perfect time to bring in one of my Jupiter Neptune examples, which is, weirdly, it's Jada Pinkett Smith.
- [145:38]
A
So let me keep Will Smith's wife's name out of your damn mouth. No, sorry.
- [145:48]
B
You're incorrigible. So here is the birth chart of Jada Pinkett Smith. And this seems like. It's like completely out of left field, so I understand. Just stay with me for a few moments and we'll see. I'll bring this around. So this is Jada Pinkett Smith. She was born September 18, 1971 at 12:38pm in Baltimore, Maryland, with 3 degrees of Sagittarius rising. So her ascendant's at 3 degrees of Sagittarius. And she has Jupiter conjunct Neptune very close to the ascendant that was rising over the eastern horizon at the moment that she was born, with Jupiter at 0 degrees of Sagittarius and Neptune at 0 degrees of Sagittarius. In fact, Neptune is at 040 degrees of Sagittarius and Jupiter's at 058. So they're extremely, extremely close conjunction at the moment of her birth, but also rising over the eastern horizon on the ascendant at that moment. So, weirdly, I noticed this Weird repetition that happened in her life just a few years ago during what is. Is probably one of the more notable things that has happened in her life, which is that a few years ago, Will Smith did a movie where he played the father who trained Venus and Serena Williams. And then he won an Oscar for that role. But that night at the Oscars, famously, the host who was the comedian, Chris Rock, came out and he made a joke about Will Smith's wife and her hair, that she had a shaved head. And he made a joke about Jada Pinkett Smith. And that night there was a very close Jupiter Neptune conjunction that was happening in the sky that was replicating Jada Pinkett Smith's natal Jupiter Neptune conjunction. And at first it seemed like when Chris Rock made the joke, Will Smith was laughing. But then the camera cuts away, and then it cuts back, and suddenly he's going up on the stage. People speculate after looking at his wife, who was offended by the joke. And he goes up on the stage and he hits. He slaps Chris Rock. And then it creates this entire firestorm and this entire really difficult moment after he assaults Chris Rock. Because then later that night, Will Smith goes on to win the Oscar. But he gets up and accepts. Accepts the award. But he cries. He's in tears because he realizes that he's kind of ruined the moment in some ways. It was otherwise a high point of his career, but it kind of gets marred by having just assaulted this comedian basically in what he says is partially defense of his wife. So there's obviously a lot of different things going on with that story. But for some reason, it also became a very important turning point for Jada Pinkett Smith, because then a lot of the commentary and stuff was about their relationship and whether they were dysfunctional and all these other things. And I thought it was very interesting that for some reason it was partially a replication for her of that Jupiter Neptune conjunction.
- [149:03]
A
Yeah, very much. If I'm not mistaken, the hair situation. It's not that her head is shaved. She has a condition. Right. Alopecia or something like the hair or. I don't know too much about it, but my understanding it's a medical condition. It isn't merely that she chose to cut her hair short. And that was part of the sensitivity.
- [149:23]
B
Right. I'm glad you said that. That's a really good point. Because that actually probably maybe that ties in the natal component for her, where it's like a Jupiter Neptune conjunction on the degree of her ascendant and the ascendant of the first House can sometimes relate to. To a person's body and physical appearance. So maybe that's part of why this was somehow relevant for her. Let me put the actual transit chart up and make sure you can see it. Where that night, it was March 27, 2022. Jupiter was at 20 degrees of Pisces, conjunct Neptune at 23 degrees of Pisces. And those conjunctions don't happen very often at all, right?
- [150:02]
A
No, no, no. Every 14 years. 14 years.
- [150:09]
B
Okay.
- [150:09]
A
Yeah. So, yeah, no, it's. It's. It's. It's. It's a brilliant example. And yeah, it's. It's very much like that's how it all came about. It wasn't, you know, it's. It's one thing if you make fun of someone's haircut, the haircut will grow back, but it was more sort of, you know, what effect.
- [150:27]
B
What.
- [150:28]
A
It was effectively body shaming, I guess. But, yeah. Crazy night at the Oscars, right?
- [150:35]
B
Well, and it was like, that was, you know, part of their defense is, is they said, like, that they tried to say that it was due to her sensitivity over body shaming and will not wanting her to feel that way. And then they tried to claim also that Chris Rock had been maybe harassing her for years. But then it was like. But then also everyone was like, but you don't assault a comedian for a joke. And there's no good defense of that, basically, is where I think most people came down in the end.
- [151:07]
A
And the other thing we learned is that Chris Rock's last name is very well earned because he just stood there like a rock and took it. So, yeah, Chris Rock, indeed.
- [151:16]
B
Yeah, he did show remarkable restraint. So anyways, that is a weird one that ties in because, of course, he then won the Oscar for the movie, which with Venus and Serena Williams. And I think they were actually there at the time or they were watching or something. So there's a lot of weird tension and everything else.
- [151:38]
A
Very excellent segue, though, Chris. Very impressive. Thank you.
- [151:41]
B
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Well, that's why we didn't really finalize our list for sequence of things, but I thought we would find it as we went by finding the examples that are appropriate as we go.
- [151:54]
A
Yep.
- [151:56]
B
All right. Largely, we'll see how it goes. What the rest is small E working. What kind of example do we need that we haven't filled in yet? I guess I have a quick one with Amelia Earhart. This one is cool because I've looked at her chart for a long time, but I Was looking at it recently for the fifth house example because she has this Mars Jupiter conjunction, just Taurus rising and Mars conjunct Jupiter in Virgo in the fifth whole sign house. And I was kind of associating that with the fifth house is where you have fun and you find pleasure in things. And I think Mars conjunct Jupiter is partially enjoying being adventurous and risk taking and things like that. And Amelia Earhart famously was a woman very early in the history of aviation that was setting records for flights at different points early in the history of aviation. But what I found is that when she got her pilot's license, there was a Mars Jupiter conjunction happening in the sky that was replicating her natal Mars Jupiter conjunction.
- [153:09]
A
Fascinating.
- [153:10]
B
Pretty good. Yeah.
- [153:12]
A
Yep.
- [153:14]
B
And then do you remember what I'm trying to remember all the records and stuff that she set?
- [153:22]
A
Oh, I mean, there's a whole litany of. I mean, when, you know, she died trying to circum Navigate the globe. But there were a bunch of achievements. I have a book on her somewhere I can look.
- [153:37]
B
Well, here's the transits just to like confirm roughly my argument. So here's The Mars at 23 degrees of Libra, conjunct Jupiter at 15 degrees of Libra. So it's like coming off of that conjunction that would have been forming then and would have gone exact as she's like building up to in training and getting ready to like to do this major thing to get her flight license. But I just loved seeing the repetition of that then at such a crucial moment where she gets that license and then she immediately like starts using it in really impressive ways.
- [154:17]
A
Yeah.
- [154:19]
B
All right, so that was a good one. Moving on, other examples. An adjacent one, actually. So we just did Mars Jupiter. An adjacent one is one you found, which is Richard Nixon.
- [154:33]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. Another Mars Jupiter.
- [154:35]
B
So this is a good one because it shows a really important point, just technically that I meant to mention, which is the sign boundaries. So Nixon was born January. I'll let you take the example. I just wanted to make the point that he was born January 9, 1913. Mars is at 29 degrees of Sagittarius and Jupiter is at 1 degree of Capricorn. So there's a sign boundary there, but they're just like 2 degrees apart. And in the sky, those two planets would be almost literally right on top of each other, regardless of the sign boundary. And I found a number of examples where even if they're in different signs, if they're still relatively close, especially depending on what planets we're Talking about the alignment is still true because functionally in the sky those two planets are right next to each other as stars, even if it's across a sign boundary. So I did want to state that and make that clear. Where both frameworks matter, the zodiacal framework and the sign based co presences matter. And we've seen several instances of, of the conjunctions being in effect for the entirety of the sign based conjunction or co presence, even when one planet's very early in the sign and one planet's very late. But the degree based alignments also matter with some standard orbs of let's say 7 degrees or something like that, give or take, still matter across sign boundaries as well. In this instance you're about to show a very great example of it is a Mars Jupiter conjunction in the birth chart of Richard Nixon.
- [156:09]
A
Yeah, yeah, we'll have another one soon with Michael Jackson and his Jupiter Neptune in adjacent signs. But yeah, it's a very close Mars Jupiter, despite the fact that there are different signs. And when Nixon was elected president In November of 1968, there was a Mars Jupiter conjunction happening in virgo in Nixon's first house.
- [156:33]
B
So this was November 6, 1968, I believe.
- [156:38]
A
So is that what's on the note here?
- [156:41]
B
Here it is. So I've put the transit chart up as long as you can see it. So we see. That's incredible. So it's to the degree Mars is at 28 degrees of Virgo, conjunct Jupiter at 28 degrees of Virgo. So the day he was elected was an exact conjunction of those planets. Yeah, that's repeating a natal recurrence of a natal conjunction that's only literally like 2 degrees away with Mars at 29 and Jupiter at 1 Capricorn.
- [157:09]
A
Exactly, yeah. And this was a comeback for him. He had lost the election to John F. Kennedy eight years earlier. So there is an element of rising back up. It's Pluto along with Mars and Jupiter in that recurrence. And so that's coming into play.
- [157:29]
B
Right, and he thought he was finished after losing to Kennedy in the 1960 election, right?
- [157:34]
A
Yeah, he absolutely thought. Well, he ran for governor in 62 and lost. And that's when he told the press they wouldn't have Nixon to kick around anymore. And he thought he was finished or at least he gave people the impression he was finished. Some people thought he never thought he was finished. But yeah, it's, it's, it's. So there is this element of like coming back from nothing, coming back from losing. And it's A Mars. It's a Mars Jupiter conjunction. The transit is Mars Jupiter with Pluto, whereas in his natal chart, he is Mars Jupiter, opposite Pluto. So you're. There's even. There's this extension of, you know, Pluto does find its way. You know, I know we're only talking about conjunctions in this podcast, but you see this happen sometimes too, where. Yeah. You know, a triple planet combination will be a conjunction of two opposite a third, and then something like this, those same three planets come together. So there's an excuse.
- [158:31]
B
Go ahead and mention that this is a good excuse for that digression briefly, that you pay attention to when there's an alignment of, let's say, a conjunction, that sometimes conjunctions and oppositions can be relevant as well, right?
- [158:48]
A
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There's some other good ones like Frida Kahlo's death chart and things like that. Different combinations of two planets conjunct opposite another one that's opposite. And then you could. On a transit chart, you might have those same three planets, but the ones conjunct where it was opposite in the nativity and vice versa.
- [159:08]
B
So, yeah, this is an injury chart. Her injury chart as well. You saying that she was born with a Mars Uranus conjunction. Very close.
- [159:16]
A
That's the one I met. Thank you. Yeah.
- [159:18]
B
So she was born with a Mars Uranus conjunction in her sixth house natally, and then the day of her terrible bus accident that altered her life was a Mars Uranus opposition.
- [159:29]
A
Correct. Yeah. Thank you.
- [159:30]
B
Okay. So the principle, to extrapolate the principle, really, even though we're artificially limiting it and maybe in some sense hobbling the technique in order to make it more compelling for the purpose of this. But the more advanced levels of the technique is you could take it to when a person has a natal signature in the chart of, let's say, a conjunction, then the recurrence of not just that conjunction between those two planets, but also sometimes oppositions between those two planets can be important as well.
- [160:00]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. You see that a lot. You know, like for instance, right now, Saturn's making a conjunction to Neptune. But I'm having clients who were born in 1980 who have Saturn Square, Neptune, and you can see how the upcoming Saturn Neptune conjunction still lights up their Natalie Square because there is a relationship between those two planets. There are a lot of different variants on what you can do with this. So, yeah, I thought it was worth pointing out, since Pluto, this is a reasonably simple one. Nonetheless.
- [160:29]
B
Remind me to do Biden next then, because that'll be the one example where we'll demonstrate what we were talking about of other aspects besides the conjunction.
- [160:38]
A
Sounds good. Okay, so yeah, Nixon was born with Mars conjunct Jupiter opposite Pluto. And when he's elected, all three of those planets are conjunct in his first house.
- [160:49]
B
Got it. So that was not the only Mars Jupiter conjunction that was important for him though, Right?
- [160:56]
A
Right. There's another one that happens in 1973, April 6, 1973, there's a conjunction in Aquarius. And this is the day that his, his attorney, John Dean, who has been sort of doing all the dirty work behind the scenes with Watergate on Nixon's behalf. John Dean starts cooperating with the Watergate investigators because there's an investigation going on.
- [161:28]
B
And this scandal has broken out and it's been going on for how long now?
- [161:34]
A
The Watergate break in was about nine months before this. And the burglars have already been to trial and been convicted. And then one of the burglars has told the judge that they, what's the word when you lie in court? They perjured them. Say he, they perjured themselves by covering up, you know, the real reasons for the breakup. And right as that's happening, John Dean, who's, who really was sort of like a major player in this whole cover up until, up until this point, he starts cooperating with the investigators, which is the beginning of the cracks happening in Nixon's own staff. And within a couple of weeks, Dean and two of Nixon's closest aides will all be fired. And the beginning of the really unraveling, you can say this moment when Dean is on April 6, when this recurrence happens, the Mars Jupiter, this is the first thread being pulled that's gonna tear apart the Nixon administration over Watergate. This is the first thing that goes wrong that really is gonna lead to Nixon being hurt. Dean winds up giving testimony on television.
- [162:45]
B
So it's like Nixon is protected in many ways, even though this whole thing has become a firestorm. But all of a sudden on this conjunction, his lawyer flips on him. And this is the beginning of the end of Nixon's presidency in really tangible ways. It's interesting that this Mars Jupiter conjunction at 7 degrees of Aquarius, that's exact this day takes place in his sixth house. And it's like somebody that worked for him, it's people that worked for him. His lawyer that flips on him and that's the beginning of the end.
- [163:13]
A
Yeah, his lawyer flips on him and then the two guys, his two right hand men, Ehrlichman and Haldeman he has to fire them, too. So he's really like, like, he's like. This leads to him having none of the people he's been trusting, you know, and, and confiding in up until this point. They're, they're suddenly, they're gone. So, you know, everyone else is sort of more to. More. More remote to him. And, and, you know, he doesn't, he's. He's suddenly without his, his sort of his security team, the. The people who've kept him safe.
- [163:50]
B
So that really does bring up something we're seeing over and over again. But it's worth just mentioning for a moment that the house that the recurrence takes place in often seems to play a major component in describing the quality and the nature of the event that occurs at the recurrence. And it should be obvious it's pretty straightforward because those two planets are transiting that house in the person's chart at that time. So of course they're going to be bringing up, up in his instance, like sixth house topics of those that work for you. But it's worth stating as an additional interpretive principle for how you interpret these things. Yeah, yeah. So this is the beginning of the end, and then eventually Nixon ends up having to resign and be the first president in history to resign as president in disgrace for Watergate. And this was the turning point.
- [164:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [164:44]
B
Nice. All right, well, those are two amazing. Literally Mars Jupiter conjunction. And you have literally the day of Nixon's becoming president, basically at least winning the election. And then you have the day that he would start his downfall to lose the presidency. In some ways.
- [165:04]
A
That's right.
- [165:05]
B
Brilliant. All right, good example.
- [165:08]
A
Thank you.
- [165:09]
B
You.
- [165:10]
A
So Biden.
- [165:12]
B
Biden. Thank you for reminding me. Okay, so here's the birth chart of Joe Biden. And he was famously born on November 2, 1942.
- [165:21]
A
November 20. November 20.
- [165:24]
B
November 20, 1942, at 8:30am in Scranton, Pennsylvania with Sagittarius rising. And he has this Saturn Neptune conjunction on the descendant with Uranus.
- [165:35]
A
Saturn. Uranus, Saturn.
- [165:37]
B
Sorry, I'm starting to get tired and my mind's starting to. So he has Uranus at 2 degrees of Gemini and Saturn at 9 degrees of Gemini. Conjunct the descendant at around, let's say, 3 degrees of Gemini. So that Saturn Neptune conjunction's in his seventh house, and you had noticed a major recurrence transit that happened in the late 1980s when he ran for president. And Saturn and Neptune conjoined in the sky. Right.
- [166:09]
A
Saturn, Uranus. Saturn, Uranus.
- [166:12]
B
I'm talking about Saturn Neptune. Yeah, Saturn Neptune is very. I'll let you take the example from here.
- [166:20]
A
Okay. I'll try not to say Saturn Neptune. So. Yeah, Joe. So Saturn Uranus conjunctions only happen every 44 years or so. So there's one in 1942, 43, when. And Biden's born at the end of 42. And then the next conjunction happens in 1987 to early 88. And during that period in 87, 88, there's basically, I mean, two things go terribly wrong in Biden's life. He announced his candidacy for the presidency in June of 87. So by this point, he'd been a congressman first, you know, starting in 72, and now he was a senator and he wanted to run for president. So he announces his candidacy in June of 87, and he's already having the Saturn Uranus recurrent. Saturn and uranus are about 8 degrees apart. 7. 8 degrees apart at this point. But about two weeks, two. Sorry. Three months into his campaign in September of 87, on the September 17, 87, Biden is forced to admit that he plagiarized some of his work when he was in law school. And this within a few days. This is a big scandal. He has to withdraw his bid for president. And this probably means that poor Joe Biden will never get to be president. He's missed his chance and he'll never get another one. I'm kidding, of course. But then after this, something else terrible happens. He is diagnosed with having an aneurysm, and he undergoes two surgeries in early 1988 while the conjunction is still happening. One in February of 1988 and the next in May of 1988. So, yeah, you know, that's. That's sort of the. The extent that. Sorry, the second one is like 5-4-88, if you're looking for an exact date.
- [168:21]
B
Yeah.
- [168:22]
A
Just so much, you know. Yeah.
- [168:24]
B
It's amazing that this one's happening in his first house and his rising sign, so it's like so prominent. But this is literally the next Saturn Uranus conjunction after his birth, over 40 years earlier. And he has it and he runs for president, but he fails. He has to pull out of the race, and then he immediately has an aneurysm and a major medical issue at the same time.
- [168:51]
A
Yeah. It probably would have helped his political career if he had the aneurysm before the plagiarism was discovered. But either way, it ruined his shot at the presidency.
- [169:04]
B
Right, so you were talking about that example, and then when I was thinking about it, it immediately made me remember what happened when he did first get into office though, which is famously.
- [169:18]
A
What.
- [169:19]
B
Was the night of the presidential. The night of the US presidential election in 2008, when Joe Biden was elected vice president and Barack Obama was elected as president. There was famously an exact Saturn Uranus opposition at the time. Do I have the date there? 2008. Do you know the date?
- [169:44]
A
It'll be the fourth. It's a Tuesday.
- [169:47]
B
Yeah, November 4th. Okay, so here's the chart. So look at this. Saturn that day on November 5, 2008 was at 19 degrees of Virgo. And it's opposite to Uranus at 18 degrees of Virgo.
- [170:03]
A
Right on his midheaven. Right on his midheaven. I see too. That's angular, right?
- [170:08]
B
Yeah, because It's Midheaven's at 19 degrees of Virgo. So this is that principle you were talking about earlier, where sometimes if a person is born with a natal conjunction, in this instance he has Saturn and Uranus conjunct in his birth chart. It's not just the conjunctions that are important recurrences like that one in 1988 was 87 was a conjunction in his rising sign. But it's also the opposition's. In this instance, literally within 24 hours of him becoming vice president, there's a Saturn Uranus opposition exactly on his MCIC axis.
- [170:47]
A
Yeah, yeah, that works.
- [170:52]
B
I remember that at the time. Cause it was such a moment of having Saturn opposite Uranus and this sudden break from the past with Obama being elected. And yeah, I always associated with that Saturn Uranus opposition as being the main aspect that day. But it's fascinating that part of that was replicating Biden's own Saturn Uranus conjunction.
- [171:20]
A
Yeah, totally. And then of course that Uranus in Pisces, as we know, at inauguration two months later, Venus would be conjunct that Uranus and somewhat opposite that Saturn still. So that's also pulling into the reference we made earlier, talking about making good segues insofar as the Venus Uranus at Obama Biden's inauguration in 2009 being a sort of a counterpoint to Trump in 2025 with his Venus Saturn. But indeed in 2009, it's Venus Uranus basically opposite Saturn. So that really reinforces that mirror of the 2024, 25 result as well.
- [172:08]
B
Well, and look at his natal Venus, it's at like 28. So it's actually applying to an opposition with Uranus pretty closely. So that's almost in a way another example of that where he's born at the natal Venus Uranus opposition. And then there's a Venus Uranus conjunction when he is inaugurated VI vice president. And that is not the end of his story because of course, then we jump forward to January 20, 2001, which is inauguration day. And this is the day that Biden is inaugurated president. And on this day, Saturn is at 3 degrees of Aquarius in the sky, and it's applying to a square with Uranus at 6 degree of Taurus in the sky. So there's a very, very close Saturn Uranus square the moment he actually becomes president. So that's just absolutely uncanny. So he has just to summarize, he was born on a Saturn Uranus conjunction, he ran for president and had to drop out on a Saturn Uranus conjunction. He is elected vice president on a Saturn Uranus opposition, and then he becomes president on a Saturn Uranus square.
- [173:19]
A
Yep. And you know, in 2024, there was no Saturn Uranus configuration going on, so it didn't work out.
- [173:28]
B
Yeah. So it's like. Well, I mean, that's actually a whole interesting thing in itself because it was the Saturn in Pisces stations in his fourth actually ended up being really important for that. But. So this is one more or less example of this, because I was worried about the technique getting muddied and I deliberately restricted us to conjunctions. But the more advanced form of the technique can actually work like this, where the natal signature in the chart can set up a signature for all sorts of recurrences of other aspects between those two planets as being important at critical turning points in the life. And at some point we'll have to do a follow up on that where we go deeper or we can do a workshop on that or something to go into the more advanced application of the technique. But this is just to give people a taste of that.
- [174:26]
A
That's right. Yeah. There's all kinds of fantastic examples with other aspects that we could have included. And maybe we will in a follow up.
- [174:36]
B
Yeah. Let us know in the YouTube comments if you'd like to see us do a follow up on the more advanced things. And we'll see what people think if they want that. And then maybe we'll do a follow up.
- [174:46]
A
Oh, you gotta want this, people. No one else has given it to you.
- [174:50]
B
All right, I want to take another break. Okay. If you're really looking to deepen your studies of astrology, then I would recommend signing up for my Hellenistic astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology where I take people from basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts. There's over 100 hours of video lectures, plus monthly webinars and Q and A sessions. And then at the end of the course, you get a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me. If you pass the final written test, find out More information@theastrologyschool.com All right, we're back from break and this is going a little bit longer than I expected, as usual. Like, anytime I say something, it's going to be a little bit. It's called the Brennan constant, I think is what Austin called it after our last forecast is if I say it's going to be two hours, there's some equation that projects it out to be like three or four. But this feels really good.
- [175:46]
A
It's a Fibonacci exponential kind of thing. Yeah, right.
- [175:49]
B
There's a diagram of my head and a golden ratio being projected from it that's like chiseled in an ancient stone somewhere. So this is good though. This feels like important life's work contribution type thing that we're doing right now and introducing this to everybody and trying to lay a solid foundation for this technique to grow and flourish after this point. So I'm willing to do what it takes to make this good. And I think anybody who sticks with us and watches this, it's sort of like a self filtering mechanism. It's like those who are meant to get this information will receive it. And those who don't want to sit for a few hours to hear a workshop on one of the most amazing techniques ever that you've never heard of will not receive that information.
- [176:39]
A
That's it. Tom, Pete.
- [176:42]
B
All right, so one of the examples I want to get into is a really good one that you found that's an impressive new development of the technique that I thought was cool. Is the Beatles example of a Saturn Uranus conjunction.
- [176:59]
A
Yeah, I mean, two of the Beatles, Paul McCartney and George Harrison, born right around the same time as Joe Biden. Paul is a few months older than Joe and George is a few months younger than Joe. But they're both born with that same Saturn, Uranus and Gemini. Right.
- [177:17]
B
There's further setup because the full setup is like all four of the Beatles have a Saturn Neptune conjunction by co presence Saturn Uranus. Oh my God. Sorry. When I start getting tired, it's part of the long Covid for I do that. I'm just telling the audience that that's part of the thing I struggle with, is my mental Facilities start fading. All right, let me focus this because I want to be really clear on this example because it's so good. All four of the Beatles functionally were born on a Saturn Uranus conjunction in the 1940s. And two of them were born with the Saturn Uranus conjunction very close in their birth charts. But by sign, all four of the beetles have a Saturn Uranus conjunction. And the example is that just like Joe Biden, you said, because they were born with the same Saturn Uranus conjunction as Joe Biden in the 1980s when all four of them had their first Saturn Uranus conjunction return, they were inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame.
- [178:27]
A
Correct. The Beatles were inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame in January of 1988 when there was a Saturn Uranus conjunction in the sky. By this point, of course, John Lennon had been dead for over seven years. Ringo and John were born with Saturn and Uranus co present in Taurus. They have more like the Jupiter Saturn zodiacal conjunction with Uranus co president in taurus. But Paul McCartney and George Harrison.
- [178:57]
B
Let me show them. So who's the first one? Who's the first sign based one to start with? Who did you just mention?
- [179:01]
A
Ringo. Just start with Ringo and then John.
- [179:04]
B
Okay, so for those watching the video version, here's the birth chart of Ringo Starr, who was born with Saturn at 12 degrees of Taurus and Uranus at 24 degrees of Taurus in the third whole sign house. I know you're more focused on two of them in particular who come into conflict during the recurrence. But that's a, you know, still pretty close conjunction to me of Saturn at 12 and Uranus at 24. It's certainly a co presence by sign.
- [179:38]
A
Yeah, I mean, I certainly agree. And think about it. These are the Beatles. The Beatles sort of. That they're Central to the 1960s culturally. But the period of 1965-66 when Saturn and Uranus were opposite, it was a real sort of like that. That's a period where the Beatles really sort of shot ahead in terms of their use of, you know, recording technology and innovation. When they stopped touring and became a studio band. And also. And also when.
- [180:16]
B
Yeah, yeah, like a generation, generation defining talent and like a. And a shift in terms of music and ushering in that like era of, of rock and roll.
- [180:27]
A
Yeah, I mean, literally changing the culture with every little, you know, thing they did, you know, George Harrison picks up a sitar out of curiosity and suddenly sitars are, you know, a thing. And in Western music And a lot of things like that. So, yeah, really just having their being in the middle of the whole culture, you know, spurt and everything that's happening in that period.
- [180:55]
B
Right, so this is Ringo, born July 7, 1940, with Saturn at 12 Taurus and Uranus at 22 Taurus. And then the next one.
- [181:03]
A
24 Taurus.
- [181:04]
B
Yeah, 24. And the next one is Lennon.
- [181:06]
A
John Lennon, yeah.
- [181:08]
B
Okay, so this is John Lennon, born October 9, 1940, with Saturn at 13 Taurus and Uranus at 25 Taurus, again, still very co. Present. And if you looked at them up in the sky, those two planets at night would be. Well, you could see Saturn. Uranus can only be seen under certain conditions. But nonetheless, they would be right next to each other. Yeah. All right, so that's Lenin. And then the other two are. Here's George Harrison, who was born February 24, 1943, with Saturn at 5 Gemini and Uranus at 0 Gemini. So that's a much closer conjunction. We've now changed signs, but it's even closer in degree. And Then finally, the fourth beetle is a man named Paul McCartney, who was born June 18, 1942, with Saturn at 5 degrees of Gemini and Uranus at 1 degree of Gemini. So all of them have this Saturn Uranus conjunction. And then I just think, what is the date of their induction into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame?
- [182:12]
A
January. Sorry, I don't have the. Let me go to the document, Beatles.
- [182:20]
B
There it is. January 20, 1988.
- [182:23]
A
That's it.
- [182:24]
B
So I'm going to share it as a transit chart. And we see Saturn at 27 degrees of Sagittarius and Uranus at 28 degrees of Sagittarius. So like some of our earlier examples of faster moving inner planets, this is something all four of them share in common. And then it's very closely exact at this when they're inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, which is one of those, obviously they didn't need it, or they already had made a huge impact and whatever. But still, for many bands, this is a singular thing when you're, like, inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And it's a real, like, landmark moment. Typically in like a. Let's say, a musician's career.
- [183:14]
A
It is now, this was the third annual Rock and Roll hall of Fame. I mean, it was still a fairly new thing. Yeah, you know, they. They inducted Elvis or whoever in the first one. Bill Haley in the Comets and probably Buddy Holly and. And Little Richard, you know, by the second or third. But yeah, with the third, it's, it's. The Beatles are being inducted and of course John Lennon is dead by this point. But only two of the Beatles arrive on this evening. George, Ringo and Yoko Ono come to the Rock and Roll hall of fame, but Paul McCartney doesn't attend, which is very, you know, there were some legal battles still going on between the different Beatles and Paul didn't feel like going up and making a fake play of them being, you know, friendly at a time when they weren't. And there were all kinds of ironies in this. George Harrison enthusiastically participated. He had a new album out in the, in the past year called Cloud 9 and he was really sort of George Harrison usually was the Beatle who eschewed the, the Beatles. In his post beetle life. He, he didn't really like to talk about them or didn't. He didn't have the same kind of rosy, you know, rose colored view of the Beatle years that the other guys did. And, but for the Rock and Roll hall of Fame thing, he was very present and a real sort of participant and happy and, and what have you. Whereas Paul, who usually was the one who was more keen to like put on a happy front even if things weren't entirely happy behind the scenes and who was always enthusiastic about the Beatles and their legacy, he was the one who didn't feel right about participating for, you know, a variety of, of interpersonal reasons at the time. So there's even kind of like a role reversal between George and Paul when they're both having this. I mean, I mean to some extent they're all having the recurrence transit like you say. But, but since Paul and George are the Beatles who have them zodiacally very close in the conjunction, it really sort of sparks the hard feelings between the two of them, I guess. Right.
- [185:35]
B
So this was especially because the legal issue where Paul McCartney was in a legal battle with the others, this was like the worst their relationship was post the breakup of the Beatles anytime after and then even up till now because they would eventually patch things up.
- [185:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. When the Beatles broke up in 1970, they were, you know, really mad at each other. Paul sued the other guys, but eventually they worked it out. By 1973, 74, they were all friends. They had signed a legal document to end their partnership, so they weren't locked up that way and they became friends for a while. You know, they didn't need to worry about being in a band together, but they were friendly for a bit. But then things did go a little like John Lennon of course, was murdered in 1980. And then in the 80s there were some residual or new sort of legal issues that they were battling over. Yoko and of course was now in charge of John Lennon's estate. And that made things complicated. And so. Yeah, so this, this very specific period, 1987, 88, is the one period apart from when the Beatles actually broke up and you know, freshly were mad at each other. This is the one time like the hardest that the darkest it got between them, the roughest their relationship was in what were generally, you know, good post beetle years.
- [187:07]
B
Right. It's interesting just even just all of them having Saturn Uranus as a signature and just the instability of the group and the fact that their eventual breakup and demise would itself be such a legendary part of their entire story. Because the Beatles weren't actually together or famous for a very long amount of time when you added up. Right.
- [187:36]
A
Yeah, I mean they, they, they were incredibly prolific and productive. So it makes it seem like it was epic length. But from the first recording session to the last, it's, it's eight years. You know, Love Me do recorded in September of 1962 and Abbey Road finishes recording in August of 69. Sorry, seven years, not, not eight. Seven years from beginning to be beginning. Think of every single Beatles song you've ever heard or Beatles recording. And it was recorded in this very short seven year period of time. These days some bands take longer than seven years to release a follow up album. So it was really, you know, they did a lot in that short period of time.
- [188:18]
B
Yeah, that's crazy. I mean it just speaks to the cause. They also during that time went through a lot of different phases and eras and constantly reinventing themselves and pushing the limits or pushing the edge. I'm thinking about the nature of Saturn conjunct Uranus, but then also the inherent instability of that is that it's something that's hard to hold together with Saturn and Uranus so prominent in all of their charts.
- [188:49]
A
Yeah. I mean what's funny is during the Beatle years the four of them were always together. And so when they did break up, it really was like, like if you've ever had a romantic partner that you were just with constantly and then there's a breakup, it's like, like it goes from intense closeness to intense separation. But there was a lot about them that was Saturn Uranus. You know, they were countercultural and, and challenging the status quo. But to like real culture, counterculture type. They seemed kind of safe and manufactured. You know, they were, they were Always sort of like a polar opposite to. To whoever was. Was looking at them, you know, to. To. To rebellious for the real straight arrows and too straight for the really rebellious people in a way. And of course, I mean, just little things, you know, imagine. Imagine you get a new haircut and then the rest of the world wants to have your haircut.
- [189:52]
B
Well, that's what I'm thinking in terms of the Saturn Uranus conjunction and just being trendsetters and setting the standard for an entire generation and for an entire genre of rock music. I mean, you looking at this conjunction and them starting the Rock and Roll hall of Fame and then having two other years of inductees first, but then as soon as they could, basically inducting the Beatles into that as such genre defining. And the reason that there probably even was a Rock and Roll hall of Fame to begin with in some sense inducting them into that at that time. There's something about that that's really striking to me.
- [190:31]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's a really curious year to choose them. No doubt. And yeah, just the way it all played out with George, like I said, George being really involved and. And Keen and Paul being reluctant and. And a bit sour. It was kind of like they were taking on each other's role in that bit.
- [190:52]
B
Yeah. All right, I think that's good. Why don't we move on? Let me hit some.
- [191:00]
A
Do we go to. Do we go to Michael after we've been talking about Paul? Is that another segue going to the guy who owned their music at one point?
- [191:07]
B
Oh, right, yeah. I actually tried looking up that. That incident to see if that was around the same time, but it wasn't. Let's do Michael because then that'll go along well with the other one I found, which is Madonna.
- [191:20]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [191:23]
B
We don't have a confirmed time for Michael Jackson. I think we have to state from the outset. Right, Well, I mean, what do you use? I haven't looked at it.
- [191:32]
A
Yeah. What we do here. I'll pull it up. When he died, his nephew did say he spoke to Michael's mom and they got the birth time and it is 7:33pm with a Pisces rising. Pisces moon.
- [191:50]
B
But wasn't there 7:33pm 7:33pm There was.
- [191:57]
A
Another chart quoted by Basil Farington for 11:53pm that gave him Gemini Rise Rising.
- [192:04]
B
Right. That was the one I was just showing. So I just remember there was something in the Astro Data bank notes about the Pisces chart that still expressed a doubt of Skepticism about the.
- [192:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna swear by anything. I mean, I wouldn't find it hard to believe he was Pisces Rising. But yeah, it was when he died. I think his nephew went on Twitter or something like that, as my. As I recall.
- [192:29]
B
Right. Well, let's just say for the sake of this. I don't know. Cause I haven't looked it up or researched it in a long time. So I don't know.
- [192:36]
A
That's okay. Again, we don't have to swear by it, you know.
- [192:40]
B
No, I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's just for our purpose. It's not relevant. Cause we're just looking at his Jupiter Neptune conjunction where in his birth chart Jupiter was at 28 degrees of Libra and Neptune was at 2 degrees of Scorpio. So in the sky they were. Are very close together. Even though it's across a sign boundary.
- [192:58]
A
Yeah, yeah. And definitely the Michael Jackson example is also kind of a nice companion to the Steve Jobs one because it's another one of these examples where we look at the regular Jupiter Neptune conjunctions, every single one that Michael lived through. And much like Steve Jobs with Jupiter Uranus, for Michael, Jupiter, Neptune, the conjunctions sort of make these chapters of a book that you could, you know, if you wrote a book about Michael's life, you could start the sections at the different Jupiter Neptune transits and it would kind of make sense. So the first one, obviously he's. He's born. Yeah, he's born in 1958 and that's the conjunction. And then the first transit he has is in 1971. In 1971, Jupiter and Neptune come together in a conjunction in Sagittarius. And you know, while there are a few things that, that happen, the family moves to California, for instance, things like that. But the main thing for Michael, just the one takeaway, is that it's in 1971 that he makes his first solo TV appearance and his. And records his first solo single. And so it's the beginning, of course, Michael Jackson is eventually going to be a solo artist. The Jackson 5 and. And later the Jacksons. These are, you know, this is the group with his brother that helps him rise to stardom. But ultimately he's going to be just too big a star to be, you know, tied down to his brothers. And that starts to. That solo artist career starts in 1971. First he's on a Diana Ross TV special and he sings a song without his brothers being on stage or what have you. And then later that year, he releases his first solo single, a song called Got to Be There in October of 71.
- [194:59]
B
Here's the chart for that. On October 7, 1971. Neptune's at 1 degree of Sagittarius and Jupiter's at 2 degrees of Sagittarius.
- [195:08]
A
Right. Like I said. Yeah. There've been a lot of things in his life this year that signify that Jupiter, Neptune. But certainly breaking out as a solo artist is the single most important one. Right.
- [195:23]
B
Because that's one of the things about once we start getting into the slower moving outer planet ones is conjunctions like this are sometimes in effect for like a year. But certainly this one's very close by degree at the time when he records his first single.
- [195:38]
A
Yeah, exactly. And releases it. So then jumping ahead to January 27, 1984. On this day, Jupiter was conjunct Neptune at the beginning of Capricorn. They had just been conjunct. Jupiter's just past Neptune and Capricorn. It was on 1-27-84 that Michael was burned badly because of an accident that happened when he was taping a Pepsi commercial. His hair caught fire. And because of this accident, he wound up taking painkillers and basically beginning his, you know, the drug problem that would ultimately contribute to his passing in 2009. He had been very strictly antidrugged up until this point. But hey, as one does when you're a burn victim, you want painkillers. And one thing led to another.
- [196:34]
B
And what were the degrees again? The Internet cut out.
- [196:38]
A
Oh, Neptune was at 0. Capricorn and Jupiter was at 1. Capricorn.
- [196:44]
B
Okay, very close. Nice.
- [196:46]
A
Yeah.
- [196:47]
B
Okay, next.
- [196:48]
A
So then we jump ahead another 13 years to 1997. On February 13, 1997, 1:17am in Los Angeles, a baby nor named Prince. Michael Jackson the first was born. This was Michael Jackson's first of three children that he had with Debbie Rowe, his second wife. And it was sort of announced very suddenly. Now, Neptune and Jupiter were in different signs, but they Jupiter's on the day the kids born. Jupiter is at 5 Aquarius and Neptune's at 28 Capricorn. But this was all done, you know, with a lot of secrecy and the. Yeah, you know, the conjunction would have been within a few weeks before the birth. And it was one of these things, like no one knew a baby was coming until, like, the thing actually happened.
- [197:44]
B
Was this his first child?
- [197:46]
A
Yeah, his first child.
- [197:48]
B
Okay, got it.
- [197:50]
A
Yeah.
- [197:50]
B
All right, next.
- [197:53]
A
And then there's just one more. Is is the fact that 13 years after this, in 2009. Michael Jackson was declared dead on the 25th of June, 2009 at 2:26pm in Los Angeles. And Jupiter and Neptune were conjunct at 26 Aquarius.
- [198:12]
B
Like, exactly conjunct. Yeah, both of them at 26 Aquarius. That's crazy.
- [198:18]
A
Yeah, he really is like just Jupiter, Neptune again, much like Steve Jobs, where it's so. Like, we've almost just told the story of his life in a fairly complete way. I mean, okay, we didn't talk about Thriller or this or that, but a lot of those big markers, you can really see how they just sort of. Of outline the contours of his timeline.
- [198:42]
B
Sure, yeah. I mean, especially the accident under the Jupiter neptune conjunction in 84 that led him to start having to take painkillers. And then the recurrence in 2009 of that exact conjunction in his death. And the fact that he died partially through complications through some of the drugs that he was taking.
- [199:02]
A
Right, yeah, yeah. Well, he was. He was using the same drug that surgeons use, you know, to anesthetize people for surgery. He was using that, like, as a sleeping aid, which is insane. It's interesting. When he died, Pluto was at 1 degree of Capricorn, which is where that Jupiter Neptune conjunction had been when he got burned. So there's, you know, little things like that you can look at as well. But. But yeah, it. Basically, Michael, before the burning accident, never would have used a drug to help him sleep or anything like that. But then after the accident and the painkillers, it just, you know, he. He starts to. And of course, he's trying to. He's trying to keep up with being Michael Jackson. So he starts to use things to help him sleep, to help him be awake. The old Elvis, this strategy.
- [199:57]
B
Okay, yeah, that's really striking. And. Yeah, that he dies from a freak sort of medical accident through overdosing, basically, on drugs and painkillers.
- [200:09]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [200:11]
B
I noticed recently that they just dropped the first trailer for that new biopic that they're releasing of him, which is interesting. So there's gonna be a new resurgence about his life. So it'll be interesting to see how that goes and how they cover everything.
- [200:31]
A
Yep.
- [200:33]
B
Yeah. So an adjacent one. Cause Michael Jackson was born August 29, 1958, and Madonna, weirdly, was born very close to him. Right?
- [200:49]
A
Yeah. 12, 13 days earlier. Madonna, I think 13 days earlier. Because Madonna is 10 years minus two days older than me. Yeah, there she is. And it's funny. And then Prince is born, like, a few months before Madonna. You Know, so like all Those, the, the three biggest pop stars of the 80s were all born in that summer of 58 with that Jupiter Neptune.
- [201:12]
B
Yeah, exactly. That's what I was thinking. So Madonna has Jupiter at 26 Libra, conjunct Neptune at 2 degrees of Scorpio. And there were two main ones that I found about Madonna that I thought were really impressive how her life was tied into these Jupiter, Neptune conjunctions. There's basically like three or four of them. But the first one is that there was a series of conjunctions around 1984 and that was when she first became a big hit and released her first big album. That made her a worldwide sensation basically at that time, right?
- [201:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, that was when Like a Virgin came out. And the very first MTV Video Awards in September of 84 was when she was rolling around on the stage in a wedding dress and everyone was very shocked. And yeah, that was, that was an out of sign Jupiter Neptune conjunction. Neptune at the first MTV Video Awards in September of 84, Neptune was at 28 Sag and Jupiter at 3 Capricorn. So yeah, very much. All the whole Like a Virgin ascendancy to stardom. Because it did. She did. She became famous pretty, pretty fast with that one.
- [202:32]
B
When was that first MTV Video Awards?
- [202:35]
A
The, the first, the first MTV video awards were September 14, 1984. And it was like the shocking thing that she's wearing a wedding dress and singing the song in a wedding dress and then rolling around the floor in the wedding dress. The 80s, I gotta tell you, man.
- [202:54]
B
Of like. What was edgy? Edgy at the time, right?
- [202:58]
A
No, I mean, because I was, I was 16 when this is coming out. And I'm thinking, you know, the 1970s were just a few years ago. Why is this freaking people out? But for some reason it was, right?
- [203:11]
B
Well, yeah, and so I used her chart. What was it? Maybe it was like one of the Houses episodes. But I thought it was really interesting. How so? One of the things she got a lot of flack for earlier in her career was the use of some religious imagery or the perception of doing things that was like blasphemy or things like that or being accused of. And there's some debate about her time. I use this Virgo Rising chart where it has Mars in her ninth house in a day chart. And I think it's really solid. But back to your point, here at the MTV Music Awards we see Jupiter at 3 degrees of Capricorn, conjunct Neptune at 28 degrees of Capricorn. So it's a really interesting replication of her Natal Jupiter at 26 Libra and Neptune at 2 degrees of Scorpio. And that entire year basically is the year that Madonna blows up and becomes Madonna.
- [204:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I was in high school at the time and overnight all the girls were wearing Madonna hairstyle, Madonna clothes, fishnet everywhere. 15 year old girls in fishnet stuff. Yeah, it was 1984. A lot of hair gel. Yeah.
- [204:31]
B
Nice, nice. So jumping forward to the next conjunction which happened in 1997, January 9, 1997, that same month of that conjunction, just 10 days later, she won the Golden Globe for Best Actress for her role in the movie Evita. And this marked a major career high point for her and her highest critical acclaim as an actress, which was also coming just three months after the birth of her first child, which is also an important turning point. But we can see when she wins that Golden Globe that Jupiter's at 29 degrees of Capricorn conjunct Neptune, Neptune at 27 degrees of Capricorn.
- [205:16]
A
Yeah. Excuse me. The movie was still pretty new. It premiered in the US Christmas of 96. So it was still in theaters when she won that Golden Globe, I believe.
- [205:28]
B
Yeah. And that's kind of like the pinnacle of her 1990s acting career because I remember earlier in the 90s, you had a League of Their Own, the baseball movie with Geena Davis where she played a pretty significant role in that. But this is her winning like actual awards.
- [205:44]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, I, I don't think her, her acting career ever really topped this one, you know, in terms of acclaim or reviews or, or what have you. There was a movie when she was first becoming famous called Desperately Seeking Susan that was kind of popular, but she didn't, she wasn't going to win a Golden Globe for that. But a lot of her movies had been sort of hit and miss. Yeah, League of the Rome was a bigger, was more popular than some of her others. But, but yeah, this really did. She never got, you know, got higher with her acting career than what she did with Evita.
- [206:18]
B
Sure. Well, yeah, because I don't, I don't remember her doing many acting roles after this in like the 2000s. I don't. Do you remember any?
- [206:24]
A
No, no, she married, she married Guy Ritchie after this, the film director who did, you know, lock stock and two smoking barrels and things like that. But yeah, no, it's true. She actually, what she did do after Evita is the following year she made what I think is by far her best album, Ray of Light, which is just excellent. And you Know, I this from someone who had never been that into her music. You know, I liked some of her singles, but Ray of Light was a really solid work of. Of art, you know, like. Like, she really made a great, great album there.
- [207:02]
B
Right. Do you remember when it's funny that you mentioned Guy Ritchie and her getting together with them? Because that actually brings us to our next conjunction, where we jump to January of 2009. And unfortunately, in January of 2009, she gets divorced from Guy Ritchie. So Neptune's in early Aquarius, Jupiter's in early Aquarius, and Neptune is later on in aquarius at like 23. But this marked the finalization of that divorce for her, which is an important turning point. The conjunctions later that year bracketed the finalization of her adoption of her daughter, Mercy James. And she also had a major tour that made her the highest grossing tour by a solo artist at that time in 2009. So then finally we jump forward to the next conjunction, which is April 12, 2022. 12th, 2022. And this was the Jupiter Neptune conjunction in Pisces. And that year, the year of this conjunction, she released a major career retrospective album that was titled finally enough love 50 number ones. Yeah. So she does basically a career retrospective in this year of the Jupiter Neptune conjunction in Pisces, which I thought was brilliant because it kind of like bookends her career in this pretty significant and notable way, which began under a Jupiter Neptune conjunction.
- [208:43]
A
Yeah, well, certainly it took off under one. Yep.
- [208:47]
B
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [208:50]
A
Yeah. Well done, Madonna. Yeah.
- [208:54]
B
All right, where should we go from here? What conjunctions have we not covered? Or what alignments have we not covered that would be good to. That are in our research list.
- [209:05]
A
Well, you have the Charles Manson. Mars, Neptune.
- [209:10]
B
Yeah, Mars, Neptune. That would be a good one. Okay.
- [209:14]
A
Okay.
- [209:14]
B
So let me pull up Charles Manson's chart. I just found this. What's a little tricky. Of course, we're dealing with a noted murderer or people that instructed people to murder other people. I had used him. I think I mentioned him maybe in the fifth House example recently as a Mars Neptune conjunction in the fifth house. And I was really fascinated by that, partially because one of the things. Ways I was interpreting it before I looked at his recurrence transits was as somebody who. He started a cult. But it was like a cult of younger people. And you often find younger people in the fifth house. And that was part of how I was interpreting that, I think in one of the recent fifth House episodes. But then when I was researching this episode, I actually found that he responded a lot to Mars Neptune conjunctions at different points in his career. But maybe you can help to verify this for me because I don't want to do his entire chronology or something. But basically there were three conjunctions I think that were important for him. And one of them is that he gets out of prison in early 1967 and he ends up going to San Francisco and that summer, which is famously known as the summer of love, right in the middle of that there's this Mars Neptune conjunction in August of 1967. And this is when he's first gathering together his so called family, his cult, basically the Manson family in San Francisco. Right?
- [210:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. What's interesting talking, you know, seeing how these things can be extended when you have a retrograde. Manson's release from prison March 21, 1967. And Mars has just gone retrograde at 2 degrees of Scorpio. So it's already co present with Neptune, even though it's on the other end of the sign that Mars retrograde. So he's released from prison. Mars is co present with Neptune in Scorpio. The Mars retrograde is going to wander back into Libra and then go back into Scorpio. So that by the end of July, July 28, Manson's actually arrested and for you know, having a teenage girl with him basically. But you know, there's something about Manson's life at this time which we don't need to get into now. But he, he keeps getting away with stuff that he, you know, legally shouldn't be getting away with. And, and people have theories about why that is. But yeah, certainly by July and August he's putting together that family as Mars is now back in Scorpio. You know, even by the end of July and throughout the summer, that summer of love, Mars is back co present with Neptune. So again, it's that matter of like, you know, Mars after a retrograde, moving slowly, spending a lot of time in the same sign. So that, that co presence with Neptune is really drawn out. And yeah, over a short period of time he assembles what people call his family, a ragtag gang of runaways and other counter country, countercultural, you know, wanderers. And yeah, you know, and this is, this is the crew of people that he'll be with over the next two, three years as he goes on to become this cultural icon of murder and terror.
- [212:49]
B
Right. Because he eventually instructs his followers to murder people and they go off and do it. And one thing about his Mars Neptune conjunction, I didn't know until last night When I was researching this in his biography is that prior to this point, he was involved in. The Wikipedia biography says he was involved in pimping, basically in having women prostitutes that he was in charge of and was putting on the. The streets, and that this was a significant part of his biography. And he actually married one of the prostitutes that he was working with at a certain point. I thought that was a striking manifestation of his Mars Neptune conjunction in the fifth house that I didn't know about until yesterday.
- [213:38]
A
Yeah, I know he was arrested for pimping in 1954 a couple of times. And, you know, even. Even with the Manson family, like the. The. The runaway girls in the. In the Manson family, I mean, he more or less pimped them out as well. He would have them working in. In strip bars and bringing him the money. The. The ranch that they stayed in was, you know, basically their rent was paid to the old guy who owned the rent. The ranch, you know, through. Through favors from the. The girls in the Manson family, most likely squeaky from. So, yeah, I mean, he was. He. It was always kind of pimping, even, like the. The whole thing about the Manson family was it was Manson's hold over the women that made the family enticing to the men who hung out in the family. You know, the men wanted the women. Charlie. Charlie controlled the women. So even within the family, there was an element of him being a pimp of sorts.
- [214:40]
B
Got it. Okay. That makes so much more sense of just. I had always seen just his birth chart and this emphasis on the seventh house with that whole stellium of Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, sun, all in the seventh house. And then that because he has a day chart, he was born a little bit before sunset, the ruler of the 7th House of Relationships and other people. Being that Mars in Virgo in the fifth house of sex and sexuality, conjunct Neptune, and that being the most difficult place planet in his chart. But I had never fully understood why that was until I was reading that about his biography. But suddenly it makes just like a ton of sense. All right, so to jump forward, to not dwell on that. To jump forward.
- [215:21]
A
Okay. No, yeah. But I just wanted to say there's one other thing is he was a very talented musician and songwriter. So there is that. Mars, Neptune is there, just as you would expect. He was good. People like Neil Young or whoever have said, yeah, he's a crazy killer, but he wrote some good songs, which is objectively true, despite what one thinks of his character.
- [215:45]
B
Okay, I'm glad you mentioned that, because that is the setup for the next Mars Neptune conjunction after this one in 1967, which occurs two years later in 1969. And the context for that ties into what you're just saying because he was a musician and he was trying to get. There was a music producer that he was trying to work with and that this music producer, like almost like signed a deal with him, but ended up like backing out at some point.
- [216:13]
A
Right, Correct. Yeah. The Beach Boys did record one of Manson's songs. They rewrote some of the lyrics, but the. And, and it was this producer, Terry Melcher, who produced that record.
- [216:25]
B
Got it.
- [216:26]
A
So, yeah. You know, he even had a song on a Beach Boys record. So that's something then.
- [216:32]
B
So two years later, it's February 22, 1969. There's another conjunction that month of Mars and Neptune in Scorpio this time. And he instructs. One of the things he's going to end up doing later that year is he instructs his followers and his cult to go and kill the music producer because he knows where the guy lives and he knows his house. But what happens at the conjunction in February of 1969 is the music producer moves out of his house, which Manson doesn't know, and this other couple, which is Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate, move into the house in February of 1969 at the time of this Mars Neptune conjunction. And then they will famously later be murdered when Manson sends his crazed followers to murder them in this grisly murder later that summer. But that's what's so crazy about this conjunction to me, is that the primary event, there may be other events, but the primary event that I noticed is that Sharon Tate and Polanski move into that house at that time. And there's a Mars Neptune component to that because it's like they literally get murdered almost on ashes.
- [217:51]
A
Not Polanski.
- [217:52]
B
Yeah, well, yeah, Tate gets murdered and the others, Tate gets brutally murdered while she's pregnant because of a mix up, basically because they didn't know that they would be there and they thought they were going after this other guy.
- [218:08]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's basically what happened. Yeah.
- [218:13]
B
Okay. So that happens later that summer. And then get this, Manson and his, his family are arrested and put on trial. And then two years later, because these Mars Jupiter conjunctions happen, or Mars Neptune conjunctions happen at about that rate, two years later, on January 25, 1971, there's a recurrence and Manson and his co defendants on this date are found guilty. And this marks basically the End of his career and the end of his life as a free man because he would then spend the rest of his life in prison. From this point forward and on this date, Mars is at 1 degree of Sagittarius, conjunct Neptune at 2 degrees of Sagittarius. So he ends up having again this recurrence of Mars and Neptune when him and his cultist basically are sentenced to life in prison.
- [219:12]
A
Yeah, and think about it, he's got the Mars Neptune conjunction. And Manson's conviction is very unusual in law. It is incredibly in. It is very, very hard to convict someone of murder if they weren't even in the house or the, the vicinity of where the murder occurred. It was, what they proved was that he instigated it and he had an influence. So it's very Mars Neptune, like, like he didn't, he didn't personally kill anyone. He just sort of, you know. Yeah. Entranced these followers into doing it. So it's even interesting on that regard, you know, and that's that that was acknowledged. Like no one, no one, no one thought he was there. It's very well established he wasn't. He brought them there, he told them what to do and then he left.
- [220:09]
B
Left, right.
- [220:10]
A
You know?
- [220:11]
B
Yeah.
- [220:11]
A
I think there was a follow up murder the next night or two nights later. And for that one he did tie up the people, but even then he left and the other people went in and killed him. So, yeah, you know, it's a very hard thing to do to convict someone to murder when they're not even in the, in the, you know, vicinity. But that's what you get with him.
- [220:30]
B
Yeah, totally. And this is, that's a good example for another digression of things we learn from this, which is that sometimes by doing this recurrence transit work, you learn more about the specific manifestations of certain planetary combinations. And right here we're seeing a really good example of what Mars and Neptune can mean when they come together in some instances. And it's a really great empirical way of, of learning what the planetary alignments actually mean and what different planetary energies mean when they're blended together.
- [221:08]
A
Yeah, there's one you missed. Can you just go to his chart in September 24, 1984, on this day. So you see, Mars and Neptune are again in a recurrence in Sagittarius, but at the opposite end of Sagittarius as to when he was convicted. On this day he was assaulted by another inmate at prison and set on fire there. He came close to dying.
- [221:31]
B
Okay, wow.
- [221:33]
A
Yeah, it's in the whole sign eighth house. And you know. Yeah, just thought I'd throw it in there.
- [221:40]
B
Right. Yeah, that's a really good point. Good example. Yeah. That's crazy. And that's such a weird combination because I don't think. Have we looked at a Mars Neptune before? I think this is our first one, right?
- [221:54]
A
It. Yeah, it is our first one. Yeah.
- [221:57]
B
Okay. Yeah. So just all sorts of different combinations work for different people in these unique ways. That's like symbolically resonant with the nature of the combination.
- [222:08]
A
Indeed.
- [222:11]
B
A couple other combinations that we haven't covered yet that I want to make sure that we do briefly. One of them is Saturn conjunct Pluto. And with this one I have a really good example where you found the Meghan Markle one.
- [222:28]
A
Right? I was looking at that too. I was glad you found that.
- [222:31]
B
Exactly. Because I was thinking about Saturn Neptune. And one of the news stories I remember because that conjunction went exact at the beginning of 2020 and before COVID really ramped up. One of the news stories I remembered about that year that was very close to the Saturn Pluto conjunction is that Prince Harry and Meghan Markle announced that they were leaving the royal family at that time or that they were stepping down from official duties. And what's fascinating about that is that both of them were born with a natal Saturn Pluto conjunction in different signs, in adjacent signs.
- [223:08]
A
Megan was literally born less than a week after Harry's parents were married. Just to put up a little spin on that. They were married, I think 7-29-81. And she's born 8-4-81.
- [223:25]
B
So here's her chart. So she has Saturn at 5 degrees of Libra, co present with Pluto at 21 degrees of Libra in the fourth whole sign house. And you know, Saturn rules the seventh house of relationships. It's in the fourth house of family and parents.
- [223:46]
A
And let's actually you're kind of. There's also. She's got Saturn, Jupiter co present with Pluto. And really when we get to this period in 2020, that's really relevant.
- [223:55]
B
Again, that's a good point. Also Saturn, Jupiter co present in the same sign and Jupiter Pluto co present because of course, all of those would.
- [224:05]
A
Recur.
- [224:08]
B
In early 2020. So that's her chart. And then Prince Harry's chart is here September 15, 1984, and he has Pluto at 0 degrees of Scorpio, co present with Saturn at 12 degrees of Scorpio. So again, a sign based co presence really not that far off in terms of degrees so both of them have that signature of Saturn Pluto, natally. And then what happened is at the beginning of 2020, on January 8, 2020, they made their first public announcement, basically, that they were starting to pull back from doing official royal duties and things as part of the British royal family, which Harry was part of and Meghan married into, of course. So here's the chart for that, because what's so striking about that date is it's extremely close to the Saturn Pluto conjunction that went exact just a few days later. But here we see Saturn at 22 degrees of Capricorn, conjunct Pluto at 22 degrees of Capricorn. So it's on the same degree. And then all of a sudden, they begin this process, basically, of starting to remove themselves from the royal family. And over the course of the next several months, there's this increasingly public and increasingly tenuous break between Meghan and Harry and the royal family, including Harry's brother William and his father, Prince. Or was he King Charles at that? I guess just Prince Charles.
- [225:55]
A
No, he was still Prince Charles at that point. Yeah.
- [225:58]
B
Yeah. So I thought this was incredible, just because then the Saturn Pluto recurrence for them is this huge break between them as a couple and the royal family. And then there's all sorts of accusations lobbed back and forth from both sides eventually about why this happened or whose fault it was and et cetera. But we don't have to go into all of that so much as just noting that this very public rift in this family came about during the Saturn Pluto recurrence.
- [226:30]
A
Yeah. Yep. Simple as that.
- [226:33]
B
Yeah. So that's pretty good. So, you know, this brings us back to the 2021, which is just this huge pileup of planets that happened in the first few months of 2020. This stellium in Capricorn, that was like Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto, at different points, there were different outer planets. And this reminded me of a point I meant to make, which is that this is why stelliums in the sky, in mundane astrology or in world astrology are important. Because when a stellium happens in a certain sign, when there's a cluster of a bunch of. Of planets that move together into conjunction by degree or by sign, all of a sudden, a bunch of people are gonna start having recurrent transits all at the same time. And it starts drawing in everybody's chart to this weird energy vortex that's almost like a black hole, because the mass of all of those planets being together is causing a bunch of people to start having recurrence transits if they have those planets in close alignment to their own birth chart, especially conjunctions.
- [227:40]
A
You know what looking at this chart reminds me of, Chris, actually, this is going to be worth it. So going back to 2016, and we're predicting the election, you mentioned why you didn't think of Trump then in 2016. I'm thinking, well, Trump is a 2024 guy. He's not a 2016 guy. So I don't think he's going to win. And I thought Hillary was going to win. And I, even when I, when I predicted Hillary would win, my reasoning, and this is where this can bite you in the ass. I was looking at this, this, this cluster of planets in 2020. I was talking about it in 2016, and I was thinking, oh, something bad is going to happen in early 2020, and Hillary has a Saturn Pluto conjunction and she's going to have a recurrence transit. And so this is going to be this big moment in her presidency. That's what I'm thinking in 2016 and being hilariously wrong, while also, you know, sort of bearing the lead. A lot of astrologers, we Knew that early 2020 looked really crazy, even if we didn't know what to make of it. But I, I did think something big was coming, but I thought it would be President Hillary Clinton who'd be dealing with it because she had that Nader natal Saturn Pluto. So it's, it's interesting. It's just you can learn when you get things wrong as well. I think everyone who's been listening to this episode can fathom why I would have thought something like, why I would have used that reasoning. It wasn't necessarily unsound, even if it was ultimately wrong. But looking at this reminds me now of like, like since we're on the subject of recurrence trans. I was thinking, oh, well, Hillary, if she wins, this'll be her big moment, you know, and it probably would have been had things been different.
- [229:33]
B
Yeah, well, and it was in mundane astrology, of course. This was the recurrence, you know, the 2020 COVID pandemic on the Saturn Pluto conjunction. The last time there had been a Saturn Pluto conjunction was in the early 1980s when the AIDS epidemic was, was breaking out. Yeah. So good times. But stelliums are important. Cause then as the point you were making was like, you know, Harry was getting a recurrence, but Megan especially was getting a recurrence because she didn't just have Saturn Pluto, but she also had a Jupiter Pluto recurrence. Later that year, of course. Well, actually already there's already co present the Jupiter Saturn recurrence. So she's having like three major outer planet recurrences by conjunction in her chart.
- [230:25]
A
And in her particular chart, the chart ruler is locked in with those planets as well. She's got the moon, she's cancer rising. The moon in Libra is a degree from conjunct Saturn and two from Jupiter, etc. Etc. So it really is like, it's a big part of her chart. Even more than your average person born in 1981. A lot of people born in 1981 have that Jupiter Saturn in Pluto. Hello Beyonce, hello, Britney Spears, many others. You know, a lot of them would have been having recurrence transits like that. But even in, in Megan's case, because the moon is there and it's a chart ruler, it's just that much more the case case for her, even relative to her peers.
- [231:10]
B
Absolutely. And to take that a step further, it's like look at what house this recurrence of planets is falling in. That entire capricorn stellium in 2020 is falling in her seventh house of relationships and of course squaring her fourth house stellium of family. And they're having this huge falling out with her partner's family.
- [231:34]
A
Yeah. And her partner's family are part of like a millennia long institution, you know, that, that once ruled the world. So it's not just anyone's family. Yeah, I mean it's the royal family. Give me a break. It's, it's, it's, you know. Yeah. An institution in many senses. Senses of the word. There are all these people behind the scenes who, you know, actually decide what's acceptable and what's not.
- [232:04]
B
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that is my example of that of like Saturn Pluto. Because then it became really dark in terms of the tension in terms of being Saturn Pluto. It was a major thing. It seemed like not pleasant from the reports that I saw.
- [232:25]
A
Yeah. The only thing that was gonna make this story go away was for something even worse to happen to another British royal. So there you go.
- [232:34]
B
Yeah. All right. So you mentioned Beyonce and that actually brought up because she was a Jupiter Saturn one that I noticed. And this one's good. Cause we recently got Beyonce's time not too long ago and she has Aries rising. And so that Libra stellium in her chart is actually in the seventh whole sign house. Because even though the ascendant's at 29 Aries, the descendant is at 29 Libra but she has this whole Libra stellium. Then that's in the seventh whole sign house, which is like Mercury, Saturn, Jupiter, Venus, Pluto. So absolutely packed seventh house. And part of that seventh house is that she has a very close Jupiter Saturn conjunction with Saturn at 9 degrees of Libra, conjunct Jupiter at 12 degrees of Libra. And the primary thing I want to point out about this that I thought was fascinating is we, of course famously had after she was born, the next time that Jupiter and Saturn would conjoin and replicate her natal conjunction is Jupiter and Saturn do that every 20 years. So around the ages of like 19, 20, there's a replication when there's a Saturn Jupiter conjunction that takes place in Taurus.
- [233:57]
A
If you go to February 15th of 2000 is when Destiny's Child announced their lineup change because there was the original four piece that recorded the first album and then half the group left and they brought in a third singer. And that was the classic Destiny's Child lineup. And that was announced on February 15, 2000, the Destiny's Child we know, with Michelle Williams Rowland. Yeah, the three piece.
- [234:31]
B
And that's the major thing that I noticed about this time frame of like, you know, around a year of this Saturn, Jupiter conjunction for Beyonce is that that basically this is when the group that she was in, Destiny's Child, releases two major albums which really make them a huge hit. So there's one that's released in the middle of 1999 that had that hit say My Name.
- [235:00]
A
The Writings on the Wall. Yeah, the Writings on the Wall and.
- [235:04]
B
Then the next one.
- [235:06]
A
And Bills, Bills, Bills.
- [235:08]
B
Right, classic. And then In May of 2001, Survivor is released and this eventually wins Beyonce her first Grammy as a songwriter for the title track. So basically around this time, Beyonce is becoming a huge superstar as part of the group that she's in in Destiny's Child. But also sometime around this time, I believe is when her and Jay Z get together and Jay Z's like a famous rapper and they got together and became this power couple with Beyonce being a huge superstar and Jay Z being a huge superstar. And that's the other piece that I think is important that was happening around this conjunction is just that that relationship, that famous relationship that she was in was starting to get going at some point around that Saturn, Jupiter conjunction.
- [236:02]
A
Yeah, I have a chart of Destiny's Child and Jay Z performing Together at the Hot 97 Summer Jam 2001 at Nassau Coliseum in Uniondale, New York, on Long Island. So they certainly were hanging out on that night. And that was still Jupiter and Saturn co present in Gemini.
- [236:20]
B
And what day was that?
- [236:22]
A
June 28, 2001.
- [236:26]
B
Yeah, there we go. Right. Because the co presence gets extended not just in Saturn, Saturn and Jupiter in Taurus, but also Saturn, Jupiter in Gemini for a little while.
- [236:36]
A
Yeah, it was really great. Back in the day, the MTV website would report every little thing about these celebrities and so you could. It was really great for the astrology and I would, you know, just save these, these, these events and things like this. And they come in handy 25 years later. Right.
- [236:56]
B
Yeah. So that was the main thing I wanted to point out. There's other recurrences with her, with Venus Uranus stuff, because her and Jay Z end up getting married on April 4, 2008, near a Venus Uranus conjunction. And then, for example, Venus and Uranus move into a co presence very close to the famous incident with Salon attacking her sister, attacking Jay Z and some of the stuff surrounding their relationship. And then she releases The Lemonade album April 23, 2016, on a close Venus Uranus conjunction. And the album partially focuses on issues with Jay Zs and infidelity and stuff like that. So it's replicating the natal Venus Uranus conjunction of their wedding chart, basically. Yeah, so that was that example. But I just wanted to mention it because you mentioned Meghan Markle and that Jupiter Saturn conjunction in her chart and how that gets partially replicated in 2020. But for Beyonce, that first Jupiter Saturn conjunction was a really defining chart.
- [238:09]
A
Show me that wedding chart again.
- [238:11]
B
Sure. So let me animate the chart. I don't have a time or anything, so I'm just gonna approximate it. But the date that I wrote down is April 4, 2008. What I have on April 4, 2008 is Venus at like 28 degrees of Pisces, conjunct Uranus at 28 degrees of Pisces.
- [238:36]
A
Right, right. I. I had a brain fart. But Jay Z was born with Venus, Neptune conjunct out of sign, not Venus Uranus. So I was thinking for a second maybe he had a recurrence in there, but he doesn't.
- [238:50]
B
No, it's one of those, like, you know, an event creating a new foundation chart. In this instance, it's like their marriage beginning on a Venus Uranus in Pisces. And we see that Venus Uranus conjunction. And then here, this is the release of the Lemonade album. And on April 23, 2016, we see Venus right. At 22 Aries, conjunct Uranus at 21 Aries. And it was a high point for her artistically in terms of most people's regard at that album, but it was also dealing with some pretty heavy stuff in terms of their relationship.
- [239:27]
A
Right, right. That was right when Mars had just stationed retrograde in Sagittarius. Co present with. With Saturn very rare. Double retrograde in a sign of Saturn.
- [239:39]
B
Nice. All right. What have we not covered at this point, my friend?
- [239:49]
A
Oh, my man, I'm not sure. I mean, we can go on and on.
- [239:54]
B
Have we. I don't know. I don't know if we've demonstrated. Have we demonstrated the point? I don't know if we've demonstrated it at this point. It what, that recurrence. There might be something occurrence transit thing?
- [240:06]
A
Yeah, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'm kind of on the fence. I'm kind of on the fence with this whole astrology thing. I don't know if I believe any of it anymore.
- [240:13]
B
Can you imagine? I'm sure statistically there's going to be somebody at this point that's like. I'm not buying it, but I cannot. If you're not buying it at this point, I can't. There's nothing else we could do at this point to convince anyone, I believe. Right.
- [240:29]
A
No, no, but it's. It's there for. For people to find for themselves. Like I was saying, I think, you know, recurrence transits. If Michael hadn't told me about them doing the work I do, I might have just stumbled across them. Anyway. They're really obvious. If you're really. If you're paying attention and you're thinking just a little outside the box. They creep up everywhere, you know, and. And even someone like you, Chris, who was resisting them, eventually you see astrology that you just. It becomes really clear that transits do operate this way.
- [241:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Because it's a different way of thinking about transits and thinking about what's possible. And at first there's naturally going to be a resistance to that from those that are used to thinking about transits in a certain way. And it forces you to expand your conception of what a transit is or can be. I understand having some resistance to that. There may be some people have resistance to that, I don't know. But for me, it's been very valuable learning this technique and really diving into it and starting to get a sense for how it works, because it has expanded my understanding of. Of transits and my conceptualizations of transits in a really constructive way that's giving more information without necessarily messing up something or changing things in a significant way. It's just adding additional information of something that's there that you could overlook pretty easily if you're not aware of it.
- [242:09]
A
Yep. You gotta be paying attention.
- [242:14]
B
Okay, well, I think then instead of killing myself trying to share the rest of the examples that we found, I'm gonna save these for a follow up episode probably of the Secret Astrology podcast. I'll record that as like a bonus. Maybe you and I will record that as a bonus episode just for patrons at the end of this month. If people want more and we should.
- [242:37]
A
Mention to people, you know, we do, we do these secret episodes. Well, I'm often, I'm not always doing them with you, but you do them every month. I'm often a guest on them. And that's where the really juicy astrology is done, folks. I mean, this podcast thing, you know, for the general public, you get the, the general pablum. The real stuff is on the secret Astrology episodes that are for patrons only. So pony up folks, if you want the real stuff. The. The high octane astrology coming down.
- [243:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate your promotion of me, but I do want to say I actually put all of the best stuff out in the public episodes, which is why they're so long, because I get so excited about doing all the research and then wanting to share as much of it as possible and to contribute to the astrological tradition and a genuine excitement about our findings and passion for astrology and love for the subject and for advancing the field and expanding the knowledge of the astrological community. I actually put way too much out for free just to the public episodes. And then when we have other leftovers, we do put those in the Secret Astrology podcast or other things for patrons, which there's gonna be some really good examples there that I actually am struggling not to spend another hour recording today.
- [244:03]
A
Likewise. Likewise. Yeah, not to mention doing other aspects, like we've only done conjunctions. I'd love to do one on just trines or just squares and what have you. I mean, it's all doable. There's enough.
- [244:16]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So we're gonna go into some conclusions here, but we'll just say that, yeah, this is, this is the foundation and we'll save some of our other episodes for the Secret Astrology podcast that we'll record probably later this month. Hey, so quick interjection while I'm editing this episode in post, but Nick and I did end up recording a follow up episode on the Secret Astrology podcast where we ended up covering 16 extra chart examples that ended up being cut from this episode. So in that episode it ended up being a great follow up because we covered a bunch of planetary combinations that we weren't able to make it to in this episode. We also covered multiple planet recurrences with a couple of example charts that I actually meant to include in this episode, but I forgot to. And then we even covered one intergenerational recurrence transit example, which was really amazing to cap off that episode. So it ended up being a 2 hour and 40 minute follow up discussion. So if you'd like to get access to that episode, you can sign up for the Secret astrology podcast@patreon.com astrologypodcast and that's one of the ways that we help to support and fund this work is through the paying subscribers that sign up for our Patreon and help us to fund this research. So yeah, check it out@patreon.com astrologypodcast all right, thanks. And then if people would like us to do some follow up episodes on other aspects, if this creates, creates enough excitement in the astrological community, let us know in the comment section on YouTube, because that's the main place to get feedback at this point to give us feedback if you liked this. And let us know if you'd like to see that episode because then if you do, we'll do a follow up on other aspects in the future for the public podcast. And I do want to say, if anybody has a good example, that's another one that I'd like to do is I want to put out a survey and ask people, let's say, especially for conjunctions, let's keep it more restricted to conjunctions at this point to keep with our theme. But if people have a good example of a recurrence transit, either in their own birth chart or in a celebrity chart that they've found, let us know in the comments below this video on YouTube because I'd like to do a follow up where we share some stories of submissions that we've received from listeners. Because I think that would really help to flesh out some of the celebrity examples that we've been getting where we focus oftentimes on the surface level of major visible events in a person's life. But this technique is actually even more impressive when you know, the behind the scenes story and you know, the emotional and other things that were going on surrounding some of these alignments were actually. It's actually much more powerful when you have that behind the scenes experience of them. And I'd love to hear some of those stories from people. And then we could do a follow up on those as well.
- [247:16]
A
And another follow up episode we could do on this theme is synastry recurrence transits. For instance, when I met you in 2005, that was right when Saturn came into Leo, my sun sign. And you are someone who has the sun and Saturn co present in a sign. And my experience of Saturn being co present with my sun. I recognize I said to you at the time, of course you didn't believe in recurrence transits, but I was like, yeah, look, I got, I got the Saturn sun and you have Saturn sun in your natal chart. And so sometimes transits are like that. You're having a certain kind of transit and someone comes into your life. Work becomes central in your daily life who has that same, the same combination that you're having as a transit. They have that as a natal configuration. If you have Mars, suddenly, or let's say, yeah, Mars is conjunct your Neptune, you start dating someone who has natal Mars conjunct Neptune. That kind of thing happens so often and is another really sort of unsung, uncovered facet of this. I'd say it's adjacent to what we've been covering in this episode, but it really gets into the weeds of synastry. So that's another interesting one if folks wanted us to talk about that as well.
- [248:37]
B
Yeah, that would be really amazing to do as well as just. I've seen that. One of the examples I left out was like Francis Ford Coppola being born on a Sun Saturn conjunction like you mentioned. And then his daughter, his most famous daughter, Sofia Coppola being born on a Sun Saturn conjunction in his fifth house. So that's like another variation of what you were just talking about, sort of.
- [248:59]
A
Yeah, yeah. Sofia Coppola was born while Francis was filming the Godfather. And she even appears as a baby in the movie in the final scene where the baby's being baptized. And you know, there's all the shooting going on. So there's even like this. She has the Sun Saturn conjunction in his fifth house and his wife is having a baby while he's filming this film. That's very consequential to his career.
- [249:26]
B
I love it. That's perfect. All right, so let's wrap up and let's restate some points, but let's also summarize some things that we've learned that are important. So to restate my premise that I said at the beginning, my Formulation of what we're seeing here is that if a person is born under a specific celestial alignment, then important moments in their life will happen when the same celestial alignment reoccurs in the sky. So that's what I said at the beginning and now I think we've demonstrated why I said that and that that premise is actually true, that scientific principle and premise. I hope now we've made a compelling case to show people that that is true and that that's like a valuable, very core astrological principle that you can use in practice in different ways. All right, let's see other things. One of the cool things is that the technique is birth time independent. While knowing the time and house placement and sect and other things provides additional info as well as what house the recurrence will land in, which we've seen to be important several times. It's still theoretically something you could use and get some information from even if you don't have a birth time. So that's very good news for a significant portion of the population that doesn't know their birth time. That there is a predictive technique that you can use that's pretty useful in terms of still making predictions about important events in the future.
- [251:00]
A
Yep.
- [251:02]
B
Yeah, so that's true. By extension, this is also while the co presences are really important and that's been something really core I think that we've seen consistently, there's also another level where this technique works independent of zodiac. And so to some extent you could use it sidereally. For example, you could also use it even if you're not using a zodiac. For example. There's things about this technique that while you can layer additional things like the zodiac in ways that I think are important and useful, there's also a certain way in which you could use this technique, even independent of what zodiac or any zodiac. And I think there's something compelling about that as well from a practical and conceptual standpoint.
- [251:50]
A
Yeah, like with synodic cycles, it's part of this sort of proto astrology, proto horoscopic astrology. Anyway, before there was horoscopic astrology, that was just that sort of omen type of phase astrology and things like recurrence transits and synodic cycles were probably part of how that was done. It's a reasonable inference to make.
- [252:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And that retrogrades, for example, especially with visible planets, are something that they were paying attention to in the sky because you literally see one of the planets, let's just say, especially a fast moving one like Mercury or Venus, Or Mars slows down and then suddenly spends an inordinate amount of time, let's say, in a conjunction with a slower moving planet like Jupiter or Saturn or what have you, it extends and emphasizes that transit, which in this context, we understand why that can be even more important because of how it can relate back to the natal signature that different people have in their birth charts.
- [252:53]
A
Yeah, there was a great example of that at the end of last year, 2024. Mercury went retrograde in Sagittarius while Jupiter was in Gemini, which makes a mutual reception. But because Mercury went retrograde in Sagittarius, you had like six, seven weeks, like from late November to early January, of Mercury in Sagittarius, Jupiter in Gemini, and a really extended mutual reception between those two planets. And it was interesting to watch.
- [253:23]
B
Yeah, definitely. Let's see, a lot of this I've said a few times, but it's been teaching me things about the nature of certain planets individually, but also especially certain planetary combinations, which I found fascinating and I found educational because it's giving an access point for understanding what the planets mean, which is independent of other conceptual or mythological or other types of, of things that astrologers sometimes use as access points to understand the planets. This is a much more direct, empirical way of understanding planetary combinations and the significations and symbolism of the planets almost than anything I've ever seen before. There's something about it that just feels different and gives me a much more empirical and direct sense of the planetary meaning. And that's something that, that excites me from a research and studying standpoint.
- [254:20]
A
Yeah, I've often said this to clients when I'm pointing things like this out. When we're learning astrology, we learn a language. We learn the archetypal language that gives us the ability to communicate a universal idea, but make it feel very personal to everyone at once. But when you, when you start getting into this kind of astrology, you're really transcending that level of universality and you're really getting down to what a particular planetary combination means to the individual. You know, it becomes something very specific. There's nothing symbolic about it. It'll happen to fit itself into this larger symbolic scheme. But for that individual person, these combinations mean real things, really experiences, real people, real aspirations, all that stuff. And, and that's exactly. I mean, you're right. When you're looking at them this way, it allows you to get past that, that archetypal level where you're trying to look at something that applies to everyone at Once and, and you know, narrowing it down to what does this combination mean to this person?
- [255:32]
B
Right. And it's like, who has this natal combination of planets in their birth chart? And then what happened to those people when those combinations reoccurred as a filtering mechanism? And then you could filter it further by saying what happened when that recurred. And there was also a retrograde and so on and so forth. But it starts getting very. You could rebuild your entire understanding of what the planets mean in astrology just from using this technique. And you would get to the same or a very similar place to where astrologers already have gotten, just from their own empirical understanding of the planets and certain planetary alignments. But it's a fascinating way where you could rebuild everything from scratch if you needed to, with just basic principles.
- [256:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. You can fathom like for instance, the, you know, Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto, for Meghan Markle or Beyonce can mean wildly different things. We have a sort of code where we can attribute a certain number of traits or descriptions to both. But ultimately there are these very specific individual meanings. And it's really like the life itself delineates the chart. And this is where the recurrence transits really do that, that it's the transit that tells you what the planetary combination means, not what some astrologer interpreting it says it is. It's like the thing itself, you know, whatever it was, a car accident, a wedding. That's what that combination means, right?
- [257:09]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. And it's like you could bypass even the entire long 2, 3000, 4000 year tradition of astrology of accumulated astrologers contributing observations of what they think the planet planets mean. And you could like rebuild everything from scratch if you wanted to, to get a fresh understanding. And in some ways that would be valuable, but in other ways you'd actually end up coming back to where you started, which is that astrologers have been doing this for such a long time. We actually have figured out the planetary meanings pretty well. And this technique actually demonstrates that in pretty concrete ways.
- [257:47]
A
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
- [257:50]
B
Yeah. So you mentioned consultations, and before I forget, I wanted to mention that because you do consultations using this techni. And I really want to. If people are curious about it or want to see it applied in their chart or need some help understanding the application, that's something you're available to do for consultations. And I definitely recommend you for consultations because I don't know anybody. You know, obviously there's nobody else that I know in the world who's been using this technique as extensively and knows how to use it in a consulting setting as effectively as you. Because you're the one that's been working on this for most of your career at this point as an astrologer.
- [258:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, I have. I mean, that class with Michael was in 1999 and I just got right down to researching them, you know, a lot. And yeah, gave that talk at UAC in 2012, I think in 2016 because of the whole Hillary thing. I got a bit like, you know, oh, I got, I burned myself. Obviously I've redeemed that a bit, but.
- [258:50]
B
Right.
- [258:50]
A
You know, since then, then. Yeah. But yeah, you know, you got to lose to know how to win, I suppose. But there you go. I mean even that, that's what's actually really important to me. You know, the, the, the shame of getting a prediction wrong is fairly minor because what's really important is for you and your viewers to understand what I was thinking when I made the mistake. Like, like the what? You know, like, oh, you, you, you made the wrong call. But you know, everyone understands why or hopefully understands, you know, what my thinking was in doing that. So that to my mind is, is just.
- [259:26]
B
What was that last part?
- [259:27]
A
Getting something. Everyone understands why I made the call. I did, you know.
- [259:32]
B
Right, yeah, that it was. It's like we learn from every prediction that we make. I mean, if you're a good astrologer, if you're like conscious, you recognize mistakes and you learn something from them and that's the only way you grow and learn as an astrologer is by doing that, having that self reflection and then building on that, which is really cool. But you do consultations. Your website is nickdaganbestastrologer.com right?
- [260:01]
A
Nickdaganbestastrologer.Com Absolutely. I'm available for consultations, rectification and yeah, I mean, recurrence, transits, they're not something I look out for specifically. They present themselves all the time. Time. All the time in any number of consultation circumstances.
- [260:23]
B
Yeah, it's one of those things that goes to a point that's like a recurring lesson about if you know what to look for. There's things in astrology that are doing crazy impressive things, but sometimes you have to know what to look for. Your eyes have to be open to something and there can be things where, if it doesn't fit your paradigm of how you think things work, you can not quite get it. And I think that was one of the blocks that I had for a long time. Is it not quite fitting the paradigm of how I learned what transits are, but one of the things that we've done here today is sort of expand the definition of what transits are, in a sense, and what they can be. I think that'll be a useful contribution to contemporary transit theory and contemporary predictive work using transits in astrology from this point forward.
- [261:12]
A
Yep, absolutely. It's funny to me, you know, when I was taking that class with Michael, Michael had this fantastic library, the Joanna Shannon Library in his office in New York City. And I was reading all these astrology books during that time I was with him because, you know, that library was there, I could take new books out every week and I most certainly did. But when I left Michael's class and I left New York, I basically put. Put, you know, largely put reading astrology books behind me. Your fine work, of course, notwithstanding, from that point on. Yeah, right from the, from 2000 onward, I really made a point to just work on my database, do my own research, do make my own observations, and build my knowledge base from. From what I was finding. Rather like I felt I had just. I had exhausted what I could get from books and I really needed to. If I wanted to grow as an astrologer, I had to go out there and see the astrology myself.
- [262:17]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, shout out again, once again to Michael. Yeah, to think of him and to give him credit as your original teacher who passed this down to you. And yeah, to give a shout out to him in terms of his memory and commemorating him on this day, one year since he passed away tomorrow, it's a credit to him where I was rewatching a workshop that he did from 2017 on predictive techniques. And I was reminded that he was oriented towards psychological astrology and he thought that was very important and that was where his emphasis was. But I was surprised in rewatching this predictive techniques workshop that he was also very grounded in real predictive astrology as well, and that there's elements of modern astrology, of 20th century astrology that had some very strong predictive elements. And while a lot of the emphasis of my career and a lot of the excitement over the past 20 or 30 years has been around going back to ancient astrology and recovering a more, or let's say pure form of predictive astrology, there's a lot of great stuff from modern contemporary astrology as well that needs to be reunited with the ancient traditions. And arguably this is probably something that's been in some of the ancient traditions potentially or could have been conceivably that others have noticed stuff like this long ago. And maybe there's some Babylonian astrologer from 3,000 years ago that's rolling our eyes at us right now. They're saying, you're just rediscovering this now. This is a new thing to you. But I think it's just important. There was good work done in 20th century astrology, just like there was good work done in ancient astrology. And that's one of the reasons why in the conclusion of my book, in the final page of my book, I encourage people not to give in to fundamentalism because there's something valuable to be learned from all of the different traditions, whether it's like ancient astrology versus modern astrology, whether it's, you know, whatever other divisions that we have in the astrological community, like whole sign versus quadrant houses. There's validity to both tropical versus sidereal astrology. There's things to be drawn from both. There's all these different ways in which I've tried to emphasize in that work. And even though my passion became ancient astrology, I've also tried to demonstrate through this podcast the usefulness and validity and the importance of being open to all different styles of astrology to learn something from. And I hope this is another instance of that where we've learned some valuable things today in this interesting fusion of modern and ancient astrology that we've kind of demonstrated here.
- [265:14]
A
Yeah. No matter what, if, you know, know, even if you're really set on a certain kind of path with your study of astrology, I encourage anyone to always branch out as much as possible, even just in a casual, curious, you know, absorbing, kind of probing investigation into what other people are doing. You know, don't, don't get stuck in your lane, even if you have a lane that you always go back to, you know, get out there and look at things in different ways. It is important especially, you know, to be able to break out of certain sort of systemic ways of thinking, you know, like, like, yeah, and, and challenge every preconception you have. I mean, that's a big part of, of developing your astrological mind is, you know, having some pet idea of getting really enthusiastic about it and then destroying it. It doesn't work and moving on or trying to destroy it, and it doesn't. And then you've got something more robust. So, yeah, you're meant to keep growing if you're going to get good at this.
- [266:30]
B
Yeah. And it's okay to research widely and then to pick a Lane and to really specialize in something and be able to be proficient in that, but also feel like you can defend that as this is my approach and I think this really works. It's just valuable. Also, I think it's really important to also be able to recognize the assumptions or the paradigms that you have adopted and how sometimes you can step outside of that and understand what is the paradigm that another astrologer has adopted and to be able to look at that and step outside of that sometimes to understand where different astrologers are coming from. And even if you don't agree or even if you're not on board with certain techniques or what have you, understanding the value in different approaches and different ways of speaking this language of astrology that we all speak, even if we use different dialects or different versions of that language.
- [267:29]
A
Yeah, I mean, ultimately this is what astrology represents, is the greatest generalizations until the. The most minute individual, you know, slices of that. You know, like everything from the macro, the very macro to the very micro. And. And so with that in mind. Yeah. You know, no matter how much you know about astrology, you still just know this, like sort of one version of it, this one perspective of it. You know, it really is something that. That virtually. Certainly every ancient culture had some form of astrology. Not everyone devised it into a horoscopic system or what have you, but everyone had some kind of astrology and. And it always spoke to them and it was always true in the way that astrology is. And that, that. So there is something you. I'm always trying to get to that universal thing. And maybe that's part of what drew me into the. The Babylonian ideas to be able to look at things in that really essential way.
- [268:36]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it's like there's this code that is underlying our universe and that's underlying our reality, and it's out there doing stuff. And I saw this discussion very briefly. I was watching that Neil DeGrasse Tyson video briefly, where they diss astrology and they make that like the thumbnail instead stuff to draw in viewers. But earlier in the discussion, before they got to astrology, they had this brief digression about simulation theory and the idea of the theory, what if this is a very advanced simulation that we're all living in? I thought it was so funny because he was treating that as a possibility. He was like, we can't rule that out. That's actually possible, that we're living in a simulation. But unfortunately there's no way to know that because there's no way to see. We'd have to see the code underlying reality. And ironically, I was just thinking the irony that astrology, which he later would reject because of different reasons, but he rejects just sort of out of hand. And I've never in interviews seen him to have more than a passing surface level familiarity with. With it. So of course you would reject the surface level of what you're not that familiar with. But I always think it's so fascinating that in instances like that, astrology would be one of the most compelling arguments of something like simulation theory, because it's literally showing this code that's operating underlying the events in everybody's lives and world events and interrelationships between people. And it's showing that things are more interactive, interconnected. And there is, you know, the ancient word for describing this, let's say, using modern language, this code or this let's say language, is fate. Like, that was the ancient way of conceptualizing that was the term fate, which meant like an ordering in sequence, an interconnection of events. And it's the reason underlying why certain events are interconnected in this very strange and mysterious but important way. And that's what ancient astrologers always conceptualized themselves of doing with astrology, is that they were studying fate, and that fate is the interconnections underlying our reality that's connecting together events that appear disconnected but are actually connected in these very interesting ways. And so I'm not fully advocating for simulation theory necessarily. I want to do a separate episode talking about that at some point and just talking about different ways that you could conceptualize astrology if you wanted to try to put a broader philosophical model on it. And I think that's one that you could use. But there's also, of course, others.
- [271:31]
A
You know what I find funny about that is the reason he can't see astrology as being that code. It's the same thing. We had this conversation in that secret astrology podcast episode we did. The scientists, they think that we think that the planets are making us do things. They think astrologers believe that planets. Planets influence us. I don't think I've met an astrologer who thinks planets influence us. Or I mean, maybe, you know, people have random theories, but no hard conviction. The planets are, you know, mirroring what we do. But I don't know any astrologer who actually thinks that we're being compelled to act by the planets. If there is some kind of mechanism involved, it would be a mechanism that is. Is turning the planets and turning us. But it isn't the planets turning us, so to speak. Yeah, no. Just as simply that if there is a mechanism involved, that the planets aren't the mechanism, the planets are also, you know, being turned by the mechanism as we are, if that is in fact what's going on. But that's why he can't see it as code, because he doesn't think of it as being. If he could. If someone could just, you know, point that out, then it could be more feasible for them to consider. But I think they just can never get over that hump of they think we think the planets are making us do these things.
- [273:12]
B
Right, Yeah, I think that's true. That's a good point. That is the stumbling block that causes a lot of people to reject astrology outright rather than looking to see what astrologers actually are doing and thinking. Thinking. And the majority of contemporary Western astrologers for the past century do believe that the planets are coinciding with or correlating with, that celestial movements are correlating with earthly events, but not that they're directly causing it. I've tried to remain more open because that's my conceptualization of astrology as you're describing, and has been for a long time now. I try to remain open because of the mercurial nature of astrology, of Mercury being the ancient ruler of astrology, that usually when there is a dichotomy between two sides in astrology, that usually it's like a both situation, like I was explaining before. So I've tried to remain more open in recent years that perhaps there are different causal mechanisms at play that could be relevant. But for the most part, I'm on the same page as you, that it's happening more through something like synchronicity or through a correlation, and that it's more like a code that's underlying reality, where the planets are mirroring things that are happening down here in this mysterious way that astrologers frankly don't fully understand yet and haven't worked out the entire system in terms of the broader cosmological implications of what this means. But we have found a lot of very compelling techniques that show the result of whatever it is that's behind the astrology that's doing that. And this is one of those techniques where you can use it and operate this weird advanced technology in order to see things in the future that you shouldn't otherwise be able to see. But we actually do need help from other smart individuals like Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who I wish we could have those conversations with in order to get more help integrating the implications of astrology into the broader cosmological frameworks that have been developed by contemporary scientists and physicists and things like that. And that's what people like Ptolemy were back in the day, or people like Kepler or Galileo or other people like that, as these very smart scientists, but that were also seeing astrology working and operating and were doing their best to reconcile it with the contemporary scientific paradigms of the time. And that's part of what the next step is gonna be for us and for the astrological community is to do that with the prevailing scientific paradigms of our time. But we have to do the groundwork first in understanding how astrology works. And this is a key moment in that because it's really getting to the heart of one of the most important techniques in astrology, which is transits, and expanding our understanding of how it can work as what it can do.
- [276:28]
A
Yep, very well said.
- [276:31]
B
Yeah. And it's like, I've always thought that transits was the most compelling way to demonstrate astrology in the first place, that I wish more skeptics of astrology looked into, because I think it's the part where astrology gets really compelling and doesn't become. Yeah, it's not as, like, subjective in terms of subjective, you know, character analysis or what have you, where you have this element. Element of subjectivity with this, there is this much more objective component, I think, that's much more compelling.
- [277:01]
A
Yeah. It gets more to the idea of astrology being this map of time. Once you're looking at transits, that's really coming alive as opposed to. If you just have the nativity. Well, that's just this one slice of time. It's like a photograph as opposed to, you know, an epic movie. So that's. Yeah, that's always been from day one. Transits were what drew me into astrology, what proved astrology to me, so to speak. It was looking through an ephemeris and really piecing that together. That was really how it spoke to me. So, yeah, it always astonishes me when I've come across astrologers. Transits, man. It's, you know, it's all in the natal chart. Just look at the natal chart. I'm sure that's true at some level, but I've always just been too compelled to think otherwise, I guess.
- [278:00]
B
Yeah, absolutely. All right, my friend. I was looking at my other points, but they're just reiterations of things we've said many times here. So I think we might be good and I think we are coming towards the end of this, so thank you so much.
- [278:14]
A
I think we have like a five hour episode or something, don't we?
- [278:17]
B
Okay. Well, it's turned into another epic, legendary episode, but I'm okay with that because this is like, you know, our life's work. And this especially. I say this a lot. I've said this a lot over the past couple of years of episodes you and I have done. But I think this is one of the most important episodes in the history of the podcast. And yeah, I think I stand by that because this is really good. Thank you for teaching me this technique. You were my teacher of this technique. Thank you also for your patience with me as a reluctant student of this technique over the years. But I came along, I caught up eventually. It just took 20 years, I think, of us talking and everything. But I hope I've made it up to you by us today. Putting this together and putting my own research of charts into this to help share this technique with the world together, it feels really special to me and I'm glad we got a chance to do this.
- [279:17]
A
I couldn't agree more, brother. It's the funny thing, it's true. Twenty years ago, you and I were parallel. We were both on our own path and we were both like, oh, yeah, you're good. I like your path. You enjoy that path. I'm on my path path. And now it's 20 years later and we're both very, like, far more familiar with the other guy's path, with what was the other guy's path 20 years ago. We're far more like each other than we were when we first met as astrologers in terms of what our focus is. We always joke that back in the day, Patrick was, you know, kind of amazing because he knew all your stuff and all my stuff and stuff. So he was this sort of like Libran bridge between it all. Our love child, we used to call him. But. And you know, Patrick is still dazzling me to this day with, you know, where he goes with that mind of his. But you and I have caught up to where Patrick was, where, you know, there's more of a sort of a broader grasp of things. And it's not just this one little wheelhouse that we keep tinkering with obsessively. So, yeah, speaking to you this way also helps me gauge my growth. Your growth, where we've come in these 20 years.
- [280:46]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I love that you're right, because Patrick had my love of zodiacal releasing and your love of recurrence transits and synodic cycles and things like that. And he's been synthesizing that for years. And now the two of us have been catching up and coming back to the same place.
- [281:04]
A
Yeah, exactly. You and I are becoming more Patrick, like, in that way.
- [281:09]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
- [281:12]
A
Right on. Well, thank you, brother. It's been fantastic. Yeah. These episodes, really. Yeah. Just making them helps me grow and get to the next level that I'm trying to get to. So thank you always for having me back.
- [281:28]
B
Yeah. Thank you. All right, everybody, Check out our two episodes we did on eclipses two years ago, eclipses in history. Check out our Venus retrograde in Aries episode and check out our Saturn conjunct Neptune episode, because all of those go into other recurrence transits that we didn't hear today. But otherwise, I think that's it for this episode of the Astrology Podcast. So thanks everyone for watching or listening, and we'll see you again next time. If you're a fan of the podcast and you'd like to find a way to help support my research, then consider becoming a patron through my page on patreon.com in exchange, you'll get access to subscriber benefits, such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend live recordings, the monthly electional Astrology Podcast, an exclusive podcast series called the Secret Astrology Podcast that's only available to patrons, or you can even get your name listed in the credits. For more information, go to patreon.com astrologypodcast Special thanks to patrons on my Producers tier, including patrons Kristi Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandi Rae, Angelic, Nambo Issa Sabah, Jeanne Marie Kaplan, Melissa Delano, Sunny Bazbaz, Kwatsi Alibarahu, Annie Newman, Ginger Sadlier, Berlin west, and Nikki Crawford. People often ask me if I'm available for consultations, but unfortunately I'm not right now because the podcast takes up so much of my time. However, I did create a consultations page on the Astrology Podcast website that has a list of astrologers that I recommend for astrology astrological consultations. You can find that@theastrologypodcast.com consultations. The astrology software we use here on the podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows, which is astrology software for the PC. You can get a 15% discount by using the promo code AP15 at the website alabe.com for Mac users, I recommend the software Astro Gold for macOS, which is astrology software for the Mac computer made by the creators of Solar fire for the PC. You can get a 15% discount with the promo code AstroPodcast15 through their website at AstroGold IO. If you're really looking to deepen your studies of astrology, then I would recommend signing up for my Hellenistic Astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology where I take people from bases basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts. There's over 100 hours of video lectures, plus monthly webinars and Q and A sessions, and then at the end of the course, you get a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me if you pass the final written test. Find out more information@theastrologyschool.com finally, shout out to our sponsor for this episode, which is the United Astrology Conference, which is happening September 3rd through the 9th, 202026 in Chicago. Find out more information at uacastrology.com.