← The Astrology Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Chris.
- [00:00]
B
Hey, my name is Chris Brennan, and you're listening to the Astrology podcast. In this episode, astrologer Leisa Schaim is joining me, and we're going to be looking at the ruler of the fifth house in each of the 12 houses in astrology. So, hey, Leisa, welcome back.
- [00:13]
A
Hey, Chris. Glad to be here.
- [00:16]
B
Yeah. So this is our third installment in this series, Part three of three, where we've been talking about the significations and the meaning of the fifth house in astrology. And in the first video, we did a deep dive into discussing the meaning and significance, significations and symbolism of the fifth house. Then in the second video, we looked at a bunch of example charts of people that had the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth house and how that showed up in their life and life events. In this third part, we're going to continue that by looking at the ruler of the fifth house when it's placed in each of the 12 houses, and how that imports fifth house significations into other houses and into other areas of the chart, which sometimes creates a strong connection symbolically between what this fifth house signifies and what other houses signify in the chart, which then in turn gives us a much better understanding of what the fifth house means. And this is actually, I think, for both of us, this is where it becomes really interesting when we get to the rulers of the houses.
- [01:20]
A
Right, Yeah. I think this is actually the most interesting part. I mean, obviously, the Ascendant ruler is really primary and showing how these show up as really fifth house focused people. But it just gets a lot more interesting and complex when you bring in all the different houses connecting with the fifth house, because it just shows a much greater range of specific subtopics connected with the fifth house and how that plays out in different people's lives and biographies.
- [01:48]
B
Yeah, and this is where it gets more highly specific, because in the previous episode, it was like, with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth house, it's saying something almost more universal about the person's life as a whole. But here it gets much more specific when you see crossovers between two parts of the life, and how when that happens, it can create much more highly specific delineations involving the fifth house.
- [02:15]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So I think we have a wealth and breadth of different types of examples to show you today.
- [02:23]
B
Yeah, for sure. All right, so why don't we jump right into it then, instead of wasting any time and get right to the example charts?
- [02:30]
A
Okay, sounds good.
- [02:32]
B
All right, so our first example chart is the birth chart of Queen Marie Antoinette. So Marie Antoinette was born with cancer rising and the sun and Venus in Scorpio in the fifth whole sign house, and it's ruled by Mars, which is placed in the sign of cancer in the first whole sign house, the sign that has to do with the body and physical vitality.
- [02:57]
A
And.
- [02:57]
B
And it has an opposition from Saturn, which is in Capricorn in the seventh house, the place of relationships and partners and marriage in a night chart. So that Saturn is the most difficult planet. And the thing that's really interesting about Marie Antoinette's biography is that she got married to her husband, who was the future king, and then he had some sort of issue, it's sometimes speculated, like a medical issue that might have made it painful for him to have sex. And as a result of that, they didn't have sex for years, or didn't have. I should say they didn't have a child for years. And that was one of the primary things that marriage was supposed to produce at that point in time, was an heir to the throne. And so her identity, it caused a lot of bad things and pressure for her because her identity was partially wrapped up in that and became partially wrapped up in them not being able to have children or her not being able to carry his children.
- [04:01]
A
Right. Essentially, with the ruler of the fifth. And the first part of the point of her life after she married was that she was supposed to produce a child. And that was a primary part of her basic identity to other people anyway. And you can see that opposition to Saturn in the seventh house with regard to her. Her husband having some sort of difficulties that made it such that they didn't have a child for like seven or so more years, which was not really normal at the time. It's also interesting, though, that the ruler of the fifth and the first, and she was simultaneously known as someone who really loved pleasure. Right, right.
- [04:44]
B
And throwing parties.
- [04:45]
A
Mm. Throwing parties. And that was part of one of the things that she got in trouble with, you know, eventually, at the time, in terms of the greater population, was like, she was as, like frivolously wasting the money.
- [05:00]
B
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. Just in terms of that and the public perception of that. And then even when they did have children, eventually, I think after like, seven years, it took seven years eventually, which is interesting because that's like a Saturn square for them to have their first child. She experienced two miscarriages and also the loss of two of her children in infancy due to childhood illness. As well as later a loss of another child who was imprisoned and died of tuberculosis probably much later. So it's like there's just a lot of really challenging stuff here involving children. But because the ruler of the Ascendant is wrapped up in the first house, it becomes part of her identity in some sense. So it's kind of tricky.
- [05:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that one makes sense.
- [05:57]
B
Yeah, So I think those are the main ones about that one. So to keep things moving, since we have more than like 50 chart examples today, we'll move on, even though there's more that could be said. All right, so the next birth chart example I want to use is for Dr. Ruth Westheimer, who was known in popular culture as Dr. Ruth, as like a. She would give sex advice, especially on radio shows and other interviews and things like that. Especially in the 1990s when I grew up. She's just a really famous sex oriented doctor. But it was funny because she was a much older woman at that point in time. So she was an old lady. But she was sometimes talking. She had no reservations about talking about intimate stuff. And so sometimes it was kind of wild seeing this old lady, like talking about different sexual things like that or sex toys or what have you.
- [06:59]
A
Right. So she had Gemini rising with the ruler of the fifth, which is Libra, Venus in Gemini on the ascendant. Pretty close to the Ascendant in the first house in what looks like to be a night chart, although the sun's getting close to the Ascendant. But yeah, it's really perfect. She had a 1980 New York radio call in show called Sexually Speaking, and it became nationally syndicated due to its popularity. And yeah, you're right, she was an older lady at the time that she became super famous. She was also really tiny. She was very short. And so it looked really funny to have this tiny old woman who was just very enthusiastically and freely talking about sex and giving advice about that.
- [07:41]
B
Yeah, yeah. So Libra's on the fifth house and Venus is really in the fifth house. And it's placed almost very close to the degree of the Ascendant. But it's like she had Mercury ruling the Ascendant and it's in cancer conjunct Pluto and squaring Mars. So that's like her very open communication style where she didn't hold back or anything like that. And she didn't avoid going into darker topics or other things like that, or taboo topics, I should say. But I just thought it was funny that her identity very much became wrapped up in her talking about sex and just having the ruler of the fifth in Gemini conjunct the degree of the ascendant.
- [08:22]
A
Absolutely.
- [08:23]
B
Yeah. All right, so moving on to my next example. The next one's a more recent example from social media. And this is the birth chart of Dan Bilzerian, who's like a famous, primarily Instagram person who has millions of followers on Instagram over the past decade. And he's known as kind of a playboy or something like that, where a large part of his media Persona is that he, like constantly has women around him, like 20 different women around him. In the last example, we talked about Wilt Chamberlain, who reported in his biography with the ruler of the ascendant and the fifth that he had sex with over 20,000 women. And this guy, Dan Bilzerian is kind of like the modern equivalent of that, even though I don't know what the numbers are. But in terms of his public perception that he puts out there and his identity is wrapped up in a large part of it is that he constantly has a lot of women around and that he is constantly throwing these lavish parties, which sounds like a minor point, but it was a recurring theme that kept coming up with the fifth house is parties and people throwing parties. So he has Libra rising and he has Aquarius on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler is Saturn, which is conjunct the degree of the ascendant at 8 degrees of Libra is Saturn, and 7 degrees of Libra is the Ascendant. And then Jupiter is at 6 degrees of Libra, so it's a triple conjunction right there. And what's interesting about this is his sun is in the third house. So this is a night chart. So Saturn is also his most challenging or his most difficult planet. And previously we talked about how he's reported to be worth a lot of money and he claimed to have won it from poker. And that's one of the major things that he does do, is play poker against very high stakes games, which is interesting in terms of the fifth house. But then it's kind of tricky because we talked about in the fourth house episode how the ruler of the fifth is also the ruler of the fourth. And there were questions about what his father went to jail at one point for financial crimes, and there were questions at one point whether his father had set aside a bunch of money for him and if he had inherited some of that at some point. But it's not really clear if that's the case or not. But it's been speculated on so that's a relevant piece. There's a poker piece, there's a partying, very lavish, huge parties piece. And then the final piece is that with Saturn being contrary to the sect conjunct the degree of the ascendant as the most difficult planet. When he was in his 20s, he was partying so hard that he was also taking drugs. And then one night he was doing cocaine and he was partying and having sex with many different people. And then he took Viagra and it caused him to have two different heart attacks, I think in the same night or in the same 24 hour period or something like that. So he literally almost died, almost killed himself from one partying too hard and then also from things related to sex. Nearly dying while one was having sex.
- [11:49]
A
I was gonna say that's hilarious. I mean, of course not good for anyone to have a heart attack and die, but the circumstances are just very like Ruler V on the ascendant as the maleficant dissect, even though it is exalted. So maybe that's part of him not in fact dying.
- [12:06]
B
Yeah, that there's some mitigation I actually looked for when I was researching the fifth and eighth house connections, like people that died with sex. And I only found one of them. I'm sure there's many more out there, but I wasn't able to find any time charts. So let me know if anybody knows any good time charts for that. But this person came somewhat close, I guess, at that point. So that's the closest we got.
- [12:29]
A
We do have one in the eighth house section, I think.
- [12:31]
B
Okay. Yeah, so that's the symbolism there. But with the ruler of the fifth in the first house. The first house is the body and the physical vitality. That there could be a challenge to the vitality related to fifth house matters. And that was part of what came up with him.
- [12:47]
A
Yep.
- [12:48]
B
All right, so that is that example and moving on to my next one, which is. Right, Gianna Jensen. So now we move into a different sort of tone with things. So this is the birth chart of Gianna Jensen and this is one that I found years ago on Astra Databank that I've always been fascinated by for multiple reasons in terms of the placements. But Gianna Jessen is an anti abortion activist and she was born during a failed late term abortion attempt, basically. And as a result of that, she grew up and then became an anti abortion activist, basically. And that's part of her identity is very much wrapped up in that. So there's several different Things going on here in the chart. I mean, one of them that's really important is that the chart is Aries rising and the ruler of the Ascendant is Mars in the 12th House. And going back to the 6th century with Rhetorius of Egypt, he says that the 12th House is matters that happen prior to birth, especially in the process of giving birth, because that sign was the sign that was rising an hour or two before the person was born. So it's really interesting that the ruler of the Ascendant, the planet that says something about the native's overall focus and life direction, is in the house that represents matters that were happening as you were being born or brought into the world, essentially. And it's like Mars and a day chart there in the 12th house. So that's very relevant. But the other piece to this is she has Aries rising and Leo is the fifth whole sign house, and Saturn is placed there. And then the ruler of the fifth house is the sun, which is at 16 degrees of Aries in the first whole sign house, conjunct a retrograde Venus, also at 16 degrees of Aries. So it's like the ruler of the 5th House of Children and pregnancy and childbirth and all this other stuff is in the first house of identity. And therefore her identity has become wrapped up in her views about abortion and things like that.
- [15:09]
A
Right, yeah. And as we'll see later, it's interesting, you can see both pro and anti abortion people who make that a prominent part of their lives with fifth house connections. Like important fifth house connections.
- [15:22]
B
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's really important regardless of what your views are or exploring that in terms of that. I wouldn't agree with this person politically, but you could see where they, in terms of their personal story are coming from and how their chart speaks to that. And it's interesting then as a case study to understand that as a different aspect of the fifth house that sort of comes into play.
- [15:47]
A
Mm, for sure. Yeah. And she is Mars ruling the ascendant in the 12th, as you said. And there's other people that we've seen the charts of who there was a similar story where their mother wanted to get an abortion or something like that, but then didn't or couldn't. And a bunch of them had the Ascendant ruler in the 12th. Even if it wasn't Mars, it's still an interesting sort of negation of the life force as part of the life story.
- [16:15]
B
Right. Or just that that was a potential before birth or something like that. I mean, there's other things going on here as well, like the ruler of the fourth is in the eighth, and so on and so forth. But anyway, to keep things moving, let's move on to our next chart here. Otherwise, we're gonna be here the next few days. The next One is Norma McCorvey, right?
- [16:36]
A
Yes. And that is the one. We were sitting there sort of brainstorming at various points while we were doing this research, and I was suddenly like, oh, do we have the chart of the Roe v. Wade woman? And somehow there's a timed chart. So Norma McCorvey was the plaintiff at the center of the Roe v. Wade case that for about 50 years legalized abortion in the United States. And then it got overturned a few years ago. Yeah. She's Scorpio rising. And she has Jupiter ruling the fifth house of Pisces, placed in Scorpio in the first house, just about 4 degrees from the ascendant. And so she's another ruler of the fifth in the first example, where you can see that as the plaintiff of the Roe v. Wade case, even if she did other things in her life, what became central to who she was known as, as her identity was like, very connected with fifth house reproductive topics. Right. Reproductive rights. And later, supposedly she became religious and anti abortion. But then at the end of her life, she said she was being paid for that. And she actually still held views in line with abortion rights, which was very strange. And I noticed when I read that, that Jupiter rules in her chart not only the fifth house, but also the second house placed in the first. And I was like, that's actually plausible that she was being paid for that, because in some way, the houses in the chart that are ruled by the same planet are often connected somehow at some point in the life. Anyway, she did notably change her story at different times. And you noticed when we were talking about this that she has a Mercury neptune kind of seven degree conjunction in the 12th house.
- [18:17]
B
Yeah. There was just a lot of story changes when I was reading the Wikipedia biography.
- [18:23]
A
Right. But nonetheless, as the ruler of the fifth and the first, and things about reproductive rights, pro abortion, anti abortion, those just became very primary to her life story.
- [18:37]
B
Yeah. So her identity became wrapped up in this case. And then the thing about the case was that she wanted to have an abortion. She was in Texas and was denied, but she ended up having the child. So the child in the Roe v. Wade case, which I didn't realize until we were researching this, was actually born. And that's a chart that we'll look at later that's also very relevant. But in terms of. It's just crazy that one of the biggest landmark cases in the United States of the 20th century involving abortion and the right to abortion and whether a pregnancy essentially can be aborted and if a person has the choice to do so. And then the courts decided, at least at that point, that they did it was a matter of personal choice. Has the ruler of the 5th House of Children and Pregnancy in the 1st House of Self and identity. And you in the chart, basically.
- [19:30]
A
Right. And just to put a point further, you know, oftentimes if you look at the house ruler placement and then you look at the ruler of that placement to see further pieces of the story. And in fact, hers is the ruler of the 5th House of Children and reproduction is that Jupiter and Scorpion the first. And that in turn is ruled by Mars in cancer in the 9th House of the legal system. So it really connects those three topics very neatly.
- [19:56]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [19:57]
A
Known as the plaintiff in a landmark Supreme Court case.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah, we'll see legal stuff come up a lot with the ninth house as a recurring theme throughout these rulers of the houses. And this one with Mars in the ninth house in a day chart is a good early example of that. All right, so let's move on. So the next one we're gonna look at briefly is just the birth chart of Linda Goodman. And Linda Goodman was a famous astrologer in the middle of the 20th century who wrote the book Sun Signs. And it became wildly popular. But then her follow up book that she was paid a massive amount of money at the time, millions of dollars for to write a follow up book is she wrote a book called Love Signs, which also became a wildly popular and influential book. And I just thought that was amazing because she was born with Aries rising and Leo on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler of the fifth house is the sun, which is exalted there in the first house in Aries conjunct Venus. And she becomes known partially for this book called Love Signs, which is about synastry or relationship compatibility between zodiac signs. But it really drives home a theme we were seeing a lot yesterday that we kind of ended the last episode on with the ruler of the Ascendant, where you had people like bell hooks with the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth. Developing a thesis across multiple books about the importance of love and redefining love and what that means and that being something that could help society, basically. But we'll also see a recurring theme in other charts like here of the concept of love being tied in with a person's self identity with the ruler of the fifth in the first.
- [21:48]
A
Definitely. Yeah. And I think her love, I mean, I don't know stats on this, but I think her Love Signs book is more the enduring thing that people now know her for. Between the two.
- [21:58]
B
Okay.
- [21:59]
A
It seems like to me, anyway, just casually talking to people. It's also really funny that the ruler of her fifth in the first is closely applying to the ruler of the ninth house, which is astrology in the tenth house of career. It's like Jupiter in a day chart.
- [22:13]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [22:14]
A
Connecting her astrological career with the topic of love.
- [22:19]
B
Yeah. And then she was paid an industry record of $2.3 million for the paperback rights to Love Signs, which at the time was just a massive amount of money for a book, especially for an astrology book. And I think those books were some of the highest selling astrology books, at least in modern times. In the 20th century.
- [22:42]
A
Yeah. I want to say I think we used her in either the second or third house episode because she has the ruler of the third in the second.
- [22:48]
B
Yeah, she has the ruler of the ascendant and the third. And I often use her as an example of like a writer. But you write it might be the ruler of the second and the first as well. Or.
- [22:59]
A
Yeah, any of those.
- [23:02]
B
Anyway, she did have a difficult thing surrounding her child. But I think I'm gonna skip that for now. Cause this is sufficient for the main point of this example. All right. The next example I wanted to talk about that I found recently was the birth chart of Chaz Bono. So Chaz Bono is an American writer, musician and actor. And his parents are the entertainer Sonny Bono and Cher, and initially became widely known in appearances as a child on their television show, the Sonny and Cher Comedy Hour. But for our purposes in the chart I should describe really quickly is Sagittarius rising with a Venus Saturn conjunction in the same degree at 23 degrees of Aries in the fifth house. And the north node is also in the fifth house. And then the ruler of the fifth house is Mars, which is placed in early Sagittarius in the first whole sign house. So it's like the ruler of the planet that rules the fifth house of sex and sexuality is in the first house of self and identity. And Chazbono is a trans man. Identifies as a trans man now, but in 1995, when still presenting as a woman. And in the earlier 1990s. Actually, it was in 1990, Chaz Bono who was identifying as a woman at the time, was forcibly outed as a lesbian in 1990 by a tabloid. So it was a tabloid article. And the Star tabloid basically outed them as being into women and having same sex relationships, which was much more taboo and potentially problematic to be outed like that forcibly at the time in 1990. What was interesting I noticed is that there was a Venus Saturn conjunction happening at that time, which is a recurrence transit for them. So it's like they were born on a Venus Saturn conjunction and then they were outed on a Venus Saturn conjunction. And then what happened is that five years later, in April of 1995, Chaz Bono decided to come out as a lesbian at that time, deliberately, after ignoring and not responding to those rumors for about five years. They did a cover story in the Advocate, which is a famous LGBT magazine at that point in time. And what was wild that I noticed is that Venus and Saturn were again conjunct in the sky at that time in the sign of Pisces. So it was another recurrence transit, like five years later when they came out, and that time it was them doing so and sort of taking things into their own hands. So I want to point that out, just because it was something about the person's identity being wrapped up in their sexual orientation to a certain extent. And then because it was Mars as part of it, there's different things going on. But because it was Mars and because also you had Venus conjunct Saturn in the fifth, there were issues of being forcibly, you know, outed versus like taking that into your own hands and coming out deliberately.
- [26:29]
A
Yeah, for sure. And he wrote a book later called the End of Innocence, a memoir where he recounted, like, the distress and emotional turmoil the outing caused him. And of course, the ruler of the third house of sort of like print media and, you know, that sort of thing. I think tabloids would arguably go in the third house. Is that Saturn in a night chart in the fifth house, and then that being in turn ruled by Mars, the other molest traffic in the first house of identity. So I think that very elegantly speaks to what happened there and his story about it later.
- [27:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I want to use that as an example of not just the ruler of the fifth and the first, but also having the most positive planet and the most. Because it's a night chart, the most positive planet and the most negative planet in the same sign in the fifth house, and having some really difficult things happen in terms of that, but then also having some really positive Things as well, because then they subsequently became a notable advocate for LGBTQ issues, for sure. Yeah. All right, so let's see. Moving on. The next example chart is one we mentioned in the second House episode, but it's the birth chart of McKinsey Scott, who was the former wife of Amazon.com CEO Jeff Bezos. And she helped him essentially, to found the company and to get the company started for a number of years, especially early on. But then in the past few years, he left her and they got a divorce, and now he's with somebody else, but the assets were split, and she got billions of dollars in the divorce. And then she famously started donating billions and billions of dollars to philanthropic causes shortly after the divorce. And I thought that was really interesting because on the one hand, while we used her as an example of somebody since she was born with Aries rising and Mars in Taurus in the second house, as well as a whole stellium of planets in the second house, including Mercury, Venus, Moon, Saturn, lot of fortune, and Mars. Huge stellium in the second house. The ruler of the fifth house since Leo's on the fifth house is the sun, which is placed in her first house of identity. And it's exalted in the sign of Aries, which, as I talked about in the last episode, when a planet's in its exaltation, it raises it up so that it manifests the highest version of whatever it is that that person chooses to do. And in this instance, because it's ruling the fifth house, one of the significations of the fifth House, that really goes back to Vettius Valens, but we've seen in other authors as well, is philanthropy, like good doing or doing positive things and helping other people out in the world, is connected partially with the fifth House. And what we see with her is she's one of the biggest philanthropists, and that's wrapped up now in her identity when people think of her.
- [29:44]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's funny, I remember when we did the Second House episode that I noted you'd have the Mars in the second is just spending a lot, and usually that's more problematic. But she has a night. No, she has a day chart. But in her case, it's like spending a lot for good purposes, which I think the ruler of the fifth being exalted in the first fills out that piece of part of why that is, at least. It's also interesting. I looked up the biggest recipients of her philanthropy, and one of them is the Girl Scouts of America. So it's like a children piece as well.
- [30:20]
B
Nice. Yeah. Donating to children's groups. That's great.
- [30:23]
A
Yeah.
- [30:25]
B
So as of late 2024, she'd given a total of $19 billion to over 1600 charitable organizations. So just to give you some idea of the scope of things. All right, so that's good. And then one last example I wanted to mention here is one I mentioned in the last episode. But this is the birth chart of Kevin Hart, who's one of the most famous comedians over the course of the past, I don't know, 10 or 15 years. And what we talked about was just how having Virgo rising and having Saturn ruling the fifth house of fun and games and comedy. He has the ruler of the fifth house in the first house conjunct the degree of the ascendant, where Saturn is at 9 degrees of Virgo and the Ascendant is at 7 degrees of Virgo. And major recurring theme is that his act often focuses on self deprecating humor. So I just wanted to bring this up again because that's one of the really interesting manifestations I discovered where sometimes the first house represents self in the chart and it represents you. And sometimes that can be hard to figure out what that means when the ruler of another house is in the first house of self. But this is a really literal example of it, which is that he is often making jokes about himself in his comedy routine. So there's a self deprecating humor to it, which is both Saturn but also Virgo to some extent as well.
- [32:00]
A
Right. I was thinking that as well, because both of them can kind of go that way. Saturn and Virgo separately.
- [32:06]
B
Right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So that was the last one I wanted to mention there. And let me just do. Actually let me do one more. I'm gonna pull out from our other one, which is Donatella Versace. It's a good one because it ties in with our other examples from the previous ones. So this is where the name is often involved. So this is Donatella Versace, who has Taurus rising and the moon in Virgo in the fifth whole sign house. And then the ruler of the fifth house is Mercury, which is in Taurus in the first whole sign house along with the sun. And she's a famous fashion designer of the Versace fashion empire. I think I talked about previously in another episode on the third house, how she took over especially from her brother after her brother was murdered in the 1990s. But her name, she's really led after that after she took over in the 1990s, she led the Versace fashion empire to new heights and continued to make the family name Versace a trademark that's associated with luxury and fashion and all of those other things.
- [33:21]
A
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. It's really funny when it's as literal as, like, names being part of the identity, showing up with the first house.
- [33:28]
B
Yeah. And that's why I wanted to squeeze this one in here really quickly, just because that was a recurring theme in several other examples throughout this series, where we had Maria Montessori having the ruler of the third house in the first house. And it was like children's schools now are named after her. Or the founder of Ferrari Cars had the ruler, ruler of the third house and the first house, and Ferrari is now a name that's associated with cars. So this is just a continuation of that theme.
- [34:02]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [34:04]
B
Yeah. All right, well, that's it for the first house. Shall we move on to the second house?
- [34:09]
A
Yes, let's.
- [34:11]
B
The first example in the second house is the birth chart of Heidi Fleiss, who became famous in the 1990s for running an escort service in Hollywood that was connected to high clienteles of people in Hollywood and in that area. And she was born with Aquarius Rising. And the second house is Pisces, and it's ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in Gemini in the fifth whole sign house, which is the place of sex and sexuality. So one of the things about this. And there's multiple things going on because it's like Jupiter's also ruling the 11th House and other things like that. But one of the things is just in this instance, when there's a connection between the second house of money and finances and the fifth house of sex, that sometimes sex work and things related to it can come into play in some instances.
- [35:06]
A
Right. So, yeah, she became known as the Hollywood Madame, and she basically ran an upscale prostitution ring based in la.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. So shout out to Camille Michelle Grey. I've used this as an example before, but shout out to Camille for the research notes. Yeah, so that's it. But there's actually a few like that. So our next example is Annie Sprinkle, who has Libra Rising. And the fifth house is Aquarius, and it's ruled by Saturn, which is in the second house of finances. And any Sprinkle, it's a sort of similar case of somebody that's worked with sex work and sex education and different things like that.
- [36:01]
A
Right, yeah. So she was known as the prostitute and porn star that then turned into a sex educator. And artist. She's done, basically, I don't know, just about anything you could do with fifth house sexuality. So she's an American certified sexologist, performance artist, former sex worker, filmmaker, and advocate for the decriminalization of sex work. And she's known as the first porn star to get a doctoral degree earning a Doctor of Philosophy on Human sexuality. And she has also produced feminist and queer pornographic content, so focused more on pornography based on women's desires or understanding of female genitalia even.
- [36:47]
B
Yeah. So it's a pretty good example just in terms of tying in the second house and sex, but also that there's just a full range of what that can mean in terms of how that can manifest in different ways.
- [37:04]
A
Yeah, it's interesting. Hers, she has that Saturn. She has Saturn ruling the fifth, but then it's getting. Overcoming aspects from both Venus and Jupiter by sign. Venus in Virgo and Jupiter exalted in cancer in the 10th. And I think that's part of why her fifth house realm has become so elevated. She's really known for that. And speaking to your recurring theme about exalted planets.
- [37:34]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Did you already read that part? But one of the things I saw in the Wikipedia biography was that in 1996, she became the first known porn star to get a doctoral degree, earning a Doctor of Philosophy in Human Sexuality from the Institute of Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco.
- [37:52]
A
Yes.
- [37:53]
B
Okay.
- [37:55]
A
And she also appeared in almost 200 films, including hard and softcore pornography, B movies, loops, and numerous documentaries. So partly exemplifying the fifth house of sexuality, but also media production and videos and so forth.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah. So anyway, so just example, very straightforward of at least one piece of that is just when your finances are tied in with sex and sexuality.
- [38:24]
A
Absolutely.
- [38:26]
B
All right, moving on. The next one I found, which is in a similar vein, is the birth chart of John Holmes.
- [38:36]
A
He was a prolific American porn star from the 1970s. He became famous enough to be the subject of the film Boogie Nights, some people may remember. So he has the ruler of the fifth house, sexuality, in the second house of income and livelihood, Saturn in the fifth. Do you have the chart yet? So Saturn's gonna be in the fifth house in a night chart as well. And he did later die of AIDS related illness. And so that would be like. Even though he had the connection between the fifth house of sexuality and the second house of income or livelihood, he also had the malefic contradicted sect in the fifth house. And eventually that was part of his life story as well. Something very Negative related to sex.
- [39:23]
B
Yeah. So here's the chart. It should be Pisces rising with cancer on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler is the moon, which is in the second house. And so that's the connection between the fifth and the second and just making a living basically from doing sexual related things, doing pornography and having sex on camera. And then you were talking about Saturn in the fifth house in the night chart.
- [39:53]
A
Right. And just, you know, having a very negative outcome, at least at one point in the life with regard to sexuality and so contracting HIV from sex.
- [40:04]
B
Right? Yeah. All right, let me see what our next example is.
- [40:10]
A
I think it's Rock Hudson.
- [40:13]
B
Yeah. So our next example is Rock Hudson and this is the birth chart. He had Libra rising and Aquarius on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler is Saturn, which is placed in Scorpio in the second house along with the sun and Mars. And Rock Hudson was a famous Hollywood actor who was gay in the 1950s in that sort of time frame really early on. But I wanted to use this example because what happened is that in the mid-1980s he got AIDS and died. But he came out, I believe, and it became known that he was gay at that time. But earlier in his life there were fears basically where he was a big Hollywood actor, but he had to stay in the closet because if he didn't his livelihood would have been threatened. Basically he would have lost his livelihood and ability to make income as an actor if he had been outed at that time. So I wanted to bring this up because sometimes Saturn can represent fear. In modern psychological astrology, that's commonly talked about as Saturn representing fears. And in this instance he would have had major fears concerning sex and sexuality becoming known because it would have directly impacted his ability to make a living. And I think this is tied in with Saturn ruling the fifth house of sex and sexuality and placed in the second night chart. And it's interesting because Saturn is also very close to the sun. So it's under the beams, which brings traditionally a hidden element to planets that are under the beams within 15 degrees of the sun. And that's part of, I think, what was going on there in his chart.
- [42:09]
A
Yeah, for sure. And it was a well founded fear. I mean, because at the height of his fame it was in the 50s and 60s, Hollywood operated kind of like under an unwritten. The period was often called a lavender scare. Scare. Scare, sorry. Which kind of paralleled the anti communist red scare. So in the film industry, you know, people's actors, Personas were Kind of carefully cultivated and controlled to be sure that it. You know, they exemplified, like, all American values. Right. And that did not include being queer at the time. And so he was actually known as, like, this rugged heterosexual guy as his, like, film Persona.
- [42:50]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [42:51]
A
So I was just gonna say one more thing. You know, it's interesting that it's the ruler of the fifth and the ruler of the fourth in the second. Right. Because we've talked about the fourth house previously as hidden things. And so it was kind of tying together those two things. And he also has Venus in the fourth. So just sort of echoes of the same issue.
- [43:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely. With the ruler of the ascendant in the fourth, as well as Saturn ruling the fourth. Because we talked extensively in the fourth House episode about hidden things. And the fourth being the most hidden part of the chart because it's directly below your feet under the earth.
- [43:28]
A
Right. So that can literally tie together those two topics of sexuality and his acting with hiddenness. Something hidden.
- [43:36]
B
Yeah, definitely. All right, so let's keep moving. Another contemporary example in a different area is the birth chart of Rupert Murdoch, who is a famous media mogul that runs, like, Fox News and other things like that. But he has Capricorn rising, Taurus on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler of the fifth house is Venus, which is placed in the second house in a night chart. So there's a connection between the ruler of the fifth house of children and the second house of finances. And what was interesting is there's been this court case for years where his children have been battling in court over the trust and who will inherit his media empire basically after he dies and his children have been fighting with each other over it. And I'd been, I think, using that as an example for a while, because that's been ongoing for a while at this point. But I think it was just recently settled. I saw a headline in the news a few days ago that his main son, who's politically or ideologically on the same page as him, is going to be the main one that takes over. And his other children have agreed to some settlement of only a paltry billion dollars or something like that.
- [44:58]
A
Only, yeah, yeah. Sad sacks. Too bad for them.
- [45:02]
B
I mean, sometimes you gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just get by with what little.
- [45:09]
A
With one billion.
- [45:10]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [45:12]
A
Well, it's funny, too, that. I mean, obviously the children piece is very relevant here, but also just the basic premise that he's earned his income through media. Right. And it's like the ruler of the 5th and 10th in the second house as the benefic of sect.
- [45:28]
B
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so let's see. Moving on to the next chart. One of the classic ones I've been using for over a decade now in my Hellenistic course, which I originally researched when I was researching the rulers of the houses for some lectures I have in my Hellenistic astrology course about. This is the birth chart of Dr. Dre, who is a famous rapper and music producer. And he was born with Gemini rising. And Cancer is the second house of finances, and it's ruled by the moon, which is placed in the fifth whole sign house in Libra. And it's applying to this really nice trine with Venus with reception, which is really improving and what we call bonifying the condition of Venus and affirming it and making it super lucky and successful. And at one point he started a headphone company, which was Beats Electronics or Beats Headphones, and then they sold it to Apple at one point for a billion dollars or some crazy amount of money. And for a period of time, I think it made him the richest musician in the world for a period of time.
- [46:40]
A
Wow. Yeah, that's very literal. Not just making a living, but also an object or a product related to fifth house things like listening to music and that not just applying to Venus with reception, improving its quality, but that Venus also being on the midheaven of career.
- [46:56]
B
Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly. So that's a really positive example of good financial things coming from fifth house things.
- [47:07]
A
Definitely.
- [47:08]
B
All right, so moving on. The next example is Barbara Cartland, Right?
- [47:13]
A
Yeah. I found her when I was searching for rulers and houses. And she has Aries rising and the fifth house is Leo, with Venus placed in Leo in the fifth house in a night chart. And then, right. The second house is Taurus. So she has the ruler of the second in the fifth, which is the benefic of sect by night. And she was an English writer who published both contemporary and historical romance novels. And so it's not just that she earned her living through creative output, which she did and is very relevant to that placement, but also, literally, the topic of romance is like how she made a living, which is another fifth house signification. I also thought, as an aside, it was funny that she also has that ruler of the fourth house of Cancer. The moon is in Aries conjunct the ascendant in the first house. And I think that's the historical piece. She had a personal focus on historical stories as well as contemporary. So she's one of the best Selling authors worldwide of the 20th century. Actually, it's just testament to my not reading romance novels that I didn't know that before finding her chart. But she wrote 723 novels, incredibly. And she sold more than 750 million copies of her books, though some other sources estimate her total sales at more than 2 billion. So it's just a really great example of both. One, that her livelihood was connected to that creative artistic output, but also literally the topic of romance as the fifth house.
- [48:49]
B
Yeah, that's perfect. I love that. Yeah, brilliant. All right, great example. So there are just two I wanted to mention really briefly in this section, because one of them is Renoir, Pierre Auguste Renoir, who's a famous artist. And he has Aquarius rising. Gemini is the fifth whole sign house that Mercury is the ruler of the fifth house of. Of creativity and art and creation. And it's in the second house of finances. And it has this overcoming square, this superior square from Jupiter, which is in Sagittarius. And I wanted to contrast his chart as an artist with the chart of Claude Debussy, who's another famous artist from late 19th or early 20th century, who had Leo rising Sagittarius on the fifth house ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in the second house of finances. But it's conjunct Saturn. So it's like not as well off. And it's like two instances of famous artists who tried to make a living from their art, basically, and from creativity. And what was interesting is that Renoir was more successful basically in making a living from his art during his lifetime and achieving financial stability through having commercial success and wealth during his lifetime. Whereas Debussy's financial situation was much more precarious in terms of his financial success from his artwork in his lifetime. And it's partially reflected there just by the auspiciousness or inauspiciousness of certain placements that are having more affirming significations through the aspects or having more challenging significations through the aspects. So I wanted to mention that as part of a broader topic that people could think about or pay attention to sometimes is that distinction of an artist who becomes financially successful or let's say is fortunate or becomes lucky in becoming financially successful in creating their work versus another artist who struggles to or isn't able to make a living doing their art or what have you.
- [51:29]
A
Yeah, that's a great comparison. Nice find. Yeah, because the first one was much more affirmed. And then here with the Saturn conjunction. Saturn indicating delays or blockages. So it's like the same setup otherwise, but definitely altered by the aspects.
- [51:46]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. I think that's good for the second house, then. So shall we move on?
- [51:53]
A
Yes, let's.
- [51:55]
B
Cool. All right, so now we move on to the third house. And one of the first examples I wanted to share, that I already shared yesterday, was the birth chart of Jake Gillen Hall, Jake Gyllenhaal, who was born with Leo rising. He's an actor. And the ruler of the ascendant is the sun, which is in Sagittarius in the fifth house, along with the stellium of Venus, Mercury, and Neptune and the sun in the fifth house. But what's interesting is the ruler of the fifth house is Jupiter, which is in Libra in the third whole sign house. And then the ruler of the third house is Venus, which is in Sagittarius in the fifth house. So he actually has a mutual reception between the rulers of the third and the fifth house, which, as we've seen in other installments in the Houses series, always creates a very strong connection between those two houses when there's a mutual reception or when the two planets are exchanging signs. And sometimes it becomes a distinctive part of the life, those two houses having a connection. And for him, what it was is that he grew up and he had an older sister named Maggie who got into acting before he did. And he reportedly said that part of his own inspiration for getting into acting was kind of seeing how much joy that his sister had in acting and that it inspired him to follow in her footsteps or in her path. And eventually they actually appeared in three different films together, including the culture sort of hit Donnie Darko, where they actually played siblings in that movie.
- [53:36]
A
Yeah, that's great. That's an amazing, really strong connection between those two houses. That really stands out.
- [53:43]
B
Yeah. All right, so that is that example. And then moving on, one of my favorite examples that I found during this research project, just out of all of the rulers of the houses ones, is Serena Williams, who's a famous tennis player, like the leading tennis player in the world at one point in time, the number one tennis player. And she was born with Taurus rising. And the fifth house is Virgo. And the only planet we find in the fifth house is the moon there in the fifth house in a night chart. So it's actually the sect light which makes it the more important luminary. And what's so fascinating is the moon is ruling the third house of siblings, and the IC is also placed in the third house. And what happened is that her Parents, and especially her father, raised both her and her sister, Serena and Venus Williams to play tennis. And he had this entire, what was it, like, 78 page outline of a plan to make them the number one tennis players in the world. And so the two parents trained the two siblings in tennis together, which is like the IC and the third house of siblings. So it's importing fourth house parents and family significations into the third house of siblings. And then the ruler of that is the moon, which is in the fifth house of games and sports and things like that. And then, of course, Serena Williams would go on to become the number. Well, on the one hand, her older sister Venus was the one that got into the professional sport first. And Serena often talks about following the path that her sister had already laid out for her essentially, or had been a trailblazer in and making it possible and following in her footsteps. And then eventually the two of them would go on to be the number one and number two players so that they eventually would compete against each other. And I think in the final count, Serena ended up becoming the number one player in the world and sort of winning out in the total number of matches. But I was just really impressed by how the third house of siblings and the IC representing parents was tied in with the fifth house of games and sports in a very literal way in this chart.
- [56:08]
A
Yeah, really perfect combination of chart factors. And there was this lovely quote by Serena that said there would be no Serena if there wasn't a Venus. She burst open that door and I ran through. And it's just such a perfect and literal illustration of that ruler of the third in the fifth ruler of the third of siblings being the fifth house of games and sports, and that being the important sect light in the chart. So it's really just primary to her life story that her sister did this first, right?
- [56:41]
B
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And you and I watched that Will Smith movie, King Richard from a few years ago that was about this. So you can kind of watch like a dramatization of their life story and centered on their father and mother being the ones raising them to play tennis. And it's just very literal and vivid. It was actually a really good movie like, demonstration of that chart placement.
- [57:11]
A
Right. And there was actually this interesting point that, you know, we didn't know to what extent this happened in real life, but where Venus was kind of taken for coaching first and they could only pay for one child for professional coaching after the father initially got them started. And so Venus was into being coached by the professional Coach. And Serena was kind of, like, not happy about being left behind. And her mom was the one who then was coaching her more strongly for at least some period of time. And we were both wondering about that cancer IC being ruled by the moon in the fifth house and to what extent that was actually her mom having even a stronger influence on her career.
- [57:55]
B
Right? For sure. Yeah. And then what was cool about also that movie is like, Serena has the ruler of the third and the IC and the fifth. But then the star of the movie was Will Smith, who was playing their father raising his daughters and other children. And he, as we talked about in the last episode, probably has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth, and he won an Oscar for that role, playing the role of the father, raising the two biggest tennis champions in the world. And then at the end of the movie, the movie ends with a Beyonce song that starts playing. And Beyonce, as we saw in the last episode, has the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth house. So it's just like, fifth house people all the way down.
- [58:42]
A
Yeah, we were laughing about that as we were watching it. Especially at the end, we're like, more fifth house, more.
- [58:48]
B
Right? Yeah. And it was also a song that was made specifically for the movie by Beyonce, which was additionally cool. All right, so let's move on. My next one is Ben Affleck. Here is the birth chart. So Ben Affleck was born with cancer rising, and Scorpio is the fifth whole sign house where we find the moon. So he actually has the ruler of the ascendant in the fifth house, and he's a famous actor and has become a famous actor. But what I found was interesting about his chart is that he has the ruler of the fifth house is Mars, which is placed in the third house, which is like, as we talked about in the third house episode, the third house is siblings, but it's also friends. It's your local neighborhood and people around your house, in the vicinity of your house and the city around you. And what was fascinating about that is he met his friend Matt Damon when their two mothers, because they lived in the same neighborhood, and their two mothers got together and then put them on a play date together. And so Matt Damon and Ben Affleck became friends, close friends, because they lived in each other's neighborhood, basically. And what was fascinating about that is then they grew up and they first became famous together as a duo, as writing partners, especially because they wrote the script for Good Will Hunting, and then they won the, I think, Academy Award or they won the Oscar, basically, I think, for best screenplay that year.
- [60:26]
A
That's amazing. I didn't know that story about the childhood connection. Childhood neighborhood friend.
- [60:31]
B
Yeah, it was just something that showed up very strongly in the third House episode. That the third House is that the 11th House is not the only house of friends, but that the third house has a relevant friend component as well, especially local friends and ones in your neighborhood or ones that are like childhood friends that you tend to grow up with in the same city or same neighborhood.
- [60:55]
A
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [60:57]
B
That's great. As well as, I guess, actually, more broadly, interestingly, it's also siblings and brothers and people that are like a brother to you, and their relationship has often been likened to that.
- [61:12]
A
That's cool.
- [61:14]
B
All right, so moving on. The next one is the birth chart of Hugh Hefner, who's the founder of Playboy, and he was born with Virgo rising. And Capricorn is the fifth whole sign house, and it's ruled by Saturn, which is in the third house of communication. And he famously founded Playboy magazine, which on the one hand was obviously sex and sexuality and printing, sexual content, basically. But then also what was unique about Playboy in much of the 20th century was that it also had written columns and it tried to also be a literary work to some extent and would have famous writers who would contribute to written pieces and stuff in it as well. And I just thought it was really interesting that he had the ruler of the fifth house of sex and sexuality in the third house of communication.
- [62:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's amazing.
- [62:16]
B
Or like last night, yesterday, we talked about the famous comedian who got his start at the Playboy Club, for example.
- [62:26]
A
Right, yeah. So definitely fifth house content, but. But focused on the third house of printing and writing. And Saturn, again, connecting two houses, it rules the fifth house and the sixth house. So it's like sexuality. And also his job is basically third house.
- [62:46]
B
Yeah, right. And we looked at two charts that were basically like that yesterday that are similar overlap that could just be reiterated briefly. But one of them was Eve Kozofsky Sedgwick, who had cancer rising, the Scorpio fifth house. And then the ruler of the fifth house is Mars, which is in the third house. And she was an academic that wrote a lot about sex and sexuality and sexual orientation and things like that. Right?
- [63:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. That was one of our previous examples, but just bears repeating. There's a bunch of those people like that who have some sort of career writing about sexuality. And so many of them have the ruler of the fifth and the third.
- [63:35]
B
Right. And another One we talked about last night was Carol Ann Duffy, who was born with Virgo rising and Mercury the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth house in Capricorn, along with the sun in Venus. But the ruler of the fifth house is Saturn, which is in Scorpio in the third house. And she became the poet laureate for the UK for over a decade, like the nation's poet, but then also was the first lesbian poet, like open lesbian poet laureate in the history of the country.
- [64:16]
A
Yeah, yeah. Those are both two great, great charts that echo each other. And then I think I mentioned yesterday as well, another in passing, which we didn't have the chart up for, but it was another Ruler of the Fifth and the Third with Adrienne Rich, who wrote Compulsory Heterosexuality, and she was an academic. But this is literally like a written piece of work that just like just decades of university students have been told to read at this point. And this was like a core written thing about sexuality.
- [64:47]
B
Nice. That's perfect. Yeah. All right. And then you had one last example, right?
- [64:52]
A
Yeah. It was T. Barry Brazelton. So he was. So he had the ruler of the fifth is the exalted Moon in the third house. He had Pisces rising and then cancer, fifth house moon ruling that exalted in Taurus in the third house. And this one was just hilariously literal. So he was an American pediatrician, author, and the developer of the Neonatal Behavioral Assessment Scale, which will become important in a moment, used by major hospitals throughout the world. He also hosted a cable television program called what Every Baby Knows and wrote a syndicated newspaper column about this and authored more than 200 scholarly papers and 24 books. Books. So lots of writing basically about fifth house children. His Columbia alumni profile describes him as America's most celebrated and influential baby doctor since Benjamin Spock. And you can see the exalted moon ruling the fifth house. Right. He's known as one of the top people with regard to fifth house topics.
- [66:02]
B
Right?
- [66:04]
A
Yeah.
- [66:04]
B
It's not just like a baby doctor that writes about children and baby related things. It's like one of the top ones in the country.
- [66:14]
A
Yeah, one of the most well known, one of the most prolific, et cetera. But my very favorite thing about this, when I looked it up, was. So one of the major assumptions underlying his Neonatal Behavioral Assessment Scale, which is really widely used now, is that babies communicate through their behavior, which, although it may not always seem like it is a rational language. And this was taken from the Brazelton Institute website. And I was like, oh, that's amazing and perfect. Right. Because it's the babies from the fifth house communicating in the third house, language and communication, but it's the moon, so it's non verbal communication. And I just love the literalness of that.
- [66:57]
B
Yeah, absolutely. That's perfect. So it's literally like you could make a really broad statement with this chart that there may be some connection between the topic of children and the topic of communication, which are two literally first significations for each of those houses. And because the ruler of one is in the other, that there would be a connection between the two. And then if you said that to a client, and that would turn out to be very literally true in his instance.
- [67:27]
A
Yes. Yeah. So that was a great find, I thought.
- [67:32]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And then in our other instances, if you had said to some of the other people that there may be a connection between the topic of sex and sexuality and communication in your life with, I don't know, Hugh Hefner, for example, that would be very literally true in a very real sense. Or to Eve Kozofsky Sedgwick, who wrote about those things academically and so on and so forth.
- [67:58]
A
Right. It's almost like astrology works.
- [68:01]
B
It's almost like it works, but also figuring out what the limits are and how to phrase things in a way that's broad, like understanding the broad possible archetypes and ranges and then getting as close as you can to describing that in concrete terms and then seeing how the specifics work out.
- [68:25]
A
Mm, definitely.
- [68:27]
B
All right, so let's move on to the fourth house and looking at the ruler of the fifth house when it's connected with the fourth house in astrology. The fourth, of course, is the primary house of parents as well as your home and your living situation. So one of the charts we already discussed yesterday is the birth chart of the actress Tori Spelling. So here is her birth chart. Taurus Spelling has Aquarius rising and Saturn is in the fifth whole sign house. And what's interesting about this is the fifth house is Gemini and it's ruled by Mercury, which is placed in the fourth whole sign house. And then the ruler of the fourth whole sign house is Venus, which is placed in Gemini in the fifth whole sign house. And it's conjunct the ic, which has just barely moved into the Gemini into the fifth house. So there's a mutual reception or an exchange of signs between the ruler of the fifth house of creativity and the ruler of the fourth house of parents. And as we talked about yesterday already, so we don't have to go into all of it again, but just. Torrey Spelling is an actress who became prominent through playing a character on the hit TV series 90210 in the early 1990s. But her father was a famous television producer who created the show. So then he cast his daughter in this television series. So right there, sort of directly, there's a connection between the fifth house of creativity and the fourth house of parents in having that connection. And then sometimes this can be discussed or people debate whether this is a case of nepotism, where having a family member in an industry pulling strings for you or what have you. So I just wanted to mention it because, as I said before, when there's a mutual reception or exchange of signs between two houses, it often creates a very strong connection, and it creates something that sometimes becomes very distinctive, a distinctive overlap between those houses and the life in general.
- [70:31]
A
Right, yeah. And an interesting additional layer is that not only was that the connection for her own acting career, but her father, Aaron Spelling, was a very famous American film and television producer. And his production, through his production company, he actually holds the record as the most prolific television producer in American television history. So that's like the real. So it's describing a parent as well as, you know, her acting connection with the parents.
- [71:03]
B
Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. Okay, so that's all I wanted to say about that one. So moving on. Another one that I found that's a more recent example is the birth chart of Margaret Qualy, who was born with Pisces rising and cancer on the fifth whole sign house of creativity and acting. And it's ruled by the moon, which is placed in Gemini in the fourth, fourth whole sign house in a close conjunction with the degree of the IC, with the IC at 21 Gemini and the moon at 18 Gemini. So I didn't know this until I was researching, but Margaret Coelhe's mother is the famous actress Andie McDowell, who was famous from one of my favorite 90s movies was Groundhog Day, and she played the lead in that opposite to Bill Murray's character. And I can see the resemblance now, but I didn't realize that her mother was an actor.
- [72:05]
A
Right, yeah. So those two charts are really similar with the ruler of the fifth and the fourth and having a famous film or TV parent as well as having an acting career themselves.
- [72:20]
B
Yeah. And I was reading about this and some of the stuff on Wikipedia was saying that she's sometimes accused of being like a Nepo baby because of her mother being a well known actress and Coeli has acknowledged the label that people attempt to give her and say, you can call me a Nepo baby. Though she prefers the term second generation actor and feels a strong internal drive to prove her own worth and deserve her place in the industry. And I think she has. I think that's one of the differences here. And that's one of the things where it gets tricky sometimes when people make that, as we were saying yesterday, just like there's that whole idea of apprenticeship and passing down knowledge sometimes from generation to generation. And that sometimes when a person has a parent that does a certain thing, they will follow in that parent's footsteps. And that does sometimes give you an edge just simply as a result of growing up in that environment and starting to learn how to do what your parent does much earlier in life than most other people do if they come to it later on. So I feel like that's more the case here because it seems like in some of her recent stuff, she's proved herself and got, I think, some nominations recently for the substance, for example, which she did a really good job in acting opposite to Demi Moore over the past year. So it seems like she's been proving herself and demonstrating that some of those, those accusations of it just being about nepotism were not necessarily true.
- [73:54]
A
Yeah, it seems like a significant, both pro and con, having a parent in the same industry because of, like you said, getting a leg up potentially earlier than someone else might, but then also having that always hanging over you as like you have to prove yourself. And that it's not just only about that. And that just seems like a little bit of a burden as well.
- [74:12]
B
Right. That it would create a pressure. And then it's like some actors will change their name. I know Nicolas Cage changed his name. Cause he's actually one of the. He's from the Coppola family. But I think he changed his name, his stage name, partially in order to try to make it on his own without the family name. Whereas we'll see another example here soon in the next section about Sofia Coppola, who has the IC in the Fifth House and started acting in her father's movies, but then eventually went on to be a successful actor on her own. So, yeah, I just think it's interesting where this topic can come up with those crossovers between the fifth and the fourth in terms of following in the parents footsteps creatively, let's say.
- [75:04]
A
Definitely.
- [75:05]
B
Yeah. All right, so let's move on. One of the ones I talked about yesterday, not to go into all of it again, but it Goes with two examples. I have two next to each other, which is like Joe Rogan and Jay Leno. And here is again the chart of Joe Rogan. And I want to mention it just because yesterday I talked about how he has Taurus rising and Virgo is on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler of the fifth is in the fourth. And in Austin, he moved to Austin and then created a comedy club there called the Mothership. And so it's like, you get the idea of comedy, which is the fifth house, and then the fourth house, which is usually the home and living situation. But it can also be creating a building or a physical space for something. And I wanted to mention that because I found a funny parallel with Jay Leno, the famous host of the Tonight show for many years and comedian as well, just like Rogan. So Jay Leno has Aquarius rising and Gemini on the fifth whole sign house with the IC there. And the ruler of the fifth house is Mercury, which is placed in Taurus in the fourth house. And one of the famous things about Leno is that his main hobby is collecting cars, especially old vintage cars. And he's built these entire huge garages and warehouses to house all of these cars, these old cars that he's collected, basically. And I've seen some really funny tours where he's done tours and interviews of showing off his car garages and stuff. And so I thought it was a really interesting parallel of just the ruler of the 5th House of Fun and games and hobbies, being in the fourth house and creating a physical space for whatever your hobby is. And now that I think about it, I'm sure there's probably some people on YouTube. Sometimes I see these people that are really into video games, and they'll create an entire floor of their house or dedicate all the space to collecting video games and storing memorabilia or other people that are super into movies and creating entire space at home for storing movie memorabilia or having thousands of physical movies or something like that. You'd probably see that with other examples. And that's what I'm picking up archetypally from those two examples.
- [77:41]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. That's funny.
- [77:43]
B
Yeah. All right, so moving on. My next example is Malala Yousafzai. And here is the birth chart with cancer rising. The fifth house of children is Scorpio, and the ruler of the fifth house is Mars, which is in Libra in the fourth whole sign house. And Malala is famous because her and her father set up a school for teaching young girls in Afghanistan, where young girls don't always get a childhood education and it can be outlawed. So it was a major thing, her and her father putting this together, creating a school for children.
- [78:32]
A
Right? Yeah, for sure. And when I first learned about her, I was like, oh, that's so impressive, someone being so strong willed at such a young age and really advocating for education early on, which was of course out of her own experience because she was actually shot at one point because she was a girl going to school. Right?
- [78:57]
B
Well, yeah. And for creating these schools. And I should have said she's Pakistani, but the description from Google just says that she's a Pakistani female education activist and producer of film and television. She's the youngest Nobel Prize laureate in history, receiving the prize in 2014 at age 17, and the second Pakistani and the only Pashtun to receive a Nobel Prize. But she's known specifically as an education activist and a human rights advocate for the education of women and children due to teaching in this area where the Pakistani Taliban had banned girls from attending school.
- [79:42]
A
Right, yeah. So she's focused on children's rights and girls education and. But what I was going to say is, I remember when I first learned about her and I was like, wow, that's so impressive at such a young age. And it is. But then when I learned that her father, which was very uncharacteristic for the time and place, was actually a strong advocate for girls education as well, and I was like, oh, okay. So then she's building on that foundation that she grew up with and then could go even further at a very young age. And it's interesting that she's Cancer rising. So the moon is in Libra in the fourth as well, applying very closely to that conjunction with Mars ruling the fifth house. So it's bringing the first and fifth together as well as the fourth and the fifth.
- [80:22]
B
Right, Absolutely, yeah. And that her father is also an education activist and that's like a huge part of her story. Yeah, yeah. All right. So that's a good example showing other types of connections between the fourth and the fifth that can be good with the education of children in connection with the parents. All right. Another one I found when I was researching on Astra Databank is a French writer named Jean Gannett. And the primary thing I found interesting was just a biographical thing where he was a famous French writer, has Leo rising and the sun in Sagittarius in the fifth house and is a creative. But part of the biography that I saw is the ruler of the fifth house is Jupiter, which is placed in the fourth house of parents, along with Mars in the south Node. And apparently he was given up for adoption when he was young. And part of his later narrative about that, as he said that his mother was a prostitute who gave him up for adoption. And I was trying to find out later how he found that out or if he knew that and had confirmed it and how exactly. Cause it seemed like the documentation was not super good on that. So I don't know if that's actually true or if that was just his narrative about what he thought was the case. But regardless of which was actually the case, that was his narrative surrounding his origins and his parenthood.
- [82:06]
A
He didn't find out his exact parent, did he Do?
- [82:09]
B
You know, I think he did. Or if he did, it was just like. It was that she was like a single person that washed clothes. I forget the name or something like that. But then that was what was ambiguous to me was like. I was like, is that just an inference then of what an assumption that's being made, or was that actually true? And I couldn't tell if he had actually validated it. But it was like in reading some of the things that he said about her, it seemed like it was some strongly held belief that he had, one way or another that was not like super positive.
- [82:46]
A
Right. Yeah. Well, I was just. It's interesting that even if that part wasn't true, kind of the connection between those houses still holds because, you know, it's the ruler of the fifth and the fourth. Also, like hidden things. Right. And so his biological parent was hidden from him, at least for some part of his life.
- [83:04]
B
Yeah, right, exactly. Cause he finds out later on. Cause it's tricky. Yeah. So here it is that some of the records just describe the mother as a seamstress or a maidservant. But he had some kind of negative conceptualization because he would often refer to his mother as a whore. And one of the things I was reading was saying this self conceptualization as the offspring of a prostitute was central to his identity. And he constructed this idea of himself being an outcast and a rebel against societal norms so that the maternal lineage became a foundational element in his personal mythology that aligned him with the marginalized and the criminal underclass that populated his novels and his plays. But then whether or not that was true or not, I don't really know. But anyways, that was an interesting thing I found in his biography.
- [84:01]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think truth is important. But also I think we've seen with some other examples as well, sometimes what one Feels about the connections between those houses. Is still an important part of their story. Even if every piece of it isn't totally true.
- [84:18]
B
Yeah, for sure. And that's one of the tricky things with. I don't know, even just with parents and children. When you're looking at synastry between children and their parents. And sometimes different children in a family. Having different chart placements Related to the fourth house. And having different experiences of the parents. And sometimes that can be based on very literal things. Like parents treating different children differently. But other times, it can be emotional or subjective things that are within the person themselves. That may or may not reflect. Like who the parent is or how they're treating them.
- [84:56]
A
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [84:58]
B
Yeah. All right, so let's move on to our next fourth house example. Which is the birth chart of Harvey Milk.
- [85:04]
A
So Harvey Milk was the first openly gay man. To be elected to public office. It was in California as member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. So he has Aquarius rising. And Gemini is his fifth house. He has the sun, Venus, and Jupiter in the fifth house. And then Mercury is the ruler of the fifth house. And it's in the fourth. Mercury in the fourth, in turn, Is exchanging signs with Venus in the fifth. So Mercury is in Venus's sign. And Venus is in Mercury's sign. So the fourth and fifth are very tightly connected here. And I've used his chart as an example before. And his is just fascinating because basically. So his home, more broadly speaking, of San Francisco in particular. Was very connected with him, with his sexuality. And in particular, his neighborhood of the Castro. And when he first moved into the Castro neighborhood. It was just starting. It sounded like it was just starting to become kind of like a gay mecca. And became more so as he lived there. And so there's a very strong connection between the fourth and fifth and the fourth also sometimes representing you being known for where you live. And he was certainly known for both where he lived in San Francisco. And in particular, the Castro. He has a little bit of a. We used him in the third house as an example. Because he has the ruler of the 10th and the third. And he was very specifically known for his neighborhood. And also representing his neighborhood on the Board of Supervisors. But when someone has the third and the fourth strongly focused on. You can see that that was very primary in his biography.
- [86:53]
B
Yeah, absolutely. It's just tying in topics of sex and sexuality. With one city and one's home. And living situation and place of living. And some of that's being emphasized here as well. Because the degree of The IC is in the fifth house.
- [87:09]
A
And there's actually a couple more layers to this that I really love. One was when he originally moved to the Castro. He set up a camera shop with his then partner, and that's where all of the political activities kind of were housed from. But it's really funny that they then lived in the second floor of the camera shop. And so there was an artistic component connected to with the home, which is another great layer of this fourth and fifth combination. The fifth house of creative. It was like people went there to get their film developed and things like that, but then they also lived there and then now, which I love. I actually used him as quite a deep dive example in a zodiacal releasing workshop this past year that will eventually become online when I get my store back up after I stop having emergencies. But the space where he lived, where he and his partner lived and had the camera shop, is now the site of a community arts space. It's called Queer af Queer Arts Featured. And it says it's been re envisioned as a hub for queer creatives hosting a variety of events and providing a platform for underrepresented artists. That just makes me really smile too, because the fourth house can be posthumous stuff too, but it's also still. It was his home that's now being turned into a creative hub.
- [88:36]
B
Yeah, that's amazing. I like how that ties in not just the home, but also some of those themes we talked about in the last episode of Death and what happens after a person dies or things relating to their legacy and things like that.
- [88:51]
A
Exactly. So that made me very pleased when I found that one.
- [88:55]
B
Nice. That's brilliant. Okay, I think that's good then for the fourth house. And why don't we go ahead and move on? And in the next section, I want to talk about the degree of the ic because that's kind of a continuation of some of the things that we've seen, for example, with the last one with Harvey Milk or with Tori Spelling, of what happens in whole sign houses where the degree of the IC can float back and forth and usually in most latitudes will fall either in the fourth whole sign house or the third whole sign house or the fifth whole sign house. And that the degree of the IC will import fourth house significations of like home or parents into whatever whole sign house it falls, and then it will double up up the significations of fourth house significations and other significations. So we've already seen, for example, Serena Williams having the IC in the third house. And her parents trained her in tennis together with her sibling, Venus Williams. But let's look at some examples of the IC in the fifth house. So one of them that we already talked about was Tori Spelling, just having a famous father who was in television that cast her in a hit television show. And most of that is probably coming from the mutual reception or the exchange of the ruler of the fifth and the fourth. But the IC was also there. We also just talked about, like Harvey Milk, who, in addition to having a mutual reception between the fifth and the fourth, also had the degree of the IC there, importing those fourth house significations into the fifth house. But some other ones that I thought were really interesting. One famous one is Sofia Coppola. So this is the birth chart of Sofia Coppola, who has Aquarius rising. And Gemini is the fifth whole sign house of acting and creativity. And the degree of the IC is also there in the fifth whole sign house. So she has a lot of stuff going on in her chart, of course, because she's also Aquarius rising with Saturn in Taurus in the fourth whole sign house, the place of parents, along with the sun. And just like her father, who also had the ruler of the Ascendant in the fourth house. So I talked about her, especially in the last episode, as a major fourth house person where the parents are very important in the life and family is. But she also has the degree of the IC in the fifth house of creativity. And she was involved in working with her father in terms of making movies from very early on in her life. And really early on he cast her, I think, when she was a teenager in The Godfather 3. But it was usually not regarded as a super great performance as an actress. And the movie was kind of panned, and her acting was kind of panned in particular in that movie. But then as she grew up, she started getting into directing more and then eventually set herself apart from her father through her own unique directing style, which eventually became nominated for a number of awards. And she went on to do a bunch of really famous movies like Lost in Translation or Marie Antoinette, who we were using as an example before she directed famously as well.
- [92:49]
A
Yeah, I love that she has the IC in the fifth. And then it's like either way, you get from the 4th or the IC, you get to the benefic of set. So Venus is ruling the fourth in a night chart, and the IC is in the fifth. It's already importing artistic things to parents. But the ruler of the IC and the fifth is then that Mercury which is closely conjunct Venus in a night chart. So you really get this doubling up or tripling up of just positive artistic parenthood.
- [93:24]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so the next one I want to look at is the birth chart of Billie Jean King. So this is the birth chart of Billie Jean King, who is a famous tennis player who has Capricorn rising and taurus on the fifth whole sign house with the degree of the IC there in the fifth house at 16 degrees of taurus. And those are ruled by Venus, which is placed in the 10th House of Career and reputation. It's placed in Libra in its own sign along with the moon and Neptune. And this is a great example on the one hand of the ruler of the 5th and the 10th, because Billie Jean King became a tennis champion basically at a certain point in time and set different records as being an extremely prominent tennis player. So let me see. I'm just pulling up this stuff. She was formerly the number one tennis player in the world, basically. But Camille Michelle Gray, who found this chart, pointed out that it's a great example in addition, with the IC in the fifth house, because both of her parents were athletic and came from a highly athletic family where it's like her mother excelled at swimming and her father played basketball and baseball and ran track. So as a result of that, it's like both of her parents were highly athletic and really encouraged her to be athletic as well. And they also were very supportive in a positive way. So in her autobiography, for example, I found a quote that says, and in various interviews, she shared how her parents questions were never about the final score when she would come back from playing a sports game. But she said that when they picked her up from tournaments, they wouldn't ask, did you win? But instead they would ask, did you have fun and did you try your best? So it's like they were supportive in the sense of not just supporting whatever she wanted to do, but also encouraging her to have fun with it and have a good time and having a loving relationship with sports that provided a strong foundation. And that was something that I found across a number of examples with the IC and the fifth, when it was well placed, was just having a supportive family that supports your creative or athletic interests of fifth house things.
- [96:15]
A
Yeah, that's great. And you can really hear that coming through too, that the ruler of the 5th and the ruler of the IC together is so well placed, not just in the 10th, but Venus in its own sign.
- [96:28]
B
Right, exactly. That it's like a super well placed, auspicious one. Rather than something that's afflicted or what have you.
- [96:35]
A
Right. Because there are many parents of younger sports people who do not go, did you have fun? Was it good? Can be a lot more pressure or things like that. So, yeah, that's a great example of that.
- [96:51]
B
Yeah, totally. All right, let's see. Another example I wanted to share was from a patron of the astrology podcast who had shared this with me previously and that we talked about a little bit on an episode, I think a little bit last year when I interviewed her at one point. So this is from a patron and listener named Ola Bimpe. And she was born with Capricorn Rising and Taurus on the fifth whole sign house. And the degree of the IC is there at two degrees of Taurus. And then the lot of fortune is later in that sign, later in the fifth house. And what she wrote to me, and I'm just gonna read some of it because the way she said it was really good. She said, I'd say the biggest impact of having my IC in the fifth house is having the majority of my creative projects focus on my ancestry. And then she goes on, she says one of those creative projects was producing a virtual audio play recreation of a Broadway musical about a Nigerian musical artist that my father was known for writing about. My father's academic book on that musician's political importance was referenced for the original Broadway show, and he was invited to see it in the early 2000s when it premiered. I produced an audio play version in 2021 with full support and mentorship from the original producer and sound crew. And then she goes on and says this was especially meaningful because my father has dramatic storytelling ancestry. And when he is hailed in what is called an Orak Hai, or a name or names of praise and acknowledgement given to Yoruba children, he is called the child of the mask bearers. My father's first degree was even in drama, and his plays were very popular and performed routinely on campus. So this is another very literal manifestation of the fifth house I see, especially if we see the fifth house as relevant to the theater specifically. Almost every creative project I've engaged in has this element of researching my ancestry and recreating their story or stories or their work as a way to honor them. In my artist statement, I talk about how this kind of reflection can help future generations to heal, particularly because I've always felt a certain amount of grief being a first generation American and growing up far away from where my ancestry lived. For the past decade, I've focused on Figuring out more about my family tree and conducting genealogical interviews with family members for our archive, which is related to my fourth house, seventh house mutual reception. Both in creating this archive and in doing these creative projects, importing this focus into the fifth house, I'm hoping to help the next generations of my family to better manage the realities of living in the diaspora and to help them feel more grounded regardless of where they live on the planet. And the last point she said is, oh, also both of my parents and both of my mom's parents were teachers professionally at different levels of education. So there's a lineage based relationship to interact, interacting with kids or the next generation. So yeah, I thought that was an amazing example and that was one of the early examples last year when I just started doing the fourth house research and the fifth house research that started cluing me in into some important lines of understanding what it means when the IC is in the fifth house.
- [100:21]
A
Yeah, that was a lovely example.
- [100:24]
B
Yeah. So the next example I want to give is Charles Lindbergh, who is famous for what prior to the O.J. simpson trial in the 90s, what used to be called the trial of the century, because this is the father of. He was the father. And what happened is somebody broke into his house and stole his infant baby at one point and I don't remember if they tried to ransom it or something else, but later the baby was found murdered and there was this huge trial over it. This time is not exactly correct because Astrodienst lists a slightly different time zone version of this which still gives Scorpio rising, but it has the degree of the IC a little bit earlier. But one of the things I noticed in that chart is that if you use the Astro.com version of the chart, which is which uses local meantime for the ic that transiting Mars was exactly conjunct the local meantime IC in the fifth house when the baby was stolen from his home and then murdered, basically. So I thought that was an incredibly striking example then of a darker manifestation of that. But having the degree of the IC representing the home and then it being in the fifth house of children and then having transiting Mars conjoined join that and having your baby literally abducted from your home.
- [102:01]
A
Yeah, definitely. Wow, that's striking.
- [102:03]
B
Yeah.
- [102:04]
A
He also has the ruler of the 5th and the IC conjunct Saturn in a night chart.
- [102:09]
B
Natalie, ruler of the fifth and the IC conjunct Saturn Nataly. Yeah, in the third house. Yeah, definitely. So that is tough example. And then just one more example in this section was sent in by A patron. I don't have a chart for this one to share. I don't believe. So I'm just gonna read the example because it was pretty straightforward. So this is sent in by a patron and listener named Patricia Adem. And they said, I'm watching the fifth house stories episode and I have an example that ties into the fourth and the fifth. I have the ruler of the fifth house in the fourth house house as well as the IC in the fifth whole sign house. One of the ways that this shows up for me is in house parties. As a kid growing up, my family often entertained at home. And when I moved out on my own, I hosted a lot too. I hosted parties for my friends, etc. Even when I had a very small place, friends would ask me to host gatherings. I have significant memories from house parties at my friends home and these events would be talked about for a while. With Saturn transiting my fourth fifth house, I basically haven't had anyone over in a while. During the partial eclipse that happened in my fifth house, I ended up hosting my first house party in years. And this was at a friend's home. Recently I started hosting organizing events to help people feel more at home in my current city. Jupiter rules my fifth house in a day chart. So I should have gotten the data so I could show the chart, but I think we get the gist of it. I thought that was brilliant and made perfect sense once I heard it. Of just having the IC in the fifth house and hosting a lot of parties at home.
- [103:59]
A
Yeah, that's a great example. I've seen other charts just like that with a similar manifestation too. It's funny to think about and look across different charts and see why the IC makes sense in the fifth. Because there's always a reason, but there's a bunch of different reasons. Sense.
- [104:15]
B
Yeah, exactly. But just being open to the idea that sometimes the fifth house can indicate things like parties and having fun, and how that can sometimes manifest very literally in significant ways is kind of important.
- [104:31]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [104:32]
B
Yeah. All right. So that was the section on the IC in the fifth house that I wanted to do. And I think now. All right, now we transition to talking about what happens when the ruler of the fifth house is in the fifth house itself, which is essentially having the planet in its own sign or in its own domicile. And in researching charts related to this, one of the things that I found is just that when a planet's in its own sign in its own house, that it sometimes just stands out or excels in that area as being particularly gifted or particularly skilled at that thing as well as one of the meanings is having greater self, autonomy, economy in that specific area of life. So one of the examples, one of my first examples that was noted by Camille Michelle Gray is Ariana Grande, who has Venus in the fifth house and ruling the tenth and the fifth house. So let me share her chart. All right, so this is the birth chart of Ariana Grande, who has Capricorn Rising and Venus in Taurus in the fifth whole sign house along with the IC in a night chart. And Venus is also ruling the 10th House of Career and Reputation, which contains the moon, Jupiter and the lot of fortune. So really excellent. Ruler of the 10th House of Career and the 5th House of Creativity. And Ariana Grande, of course is an American singer and songwriter and actress. And what's interesting is her Wikipedia biography. It says that she's known for her four octave vocal range, which extends into the whistle register. And she's regarded as an influential figure in pop music, including being one of the best selling music artists of all time with estimated sales of over 90 million records. And she was also the highest paid female musician in 2020 according to Forbes Mac magazine. So, you know, right there, that's interesting in and of itself. But then Camille Michelle Gray writes that she points out that Ariana Grande has been performing since she was a young child and with her IC there, with Venus in the fifth house, Ariana Grande's parents actually actively nurtured her creative inclinations from a very young age, which is like the intersection of creativity with home, basically, as we were just seeing in some of those other examples. So Camille continues and writes that her creative repertoire includes acting, singing, multiple perfumes, a makeup line, multiple consumer brand sponsorships, et cetera. That she started out on children's television on Nickelodeon, but that she's also known for who she dates and the love songs that she writes famously, but with Venus opposing Pluto. That her dating and singing career has sometimes been informed by some tragedies, including the loss of her ex boyfriend Mac Miller and other things that have taken place as well in terms of her love life and performances and things like that. So it's really well placed as the ruler of the 10th in terms of her, her natural skills and abilities in that area and excelling in that area, both with it ruling the 5th and the 10th, but then also just in terms of her success and some of the things she's experienced as well.
- [108:08]
A
Yeah, so you really hear the creative autonomy, I think, and the excellence from the ruler of the Fifth in the fifth in its own sign. But also that it's very much Venus in its own sign. Right. It's like singing and acting, but perfumes and makeup and things like that. It's all Venusian fifth house stuff. So it's almost like the purest fifth house kind of archetype you could get with the joy of Venus being in the fifth house. And her having Venus in its own sign in a night chart in the fifth.
- [108:43]
B
Yeah, exactly. And perfumes and sweet smelling things was a signification of Venus that goes back to Valens, I believe, and is interesting because that shows up in one of the other people that we'll talk about at some point as well.
- [108:57]
A
I think Camille also noted that she started out on children's television, Nickelodeon, which is another fifth house signification.
- [109:05]
B
Right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. So that was that example. And then the next example that I wanted to talk about in this area was Diana Ross. So let me pull up her chart. Here's the chart of Diana Ross with Scorpio rising. And Venus is exalted in Pisces in the fifth house.
- [109:36]
A
So she's known as the Queen of Motown records. She's an American singer and actress who rose to fame in the 1960s as the lead singer of the Supremes. The Supremes became Motown's most successful act and one of the world's best selling girl groups. Which is interesting with the exalted Venus in the fifth. These are again Camille's notes. Ross left the group in 1970 and went on to a successful solo career with hits like Ain't no Mountain High Enough and I'm Coming Out. She was named.
- [110:06]
B
Okay, hold on a second. So the first one was just a Google summary that I wrote out. But part of the example, and this is the broader example and notes were submitted by Camille. But in terms of the chart itself, it's a Scorpio rising chart with Venus exalted in the fifth house. Conjunct the IC in a night chart. So that's part of the example here and part of the emphasis is just having a super exalted, well placed planet in the fifth house and standing out as excelling or rising to the very top of your field in general.
- [110:43]
A
Right. So this is the other best case scenario for the fifth house in terms of the planetary rulership. Either the ruler of the fifth in its own sign or the ruler of the fifth exalted as it is here placed in the earth or. Sorry, you know what I mean, Venus is exalted here in the fifth.
- [111:02]
B
Yeah, Venus is exalted in the fifth. And then, yeah, the ruler of the fifth itself is Jupiter, which is in Leo in the tenth whole sign house, which is tying in career and things like that as well.
- [111:14]
A
Right. There were so many people that we could have put in the 10th House section, and we had to kind of take some and put in other places. Because many people are known for fifth house things who have careers in that.
- [111:25]
B
Yeah, especially a lot of artists and entertainers and things like that. So Camille was writing about how Diana Ross was the lead singer of the vocal group the Supremes, who became Motown's most successful actor in the 1960s and one of the world's best selling girl groups of all times. She then went on to have a successful solo career and also saw success as an actress, including her Golden Globe award winning and Academy Award nominated portrayal of Billie Holiday in the film Lady Sings the Blues. So that she actually became the first African American actress to receive an Academy award nomination for a debut film performance. So that was pretty amazing. And then Camille also points out that with the IC in the fifth house conjunct her Venus, she actually grew up living next to legendary R and B singer, producer and songwriter Smokey Robinson, who actually lent her the money to take modeling and cosmetology classes. She also took classes in clothing design, millinery, pattern making and tailoring, as well as providing hairdressing services to her neighbors for extra money. So Camille points out that Venus in Pisces is just a multidisciplinary disciplinary creative talent. With that placement, she has five children, including the famous actress and business owner Tracee Ellis Ross, who we talked about in the last episode with the ruler. I think with the ruler of the ascendant and the fifth. Right, right.
- [112:53]
A
I think she was.
- [112:54]
B
Yeah, yeah. Because it was Taurus rising with Venus in Virgo in the fifth whole sign house.
- [112:59]
A
Right, yeah, yeah.
- [113:02]
B
So, yeah, awesome example. And again, a great example of planets in exaltation rising to the top of one's field.
- [113:10]
A
And it's also funny, right, that her daughter is also known for fifth house things.
- [113:15]
B
Yeah, exactly. And became prominent in fifth house things. Things.
- [113:21]
A
Yeah.
- [113:22]
B
All right, let's see. Another example that's gonna share is the birth chart of Matthew McConaughey, who's a famous actor who has Gemini rising and Venus in Libra in its own sign in the fifth whole sign house very closely conjunct Jupiter, both of them at 22 degrees of Libra. And then Jupiter is ruling the 10th whole sign house of career. So Matthew McConaughey became a leading Hollywood actor, especially in the early 2000 and tens. He was just in this streak of just major, major movies and huge career success for a while. That was sometimes jokingly referred to as the McConaissance.
- [114:09]
A
Some of the notes Camille contributed to this one as well, and one of the funnier ones was that he was known for his relaxed, fun loving attitude and his mantra of all right, all right, all right, which is very easygoing, fifth house, fun loving kind of vibe.
- [114:27]
B
Right. One of the cool things that Camille found is he actually founded an award winning foundation that's aimed at helping teenagers and youth lead active lives and make good choices. That's called the, the Just Keep Living foundation, which also matches, she points out, the really uplifting, supportive nature of both benefics being combined there in the fifth house.
- [114:52]
A
Nice.
- [114:54]
B
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things about this is just subjectively, he's a really good actor and excelled at being a good actor. And I think he started out doing more mild roles like in Dazed and Confused. And then he got, I mean, Interestingly in the 2000s, he was stuck. Not stuck, but he did a lot of rom coms. Basically. He was like the love interest in a lot of rom coms, which is also a funny fifth house thing, but then eventually emerged as a dramatic actor doing some really major performances like, you know, Dallas Buyers Club. And I think he was nominated for a number of awards for Dallas Buyers Club.
- [115:39]
A
Yeah, that was a really good movie. Yeah. And focused on sexuality in part. Yeah. And it's really funny that he has the ruler of the tenth once again in the fifth, as well as the ruler of the fifth in its own sign, Venus. So just lots of. You'll find lots and lots of, you know, major creative professionals with 10th, fifth combinations. Camille also noted that she read his autobiography and he's apparently really into sports betting and other forms of gambling and is an avid golf player. So again, more positivity around fifth house things. But he did have one kind of notable negative fifth house thing that came out. He was famously arrested for playing the bongos naked in his Austin, Texas home surrounded by marijuana paraphernalia. And neighbors called in a noise complaint. And she was noting the fifth house as a place of hedonism and other things like partying, pleasure, et cetera.
- [116:32]
B
I mean, who among us hasn't had that happen?
- [116:40]
A
Yeah, well, he has a night chart. So it's like Venus is really well placed, but Jupiter is sometimes over excess in night charts.
- [116:48]
B
Right? Yeah, yeah. And the last thing is that he also Noted that, Camille notes, is that one of his life goals, his main life goal was always to become a father with those positive fifth house placements, which he did eventually become.
- [117:05]
A
Nice.
- [117:07]
B
Yeah. All right, so thanks to Camille for that. Basically the last three ones in a row, actually, depending on.
- [117:15]
A
I think this next one might be.
- [117:16]
B
The next one is also.
- [117:17]
A
Yeah, yeah, Joey Chestnut.
- [117:20]
B
Yeah. So Camille found a lot of really good ones and this one is particularly funny. So the next birth chart is the birth chart of Joey Chestnut, who's interesting because he's a professional eater and he's like one of the top and most world renowned professional competitive eaters in the world. Yeah, not professional eater, competitive eaters. With Gemini rising and Venus in Libra in the fifth whole sign house, along with. With the Lot of Fortune and Mars. So it's like Venus in its own sign and literally excelling at eating something people normally can do for pleasure or enjoyment. But you add in Mars there as well, and it's like competitive eating.
- [118:09]
A
Eating really fast.
- [118:15]
B
Yeah, eating really fast. And so Camille pointed out that he's a competitive eater that holds 55 world records across 55 disciplines and is ranked first in the world by the Major League Eating Organization. So he's won the mustard yellow belt world record 17 times and is considered to be the greatest competitive eater in history. So I thought that was pretty amazing because we did a whole thing in the last episode about ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth house and people that. That dedicate their life or their career towards games like chess or tennis or other things like that. But evidently, archetypally, that archetype of doing things that people normally do for fun and enjoyment, and sometimes when really important planets in the chart are placed there, or when planets are really well placed there, you can excel at doing other things that people just normally do for fun as well.
- [119:17]
A
Right? Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. He has the Ascendant ruler in the seventh conjunct, Jupiter. I think we've seen that a number of times at this point. Like people whose sort of vocation involves competitors or either one on one or just competing against other people.
- [119:37]
B
Yeah, competing as well as just the ruler of the ascent as the body. And he's literally able to expand his body cavity where one of the competitive eating things is eating the most hot dogs as fast as possible to beat the other people.
- [119:55]
A
That's really funny. And that probably speaks to his having some sort of natural. Greater capacity. Physical capacity for that.
- [120:06]
B
Yeah, capacity for that, naturally. As well as training to do it.
- [120:12]
A
As well, right, Both. But you know how sometimes competitive swimmers, they have particular biological qualities that make them really good at that compared to the average person. And that just seems like one of those. Yeah, as you pointed out with the body.
- [120:26]
B
Right. Like, Michael Phelps has, like, a bigger lung capacity or something like that. Wasn't that one of them?
- [120:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking of that kind of thing.
- [120:33]
B
Yeah, that's a good point. All right, cool. Well, good find on the part of Camille with that one. Yeah, yeah. All right, so let's move on. My next example. The next one is actually your example, right?
- [120:46]
A
Yeah. So Julius Wilford, quote, Nikki Arnstein, was an American professional gambler and con artist. And this is another ruler of the fifth in its own sign. So he had Scorpio rising with Pisces 5th House. Jupiter in Pisces actually stationary in its own sign of Pisces in the fifth. Fifth. And so there's a really strong focus on fifth house things here. And interestingly, it's also the ruler of the second house of how you make a living in financial things in the fifth house. And this is one of those where it's like games of chance or speculative things can go in the fifth house. And what's funny, there's a few funny things about it, I thought. Anyway, as a teenager, he rode in professional bike races, and that's actually how he met the people that drew him into the world of gambling. And so it's another fifth house thing, like professional bike racing. Right. It's like a sport or like a race. And so he had a little bit of the gambling. He had a little bit of the con artist going on in his life. I think the gambling part is in the fifth house. And he did go to prison at one point for the con artist piece, but he actually lived long enough to see himself immortalized in the. The 1964 Broadway musical called Funny Girl, as well as the 1968 film version of that and the 1975 sequel, Funny Lady. So he's accidentally also being immortalized in other fifth house things, like the world of film and musicals.
- [122:24]
B
Brilliant. I love it.
- [122:25]
A
Yeah. So I thought that was a great one. I'm also really happy whenever I find people born in the 1800s that have an exact birthday time. I guess this is rounded, but it was like they were keeping records. This was Germany.
- [122:38]
B
Yeah. And having a birth time at all. Yeah, definitely. All right, the next example was sent in by a patron and listener of the astrology podcast. And this is for a native named Paul Germain. And let me see. So Paul is a successful children's television writer and director, and he was one of the creators of the nickel Nickelodeon animated series Rugrats, which is actually about babies or children, basically. And his chart has Aquarius rising and the sun and Mercury and the moon all in Gemini in the fifth whole sign house. So it's like Mercury is in its own sign, dignified and excelling at the fifth house. Topic not just of creativity, but evidently also of children in this instance as well, coming up in a very literal way in the native's life. So his son was the inspiration of basically the main character in Rugrats, which was Tommy Pickles, who's like a baby, basically, in the series. I was a big, actually, Rugrats fan in the 1990s. It was a great cartoon. And one of the things that's funny about this was that they were saying that Jupiter was in or Trine, the fifth house when each of his three shows plus the movie premiered. So he kept having Trines to those fifth house placements. And then the final thing is that he has three kids who all write professionally, which is another really brilliant. Mercury in gemini in the 5th House of Children's signification.
- [124:27]
A
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's funny, too, that it was children's television, because while the fifth house already represents children, Mercury as a general significating planet can also be related with youth.
- [124:38]
B
Right, right.
- [124:40]
A
Yeah. So it's kind of like doubling up and reinforcing that.
- [124:43]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so that was an amazing example. So shout out to his daughter for sending that in, who is a student of mine. I appreciate it.
- [124:52]
A
Nice.
- [124:54]
B
All right, let's see. Moving on. There's just a few more. One of them that's actually like that. That's an interesting parallel is Nadia Suleyman, who was sometimes famously known as Octomom in the press in the late 2000s and early 2010s because she became pregnant with. Was it eight children at the same time?
- [125:20]
A
It was eight children at the same time. But she's also had other groups of multiples, and so she has actually 14 children in total.
- [125:26]
B
Hold on a sec. The audio cut out for a second. Oh, oh, wait, now it's back. Okay, let's keep going and see how it goes. Okay, so she was born with Aquarius rising and Mercury in gemini in the fifth whole sign house. Co present with the IC, which is earlier in the sign at 8° of Gemini. And. And that Mercury has an overcoming sextile from Jupiter, which is at 22 degrees of Aries sextiling Mercury. And then mercury is also trining Uranus very closely at 28 degrees of Libra in the ninth house. So she became famous because of being pregnant with eight babies at the same time.
- [126:11]
A
Yeah. And this is another funny one where it's funny that it's mercury in the fifth house and not just the fifth house ruler in its own sign. Because mercury is also related to multiples. Right. Like things that are more than one. And she had not just the eight babies at one time, but several sets of multiple children.
- [126:32]
B
Right.
- [126:33]
A
That was the most famous group. But, you know, she had other ones too.
- [126:37]
B
Okay. Yeah. And what were the circumstances surrounding that again?
- [126:43]
A
So the doctor implanted more embryos than he was supposed to, like 12 instead of the typical three. And by the way, some of these additional notes are from Lindsay.
- [126:53]
B
Yeah, Lindsay Turner submitted this one.
- [126:55]
A
Yeah. So supposedly this was at Suleyman's request that she didn't want any of the embryos to be discarded for religious reasons. But that later got the doctor expelled from the American Society for Reproductive Medicine because there was a whole public backlash against this being unethical to do that many at once because it was risky.
- [127:17]
B
Okay. Yeah. So she ended up having a total of 14 children, all from IVF, and then she did a reality television show about raising that many children at one point. Right?
- [127:32]
A
Yeah, she did. And there's this great quote from her where she said, I was looking at myself, and I acknowledged that I wasn't in love at all with him, her husband. I was in love with having children. So, yeah, you see, this is another example where the ruler of the fifth in its own sign in the fifth, there's like a very strong focus and, like a clear ability to go forward with fifth house things.
- [127:59]
B
Right, Absolutely. Other people were seeing it excelling in that area in some sense or standing out in that area. And one of the other funny things that Lindsay wrote was that there was a Mercury retrograde in Gemini in her fifth house during the time of her IVF treatment, which was 31 weeks before giving birth on January 26, 2009. So there may have been some sort of activation there that was happening by transit. And really, a lot of things, these examples, there are activations of the houses that we're talking about, but we're often either not dwelling on that or not digging into that more, just. Cause it would take a huge amount of time, Right?
- [128:37]
A
Yeah.
- [128:38]
B
Yeah. All right, awesome. Well, thanks to Lindsay Turner for finding that example. Let's see, another one was Prince Charles, now King Charles of the uk I Just thought this one is interesting because he was born with Leo rising and Jupiter in Sagittarius in the fifth whole sign house conjunct Mars in Sagittarius in the fifth whole sign house. And it's like one of his children, probably Prince William, will become king at some point once King Charles dies. So on the one hand you have that Jupiter there in Sagittarius in the fifth house in terms of raising a child to eventually become king one day. But on the other hand you have Mars there. And there's been some famous conflicts over the past decade with his other son, Prince Harry, who famously left the family over the past few years.
- [129:37]
A
Right, yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's interesting. There's often a fifth house emphasis for people's charts for whom the idea of succession is very primary. Like we saw with Marie Antoinette's, with the ruler of the fifth and the first. So here's a similar emphasis in a different way with Jupiter in its own sign in Sagittarius. And a little kind of funny because Jupiter is associated with royalty, you know.
- [130:07]
B
Right, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally.
- [130:11]
A
Yeah.
- [130:13]
B
Okay, so let's see other ones. This one is a little different, but one of the ones I found of a planet in its own sign, this is the birth chart of Tony Wolf, who was famously the mistress of Carl Gustav Jung of the famous psychologist. And she was born with Leo rising and Jupiter in Sagittarius in the fifth whole sign house conjunct Mars. And they had this long term relationship that spanned many years. And Jung himself had a wife that he lived together and stayed with. But then he also spent time with this woman, Tony Wolf. And some of that relationship, I think was dramatized in some different movies and stuff like that. But I thought it was interesting how the fifth house is major component in terms of her chart and in terms of having Jupiter in the fifth house in a night chart.
- [131:14]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's interesting, we were talking in the last episode, at least in the last episode, about the differentiation or similarity of the fifth house and the seventh house in terms of relationships. And we both agree that there's frequently lots of overlap between the two and they're not always just very distinct from each other. But I do think this kind of situation is sometimes where you see more of a pure fifth house thing going on, where it's like a very clearly, it's a relationship that's not legitimized, not formalized, and it's very clearly focused on pleasure. But there's no plans to make one a Legal partner. I think that is sometimes more. When you see the fifth house show up more distinctly.
- [132:01]
B
Yeah, for sure. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to do this example, because it does bring up that distinction sometimes where on the one hand, in the previous episodes, we've talked about how sometimes there is a lot of overlap between the fifth and seventh houses, and sometimes there's not as much of a distinction as people want to put on those houses because of the close similarities. But then on the other hand, sometimes you do run into cases like this where there is a clear distinction and you can start to see how the fifth and seventh houses can be differentiated. Sometimes.
- [132:38]
A
Yeah.
- [132:39]
B
Sometimes, yeah. So I think this is from Wikipedia, but it said. It is widely acknowledged by historians and scholars that Tony Wolf had a deep and enduring intimate relationship with. With the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung, a connection that has often been characterized as that of a mistress. Their bond, however, extended far beyond a simple affair, deeply influencing Jung's personal and professional life for several decades. Let's see. It was an unconventional. The relationship was complex. It was known to Young's wife, Emma, and Woolf was a regular presence in the Young household, often joining the family for Sunday meals. This arrangement, while reportedly causing strain, was maintained throughout their lives. So, anyway, just different things and different dynamics that can come up sometimes. And in terms of being able to articulate some of those things when looking at the chart.
- [133:36]
A
Right. Interesting. And you know what's really interesting also about this chart is the fifth house is so much stronger than the seventh. Right. It's like the fifth house is like Jupiter in its own sign. The seventh house is ruled by Saturn in a night chart, closely conjunct the ascendant, like 5 degrees off the ascendant or so. So it's like there's almost like a. I don't know if she married at any point, but at least with her relationship with Yang, it's almost like a focal point of the lack of formalized partnership. Whereas the fifth house is really strong.
- [134:13]
B
Yeah, for sure. And there's probably some nuances or details that could be worked out there for people that are more familiar with the biographies or even, obviously the people themselves probably would understand some of the nuances there even better than we can ever attempt to understand. But it's clear that there's some things going on there, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Which I meant to mention. We forgot to mention in the last two episodes. But it's like. Like we did a lot of chart research ourselves. We got some help from people from, like, Camille Michelle Gray, Lindsay Turner, and Orla, who sent in some chart examples. And we've tried for many of these people to familiarize ourselves with their biographies as much as we can and the things that stand out as being relevant. But I'm sure there's gonna be things that we miss from different biographies that people who are more familiar with the individual biographies or people that we're talking about about. And so we would love for people not to yell at us, but to like. If you notice something, some additional piece that is relevant that you want to point out, then post a comment on YouTube and let us know. If you see something in the chart that you know about from their biography that sheds additional light on some of the themes that we're looking at here in terms of the fifth house or what have you, then this can become more of like a community project to fill out our understanding and deepen our understanding. Because that's one of the fun things about doing these research projects is that you'll see a birth chart that'll come up and you'll cast the chart and it's like you'll see the placement, but you don't really know fully how that works out, except for broadly. But then the more and more you read a person's biography, the more you realize it speaks to that in very specific ways. And so it's fun to learn more and more about the person and find out more about that placement as you go. But obviously there's a limit point in terms of time as far as we could go into some of these biographies.
- [136:15]
A
Yeah, definitely. So we included charts for which there was definitely a strong argument for those placements being significant with regard to the fifth house. But we're sure that there are also some more that we aren't aware of. So, yeah, definitely add Those in the YouTube comments if you happen to know them more closely.
- [136:35]
B
Yeah, for sure. All right, so let's see, moving on. The very last example in this one that I had is the birth chart of Marc Maron, who's a famous comedian and podcast host who was born with Taurus rising and Mercury in Virgo in the fifth whole sign house retrograde, but it's actually stationing direct within a day and conjunct Pluto and Uranus and it's ruling the second house of finances. And my primary thing here is just that he's a stand up comedian that eventually hit it big and became really successful because he was one of the first comedians to start a podcast relatively early called the WTF podcast and became famous in the early 2010s because I think, for example, Obama went on his podcast at one point because it was such a. A popular and major leading podcast.
- [137:34]
A
Interesting. That's actually also really interesting with not just the ruler of the fifth in its own sign, but it's like Tri in the midheaven in the 9th, which politics is often assigned to.
- [137:45]
B
Yeah, exactly. And he's also known for being very political, and he's doing a whole media blitz right now, going on different podcasts to promote his latest a special. And in the special, he's being very open about sometimes criticizing other comedians or other people for promoting negative political things and things like that. So his political openness is very open, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. But I mainly wanted to point it out just as the connection with the planet being dignified and excelling or standing out in that area of comedy in this instance, like stand up comedy. And then also with Mercury ruling the second house, becoming successful and being able to be successful as a comedian financially and have that supportive person, as opposed to, let's say, some of the other artists we looked at earlier with the second house, who maybe did art and were good at it, but maybe struggled to have it support them or to make a living doing what they love doing.
- [138:53]
A
Right, yeah. So in this case, Mercury in its own sign is really, well, supporting not only the fifth, but also the second house.
- [139:00]
B
Yeah, exactly. And doing it as stand up, but then also eventually talking and doing podcasts as well and being kind of a trailblazer in that sense. All right, I think that's good for that set. Why don't we move on to the sixth house? All right, so my first example in the sixth house and the connection with the fifth and sixth house is Maria Montessori, who's famous at this point for nowadays we are familiar with that name of Montessori Schools, which is a specific type of school for children that outlines an educational program that goes back to her. And she was born with Leo rising. And Sagittarius is the fifth whole sign house, and it contains Saturn in a night chart, and Saturn is ruling the sixth house. And one of the things that's interesting about her life story is that originally in developing some of her educational programs, she wanted to create a school program for children with learning disabilities, or created her program after working with children with disabilities and then starting to get a better sense of what she felt like would be a good educational program for children.
- [140:20]
A
Yeah, that's really interesting. I didn't know that piece about her biography before.
- [140:23]
B
You Found that, yeah, that's partially behind that and behind the creation of the school to some extent or played a contributing role in terms of having a connection where sometimes traditionally the six can be associated with. With traditionally illnesses or sometimes physical disabilities or other things like that.
- [140:46]
A
For sure. And you also found that she had a child out of wedlock, which was like a scandal at the time. Right?
- [140:55]
B
Yeah. So there's a whole other part of her life that's connected with the fact that Saturn is ruling not just the sixth house, but also the seventh house of relationships, and it's placed in the fifth house of children. And. And she had a child who was born out of wedlock, which was considered really scandalous at the time. And the father was this fellow doctor who co directed this orthopedic orthophrenic school in Rome with her. But in order to avoid scandal and avoid social and professional repercussions, she basically kept her relationship secret as well as the birth of her son secret. So her child was sent to live with another family in the countryside near Rome, and Maria would visit him regularly, but additionally didn't reveal that she was his mother. So later in life, as the child grew older, he eventually learned the truth about his parentage and eventually went to live with his mother, with Maria, and then they actually ended up working closely together to promote the Montessori method of education, education later on in life, which is kind of like a nice touching part to that. But you can see the interesting difficulties where it's like we're looking at a night chart here with Saturn in the fifth house. So we would expect some of the greatest challenges would come up in the sphere of children. And then since it's ruling the seventh house, it's like having this relationship that wasn't a marriage and then having a child and then having to hide the child and everything else.
- [142:29]
A
Right, for sure. I wonder if there's something to the ruler of the sixth in the fifth with regard to something about the six signifying subordinates or people who are in a lower social station with regard to that being. Having an illegitimate child being a real taboo at the time, and that being actually considered to make you lower socially if it were known.
- [142:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, that could be.
- [142:55]
A
Be.
- [142:56]
B
And also just that she works. Yeah, that she works with her child, the ruler of the sixth and the fifth, and one who works with their children at work, for example.
- [143:06]
A
Yeah, that's great. I like that.
- [143:08]
B
Yeah. Because one of the later examples we'll see is a connection between the fifth and the sixth and it was like somebody that started working for a sports company for, like, Nike. So symbolically, I can see how both would make sense.
- [143:23]
A
Mm.
- [143:25]
B
Another one that we've talked about previously was King Louis xvi. And here is his chart with Virgo rising and Saturn in Capricorn in the fifth whole sign house ruling the sixth house of illness and physical issues. So we had talked about him previously. Right, right.
- [143:51]
A
Yeah. So he was the one who was married to Marie Antoinette, and it seemed to be from their biographies that he had some sort of issue that was perhaps a medical condition, although it wasn't completely clear, but he had some sort of issue where he couldn't. He either had trouble having sex or it was painful or something like that. And therefore they did not have children for much longer than average, like, over seven years later. And so he has the ruler of the sixth in the sixth house of illness and injury in the fifth house of children, sexuality and reproduction.
- [144:29]
B
Yeah. So I just thought that was really interesting because it became a big scandal and it was huge, especially for her and her identity and everything else. And we remember that she had Saturn in the seventh house, but for him, it's like Saturn in the fifth house ruling this sixth. And they don't know for sure what the issue is, but it's highly speculated that it may have been a medical issue that made it painful for him to have sex. So it's an interesting manifestation of having the ruler of the sixth house of physical injury in the sixth house being this Saturn that's retrograde and making it physically painful to have sex. But then after seven years, they eventually figured something out and they were able to overcome it and start having children and start having sex. And that also speaks a little bit to not just Saturn, sometimes indicating delays, but Saturn's also retrograde, which itself can sometimes delay the significations of what the planet wants to signify until later in.
- [145:31]
A
The life, for sure. But it's also interesting that this is a day chart. And so even though Saturn is retrograde and rules the sixth, it is in its own sign, in a day chart. And therefore it's not something that was completely blocked for his whole lifetime, but just delayed.
- [145:46]
B
Yeah. So it became like, a surmountable difficulty of, like, the delineation is like, you'll have a surmountable difficulty in the sphere of physical issues and sex and sexuality, but you may be able to overcome it at some point through great striving or effort. And it's also nice because it's mitigated by that Venus in the second House in Libra, which is overcoming Saturn through a superior square. Right, yeah. So that is a good story and kind of like a success story in terms of that. Yeah. So one of them was the birth chart of Monica Lewinsky, who was born with Libra rising and Jupiter ruling the sixth house of work, and it's placed in the fifth house of sex and sexuality, became famous in the 1990s for having an affair with Bill Clinton in the White House. And then it blew up into this big national media thing. But with that, I just thought it was interesting because the sixth house is traditionally the house. It's associated with work and the workplace and the fifth house with sex and sexuality. And there's just a very literal instance of that in her life and biography.
- [146:58]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And this, you know, in someone else's life biography, you could perhaps see that they actually worked with a fifth house topic. You know, like some of the other people we had earlier with the second house connection with the fifth might actually work in the field of sexuality, but in this case it was just the workplace and sexuality connection.
- [147:18]
B
Right, yeah. So that's pretty straightforward. And then the next one was one that you found, right? Mm.
- [147:27]
A
So the next one's the chart of Theodore Adorno and he has had Virgo rising and the fifth house is Capricorn. It's ruled by Saturn in its own sign of Aquarius in the sixth house. So he has a very Saturnian fifth and sixth house connection going on. And it's not actually totally clear whether this was a day or night chart, because the sun's really the ascendant and the sun are somewhat close together. And so anyway, we don't know for sure, but either way it's quite Saturnian. So he was a German philosopher and social theorist and he was a fierce critic. This is the part that's funny to me about the fifth house, because if you look at philosophers charts, their own philosophies always speak their natal charts. So he was a fierce critic of what he called the culture industry, which included movies, popular music, television, et cetera. Also jazz. Weirdly, he was very anti jazz. He seemed a little bit like a music snob. So Saturn, as the ruler of the fifth in the sixth, even describes the concept of the culture industry. Right. It's like merging the topics of, like, entertainment or fun with, like, work or with. Yeah, like a work related topic rather than just fun. I got a couple of great quotes about this. Both quotes are from his work, the culture industry. The first one says, amusement under late capitalism is the Prolongation of work. It is sought after as an escape from the mechanized work process and to recruit strength in order to be able to cope with it again. But at the same time, mechanization has such power over a man's leisure and happiness and so profoundly determines the manufacture of amusement goods that his experiences are inevitably after images of the work process itself. And I thought that was an amazing quote because it just so clearly speaks the combination of the fifth and the sixth, and how he's kind of not just, like, writing about conceptions, like theoretical conceptions of culture industry, but saying it's like, it's not even separate from work. They're like. Like connected, Right?
- [149:41]
B
Yeah, for sure. That's pretty brilliant.
- [149:45]
A
And the second one is just about the topic of hobbies. With the fifth house, you can look at this chart and imagine this person maybe either doesn't have strong hobbies or is, like, serious hobbies with the Saturn. He wrote, I have no hobby as far as my activities beyond the bounds of my recognized profession are concerned. I take them all, without exception, very seriously. So much so that I should be horrified by the idea that they had anything to do with hobbies, preoccupations in which I had become mindlessly infatuated in order to kill the time, had I not become hardened by experience to such examples of this now widespread, barbarous mentality. He was pretty down on fifth house things.
- [150:28]
B
Yeah. He does not sound like a fun guy to have a party with.
- [150:34]
A
No. He was, like, part of this group of philosophers in Germany, and I saw someone write that he was perhaps the most pessimistic of the entire group.
- [150:44]
B
Okay.
- [150:44]
A
But I just love that he was known for conceptualizing things about the culture industry. But he was also, like, very. The sixth house piece is also that he thought that because movies and music and so forth in his lifetime, I think, became such a, like, big business thing that he thought that individual human beings. He was coming from, like, a partially a Marxist perspective, but individual human beings were diminished and subordinated via those things that they thought they were having fun, but they were actually, like, losing their own individual creativity and being subordinated to, like, capitalism or, like, the capitalist media machine, which is also very sixth house connected to the fifth.
- [151:29]
B
Okay. Wow.
- [151:31]
A
Yeah.
- [151:33]
B
Anyway, that's pretty good.
- [151:34]
A
Yep.
- [151:35]
B
Cool. All right. Good times with the fifth and just showing the full spectrum of fifth house things. All right, let me see the next example. So the next example was submitted by Camille Michelle Gray, who found this one. So this is the birth chart for Sidney Biddle Barrows and it says that she was an American businesswoman and socialite who became known as an escort agency owner under the name Sheila Devin. She later became known as the Mayflower Madam. So her chart, for those listening to the audio versions, we're looking at a chart with Scorpio rising. And Pisces is the fifth whole sign house, and it contains the North Node. And the ruler of the fifth house, traditionally is Jupiter, which is placed in Aries in the sixth whole sign house in the place of work and employees. And Jupiter is also ruling the second house of finances, where we find Venus in a night chart. So let's see the main part about this. She wrote a book about her experience being a high class prostitution business, of running a high class prostitution business, but also two books about sexual etiquette is one of the points that Camille made. And when I was looking at this and reading up on the biography and Wikipedia and stuff, one of the things that struck me is that I think this is actually about her having employees and that she benefited financially, which is the second house from sex work, which is the fifth house, that was being done by her employees, which is the sixth house. Because the sixth house has always traditionally been people that work for you, which can sometimes mean contractors, but can also mean your employees, if you actually run a business. I mean, alternatively, it's possible that it may just tie together, literally the topic of sex, which is the fifth house, and work, which is the sixth. But there's something going on there just in terms of those connections here. And what was interesting is I found that later in her career, since the 1990s, she reinvented herself as a management consultant, an author and public speaker. And that drawing on the business acumen she employed while she was running her other service, her consulting work now actually focuses on customer service and experience. And that's like, literally, I think I took that from Wikipedia or something like that. So I thought it was amazing that this word of like, customer service and experiences coming up with Jupiter in the sixth house. And it's literally about, like, trying to make your customer experience positive.
- [154:19]
A
Mm. Right? Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. I do usually find prominent placements in the sixth house or people who are focused on employees like HR or something like that. But yeah, that's like a perfect ruler of the fifth and the sixth in terms of. Of her employees were the ones doing the sexual work, and then she was making money from that.
- [154:44]
B
Right. Yeah. Okay, so moving on to the next example. One of the ones I found when I was looking for ruler of the fifth and the sixth was. This is the birth chart of the rapper Eazy E. Who was born with Aries rising. And the fifth house is Leo, and it's ruled by the sun, which is in Virgo. In the sixth house of illness, conjunct Pluto and Uranus and Mercury retrograde, which are all in that house. And they're being opposed by Saturn in the 12th house in the night chart. So easy was at the end of his life, famously, he ended up contracting aids, it is thought, from sexual encounters. And he ended up passing away in the early 1990s of AIDS. But it was a really notable example of that early on because he was such a prominent and such a famous rapper to die of the disease. And I think it really woke up a lot of people about that, about the potential of it, as well as the need for safe sex and using protection and different things like that. And then later, his story was dramatized a few years ago when they made a documentary, or not a documentary. They made a Hollywood movie that was straight out of Compton. That was the early rap group of Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg and Eazy E and Ice Cube and everybody else. And him passing away of AIDS was kind of the most emotional low point of the movie. Towards the end of the movie that became dramatized.
- [156:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's definitely like a combination of the fifth and the sixth. And not just that, but the ruler of the fifth being so closely conjunct Pluto in the sixth, I think speaks to not only, I'm sure, the sizable musical entertainment impact he had, but also the taboo of that particular illustration, illness at the time. And coming from the fifth house.
- [156:53]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Especially in that time period of like the early 1990s.
- [156:58]
A
Right? Yeah, that's what I mean.
- [157:00]
B
Other stuff, when I was looking for ruler of the 5th and the 7th. Another example that came up in the Databases was the birth chart of Maria Shriver, who was born with Taurus rising and Mercury in Virgo. Virgo is the fifth whole sign house, and the ruler is Mercury in the sixth house. And famously, her husband was Arnold Schwarzenegger. But towards the end of their marriage, it was discovered that he had secretly fathered a child with the longtime maid who had worked for the couple for a long time. And then it came out and it led to the dissolution of their marriage. Marriage. And on the one hand, it's like, obviously there's a lot of stuff going on here. And a lot of this speaks more to the more tough part of her chart is actually the seventh house where we have the sun and Saturn in a night chart and the seventh house of marriage and the partner. But then I did notice that the ruler of the seventh house of marriage is in the sixth house, and then the ruler of the fifth house is in the sixth house. So there's something that's drawing us to the sixth house and like those that work for you or employees, as we talked about previously, and like importing that topic of relationships and sex and sexuality and then just a very specific manifestation of that in her life with Mercury, Mars and Neptune conjunct in the sixth house.
- [158:28]
A
Right? Yeah. I mean, the topic of a child or sexuality is like in the 6th House of Employees conjunct Neptune, which can be secrets, but it's also the ruler of the 12th in the 6th with those. Which is sort of doubling up. That meaning hiddenness.
- [158:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay. So that was it with that. And there was only one other example chart, but it was an anonymous one. And it was somebody that had the ruler of the fifth house of games in the sixth house of words. And they grew up and ended up working for a famous company, which is like Nike, where they work for another company and they act as an employee for that company, but it's a sports company. So I just thought that was a very literal manifestation of having the 5th House of Sports in the 6th House of Work and then working for this big corporation that focuses on sports, essentially.
- [159:33]
A
Yeah, that's a great combo and a very constructive combination of the fifth and sixth.
- [159:38]
B
Yeah, and that's a good one to end on because obviously there's a very wide variety of possible manifestations of different houses, especially when you start combining them, as well as a whole spectrum of positive to really challenging ways that different placements can manifest. Manifest depending on the placement, Right? Yeah. All right, I think that's good for the sixth house. So why don't we take a little break? If you're really looking to deepen your studies of astrology, then I would recommend signing up for my Hellenistic astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology where I take people from basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts. There's over 100 hours of video lectures, plus monthly webinars and Q and A sessions. And then at the end of the course, you get a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me. If you pass the final written test, find out More information@theastrologyschool.com All right, we're back from break and we are going to resume by talking about the seventh house, when it's connected with the ruler of the fifth house in different ways. So the seventh house is like relationships, partnership, and other people in general, especially direct one on one interactions and relationships. So our first example chart in the seventh house is one we talked about yesterday already in the previous episode, which is Jill Biden. We talked about her previously having the ruler of the ascendant in the 5th House of Children and being a lifelong educator and promoter of education. But then the ruler of the fifth house itself is in the seventh house of relationships. And she was the second wife of Joe Biden, because his first wife was killed in a car accident. And then they ended up getting together, and so then she became a stepmother to his other children. And so that sometimes you see, as we talked about, when there's a connection between the 5th and the 7th, because otherwise that sounds abstract. Of course, children would be connected with relationships, but sometimes it can mean the topic of relationships is imported into your life, life from somewhere else or from someone else.
- [161:51]
A
Right, Definitely. Yeah. And it's mostly coming from that ruler of the fifth in the seventh, for sure, additional layers that the ruler of the eighth, which is the moon, is also in the seventh. So that kind of combines the idea of one's partner having a loss and therefore her having sort of like new stepchildren.
- [162:14]
B
Yeah. And in fact, a friend of ours, friend of the show, Patrick Watson, has a similar placement where Patrick has Leo rising and Aquarius is the seventh house, and it's ruled by Saturn, which is in the fifth house of children. So the ruler of the seventh house of marriage and relationships is in the fifth house of children. And when he met his future wife, she already had a child. And so Patrick ended up becoming a stepfather. And then they had more children together and have had a long and happy family. But it was, again, just one of those instances where becoming a father to somebody else's child essentially is part of the initial delineation. And that also ties back a little bit in this instance with Saturn as well, which we talked about yesterday, where Valens gives one of those weird significations for Saturn of the fathers of other people's children, which I always thought was very abstract, but sometimes it can be very literally true.
- [163:15]
A
Yeah, definitely. And I remember talking with Patrick about that recently, and he was talking about the circumstances of the meeting and that it was much less gradual of a question of having children with a partner, but instead it was like, do you want to have children right now? Do you want to already have preexisting children? Like this moment, if you get together with us or person. And then of course they did have the other children. But yeah, so you can see how that's a more specific and important connection between the 5th and the 7th than just your general generic like, yeah, people have kids with their partner.
- [163:50]
B
Yeah, for sure. All right, so moving on. We had already talked about Maria Montessori as a great example of the ruler of the seventh house and the fifth house and how she had a child with another man, but it was like the early 20th century or the late 19th century and it was born out of wedlock. So she ended up having to keep it secret and send him away. And the child didn't know for the longest time that she was his mother. And then later in life they reconnected and worked together actually on her school involving children. So that's a more extreme example of that, especially read in her chart. But it's another variation of how this crossover can happen between relationships and children.
- [164:38]
A
For sure.
- [164:39]
B
One of the examples we already talked about extensively yesterday was Steven Spielberg. But since we're on this again, just to reiterate that Spielberg has the fifth house, which has the ruler of his ascendant, the moon, plus Venus and Jupiter there, but then also Mars is the ruler of the fifth house and it's in the seventh house of relationships. And you and I just watched the movie he came out with a few years ago, the Fabelmans, where he dramatizes part of his early life story. And one of the things that he dramatized was apparently foundational event in his life where he was making whole movies with his family that was out camping one summer. And then he later went home and edited it and he realized his mother was having an affair with a longtime family friend. And then that eventually ended up leading to the end of his parents marriage. And that's kind of part of that signature there in terms of the 5th House and romance or relationships, but then ruled by Mars and sort of severing or separating in terms of marriage or partnership. And his ear, the experience of that with his parents.
- [165:51]
A
Right. And finding out about something that would sever the parents relationship via his burgeoning artistic pursuits. He also collaborators.
- [166:03]
B
Okay, right, right, yeah. So that was actually the main thing is he's a director who really, really likes to collaborate not just with the same actors. Well, he'll keep working with the same actors over and over again, like Tom Hannah Hanks, for example, since it's not just like the ruler of his fifth house of creativity, but it's also the ruler of his 10th house of career. But he also famously works with the same music composer over and over again, John Williams, who scores pretty much all of Spielberg's movies. He works with the same producers like Kathleen Kennedy, as well as a number of other people.
- [166:38]
A
Right. And then the next example we have is pretty similar, right, in terms of those collaborations.
- [166:46]
B
Yeah. So the other one was the Weeknd, who similarly is not a director, but instead is like a major musician and performer. And he has cancer Rising, Scorpio, fifth house, and it's ruled by Mars, which is in Capricorn in the seventh. And he also famously has collaborated with a number of other really famous musicians. And that's one of the ways that he's really expanded his career in significant ways is through his collaborations with other people.
- [167:19]
A
Yeah.
- [167:20]
B
Another seventh house example I found that was fascinating in a completely different area was Phil Ivey, the poker player. So this is the birth chart of Phil Ivey, who's widely regarded as one of the best poker players today. And he has Scorpio rising and Venus. Venus is exalted in the fifth house of games and potentially gambling and chance and things like that. And it's in a mutual reception with Jupiter, which is in the seventh house of other people in direct one on one relationships. I think that's really fascinating because I think it kind of speaks to that. It's like he's playing this game against other people and he's playing and betting and having these one on one interactions, but he's ultimately coming out on top and is excelling as a result of that.
- [168:13]
A
That. Right, Definitely. Yeah. And I was talking about that in some previous section where you do sometimes see opponents in the seventh, but it can be friendly opponents in games, especially with the fifth and seventh connected.
- [168:27]
B
Right, Absolutely. Yeah. So that's really amazing. And he wasn't the only example. For some reason I saw other poker players where there were connections between the fifth and seventh houses. So it seemed to be. Be in some instances like a recurring theme.
- [168:42]
A
Right, for sure.
- [168:44]
B
So moving on, the next chart example is Christian Dior, who was born with Scorpio Rising. And the seventh house is Taurus, with a lot of fortune there. And the ruler of the seventh house is Venus, which is exalted in Pisces in the fifth whole sign House house. And one of the things I found really fascinating about this example when I found it the other day, was that Dior created the fashion empire. He was a French fashion designer and the founder of one of the world's top fashion houses. And his entire business was based on his relationship with his clientele, which is the women he dressed. And I think that's really what's coming out here, is the notion of Venus being exalted in the fifth house of creativity. And the highest expression of creating works of art and clothing or beautiful clothing that people wear, but then specifically that it's things that other people wear. He's designing women's clothing for other women to wear rather than for himself self, per se.
- [170:01]
A
Well. And if it's dressing like individual women, you know, in like, a high couture kind of way, it's literally clients, which is like a core seventh house signification, right?
- [170:12]
B
Yeah, exactly. So creating beauty and luxury as a fashion item is one of the things here. And I think that's another interesting manifestation of Venus being in its exaltation there and, like, sort of being raised up to the highest point possible.
- [170:31]
A
Mm, definitely.
- [170:33]
B
And then another thing that may be related is that Dior started, like, training his design assistant, who was Yves St. Laurent, who then was supposed to succeed him at Dior, and then later ended up, I think, creating his own fashion house eventually as well. So that it's like there may be this other one on one component as well. And then the final thing I thought was fascinating was that Christian Dior died while playing a game of cards. And Venus also rules the eighth house. So it's like the other delineation is the.
- [171:10]
A
Oh, you mean the 12th. You mean the 12th.
- [171:12]
B
Sorry. Yeah, the 12th house. That Venus isn't just the ruler of the seventh house, but it's also the ruler of the 12th house. And to pass away or to die as a result of playing or not. Well, during playing a card game, as a rule.
- [171:25]
A
Not as a result.
- [171:26]
B
Not as a result. Well, statistically, like, that's probably happen. But I don't have any time charts for anyone that's died from playing cards.
- [171:35]
A
Yeah, your heart rate gets really high. Like a really terrible hand.
- [171:40]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [171:42]
A
Yeah.
- [171:43]
B
Well, let's keep moving. We'll move on to the eighth house, which is everybody's favorite house house.
- [171:49]
A
Sounds good.
- [171:50]
B
Okay. So in the last episode, we had talked about the birth chart of Elon Musk and how he has the ruler of the fifth house in the eighth house. So Elon has cancer rising. Jupiter's in the fifth house of children, and it's ruled by Mars, which is in the 8th House of Death and mortality. And there's three interesting things with that. One of them is that his first child, I think, died in infancy of Sudden infant death symptom. So in that instance, it was a very literal manifestation of the loss of a child, the death of a child with the ruler of the fifth house of children and the eighth house of death and mortality. And that probably had a huge impact on him in some ways, psychologically. The other thing we talked about was how he has Jupiter in the fifth house of children. And he is. Has this personal philosophy where he thinks people should have as many children as possible because he's concerned about population decline, and he thinks that the world will be destroyed if the population keeps declining. So he's made it his personal mission to have as many children as possible with multiple different women. And he's up to, I think, 13 or something like that, known children. Although there might be. Be some, because there were some that weren't known. They were accidentally revealed at a later time. And he may have. I don't know if we know the total number for sure, if it's public at this point. But it's interesting that, again, the symbolism is very literal of Jupiter in the fifth house and having lots of children, but the ruler being in the eighth. And he's motivated by fears of the death of humanity or something like that.
- [173:38]
A
Right, for sure. And then the third way that manifests, of course, we talked about in the other episode is one of his children is transgender, and he talks about her as though she's died, because that's how it is for him. He hasn't accepted her, and so he just talks about her like she's dead. And it's interesting with the second and the third. You know, the first instance for him was a literal death of one of his children, but then the second and the third are more like fears of death or sort of more abstract fears of death. And then just like the sense that someone's died, even though they physically have not. But, you know, he's basically like, you know, she might as well be dead to him. So, yeah, it's interesting how some of these house topics can come up literally and sometimes more like metaphorically or abstractly.
- [174:27]
B
Yeah, and I think that's important because we've definitely been focusing more on literal manifestations, because I think most of the astrological tradition in the late 20th century and early 21st is more comfortable making psychological delineations. And so that's one of the things I've been trying to do in this series, is demonstrate how sometimes the symbolism can work out in very literal ways. But it also is important that sometimes the placements can manifest in a psychological way as well.
- [175:01]
A
Well, right, for sure.
- [175:03]
B
Yeah. So let's see. I had two other charts of two people I know who lost like Elon lost their first child in infancy due to sudden infant death syndrome. And both of them had the ruler of the fifth house of children and the eighth house of death. So that there was sort of indications in both parents charts, which was another literal example of that.
- [175:31]
A
That that's really striking because so often, you know, you have two different parents and they have different charts and sometimes one of them more than the other of the charts will speak to like the circumstances of whatever that's shared.
- [175:44]
B
Yeah, I mean, it can for sure be more clear or that there would be something going on there that's tricky or problematic unless there's major mitigations going on. Because in some instances you'll see the chart part have significant mitigations that offset that so that the worst case scenario doesn't happen. Yeah. But for sure, sometimes that can happen and it can have a major impact in the life. And it's important to be able to talk about that sometimes and be able to identify what that looks like in a chart because sometimes after it's happened, people look for answers. So I feel like it's less of a. A predictive thing and more of just an understanding what a person's chart indicates type thing that can sometimes be helpful in healing.
- [176:34]
A
Yeah, absolutely. It can be. It's very validating. And you know, if you're someone who does have the ruler of the 5th and the 8th, it does not always mean like a literal death of a child. Like sometimes it can be more like you said, mitigated, but also can point to other eighth house topics even. Especially if the condition is better, like your child is like a banker or something. So I just want to put that out there since we do have a number of ones where there's a literal child's death. That's not the only way that that combination can work out.
- [177:06]
B
Yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's see. The next example is one that I used, I think, in the fourth House episode. And it was the birth chart of Louis Pasteur. And he was born with Libra rising. And Aquarius is on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler of the fifth house is Saturn, which is in Taurus in the eighth house. And he lost a child early on in life. And this is part of what motivated him to start researching and doing some of his medical research, which eventually led to some really important advancements in terms of medicine.
- [177:50]
A
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's really interesting that he has the ruler of the fifth and the ruler of the sixth co present in the eighth. So I can see that motivation going from the fifth to the sixth, especially with Jupiter being the better placement of the two.
- [178:08]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So he's a famous chemist and pharmacist and microbiologist and through some of this loss, it pushed him to really develop some of his theories better. And he's one of the fathers of the germ theory of disease. And this led to the ability to develop ways to avoid different ways to avoid people from getting sick and from dying from certain things unnecessarily. And it sort of changed things. So this is more of a constructive example of how sometimes, let's say one of the worst tragedies, like the loss of a children, can sometimes push people to try to improve the lives of other people around them.
- [178:55]
A
Mm, definitely.
- [178:57]
B
Let's see. So the next one was a chart that I found the other day from a native known as Janet chance from the UK, who was born in the mid-19th century and had had Sagittarius rising and Aries on the fifth whole sign house. And the eighth house is Cancer with Saturn there. And the ruler of the eighth house is the moon, which is in Aries in the fifth whole sign house. Right?
- [179:26]
A
Mm. Yeah. And she was a prominent British feminist writer and social reformer who dedicated her life to advocating for women's reproductive rights and sexual. Sexual freedom. And she was a key figure in the movements for sex education, birth control and most notably, abortion law reform. She actually co Founded in 1936 the abortion law Reform association, which was instrumental in campaigning for the legalization of abortion in the uk, a cause that she championed until her own death. And that actual work, while it wasn't legalized during her lifetime, it laid the groundwork for the eventual passage of the Abortion Abortion act of 1967 in the UK. And the ruler of the 8th and the 5th here, I think, has to do with probably a couple things. One, literally, the termination of a pregnancy is part of what's going on here and that she cared about that. But also anyone who's championing reproductive rights, part of the reason is because pregnancy can be life threatening. And so by championing reproductive rights and safe things around that, and also safe abortions, it's really about preventing death via pregnancy.
- [180:49]
B
Right, yeah. And especially in that period, the much higher number of women that would die in childbirth.
- [180:59]
A
Yeah, for sure. Although it still happens, and especially unfortunately is still in the news today here because of the restrictions of Reproductive rights lately mean that more women are actually dying in pregnancy. So there is a very clear connection between these two houses and why she had that connection in her chart and the work she did.
- [181:20]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so moving on to some other 8th House topics. One of the ones I noticed that came up was the birth chart of Queen Elizabeth ii, where she was born with Capricorn rising. And the eighth house is Leo with the moon and Neptune there. And it's ruled by the sun, which is in Taurus in the fifth house of Children. And one of the things I thought was really fascinating was that when Queen Elizabeth died a few years ago, her son Charles immediately became king. And what was fascinating about that is, like, you know, Charles was really old by that point. And for, like, a long time, at least a decade or two, people were kind of waiting because it was expected that she was towards the end of her life and she would pass away at some point and hand over the reign to Charles. But then, like, she turned out to be, like, the longest reigning British monarch in history or, like, one of the longest reigning monarchs in the world. And this reminded me that sometimes in Indian astrology, they talk about the eighth house not just in terms of death, but also in terms of longevity. And this kind of made me think of that again in this context as well as. Just think about that. There's a signature here for a tie in between the topic of death and the topic of children. Or let's say 8th house is also inheritance and children. And just that there was so much speculation and almost, like, pressure for a long time of wondering when Charles would take over or if Charles would take over. Cause he started becoming like an old man himself at a certain point. So there almost could have been a scenario where he could have ended up passing away before she did.
- [183:11]
A
Right? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good example. And it's, you know, not the main point of this example, but it's funny that she has Capricorn rising, Saturn so closely conjunct the midheaven. And it's just that notion of just like, hanging on and hanging on forever, which is Saturn, kind of can do things for the long haul. And just how people were like, huh? When is he gonna become king?
- [183:38]
B
Right, yeah, for sure. Yeah. All right, so moving on to the next example. The next example I found was the birth chart of David Carradine. Because one of the questions I was having when I was thinking about out what symbolically could be a connection between the 8th House of Death and the 5th House of not just children, but also sex and sexuality. I was trying to look for some time charts of anybody who died during sex, which I have to imagine has happened a lot. But you'd be surprised at how few timed birth charts I was able to find. And there weren't as many. Sometimes there's a lot of ambiguity about whether a person had died from that or if it would be listed as other causes or something like that. So one of the charts they did find that was a really memorable one. It's like a noon chart, so you don't want to trust that. But noon is actually listed as the birth time, and that does happen. So David Carradine was like a famous actor, but then he died tragically in this freak incident that happened, what was it, a decade or two ago, where the cause of death was reportedly said to be autoerotic asphyxiation. Where some people, they like to choke themselves or to be out of breath in connection having an orgasm. And he must have been trying to do that, but then accidentally passed away or passed out and died. So he was born with Pisces rising. And cancer is the fifth whole sign house with Pluto the only planet in that sign. And then the ruler of the fifth house of sex and sexuality is the Moon, which is in Libra in the 8th House of Death and mortality conjunct Mars. So yeah, it's just a very literal instance, at least in this instance, of the end of his life coming about out in connection with sex and sexuality in this instance.
- [185:48]
A
And it's really further reinforced by the Moon, you know, after hitting what, two more planets it is applying by square to that Pluto in the fifth house. And the Moon is ruling Pluto while applying to Pluto in the fifth house from the eighth. So I think it's just like strengthening that connection further.
- [186:08]
B
Okay, yeah, definitely. So that's a tough one. But that was one of the ones I found in terms of just ways that again, sometimes the symbolism can be very, very literal.
- [186:21]
A
Yeah. And we should note this is also a day chart. So the Moon being co present with Mars on the 8th is notable compared to otherwise.
- [186:29]
B
Yeah, just cause then Mars is the most difficult planet.
- [186:33]
A
Yeah.
- [186:34]
B
All right, so moving on, my next example that I found in the databases when I was looking for connections between the 5th and the 8th. This is the birth chart of Omar Mateen, who is the Pulse nightclub shooter who several years ago went to a gay club in Florida and shot and killed a lot of people and who may have been motivated as a result of prejudice against homosexuality and things like that there's various speculations about what his motivation is, and there's actually a lot of murkiness surrounding it, but it ended up becoming the largest incident of something like this in the US History up to that point. And he was born with cancer rising and a stellium of four planets in Scorpio in the fifth house, which is Venus, which is retrograde, conjunct Pluto, and then Mercury, which is retrograde, and then the sun, all in Scorpio, and they're all ruled by this Mars, which is in Aquarius in the eighth house.
- [187:48]
A
Right. Yeah. Just to be clear, it was the deadliest known incident of violence against queer people in the US history. He killed 49 people and wounded 53 others just in that one mass shooting.
- [188:03]
B
Right. Which is just insane and gross and tragic. But, yeah, in this instance, it was like, once again, that's like, what this guy will forever be known for is the terrible person that killed a bunch of people at a gay club in Florida and then has this weird signature in his birth chart of a bunch of planets in the fifth ruled by a planet in the eighth.
- [188:32]
A
Mm, right.
- [188:34]
B
All right, so let's see. Moving on to other ones that are less depressing that are the eighth house. I was looking for an uplifting one, especially one connected with other things that actually come up in the eighth house more commonly, because there are good significations that come up in the eighth house, and one of the them is that the eighth house can have to do with other people's money. The second house is like your money, and the eighth house is sometimes other people's money. And one of the charts that I found is for a person named Reid Erikson. And the chart has Scorpio rising. Pisces is on the fifth whole sign house, and it contains the ic, and then the ruler is Jupiter, which is in Gemini in the eighth whole sign house in a day chart.
- [189:23]
A
Mm.
- [189:25]
B
So one of the things about Reed Erikson is that there's a bunch of things about Reed Erickson. One of them is that Reid was a trans man and philanthropist who became one of the most significant financial benefactors of the LGBTQ movement in the 20th century, like, from a very early point in time. So sort of it's tied up in a bunch of different things. But in 1964, he launched the Erikson Educational foundation, which is a nonprofit philanthropic organization funded and controlled entirely by Erikson. And through that organization, Erickson contributed millions of dollars to the early development of the lesbian, gay, bipolar, bisexual, transgender, and queer movements between 1964 and 1984, and ended up influencing a surprising amount of different things related to the LGBTQ movement, where they were using their immense wealth and channeling it through that foundation in order to provide foundational funding that helped to legitimize and advance the study of transgender identities of early gay and lesbian rights organizations and things like that.
- [190:46]
A
Yeah. And one of the things also in particular that was funded is he funded speaker bureaus that sent queer people to universities and community groups to share their life stories, to help to demystify queer identities through personal contact for groups or communities that might not not have had any personal connection before to anyone who was queer, or at least any knowing connection to anyone who's openly queer and therefore trying to fund these sort of outreach programs to demystify this kind of sexuality.
- [191:22]
B
Right, yeah. So that's really important. And he was born in 1917 and was doing this work in the 1960s and 70s and 80s. So just in terms of the timeline of things, that's pretty early on. One of the things I found interesting is that with the IC there in the fifth whole sign house, he was actually born into a wealthy Philadelphia family and ended up inheriting a significant fortune derived from his father's lead smelting business. So it's interesting that with the IC there in the fifth house, that it was like channeling some of that inherited wealth from the family and then distributing it to other people through the eighth house.
- [192:11]
A
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's interesting that he's got the icy ruler in the eighth, like that, that's Jupiter. And then the ruler of the fourth is that Saturn in the 10th, very closely sextile that Jupiter. So it's like part of his life's work was like tied into the family fortune.
- [192:31]
B
Yeah, exactly. And it's like Jupiter in a day chart. And then also this is another one besides the previous chart we looked at of one of the co founders of Amazon. Just where that idea of the fifth house and philanthropy comes up. And it's partially coming up here in a concrete way through the eighth house, which is like other people's money, but it's also partially a fifth house thing here. And that idea of good doing, like generosity. Yeah, exactly.
- [193:02]
A
Yep.
- [193:03]
B
All right, so that was one I found. And then only have one more chart in this section for the eighth house, which was Doyle Brunson.
- [193:14]
A
Mm. So Doyle Brunson is the ruler of the eighth house in the fifth. So he's got Sagittarius rising. The fifth house is Aries, with the moon and Uranus in Aries, and then cancer is the eighth house and the moon is ruling the eighth and placed in the fifth. And he's a poker player and he basically won money from playing other people. So it's essentially like other people's money are coming to him through a game, through a professional game. So he played professionally for over 60 years. He was a two time World Series of Poker Main Event champion, a Poker hall of Fame inductee, and the author of several books on poker. And most notably for our example here, he was the first player to win $1 million in poker tournaments. So you can clearly see the connection of the topic of other people's money and games in his instance.
- [194:11]
B
Yeah, because I was trying to do research, when I was trying to research the fifth house, things of people associating with games of chance and speculation and gambling and things like that. And this was one of the charts that came up that did show some sort of interesting connection with the fifth house. Although it's tricky because it's like the fifth house is clearly coming up in terms of games and potentially gambling. But in this instance, it's like channeling other people's money into. From the eighth house into the fifth house of games and in this instance, gambling. Right, yeah. So that is the last one to sort of round that out a little bit, where sometimes it's like financial things are coming up when it comes to the eighth house. And it's not always death or mortality or longevity or some of those other things, but oftentimes in the eighth house, you'll see a lot of financial things happening, right?
- [195:09]
A
Yeah, for sure. Other people's money, shared resources, etc.
- [195:13]
B
Yeah, for sure. All right, so now we're gonna transition into talking about the ninth house and what happens when the ninth house is interacting with the ruler of the fifth house in a birth chart. So the first chart I wanted to share is the birth chart of Gwen Stefani that I already talked about in a previous episode, I think yesterday in Part two. And it's not a very involved example, but basically she has the ruler of the ascendant in the fifth house of children, and the ruler of the fifth house of children is in the ninth house of Foreign travel and foreign places. And she had three children with Gavin Rossdale, who was the lead singer of the band Bush, and she was the lead singer of no Doubt. And because Gavin Rossdale is from the uk, her three children have dual US UK citizenship. So that's just like a very basic way that things can work out that somehow the Topic of children is partially operating in a ninth house context for her, and that's how it worked out in her life.
- [196:17]
A
Mm, good.
- [196:19]
B
All right. And did you want to talk about that example?
- [196:26]
A
Yeah. So the next one is going to be an anonymous example. You have the chart for it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the next chart we talked about abstractly, I think previously, but it was someone who had the ruler of the 5th House of Children in the 9th House of Education, foreign places, religion and belief systems. And this person had three children. And as they grew up, one of them who had had a long standing interest was and other cultures and other countries eventually moved across the world to a very different country and culture and actually renounced their US citizenship eventually. Then the second child grew up not in a super religious family, but became very much more religious as an adult to the extent that that was a primary motivating factor in their life decisions and where they lived and things like that. That. And then the third one, the third child became a teacher. And while higher education is more specifically associated with the ninth house, education more broadly can cross the third and ninth houses. And so you see in that particular example, it's another really simple one, but literally the ruler of the fifth house of children in the ninth house, each of three of the person's children and basically took up one of the ninth house major themes and it's like a major part of each of their lives.
- [197:58]
B
Yeah, that's really good. It shows you the range of how things can manifest in different ways in a person's life using different significations of that house.
- [198:09]
A
Exactly.
- [198:11]
B
All right, so moving on. The next example of Ninth House one that I have is a famous YouTuber named Natalie Nguyen who runs the YouTube channel ContraPoints. And I think it's really interesting because it's about philosophy and about ethics and politics and things like that. But they have Scorpio rising and Cancer is on the ninth whole sign house, which is usually religion and philosophy and politics. And the ruler is in the fifth house in Pisces, along with the North Node and one with the Lot of Fortune. And even though it's a philosophy and politics channel, they always do a very elaborate presentation and theatrical style and presentation of outlining these video essays of whatever their topic is. And you can look up contrapoints just to see what I'm talking about and to see the visual flair and theatrical style of it. But it was interesting to me that there's this strong connection between the ninth house of philosophy and the fifth house of creativity.
- [199:19]
A
Definitely. Yeah, that's a great one.
- [199:22]
B
Yeah. All right, moving on. Our next one is Judith Butler. And this is one you've looked into, Right?
- [199:28]
A
So Judith Butler is an American feminist philosopher and gender studies scholar whose work has influenced political philosophy, ethics in the fields of third wade, feminism, third way of feminism, queer theory, and literary theory. And so her chart, or their chart, they go by both she and they. Aries rising, with the fifth house being Leo the Moon, and Jupiter and Pluto are in the fifth house, and the ninth house is Sagittarius. And the ruler of the ninth, then is Jupiter in the fifth house in Leo. And the thing that I love about about this example is one of the notable theories that Judith Butler is known for is that of gender performativity. So essentially that one's gender identity is not like a fixed and given thing, but it's a performance that you enact through behaviors, clothing, actions, et cetera. And I thought, what a perfect and literal connection between the 9th House of Academic work and also philosophy and belief systems, too. Theorizing put not only in the fifth house, but Jupiter in the fifth house in the sign of Leo, arguably its most performative placement. It's like Leo Ann, the fifth house. And just to take it one step further, with Aries rising, the ascendant ruler is Mars in the ninth house in Sagittarius, and then that is ruled by that Jupiter. And so it really neatly connects the topics of personal identity, philosophy and theories and performance. And it's just such an elegant example. And I really love, as with the Theodore Adorno example earlier, I really love just seeing people's theorizing and how it matches up perfectly with their own charts.
- [201:20]
B
Yeah, for sure, Definitely. Great example.
- [201:23]
A
There's just one more thing about that. So amusingly, I suddenly wondered what those fifth house plays with. Had Judith Butler ever acted in a show, any acting experience? So amusingly, in February 2020, she performed in an experimental stage show called Fragments, Lists and Lacuna, in which they played a character based on their own academic profession, a comparative literature professor. The major acting thing they did was like, as a ninth house figure.
- [201:56]
B
Nice. Very good. Yep. So speaking of that, like, here's the chart of Anita Bryant, who was born with Leo rising and the sun, the ruler of the ascendant in the 9th House of Religion and philosophy. And it's co present with Jupiter, which is the ruler of the fifth house of sex and sexuality, which is in the ninth house in Aries, along with the South Node. And. And Anita Bryant was famous for a lot of activism basically against gay people. In the nineteen, she was like an anti gay crusader. In the 1960s and 1970s, and particularly.
- [202:39]
A
In the 1970s, most famously, she was connected. She was in Florida. She was connected with helping to pass and publicize a law prohibiting like striking down protections against gay people in the workplace. And she was the leader of a group called Save Our Children. So it was like. Sorry, I need a moment.
- [203:07]
B
Yeah, yeah, she was involved in that. And there was a law, because we had talked about this earlier this year and the episode about Venus retrograde in Aries, because a lot of it started with her in 1977, which was one of the Venus retrogrades in Aries, which is so important as turning points in queer history. And that sometimes there's these major setbacks or periods of fierce opposition and attempts basically to discriminate against or revoke the rights of, of gay and queer people. Like the Venus retrograde we were experiencing that happened in Aries earlier this year. Or that was a repetition of 1977 when she was starting some of her campaigns to do some of that.
- [203:58]
A
Mm, right. For sure. Yeah. And interestingly, cause she's got a day chart. It's like the ruler of the fifth in the ninth is like she's both crusading again against protections for queer people legally, which is a ninth house topic and based on her belief systems, but it's a day chart. So that in turn is ruled by Mars in the 10th. And apparently she got a lot of public backlash for it. So even though she helped win get this temporary win against protections for queer people, her professional life took a hit.
- [204:34]
B
Right? Yeah. And some of it was being done. So on the one hand, we're talking about the ruler of the fifth house of sex and sexuality and the ninth house of religion. And she's basically discriminating against gay people and queer people due to her religious beliefs. And it's kind of simple as a delineation like that. There's other elements as well where she was using children as a pretext for it and trying to argue that gay people were preying on children or something dumb like that. So you can kind of see multiple ways in which the symbolism is working out. But the take home lesson is just that sometimes when there's a connection between the fifth and the ninth, it can connect the person's religion or philosophy with topics of sex and sexuality or topics of children for some reason in the life.
- [205:25]
A
Right, yeah. And we'll see another one of those in a future charts.
- [205:28]
B
Yeah. All right, so moving on. I don't want to focus on this too much. But I did find a really interesting one with Siskel and Ebert, the two media critics who famously, for years would rate movies and came up with a thumbs up or thumbs down system. Two thumbs up or two thumbs down system. Both of them have the ruler of the fifth in the ninth, and having it connected with Saturn or something closely parallel that. So this is the chart of Roger Ebert with Libra rising, Aquarius on the fifth house, and Saturn in the ninth house. I thought that was really interesting, that connection, just because with Saturn, the fifth house is like creativity. And Saturn can be very critical if things. And they were almost approaching it in this quasi academic context, in addition to writing newspaper articles and hosting a show about it. But they became the authorities or the figures that people would go to for their wisdom on whether or not you should go see a movie because of their critical analysis of it, which is very much like a ninth house type thing. And I was just fascinated how that symbolism ended up working out for both of them.
- [206:51]
A
Them, yeah, that's a really unique example.
- [206:57]
B
So with Siskel, we'll look at his chart again later. But it's like Mars, Saturn conjunction in the fifth, and it's ruled by the moon, which is in Scorpio in the ninth. And I thought that Saturn and Mars connection was really interesting just because critics can be sometimes tearing apart. You think about the process. They're tearing apart somebody else's artist creation and judging it or criticizing it. And you have, at least in his instance, the two malefics there.
- [207:28]
A
Right? Yeah. That's a really interesting metaphorical way that's playing out.
- [207:32]
B
Right, let's move on. So the next one is Robert Mapplethorpe.
- [207:39]
A
Yeah. So he had Scorpio rising with Jupiter Sun, Mars and Scorpio in the first, and then cancer was the ninth house. The lot of fortunes there. It's ruled by the moon, which is in Pisces, in the fifth house. So it's the ruler of the ninth and the fifth. He was an American photographer best known for his black and white photographs, often of nudes, and his most controversial works documented and examined the gay male BDSM subculture of New York City in the late 1960s and early 1970s. And in 1990, the contemporary art center in Cincinnati and its director were legally charged with obscenity for a retrospective exhibit of his work. For putting his work up. It was eventually ruled not guilty by a jury, but at the time, at least for a little while, it sparked a national debate over the constitutional limits of free speech. And the definition of obscenity. It was really interesting and clear connection in his case, at least at one point in time, connecting legal issues related to the arts with the ruler of the 9th House of Legal System in the 5th House of Creativity.
- [208:52]
B
Nice. Yeah, that's a good one. Laws in the ninth house we'll often see. Or the government. All right, so moving on to the next example.
- [209:03]
A
Yeah, so the next one's gonna be Andrea Dworkin. And she was got her chart, Aquarius rising. The ninth house is Libra with the sun, Neptune, Mercury and the moon there in Libra in the ninth. And Mercury is ruling the fifth house. Gemini placed in the ninth house, and that's Stellium. And she was kind of a famous anti pornography feminist. She was one of a bunch of famous feminist figures at that same time, but she was known as the a anti porn one. And she was very hardcore about it. And we were looking at this example. She's also got the ascendant rulers Saturn and Leo in the seventh conjunct, Pluto. And it seemed like her views about pornography were very much based on it's all about domination and power and control and really unhealthy dynamic. And I think that was coming from the Saturn Pluto ruling her ascendant in the seventh house and some personal experiences in relationship as well. But this one, we were talking about this one kind of like brainstorming different chart possibilities. And this one seemed to be like her belief system was very strongly linked to the topic of sex and sexuality. And that's why she was known for that.
- [210:28]
B
Right. I mean, it provides a. A similar counterpoint with the Anita Bryant chart where her negative views on sex and sexuality and homosexuality were being fueled by your religious beliefs. And here we have again somebody that has a connection with the fifth house of sex and sexuality and their philosophical beliefs are strongly informing them or making them feel very strongly about certain things related to that.
- [211:00]
A
And I meant to note that the Saturn Pluto is not just in the seventh, but it's in an overcoming square to Venus as a general significator of love and relationships and desire. So there's just something that is bound to feel very difficult for this person, but it's also that this person has a strong belief around sex and sexuality that maybe the next person just wouldn't feel as strongly about one way or the other other.
- [211:25]
B
Right, yeah. All right, so moving forward, the next chart example is Etienne Emile Balliou. And they were known as a French biochemist and endocrinologist who was known for working in the field of steroid hormones and reproduction and aging. And he's been nicknamed the father of the abortion pill, mainly as a result of his abortion inducing drug, RU486. So basically, he was one of the researchers that helped to come up with one of the primary abortion pills that was used as a non surgical option as opposed to a surgical option, which is what was more available up to that point. So with his chart, he has Scorpio rising and. And cancer is the ninth house where we find Pluto and the north node. And the ruler of the ninth house is the moon, which is placed in the fifth house in Pisces with Uranus in the ic. And so the primary thing I just picked up on this one is just there's this education and this research component with the ninth house, and it's being directed towards something in the fifth house. And this instance it ended up affecting pregnancy and other things related to that. And he became an advocate for that pill even when the company withdrew the product and it ended up propelling him into the limelight of the entire abortion debate in general.
- [213:07]
A
Yeah, that's a good one.
- [213:09]
B
Yeah. All right, moving on. The next one I found when I was researching fifth and ninth house examples, was a journalist named Joseph Alsop, who was like a famous American journalist. And this chart has Virgo rising and Capricorn on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler of the fifth house is Saturn, which is in Taurus in the ninth house house in a night chart. And since it's the night chart, Saturn is the most challenging planet. So it's creating some sort of connection between the 5th House of Sex and Sexuality and the 9th House of Foreign places. And what happened is that Alsop was homosexual in the 1950s and kept it this really closely guarded secret all of his life. But then in 1957, the Russian KGB, the Secret Service essentially of Russia, photographed him in a hotel room in Moscow having sex with another man who was a Soviet agent. And then the Soviets basically attempted to blackmail him, going so far as in the 1970s, they sent photos of him, embarrassing photos, to several prominent American journalists. So Alsop struggled with this and considered making his homosexuality public in order to end these years of harassment, but ultimately didn't end up going through and doing that. And I just thought that was really fascinating that, yeah, there's this connection where the ruler of the fifth house of sex and sexuality is in the ninth house of foreign places. And one, one of the great hardships was literally being blackmailed over one's sexuality by a foreign country.
- [215:07]
A
Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. Terrible, of course. But sometimes you see Saturn in the ninth for different people, and it's like, for some reason, some of the most challenging circumstances they have are either when they travel to a foreign country or something involving people, you know, at a great distance in another country. But here it's showing, like, the topic of why that was the case here.
- [215:31]
B
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so moving on. We mentioned Lucille Ball yesterday and had a discussion about her with the Ruler of the Ascendant in the Fifth and I Love Lucy and stuff. But she also had the ruler of the fifth house of Love and Romance in the ninth house of foreign places. And one of the things I don't think we mentioned in connection with. With her major hit TV show was also her connection, her romance with Desi Arnaz, who was famous as, like, a Cuban. Who was Cuban and had a heavy Cuban accent. And that played, like, a major role as part of their. Not just their interactions, but also that television show.
- [216:13]
A
Yeah, that's a great additional example here of the 5th and the 9th. 9th. And then also, as we talked about previously, the ruler of the 5th and the 9th here played out when Lucille Ball was younger and her mother tried to get her away from a romance she didn't approve of by sending her off to school for performance. And so the ruler of the 5th and the 9th is like what the malefics and the 5th is like going away to school because of that.
- [216:41]
B
Yeah, because she was dating a much older guy that was up to no good or was a local ruffian. And the mother wanted to get Lucille away from him. So she appealed to Lucille's desire to be in show business and sent her off to school for that, basically.
- [217:00]
A
Exactly.
- [217:02]
B
Yeah. So a similar case is Robin Williams, who was born with Scorpio Rising and Pisces. The ruler of the Ascendant is Mars, which is in Cancer, in the ninth whole sign house along with Uranus in the Sun. And the ruler of the ninth house of Education is in Pisces, in the fifth House of Creativity and Expression and things like that. And one of the things I was reading about in his biography is that he initially was going to school for something else. After high school, he enrolled in Claremont Men's College and started studying political science. But then he ended up actually dropping out to pursue acting and then got a scholarship to go to the Juilliard School, which is a private performing arts conservatory in New York City. And even though he didn't end up finishing his schooling there, it seemed like that this education and going there to start studying performance was a really important turning point for him in his life. And he surprised people because he didn't just do comedy, but he also started demonstrating his dramatic acting abilities as well.
- [218:22]
A
That's great. And that's so fascinating that he was first going for politics because that's also a ninth house thing, right?
- [218:28]
B
Yeah, totally. And then finally I found this other quote that I think this was from Wikipedia, but it said during a television interview on Inside the actors studio in 2001, Williams credited his mother as an important early influence on his humor. And he tried to make her laugh to gain attention. So I thought that was really interesting with just like the moon in the fifth house and the moon sometimes just literally representing the mother, and it's in the fifth house, which we associated with, like, laughter and comedy. And he was trying to make his mother laugh in order to get her attention.
- [219:03]
A
That's interesting. That's an interesting parallel, too, with Steven Spielberg with the moon and the fifth. And that his mom in a different way, but his mom was like a creative person, an artistic person.
- [219:14]
B
Yeah, exactly. That sometimes when there's a specific planet, especially like a luminary in the fifth house, it will represent the person's parent and something about. About that specific parent playing a pivotal role in informing what they end up doing with their life based on the house placement and something very specific like that.
- [219:37]
A
Right.
- [219:38]
B
All right, so I believe that's the end of the ninth house.
- [219:41]
A
It is.
- [219:42]
B
Okay, so let's transition into talking about the 10th house and what happens when it's connected with the 5th house in astrology. And this house is tricky because we had a of lot of charts and we had to cut a bunch of them out. But when you're talking about the ruler of the 10th House of Career and connecting it with the fifth house, you end up finding a lot of people that, as part of their career or their public reputation, end up being involved in either work with children or the arts and creativity and other fifth house topics like that. So it almost could be as long as the list of the ascendant ruler in the. The fifth house. Because, like the ascendant ruler, sometimes when the ruler of the 10th is in the 5th, it can direct something about the person's overall career and life direction towards fifth house topics.
- [220:35]
A
Right. Like these are the people who are known for having creative careers. So you find a lot of those.
- [220:40]
B
Yeah, exactly. So my first example of that is Beverly Cleary, who's a famous children's book author. So Beverly Cleary. She was born with Libra rising and Aquarius on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler is Saturn, which is placed in cancer in the 10th whole sign house. And she was one of the most famous children's book authors.
- [221:05]
A
Yeah, so she was one of America's most successful authors too. 91 million copies of her books have been sold worldwide since her first book was published in 1950. And some of her best known characters are. Some of the books are named for them too. Ramona Quimby, Beezus Quimby, Henry Huggins and his dog Ribsy and Ralph S. Mouse. So yeah, and she was historically known for attention to the daily minutiae, the daily details of childhood, specifically the experience of children growing up in middle class families. And so yeah, it wasn't just that her creative output is there, of course, with the fifth House ruler in the 10th, but it was also about childhood and it was books for children and about childhood.
- [221:59]
B
Yeah. One of the things I thought was funny is that Saturn is also ruling the fourth house of Home and Living Situation. And her Wikipedia biography says that the majority of of her books are set in the Grant park neighborhood of Northeast Portland, Oregon, where she was raised. So it's like she's incorporating this element into a lot of her children's books of where she's from and where her origins are. Her living situation. So it's like the ruler of the fourth house of Home and Living Situation, the fifth house of children in the tenth house of Career.
- [222:33]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. And interestingly, she started out before that as a children's library, so it was still connecting career and children and books.
- [222:42]
B
Nice. So moving on to the next one. This one I had already mentioned, but just to reiterate, this is the chart of Billie Jean King, who has the ruler of the fifth House of Games and Sports in the 10th House of Career. And she was the number one tennis player in the world at one point in time. All right, Another example, I don't know if we mentioned her, but we mentioned Steven Spielberg recently and how he has the Ruler of the Ascent and the fifth. And he often featured different child actors in his movies. And this is probably the most prominent example. This is the birth chart of Drew Barrymore, who was one of the child actors featured in Steven Spielberg's movie E.T. and how she became super famous very early in life as a child actor as a result of that and other roles. And she was born with Gemini Rising and Libra on the the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler is Venus, which is exalted in Pisces conjunct Jupiter in the 10th whole sign house in a day chart.
- [223:46]
A
Yeah, I love that double signification bringing to the 10th house both just the creative work in general as well as her being known specifically as a child actor for a while.
- [223:56]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So obviously she has gone on to do a number of other things as an actress, a producer, a director, and especially more recently a topic talk show host. But it's just interesting that she first rose to prominence basically at the age of 11 for her role in that Steven Spielberg film E.T. and then actually Spielberg became her godfather as a result of that.
- [224:24]
A
I think she was 11.
- [224:27]
B
Yeah.
- [224:28]
A
Did you already say the timing? Cause I'm noticing the timing of that. That's a 12th house profection year, which activates that Venus also ruling the fifth. And so sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. Two houses ruled by the same planet. You know, even if it's a 12th house profection or it's activating the fifth house in the 10th.
- [224:48]
B
Right, yeah. All right, so moving on. The next one I found is the famous painter. Henri Matisse was born with Leo Rising. Sagittarius is the fifth house and the ruler is Jupiter, which is up in taurus in the 10th whole sign house conjunct the midheaven and Pluto. And Henri Matisse became one of the most famous painters of the 20th century.
- [225:16]
A
Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, Especially it's interesting though, the moon, Saturn. I think you noted something about later in life.
- [225:30]
B
Yeah, just that I was reading some of the biography and it said when he was in ill health in his final years, it actually prevented him from painting. So there's like a blockage of doing his favorite thing. So he ended up switching to and created a whole important body of work in the medium of cut paper collages. And that became like this whole other era in terms of his creative output of just still wanting to create display despite the inability to do one of his more primary things.
- [226:03]
A
Right, yeah. That's interesting, huh? Yeah. He was really a well known painter, although he did other printmaking and sculpting. Yeah.
- [226:15]
B
Yeah. All right, moving on. The next one is Lin Manuel Miranda, right?
- [226:21]
A
Yeah. So, Lyn, I think a lot of people know know who he is at this point, but if not, he's American songwriter, actor, singer and filmmaker. He famous most famously created the popular Broadway musicals Hamilton and in the Heights, and then also did soundtracks for the animated films Mona Vivo and Encanto. And he's just won like a slew of awards, basically all the awards you can get for these types of things. He's won 14 awards so far. And, yeah, he's just known as super successful with regard to doing these musicals. So ruler of the 5th, which is Leo the Sun in Capricorn in the 10th house, along with the Moon and Mercury in Capricorn.
- [227:07]
B
Yeah, I like that because it's in an era in which plays are not as big as they were back in the 1800s or something like that. Before film and before movies, it was like this huge hit play and musical, Hamilton, that came out in 2015. And one of the things that was interesting about that, that I noticed later in retrospect, that Venus went retrograde that summer in Leo. So the summer that it was hitting its height and it was the talk of the town, Venus was actually going retrograde in his fifth whole sign house.
- [227:44]
A
I love the that.
- [227:45]
B
Yeah. So I thought that was cool. And that was also the summer actually of not just Venus retrograde, but also Venus retrograde, conjoining Jupiter in his fifth house. So pretty cool timing.
- [227:57]
A
Yeah.
- [227:58]
B
So moving on, our next example that I found is Debbie Reynolds. And Debbie Reynolds has Libra rising, or had Libra rising. And cancer is the 10th house, and it's ruled by the moon, which is in Aquarius in the fifth house. Co present with Saturn. And Debbie Reynolds was a famous Hollywood actress and then interestingly, ended up having a child who would go on to become a famous Hollywood actress as well, Carrie Fisher, later on in life, which is Carrie Fisher, who famously played Princess Leia in Star wars and became mega well known for that, as well as later for other roles and doing script writing and other things like that. So it was just an interesting instance of somebody who was a very prominent actress and singer whose career spanned almost 70 years in both television and film, but then would go on to then have a child adult who also followed in the same profession.
- [229:09]
A
Mm. Yeah. I just love these charts where it's expressing the combination of houses is expressing, like, more than one notable thing, Right?
- [229:18]
B
Yeah. And that's what's important, is, like, sometimes at one part of your life, it could be expressing, like, one version of that placement, and then at another part in your life, it could express a completely different version of that placement.
- [229:31]
A
Absolutely.
- [229:33]
B
Yeah. All right. So moving on. Another one I found when I was looking for examples was Leonardo DiCaprio, who's born with Libra rising. Aquarius is the fifth house and the ruler is Saturn, which is placed in cancer in the 10th house. And Leonardo DiCaprio was famously a child actor early on and then has Grown up and become one of the leading actors of his generation.
- [229:59]
A
Right.
- [230:01]
B
So very prominent example of an actor with the ruler of the 5th and the 10th. One of the things I was thinking of though when I was researching this is I always struggled for a long time. Cause I've used his charter as an example since like the early 2010s. And there was this period for a while where it was like he had tried to. And he'd been a standout actor for years, but he hadn't won an Oscar. And he kept. It kept just not happening. And there was this period of time in his career where it was like he hadn't won an Oscar and it seemed like he was never going to or that he was having bad luck of just being against people that were edging him out every single year. And that was kind of the Saturn in the 10th house and the night chart placement that otherwise didn't make sense because he was very successful in terms of his career. But I could see that it was mitigated by that very close degree based trine with Venus at 19, Scorpio trining Saturn at 18 degrees of cancer. But then it was like he won an Oscar finally. I think it was for the movie the Revenant. And then that issue sort of disappeared. But one I was thinking about recently is like the only sort of blemish on his career at this point is he's been known. He's become kind of notorious for dating younger women who are under the age of 26 or something like that. And so it's almost become like a running joke at this point that he gets a new girlfriend once they hit a certain age or something like that. And I don't know all the details obviously behind that, but it was striking to me that with the ruler of the fifth house in the 10th house in a night chart, that that could be part of that symbolism in terms of terms of some issues, in terms of his reputation, just in terms of his love life or his dating life and things like that.
- [231:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, I bet that's the case. I mean, I know the phenomenon of the running joke at this point. I mean, it's interesting that the ruler of the 10th is that moon in Libra in the first house. And so career is very front and center in his life. But it's like the Ruler of the fifth is like making an overcoming square to that even though there's reception. So, yeah, I think you're definitely onto something with that manifestation.
- [232:20]
B
Yeah. So I don't know, we'll see how it goes, and we'll see if that changes in the future. But it's just a current. Perhaps like the other thing. It was like a current thing for a period of time and then it changed. But we'll see what happens. Okay, so moving on. The next chart I found was. This is the birth chart of Jonny Synthesis, who is a famous male porn actor at this point in time. And he has Taurus rising and he has Aquarius on the tenth whole sign house. And the ruler of the tenth house of career is Saturn in Virgo in the fifth whole sign house. And that's his thing. He's just a famous male contemporary male porn actor who's done hundreds of movies and other things like that. That.
- [233:08]
A
Do you happen to know if that's his given name or if he changed it as a stage name?
- [233:13]
B
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that's a stage name.
- [233:17]
A
That's pretty funny.
- [233:19]
B
Yeah. Yeah, I think you pick a stage name. All right, so let's see. So moving on. The next one is T. Corine. I had found her because she was a famous photographer, an author, an editor, but she's really notable for her portrayals of sexuality in her artwork. And according to. There's a book titled Completely the Gay and Lesbian Encyclopedia. It says that Corinne is one of the most visible and accessible lesbian artists in the world, where she often focuses on creating these really beautiful images that are focused on lesbian sexuality. So her chart is. Is Scorpio rising. Pisces is the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler is Jupiter, which is up there in Leo in the 10th House. Co present with the midheaven, the North Node and Pluto.
- [234:13]
A
Yeah, that's impressive. Not just the connection between the 5th and the 10th of both artistic creation, but also sexuality, but that it is Jupiter in Leo in a day chart in the. In the 10th house. As long as it's an exact. Yeah, as long as the time is exact. And then the ruler of the 10th is that sun in Scorpio. Right on the ascendants. Really prominent connections between artistic creativity and sexuality and career in her chart.
- [234:45]
B
Right? Yeah, exactly. All right, so moving on. The next one is Dorothy Dandridge, who I think we talked about a little bit in the last episode. But. But she was a famous actress who was born with Leo rising. Taurus is on the 10th whole sign house. And the ruler is Venus, which is in Sagittarius retrograde in the fifth whole sign house. Yeah, in the fifth house. The place of children in a night chart. So Dorothy Dandridge is famous because she was the first African American film star to be nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actress for her role in the movie Carmen Jones. So, on the one hand, that's striking and important in and of itself, but then there's this other component to it that's kind of tricky with the retrograde. And also the fact that the ruler of the fifth house itself is Jupiter, which is in Scorpio in the fourth under the beams, which is that in that role, she actually ended up having an affair with the director, who was married at the time, and then she became pregnant during the course of the production, but then she was forced by the studio to have an abortion in order to avoid a scandal and in order to protect her career. And this took place partially during the making of Carmen Jones in 1954, although I've seen some conflicting accounts, sometimes saying 1955. But nonetheless, it's wild that on the one hand, it's like having that landmark role with the ruler of the 10th and the 5th, but then it also being partially tied up in this other thing that was happening privately at the time in terms of her personal life.
- [236:27]
A
Mm. Right. Yeah. We're mostly focusing on, like, the connection between two houses, but, you know, occasionally commenting on the other ones because there's always more interconnections telling the full story between different houses.
- [236:41]
B
Yeah, exactly. We're trying to, like, simplify things as much as possible to focus on our primary thing, but things are often. And multiple houses are relevant, or there's multiple things involved.
- [236:53]
A
Right, yeah.
- [236:55]
B
All right. So the next one I found in my research was Bugsy Siegel. And this was interesting because it has some overlap with some of the gambling stuff that we were talking about previously with the fifth and ninth house. But Bugsy Siegel was a mobster who was involved a lot in gambling and prostitution and womanizing, and most notably for setting up one of the early casinos in Vegas that was, like a casino hotel that was really high class. And it ended up starting the whole trend of having these huge mega hotel casinos in Vegas, which eventually led to the whole whole Vegas Strip and everything else. And he was involved in that. What I found fascinating about its chart was just it has Scorpio rising, and it has this whole stellium of planets in the fifth house, including Mercury and Venus and the sun and Saturn. And then the ruler of the fifth house is Jupiter, which is placed in Taurus in the seventh house. But let's see. But part of it is just that Leo's on the 10th House of Career and the ruler is the sun, which is in the fifth house, which we've already talked about in connection potentially with games and gambling and things like that. But it's interesting that on the one hand, it's like Venus is there in a night chart, so he's benefiting from that greatly. But then on the other hand, Saturn is there and there's this underworldly component because it's like the maw. And he's doing it partially in the context of sometimes like extorting people or other things like that. And then eventually, due to some of his mishandling of the casino in Vegas, the mob ordered a hit on him and had him shot, basically.
- [238:53]
A
Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. So anytime you find like the benefic of sect and the malefic contrary dissect in the same house, you'll at some point in life experience both of those. They don't negate each other. And that is a great example of that. I'm glad you found such a core gambling Las Vegas example, because that really does go in the fifth house. But we just had a few of them, but that's a really good one.
- [239:19]
B
Yeah, exactly. All right. And the last one that we found is Shelley Thornton, who was actually the baby that was involved in the Roe vs. Wade case that we were talking about earlier. And this was fascinating because her birth time came out at some point, like a few years ago, and data collectors found it, I think, when a birth certificate was released or something. But she has Gemini rising. And interesting, as we were talking about earlier, the ruler of the ascendant is in the 12th house, and that whole notion of what happens prior to birth. But the most fascinating thing is that Pisces is the 10th whole sign happening house, and it's ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in the fifth house of children. And long story short was that her mother tried to have an abortion, but then was in Texas and was stopped. So she still ended up having the child. And this is the birth chart of the child, basically. And then because of that entire court case, though, it ended up, for a time, it ended up legalizing abortion in the United States through the Supreme Court decision. And it's just wild that this is like the birth chart of the person who that court case was based on.
- [240:35]
A
Right, yeah. And so her having the ruler of the 10th and the fifth, even if it's something she wasn't trying to choose, something very publicly about her very existence was directed towards fifth house topics. Like a reproduction, right?
- [240:51]
B
Yeah, exactly. So that kind of rounds out that entire Topic and everything in terms of that and in terms of a bunch of our 10th House examples.
- [241:06]
A
Can I mention a timing thing with her? Yeah. I noticed when we were looking her up because I had found the chart earlier of the woman who was the plaintiff for Roe v. Wade. And you were like, wait, let me see if we have the other chart. Chart. And so I was looking up timing and the day that Roe v. Wade was overturned, June 24, 2022, transiting Uranus was exactly conjunct Shelley Thornton's ascendant ruler Mercury at 17 Taurus in the 12th house. And I just thought that was fascinating because again, it's not something she chose as part of her life, but her ascendant ruler being one of the most primary placements about her existence and who she is, that that was like a major transit, like, you know, a changing transit to her ascendant ruler. And the case was, you know, in part about her. It was about her biological mom and it was about her.
- [242:01]
B
Wow, that's really wild.
- [242:02]
A
Yeah.
- [242:04]
B
Yeah. Well, that's a good example that sometimes the chart is representing the impact that a person's life and existence has had on the world in general in some broader sense. Sense. And sometimes that's why it continues to respond to important transits even if they aren't directly affecting you in some instances, even after you've died. People's charts, if their memory comes up or something about them becomes prominent again in the future, the chart will sometimes still be reacting to that.
- [242:37]
A
Exactly. Yeah.
- [242:39]
B
Yeah. All right, let's transition to Talking about the 11th House and its connection with the ruler of the fate fifth. So my first example that I found of this is Sally Struthers, who was a famous actress or is a famous actress. But what's actually most interesting about her is that she's done a lot of work with child's charities that she's like very well known for. So she was born with Libra rising and Aquarius is on the fifth whole sign house. And only the lot of fortune is there there. And the ruler is Saturn, which is in leo in the 11th whole sign house conjunct Pluto and the sun. And so what's really interesting about her as a figure is that she did a lot of work advocating for impoverished children. And according to Wikipedia, for example, there's a paragraph, it says Struthers was a spokesperson for Christian Children's Fund Fund, later renamed the Child Fund, advocating on behalf of impoverished children in developing countries. And for decades they would run these commercials so that she became the most recognizable face of this organization, which is now Child Fund International, and essentially acted as their spokesperson. So Beginning in the 1970s, she appeared in a series of these really powerful and widely broadcast television commercials and infomercials.
- [244:12]
A
Where.
- [244:15]
B
They typically featured her going to developed countries and often sitting in a barren landscape or a modest dwelling place and then holding or interacting with a child who is living in extreme poverty. And she would make a really emotional and direct appeal to the camera, asking viewers to sponsor a child for a small amount of money per day, often famously using the phrase, phrase for the price of a cup of coffee, and then saying, you could sponsor a child to survive and to be able to eat. So the commercials and her advocacy was incredibly successful, and it raised hundreds of millions of dollars over the years, where she was using her celebrity as an actress and combining it with these heartfelt appeals to motivate tons of Americans to become child sponsors. And I thought that was a really amazing example of having the ruler of the 5th House of Children in the 11th House of Groups and organizations and alliances and things like that, and becoming the figurehead of this child's charity, essentially.
- [245:28]
A
You often see nonprofits. Nonprofit organizations show up in the 11th house, partly because. Because they're a group, partly because nonprofits often have to work together in alliances, which is also an 11th house thing. But also the social activism, social change work can be an 11th house thing because it's dealing with the larger social sphere.
- [245:49]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So it ties in also some of those philanthropic connotations of both the fifth house and the 11th house as well.
- [245:58]
A
Yeah, it does, yeah. And also Saturn ruling the fifth in the 11th and then placed closely conjunct Pluto, I think we were talking about, speaks to the condition of children's lives that she was trying to help. So it wasn't necessarily that her own 11th house was completely messed up, but it was importing this difficulty, this challenge from the area of children into the social change work or nonprofit work.
- [246:30]
B
Yeah. And it was really extreme cases of, like, poverty or malnourishment and stuff like that with, like, Saturn conjunct Pluto in terms of the people she was trying to help.
- [246:40]
A
Yeah. I mean, Saturn and Pluto together, especially so closely can be literal, like, you know, dire survival needs, which is what she was speaking about.
- [246:49]
B
Yeah, for sure. All right, so that's one example. The next example is Fred Rogers, who we've talked about previously in the series, but he had Taurus rise in virgo is the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler of the fifth house is Mercury, which is up in the 11th House of Friends and groups, along with a whole stellium of planets in the 11th House, such as Venus, the moon and the sun. And he was famously the head of this children's show called Mr. Rogers Neighborhood where he especially emphasized themes of friendship and creating this personal relationship with the viewer, with his child audience of being their friend.
- [247:35]
A
And there was this one notable instance in 1969 where he famously testified before Congress to secure funding for pbs. Unfortunately, another relevant thing today. It is regarded as one of the most emotionally compelling congressional testimonies in U.S. history. And he's considered responsible for securing PBS funding for years to come because the Nixon administration had planned to cut funding by half. But then he secured more than what they already had. I know you were talking about this one with regard to the place of the ruler of the fifth of children in the 11th house. The place of advocacy or lifting up of cause causes.
- [248:20]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Especially just speaking to organizations and groups in this instance that are trying to help children or help educate children or other things like that.
- [248:31]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [248:33]
B
Yeah. So this example was actually sent in by Lindsay and Lindsay was the one that did the write up on this. So I wanted to give a shout out to her. And one of the things she pointed out that the show began just weeks before Fred Rogers 40th birthday, which then activates his fifth house according to annual profections.
- [248:52]
A
Nice. Yeah, that's great.
- [248:54]
B
Yeah. Isn't that impressive?
- [248:55]
A
It is. I love the timing.
- [248:58]
B
All right, so that was a good one. The next one we found, I came across this one, Stevie Nicks, and I didn't understand it at first and then you actually explained the significance and how that made sense to me. And then I had to look it up and research more. So this is the birth chart of Stevie Nicholas, who was a famous musician who was born with Aries Rising and aquarius on the 11th whole sign house. So that Saturn is ruling the 10th house of career as well as the 11th house of friends and groups. And it's placed in the fifth house in Leo conjunct Pluto, in this instance the fifth house of creativity, but also romance and sex and things like that. And. And you pointed out that she famously had an affair with one of the other people in her band and that this created a bunch of tensions in the group amongst her friends and co workers.
- [249:57]
A
Right. They still had to play all these concerts together and sometimes playing pointed songs that were pointing to the issue. So her affair with McFleetwood was a significant and tumultuous event in the history of their band. It contributed to a lot of internal drama. And the relationship occurred around 1977 during the band's tour for the very successful album Rumors. So it was like this band was just like all these different ex lovers who were still having to create and perform together. Just really great. Fifth house house ruler in. Or, sorry, is it the fifth and the 11th?
- [250:39]
B
It's the ruler of the 11th.
- [250:40]
A
It's the 11th and the fifth. Yeah, it's the 11th and the fifth. And yeah, just either or that connection of, like, it's a musical group, so it's a group making music. Ruler of the 11th and the 5th, but it's the Saturn Pluto again, so it brings up kind of murky stuff. And there's just a lot of funny references to, like, how they were still playing songs that were about betrayal and deceit, but playing them together.
- [251:07]
B
Right. Yeah. So she later ended up writing at least three songs about the affair, and some of them became really popular songs that they would then play as part of their rotation as part of the band. So it's kind of interesting in terms of that and just the connection with the 11th house, ruler of the 11th house in the 5th. And then she also was just an example in and of itself of the ruler of the tenth house in the fifth as well, because she's such a prominent and successful musician, both with the band she was in, which is the 11th house, but then also as a solo artist. And what I thought was amazing about that is that she was the first woman to have been inducted twice into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, where she was inducted first as a member of Fleetwood Mac in 1998, and then later in 2019. She was inducted as a solo artist in 2019. So it's like you get the ruler of the 11th House of Friends and groups and her band, in some sense, in the fifth house and being inducted there first, but then also with the ruler of the 10th and the fifth, like, being inducted solo as well.
- [252:24]
A
Nice.
- [252:25]
B
Yeah, yeah. So the only other thing I found in researching her biography is on Wikipedia. It has this little piece on children where it says, nixis said that she consciously chose not to have children of her own due to her demanding career and desire to follow her art wherever it should take her. And then has a quote from her that says, my mission maybe wasn't to be a mom and a wife. Maybe my particular mission was to write songs and make moms and wives feel better. And then elsewhere, it says of her niece, godchildren, former stepson and extended Family, she says, I have lots of kids. It's much more fun to be the crazy auntie than it is to be the mom, anyway. And I just thought that was just perfect because we're looking at a chart with Saturn in the fifth house in a night chart, and she chooses not to have children so that she can especially. Especially follow her career as a musician and as a creative person, with Saturn ruling the 10th house.
- [253:21]
A
Right, for sure. And she was born in the 1940s, so that's much more of an outlier to deliberately choose not to have children than it is today.
- [253:31]
B
Right, for sure.
- [253:32]
A
Yeah.
- [253:33]
B
Yeah. So I thought that was a good one. All right, so moving on to our next example is Martha Graham, right?
- [253:40]
A
Mm. So Martha Graham was an American modern dancer, teacher and choreographer, whose style, the Graham technique reshaped the dance world. And her chart, she has Gemini rising and Libra is her fifth house. And Saturn is placed exalted in Libra in the fifth house. And that's ruled by Venus in aries in the 11th House. So we've got Saturn in the 5th and the ruler of the 5th in the 11th. And so one of the things she's known for is she's widely regarded as the first. The technique was widely regarded as the first codified modern dance technique, which was very like Saturn in the fifth. And one of the really funny things about it is one of its main principles is a focus on contraction and release, which as soon as I read that, I was like, that is very Saturn in the fifth, but a very constructively dignified Saturn anyway, because one of the principles, of course, of Saturn is contraction. But the interesting thing to me about the 5th and 11th connection here is her dance company that she founded in 1926 is the oldest dance company in the United States, and it's the oldest continually performing contemporary dance company in the world. And so she was really known for bringing this creativity and channeling it through a group. She also had a school with the ruler of the ninth in the fifth, which is the Saturn. But she's also well known for this company, which is like a dance group. And the other funny thing I thought about it when I was reading her biography is the first group piece that she created was called Heretic. It was centered on the theme of rejection, one that would reoccur in other of her works down the line. And I thought that was both really illustrative of both. Saturn as a basic principle in the fifth house of rejection, but also of Venus in Aries, which is the group piece, because that was her first group piece that she made. And. And Venus in Aries is in the sign opposite of its rulership. So it's very literally in exile.
- [256:03]
B
Yeah, absolutely. That's great.
- [256:05]
A
Yeah. Cool.
- [256:07]
B
All right, let's keep it moving. So the next example that I found of the ruler of the 5th and the 11th is Dr. Drew Pinsky, who was born with cancer rising. And Scorpio is the fifth whole sign house house, and it's ruled by Mars, which is located in taurus in the 11th house with the moon. And what I found funny about this, Mars is actually also ruling the 10th House of Career. And the degree of the midheaven is Dr. Drew did a call in show. He was a doctor and a board certified addiction medicine specialist, and he did a call in show called Loveliness, where people would call in the 1990s in a radio show and ask about sex and love and relationship problems and all sorts of other fifth house things. And he was doing this initially as a small thing, but then he ended up being partnered up with Adam Carolla, and the two of them started working together and became friends and ended up developing a lifelong friendship. And it was when the two of them sort of got together and started acting together, especially since Adam had a background in comedy, that it became this phenomenon in the 1990s where their radio show became really popular. And then eventually they got an MTV version of the show that they did on video and ended up becoming lifelong friends and stuff. But I was fascinated by that, just because it was through that connection with this other guy that became his friend that Drew ended up finding his life's work in some ways with the ruler of the fifth house of sex and sexuality in the fifth house of Friends and Groups, and that seeming to be in the 11th House of Friends and groups, and that seeming to be part of what that placement's about.
- [258:01]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's a great example. And to reinforce it further is Ascendant ruler. Did you already say this is as senate ruler is in the the 11th and it's applying to conjoin that ruler of the 5th and the 11th.
- [258:13]
B
Right? Yeah. And his senate ruler is exalted.
- [258:17]
A
Yeah, yeah. Sorry for repeating. Yeah. So really great fifth house expression through friends.
- [258:25]
B
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's see. So moving on. Another more recent example of a famous YouTuber that came up in my files. This is the. The birth chart of Colleen Ballinger, who's born with Capricorn rising and Venus. Taurus is on the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler Is Venus, which is in the 11th house in Scorpio, retrograde and conjunct Pluto, Mercury in the sun. And she was a famous YouTuber because Venus is not just ruling the fifth house, but also the tenth house of career, where she did like comedy, especially for kids and for a younger audience, and that's her primary thing. But then there was a controversy a few years ago where it was like she'd become friends with some of these younger people who are fans of hers and who are in her audience. And then there ended up being some accusations of her being too open and talking too openly, sometimes about edgy stuff or sometimes even about who people were dating, or possibly about sex and sexuality and things like that that were pushing the boundaries of what was appropriate, especially with her being a woman in her 20s or 30s who was talking to younger kids or to teenagers and stuff like that. She famously did an apology video with a ukulele, singing it as a song. And it was a weird, weird response to the entire controversy. And I don't know all the details and didn't go through all of the full details of everything. So I don't really have a strong opinion about where it came out in the end. But I think the core of it that I was just fascinated by was just that it was clear that she was being. And I think even she acknowledged at one point that she was being overly friendly in treating some of her younger audience as friends, even though there was a very large age disparity, and that at an earlier point in her career, she realized that she should have had better boundaries in terms of that. So regardless of whether there was worse stuff going on or not, it was interesting that that became at least the main source of difficulty that she acknowledged and that she would do differently later on or what happened. Have you.
- [260:56]
A
Yeah, that's very literal.
- [260:58]
B
Yeah. Yeah. All right, moving on. The last one I wanted for the 11th house is Salvador Dali, who was a famous artist in the 20th century, was born with cancer rising. And Scorpio is the fifth whole sign house, and it's ruled by Mars, which is in taurus in the 11th house, along with Mercury, the sun, and Venus. So it's a whole stellium in the 11th House, but Mars is ruling the 5th House of Creativity, the 10th House of Career, and it's in the 11th House of Friends and groups. And Dali was famously part of this entire art, music or art scene, where he was part of the Paris Surrealist group group. And I meant to say that this example was actually submitted by orla So I wanted to give a shout out to her for finding this one and pointing this out. And one of the things that was said was that the core collective of surrealist artists and intellectuals was based in Paris during the 1920s and 30s. And there's an entire group of different people, but Dali was, like, a key figure as part of this movement or this collective of different artists. Artists.
- [262:20]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That's really great. Yeah. He became one of the movement's leading exponents, developing iconic works such as the Persistence of Memory. And he collaborated with other surrealists, though eventually his eccentric behavior eventually led to his expulsion in 1942 from the group.
- [262:41]
B
Nice. So that kind of ties in with the 11th House component we're talking about, like, Mars in a. A day chart. And sometimes that can bring themes of severing and separating. And he literally was expelled from the group or severed from the group.
- [262:58]
A
Right, yeah, for sure. I had looked up. Similarly, I had tried to look up members of the Algonquin Roundtable, which was like a creative group of artists and writers and literary creators, critics in the 1920s. And if anyone can find time charts for some of those, I bet they would be great 5th and 11th examples, but I just could not, which was very frustrating. It just seemed like a really interesting creative group. Some of them eventually founded the New Yorker magazine.
- [263:31]
B
Okay, nice.
- [263:32]
A
But it seems similar to that artist group, too.
- [263:36]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Artists, collectives, and people that work together for a shared purpose or through shared ideas. Feels. Yeah, yeah. All right. I think that's good for the 11th house. So why don't we transition into talking about the final house, which is the 12th house?
- [263:53]
A
That sounds good.
- [263:55]
B
Let's pull up our first example. All right, so our first example is the birth chart of Joe Biden. In his chart, he has Sagittarius rising, and Aries is the fifth whole sign house house, and it's ruled by Mars. So Mars is the ruler of the fifth house of children, and it's in the twelfth house in Scorpio. The twelfth house can be associated with loss. So Mars is in Scorpio in a day chart. So it's contrary to the sect, and it's co present with Mercury and the sun and Venus. And famously, in his late 20s, he became a politician and he got elected to office. But then a few weeks after he was elected to office, before he was even sworn in, his wife and his children were involved in this terrible car accident, and his wife ended up dying in the car accident, as well as one of his children died. And then Another was seriously injured in the accident as well, while.
- [265:03]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it's something that is like a significant public part of his life story at this point.
- [265:11]
B
Right, yeah. And then it's like, sadly, even, you know, when he got older, his son, Beau Biden, who ended up having a long and successful career and was in the military, ended up getting cancer, and he passed away of cancer later on as an adult. So then later, Biden experienced the loss of children through a chronic illness, through cancer. And then more recently and more famously, his other son has struggled with issues surrounding addiction and drug use and things like that.
- [265:51]
A
Right. And this is really not just the ruler of the 5th and the 12th, but it's Mars in a day chart, being the ruler of the 5th and the 12th. And that's why there's such significant struggles and losses.
- [266:04]
B
Yeah, exactly. So just some challenging stuff coming up in the context of children with the ruler of the fifth house in the 12th house.
- [266:13]
A
Right.
- [266:14]
B
All right. So speaking of that, the next chart example is the birth chart of Queen Catherine de Medici. So this is one of our oldest time charts that I have from way back then. Because one of the interesting things with royalty is they really did record the birth times of royals when they were born, going pretty far back. And she was born in April of 1519. And she has Taurus rising. Virgo is the fifth whole sign house. And the ruler of the fifth house of children is Mercury, which is in aries, in the 12th whole sign house.
- [266:54]
A
Yeah. And she experienced significant loss with her children. So out of 10 children, only seven survived to adulthood. And then additionally, three of her sons did become kings of France, but they all faced challenges and met tragic ends. So Francis, too, became king at 15 years old, but died within a year due to an ear infection. Charles IX ascended the throne at age 10, heavily influenced by his mother. He died at 23 from tuberculosis. And then finally, Henry III became king at age 22, but struggled with political turmoil and was assassinated at age 37. So that's quite a bit of loss there.
- [267:39]
B
Yeah, a lot of loss and hardship. And she also lost several other children, infancy or early childhood. So a lot of these losses. The core thing that I was really understanding about this. Cause I was watching a TV series about her, and that was one of the reasons why I was really getting into her life story. But I can't remember the name right now offhand, but it's actually really good. I watched the first season, but I haven't watched the second yet. But all of these losses caused her immense Grief and ended up influencing some of her subsequent actions and decisions when she acted as queen and regent. In terms of that.
- [268:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and again, I want to point out, just like with the fifth and eighth house examples, you know, if you have the ruler of the 5th and the 12th, you're not necessarily going to lose your children to untimely death. It's interesting looking at that ruler of the fifth is Mercury in Aries, but then the ruler of that is Mars in a day chart, closely applying to oppose Saturn. So she really had some reinforcing things here, making that difficult.
- [268:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's like Mars is ruled by that, Mercury is ruled by that. Mars, which is kind of the second day chart. Saturn's up there in Capricorn, overcoming Mercury through a superior square. And even Pluto is making a degree based square within less than a degree, less than half a degree to Mercury from 7 Pluto to 7 Aries. So there's just a bunch of stuff going on there that's tricky with that ruler of the fifth house.
- [269:15]
A
Right, right. Yeah.
- [269:17]
B
Yeah. All right, so moving on. A more recent example that was more positive, showing a more positive manifestation of the 12th house when it's connected with children, is I found this example, and this is the birth chart of Howie Mandel, who is a famous comedian. And he has Capricorn rising and the fifth house is Taurus with the IC there. And it's ruled by Venus, which is in the 12th house. And one of the things that's really fascinating about his recent biography is during the COVID pandemic. So Howie Mandel is like a comedian and moves in those circles and has done other things, including like a television show earlier in his life, like he was known for when I was growing up, like Bobby's World, with Venus also ruling the 10th House of Career. But one of the things I found fascinating with the ruler of the fifth house of children in the 12th house is when the COVID lockdowns happened, he ended up starting a podcast with his daughter. So he has an adult daughter, and they started a podcast together. And they're still doing it to this day. But it started within the context of. Of the lockdowns and being stuck in isolation during the course of this deadly pandemic and disease that was going around that was killing so many people that they ended up doing that. So I thought it was actually a really interesting, in this instance, more positive or constructive manifestation of the ruler of the 5th and the 12th of doing something positive despite the negative or challenging circumstances.
- [270:53]
A
Yeah, definitely. And that's nicely a benefic ruling. The 5th and the 12th in this case. Right. So that makes a big difference.
- [271:00]
B
Yeah. And overcoming it through a superior square. Actually, technically, Venus is applying to an out of sign trine with that Jupiter. So it's actually bonifying it and protecting it even more.
- [271:12]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's quite positive. Yeah. And there was something else where said he created the podcast with his daughter as a way to connect and cope with their mental health struggles during that time. Time and mental health frequently falls in the 12th house as one of the topics, but in this case, it's like a positive thing. So it's like doing something to help improve that situation.
- [271:35]
B
Right, right.
- [271:37]
A
Yeah. And then I had looked him up a while ago after you'd first mentioned him, and in Wikipedia it said that he first came to prominence acting in a famous hospital drama, which I thought was just a hilarious additional layer of the ruler of the fifth house of creative work and acting in the 12th house. And hospitals definitely are assigned to the 12th house.
- [271:57]
B
Right. That's brilliant.
- [271:59]
A
Yeah.
- [271:59]
B
Nice, nice.
- [272:00]
A
It's really one of the best things about being a creative person, I think. And we'll see this in another example where even if you have placements that should be in difficult houses or something, if you just embody that through an acting role, it can actually take the significance. It can take the manifestation.
- [272:21]
B
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We've seen a lot of that of actors and creatives using their creative output and then creating things that are dark or negative or what have you. And that being a way of. What's the word? Transmuting that energy into something positive.
- [272:41]
A
Positive, right. Or this is like acting like you're in a hospital instead of actually being sent to the hospital yourself.
- [272:50]
B
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. All right. So that was my positive example. So the next one is the birth chart of Jodie Foster, who was born with Sagittarius rising. And Aries is the fifth whole sign house, the place of sex and sexuality. And she has Mars ruling the fifth house. And it's also the ruler of the 12th house and it's placed in the ninth house. And I was looking at this when it came up when I was researching the houses, and I had no idea how that worked out. The only part that I did know was that she was famously very private about her sexual orientation. And it was speculated that she was gay for a number of years, but she didn't confirm it for a very long time. Time. But one of the things that came up for her, she actually finally came out publicly in 2013. But one of the things I was realizing about her with it in the ninth house is I was like, why is it in the ninth house? And I realized later it was probably not just due to privacy, but it was probably actually partially due to issues with other people's beliefs and concerns over what other people believed impacting her decision to be more private. But also, I realized at one point that one of the connections as well, with Mars in the ninth whole sign house in a day chart is she became famous as a young actress, but she famously decided to stop her acting career, even though it was on a roll, and to go to college in order to go to college and get an education. But what sucked is that she started being stalked while she was at college by this crazy guy named John Hinckley Jr. And he started sending her notes at college and other things, and she ended up ignoring and rebuffing him. So then he decided to attempted to kill Reagan, basically in order to impress her. And this incident ended up interfering with and impacting negatively her entire college career. And she almost left college completely, but then eventually decided to go back and complete it. But that's part of the delineation, I think, of what's going on here. It's like the ruler of what otherwise is, like romance, but it's also the ruler of the 12th House of Enemies. And it's in the 9th House of. Of education. And she had this really bad, singular experience of essentially like a stalker and somebody doing unwanted romantic advances while she was in college.
- [275:44]
A
Wow. That's a very vivid and a very unique example. Thankfully, that doesn't happen most of the time.
- [275:51]
B
Yeah. Although, I mean, part of the reason I was able to recognize it where I hadn't previously, even though I've used her chart in the past, is that I was doing little readings on TikTok, and I had somebody who said that they had a notably negative college experience. And I saw that he had Saturn in the ninth house in a night chart. And he described this particularly bad series of unfortunate incidences that just happened to happen while he was in college. And that was one of the reasons why I realized later what was going on in Jodie Foster's case.
- [276:26]
A
Case, yeah, for sure. I've seen the malefic contrary dissect interruling the ninth as, like, interruption of college. For sure.
- [276:34]
B
Yeah. The education. And sometimes it's cut off permanently, so they don't finish. But in her case, I'm pretty sure she went back and graduated.
- [276:43]
A
Good.
- [276:45]
B
Yeah. All right, moving on. 12th House example that we already talked about, but this is Frida Kahlo again, just to mention in passing again briefly, who was born with, with Leo rising, Sagittarius, fifth house ruled by Jupiter, which is exalted in the 12th house. And she famously dealt with some major health issues and injuries, but created a lot of beautiful art that has become very well known around the world that often featured some of her struggles and pains and 12th house feelings of isolation and other things like that.
- [277:23]
A
Yeah, definitely. Sometimes, pretty often when you have the benefic of sect, like in a difficult house like this exalted Jupiter in a day chart in the 12th House, I mean, sometimes you get the best manifestation of those house topics and at other times there are still those more challenging circumstances that happen, but then you are able to make something really positive come out of it. Like in her case.
- [277:49]
B
Right? Yeah, absolutely. And she also, with the ruler of the 5th and the 12th, some of her art actually featured that she channeled some of her profound grief over miscarriages and infertility into her art in a number of different paintings and works. And the paintings kind of depicted her physical and emotional pain, the loss of her unborn children and her inability to carry a pregnancy he to term due to the injuries she had from that bus accident and some of the subsequent surgeries later on.
- [278:23]
A
In addition to just her struggles with her body feeling broken with her ascendant ruler there applying to the ruler of the fifth.
- [278:30]
B
Right, right, yeah, yeah. And then of course with the ruler of the 12th and the 10th house, as we talked about, she's now one of the most famous artists in the world, but it was often through expressing that 12th house house loss and challenges in many ways.
- [278:48]
A
Right? Yeah, definitely.
- [278:51]
B
All right, all right, so moving on, the next chart was Eleanor Roosevelt, who was born with Sagittarius rising. Aries is on the fifth whole sign house and it's ruled by Mars, which is in Scorpio in the 12th. And on the one hand there were some issues with her husband, who's President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and his infidelities, which ended up impacting their marriage in a negative way with the ruler of the 5th and the 12th. But then also later on in life, she herself ended up pursuing other relationships on her own, including some same sex relationships that had to be kept secret and had to be kept away from the public.
- [279:36]
A
Yeah, her most significant romantic relationship, aside from her husband, was her long term affair with journalist Lorena Alle Hickok. And yeah, it definitely had to be kept secret. But they were close for a while. I did their relationship, or Eleanor Roosevelt's relationship timing in one of my relationship timing lectures that hopefully at some point will get back on my website. And, yeah, she was with her for a while, and she also was pretty rumored. At least she had a very close relationship with her bodyguard, Earl Miller. There's sort of speculative things and sort of, like, mixed messages as far as how far that went. But, yeah, she certainly had some romantic liaisons that were not public.
- [280:25]
B
Right. Yeah. So the 12th house. And I think I've understood more and more over the past few years why that is for the 12th house. And I think part of it is that in the 12th house, it's like when the sun rises in the morning, the other stars and planets that you can see start to disappear into the sky, when the sky shifts from night to day. And so there's this element of things like moving into obscurity or going behind the scenes that happens with the 12th house, which I think is part of the symbolism with that. Although there's probably a few other ways you could approach it as well.
- [281:02]
A
Well, yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense.
- [281:06]
B
Yeah. All right, so moving on. There's a similar one. This is the birth chart of Arnold Schwarzenegger, who we've talked about already earlier, where he has cancer rising. He has Jupiter in Scorpio in the fifth whole sign House. And the ruler of the fifth house of children is in the twelfth house, which is Mars in Gemini, conjunct Uranus in Gemini, as well as the North Node, which is earlier in the sign. And the main thing with him was just the scandal that happened that came out at one point after he left the governorship, where it turned out that he had had an affair with a maid that worked for his family for a number of years, and then she ended up having children, having a child, so that he ended up having a secret love child that for years that his family didn't know about, even though the child was kind of raised around them. And then later on, it came out at some point in time and became public knowledge to his family, which led to the divorce from his wife, Maria Shriver, and other things like that.
- [282:18]
A
Right. Yeah. Especially when it first came out, it was like a very notable Ruler v and the 12th because. Because it wasn't like an infant or a toddler that had been discovered. It was like a child who was much older, a teenager, I think, at the time.
- [282:33]
B
Right.
- [282:35]
A
Also, interestingly, just as an aside, he also has the ruler of the sixth in the fifth house, which is an inversion of Maria Shriver's ruler of the fifth. In the sixth conjunct Neptune. So there's like a connection here between employees and the fifth house.
- [282:51]
B
Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, good point. So again, though, just reiterating some of those themes sometimes of something being hidden or obscured when it's in the 12th house.
- [283:04]
A
Exactly.
- [283:07]
B
All right, so the other one along those lines was the last one. Last example I'll do of that. We'll move on. Was Tiger woods, who we've talked about earlier, who. Who has Virgo rising. And Capricorn is the fifth whole sign house. And it's ruled by Saturn, which is in the 12th house. And he was the number one golf player in the world for a period of time. But then his wife in the tabloids. One day it broke in the tabloids that his wife and him got in this huge fight. And then it turned out that he had had a number of affairs and it all came out all of a sudden. And for a period of time, it led to a lot of major disarray in terms of his life and his professional career that he kind of got knocked off the top for a period of time on, and then he ended up having to rebuild from there.
- [283:58]
A
Right. It's interesting that his ascendant ruler in the fifth is applying out of sign, but fairly closely to the opposition with that Saturn in the 12th.
- [284:07]
B
Yeah, it's got two things going on there because on one hand, it's actually being bonafide by Venus, which is at 28 degrees of Scorpio, overcoming Mercury and helping to affirm its significations as the ruler of the Ascendant and ruler of the 10th. And he became just like the number one golf player in the world for a period of time with the ruler of the Ascendant and ruler of 10th in the 5th House of Sports and games. But then, yeah, there was also some major challenges that he ran into as well.
- [284:39]
A
Well, right, yeah.
- [284:42]
B
All right, so that's good. The next example is one that I first found when I was researching the second house episode, which is the birth chart of King Farouk of Egypt, who was born with Libra Rising. And I talked about him in the second house episode because he famously had these huge collections of lots of different, different things. And it was of possessions, and it was something about the moon being in Scorpio in the second house and just gathering tons and tons of things. But the important point with him is that he ends up functionally being the Last king of Egypt, because he ended up being deposed in a military coup. And, and what's interesting is that in the military coup, they deposed Farouk as king, but then they installed his son as the king. But his son was just like an infant at that point. So Farouk was born with Libra rising and the sun and Mercury in Aquarius in the fifth house. And one of the things that was famous about him is that he loved to party and he loved, love to do just all these extravagant things, especially like food and drink and eating and other things like that, but also just enjoying luxuries and all sorts of things. But ultimately it was some of his partying and some of his extravagance that led to his downfall. With Saturn ruling the fifth house as well as the fourth house and then being placed in the 12th house house in a night chart as the most difficult planet. And he ended up being deposed in a military coup and then sent into exile. So I also used him for the ruler of the fourth house of home and living situation, the 12th, because he was literally sent into exile in a foreign country and his son was made king, but his son was just an infant. And so this was really just a formality. But technically his son became the last king of Egypt. But then after a few years, the military dictatorship basically just overthrew the sun as well. So that the sun technically became the last king of Egypt. Yeah, so that's the ruler of the 5th and the 12th.
- [287:09]
A
Right. And it's interesting, you know, there were like a few examples we had earlier of the ruler of the 5th and the 12th where there were like losses of children through, you know, no fault of the person's own. But then some of the last few, at least one component of them it seems like, has been illustrating the ruler of the 5th moving towards the 12th house. Signification of self undoing. Like they're having some self undoing things going on via the fifth house activities.
- [287:38]
B
Right? Yeah, because it goes back to what I was talking about in the last episode, that principle of counteraction, where you can have a planet that's really well being placed in a chart. But according to some ancient authors, like Antiochus of Athens from the first or second century, if you have a really well placed planet, but it's ruled by a malefic that's really poorly placed, then things will go well at first, but then later the rug will be pulled out from under you. And this is one of those instances, right? Yeah, so I thought that was a good example. Example. All right, so Moving on to our next example is the birth chart of Bobby Fischer, who was a famous world chess champion for a period of time in the mid 20th century. And he was born with Leo rising. And Sagittarius is the fifth whole sign house, the place of games, which we've seen prominent in the charts of other famous chess players and sports champions. In the last episode, like who's his name? I'm blanking out on the other chess champion from the 1980s and 1990s, Kat Kasparov. Yeah, Garry Kasparov, who had the ruler of the ascendant in the fifth house. But what's interesting about Fischer is he had the ruler of the fifth house in the 12th house, but it's this exalted Jupiter in a day chart. And what's interesting is the 12th house is traditionally the house of enemies. It's where you find enemies and people that you don't get along with in life. But he has the ruler of the 5th House of Games exalted there. And what this made me think of and realize is that Bobby Fischer was playing chess in the mid 20th century, during the height of the Cold War, when the US and Russia were like these arch mortal enemies, basically. And there was this whole drama between the US and Russia that was playing out in international politics on a number of different levels during the height of the Cold War. But one of the areas where it played out in a really weird way was through chess and through chess competitions, where even there, the two countries were sometimes putting a lot of money or a lot of emphasis into having the best chess player in the world and having their chess player beat the leading chess players from the. The other country. And this is part of what I think is going on here in Bobby Fischer's chart, because he has the ruler of the 5th House of Games and Chess in the 12th House of Enemies. But it's exalted. And some of the delineations in Rhetorius of Egypt and some of the ancient astrologers about when a planet's well placed in the 12th is one who overcomes their enemies. And Bobby Fischer, for a period of time, was the world chess champion. Who won was sort of like unbeatable or who was beating a lot of the people he was playing against.
- [290:33]
A
Right, for sure. Yeah. That's definitely how this is playing out. It's kind of like the best case scenario for a house ruler in the 12th House. This Jupiter situation, it's not just exalted, it's a day chart. It's stationary. And it's even square by degree, the midheaven, you know, within three degrees, it's like about less than a degree off. So all of those things are super mitigating factors. And so yeah, the topic of enemies comes up, but he's victorious over them. And it's like a positive situation overall. It's interesting also you were talking about the sort of national enemy piece and Mars is the malefic contradistect. It's ruling the 9th House of Foreign places. And it's actually placed right on the descendant of. So it's an interesting interplay there with Jupiter making a square to the midheaven, but that ruler, the ninth being on the descendant of open opponents, both of those are actually. You have the opponents in the seventh house and the enemies in the 12th. But he has just a really best case scenario placement. So he's being very successful in that environment.
- [291:42]
B
Right? Yeah. And there was something later in life where he wasn't officially exiled, but he went into this period of self imposed exile for decades after 1975 and was later effectively exiled by the US government after he violated a UN sanction by playing a rematch in Yugoslavia in 1992 against an opponent that he wasn't supposed to. And I forgot about that. I'm just now remembering some of that in terms of. It was to play a rematch against Boris Spassky, who was one of his rivals basically. And he violated some rules about international travel and sanctions and things like that in order to go play this match.
- [292:32]
A
Okay. There was one incident I found as well where he. Maybe that was the same match. He played some match from another country, but he didn't actually travel there. There was some issue with him traveling there. And I just thought it was such a funny ruler of the 5th and the 12th where he's like, no, I'll still play. And then they just played from a great, great distance, essentially in isolation from each other. Other.
- [293:03]
B
Yeah. That's amazing.
- [293:05]
A
Yeah.
- [293:07]
B
Nice. All right. Okay, so just a few more examples. So one of them I found. I was gonna put it in another section, but I decided to put it here because it's primarily a 12th house example. But this is the chart of Pamela Anderson. And she was coming up in the news again recently for acting like a couple of two major acting roles that she did over the past year. But it reminded me that there was this major incident, incident in her life that's in her biography really prominently, where she was born with Gemini rising and Mars is in Libra in the fifth whole sign House. And the fifth house is ruled by Venus, which is also ruling the 12th House of Enemies. And it's placed in Leo in the third house, conjunct the ic. And one of the things that happened famously in the 1990s is that she got married to this famous rock star, and they got married and went off and had a honeymoon. But somebody broke into their home and stole these sex tapes that they had made and then sold it to somebody. And then it became widely sold on the Internet back in the 1990s. And it was one of the first celebrity sex tapes. But it was this very private and intimate moment that was stolen by somebody. Like an intruder broke into her house and then put out there. And it's something about that combination, I'm realizing, of the fifth house of sex and sexuality, the ninth house of enemies, as well as secrets.
- [294:40]
A
The twelfth house.
- [294:41]
B
The twelfth house. And then Venus being conjunct the degree of the ic and her home and living situation being kind of broken into or violated.
- [294:50]
A
Definitely, yeah. And I'm trying to remember what you said about the aftermath of what was the result for her of that getting leaked.
- [295:02]
B
I mean, she was just not stoked about it at all. And she was gonna sue the company that was selling it on the Internet, but she was pregnant at the time, so she didn't pursue it further out of fear of it causing an issue with her pregnancy. So that was part of it. And there was a whole separate thing. We had talked about, for example, or a parallel with Hugh Hefner, because we had talked about how Hugh Hefner had the ruler of the fifth house, sex and sexuality, in the third house of communication, and became famous through Playboy. And she has a similar placement where she has Venus ruling the fifth house and it's in the third house of communication. And she originally kind of rose to prominence after being selected in the February 1990 issue of Playboy as the Playboy Playmate of the Month. And then she went on to obtain the record for the most Playboy cover appearances after that point. So there's an interesting parallel there with Hugh Hefner's chart.
- [296:08]
A
Yeah, that's the part I was trying to remember because I knew there was, you know, Venus is her benefic of sect ruling the fifth and in the third. So, yeah, that's where it came out in her story.
- [296:18]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [296:19]
A
But you can see, you know, sometimes when you get the ruler of the 12th in another house like it is in this instance, even if it's a benefic of the sect, and you still have a lot of good experiences with that planet. It does import those 12th house things, at least. Least at a certain point in life.
- [296:36]
B
Yeah. Sometimes there can be something tricky that comes up.
- [296:41]
A
Yeah.
- [296:42]
B
Yeah. All right, moving on to Laverne Cox, I think. Yeah. So this is one of your examples. Here's the chart.
- [296:53]
A
Yeah. So Laverne Cox has Leo rising. Sagittarius is the fifth house house. The moon is in Sagittarius in the fifth, and it's ruling the 12th house. And Venus and Mars are also in the 12th house. So Laverne Cox is an actress who became more well known with her role as Sophia Burset on the Netflix series Orange is the New Black, becoming the first transgender person to be nominated for a Primetime Emmy award in an acting category. And this is just really pulling out one piece of her career and biography. But that show is famously set in a prison, and it was, like, a very successful show for, you know, for a while. And again, like I was talking about earlier, I love that actors can, you know, can embody the roles that take some of the significance from, you know, from a placement that could other otherwise indicate something more difficult. That's not to say that there wasn't difficulty in her life in a fifth House manner in other ways, but I just love that that was a success story from her playing someone imprisoned, which was a 12th house thing.
- [298:08]
B
Yeah. And prison is, like, traditionally, the 12th house is associated with prisons as one of the very literal manifestations of it.
- [298:16]
A
Yes.
- [298:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. So that's really good. With the ruler of the 12th house in the fifth.
- [298:24]
A
Fifth.
- [298:25]
B
And the ruler of the 10th house in the 12th.
- [298:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. So there's, like, something positive that's coming through an acting role that involves a twelfth house. Literal topic of prisons.
- [298:37]
B
Right, yeah, yeah. That was a huge show at the time. It was, like, a sensation, especially the first few seasons.
- [298:44]
A
Mm. Yeah.
- [298:46]
B
All right, let's move on. So one of our last examples, the birth time was actually just released in the past few weeks when the birth certificate was published. But this is evidently what we think is the time birth chart for Jeffrey Epstein. And he was born with Capricorn rising. And the 12th house is Sagittarius, and it's ruled by Jupiter, which is placed in the fifth house of sex and sexuality, but also of children and younger people. And. And Jeffrey Epstein was famously arrested and went to jail in 2019 for sex trafficking minors, and then ended up dying in prison. So there's, like, a connection here where on the broadest sense, it's like he went to jail for Sex related crimes with the ruler of the 12th House of Prison in the 5th House of Sex and sexuality. But then there's also this other element with the fifth house and the fact that it was also specifically tied in with minors in general.
- [299:53]
A
Yeah, definitely. And this is Jupiter in a night chart. So it's more of the excess signification rather than the greater positivity in day charts. And then it's also ruling the 12th house, which in addition to prisons, can be things that you do that lead to your undoing.
- [300:11]
B
Right, yeah, yeah. So there's other things about the chart and other things going on there, but I think that's sufficient for now. Well, actually one of the things about that is he was arrested much earlier, but then he was released and given this sweetheart deal by earlier people. And then it was like he was arrested later a second time. And that's when he went to prison for it and then died in prison under mysterious circumstances. So that's also a little bit like the Jupiter going on there. He was almost lucky at not going to prison earlier than he did.
- [300:51]
A
Right, right. Yeah, that's a good point.
- [300:53]
B
Yeah. All right, so that brings us to the last example to not end on a super depressing note. I want to go back to one of the examples, examples from earlier, which is the birth chart of Gene Siskel. And I was really fascinated by this chart when I found it because like I said, he was born with Pisces rising and this Mars Saturn conjunction. I originally found it because I was looking for planetary pairs in the fifth house. And I was searching everybody that had Mars Saturn conjunctions and he had it in the fifth house of creativity. And I just thought that was such an amazing place placement for a movie critic because one of the things they're doing sometimes could be very brutally ripping apart somebody else's art. And that's one of the common sometimes criticisms of critics, sometimes from the part of artists is artists are creating something and sometimes critics are just tearing something down instead of creating something themselves. Or at least that's counterpoint that somebody who's not super happy about a bad film review might make. But one of the things that's interesting about his chart is that Saturn is ruling both the 11th House of Friends as well as the 12th House of Enemies and people that you don't get along with. And it's in the fifth house of creativity. And what I realized at a certain point in looking into his biography and his work with with Roger Ebert, who he became known for as part of the movie rating duo of Siskel and Ebert for a number of years, they became kind of like effectively the leading movie reviewers in the country is they had this interesting and complex relationship where sometimes they really did not get along and they did not like each other, and they had this component at some point where they were basically kind of like enemies that were forced to work together, but then they sort of became friends as well eventually. And they sort of alternated between sort of like friends and enemies. And I think it's fascinating how that worked out there with the same planet ruling the 11th House of Friends, as well as the 12th House of Enemies, and being placed there in the 5th House of Creativity and then expressing that through having this sort of love hate relationship with somebody he's working with for most of the rest of his life as a movie reviewer.
- [303:28]
A
Yeah, I was thinking of that term as well, the love hate with Saturn ruling both the 11th House of Good Spirit and the 12th House of Bad Spirit. And as, as we've shown in a bunch of other charts, a planet ruling two houses, sometimes bringing those topics together, and you do sometimes see a connection between the 11th and 12th with people who kind of alternate being like friends and then falling out of favor with friends at different points. So I'm glad in this case that it went back. It wasn't just in one direction, but it was more of an alternating thing.
- [304:03]
B
Yeah, exactly. So it's like. Like earlier, it's like when they were first paired together in 1975, they were from rival newspapers, and by their own admission, they initially disliked each other. And Roger Ebert wrote at one point that for the first five years they knew each other, they hardly spoke, quote, unquote, and their on air arguments and sharp disagreements were not an act. They, like, genuinely were very competitive and had a professional rivalry and just didn't like each other. But. But over the course of 24 years of working together, that dynamic slowly transformed. And their constant debate and their shared passion for film eventually forged this really unique and really profound connection where they became intensely aware of each other and knew what the other was thinking and sometimes eventually developed a shared sense of humor. And that became part of the point that I think is important. Important. The point of resolution that ties in with the fifth house as well is having this same sort of wry sense of humor to a certain extent.
- [305:07]
A
Yeah, that's funny.
- [305:09]
B
When Siskel died, Ebert wrote this heartfelt tribute to him in 1999, where he explained the sort of depth of their friendship at this point, and he dismissed the public perception of a love hate relationship and tried to clarify. And he said maybe the problem was that no one else could possibly understand how meaningless was the hate or how deep was the love. And he also recalled a pitch for a sitcom about the relationship called Best Enemies, which captured the essence of their dynamic.
- [305:43]
A
Wow, that's perfect.
- [305:45]
B
Yeah. So that's it. It's just the relationship was built on an immense mutual respect. And later, while their on screen clashes were legendary because watching some of the reviews where they didn't agree, they would get really tense. But off screen they became united, especially against common critics. And Ebert said that if they were fighting, you should get out of the room. But if they were teamed up against a common target, then they were fatal together. So that I thought was a beautiful last one to end with, where you have both going on of both the 12th House of Enemies and the 11th House of Friends. And just thinking about while the 12th is sometimes enemies in a very literal sense, sometimes it's just people you don't get along with in your life or people that you don't vibe with. But sometimes in this instance, where there's a strong shared connection there, that can change over time.
- [306:42]
A
Right. And I was just definitely thinking that piece in particular about over time. Right. With those two houses being ruled by Saturn in the fifth. So it's like over time with their shared film criticism, their relationship became more complex and multifaceted.
- [307:00]
B
Yeah. And their shared passion for judging and for critiquing creative works and for art and films and having a shared appreciation for that, as well as both of them having the ruler of the family 5th House of Creativity and the 9th House of Philosophy and things like that. And both of them having this sort of philosophical disposition to judging artwork and films.
- [307:24]
A
Definitely. Yeah. That's great.
- [307:27]
B
Yeah. So that is surprisingly my last example to round out this series on the ruler of the fifth house in astrology, as well as to bring our, our own three part series to a close here.
- [307:43]
A
Yeah, it's pretty exciting. We've done this as a whirlwind recording session. I don't think we've ever done these types of long ones so close together before. We did the first one on Thursday and then we did the second one yesterday and the third one today.
- [307:58]
B
Yeah. So we recorded the first one on Thursday, September 11, and then skipped a day and then recorded the next one on September 13th and then today's final episode on September 14th. So we were recording this in the middle of eclipse season this year where there was a Pisces eclipse that happened when like the 8th or something?
- [308:20]
A
Yeah, sometime between the 6th and the 8th. It was both the Pisces eclipse and the Uranus station. And they were just like grouped right together.
- [308:28]
B
Yeah. But we'd spent the past few weeks just intensely researching the fifth house. And I had done. Done a large chunk of the research late last year in November or December, after putting out the fourth house episode. And a lot of the research contributions from Camille Michelle Gray and Lindsay Turner and Orla were done back then. But then I got sidetracked by doing the year ahead forecast. And then life intervened and all sorts of crazy world events started happening in the early part of 2020, 25. And it wasn't until now that I felt ready to start coming back to it. So we researched this intensely and we knew it was going to be tough recording during eclipse season, but we didn't know that our place was going to flood this week shortly after that eclipse, and there would be all sorts of weird tumultuousness around it. But I think we got through it and we recorded everything that we meant to say in these episodes.
- [309:24]
A
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm happy with the array of charts that are here. I hope people find. Find a lot of good learning from them. And yeah, like we were saying before, definitely Write in the YouTube comments if you know these people's biographies and know additional reasons the significations make sense. We would love to hear those. Yeah.
- [309:46]
B
So if you notice something additional that you'd like to point out, then post it in the YouTube comment. Or if you have a good example of the fifth house or the ruler of the Ascendant in the fifth house or in this video, especially if you have a good example of the ruler of the fifth house in one of the 12 houses, definitely let us know and post it in the comments below this video on YouTube because that's the best place to pull all of the comments. And then maybe if we get enough really good ones, we could do a follow up episode or something like that for more research and more fifth House goodness. You ready to record a follow up episode? Maybe tomorrow.
- [310:22]
A
Maybe just lay low for a little bit. It's been a lot of things in a row lately. But speaking of additional charts, you were also thinking of doing a secret podcast, right? Secret Astrology podcast, potentially, yeah.
- [310:37]
B
So this episode's been released for early access to patrons because they've been supporting and funding this research. And I'm gonna probably record a bonus episode episode as part of the Secret Astrology Podcast, which is a series that's available to some Patrons of the Astrology podcast through my page on Patreon. And while we integrated actually a lot of the charts, in the end we didn't keep a lot out. There were some that we didn't end up including just because there was too much. And also I had done some research in particular on specific planetary combinations like that Mars, Saturn, conjunction with Genesis, Siskel's chart. And I found a bunch of other ones like that that I thought was kind of useful and informative. So I think I may record a follow up as part of the Secret Astrology podcast to talk about some of those other fifth house examples.
- [311:24]
A
Mm, sounds good. And there was a potential planets in house thing that you were asking during the last video whether people were interested in.
- [311:35]
B
What was that?
- [311:36]
A
Just like a particular. Particular planetary placements in the fifth house. It was the part that was cut after the first three houses.
- [311:44]
B
Okay. Yeah, I don't know. I'm spacing out right now, so I can't remember.
- [311:49]
A
Yeah, we have some in there. It's just a matter of whether it turns into something or not.
- [311:54]
B
Right. That there were some examples cut from the rulers of the houses. So yeah, I'll take some of those and throw them in another episode for patrons. So you can sign up on through a page on Patreon if you want access to that. And then also I'll move on before too long to starting to work on the sixth house research. And eventually once I record that episode, I'll release it for early access to patrons a while before it's released to the public. These three episodes, I already released one of them for early access and all of these will be released probably a week in some instances, maybe two weeks in advance. So if people would like access to that, then you can sign up through our page on Patreon. Once again, I want to shout out and thank the researchers that helped us, including Orla Camille, Michelle Gray and Lindsay Turner. And then especially thank you, Leisa, for doing this with me because you put a ton of research into this as well, and we found a lot of different charts together. We watched a bunch of movies during the course of this to help us understand and get a different perspective on some of the biographies. And then, yeah, we've been recording this intensely together. So I'm super happy to have done this with you. And I'm super happy especially that you're recovering after being really seriously struggling with illness over the past few months.
- [313:15]
A
Yeah, it's been fun doing this little research spurt and recording with you. I think we learned a Lot of good things. And yeah, I am doing this, like, about a month out, a little under a month out from cancer surgery. But thankfully, after about two, two and a half weeks, my energy came back a lot. So if anyone's surprised to see me in these intensive episodes already, that's what happened there. I was like, oh, I feel better now. I haven't started my new medication. That's part two of the treatment. But so far, so good. I'm doing pretty well.
- [313:46]
B
Good, good. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you're recovering and. And it's one of the greatest pleasures of my life to collaborate with you. So I'm really glad that we got a chance to.
- [313:56]
A
Yeah, I'm glad we got to, too. It's funny, given all of the emergencies that have happened before this time with all of my parent emergencies in particular, that it's taken, like coming out for cancer surgery to be like, okay, we have a little window. We can do research and creative things together.
- [314:11]
B
Yeah, for sure. All right, so we're going to release this. I'm also going to release the written notes, which is like an extension, probably over 100 page document with a lot of our research notes for this episode. One of the things we'll include in there is our movie list, because we watched a lot of movies connected with some of the biographies. So I'll include that in there. And otherwise, I think that's it.
- [314:33]
A
Yeah, I think that's it. I think we have reached the end of our fifth House marathon.
- [314:39]
B
Brilliant. All right, well, I hope everyone's learned a lot of stuff. I hope this research helps to influence and give people a good idea about what the fifth House means in astrology and to ground it in some actual empirical research. Cause I think that's the most important part is we started outlining some of those significations based on their tradition or conceptually, or in some instances, we were already in the first episode summarizing some of the research that we had done and the conclusions we were able to make from all of the chart research. But then it was really important to us to show the example charts and to actually show the empirical process of looking at people that have important placements with the fifth House and then letting the biography speak to us. So I hope people have learned a lot from that. Not just about the fifth House, but also the process of doing astrological research and how you can come to your own conclusions about some of these things.
- [315:34]
A
Definitely. Yeah.
- [315:36]
B
Yeah. All right, well, thanks, everyone, for watching or listening to this episode of the Astrology Podcast and we'll see you again next time. If you're a fan of the podcast and you'd like to find a way to help support my research, then consider becoming a patron through my page on patreon.com in exchange, you'll get access to subscriber benefits such as early access to new episodes, the ability to attend live recordings, the monthly Electional Astrology Podcast, an exclusive podcast series called the Secret Astrology Podcast that's only available to patrons, or you can even get your name listed in the credits. For more information, go to patreon.com astrologypodcast Special thanks to patrons on my Producers tier, including patrons Kristi Moe, Ariana Amour, Mandi Rae, Angelic Nambo Issa Sabah, Jeannie Marie Kaplan, Melissa Delano, Sunny Bazbaz, Kwatsi Alibarahu, Annie Newman, Ginger Sadlier, Berlin west, and Nikki Crawford People often ask me if I'm available for consultations, but unfortunately I'm not right now because the podcast takes up so much of my time. However, I did create a consultations page on the Astrology Podcast website that has a list of astrologers that I recommend for astrological consultations. You can find that@theastrologypodcast.com consultations the astrology software we use here on the podcast is called Solar Fire for Windows Windows, which is astrology Software for the PC, you can get a 15% discount by using the promo code AP15 at the website alabe.com for Mac users, I recommend the software Astro Gold for Mac os, which is astrology software for the Mac computer made by the creators of Solar fire. For the PC, you can get a 15% discount with the promo code Astroplate Podcast 15 through their website at AstroGold IO. If you're really looking to deepen your studies of astrology, then I would recommend signing up for my Hellenistic Astrology course, which is an online course in ancient astrology where I take people from basic concepts up through intermediate and advanced techniques for reading birth charts. There's over 100 hours of video lectures, plus monthly webinars and Q and A sessions, and then at the end of the course you get a certificate of completion saying that you studied with me. If you pass the final written test. Find out more information@theastrologyschool.com finally, shout out to our sponsor for this episode, which is the United Astrology Conference, which is happening September 3rd through the 9th, 2026 in Chicago. Find out more information at uacastrology.com/SA.