All-Perimeter Defense Team w/ Fred Katz

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily – April 9, 2026

Episode Theme:
All-Perimeter Defense Team with Fred Katz
Hosts: Dave DuFour, Zena Keita, Guest: Fred Katz

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the under-celebrated world of NBA perimeter defense. With guest Fred Katz, the team discusses Fred’s annual All-Perimeter Defense Team selections, the overlooked value of elite guard and wing defense, Derek White’s unconventional role with the Celtics, and broader conversations about defensive awards, positional recognition, and the impact of defense on the game’s outcome.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brooklyn Nets’ “Tanking” and NBA Development Culture

(03:08 – 11:11)

• Fred opens with an anecdote about his friend Wade—"the only remaining" Nets fan—and the psychological turmoil caused by the Nets winning meaningless games, possibly losing lottery positioning.
  • "Wade is having a breakdown because the Nets... might are in danger of falling to maybe fifth lottery positioning after what was supposed to be a glorious tank season." – Fred Katz (03:10)
• Discussion about the perverse incentives around tanking, where teams play or bench certain players based purely on chasing lottery odds, even at the expense of development.
  • "What a sad place for the league when we're talking about... you can't be playing Day Ron Sharp in fourth quarters. Way too good of a rebounder, which he is. That's malpractice." – Fred Katz (05:29)
• Arguments for giving prospects real NBA minutes, development over strict asset protection.

2. Jagor Gilman and Defensive Three-Second Calls

(09:13 – 10:43)

• Fred shares a quirky stat: Nets rookie guard Jagor Gilman got called for an unusual number of defensive three-second violations.
  • "Never seen a guard get called for so many defensive 3 second calls. The Nets in general just get like a ton of defensive three second calls." – Fred Katz (09:13)
• Minor talk about Gilman's potential, shooting, and passing.

3. Defining and Selecting the All-Perimeter Defense Team

(14:42 – 18:56)

• Fred details the process—watching hours of film, cutting a broad list to 10 total players (split between first and second team).
  • "I think I had 66 guys on my initial list. And then I was like, okay, I think I just named every perimeter defender in the NBA who's not a minus." – Fred Katz (15:41)
• Explains the anxiety of leaving deserving players off—Chris Dunn as the toughest final cut.
• Players like Derrick White, OG Anunoby, Scotty Barnes, and Asar Thompson were “slam dunks” for him.
• Notable quote:
  • "If you want to vote [Chris Dunn] real all defense, like, no argument, he's great." – Fred Katz (18:52)

4. The Line Between Perimeter and Interior Defense

(18:56 – 21:08)

• Zena asks criteria for who counts as a perimeter defender, especially with “big wings” like Barnes and Anunoby guarding centers at times.
  • "Versatility is something that gets you onto the team. Probably shouldn't eliminate you from the team." – Fred Katz (19:40)
• It's about primary assignments and roles, not actual listed position—big men like Wemby and Bam are excluded from perimeter voting.

5. Derrick White: “Boston’s Best Center” and an Outlier Rim Protector

(21:26 – 27:20)

• The Celtics’ scheme now treats Derick White as their “dominant defensive center.”
  • "Derrick White is their dominant defensive center." – Fred Katz (21:40)
• Dave: why isn’t White in DPOY talk, given his rim protection as a non-big?
  • "You don't get compensated for how hard your job is. You get compensated for how much of an impact you make." – Fred Katz (22:01)
• Fred compares White’s weakside/rim-protecting role to prime Giannis:
  • "He's been like the guard version of Giannis." – Fred Katz (23:13)
• Insights:
  • Boston intentionally stations White as a “rover” in the weakside corner to maximize rim help, an extreme rarity for a 6’4” player.
  • "He's going to become the second player in NBA history of his height to block 1.3 shots a game. Just the second. Dwyane Wade's the only other guy who has done this." – Fred Katz (26:14)
  • White averages almost as many blocks as fouls (1.3 vs. 1.6), elite for his position.

6. Defense as 50% of the Game? The Offense-Defense Value Gap

(27:20 – 31:14)

• Discussion triggered by Wembanyama’s public claim that “defense is 50% of the game.” Draymond Green's response agrees, but hosts debate if this matches reality in MVP and awards voting.
  • "We tend to focus on wherever the ball goes. So we tend to focus on the guy who missed what would have been the game winning shot as opposed to the guy who stopped the game winning shot." – Fred Katz (28:26)
• Defense gets undervalued in highlight culture and legacy conversation (“make or miss league” skepticism).

7. Awards Talk: Defensive Player of the Year, Clutch, and Positional Recognition

(31:14 – 38:01)

• Fred strongly advocates for a Perimeter Defender of the Year award, borrowed from how baseball added the Cy Young for pitchers.
  • "Last year [Jalen Williams] went on... and was like, all these bigs are winning. There should be a perimeter defensive player of the year. And I was like, he’s right." – Fred Katz (33:01)
  • "The league might be positionless, but it’s not roleless.” – Fred Katz (36:04)
• The hosts are deeply critical of making all-defense and all-NBA teams “positionless,” arguing it warps recognition in a sport where roles are still distinct.
  • "Positions are there so that like a novice can understand the game... And that's still how it works in the NBA, believe it or not." – Dave DuFour (35:34)
  • "The expected rim protection [from that position] might as well not be there." – Fred Katz (37:11)
• The panel argues for requiring positional balance on teams and for greater emphasis on the unique difficulty of perimeter defense.

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Notable Quotes

• On Derrick White’s Defensive Role:
  "Boston is using him... where they have intentionally pulled him off of the other team's best perimeter player... using him in that sort of weak side corner roving... Just take away that side, take away the passing lanes, come over and help, take away the rim. And he's 6 foot 4 and you're not supposed to be in that role at 6 foot 4." – Fred Katz (24:49)

• On Defensive Awards:
  "I want perimeter defender of the year... It's similar to baseball, where they realized... pitchers just weren't winning [MVP], so they created the Cy Young." – Fred Katz (32:18, 33:01)

• Basketball as “Roleless?”
  "The league might be positionless, but it's not roleless." – Fred Katz (36:04)

• On Value of Rim Protection by Guards:
  "If it's a Zubatz is a good defensive center and a massive human being and opponents are shooting 55% against him at the rim and they're shooting 55% against Derrick White at the rim... that Derrick White stat, even though it's the same number, is so much more valuable because it is coming from a place where you normally... might as well not be there." – Fred Katz (37:11)

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Important Timestamps

• [03:08] – Fred’s Nets “tanking” story; conversation on player development and incentives
• [09:13] – Jagor Gilman’s odd stat (defensive 3-second violations)
• [15:32] – Fred explains how he compiles his All-Perimeter Defense Team
• [17:29] – The Chris Dunn vs. Dyson Daniels decision
• [18:56] – Defining “perimeter defense,” Scotty Barnes/OG Anunoby eligibility
• [21:26] – Derrick White as “best center” and All-Defense linchpin
• [23:13] – The “guard version of Giannis”
• [26:14] – Unheard-of shot-blocking from a 6'4" guard
• [28:26] – Value of defensive plays and “game-winning stops”
• [31:14] – Critique of the Clutch Player of the Year award
• [32:18] – Advocacy for “Perimeter Defender of the Year” award
• [36:04] – “Positionless” NBA vs. real roles

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Memorable Moments

• Hilarious lament over the Nets’ “tanking” travails and the welfare of the single remaining fan, affectionately named “Wade.”
• Fred’s passionate and clear breakdown of why Derrick White’s defensive value is historic for a guard, likening him to “the guard version of Giannis.”
• A deep basketball-nerd dive into the importance (and difficulty) of properly recognizing perimeter defense with the current awards structure.
• The panel’s unified plea to return positions to award voting, blending technical analysis with humor and storytelling.

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Episode Tone

Insightful, analytical, and conversational. The episode balances light, self-aware humor—especially around the Nets—with deep-dive basketball nerdery, compelling stats, and a clear love for the “defensive glue guys” who rarely get the mainstream spotlight.

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Summary by The Athletic NBA Daily Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

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[Dave Defour]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for April 9, 2026. I'm Dave Defour here with Zena Keda and Fred Katz. Coming up we go deep with Fred on his all perimeter defense team. We break down why Derrick White is actually the Celtics best center and and is Wimby right about defense being 50% of the game? Good morning everybody. Welcome Fred Katz. How you doing? Zena Katus here last week of the regular season. We're going to talk a little bit about Fred's all perimeter defense team but Fred man, welcome back to the show.

[Fred Katz]

Thank you for having me. I'm always thrilled to be a part of it.

[Dave Defour]

Yeah. And I think I'm contractually obligated to then do your show like immediately after this is that we get this home and home. Which by the way, if you guys don't listen to Cats and shoot. Great podcast. Had a fun time talking to Fred a few weeks ago about some of the particulars about like the Knicks and the Eastern Conference in general. Really good follow up conversation to the last time we were on the pod together. Before we get into your all perimeter team, which I, I love the exercise and we, we've talked a lot about it and I'm going to get into your process there. Do you have any end of the season takes that you want to get off your chests?

[Fred Katz]

I got, I got one take. Ooh. And I'm going to shout this out. I'm going to shout out my friend Wade, who is the only remaining Brooklyn Nets fan. Maybe I shouldn't say remaining. Maybe I should just say he's the only ever existing shout out to Mike Smells and Wade. Oh, yeah, Wade. Wade is having a breakdown because the Nets were three games back technically, but really up in the tank on the Sacramento Kings and they have accidentally won a couple of games and might are in danger of falling to maybe fifth lottery positioning after what was supposed to be a glorious tank season after the whole pick swap deal with Houston and Wade. Which means because Wade's losing his mind, I can confidently say the entire Nets fan base because he's the only guy. Exactly.

[Zena Keda]

What did we do this for?

[Dave Defour]

You know, seven and three stretch that the Nets went on. It's right around the time that all the tanking teams got a little bit more competitive. Like the middle of December, where I'm assuming there was some sort of secret memo that went out. It was like, hey guys, clean it up. It's too early for this.

[Zena Keda]

Right, right, right.

[Fred Katz]

I mean, month, month of January, they had like the number one ranked defense.

[Dave Defour]

Defense, yeah, close to it.

[Zena Keda]

We were talking about Jordy Fernandez being an amazing coach around that time.

[Fred Katz]

He's too good of a coach.

[Zena Keda]

But it wasn't for the country to see and that was the problem. It should have been a secretive thing,

[Fred Katz]

but yeah, they play hard, they run good sets. You know, you, you get guys out there who are just like dropping, dropping 14, 17 points. So you've never heard of in the first half and you're like, why are the Nets running this real set when the Pacers are just deciding, just, just actually fall over and just kill over? Like 6 minutes left, tie game. Keel Over. That is the game plan here.

[Dave Defour]

Okay. You know, for. At least they're not fouling.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

Seth Curry. No.

[Dave Defour]

And a game where they have a lead.

[Fred Katz]

Well, I said. I said this to Wade last night when he was breaking down. And I said, what? And I mean, this. What a. A sad place for the league when we're talking about just, like, forget about, like, playing your young guys over your old guys and whether that's contrary. I mean, that. That. That's. That's fine. That's the way it should be. But what a sad place for the league when we're talking about, like, oh, like, you're putting Day Ron Sharp back in the game to close the game. That's malpractice. You gotta be shutting down Day Ron Sharp if you're serious about getting the first pick. Like, what a. You can't be playing Daron Sharp in fourth quarters. Way too good of a rebounder, which he is. Like, that's malpractice. What a sad way to talk about the league when we're talking about that. Like, it's so common practice that we're like, what is?

[Dave Defour]

It used to be that you would play young guys and you would just be bad. But it was development, right? Like, it was. We used to talk about this all the time. We. One of the things, like with Shay Gilders Alexander, when he was missing time, he's like, oh, man, this guy needs reps. All right, now, that one worked out. But don't these players need reps eventually? I mean, like, why, like the wizard shout out to Amin El Hassan, by the way, he. He said this the other day, and. And it. It just stuck with me. Why are the Wizards shutting down, Alex? Sar, come on, man. You're not. I mean, number one, you're probably not winning with him, but doesn't that guy need NBA minutes? I mean, isn't this the entire thing? I think that that actually is the. The most egregious part about the tanking Dyron. Sharp needs to play basketball, man. Like, he is just not good enough to not be playing in games.

[Fred Katz]

Well, he is. He is playing right. And the Nets are going to be fifth in lottery position. Maybe Wade thinks they're somehow going to fall to fifth and lottery positioning. And then there are going to be four teams that enter the top four that were somewhere between six and 14, and the Nets are going to fall to ninth, and he is. He. He is out. He's out.

[Zena Keda]

His world is collapsing around him. I mean, the answer to that, Dave, I think, is the Same reason that folks have people that absolutely should be playing in summer league, not playing in summer league. And it's the injury thing, right? Oh, we don't want to risk anything, whatever. It's like these guys need to be playing in the summer league. They need these reps, they need opportunities. But I feel like it's the same thing with these tanking teams.

[Dave Defour]

I don't know. Listen, you're never going to prevent every injury. Fred Van Fleet tore his ACL in a, in a pickup game, you know, before training camp. Right? Like, this is just, stuff happens. But not playing these guys in NBA games. NBA minutes are a premium, right? They, there's, there is a finite amount of them that you get, period. And to not allocate them to the players that need them to develop just. It's completely backwards to me. But I understand you got to lose to get that pick. It would help if the Nets had hit on any of their draft picks last year. I think like, to be a Nets fan, there's not like, what is there to hope for outside of, hey, maybe this is the year that we get number one.

[Fred Katz]

They have a lot of draft picks. What do they have, 13 picks, first round picks, six years or something like that? They have a lot of draft picks which kind of gets overlooked. They have cap maneuverability. I think they'll get something for Michael Porter Jr. That's why they hold on to him, because they want something for Michael Porter Jr. Although they held on to other guys and didn't get a ton for those guys. Held on to like Dorian, Finney Smith and didn't get a ton for him. Got seconds. But I think they'll get something from Michael Porter Jr. Especially as another year like this. That's not a lot. I like Jagor Gilman. I like Gilman.

[Zena Keda]

I was going to say he has potential to be something bigger than what he is right now.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. Had a strange. Never seen a guard get called for so many defensive 3 second calls. Wanted to write a note on this for my notebook all season. Never did it. Never seen a guard get called for so many defensive 3 second calls. The Nets in general just get like a ton of defensive three second calls. Never seen a guard get called for so many defensive 3 second calls. Yeagerman just, just, just constantly in the paint. That's like a Nets defense thing.

[Dave Defour]

Yeah, well, that's one of those things, right? They can't call three seconds every single time. So why, why two, nine.

[Fred Katz]

You know what I mean? Call it on the rookie. Call it on the rookie and it just happens like, I don't know, probably 10 times this year. Dude's had a defensive three second call. But yeah, Gilman's good. He's. He's had some really nice passing games. He's got height. He shot the ball way better than I expected him to. This year. I actually found the three point rate to be simultaneously concerning, like, and encouraging where I'm like, okay, shot the ball really well, but I'm also like, can you get to the rim a little bit more? Like, can you use your dribble to get to the rim more? Like, can you not rely on that to the degree that you are. But I like him. The other guys are like, I'm not going to have German all rookie though, right? Like, even though he's a top 10 pick, I, in a, in a, in like a, like last year I would have had, if he, if he were in last year's draft class and had this season, I would have had him all rookie. This year's rookie class is too good.

[Dave Defour]

It's absurd. This is the only podcast, by the way, talking about the Brooklyn Nets the last week of the regular season. That's one of you guys. Listen to the NBA Daily.

[Fred Katz]

You know, in journalism school, you're taught to put your most interesting tidbit in the lead.

[Zena Keda]

In the lead.

[Fred Katz]

And then you meet the real world and you're like, nope, yeah, not gonna do it. No, we're starting with, we're gonna start about. Talk about Jagor Dion, defensive, three second goals.

[Dave Defour]

It's amazing. Guys, stick around. After the break. We're going to talk about Fred's all perimeter defense team and how he got there.

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[Dave Defour]

All right, Fred. Defense in the NBA is funny because there are people that know it when they see it and there are people that just think that it doesn't exist. And perimeter Defense is, in my opinion, it's disregarded in favor of rim defense. Like, you see these guys like Victor Womenyama, Rudy Gobert, Bam Adebayo, Chet Holmgren, they're going to be the front runners for defensive player of the year every single year. We do not recognize the job that these guys that guard on the perimeter and at the point of attack do, and you do. And so I appreciate the amount of work that you put into this stuff. Every year you and I had a conversation about it on the phone. I want to go into a little bit, like, how did you get this team set? Like, how much film are you watching to do this, man? Like, pretty. This is detailed.

[Fred Katz]

A lot. A lot. Definitely a lot. I mean, I. I know the guys who I'm going to focus on throughout the year, and I obviously know the guys are great, but, like, you know, I do two teams. I do a first team and a second team. And the reason it takes me a long time to write these stories and the reason why it takes me a long time is because, like, I think I had 66 guys on my initial list. And then I was like, okay, I think I just named every perimeter defender in the NBA who's not a minus. I kind of have to cut this down a little bit. And I take out the guys who I'm like, okay, you know what? Because something about me, I don't know, there's something in my brain, my Internet brain, makes me feel like if I just put them in the Google Doc, then the commenters will know that I gave a shout out to their guy when they say, why is my guy not on your team? Why is he not there? Then in my brain, I can be like, I put him on the Google Doc. You should know that he's there. You really should have seen that. I can show you the Google Doc. And so I just, I. I kind of go through it. I also use it as a good exercise to kind of prep myself because I'm. I'm a real awards photo for the real awards. And so I. It's a good exercise to kind of prep myself for, like, being the most knowledgeable actual voter that I can be. And, you know, in this case, I kind of narrowed it down to like, maybe 15, 16, and. And I, you know, just kind of what I had watched all year and whatever else. And then I started watching a lot of film on all the guys and studying numbers and really seeing where everything came up to. And some of them are just like, guarantees, like, obvious. Like, I. Obviously Derek White was Going to be there. I think he's been the best perimeter defender in the league this year. Obviously, he was going to be there, you know, obviously, OG Anunoby was a slam dunk for me. Scotty Barnes was a slam dunk for me. Asar Thompson was a slam dunk for me. And I was like, still going to watch film and I'm going to try to find something that's different. So I'm not just writing like, this guy gets a lot of steals and this guy gets a lot of blocks.

[Dave Defour]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

Was.

[Dave Defour]

Was Kayson Wallace the. The last guy into your first team?

[Fred Katz]

He was. He was. That was a tough one. That was a tough one.

[Zena Keda]

Who just missed the cut and first team.

[Fred Katz]

Who just missed the cut on first team. Steph Castle was probably my first guy on second. Steph Castle and Amin Thompson were like the other two guys who I was really considering there. And they had them on the second team, the first two guys off the teams altogether. There was one guy who I didn't put on either team, and I felt really terrible. And I was like, I wish there could be 11 spots for this. And then I was like, well, it's my awards. I could do 11 spots for this. And then I was like, no, you are constrained by the formats that you yourself created. So I left it at 10, and I left off Chris Dunn, and I felt terrible about leaving off Chris Dunn. Even when you're talking about perimeter defense, size still comes into the conversation. And so, you know, I had him kind of in the grouping of, like, kind of came down to him or Dyson Daniels to me. And I. I went. Dyson, honestly, Because I just feel like Dyson is. Is a more staunch, like a. Like a stronger sort of defender, a more stable guy against bigger guys. Dunn is so awesome, though. He's incredible. And if you want to vote him real all defense, like, no argument, he's great.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. I'm curious about what your criteria. Your criteria was for perimeter defense, especially because you did end up choosing OG Anunoby, Scotty Barnes. They're versatile. Right. They do spend a lot of time guarding centers routinely. What. How did you make the decision to say there'll be perimeter defenders?

[Fred Katz]

So I. It's a good question because I debated whether or not Scotty Barnes. In my head, I debated whether or not Scotty Barnes should be eligible because, like, there's a period throughout the season where Jakob's out and Scotty Barnes is like, garden a lot of bigs. And I was like, you know what?

[Dave Defour]

He.

[Fred Katz]

He guards the Perimeter. He's not. He's not a center. He guards the perimeter. And I shouldn't penalize him for his versatility, because versatility is something that gets you onto the team. Probably shouldn't eliminate you from the team. And so my. My logic essentially just comes down to, you know it when you see it. It's like, obviously Wemby is not going to be eligible.

[Dave Defour]

Right.

[Fred Katz]

Obviously, Bam is not going to be eligible. Even though he sometimes plays the 4 OG is. Is a classic wing to me, even though, like, the piece that I highlighted was I did a film breakdown with him on a clip from him in a game against Nuggets this year where they had him guarding Nicole Jokic. And this year against the Nuggets, he guarded Jamal Murray in the first game and he guarded Nicole Jokic in the second game. And then he also guarded Cam Johnson for stretches. And you guarded Aaron Gordon for stretches, and he guarded Bruce Brown for stretches. And it's like, this dude just guards everybody. Like, he just starts on everybody. I also think who you start on when they're not trying to either use you as a roamer or hide you is something that's a good indicator, too. I guess. So, like, you know, like Bam out of Bio, for example, is someone you see defending the perimeter and is. Is great switching onto guys, but you're not really starting Bam on a small point guard. Like, you're not going to do that. You're gonna switch them onto a small point guard, start him on a big. Or you might put them on a wing, but it's usually a wing who doesn't shoot, and he's a roamer.

[Zena Keda]

It's basically your assignment to start the night. If it's on the perimeter, you're probably in a good space to start.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

If it's. If you're. If. If. With the caveat of if you have to guard that guy, and it's not because of some sort of hack where they're trying to either hide you or exploit somebody else.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Dave Defour]

You said Derek White, the best perimeter defender in the league this year. I agree with that. Number four defense in Boston without a dominant defensive center.

[Fred Katz]

Well, they have a dominant defensive center.

[Dave Defour]

Okay.

[Fred Katz]

Derek White. Derek White is their dominant defensive center. Yeah.

[Dave Defour]

So why is he not considered the front runner for defensive player of the year? Doesn't he have a harder job than. Than Wemby does? I know that Wemby affects the. The defense in just insane ways, but doesn't Derrick White have a harder job?

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, well, you don't get compensated for how hard your job is. You get compensated for how much of an impact you make at your company. You know, is that, is that accurate? I'm pretty sure that's accurate. I'm pretty sure the assistant to the CEO has to be there all the hours the CEO has to be there. Doesn't make as much as the CEO.

[Dave Defour]

Could you make a case for, for Derek White as defense Player of the Year?

[Fred Katz]

I don't think you could make a reasonable case for anybody other than Wemby as defensive player of the Year, unless, number one, Wemby misses one more game and doesn't play in one more game and is knowledgeable, or number two, you are actively trying to be contrarian. I don't think anybody could. I don't know, Zena, are.

[Zena Keda]

I'm with you. I, I, I agree.

[Fred Katz]

You made a face. I didn't know if it was one agreement or you're like, no, no, no.

[Zena Keda]

I was, I was making a face to. You're right. The contrarians. Yes. Agreed.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. So, no, I don't think you can make a case unless you're Dave, apparently. I don't think.

[Dave Defour]

No, no, I'm not making a case here.

[Fred Katz]

I'm trying to get anybod Wemby, but I mean, Derek, Derek White, I'm, I, I, I might have him third on defensive player of the year. I might put him behind.

[Men's Wearhouse Advertiser]

Behind.

[Dave Defour]

Chet, I'm assuming.

[Fred Katz]

Behind Chat. Yeah, he's, he's been, I mean, I wrote in the story, and it sounds like hyperbole, and I genuinely did not mean it as hyperbole. I really actually meant this. He's been like the guard version of Giannis.

[Zena Keda]

I got, you got to break that down because that, that framing was wild to me. Like, as I, I read it, I was like, oh, I cannot wait to ask cats about this. Where did you, how did you land on this?

[Fred Katz]

Okay, Giannis, like, prime Giannis Defensive player of the year. Giannis almost never guarded the other team's best player. As a matter of fact, it was, like, kind of controversial that he wouldn't guard the other. Like, there were playoff series against Miami where it's like, why isn't he guarding Jimmy Butler? Why wouldn't he take Jimmy Butler? It's like, that's not the best use, to be honest. He is awesome on the ball, but Giannis's best use is put him on the weak side and he will take away half the floor. He will make sure that he is over in help immediately that he's protecting the rim that no passes are going to go by him. That if you do get to the rim, guess what? There's absolutely no place to kick out to in the weak side corner. Like he is going to take everything away that he possibly can. He's going to guard two guys at once. He's going to be excellent on the backsides of screens, he's going to communicate everything else and he's going to make his impact away from the basketball in a defensive player of the year level kind of way. And he's going to do it as like a back line defender who's not necessarily guarding in the middle of the defense, but on the edges.

[Men's Wearhouse Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dave Defour]

And the luxury of Brook Lopez. Right. Like who was also a defensive player of the year caliber center. And so you could do that. Right. It's similar to what the warriors were able to do with Draymond Green and Kevin Durant for those years.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, totally. And, and the reason why I compared Derrick White to Giannis specifically is because Boston is using him differently than they've ever used him. And then San Antonio ever used him where like they have intentionally pulled him off of the other team's best perimeter player for the entire season and they are using him in that sort of weak side corner roving sort of goal like catch all the catch all. Just take away that side, take away the passing lanes, come over and help take away the rim. And he's 6 foot 4 and you're not supposed to be in that role at 6 foot 4. If you look@b ballindex.com they have a really cool stat that they do which grades matchup difficulty. And you know, if you have which is like how the usage of the people you're guarding. So essentially, essentially how often are you on the lead playmaker for the team that you're playing? So I think the highest matchup difficulty in the league this year is like Lou Dort. Makes sense. Thunder always put him on the other team's best player.

[Dave Defour]

Yep.

[Fred Katz]

You know, Steph Castle, ridiculously high matchup difficulty, so on and so forth. Derrick White throughout his whole career has an above average matchup difficulty every year of his career. This is the first year he's. He's had a negative matchup difficulty because they're just stationing him in the weak side corner and he is rovering. And the most amazing, it's not the biggest impact skill in the league this year, but the skill that just blows my mind the most in the NBA this year is Derek White's wearing protection where it's like, you're not supposed to be able to do that at 6:4, because you have to be a rim protector to really pull that off. Like, if you're not a rim protector, then you're like, I guess, like Paul George, which is. Which is amazing. Like Paul George, extremely deserving. All defensive guy many times. But Derek white is blocking 1.3 shots a game. He's going to become the second player in NBA history of his height to block 1.3 shots a game. Just the second. Dwayne Wade's the only other guy who has done this. And he's not just like going up for a random block. He's almost averaging more blocks than fouls.

[Zena Keda]

Wow.

[Fred Katz]

He averages 1.3 blocks and 1.6 fouls.

[Dave Defour]

That's amazing.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, that's insane. He never fouls.

[Zena Keda]

But that's. I think that's part of the cool. Part of this meditation that you did was like, showcasing these players that can guard at such an elite, exceptional level without fouling. And that's so big. I think about Wemby in his comments as he was making the case for MVP and how he was like, you know, defense is 50% of the game. And then Draymond following up and being like, I hate that he had to say it. But yeah, that's exactly right. And it made me think about what you said about Scotty Barnes and this idea of clutch player of the year and how we are already primed for it to be an offensive award, but it should also be considered defensive. And that, like, blew my mind. I love this concept of game winning stops. Do you think that defensive stops, like, throughout history in general, but particularly thinking about this perimeter defense team that you've created, it gets enough shine? Like, do we. Do we put enough emphasis on these stops that change the trajectory of games, change the outcome of games, change the trajectories of teams even?

[Fred Katz]

No, we definitely don't because it's not as obvious. And we tend to focus on wherever the ball goes. So we tend to focus on the guy who missed what would have been the game winning shot as opposed to the guy who stopped the game winning shot. And that's only natural. It makes perfect sense. It's on one side, you're focusing on a negative. I don't mean like a positive action or a negative action. I mean like, you're focusing on the absence of something on one side. If you're focusing on the defense, you're focusing on the absence of something which is always more difficult to do. And it's also More difficult to prove. You know, a lot of times we

[Dave Defour]

say make or miss league all the time. Right. As if the defense has nothing to do with it.

[Zena Keda]

Right, Totally.

[Fred Katz]

I also hate when people say make or mislead. What sport isn't a score points or don't score points sport?

[Dave Defour]

Field goal kickers don't make or miss.

[Fred Katz]

Right. Like is, is, is, is, is baseball not a get out or get a hit league? Like what gets shut out or score. It's a get shut out or score league, you know?

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Fred Katz]

Like.

[Dave Defour]

Well, you only really have two options when you shoot a basketball. Right?

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. I mean in every, not a make or miss sport, I just. Every single thing that involves scoring is a score or don't score scoring thing.

[Dave Defour]

But now to be fair though, I would say that the idea that NBA defense is actually half the game, it is weighted heavily toward the offense. Right, right. And the defense is always, and this is every sport, defense is always reactionary. Right. You're always trying to guess where the offense is going. That's why the offense has an advantage. So it's not quite 50, 50. So like the best defensive player in the league certainly should have an edge on an average offensive guy when it comes to awards. But like this, this idea that Wemby is the best defensive player and thus if he's just an above average offensive guy, he should be mvp. I think that is a little, that's a bridge.

[Zena Keda]

Whereas the opposite is true, where you can be an above average or an exceptional scorer. But, but you have to defender, you

[Dave Defour]

have to be exceptional on offense. You have to be one of the five best offensive players in the league.

[Zena Keda]

Good point.

[Dave Defour]

To have that. And, and that, I mean you look at Nicola jokic, he averages 30 a night and then 10, 11 assists a night. And that is so many more points responsible for on the scoreboard. And so yeah, Wimby erases a lot of points certainly, but it's more nebulous. Whereas on the offensive end, I mean it's literally, it's, you know, five ball, corner pocket, Aaron Gordon sitting there and you can see that Jokic made it happen.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, that's true.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. But anyway, yes, I think we should, we should focus. There's some cool defensive plays that happen. Scotty Barnes has been unbelievable in crunch time this year. He has had so many magnificent game saving blocks. And yeah, I mean I threw that line in there about clutch player of the year mostly because I hate clutch player of the year and I'm gonna blow up that award. It's a bad Award agenda.

[Dave Defour]

There is. There is some momentum behind you there. I saw Howard Beck called it out in one of his articles the other day. I don't know what. Would you. Would you replace it with anything? I mean, is there something. Is there a better way to define what they're attempting to define?

[Zena Keda]

What if you just split it?

[Fred Katz]

But I.

[Zena Keda]

If you had an offensive clutch player of the year and a defensive clutch player.

[Fred Katz]

Oh, that's even worse.

[Dave Defour]

That's really. Because now he just doesn't want the award.

[Fred Katz]

No, I want the award. No, I want. You know what I want. You know, the award that I want, which is very pertinent for today and literally why I do this series every year. I want. I want perimeter defender of the year.

[Zena Keda]

You think that dominate the conversation?

[Dave Defour]

They do.

[Zena Keda]

They do.

[Fred Katz]

Yes, they. They do.

[Zena Keda]

And they happen to the W as well, by the way. Yeah, it's a thing.

[Fred Katz]

It's inherent to the sport. I mean, you have to be tall to play basketball. If you're tall, you have an advantage in basketball. Every. You don't need to know a lot about basketball to be able to know that. I. This is actually not my idea. The whole reason I do this series is because of Jalen Williams. Wing Jalen Williams. Because last year he went on, I think it was the old man in the three and was like, all these. And he was an all defensive player last year. And all these dudes are. All these bigs are winning. There should be a perimeter defensive player of the year. And I was like, he's right. I started to think it's. It's similar to baseball, where they realized they had. They had MVP for 23, 24 years, and they realized pitchers just weren't winning it. Like Hal Neuhauser won a couple. And they're like, pitchers aren't winning this. Let's give the pitchers an award. We'll still make them eligible for mvp, right? So that if they're so magnificent, they can still win mvp. But we're going to give them their own award. We're going to create the Cy Young Award. They can win the Cy Young. It's going to be looked at as just as prestigious as winning mvp. Even though if you win Cy Young and don't win mvp, technically the voters are saying we think the guy won MVP had a more valuable season. Nobody thinks that it's prestigious. It's who won the Cy Young, who won the mvp. And if you win both, it's just unbelievable. It's like when Marcus Smart won Defensive Player of the Year it's like, my goodness, a guard. One defensive player. Gary Payton, Michael Jordan, Kawhi, those guys. Winning defensive player of the year is an amazing thing. It should be like when a pitcher wins the mvp. And in other years, in a normal year, when Rudy Gobert wins or Wemby wins, you can have perimeter defender of the year and you can vote for Derek White or you can vote for OG Anunoby, who's another guy who. I'm going to have my first team all defense, like my real first team all defense who. Who's been remarkable this season guarding everybody. You know, you can vote for Scotty Grimes.

[Zena Keda]

Would that be.

[Fred Katz]

Not eligible?

[Dave Defour]

Not eligible.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Fred Katz]

I went by 65. Game roll.

[Zena Keda]

Okay. Okay.

[Fred Katz]

But.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, well then question then. Do you think that the NBA going back to a positional all defensive team could help this?

[Fred Katz]

Yes. I mean, the reason that I like the Jalen Williams suggestion is because the NBA getting rid of positions on all defense just makes it load up with your team. Like, you could make a very reasonable argument that there should be like four centers.

[Dave Defour]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

On first team all defense.

[Dave Defour]

Four centers. And Derrick White.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. Four centers. No G. So five centers. Yeah, exactly. And it's just like that's, That's.

[Verizon Advertiser]

I don't.

[Fred Katz]

I don't like that. I don't like that.

[Dave Defour]

I actually think they should bring positions back for everything. Bring it back for all the awards. Because I. I represent the game that we watch. This positionless thing is just. It. It actually is fake.

[Zena Keda]

It.

[Dave Defour]

It's. You're watching one side of the ball and you're not paying attention to the defense at all. So I would rather they brought that back because it, it just makes more sense. Jalen Rose used to say that the positions are there so that like a novice can understand the game. Right. Like when you're describing it, guards do this, forwards do this, centers do this. And that's still how it works in the N B A, believe it or not. I know everyone switches a lot and there's so much more zone. These guys still have positions, and it would be easier to tell the story if the league would bring that back.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, I mean, the league might be positionless, but it's not roleless.

[Dave Defour]

Right.

[Fred Katz]

You still have a role.

[Zena Keda]

You better cats say something. Yes, yes. Bars.

[Fred Katz]

Everyone still has a role. You know, like. Like you still have to fill our role. And you could make it go by roles or you can make it go by whatever you want, but there should be some sort of delineation because the reality is like Derek White Providing rim Protection as a 6:4 point guard is what gives his rim protection value. Like, opponents are shooting 55% on dunks and layups. When he's the closest defender, that's more valuable than if it's a Zubatz's rim protection. He's averaging the exact same number, 55%. Which by the way, puts into context how insane that Derek White stat is that if it's a. Zubatz is a good defensive center and a massive human being and opponents are shooting 55% against him at the rim and they're shooting 55% against Derrick White at the rim. But that Derrick White stat, even though it's the same number, is so much more valuable because it is coming from a place where you normally like the. The expected rim protection from that spot, from that role, from that position, whatever you want to call it, the expected rim protection is. Might as well not be there.

[Dave Defour]

It's like if you have a power hitting second baseman.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. Also, by the way, for making. If we're making the baseball comparisons, like

[Dave Defour]

we're just starting a baseball pod.

[Fred Katz]

Baseball does it right. Baseball does it right. Like, imagine if baseball got rid of positions for Gold Glove.

[Dave Defour]

Right?

[Fred Katz]

You know, like a first baseman would never get a Gold Glove. We'd be like, what the heck? You know, everybody knows that first base defense is less valuable than shortstop defense. Nobody in their right mind would ever argue anything other than that.

[Zena Keda]

But I was a first baseman.

[Fred Katz]

First baseman to get. Yeah, there you go. We'll make you feel good. I was seventh grade volleyball. We still want the first baseman to get the Gold Glove. And Gold Gloves would just fill up with shortstops and center fielders and catchers and that would be it. And it's like you do it for your position.

[Dave Defour]

Yeah. All right, everybody go and read Fred over at the Athletic, the two articles with the two teams up there right now. Fred, one of the best in the game. Appreciate you for hanging out. Thank you, Fred. Thank you, Xena. I'm Dave. This is Ben, the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up. Thanks for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed it, drop a. Like leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us.

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