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- [00:00]
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Dave Dufour
If you're like us on the show, you're always on Triple Double Watch. That's why we were impressed when we learned that Apple Card was posting numbers of their own.
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Zena Keda
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- [02:38]
Dave Dufour
Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily. Coming up, the Wolves got a huge win to keep them out of the play in. And Fred Katz is here to talk about his all NBA defensive perimeter team. Good morning, everybody. Good morning, Xena.
- [02:57]
Fred Katz
Morning, Dave. Welcome back, you guys.
- [02:59]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, welcome back. Although, you know, I wish you would have gotten an actual vacation. But Final four was great.
- [03:06]
Fred Katz
Final four was unreal. UConn took the natty with, I mean with a statement win in both Final four and the championship game. Really, really fun.
- [03:17]
Dave Dufour
Yeah. And by the way guys, just a quick reminder, that's no off season for Xena. And for the podcast, go and check it out. Subscribe. They're working hard and got WNBA draft coming up. So literally no off season at all over there. You know, we're almost in the postseason, Xena, and we have lucked into such a fun season that we're going into the final weekend with 15 playoff spots up for grabs. So there's so much seating work to be done this weekend. And it starts last night where we had a bunch of teams going into the night tied up out in the west and a couple of them met up Minnesota and Memphis. So we had a marquee matchup. And, and the, the. Let's just, let's just be frank about it. The Memphis Grizzlies did not meet the moment in the way that the Minnesota Timberwolves did. Anthony Edwards had 44 points. Just looked like he came out ready to deliver a knockout blow at any point. And The Timberwolves did, third quarter, 52 points. That's the most points in a quarter by any team this season. Anthony Edwards had 19 in that quarter. I mean, it was big game, big game player. And, and you know, Zena, like we've seen him do this all year long and just step up big games.
- [04:33]
Fred Katz
No, I mean it was talk about the Grizzlies not meeting the moment. They were back and forth.
- [04:40]
Dave Dufour
Sure.
- [04:40]
Fred Katz
For a moment to the point that we were saying, you know, it's great to see how many big game players are available for us to watch, especially this late in the season. John Morant, Desmond Bane, both going back and forth with Julius Randle and Anthony Edwards. I mean, it was really exciting to watch. But it was very clear that the difference began be became that the bigs for Memphis could not keep up with what the guards were trying to do. I mean, there were several plays in which you saw John Morant, Scottie Pippen, Desmond Bain deciding Santee Aldama, even like, we're just going to go do this on our own right now because Jaren Jackson Jr. Is still coming up the court. Zach Edie still coming up the court. And don't get me wrong, those two guys can run the floor. It's one of their most underrated skills, particularly for Zach Eddy. But after the game just started going back and forth and it was bucket for bucket for bucket. You saw Memphis bigs get exhausted and that caused silly fouls and that slowed the momentum down for Memphis and it ultimately derailed them and Minnesota took advantage.
- [05:42]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, the game changed in that third quarter. You had both Jaren Jackson and Zach Eddie pick up their fourth fouls. And as soon as that happens, I mean this is kind of the same old story with Jaren Jackson. You, you, as soon as he picks up that fourth foul, especially if it's early in the third quarter, you know you're going to get soft defense until the 4th because he wants to be out there to score. You know, he averages 29 minutes a game and this is a big reason why Zach Edie, look, he's big and he's going to pick up a bunch of fouls and, and I think the expectation that he can maintain the pace that Memphis plays with for, for four quarters is probably unrealistic. I, I don't know how they figure that out here in the next, you know, week, week and a half. Although they may now be because they do not have an easy path to the playoffs at all. You know, this loss really sets them back. They've got, they've got to fly from Memphis to Denver for a back to back against Nicola Jokic. And by the way, it's a must win for Denver too. So every game now is just a playoff game. Xena for the Timberwolves. You know, this was, this was one of these games where we're going to say why are they like this? Like what? What is wrong with the Timberwolves?
- [06:55]
Guest Speaker
You know what I mean?
- [06:56]
Fred Katz
Right, right.
- [06:57]
Dave Dufour
They blew the big lead against the Bucks. They, they have a 52 point quarter. They've got this, you know, excellent defensive effort and then they start kind of giving it up in the fourth. Had Job Morant not picked up that Tech. Yeah, it kind of killed their momentum. Right. Like.
- [07:12]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [07:12]
Dave Dufour
I think that that technical really stole their momentum. Chris Finch actually drew up a really nice out of bounds off a timeout and you know, so that was that kind of steady the ship. But the Timberwolves, like they're confusing.
- [07:26]
Fred Katz
They are. I mean you talk about that 52 point quarter and you also talked about the, the Bucks in that game against the bucks in the fourth quarter they scored 13 points. That's the lowest in the fourth quarter they've had all season. Like, this is just the ups and downs of this Minnesota Timberwolves team. And it's so frustrating because you know what they're capable of. I mean, you saw the way Julius Randle came out last night against Memphis. Quickly finding his shots, quickly getting to his spots. You know, also finding his teammates really well too. Yet there's times where there's no point of attack defense and you know, the Memphis Grizzlies or whomever can just get right to the paint. And it's like if I'm Chris Finch and you saw him on the bench last night just rubbing his chin like, how are we going to get some consistency? I don't want to see Anthony Edwards in the playoffs because he blacks out, as he mentioned in his post game interview. But it's the consistency of the team effort, right? Like, can you get 44 points out of Anthony Edwards in a series every game? Maybe not.
- [08:32]
Dave Dufour
Maybe get a pretty.
- [08:33]
Fred Katz
But yeah, I would put it past him, right? I would put it past them, right. But it's a matter of can you make sure that, you know, Rudy Gobert doesn't get in foul trouble and get tangled up with the wrong folks or can you make sure that Mike Conley is more than just a passing point guard and makes sure that the pace is good and all the spacing's right.
- [08:52]
Dave Dufour
Get Randall to play like he did last night, where he is correct. He like point 5 decision making is the biggest difference for Julius Randle. When he's just quick to it, you know, moving the ball, taking a shot or driving, it's a, it's a game changer. But you know, sometimes he gets a little dribbly. So, you know, look, there were other games that have playoff implications. The Pacers and Cavs had a, had a fun game. Now the, the Cavs, they weren't really playing anybody. They played some guys in the first half. Ty Jerome has just had a ridiculous stretch of games here heading into the playoffs.
- [09:27]
Fred Katz
He's had a ridiculous season. Let's just put this out there like he's had a ridiculous season. And if it wasn't for DeAndre Hunter joining this Cavs team, like the Clear Six Player of the Cavs has, you know, was Ty Jerome and potentially of the league. But also there was a statement mentioned on the broadcast like people don't be surprised by what Ty Jerome is doing. Like when you think about Kenny Atkinson said this after the game, he hasn't Had a body of work to be able to prove that he's capable of this. When he was with the Warriors, 45 games. Didn't spend a day in the G League or maybe like a few days in the g league. Average 7 points. Was coming off the bench behind Steph Curry. And so it makes sense that people are like, eh, Ty, no, he's competitive, he's tenacious, he's capable of scoring, he's capable of getting to his spots like he's has had a season so far.
- [10:12]
Guest Speaker
Yeah.
- [10:12]
Dave Dufour
And the Cavs and their bench, they, they just kind of stayed hot in the game and it wound up being pretty fun. The Pacers wind up winning. I mean talent in the NBA usually wins. The Pacers needed to get the win. They clinch home court for the playoffs. They, they do have a chance. They could pass the Knicks for the three seed, but the Knicks would have to lose to Brooklyn on Sunday. And that's unlikely to happen. But it could. The, the Milwaukee Bucks also, you know, they win their game, but it didn't really matter. So now the, the Bucks are in a bit of a pickle here. Xena. Okay. They go into the weekend, they played two games against the Detroit Pistons. They currently have a two game lead over the Detroit Pistons. So if they win one game, they stay ahead of the Pistons. They are the 5 seed. They would go on to likely face the Pacers. But if they were to lose both games, they dropped to the six seed. And all of a sudden the Milwaukee Bucks are facing the New York Knicks. Now that's a different world. If you're the Bucks. Let me ask you, Xena, just for the Bucks, I think if you're the. Look, the Pistons, they're trying to win. They, they do not have any excuse to play around with any seating. They should want to win both of the games against the Bucks regardless. They should want to be the 5 seed. So we won't even ask about that. But with, with the Bucks, you could make this argument, look, it's a more veteran team. They have to pick their spots a little bit. They need to be smarter about it, you know. No, Damian Lillard maybe.
- [11:42]
Fred Katz
You know what I mean?
- [11:43]
Dave Dufour
There's a lot of question marks for them. So I think if they're playing the seeding game, the basketball gods might not punish them. So who would you rather face if you were the Bucks, would you rather play the Knicks or the Pacers?
- [11:55]
Fred Katz
Ooh. So there's, there's a few ways to look at this. Like one, if you compare how the Knicks did against the Bucks or how the Pacers did against the Bucks. Pacers only won one game of four against the Bucks this season, whereas the Knicks won all their games so far with against the Bucks. So you're like, okay, don't want to match up against the Knicks for that reason. But if you look at how the Pacers have been playing, they're 8 and 2 in their last 10. They're on a roll. And they're also picking up their defensive efforts. Top 15 in the league in terms of defense, but also top 10 in offense. And they're clicking on all cylinders right now. And sometimes that momentum is a thing that you don't want to face heading into the playoffs. But if I'm talking about a series, who can show up night in, night out after scheming for you, adjusting for things, I'm putting more trust in Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns to show up and, and, and pull games out, because we've seen it, we've seen them do it before. I think you don't want to face, you don't want to face the Knicks. I'd prefer to go up against the Pacers.
- [12:59]
Dave Dufour
I think the, the Knicks also, they have a lot of bodies that they can throw at Giannis. You know, OG Anunoby.
- [13:05]
Fred Katz
That's true.
- [13:05]
Dave Dufour
Bridges, that everyone's going to get a shot at Giannis and look, they're not going to stop him, but they're going to make life pretty difficult. Whereas with the Pacers, like you mentioned, I think the Bucks, that rivalry is, it has kind of like lasted through that NBA cup run from, from last year.
- [13:25]
Fred Katz
Sure.
- [13:25]
Dave Dufour
And I think that those games, they do elevate to a different level. The Bucks do, at least. Yeah. I just think that in that scenario, yeah, gotta, gotta go against the Pacers. Any bold prediction for weekend? I mean, with the chaos that we're, that we're looking at. Oh, I mean, anything could happen at this point.
- [13:45]
Fred Katz
It really, anything really could happen.
- [13:48]
Dave Dufour
And what are the warriors going to do? They're going to, they're going to win out.
- [13:52]
Fred Katz
That's what I'm thinking about. Mostly I'm thinking about the Clippers and the warriors because right now the Clippers are scary and after that terrible loss the warriors just had, I feel as if they're going to be galvanized to step up and close out the season. But the biggest thing that the warriors struggle against is tall, athletic, long teams, and that is exactly the epitome of what the Clippers are. So I genuinely don't know, Dave. I don't know. It's kind of crazy. How many spots did you say are up for grabs this weekend?
- [14:24]
Dave Dufour
15. 15 spots still up for grads. I mean it's, it can fluctuate. Yeah, it's.
- [14:30]
Fred Katz
Oh yeah, it's crazy.
- [14:32]
Dave Dufour
Very fun. I still.
- [14:33]
Fred Katz
How dare any of you say this season was boring or the NBA is. No, absolutely not. Take it back. Anyone that said it, take it all back. Because this is crazy. This is exciting.
- [14:42]
Dave Dufour
It is. Speaking of exciting, Fred Katz. Guys, stick around after the break. He's here to talk about his all NBA defensive perimeter team.
- [14:55]
Apple Card Announcer
This message is brought to you by Apple Card.
- [14:58]
Dave Dufour
If you're like us on the show, you're always on Triple Double Watch. That's why we were impressed when we learned that Apple Card was posting numbers of their own.
- [15:05]
Zena Keda
That's right. With Apple Card you can earn 3% daily cash back at Apple and 2% back on everything you buy using Apple.
- [15:13]
Dave Dufour
Pay, not to mention 1% back on everything else. That's a stat line that any fan can appreciate.
- [15:19]
Zena Keda
Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay.
- [15:25]
Apple Card Announcer
Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com as we head into.
- [15:36]
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- [15:56]
Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more@discover.com credit card as you've probably.
- [16:01]
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- [17:01]
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- [17:26]
Dave Dufour
Playoffs are almost here and that means it's award season. Here to talk about some awards he made up Fred Katz. How are you man? You made up the all perimeter defense team, which actually I love because it does feel like bigs are overrepresented on the regular, you know, defensive player of the year conversations, you know, 100%.
- [17:48]
Guest Speaker
That's why I did it. Like Jalen Williams from the Thunder went on a podcast earlier this year and talked about how there should be two defensive players of the year, one for, for bigs and, and one for perimeter players. And my reaction to that was like it's kind of a good idea. I would make it one overall defensive player of the year and then one perimeter defender of the year. Kind of make it how baseball has MVP and Cy Young, where pitchers are eligible for MVP but Cy Young is not looked down upon even though pitchers are eligible for MVP and just make it two equivalents, especially now that all defense is positionless. And last year four of the five first team players were bigs. Like it's just the perimeter defenders deserve their, they deserve their, their recognition and the league is becoming more perimeter oriented. So let's, let's make the awards that and I thought it'd be fun to do an all defense, all perimeter defense team.
- [18:42]
Fred Katz
This is cool because I think there's been similar complaints on the women's side, just the bigs always being represented of overall blocks being overrepresented within the statistical category. But I'm happy we're bringing up how these things are measured up because sometimes the stats don't tell the full story. So Fred, walk us through. What did you consider? How did you formulate this award?
- [19:05]
Guest Speaker
So ultimately defense like size still matters. So if you. If you look at this team, and I'll have stories out on Friday and Saturday morning, doing the second team on Friday and the first team on Saturday. And if you look at them, you'll notice it's mostly wings. It's not a lot of guards. And the guards who I have are bigger guards because size still matters, versatility still matters, strength still matters, all that kind of stuff. And it's really hard to be on there if you're somebody who's five feet and you're six feet. It's really hard to be on if you're five. If you're six feet and you're just kind of flimsy. I did put a couple of guards on there who I thought were really special, and ultimately I just kind of went down to, like, who I thought had done the best job guarding the perimeter and. Or guarding as a perimeter player this season. And different guys have different styles, different strengths, different weaknesses. I did use the 65 game rule because I would like it to be a real award, and I wanted it to be authentic. So I felt terrible about leaving Chris Dunn off. I would have loved to have put Chris Dunn on. Derek Jones Jr. Is another Clipper, where I was like, he's on my short list. He's been excellent. Neither of them qualifies because the 65 game rules. So guys like that were out. You know, I'd love to have a sar. Thompson didn't play enough, so, yeah, so I. So I ended up with the 10 guys I got.
- [20:29]
Dave Dufour
Was there a theme with the guys that you. You landed on? I mean, you know, I don't want to just spoil the list, but I think we all kind of know, you know, Lou Dort, Dyson Daniels, OG Anunoby on your list. Like, was there a theme with these guys that. That you notice, aside from just, okay, they have some size on them. What about, like, style?
- [20:49]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the guys who I have on the first team are just. There were four guys who I knew I was going to have on the first team, and I don't really have a problem. I can talk about it, right?
- [21:00]
Dave Dufour
Sure.
- [21:01]
Guest Speaker
Like, you're gonna kind of know, like, you know, that Dyson Daniels is going to be on the first team, you know, that Lou Dort's going to be on the first team. And I think you have to be a really good point of attack defender in order to do it, because you look at these guys and the thing that stands out so much about a guy like Dyson Daniels, about a guy like Lou Dort, and about a guy like Tomani Camara, all of which I had on the first team. Those guys, if you go to B ball index and you look at their average matchup difficulty, they have a stat which shows basically just how often you're guarding the other team's best player and basically how often you're on fantastic players. Like those are the three guys with the most difficult jobs in the league in terms of just always being on the other team, the other team's best player. And sometimes when you get a player like that, the metrics, the impact metrics people tend to look at don't tend to be as reflective of the quality of their defense. You know, Lou Dort, for example. I think this is still the case for pretty much all season, the Thunder defense, which is incredible, for pretty much all season, the Thunder defense has been better with Lou Dort on the bench than on the court.
- [22:11]
Dave Dufour
Right?
- [22:11]
Guest Speaker
And wow, you could. You could look at that and be like, what the heck is up with that? And that was my first reaction when I noticed the stat, because I'm like, this doesn't match up with the eye test. Lou Dort's freaking awesome. What the hell? And then you do a little deep dive and you see, okay, who's he play with? Who's he not play West? Well, they. They stagger Dort and they stagger Alex Carus pretty much almost. Almost as if you would stagger two fantastic scorers on offense, right? Because they're just too, like, legitimately, you could argue, the two best point of attack defenders in the NBA. So they like to have one of those guys on the court. And when Caruso is out there guarding backups, other teams just can't score. So Dork gets the inverse effect of that. Yeah, he also gets the inverse effect of the fact that every time the other team's best player is on the court, the Thunder sub of men like he is just matched.
- [23:01]
Dave Dufour
That's the stats that have been coming out here recently. You know, you see the scoring averages of the best, you know, the. All the leading scorers, and everybody except for Steph Curry gets shut down to a certain degree. Right? To the way that you can by Lou Dort. And I mean, he. He's the key to actually what they've done. In a lot of ways, their defense falls apart if you don't have Lou Dort.
- [23:23]
Guest Speaker
Yes, absolutely. So on. On December 23, the against. In a game against the Washington Wizards Wizards, Jordan pool went for 30 some odd points against the Thunder Lou Dort. I don't think was guarding him that night, but Jordan poole goes for 30 some odd points. You know, the next time they gave up a 30 point game, March 2nd, wow. They went two and a half months. Lou Dort played pretty, I mean he missed like a couple of games at different points. But like Lou Dort played that whole time. Like to me that is the Lou Dort stat. They went two and a half months. Everyone scores 30 these days. Quentin Grimes is dropping 40. 30 is nothing. 30 is the new seven. Back when like Sean Bradley would score seven. Now it's now these guys are scoring 30. They didn't give up a 30 point performance. And look, it's obviously not just Lou Dort. Their team defense is insane. They are low loaded with defenders. Their schemes are incredible. They're aggressive, they force more turnovers than everybody. And I have three Thunder players on this thing. And if their whole team were eligible for awards, you could legitimately justify putting like eight Thunder players on the real all defense team, which is insanity. But you're right, like a lot of the turnovers they get, even if Dort doesn't get a ton of steals by Thunder standards himself, a lot of the turnovers they get are just caused by Dort taking away a team's first action, then another team frantically having to go into another action late in the shot clock. And he's, he's unbelievable at that. And it's kind of crazy. He's never made an all defense team before. He absolutely, like he will 100% be on my first team all defense this year. He's, he's been fabulous.
- [25:13]
Fred Katz
I'm happy you brought up, you know, the fact that the Thunder are well represented on your list and if you could expand it, you probably have even more. I looked. There's another team that's got multiple representation on your list in Minnesota. Wondering how much, you know, you take teams like the Thunder number one defense in the league, but how much does having a team scheme help boost folks on your list or you know, being a part of this conversation versus someone that's kind of like on a lone island and just happens to be a great defender but isn't on a team that overall is a good defensive team?
- [25:48]
Guest Speaker
It absolutely helps. I think that's just kind of inherent to the sport and that's something that, that is always difficult to judge from the outside. You know, for example, like you mentioned the two Minnesota guys I have on there, I have Jaden McDaniels who, who I actually think has been not quite the level where he was Last year, every once in a while I watch like, you know, a random game against the Hornets and I'm like, Jaden McDaniels isn't quite himself, but he also just sources such extraordinary highs against these elite players. And he's another guy, kind of like Dort and Dyson Daniels and Kamara who I mentioned, who it's like unbelievably difficult life like he is. He's contested the second most shots in the NBA this year of any perimeter player. He is just constantly on the ball all the time and. And obviously is, is fabulous at it and has a great shot blocking wing too. And, and Nikhil Alexander Walker is the other guy I have there who is. Just has the most incredible defensive stance I have ever seen in my entire life. That dude, I bet he has a.
- [26:57]
Dave Dufour
Good low back squat. Like he really. Everything stays.
- [27:03]
Guest Speaker
That's how he plays every single second. And what happens is like when he gets around screens, he'll be like, untouched. I just think he's such a fabulous, such a fabulous pick and roll defender because he'll just be untouched by the screen because he's so low, he like springs himself to some other spot. He looks like a spider. And something that I thought about a lot with those two because Alexander Walker, I kind of was teetering on the edge and I was like, do I want to put jrue Holiday here? And I was really considering Drew Holiday. And then Drew Holiday lost eligibility because he's going to only play 64 games instead of 65. So the decision was kind of made for me. But the thing that I thought about a lot with Alexander and with Jaden McDaniels is they have the ability to be really, really, really aggressive at the point of attack. Because a lot of the time when Alexander, who I think is a fantastic pick and roll defender, when Alexander Walker is guarding at the top end of the pick and roll, the guy behind him is Rudy Gobert. So you should be pressing up against your guy. You should be more aggressive at the point of attack because you want to cause more turnovers, you want to cause more havoc. And if you get beat, you've got maybe the best security blanket in the league behind you. And you look at somebody like a team that I used to cover, the Knicks, where, you know, Mikhail Bridges has gotten a lot of flack for his at the point of attack defense this year. And he was somebody who I really didn't consider putting on because he's just been beat too much at the point of attack. But part of the reason why is because he is not defending as aggressively at the point of attack with Karl Anthony Towns on the back end of a lot of those pick and rolls. And Bridges tends to look a lot better when he's got, when he's got Mitchell Robinson behind him. So it's a little bit of a trade off and basketball is such a context based sport that it becomes difficult. But that's the whole thing. Rudy Gobert makes guys look good. We talked about the Clippers guys who aren't on the like Evita Zubots has been incredible defensively this year. I'm sure those guys feel really good being insanely aggressive at the point of attack with Zubots behind them. You know, I'm sure Derek I'm just.
- [29:13]
Fred Katz
Thinking about Keon Ellis probably doesn't feel the same.
- [29:16]
Dave Dufour
Same with us.
- [29:20]
Guest Speaker
Keon Ellis was on my list. My thing with, I think he's not going to be eligible because he played too little at the start of the season. But my thing with Kean Ellis is he still unsuccessfully gambles too much. Great steals guy, incredible potential, plays hard as hell, totally might get there at some point in his career. He still gambles too much off the ball and there's still so many, so many times where he'll jump a passing lane and all of a sudden someone's not there to help the helper and you give up open three or an open layup or something like that. And, and I, I tried to stay away from gamblers who are like reckless gamblers. Like I didn't have any reckless gamblers.
- [29:58]
Dave Dufour
Well that defense is good enough frankly that one where that defense is just not good enough to, to get a guy on a, on a perimeter team in my opinion regardless.
- [30:10]
Guest Speaker
I mean look the Hawk I, I, I, I, I happily put Dyson Daniels number one and or first team and, and the Hawks defense is not exactly that.
- [30:18]
Dave Dufour
That's a little bit of a different bit of a different story but with the, the context and the nuance. I always go to Fred Katz, especially when it comes to defense because I know you're watching more film than just about anybody else that's going to do it for the show folks. Go and check out Fred's all defensive team again coming out over the course of two days. Fred, thanks for hanging out for Zena Keda. I'm Dave Dufour and this has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us SA.