Dave Defour (2:47)

NBA lectures with Fred Katz. I've been playing around with what we this, but I like that NBA Professor Katz.

Xena Keda (2:54)

There you go.

Fred Katz (2:54)

I mean, look, look, if there's one way to get people to listen to a podcast, it's to tell them, hey, this guy who's on, not only does he talk too much, but he's also going to lecture you.

Xena Keda (3:09)

I guess. Lecture.

Fred Katz (3:10)

I would say that, Dave, you're correct in, in that it's not because. It's because I'm not on here all the time. Except every single person in my life tells me to shut the hell up 19 times a day. So I, I, I don't know if that's necessarily true. Stefan Bondi from the New York Post, and I have a, have a great joke because he and I are very good friends and, and Bondi writes for the Post. And like New York, you know, newspapers have these incredibly high stress deadlines where you have to send in 900 stories by a certain time. And I'll just turn to Bondi and start telling him a story when he's one minute from deadline, and I'll be 19 minutes into the story. And so he's now started to just turn to me and be like, fred, shut the. Can I curse on here?

Dave Defour (3:54)

No, actually, this is a children's show, Fred.

Fred Katz (3:57)

Yeah, yeah, they're, they're, they're choice, choice curse words. But, but I'm always like, oh, right, sorry. I normally laugh.

Xena Keda (4:04)

You're all good.

Dave Defour (4:05)

Well, listen, again, one of our favorites for, for this reason, I, I want to. Before we get to the Knicks and we are going to talk about the Knicks, I want to talk about your Norm pal story over at the Athletic, because this guy's having an amazing season and it's flown a little bit under the radar. Xena has been saying for, I don't know, about a month that Norm Powell is one of the best players in the Eastern Conference and that Miami would have fallen apart. I mean, she's right, of course, but Fred, this story is very interesting, especially the part about his legs.

Fred Katz (4:36)

His legs are weird. I never knew. Did you guys know that about his legs?

Xena Keda (4:42)

I mean, I've seen it, definitely seen.

Dave Defour (4:44)

It, but it just, it didn't occur to me. I mean, there's plenty of people, but his legs are, are very pronounced in the way that they're weird.

Fred Katz (4:53)

Yeah, they're, they're, they're bowlegged. And I was Honestly, I was. I was unfamiliar with the concept. Like, I. I think I obviously, yeah, I think I was in the minority. I think I just had a huge knowledge gap.

Dave Defour (5:05)

Full disclosure. Xena and I talked about this before the show and we were trying to guess how you would pronounce bowlegged. Because like we're from the south. So we say bowlegged. But shouldn't it be bowlegged?

Fred Katz (5:19)

I think it's legged.

Dave Defour (5:20)

Oh, no, it is, it is, it is.

Xena Keda (5:21)

We just. We didn't know if that was like a. A southern influence. Yeah.

Dave Defour (5:24)

Sorry.

Xena Keda (5:25)

So wait, on that note, we had a little bet going really, really quickly. Brad, do you know what knock knead is?

Fred Katz (5:32)

I assume the opposite.

Dave Defour (5:34)

Correct.

Fred Katz (5:34)

Like. Like pigeon toad. I know pigeon toad.

Xena Keda (5:37)

Yes. So if you are bow legged, the knees go outwards and if you are knock kneed, they go inwards towards each other.

Fred Katz (5:43)

Right. Like famed NFL referee Ed knock knee.

Xena Keda (5:47)

Or Kenny Smith from Now that was a bad ed.

Fred Katz (5:51)

Hockey.

Dave Defour (5:52)

Yeah. So did Norm Powell grow up riding horses? Like what. What is, what is it behind the bow leggedness?

Fred Katz (6:00)

So really the way it happened was because I was talking to him, he was nice enough to sit down with me for a while about kind of the season that he's had. And what stands out to me so much about him and what I wrote this story about is his adaptability. Because to be honest, I. And I said this to his face. I kind of put Norm Powell in a box. I kind of thought I knew what Norm Powell was. I kind of thought he was an instant offense guy who was going to be a second, you know, second side option in second units, good scorer, that kind of stuff, and a good player. But last year he really surprised me with the way that the Clippers were using him. Just running him around more screens than he had ever run around in his entire life and using him totally differently. And you know, I said this around the end of last season where he played 60 games, but if he had played 65 or if the 65 game rule didn't exist, which I don't think it should for mip because if the whole. If the whole point of the 65 game rule is not to legitimize awards, that's just a, I guess, unintended consequence of it. The whole point of it is to encourage people not to load manage. Right? If I don't think anybody in the history of the NBA has ever been like, I could load manage, but I might not get M. I P Right, yeah, I could load manage, but what if I don't get clutch player of the year. Like, I, I get the logic for like MVP and all NBA and all defense and all that kind of stuff. Even if it, I don't think it's a great rule. But like, I don't, I don't get the logic for mip.

Dave Defour (7:29)

I would actually be okay with just for the team awards. So like all NBA, all defense, you have to play 65 games. And the other awards not tied to this, I mean, they're going to make a change for like, I think that this year is probably the tipping point.

Fred Katz (7:42)

You don't think so? No, because it's got to be negotiated in the labor deal and that's really complicated.

Dave Defour (7:47)

Yeah.

Fred Katz (7:47)

They can't just be like, oh, we hate it. You hate it. Like, it's always a negotiation. Someone's going to come across and be like, we hate it. And the other side's going to be like, oh, okay, you hate it. Well, then I guess you should give us something back. And they're going to be like, we know you hate it too. We're not giving you anything back. Just do it. And then they're going to be like, nope, you said you hate it. First you got to give us something back and then it gets renegotiated in the next cba. So like, I'm not saying it's not going to happen. I'm just saying, like, it's more complicated than like, a lot of people don't like it. So they're going to change it. It has to actually be negotiated in the collective bargaining agreement as opposed to being just some grand pronouncement from the league. But I said at the end of last year, like, if Norm Powell were eligible for mip, I would have voted for him for mip. Because not only did he put up career numbers with the Clippers, but he did it in a way that we hadn't seen. And I kind of think, you know, a guy in his 30s completely changing the way that he played, becoming this off ball menace and scrambler of defenses that we had never seen before. I thought that that's kind of the embodiment of mip. Like, it's not like Ja Morant, who was supposed to be awesome, was already awesome and then became even more awesome. Like, that's not, that's not the embodiment of mip. To me, the embodiment of MIP is somebody who does it, you know, in a, in a different kind of trajectory.

Dave Defour (9:07)

It's a blue collar award. Right. Like, it's not like a Prestige, like, oh, I was a top 10 pick and I had a rough first two years. Yeah, I feel the same way.

Fred Katz (9:16)

And then he goes to Miami this year. Miami is setting less screens than you could ever imagine any NBA team set, although they've done it a little more lately. But he's not running around screens and he's doing it off of ISOs. And, and now if you look at the, the second spectrum numbers, first of all, he's already set a career high in number of isolations for a season. He's on pace to more than double his previous career high. And if you set the minimum at 200 isolations in a single season, which he's already over, if you set the isolation at 200 isolations in a season since Second Spectrum started tracking, that's that in 2013, there have been like 600 something seasons where players have had 200 plus isolations. And the Heat are scoring 127.2 points per 100 possessions on passes, shots, turnovers and fouls out of Norm Powell isolations. Wow, that would make for the most efficient isolation season ever since this stat started being tracked 13 years ago. And all of a sudden it's like, this dude changed his game completely by running around a bunch of screens last year. Now he's changed his game completely going one on one. Now I will say not all isolations are created equal, right? Like, there's a difference between like prime James Harden with Houston where it's like 19 dribbles. Gonna create something. Get to my step back. Then he is Norm Powell, who's. Who's. Who's not. Not necessarily. Always bringing it up. A lot of it is like getting a mismatch in transition and attacking or it's getting the ball on the move because the Heat are all about like cuts and then refilling spots for the cutter. Like, and then he attacks two, three dribbles off of that. But he's been tremendously efficient. He had some Rain man moments in our interview where I was like, oh my goodness, you're. You're talking about. If he makes this read, then I go this way, this way, this way, this way, this way. And I, I pulled some of it out of the article because I thought it was so dry. But in the moment and even in retrospect, I'm like, I don't know. You guys are nerds like me, so you probably love the quotes. But. But I was like, I could just hear, I could hear non knock on my editor. I could hear literally any editor being like, Fred, you're too, too. Yeah. Only you care about this. This does not read the way you want it to read. He. He's really become someone who thinks the game and has changed a lot. And he's got some really messed up legs.

Xena Keda (11:46)

That was.

Fred Katz (11:46)

His legs are like, so bowlegged.

Dave Defour (11:49)

They don't look like they're comfortable.

Xena Keda (11:51)

It's incredibly pronounced. Okay, so about the comfort, that's the thing that was interesting to me. Like, the fact that the biomechanics of how his legs are shaped are actually like shock absorbers for him. And remembering for those of you that don't, like maybe just, just were learning about Norm Powell this year or maybe just last year when he was with the Clippers going off. This guy was drafted in 2015. Like, he's been in the league for a very long time. And I'm just curious at that rate, especially as we keep talking about these older, more wise players in the league that obviously their bodies are wearing and tearing. The amount of usage for Norm Powell with the combination of these shock absorber legs, is there any concern that he has around the wear and tear on his knees and his legs?

Fred Katz (12:37)

I don't think has any on his knees. He's had some ankle issues over the years, and I think that's the concern. But like, when he was growing up is. And. And they first. Doctors first told him about it when he was a kid, like, they told him. And like, to be clear, there's bowlegged and then there's Norm Powell. Like I have.

Xena Keda (12:55)

It is prominent. Yeah.

Fred Katz (12:57)

So. So the way that I first noticed it was Norm pointing it out to me. So we're. So we're in an arena or we're in the heat practice facility, I should say. And we're sitting down on the side of the court. And I had asked him, I was like, do you think there's. Because something that always stood out to me about him is I don't think anybody has a, like, steps back farther on their step back than Norm Powell. I'm not even talking about, like, how much space he creates, just like the actual stride. And I was like, do you think anyone takes like, like steps back more on their step back more than you? And he laughed and he was like, that's funny. I hadn't really thought about that. And I was like, I just feel like every time I watch you step back, I like vicariously tear my groin. Like, it's, it's. It's just really painful for me to watch. And then he was like, it's probably because I'm bowlegged.

Dave Defour (13:51)

I think it's probably that everybody does a third step on the step back. I think that that's, that's actually the thing. And he's just really, really good at. This was something that started last year right when he was playing for the Clippers. I mean, he became such an elite 3 point guy and a lot of it was his step back. Just. I don't know whether he didn't go to it as much or maybe he added the third step that everyone else was doing and he just, he got better at it. But he was knocking that thing down and it caused everything else to open up for him.

Fred Katz (14:21)

So he added it so him and his trainer AJ Diggs will, will watch a lot of guys. He's, he's a huge hoops head and, and he'll watch a lot of guys and he'll be like, oh, I like that move. So like when he was in Portland, he saw like Dame working on his sidestep three up close. And he was like, oh, I really want to study that. So he'd say to his trainer, he'd be like, hey, can you really break down in video for me, like the mechanics of this, how this happens and can we just work on this all summer? And a few summers ago he, he, he wasn't teammates with Drew Holiday, but he really liked the way that Jrue Holiday used his step back to be able to get to the three point arc when he was inside the three point arc. And Drew Holiday has a very long, like very long stride on his step back as well. Norm's just taller. And so he was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to take that. So he told his trainer and his trainer prepared a bunch of clips and they kind of just studied Drew Holliday, who's a fellow UCLA guy and somebody who I know Norm respects a ton. And, and, and he kind of stole that move from Jrue Holiday. It works really well. But I asked him, so I didn't even know. Honestly, I'm probably an idiot. I don't even know what it was. I was like boat. I thought he said, I thought he said boat legged. I was like boat legged.

Dave Defour (15:42)

Yeah, he's. He floats. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fred Katz (15:45)

Only his legs float. The rest of them, since it's, it's his head, his head goes underwater as his ankles just drift above would be boat legged.

Dave Defour (15:54)

I think this is a two America's thing, Fred. Like Xena and I, we know horse people. That's what it is. And Fred, you just don't know any.

Fred Katz (16:02)

He said he was born like that. He said he was born like that. And I, I, I was like, I was like, I was like, what is, what is that? And he didn't say anything. He, he literally just stood up and he just put his legs together and he, and he put his arms, like, straight by his side and he has this huge smile. Just. He's so excited. I've never seen anyone so excited.

Dave Defour (16:26)

Yeah, cartoon cowboy. When you look at his silhouette.

Xena Keda (16:31)

Yeah, I think he probably was so excited because it is rare to, especially as a basketball player, it, people talk about this, like, a lot of athletes. If you have, if you are bow legged, it adds a little bit to your swag because as you're walking, as you're running, it's, it's just got a little bit to it. LeBron is slightly bowlegged. Like, there's certain athletes that you see. And so it is very rare to go your entire life, play nine years in the league and someone ask you, what is bow legged? He was probably like, oh, yeah, like, this is like teaching a language to someone. I can't wait to show you. You know what I mean?

Fred Katz (17:03)

So he was, he stood up. He, I, I, I'm gonna seem like I'm exaggerating. I'm not. This was the smile.

Dave Defour (17:10)

Well, it was. For those of you listening to, to the show, it was a very goofy big smile for Frank.

Fred Katz (17:16)

All teeth. I saw all of his teeth. It was just all teeth. He was, I've never seen anyone so happy. And he arms just straight by his side and, and he shows me and his, his legs, they, you know, they, they look like, I mean, I have a quote in the, in the story where Bam, out of bio, says his legs look like parentheses and, and which, which I was, I've never been so furious. I mean, it's unbelievable. Quote. I've, yes, I've never, I've never been so furious to get a quote in my entire life because I, I had already written the lead and I was told, I asked someone with the Heat. I was like, who's Norm close with? Like, and somebody directed me to Bam, mentioning one time on a podcast that his mother is bow legged and that he jokes about it with Norm and somebody with the Heat. And so the Heat directed me to that and they were like, yeah, Bam and Norma are really close. See if you can get Bam after a game while you're in Miami. So I didn't know if I was going to get him. It's like, you know, after a Thunder game. And like I'm like, oh, they're playing the Thunder tonight. Like if they, they get boat raced or something like that, it's like this is a goofy interview. Like I, I don't know, like I, I, it's disrespectful.

Dave Defour (18:31)

Let me talk to you about your bow leggedness after you just got beat by 30.

Fred Katz (18:37)

Yeah, I wanted to walk up to, to Bam and ask some goofy questions about his friends bow leggedness. You know, like, it's like just not respectful or professional. And even if, even if Bam were the nicest human being in the world, it's just like after a loss, it's like you're, if you're a competitor, your head is in another place. You're just not even going to be good. In the interview. The, the Thunder, the, the Heat end up winning that game. In a thrilling game, Bam sets a career high with six three point makes and people who think that journalists have no rooting interest. So I'm like, oh yeah, so, so I'm able to be able to get Bam after the game. And Bam could not have been more into the interview topic just was like, that's great. Like, oh my goodness, I get to make fun of Norm. Norm's legs on the record in an article. This is I can use. He was basically like, I can use all my material. Turn the recorder on now.

Dave Defour (19:35)

So good.

Fred Katz (19:35)

And, and we were kind of going back and forth and trading barbs and he has a few quotes in the story that I thought were just incredibly funny. And in my lead, I had had at the time, I referred to his legs as shaped like question marks. And so I said to Bam, I said to Bam, I was like, you know, his legs are shaped like question marks. And Bam said, no, they're like parentheses. And then I was like, what did Bam. I started cracking up. I was like, did Bam out of bio just, just objectively one up me in a parenthesis category analogy.

Xena Keda (20:07)

Like, yeah, like what he eviscerated lead of. Like, yeah, yeah.

Fred Katz (20:12)

I'm like, I gotta redo this because that's way better than what I had. Like he, he, it was, he, it was, it was a great convo. He was, he was really funny.

Dave Defour (20:22)

All right, that's a lot on Norm pal. Guys, go and read that article. It was a lot of fun. I'm glad we got a chance to talk about it. We're gonna take a quick break and then we're gonna come back. We're going to talk about the Knicks and whether they're going to trade for Giannis.

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Dave Defour (22:52)

Okay Fred, the Knicks, they're a mess. They've been falling apart. Feels like there's a lot of finger pointing going on. I'm not quite sure who you blame. What about you, Fred? Who, who do you blame for the Knicks problems right now?

Fred Katz (23:07)

I mean, ultimately everybody. Like it's, it's, it is a bad enough product right now that you blame everybody, especially the people who are directly involved with the Encore product. You blame Mike Brown for the way that they have played their last 11 games. So their last 11 games. They've lost nine times since December 16th, an 18 game stretch. They are 29th in defensive efficiency. 29th. That's not a small number. Their offense has cratered over these last three weeks. It's totally cratered. Their effort level has been. I mean every game is like got to play better. You know. Cat and Mike Brown obviously have. Have had some real issues connecting. That's become, that was apparent at the beginning of the season has become increasingly apparent as the season has gone on. And Cat right now is having his worst season since he became, you know, Cat since he became a great, you know, all NBA level player. And the Knicks right now just, the product is just, it's just dreadful. Like they got, they got killed by the Sacramento Kings. Killed by the Sacramento Kings. The Mavericks were missing everybody except for Cooper Flag and Najee Marshall who is like, I'm sure nobody other than Knicks fans know this. Knicks fans and Najee Marshall and maybe the Marshall family knows this, but Najee Marshall is like, you know how they're, they're always those niche guys whose singular fan bases are like oh my God, that guy destroys my team for some reason.

Dave Defour (24:51)

Chris Middleton kills the Celtics.

Fred Katz (24:54)

Najee Marshall against the Knicks is like unbelievable. Like Najee Marshall averages like was averaging 28 points against the Knicks coming into last night and then killed them again last night. Yeah, yeah. It's like unreal. Like it's not like Naji Marshall has had a few games where he's gone off and he averages 13 a game. Like no, Naji Marshall went for like 40 against the Knicks last year. Like Naji Marshall, he just, just. Floater, floater, floater for these floaters. Ridiculous. But it's just like floater every time. It's, it's such a hilarious, outrageous theme. But I mean they're down 30.

Xena Keda (25:29)

Yeah.

Fred Katz (25:29)

In the first half to Dallas at home. The product is just really bad. And you know, I think part of it is like the Cat Mike Brown thing has gotten worse as the season has gone on and that's just a bad spot to be in. It's. It's just not what you want. The. We can harp on the issues with the roster. The fact that their point of attack defense is not very good. The fact that you know, the offense is, is not elite which like it needs to be top two or three in order for this team to be a contender. The fact that Ogm and Obi and. And Mikhail Bridges have fallen off in month or that Jalen Brunson is having. In my opinion, I think the Worst defensive season of his career as well. Cat gets a lot of flack on that end, but it's Brunson, too. The bench can be inconsistent, but, like, ultimately it's just you gotta have some amount of energy. The only guys on the team who I would say, like, come out both sides of the floor. I never really have ever said to myself all season, like, that guy, that guy's energy and effort is not there. They're only two guys. I guess McBride would be the third McBride. But McBride can like, get into the slog, but I don't think he doesn't play hard. But Mitchell Robinson and Josh Hart are the two who really stand out. Who I'm like, those guys are going for throats. But even Mitchell Robinson, like, is not having his best defensive season because he's ominous restrictions and he has injuries. And I think he feels like he can't be as reckless as he often wants to be because of the risk of injury and all of that. And you know, they sit him so often and it's. It's just they're not in a good place right now.

Xena Keda (27:19)

My question is that there was such a big shift. Like, it's not as if this has like been going on this entire season. Like, we didn't see a high octane offense and we were all like, oh, Mike Brown was the guy. Like, good job bringing in Mike Brown over Tom Thibodeau. But all of a sudden we've seen this drastic shift in the top of the new year. And there are two things that come to mind. You recently wrote about this. The going from the rigid rotations of Tom Thibodeau to the anyone can cook mentality of Mike Brown. You see Mike Brown put out some very interesting combos because he's testing things. He's getting ready to see what could we use in a playoff situation. Feeling pretty confident that the Knicks are going to go to the playoffs. Just how far they'll go is the question. So there's that aspect, this system that is kind of like Ratatouille esque, right? But then you also have this personnel issue. You just listed a few of them. Point of attack defense. You don't have this like grit and grind type of defender at the top of the key. You struggle with size inside, being able to hold down the fort inside, and you don't have a great wing defender and you don't have depth at those positions. That would be all those things. Is this a personnel thing that you gotta fix, AKA the trade deadline, or is this a system Thing, AKA Mike Brown, lock in, find your rotation.

Fred Katz (28:38)

I think this is a personality thing. Tell me more. Ultimately, like, I agree with all the critiques of the Knicks roster that you, anybody might have. They could use a second ball handler. No question. They're going to try to see what they can get for Yabuzela and picks and, you know, maybe they throw Daddy A in there and maybe they throw another one of the young guys in there and they see what they can get for that package because Yabu Saleh is not worked out. They're, you know, maybe they could use an extra wing off the bench. They definitely are struggling defending the point of attack. Like some. I, I don't really care. Like, that was all true a month and a half ago, right? None of that is new. That was all true coming into the season. Coming into the season when you could have very easily and I mean, I did pick this team to make the finals and I wouldn't right now, but coming into the season when you could have picked this team to make it to the finals, coming off the cup win, when they were the favorites to make the finals according to Vegas, like, those were all criticisms of the team then those were all the sorts of X's nose things that they could have wanted to solve. And it sounds so, I don't know. It sounds so, it sounds. Sometimes it sounds so cliched as just like, just do it. Just play better.

Dave Defour (30:17)

Well, that is the adjustment though.

Xena Keda (30:20)

Yeah.

Fred Katz (30:20)

You just gotta not play like crap. Like, you just gotta like try and run back on defense. Dallas, the Dallas Mavericks, who don't play past right, didn't have their guys had 27 fast break points in the first half. Yeah, in the first half in a game where they should have been like, damn, we had a road trip before. We came home for one already we're playing poorly, come out with some amount of vigor. Then you get to the third quarter and it's like, you know, Mike Brown said after the game that, you know, he liked the way they played in the second half more. But I don't know, there are still possessions in that second half where it's like Dallas is streaking down the court. The Knicks aren't rushing back. Yeah, like, you, you got, you shouldn't. When you're down 30 to Dallas, you shouldn't be like, well, we're down 30, I guess we don't have to go. You got to be like, have some pride.

Dave Defour (31:19)

Well, especially when you're already playing like, like trash for the last, you know, month. I mean, it be One thing, if it was like the Timberwolves getting, you know, they lose to the Jazz, sometimes you're going to get blown out in the NBA. Even good teams, right? Like, you don't have your best every night, but especially when you've been struggling, it seems like a little bit of pride would show up, but they don't, don't seem to have it. I mean, we're at the point where you have people speculating that they might move on from Mike Brown, that they may trade Cat. What are they going to do, Fred? Tell me, like, look in the crystal ball. Where is this going? Is it, is it Giannis? Is that going to happen?

Fred Katz (32:00)

I don't think it'll happen midseason. I don't see how they could possibly trade for Giannis midseason unless Giannis, and to be clear, I don't think this is what will happen, but I think the only possible way that they can end up with Giannis midseason is if Giannis goes to the Bucks before the trade deadline. So in the next two weeks, says, I want out and I only want to go to the Knicks. And then the Bucks say, okay, we love you so much that we'll do you the solid of making a terrible trade to send you out. How many, you know how many first round picks the Knicks can trade for Giannis right now?

Xena Keda (32:39)

One Wizards protected.

Fred Katz (32:43)

Yeah, but that's not, that's not, that's not a first round pick.

Xena Keda (32:46)

Yeah, that's not a first round pick.

Fred Katz (32:47)

Yeah, yeah, the Wizards protected first round pick isn't a first round pick. Yeah, they could swap a couple of first rounders. Yeah, they could swap a 2030. They could swap a 2032. So the Bucks are going to do Carl Anthony Towns and no guaranteed first round picks for Giannis. They're just going to be like, sure, go for it. Like, they love Deuce McBride that much. It's not. Knock on Deuce McBride. Deuce McBride is like the one guy this year who, it's like, he's been awesome the whole way, but, like, that's not happening if you put Giannis anywhere near. If you're like Giannis, just give us two other teams. Those two other teams will blow that offer away. Now, if you get to the summer, the Knicks can trade their 2026 pick, which is probably not going to be a great pick even with the way that they're trending. They're still third in the east even after all of this, because the east is the east and, and, and it opens up a 2033 pick that the Knicks would be able to trade. Even in that case, I still don't think the Knicks could make an enticing offer. And I still think it would have to take Giannis putting his finger on the scale and saying, let's do this. Like, let's be real. It's been reported in various places that Giannis, you know, Giannis talked to the Bucks last year over the summer and in August, and the Knicks had an exclusive negotiating window with Milwaukee, and there was nothing ever really close to getting done. Why do we think there wasn't anything close to getting done? Do we think it's because the Knicks were like, no way. We're including Tyler Kolek.

Dave Defour (34:27)

Or do we.

Fred Katz (34:28)

Think it's because the Knicks didn't have. Now, Mikhail Bridges couldn't be traded at that point because he wasn't extension eligible. However, which one we think is more likely because. Because the Knicks were like, oh, no, that Wizards pick is going to become two second rounders. And you know what? The Wizards are pretty bad. Those are going to be some good second round picks. And you never know. You end up with pick number 33. Anything can happen. Like, we think that's the case, or we think the Bucks were like, make us your greatest offer. And the Knicks made their greatest offer and the Bucks were like, like, the Knicks aren't in a position to make that trade unless a player successfully forces his way into it. We've seen no sign that Giannis, I mean, look, we've seen signs that Giannis might end up leaving Milwaukee at some point in the. In the near future. We've seen no sign that Giannis is going to be like, I am going to be incredibly forceful in my way out of Milwaukee and I'm going to tell them what to do. As a matter of fact, I think if you were going to argue anything, I think you'd argue that we. We've seen signs of the opposite. Yeah, right.

Xena Keda (35:40)

That's what he told Sam Amic, that he would not be. That he's not that guy. He would not ever do anything like, yes, yeah, yes.

Fred Katz (35:46)

And maybe he won't. And. And it would be only human if Giannis were just like, vacillating back and forth. And some days we're like, maybe I do want to go somewhere else. And other days we're like, no, this is my home. And some days we're like, yeah, I really want to compete again, though. And it's like, it would be only human. That's not sure a reason to knock him. But even on his worst days, we've we haven't seen any sign that Giannis has said, I am going to completely and utterly screw the Milwaukee Bucks here.

Dave Defour (36:16)

Well, hopefully that doesn't happen before this podcast comes up, because that would kind of ruin the entire lecture from Professor Katz today. Fred Katz, thanks for hanging out guys. Go and read that Norm Powell story. Really, it's great. It's one of the reasons why Fred is one of the best at this because he gets these guys comfortable and they will pretty much say anything to him. Thanks to Fred Katz for hanging out. Thanks to Xena Keda as always. I'm Dave Defort. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.

Fred Katz (37:03)

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For that on cars.com with up to.

Fred Katz (37:09)

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Fred Katz (37:26)

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