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- [00:00]
Law Murray
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- [00:11]
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- [00:16]
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- [00:46]
Lost Fans
We're lost and kickoff's coming up. I don't want to miss the lineup. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the stadium.
- [00:56]
Local Guide / T-Mobile Advertiser
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree at this here road.
- [01:00]
Law Murray
Nah, I'm just kidding.
- [01:01]
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Let me get my phone out.
- [01:02]
Lost Fans
How is there signal out here?
- [01:04]
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- [01:16]
Lost Fans
Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?
- [01:20]
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- [01:47]
Dave DeFore
Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for May 18, 2026. I'm Dave DeFore here with Zena, Keda and La Murray. Coming up, we go deep on both of the conference finals and we talk about Detroit and Soda's upcoming off seasons. Good morning, everybody. Hey, Xena, welcome to the show. Murray, how are you, buddy?
- [02:14]
Law Murray
I feel good. It's a big week coming up here. We got the conference finals now.
- [02:18]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, we got the conference finals, but also, don't we have player tiers coming out this week? Law Murray.
- [02:25]
Law Murray
So full rollout. I am, I'm excited, but I'm also like. I feel like I just put in my. My finals you know what I'm saying? Like, these are my finals. Like, I've been looking at dudes all season long. I knew I had to do it this year. They gave me an extra month and so I need people to be about that.
- [02:46]
Dave DeFore
Yeah. Everybody go and check out Law's player tiers. They're going to be coming out all week. Obviously, in case you don't know, Law covers the Clippers for us over at the Athletic. He covered the Lakers for us this past season. He does the power rankings and he does the player tiers and I keep them up late on a Sunday night to talk about the conference finals that are coming up. Zeno. Hey, before we get to the conference finals, let's talk about the teams that just got sent home. And frankly, we'll, we'll start with the Detroit Pistons. This was an absolute, I don't know, Molly whopping. Like, what is the. What old school term for getting beat up? Can we use here? Xena.
- [03:27]
Zena Keda
Ooh, I love a good Mollywop. I love a good belt to a. You know, I know if we're allowed to. It is a kid's show, so.
- [03:33]
Dave DeFore
It is. Yeah, yeah, we don't want to bleep.
- [03:37]
Zena Keda
It was a good old beat down and we, but we all anticipated this. This is not surprising to us that you're looking at particularly game seven and, and at one point during the game, the offensive rating for the Cleveland Cavs is up in the 120s and Detroit's is down in the 80s. Like, this is exactly what we predicted and foreshadowed that Detroit would struggle to score, especially when the game slows down. And we sh. We knew that Cade Cunningham could not shoulder this test all by himself for an entire tube series now of being the main score. And you know, Law, you, you laid it out. This is something I've said before when you look at the main scoring opportunities outside of Cade Cunningham, sure, Tobias Harris had his moments throughout this series. We, we saw some, some snippets from folks. But Dennis Jenkins, a guy that was found money, he was not supposed to be the guy right beside Cade Cunningham was tasked with being the second best scorer with this team for Detroit in this series against Cleveland. And that showed you enough that Detroit had run out of gas. And that is not any sort of, you know, trying to make a pun on the fact that it's Detroit, it's Motor City. Well, they ran out the wheels thought turn, turn for them. And this summer they're going to have to address that.
- [04:57]
Law Murray
Yeah, I look at the. Just the spirit of how game seven went. And we, we talked about offensive struggles with the Pistons. We didn't talk about defensive struggles. We didn't talk about one team being so much more physical than Detroit and that team being the Cleveland Cavaliers, a team that, that created one of the best memes of the 2000s because of their lack of physicality and meeting the moment in a postseason setting. That's what I noticed. The Cavs hit those threes in the first quarter capped by Donovan Mitchell from the mid court logo. And when you play basketball and you defend and you give up shots, it does something to you, right? So this game was a nine point game. After Donovan hit that shot at the end of the first quarter. It would have been six if it missed like most mid court shots do. You can't even track individuals shooting those he's anymore. Because the NBA was like, we'll just put it a team thing. Just throw it up there. If you miss. We don't. We'll pretend like it never happened. Like, I feel like the, the Pistons didn't have the spirit to persevere after being down early and they got ran on. The whole game. I thought Jared Allen played like a dude who's been embarrassed before. Evan Moly played like a dude who's been embarrassed before. Like those dudes played with intent. And I didn't see a lot of intent from the Pistons to begin the game. And then I didn't see any fight after they were down. They didn't, they didn't really fight back. They might have fought back in terms of I see Sam Merrill, let me truck him in the lane. But other than that, that's about, that's about Detroit.
- [06:48]
Dave DeFore
That was the most shocking thing to me about the game because I mean, going into the series, one of my big keys was that the Pistons were going to be the tougher team. And by the time we get, we got through the series, I mean it really started a little bit earlier than game seven, I thought. I think we saw the Cavs not only get confident, but they, they never were shaken ever. Even when, like when James Harden's throwing the ball over the gym. Like they still got a great James Harden game out of him after that. Didn't have a good game seven. But it didn't matter because Donovan Mitchell was, was hot. Jared Allen in game Sevens is unstoppable. And again, they were the tougher team. And I just, I never expected that out of this Cavs team. And I just like you said, Pistons rolled over and never Quite fought back. And now they've got. This is a. I mean every single team, every single summer is like. This is a transformational summer for them potentially. And this is the summer that sets them up for the next five years. They've got a lot of decisions to make. They're going to probably, I'm assuming, look to upgrade Tobias Harris since he'll be a free agent. But the big question I think that everybody's got to ask and that they're going to be asking themselves, what are we doing about Jalen Duran? Like Law, I know you get this text. You've probably been getting this text all playoffs. How much money did he lose? I don't. I don't believe he's actually going to turn out to lose that much money, Dave.
- [08:12]
Law Murray
My friends don't text me about basketball.
- [08:17]
Zena Keda
Wow.
- [08:21]
Law Murray
Yeah, I'm a throw. I'm a. Except. Except the homies in Philly, but they definitely ain't talking about Duron. They still wondering what the heck happened to the Sixers.
- [08:28]
Mars Men Advertiser
But
- [08:31]
Law Murray
I got. I gotta shout out Cade for the fact that he led this team to a one seed. And with that shout out comes some hard things because Jalen Duran is a young center. I think we talked about it before, Dave, and you just don't want to play like that. The last time I'm pretty sure I compared it to Ayton. And you know what happened in Game 7 in 2022, one seed that won 60 plus games. They look like this at home and they were never the same again. Okay. The Phoenix Suns have won one playoff series since then and it was against a Clippers team that started a series without Paul George and ended it without Kawhi Leonard. I know because I was there. Don't play with this man. Like bigs are fragile. They're fragile when they come into league. I'm not even talking about physical, I'm talking about psychological. Okay. You have to support those guys and it's like you got to make the decision. You know what you have in him. I don't even think that's the big thing. I think you hit it earlier. Tobias Harris was your second leading reliable shot creator in a sense. And then after that you had to. Zena, you mentioned Dennis Jenkins started this year on a two way contract. He started his career undrafted. That is the guy who played 30 minutes in this game seven besides Keith Cunningham. That says a lot about your team. You used a fifth pick on Ron Holland and Ron Holland turned out to be unplayable before this series. Yeah, you use A top five pick on Jaden Ivy. And the less said about Jaden Ivy, the better. No disrespect to him, no disrespect to the guy he was traded for, but I'm not going to even mention the guy he was traded for. He didn't play tonight. And so that is where you're at with the Pistons. The fact that they were here is an accomplishment, but everything they do going forward, you have accelerated your timeline and you showed your cards and you're going to be taken seriously. And your team is not good enough to advance past this. And it does require the right kind of pieces, the right kind of talent, but also, you are so deep and you had so many guys contribute that that is fragile, too. Tobias Harris not being on this team next year would be pretty difficult because he was an adult in the room. He was a vet who could talk to these guys. I watched Katie Cunningham's team lose 68 games just two ago. Guys like Tobias, turn that thing around. That's the tough thing. That's why when you're in this moment, in this area of parody, it's not just everyone has an opportunity. It's also everyone has an opportunity to beat you. Specifically Detroit.
- [11:02]
Zena Keda
Honestly.
- [11:03]
Dave DeFore
Cooking.
- [11:04]
Zena Keda
He is cooking. I, I got lost in it. I'm thinking about, I'm just thinking about what to do for Detroit and, and what this means for Detroit. And I, it's funny because you can look at the team that they just lost to as a foil for what's potent, like, what possible for them. Cleveland was exactly this team kind of last year, right? Like, they, they also had players that did not show up and meet the moment. And I'm thinking about Jaylen Dura and I'm thinking about what Evan Mobley did, having a 10 point game against Indiana in game four before they end up going down in game five. I'm thinking about how, you know, Donovan Mitchell needed someone else beside him and they go get James Harden at, you know, at the trade deadline this year and that kind of raises the ceiling for them. That's exactly what Detroit needs to do now. They don't need to wait until the trade.
- [11:56]
Dave DeFore
Well, they needed to do it at this trade deadline, Zena, which we talked about, right? Like, where's the, where's the guy that's going to take the load off of Cade? And they just never did.
- [12:04]
Zena Keda
Exactly, exactly. So either way, it's just. But more than anything, I just feel like what I said about Cleveland as to why I believe that they were going to win this series is because they had a chip on their shoulder. There were multiple players that had something to prove. Evan Mobley needed to prove something. Donovan Mitchell needed to prove something. James Harden, yes, he had a bit of a dud game but that's fine. He for Game 7. But he did what he needed to do to get them to a Game 7. There's a lot of stars that needed something to prove and now Detroit has that. They now have this. We had a 60 win season. We weren't able to make it to the conference finals. We've got this chip on our shoulder and so I feel like I agree with you. I think Jalen Duran is absolutely, absolutely going to sign. I don't know that he's lost that much money. I think there's enough trust there for what he did in the regular season to get him to, you know, get him to where he wants to be contract wise. But now he's got a play like Evan Mobley where people don't think that he's a playoff riser. He's got something to prove.
- [13:00]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, tricky though if you're Detroit and you sign that deal and he's not a guy who can play playoffs. Let's, let's swing it to, to Minnesota. Unlike the end of the the Spurs Wolves game where Anthony Edwards went over and dapped up the spurs with about eight minutes left, everyone in Detroit like they all sat on the bench while, while they were being blown out Law. What do you think about the Timberwolves? Man, this team, it was designed in a lab to beat Nicola Jokic and the Denver Nuggets. They just made back to back conference finals. They, I mean you know, they push a really good spurs team to six games. It's probably really like five because the Wimy ejection game, I just feel like the spurs were going to win that game. The spurs solved them over the course of like the first three games of the series. Where do the Wolves go this summer? Like what is the first thing that they need to take care of?
- [14:00]
Law Murray
Well, I think the fun thing about Minnesota is I feel like they're one of the most relatable sports teams I've ever seen. Like from their star, from the, from the co star to the center who's brought in the star players like draft classmate, even the old head Mike Conley. Like, like that team like and shout out to John K. Because John K. Been covering that team forever and that region forever. And like when you read what he writes, like you feel what he's reporting and, and the players that he is bringing to you. And I think he's great. And I just think that, you know, Minnesota Timberwolves fans, they are super in touch with that team. Like Chris Finch, I gained. I already appreciated Chris Finch, but like, I really appreciated the fact that he can call out anybody and have a real pulse of his team, you know, saying that after they lost to the Nuggets in Game 1, that y' all lied and said y' all is going to be ready for the playoffs after all those unserious performances. I can't tell you how many times I watched the Timberwolves this season lose a home game on a Sunday night to a team that was beneath them. Right? And what the Timberwolves do and they've done over the last couple of years is they lose to a team in the playoffs and then they come back and they reaffirm that they are focused on beating that team. They lost to the Nuggets on the way to the Nuggets championship. And what has happened, they beat the Nuggets two out of three years, right? They lost to the Mavericks in the conference final as well. They didn't have to worry about the Mavericks after a while because the Mavericks decided to trade their star player for Anthony Davis. And then I really felt like after the Timberwolves lost to the Thunder in these conference finals that they built a team that was ready for the, for. For the Thunder. You saw all those regular season games went. You saw the attitude that was, you know, they were ready for them. They didn't get to them because they now have to spend an all season preparing to face a San Antonio team. And I thought the biggest difference between San Antonio and Minnesota is San Antonio had all that guard firepower and Anthony Edwards didn't have another dude who he could rely on, especially with what Dante was dealing with. Heck, even what Ant was dealing with, what I would assume was dealing with Mike Connolly's, you know, in the twilight of his career. It's hard and that's the biggest thing. Minnesota made everything so hard. Julius Randall probably shouldn't be your second best shot creator and you know that's. They talked about the moodiness and everything. It sounds like they trying to get joyous out the paint. That is your number one thing. You want to talk about what you do to flip up your offseason. How do you still compete knowing that McDaniels and Reed probably are ready to eat more and Julius Randle is probably going to be your biggest asset to figure out how to reshape, how you're playing basketball next year.
- [16:56]
Zena Keda
I think about the fact that Minnesota, we talk about the fact that they're built to build to beat Nikola Jokic and the Nuggets particularly. I don't, I don't know that they're built to win in the, in the west because every single team right now in the west has multiple weapons that they can utilize. And I'm, I'm just looking at some of the statistics around OH across okc, San Antonio, the teams that have found success and are on their way to the Western Conference finals compare in comparison to Minnesota. Right now, no one on Minnesota is averaging more than four assists a game or in the playoffs at least. Right. San Antonio has Stefan Castle, Dear and Fox already, that's two. And they're averaging six on average, both of them, six assists per game. So we're not even talking about ISO, you know, being able to score in an ISO situation, being able to score and create shots. This is just playmaking and being. You got two folks that can not only get to the rim, especially Stefan Castle, but they also playmaking. Then you look at their distribution in terms of shot creation and just shots between these two teams. With Minnesota, Anthony Edwards is the only person that's putting up at least 15 shots per per game and then also making seven. Okay. Then you look at what San Antonio was doing. They've got three players that are averaging about 15 shots per game. Thirteen shots per game. Thirteen Shots per game. De' Aaron Fox, Victor Emanyama and Stefan Castle, all of them are making at least seven field goals per game. It's the distribution in the West. OKC is the same way. There are multiple people that are putting up significant double digit shots and they're making enough field goals per game. That was never the case pretty much all season.
- [18:51]
Dave DeFore
Yeah.
- [18:51]
Zena Keda
For Minnesota, well, it was always.
- [18:53]
Dave DeFore
They had to wait until the playoffs. Zena to break the glass on Terence Shannon Jr. Who is exactly the type of player that they're missing. All those teams, you know, they have, they have at least three guys that could get two feet in the paint.
- [19:04]
Zena Keda
Correct. So we keep saying they can beat the Nuggets, but it's like they could. I don't think that they're at all ever built to be play in the West. And Jaden McDaniels, sure, we're getting a glimpse of what he could be capable of next year, but it was never enough from any of the supporting cast outside of Anthony Edwards. And the second that the spurs figured out how to trap, how to blitz Anthony Edwards get the ball out of his hands and figured out how to neutralize him. Minnesota never had a true answer, a consistent answer, and that's their biggest issue, is do you trust Jada McDaniels to be your true number two? Or do you go to the market and try to figure out what can you get for Julius Randall, what can you get to come in and handle this? And then if you really want to play in the west, you got to get some bigs that can answer the Wembanyama problem. And we're going to see what OKC can do with their two bigs against Wembanyama. And I'm very excited for that matchup of Chet Holmgren and Victor Weminyama. But Minnesota, to me, Rudy did great against Jokic. Outside of that, we haven't seen enough.
- [20:08]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, I mean, Wimby may not be his solvable problem. Right. Like, we don't know yet. But I. I like you. Very excited to see what the Thunder do. Guys, stick around after the break. We're gonna preview the conference finals.
- [20:23]
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- [20:33]
Law Murray
I really do.
- [20:34]
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- [21:27]
Law Murray
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- [22:41]
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- [22:48]
Zena Keda
You too.
- [22:48]
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- [23:11]
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- [23:41]
Zena Keda
Foreign.
- [23:48]
Dave DeFore
Okay, we've made it to the conference finals. Let's start with the east and break this down. We're going to have the New York Knicks versus the Cleveland Cavaliers. It's going to start Tuesday night. MSG with the way that the Knicks have been playing in the playoffs. You guys realize that they have a 20 plus 20 net rating in the playoffs. Absurd what they're doing on the offensive end. But what's what people are not realizing is that this team has actually been defending very well in the playoffs. Part of this is OG anunoby has been incredible. His status, we don't know yet. We don't know if he's going to be healthy for game one. I would assume because of the way that they treated his hamstring injury initially, like it was just day to day, that, that he's going to be ready to go. But we, we will find out. Xena, I'm going to start with you here. We just watched the Cavs go through two seven game series. We watched the Knicks have a pretty easy time with the Sixers. They've got the rest advantage. They're going to have home court advantage. How did the Cavs steal one in New York? What does it look like?
- [24:54]
Zena Keda
That's a really good question. Number one, Harden has got to step up. He has got to be a shot maker, a playmaker. He's got to get those deflections that we know him to be capable of. I think that's going to be incredibly huge. The way that Evan Mobley played against Jalen Duran and played against the Cavs in general. I mean, being one of the highest assist makers on this team, right, like he was physical, he played incredibly well in the dunker spot, he ran the floor, he shot outside. But particularly the physicality that he brought is going to be incredibly important for the Knicks. Being able to guard cat one on one, protect the rim, like that's going to, I think, change the equation for New York if he can do that. They got to clean up those turnovers like it's, it is, it's un, it's like inexcusable the way they were throwing the ball around in both series. If they clean that up and find a way to have some poise about them alongside Donovan Mitchell, starting out with poise, right, not taking this long, slow burn, playing like he did in Game seven and starting early, I think those are all the ways in which Cleveland finds a way to get some wins against a team like New York that's just offensively exploding right now.
- [26:14]
Dave DeFore
I'm glad you started with James Harden because Law, you know, you're our James Harden expert. I, I'd say, you know, you've, you covered him for a while. It is a huge James Harden series and it's because he's going to be the guy that I think dictates whether the Knicks can, can win this in five or whether the Cavs can push this to six or seven and actually have a chance to, in my opinion, steal. They're the underdogs, but I think his ability to put pressure on the rim and particular to get Carl Anthony Towns in foul trouble. That is the chess match. That's the key matchup to me.
- [26:52]
Law Murray
Yeah, I'm interested to see just who guards James in particular. These teams, they only face each other three times and they only face each other once post trade. And the guy who got the James Harden assignment for the most part in the February post trade deadline matchup was Josh Hart. And Josh Hart is good at a lot of things. Josh Hart probably shouldn't be guarding James Harden and like the level of aggression for James always comes down to how, how smart he is about, you know, being aggressive. Because James is the opposite of a lot of guys in the league who are really talented. You're not going to get a bad James Harding games because he took too many shots. You're going to get a bad James Harden game because of the turnovers or because of the complete absence of shots. That's where James is in this phase of his career. This is the first conference finals he is playing in in eight years and eight years ago he was literally the league's mvp. So this is a different setting for him. He is absolutely facilitator. First James is to the Cavs with Cat is to the Knicks. Right now we're seeing Cat throw the ball all over the lot. Picking cutters off and prioritizing setting up Jalen Brunson. What is James Harden doing? He's prioritizing getting Donovan his touches, getting his bigs, their touches at the rim and in the paint and getting all those shooters touches. It's almost like he comes last in all that. This is probably not the series to be doing that too much. I mean, yeah, you know, facilitate and run the half court offense, but the Knicks are a good defensive team. They're not a great defensive team. They will become a great defensive team. To your point Dave, as far as how long or short this series lasts, they will be a great defensive team if James Harden doesn't participate.
- [28:47]
ActiveCampaign Advertiser
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- [28:48]
Dave DeFore
Okay, who's the X factor in this series for each team? Give me one who is going to have, have themselves a game that will name after them.
- [28:57]
Zena Keda
Oh, it's easy for Cleveland I feel.
- [28:59]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, go ahead.
- [29:01]
Law Murray
Who you got? Who you got?
- [29:02]
Zena Keda
It's Max Druce to me. I mean not is it going to be a shooting aspect for him, but it's his, it's his hustle, it's his defense, it's his ability to be in as many plays, trying to blow things up, just being physical, being everywhere. He has been such a, I think what Jaylon Tyson was for this team throughout the regular season. We've kind of seen Max Druce come in, come back from his injury over the course of the last second half of the year and have such confidence in the way that he's playing. And I, for one, I don't know how many, you know, shout out to the Max Drew fans, okay, don't get on me for this, but he is so much more athletic than I anticipated him to be. Like, he's been everywhere for, for Cleveland and I think he's going to be the exact.
- [29:48]
Dave DeFore
Somebody asked him if he put on weight because of how, like, physical he was.
- [29:53]
Law Murray
Yeah, right.
- [29:54]
Dave DeFore
He looked so physical in that series. And the thing about the Knicks is that, you know, I. They've their defense and especially the guys that they have on the wings. I mean, Josh Hart, like we talked about, like, he's good, but you don't want him on James Harden, Mikhail Bridges, he's good, but he's not very physical. And this is where I think that the OG Anunoby hamstring issue is, is going to come into play because I do believe that he's going to have some time on Harden. Obviously, in a lot of switch scenarios, he's going to be on Harden. That's. That's to me like his hamstring. OG Anunoby's hamstring is my biggest X factor, I think, for the series, just because of how important he is. And it's on both ends too, because let's not forget that Guy puts up 25 a night for them in the playoffs. You know, like his scoring is absolutely important too. So that's mine.
- [30:40]
Law Murray
Law.
- [30:41]
Dave DeFore
What am I missing here?
- [30:42]
Law Murray
No, I think Xena, you know, I had a feeling she was going to say Max because we have some esp, but also the point, we're always going to talk about guys getting fatigued and Max Strus did not play until March and I think Max has his second win. I think Max is in a position where, you know, he knows his role, he knows this stage. He's been to conference finals twice before. You know, he was on a one seed and an eight seed that have been in the conference finals in Miami, like the rest of those jokers in Cleveland, not so much. But Max is not going to be rattled by what he's being asked to do on both ends of the floor. And that is he's going to shoot. He's going to give Cleveland another guy to throw on. Jalen Brunson, I thought Dean Wade was a decent guy. That that, that they could use. And I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny still messes around with his starting lineup just to get a feel for what's working and what's not working. That's a big thing when you're going up against Jalen Brunson is you got to give him different looks and different guys. And you know, I, I do think it's not the best thing that your best defenders are Dean Wade and, and, and, and Max, but screw it. Like that's what you got. And I think he's got to play well. You know, going to OG Real quick. OG is the Donovan Mitchell defender. And that's going to be the thing. It's like I really want to see how the Knicks line guys up because yeah, they have those apex wings, you know, and we can throw hard in that conversation if you, if you want to. He is a different body type and does different things, but they don't have the depth in terms of that. You know, I don't think really any, any team in the east does. But like that is going to be like someone's got to take care of Donovan and that's why the Knicks built the team that they, that, that they built to take care of. You know, make sure that they have 35 minute guys who can, who can do that job. And if OG can do that job, it definitely thins them out. Your next guys up are Miles McBride, who is like size as far as Donovan is concerned, and someone like Landry Shammit.
- [32:59]
Dave DeFore
Yeah. Jalen Brunson, is he going to be the best player in this series to you guys?
- [33:05]
Law Murray
He should be.
- [33:06]
Zena Keda
Right? It's going to be, it's going to be fun to see Donovan Mitchell try to go bucket for bucket with Jalen Brunson, which I think he's capable of. Absolutely.
- [33:15]
Law Murray
He needs to take it personal. We saw what happened three years ago, right?
- [33:19]
Zena Keda
Ooh, exactly. I think I, I didn't say my X factor for New York. I agree with you. I think OG and Anobi and particularly his health, we know that he didn't play those last two games against Philly. Whether he that helped, the fact that they ended so early, he gets some chance, you know, some time to rest if not OG to me, Mitchell Robinson. And it's mainly because Cleveland has, despite what we've talked about with Jalen Duran, we saw Paul Reed and we saw Beef Stew, Isaiah Stewart come in and do work on the glass for, for Detroit. They right now Cleveland is not averaging a great number when it comes to their opponent. Rebounds, and they're not averaging a great number when it comes to their second chance points, and the opportunities give up because of their rebounding. So I'm particularly thinking about Cleveland and their sec, whatever their second unit looks like, and Mitchell Robinson coming in and dominating the glass and just getting the Knicks extra opportunities. I think that's going to be a major X factor for them.
- [34:23]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, I think we'll see some Mitchell Robinson Cat minutes where they get to share time because of Mobley and Allen. Maybe to a certain degree. We'll see. But also, like, Cat at the five really puts the Cavs in a. In a tricky position on the defensive end. I mean, it's. That's not easy to guard. And it pulls, probably, I'm guessing, Mobley away from the. From the help spot, down near the basket. Then it becomes.
- [34:45]
Law Murray
Where.
- [34:46]
Dave DeFore
Where's Jared Allen?
- [34:48]
Law Murray
I'll say this. If, If. If I'm. If I'm Cleveland and I'm seeing. I'm seeing Cat where he's at. It's like Evan Mobley being. Being on Cats one thing, but Jared is a pest. There's one thing I was noticed because, you know, what does Jalen Duran like to do? Jalen Duran likes to get the ball, and he has his fun little behind, you know, between the legs, like Bible passes and whatnot. And then he likes to pivot and he likes to drive. Right. But the other thing is he likes to catch the ball out on the. On in the key area. Jared, what he does a really nice job of is he doesn't let you catch those passes easily. He's, like, nosy. Like, he's like Xena.
- [35:38]
Mars Men Advertiser
You.
- [35:38]
Law Murray
You remember, like, when you was learning shell drills and you. If you had a coach who was like, up the line, you know.
- [35:45]
Zena Keda
Oh, yeah,
- [35:48]
Law Murray
that was up the line. And I feel like.
- [35:52]
Zena Keda
And he's long enough to track you while he's still in that line. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah.
- [35:57]
Law Murray
And. And so he moves.
- [35:58]
Dave DeFore
He moves well enough to. To drop back, too. So, like. And the thing with Cat is that he's so susceptible to those off, especially the bad ones, where he's just kind of falling over with the shoulder down. I mean, even in the playoffs, as good as he's been, he's still been in real foul trouble. And I do think there's something to that, man, maybe Jared Allen is the guy. All right, guys, let's make our picks law. You want to go first?
- [36:24]
Law Murray
Yeah. I said in October that the Knicks would be in the NBA Finals, and I Also was saying as I was watching the Pistons demolish the Knicks all year long, that the Knicks would really appreciate somebody taking care of the Pistons for them. That is what happened in Game 7 in Detroit. The Knicks got off very easy here, and, you know, I think this is going to be a long series, but I do. I expect the Knicks to win this series in six and get to the NBA Finals.
- [36:56]
Zena Keda
Oh, dang. This is gonna be really boring. I'm also Knicks in six, and mine is fully based on Cleveland has played two game sevens, including a game seven that just happened last night. And so Knicks having days of rest and they've been watching the film. I think Cleveland's legs are gonna look real different by games 5 and 6. So they're gonna close it out in 6.
- [37:25]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, it is boring. Nixon 6. I. I'm also. Listen, I want to say Nick Sweep, just because of, you know, what we've been watching from them. And I re. Watched some of the stuff from the Sixers over the weekend, and I really, I like what they're doing, but this Cavs team has been resilient, and I just don't. I don't think that they're gonna give up the ghost. They. They play well in Cleveland. We know James Harden's gonna have a couple of bad games, but he's going to have at least one good game in there. He does it every playoff series. And Donovan Mitchell, you know, Zena, to your point, if you wanted to go bucket for bucket with Jalen Brunson, are there five guys that you would name before you got to Donovan Mitchell? Like, I do feel like, especially in these bigger moments, you think about him playing in New York and the way that he tends to, you know, meet those moments.
- [38:15]
Zena Keda
So I got to give a quick shout out to Ian Eagle with that end of first quarter shot that Donovan Mitchell made, calling it a spider bite. I was like, oh, okay with the word play. I like that.
- [38:30]
Law Murray
His best since he said jawbreaker.
- [38:34]
Zena Keda
Yeah, I like spider bite. I was like, I want more of those. That's fun.
- [38:38]
Dave DeFore
All right, guys, the moment we have all been waiting for all season long. A rematch of the NBA cup semifinals between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the San Antonio Spurs. This is one of the biggest playoff series since I've been doing this. So, like in the, in the last 10 years, I can't think of a playoff series off the top of my head that I've been more excited about.
- [39:07]
Law Murray
Law.
- [39:08]
Dave DeFore
Look, man, you. You laid this out to me. The historic nature of. Of these great teams meeting up to 60 plus win teams. Break it down for me, like just how. How big of a deal this series is.
- [39:21]
Law Murray
Yeah. First of all, shout out to you for mentioning NBA Cup. The Orlando Magic were literally a 31 lead away from making is possibly 4 of all 4 of those teams in Vegas making it to the conference finals. Oh, that's crazy.
- [39:36]
Zena Keda
Call out.
- [39:36]
Dave DeFore
It just means more.
- [39:38]
Law Murray
That's crazy. It really did. It really did. And so 62 win Team San Antonio spurs. And then you had the thunder winning 64. And you know, we do have a 60 win team out in Detroit. But over in the west, we have not seen a one seed and a two seed meet in the conference finals since 2018. And that series wins seven. And a certain home team missed 27 threes in a row. And that was how that was decided. A hamstring was involved. A shimmy shimmies, your dual shimmies and whatnot. That was a classic series and this one might top it. Like there, there's animosity built in because of. They try to, you know, have Shett vs. Wemby before the spurs were ready. The spurs weren't ready then. And I don't think Shet was really ready then. Both of those zoos are ready now. I don't know if you want to get to the MVP part of this, Dave, go ahead.
- [40:45]
Dave DeFore
Why not?
- [40:46]
Law Murray
I know spoiling MVPs is. Is frowned upon. That's what I learned from the telecast today.
- [40:52]
Dave DeFore
The NBA released it. So I think at this point we're not spoiling anything.
- [40:57]
Law Murray
I ain't talking about that, Dave. Yeah, yeah. To get this back on the rails. Like, I remember how David Keem lajuan reacted to Dave Robinson winning that MVP award. What was that 1995 conference finals, huh?
- [41:14]
Dave DeFore
94.
- [41:15]
Law Murray
And that was 90. I'm pretty sure that was 95.
- [41:19]
Dave DeFore
You might. You're probably right, Law.
- [41:22]
Law Murray
Yeah. And so like, let me. I'm. I'm just saying, man, like, Wemby is one of the most, like, he reminds me of MB when it comes to understanding the situation that he's in from a competitive standpoint, from a narrative standpoint. And Joel unfortunately never was on teams and he was never physically consistently right enough to be on the stage that Wemby is already at. But that being said, Wemby is also even more physically extraordinary than Joel is. And that's saying something, that everything is taken up a notch. The competitiveness, the quality of the teams, the, the, the fact that they're both this good. We have not seen two teams win at least 62 games, meet in any playoff series in the 21st century. And we are deep enough into the 21st century where that should mean something. You know, everything you need to be looking forward to this matchup is right there. The fact that the Thunder are defending champions and the spurs beat them repeatedly. They beat them in three states, Dave. Like, it's hard to do. You gotta be special to do that, you know, let's go to Vegas so I can handle you there, you know,
- [42:38]
Dave DeFore
but let's not forget Jalen Williams, J Dub coming back. All right, so the Thunder, full health. And now the Thunder. Xena. Look, They've got Jared McCain coming off the bench. They got A.J. mitchell cooking. I mean, they have dudes. And look, we've been saying this about this Thunder team for a couple years now, right? Like, they just have so many guys, they never stop. And the spurs are on their way to that. They're not there yet, though.
- [43:04]
Zena Keda
Yeah.
- [43:04]
Dave DeFore
And so I, I think that like, I mean, obviously the Thunder have been the best team in basketball for like three years running. this point, they're the favorites in the series. Who's the best player? Is it going to be Shea or is it going to be Wemby? That's the, that's who wins the series. That's it. Who has the better series between those two guys?
- [43:26]
Zena Keda
Your definition of best is going to be important here. I personally think SGA will be the best player from the perspective of not only his ability to create and score his own points and contributions, his ability to set up his teammates, but then also the poise and leadership because he's been there before and when he comes off the floor and you know, if, if the spurs going to run, what SGA is going to provide in those timeouts, what he's going to provide to his young players like Jerry McCain, like AJ Mitchell. His ability, even when SGA doesn't, isn't capable of providing something. His attention and the gravity that he pulls is going to be so crucial for what AJ Mitchell will be able to get the lanes that will open up for his other players on the floor. So I, from that perspective, I think that SJ will be the best player, I believe that we saw and shout out to the Lakers for giving us that last game in their series. You know, five point win for okc. A, a classic game, but you got, you got to see a little bit of how the junk defense can rattle okc. But if anything, what that that game showed us was that the depth of OKC is Unmatched. Right. Like they. Everything that JJ Redick, an amazing coach, threw at okc, they just absorbed.
- [44:56]
Dave DeFore
To be fair though, the Lakers didn't have the players that the Spurs.
- [44:58]
Zena Keda
That's true.
- [45:00]
Dave DeFore
I do think that, that the way the Lakers guarded Shay will be instructive for the spurs and they're going to be able to do it with better guys.
- [45:08]
Zena Keda
Agreed. And. But that's, but that's my point, right, Is that they, the way they guarded Shay was great. And they still were able to find A.J. mitchell. They were still able to get timely threes out of Jerry McCain. And remember, I know Luka wasn't there. Jalen wasn't there for okc. And so that you cannot underestimate just how big that is for not only what Jalen provides individually, but the duo of Jalen Williams and sga. So ultimately for me, you have a. You have an OKC team that didn't have Jalen Williams and swept the Lakers. You insert Jalen Williams back into this mix. SGA is on a. You know, he's on the tear that he is. This team has not lost the playoff game yet. I think it unlocks another level. And that's scary as hell for the spurs, period.
- [46:02]
Law Murray
Yeah, I gotta, I gotta say this about, about the Lakers series. They overloaded on Shay in ways that were just easy to pick off. And San Antonio doesn't have to do that for two reasons. Number one, I just feel like we mentioned that the players are better, but they have Wemby. You don't have to be overreacting. You don't want to put yourself in scramble situations. San Antonio, and this is, to me, the biggest factor in this entire series. San Antonio does not bow. They defend without fouling better than every team in the NBA. And the Thunder are not A lot of these teams. The people who are sensitive to the Thunder and their ability to draw, it's one guy, right? She's the only player on that team that draws fouls at a high rate. Everybody else just drives by you or they make their shots that are created for them. Shay's the only guy who is a quote unquote, free throw merchant on their team. Like you don't have multiple Jalen Williams. I love Jalen Williams. Jalen Williams is driving by you or pulling up in the midi. He's not getting to the line at a higher rate. Shet's not getting to the line at a high rate. Their bigs aren't dunking on you. Isaiah Artenstein is trying to hit the floater and Jalen Williams is spaced out as far as possible. Like that is a factor. Like Wemby is going to be where Wemby is and the spurs defenders know it. That is a huge advantage for them. They don't have to overreact to Shay in the slightest and that means the ball is going to be in front of them. Now the spurs have a huge weakness defensively and that is they don't force turnovers. And the Thunder are the best team in the NBA. See, people look at the Thunder offense and it's like they have a guy who draws a lot of that dude doesn't turn the ball over. That dude is the best 30 point scorer I've ever seen. As far as a floor is concerned. He doesn't have the highest ceiling ever. I would argue he has the highest floor ever and he's got two MVPs to validate that. And by floor, I mean shot selection and turnovers. He does not turn the ball over. If this is a possession game, I'm interested to see how it goes. And I think what we saw in the NBA cup and what we're going to see in this conference finals is going to be determined by how can those guys, those other non shade guys get their offense going when they're playing against a defense that won't overreact in terms of jumping passing lanes and doubling a guy and waiting and seeing what happens in the paint if they do get there?
- [48:41]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, I listen Wimby, is this, this luxury that you have to figure out like they're going to have to solve for right, like the spurs that it must be amazing to have a guy who can literally cover the entire inside of the three point line. That just unprecedented in NBA history. If you're the Thunder, you've had all season to think about this. How do you get Wimby out of the lane? Like how are they going to keep him away from the basket? How are they going to drive him out of the lane? I mean we watched what Minnesota did. I thought in game one where they just continuously attacked, obviously when he had 12 blocks. But that's great. Make him get 15. Wear him out. To me that is what the Thunder ought to be doing. You mentioned Hardenstein and Chet. This is a huge series for them, especially Hardenstein. I think his ability to be physical with Wemby, Xena, look you, you played in the post, right? You want to get to the basket. If you've got a good rim protecting center, what's your job as a big.
- [49:40]
Zena Keda
I mean that's the thing Chet is going to have to ensure that when his shot is going to be blocked at some point that he doesn't resort. Resort to let me just go outside and put a three up right, right. That he doesn't go, all right, let me just do a turnaround jumper at the free throw line extended, because I don't want to go inside and be physical. He's going to have to be in the dunker spot, be ready for the drives and kicks and dump offs. He's going to have to get through the paint, which we've seen him do before, especially against the spurs. We've seen him do that, but he. Towards the end of the game, he'll get fatigued having to go up against that and hasn't necessarily always been consistent with that. So it's definitely gonna be a little bit of that. Isaiah Hartenstein in that floater game, he's gonna have to go at it like, and just accept that it might get blocked a few times, but keep going. Law, you call out a really good point. And as you've been sitting here thinking about it, I've been trying to rack my mind of like, it's true that we've seen Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper and Deanne Fox and all these guards on the perimeter be very mature in the way that they guard the gaps and not over helping and not, you know, or being intentional about their blitzes or their traps or whatever. But this is also a different stage, right? Like, I just feel like this now means a little bit more. And now I'm wondering, will Stefan Castle be as disciplined if he sees SGA going through, barreling through the paint, will he be. Will Dylan Harper, a rookie, be as discipline on the wing as he sees? I don't know who might be Lou Dort trying to, you know, bait him into a three like you. I don't know what's gonna, what it's gonna look like for these first year, second year players on, on San Antonio. But more than anything, when it comes to being physical for, against Wemby, Chet's been there before, right? Isaiah Hartenstein, they've been there before. All these players on okc, they've been there before. And so I feel like they're gonna, they're gonna meet the moment in a different way. I still can't convince myself though, that OKC is gonna just win this outright. And that's what's so fun about the Western Conference versus the Eastern Conference. It is all season long. It's almost as if we flip the narratives Right. The Eastern Conference during the regular season was what the conference that's wide open. Anyone can win it. Anyone can take it. And now you go into the Eastern Conference finals and you're walking in with the Knicks who have had an NB record or NBA record of 180 point differential coming into the series and you're just like.
- [52:14]
Law Murray
And you gotta throw that away. If you. The Knicks. Right, Right.
- [52:17]
Zena Keda
Yeah.
- [52:18]
Law Murray
You got a whole, you got a whole new thing coming now.
- [52:20]
Zena Keda
You got a whole new thing coming. But it feels different versus OKC and San Antonio. This feels like it's wide open now. Right? Like it feels like we don't know what's going to happen.
- [52:32]
Dave DeFore
This series is going to come down to. In my opinion, it's one thing beyond just who the best player is. And I think that this ties into that. Can San Antonio shoot? Well, Steph Castle, they're going to dare him to shoot like we just saw him and he, he hit. What happens if he misses? Will he keep shooting when he's left wide open? Right. These are the sort of questions, Zena, to, to follow up on your point. This is where the Thunder have didn't been those dudes already, right? Like they were those dudes who, they couldn't hit shots. They've now solved for that, right? Like they know how to handle a zone. They know how to handle when the double team comes for Shay. Like they, they've learned all these lessons over the course. I think of the last 18 months
- [53:12]
Law Murray
especially it's the privilege of a championship and it's also the privilege of what happened two years ago. So over the weekend after the spurs close out Minnesota, I, I conceded that this spurs team is ahead of where the 2024 Thunder were. And maybe people are confused by that because people are sensitive and they always think it's something about hating and ain't hating. 2024 Thunder were the number one seed and they were barely the number one seed. They didn't get that one seed until the last day of the regular season. But they were the one seed in a very tightly contested race in the west that involved the defending champion Denver Nuggets and an ascending Minnesota Timberwolves team. And they were ahead of schedule. And we knew they were ahead of schedule because in a, in one of the closest series you will ever see, they lost in six to the Dallas Mavericks, a team that wound up going to the NBA finals that year. And so the spurs just got done a first round series with a Portland team that was the worst team in the League at controlling the basketball. They just finished against a Minnesota Timberwolves team that during and especially after the biggest feedback. The thing that they debriefed the most out of the Minnesota exit interviews was how they were not always disciplined, how they were moody, how they didn't always appear to be assignment sound despite their experience. You are now going against an Oklahoma City team that defines poise and defines discipline in a way that they already had character wise, but they have burnished it through the playoff runs. That was a failure two years ago in some regards and obviously a championship, a championship won with Game 7 victories, by the way. It's not like they cakewalked last year after they got done with the remains of the Memphis Grizzlies. That is going to be the test for San Antonio because San Antonio is now going up against a team that will not beat themselves. Minnesota, they can beat you. Oh, we know they can beat themselves. Portland. Happy to be there. That's how I felt looking at them. I'm like, y' all were the top seven all season and y' all stole that thing from the Phoenix Suns. That again, it's not just basketball from a skill standpoint, it's basketball from a how do you respond? Standpoint.
- [55:34]
Zena Keda
Yeah, that's. Yeah.
- [55:35]
Dave DeFore
Look, the playoffs are between the ears so often, right? Like it's Kate Cunningham, some of these awful turnovers, right, like in. In the worst moments. Those are things that I think he's going to think about all summer long. I think the Thunder, right, they thought about that, that loss to Dallas and clearly, like, they got better. They thought about the fact that the Pacers pushed into seven last year and why they were able to push them to seven because they went out and they solved for that all season long. And now you've got this lightning in a bottle a little bit with the San Antonio spurs. And I don't. This is the next five years of the NBA. I hope everybody enjoys it because this is what we're going to be looking forward to every year. This is the first of what I assume is going to be multiple conference finals between these two teams over the at least the next three years. I think we're going to see this at least one more time. Let's make our picks, guys. This is tough. This is really tough because I picked the spurs to go to the Finals. I picked it. You know, I said that they could be a title team back at the NBA cup, but I have been watching this Thunder team just smoke everybody and it doesn't matter if they're at full health or not, and Shea is the best player in the world. And I am sitting here, guys, beside myself. That's why I'm going to go last because I got to see what y' all pick. So Xena go first. I may well go first last time.
- [56:56]
Zena Keda
Okay. I'm. I'm going to go OKC in seven.
- [57:03]
Study.com Advertiser
Wow.
- [57:03]
Zena Keda
And I'm going to. I'm going to base it mainly on. I'm going to go against. I think, Law, you said that San Antonio doesn't foul. Right? And that's fair, I think. Is that what you said? I just want to make sure I said that right.
- [57:17]
Law Murray
Yeah. They. They were the number one team in the league and opponent. Free throw temporary.
- [57:21]
Zena Keda
Okay, I. That's changed a little bit in the playoffs. They have. They've been foul a little bit. Um, and they've been pretty physical with teams, I think, as they try to establish themselves in this period of the year. So I think that's actually gonna get them in trouble the way that we're seeing. Like, you know, we saw the. We saw the neck check. Okay. That's a thing. We saw the neck check. I think that as they try to really impose themselves, it might get them in trouble from a fouling perspective. And I think OKC is going to lean into that. I think they saw that. They've been watching film on that, and they're going to try and get them in trouble from a physicality perspective. And I'm going to choose that. OKC will take it in seven.
- [58:07]
Dave DeFore
All right. Law.
- [58:09]
Law Murray
Yeah. I had it written multiple times in multiple places on the website that this is being presented on. So I do have the thunder. And Xena, you got to go first, just like I got first in the ECF prediction. And I said what you're going to say. I'm going to say what you said. It's going to be seven will be played on May 30, and I do not intend to have plans on that particular Saturday night. The SNL season is over. I will only be doing podcasts. Actually, that's not true. I will be having a SNL pod a week from today. But besides that, there's no more SNL podcast.
- [58:56]
Dave DeFore
Law, please.
- [58:57]
Law Murray
Yeah, yeah.
- [58:57]
Dave DeFore
Saturday Night Live podcast that you do.
- [59:00]
Law Murray
Saturday Night Network. Those are the homies over there. Okay. Yeah, yeah, we'll be breaking down season 51, but as far as the 2026 NBA season, the 80th, I believe I. I believe that this will go to a game 72 Saturday nights from now. You Know, enjoy your Memorial Day weekend or whatever you're going to do there. But, you know, the Saturday after, pitch a tent. Like, I believe that this will come down to that. I just feel like there's so many different ways that these teams can beat each other. We saw a lot of them from the spurs already. I think when you're a defending champ, you're motivated by what you can do to validate that championship, something nobody has done in the 2020s, but you're also motivated by someone who could beat you and this. And, and the Thunder are not going into this series with a lack of a great term that Greg Popovich told us. And that is, you know, appropriate fear. Like they had it and they've had it early. And I think that's a privilege because a lot of these defending champions, you know, you go into a playoff series, like, you know, say the 2024 Denver Nuggets, and it's like, ain't no way. There's a way. OKC knows it, and I think that will be a difference maker, even if it takes seven games to figure it out.
- [60:16]
Dave DeFore
Well, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw a curveball then for you guys.
- [60:20]
Zena Keda
Okay?
- [60:21]
Dave DeFore
I'm sticking with the Spurs.
- [60:22]
Zena Keda
Okay. How many games?
- [60:25]
Dave DeFore
I think spurs and 6. I just think Victor Winmanyama is unsolvable right now.
- [60:31]
Zena Keda
Okay.
- [60:32]
Law Murray
As much as you just have to get him ejected or injured.
- [60:36]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, good luck with that. Barring those two things, I, I just think this spurs team feels like a title team. And as and the Thunder are a title team. I'm not taking it away from them. Victor. Women. Yama is just something we haven't seen yet. We don't even know what his ceiling is. I don't, I mean, I, I think we're watching him get better over the course of this playoffs. Getting smarter. I think that the team is getting smarter about how they use him, especially on the offensive end, where he is not nearly the dominant player that he is on the defensive end, but he is an all star level offensive player. Already feels like the spurs are going to be crowned. Guys. I, I, I think that they're gonna, they're gonna win the West. I think they're gonna do it in six. And I'm flying to OKC in the morning, so if anybody sees me on the plane, don't, don't give me too much of a hard time for that. All right, guys, that's gonna do it for the show. LA Murray. The legendary Law Murray. Everybody go and check out his player tiers all week. Leave him some nice comments in his articles because the guy works really hard and he does amazing work. This was a fun show for Law Murray and Cena Keda. I'm Dave Dufour and this has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us. Thanks for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe or Follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed it, drop a like, leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us.
- [62:21]
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- [63:36]
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