Champions crowned, but what's next for both finalists?

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily — Champions crowned, but what's next for both finalists?

Date: June 15, 2026
Hosts: Dave DeFore, Zena Cata, Ben (Esfandiar Baraheni)

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Episode Overview

This “Championship Hangover” edition dives into the aftermath of the NBA Finals between the New York Knicks and San Antonio Spurs. Hosts reflect on how the Finals played out, what each team revealed about themselves, and speculate on each franchise’s next steps moving forward. With humor and candor, the crew analyzes what they and the basketball world underestimated or misread, why New York triumphed, San Antonio’s missed opportunities, and what each finalist needs to prioritize in the off-season.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Knicks' Triumph & What the Hosts Got Wrong

Timestamps: 02:46–06:54

• The panel admits they all predicted “Spurs in 7” and own up to their underestimation of the Knicks’ mental resilience and cohesion.
• Zena Cata: “What we dramatically underestimated was the Knicks’ resolve … their ability to, despite whatever circumstance, come back to some sort of identity.” (04:04)
• The group notes that months before the playoffs, many questioned the Knicks’ identity, which likely colored their expectations.
• On the Spurs side, they acknowledge being swept up in “the inevitability of the Spurs”—believing their poise and recent upsets would carry them.
• The psychological evaluation, not just stats, was the main blind spot in predictions.

2. The Spurs’ Collapse: Resilience and Veteran Leadership

Timestamps: 06:54–13:12

• The Knicks showed uncanny resilience: 3-1 when coming back from 15+ points down in the playoffs (Rest of NBA: 6–58).
• Knicks “captured the magic of basketball,” both statistically and emotionally, resonating with their city and their roster.
• Key missed attribute for Spurs: Lack of a vocal, authoritative leader to steady the ship in crisis.
  • Dave DeFore: “I do not think the Spurs would have lost this series if Chris Paul was on this team.” (10:47)
  • Emphasis on needing someone like Chris Paul or Andre Iguodala to get in teammates’ faces and “snap them out of it”—the kind of guidance not offered by their existing veteran signings.
• Spurs coach Mitch Johnson criticized for being too locked into his gameplans, e.g., not giving Dylan Harper a more prominent role.

3. The Importance of Playoff-Composed Veterans & “The Magic Ingredient”

Timestamps: 13:11–16:35

• Most recent champions have continuity and execute timely veteran trades for playoff-tested steady hands.
  • Examples: Thunder’s Alex Caruso & Isaiah Hartenstein; Celtics’ Derrick White/Al Horford; 2019 Raptors’ Gasol, Kawhi, Danny Green.
• Spurs haven’t made that key veteran addition (or “swing trade”) yet.
• Zena: “The Spurs didn’t have that. They also haven’t made that trade yet.” (14:44)
• Debate over who filled the “steadying” role for the 2019 Raptors (Gasol, Kawhi, Danny Green, VanVleet’s energy).

4. Spurs’ Offseason Outlook: What’s Missing?

Timestamps: 17:00–29:24

• Spurs must add a specific type of talent: A combo forward who can shoot, defend, and provide veteran presence.
• Identified needs:
  • Floor-spacing, shot-taking 4 man to play next to Wemby.
  • Someone who can absorb offensive workload and help Wemby “rest while on the floor.”
• Names floated (free agents & trade targets):
  • Tobias Harris (free agent): “Would fit the four spot, take shots, rebound, stretch the floor.” (24:51)
  • Daniel Gafford, P.J. Washington, Bobby Portis, Naji Marshall (trade targets)
  • Longer-shot trade scenarios: Jabari Smith Jr. & Tari Eason (from Rockets), Pascal Siakam (Pacers), though deals could be unlikely.
• Internal options: Carter Bryant’s improvement as a potential starter, but possible size/flexibility issues.
• Consensus: Spurs’ challenge is fitting the right type of player alongside Wemby and Harper, especially a true floor-spacing forward.

5. Knicks Offseason Questions & A Model for Competitive Teams

Timestamps: 29:24–37:11

• Notable stat: Jalen Brunson (Finals MVP) is only the 47th highest-paid player in the NBA (“crazy value contract”).
• Key expiring contracts: Mitchell Robinson, Landry Shamet, possibly Jordan Clarkson — expectation is that Knicks will pay to retain most or all.
• Main theoretical need: An upgrade at the “3” slot — especially a wing who is a willing shooter to relieve offensive logjams.
  • Critique of Josh Hart’s reluctance to shoot despite many positives (“offense can bog down by his unwillingness … one reason offense can stagnate” 31:42)
• Jalen Brunson’s supporting ballhandlers, e.g. Jose Alvarado’s rise, secondary playmaker importance, and speculation about Tyler Kolek growing into that job.
• Concern: Do they have enough big man depth, especially after KAT’s foul trouble? Suggestion for another physical big, but not a major overhaul.

6. Can the Knicks Repeat or Make the Finals Again?

Timestamps: 35:00–37:51

• Dave: “No.—because of what history has told us.” Notes no team since the Warriors has truly dominated with repeat Finals wins.
• Zena & Ben: Cite precedent of Celtics and Thunder: constantly competitive, but rarely repeat-punching through. Also, injury risk and general league parity.
  • “It’s just a lot harder to win back-to-back” (36:50)
  • Possible Knicks comp: The 2004 Pistons, who consistently made the conference finals but only won once.

7. 2027 NBA Prediction Game

Timestamps: 38:33–41:31

• Fun closing segment: “Who will win in 2027, given the 8 champions in 8 years trend?”
  • Ben: Spurs are the boring but likely answer due to their sustainable approach and being “at least a year early” as finalists.
  • Dave & Zena: Suggest Timberwolves as a continuity-driven up-and-comer.
  • Dark horses: Cavaliers (“if they figure out the summer”), Pistons.
  • Note about looming big trades (e.g., Giannis possibly moving, but unlikely to either finalist).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What we dramatically underestimated was the Knicks’ resolve … their ability to, despite whatever circumstance, come back to some sort of identity.”
  — Zena Cata (04:04)
• “I do not think the Spurs would have lost this series if Chris Paul was on this team.”
  — Dave DeFore (10:47)
• “Every single champion over the last eight years has had one continuity to a couple of, like, big swing trades… veteran guys who have been there … to ease the storm.”
  — Zena Cata (13:26)
• “The hardest thing in the NBA is actually to make the finals, not even to win it. It’s really hard to just get back.”
  — Ben (21:06)
• “Jalen Brunson, now Finals MVP, and he’s the 47th highest paid player in the NBA.”
  — Zena Cata (29:57)
• “If Chris Paul was still on this bench, I feel like things would have been a little bit extended at least.”
  — Dave DeFore (11:28)
• “Eight different champions in eight years… There’s a bit of a throughline: continuity and the veteran mentality.”
  — Zena Cata (13:16)

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Summary Table of Key Offseason Needs

| Team | Main Needs | Example Targets/Ideas | |------|-------------|----------------------| | Spurs | Floor-spacing 4, playoff-tested vet, vocal leader | Tobias Harris, P.J. Washington, Daniel Gafford, Bobby Portis, Naji Marshall, “Chris Paul-type”| | Knicks | Retain core free agents, add big wing shooter, secondary ballhandler, more big man depth| Keep Shamet, Robinson, maybe Clarkson; target backup 3&D or combo forward; develop Tyler Kolek |

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Episode Tone & Style

• Playful, self-deprecating humor about wrong predictions (“Gear,” “Spurs in 7 men” now wearing Knicks shirts), easy, engaging banter.
• Analytical but approachable — the hosts hit both eye-test and stat angles (“70% of series Spurs led,” “3-1 in 15+ point comebacks,” contract rankings).
• Candid about their misses and the unpredictability inherent in modern NBA parity.
• Regular friendly back-and-forth; open to “hot takes” balanced by thoughtful breakdown.

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Conclusion

This episode masterfully breaks down the Finals aftermath, blending fun with genuine insight. The Knicks’ culture and closing ability are praised as the difference-maker, while the Spurs’ lack of a disciplinary, vocal playoff vet is identified as their Achilles’ heel. Both finalists’ off-season moves are examined, with specific targets proposed for areas of need. The crew closes with entertaining speculative picks for next season, underlining NBA unpredictability and the value of both continuity and timely change.

“Congratulations to the Knicks. Knicks fans, enjoy the celebration!”
— Ben (41:34)

Transcript

[Dave DeFore]

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[Ben]

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[Dave DeFore]

Y' all should be ashamed.

[Ben]

What?

[Dave DeFore]

For those of you who are not watching on YouTube, you will not be able to see the fact that both of these men, these spurs and seven men have Knicks shirts on for this hung Hangover show. You are indeed hungover because.

[Ben]

What?

[Dave DeFore]

Wow.

[Zena Cata]

Empire stately.

[Dave DeFore]

The tables have turned. This is crazy gear, y'. All. Gear.

[Ben]

Yeah. Hey, listen, you know more where this came from?

[Zena Cata]

I could switch at halftime if we want to.

[Ben]

I am of a certain age where the majority of the T shirts and stuff I wear are free. And that was the most important thing about this Knicks finals T shirt. It was free shout out to the Knicks. How about. How about that, guys?

[Zena Cata]

Dave is wearing the shirt from the Knicks only loss in the finals.

[Ben]

That's right.

[Zena Cata]

I wonder if this is a little bit of saltiness on him, his part.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay, it balances out. It balances out. I just want to give you guys props. The post game show yesterday or this. Yeah, yesterday. That you guys, really amazing show. You guys did a great job of just recapturing everything from this entire playoff series. Obviously, with the numbers, the stats, the. The moves that coaches made did not make just the way that the Knicks were the better team in different ways. I mean, Dave, I was with you in the sense of, yes, all three of us said spurs and seven. And when, you know, you kind of recoiled at the idea that we were wrong. Yeah, we were wrong by what happened. End result. But that was like the biggest thing that, you know, I had some takeaways as I was looking at the game and the way all these things played out. That was the biggest thing that I kept thinking of is like, you aren't wrong if you predicted that the spurs could win this series, because they absolutely could win this series. What I think what we dramatically underestimated was the Knicks resolve and their ability to, despite whatever circumstance they found themselves in at any point in the game, to be able to come back to some sort of identity, some. Their. Some established sense of consistency. And I understand why we underestimated it, because it wasn't just months before the playoff started that we were like, who are the Knicks? What are they about? So I don't think that, you know, if you did, if you underestimated. I know I did. I don't blame you. What we also grossly overestimated was the spurs result.

[Zena Cata]

The inevitability of the Spurs.

[Dave DeFore]

Absolutely, yes. And the inevitability of the Spurs. But I would say even more so than the inevitability of the spurs, their mental resilience. We were fed the stories of the monks with Wemby, and we were fed the stories of, you know, these guys don't know any better. And we saw the results of that. It's not as if we were just like going off of the propaganda. No, we saw the results of these guys Doing things that you weren't supposed to do, including right before this series, taking down the reigning champs in a tough matchup with the reigning champs. And so I was in the same boat with, you know, like, did we get it wrong? No, I think what we really got wrong was really evaluating these teams psychologically. And I'm very curious as to what's going to happen for the spurs next year and what they're doing right now to regroup and what they're going to do from now until then to regroup. Because as you guys mentioned, it takes a long time to get back. It is not an inevitable situation. And that was the biggest thing I would, I would take away from that. I was thinking about yesterday was like, we weren't wrong. We just didn't think that the second halves would go the way they did.

[Ben]

I think we discount it. We, we kind of underestimated the Knicks a little bit and you know, we talked about their ability to finish games.

[Dave DeFore]

No, no, because I just mean 45 of 94 points came from one man.

[Ben]

Yes. And most. Right. Yes. That's the guy. Right. We talked about how this guy is like a superman in the last five minutes and that's all he did in this series. Right?

[Dave DeFore]

Like, oh, he did he.

[Ben]

Until the last game where he cooked the whole game. But you know, look, this Knicks team, it was always going to be, I thought it was always going to be close even, you know, I speak spurs and six. It was always going to be a close series because I thought the Knicks were a really good matchup. I. We just hadn't seen Victor Women Yama get solved. And you know, I think that there's, I mean there's an argument to be made. They didn't necessarily solve him, but they solved everyone else. But if you had told me coming in that the guy that would blow games for them was Dear and Fox.

[Zena Cata]

Yeah. Was there shocked was their main veteran signing the. The guy they inked to a massive, you know, four year, 220 million dollar deal that. Yeah, I agree with you guys. I, I agree in the assessment of what we got wrong. I would also say the Knicks found a way to capture the magic of basketball and sometimes that is stronger than anything else. We joke about like the power friendship. Yeah, we joke about that. But there really is something to like this team culturally found something. It resonated with their city and on top of that it resonated with their players and their organization so much that they never thought they were out of any games. I mean, they're 3 and 1 in this playoff run of coming back from down 15 plus points. The rest of the NBA in the playoffs, 6 and 58. So it's just their resilience was something, to Zena's point, to Dave's point, that we underestimated. It's a resolve that I think comes from top down. It's from Jalen Brunson. It's from, you know, honestly, Mike Brown. His ability, like all of these guys, set the tone to what was absolutely a magical run for the Knicks. And that, by the way, like, that's why we love sports. Because even though we could all sit here and say, the spurs are, you know, analytically. Whatever. Shout out to Kenny Atkinson, the Spurs were the more analytically sound team.

[Dave DeFore]

Whatever.

[Ben]

Analytically.

[Zena Cata]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Victor Womanyama said it afterwards.

[Dave DeFore]

They dominated the series. You threw out yesterday as that for 70% of this series, the spurs were up. That, like, eyes opened when I heard that. The other thing, you know, to the point of Mike Brown, Dave, you pointed out, like, the fact that Mike Brown pivoted and then retracted the pivot. Right. And that's something that we did not see Mitch Johnson do. And it felt as if. And I want to go back to the de' Aaron Fox thing, because it all ties together. The biggest thing that you could fault, quote, unquote, fault Mitch Johnson for is being too in the trenches with his game plan. And when I mean game plan, I mean not moving Dylan Harper to a more significant role over the course of this series. And I'm gonna go ahead. Let's. You know, we don't need to be here for a long time. Y' all broke. Y' all broke it down real well yesterday. So I wanna throw out a hot take.

[Ben]

Uh.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, and I want to see what y' all think about this one.

[Ben]

We don't normally do that around here.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't. I don't. I'm not a hot take girl either.

[Ben]

I want to hear it.

[Zena Cata]

I have two hot takes a year, so let's roll with it.

[Dave DeFore]

But there is one thought that came to mind, and it was. I think there was 26.1 seconds on the clock, and I can't remember if it was like they turned the ball over or they bowed someone. Either way, the spurs had lost the ball. 26 seconds left on the clock. And the camera pans real quick. And Wemby's head is down.

[Zena Cata]

Oh.

[Dave DeFore]

And the team's head is down.

[Zena Cata]

Oh. This was right after the Harper miss. I think the Harper layup.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. I think it was. I think it was.

[Ben]

I think it was the one OG blocked.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. And it was just. It was one of those things. The people I was watching with everyone was like, pick your head up. The game's not over. And it was like, oh, they need someone to get in their tails right now and like, remember that they're still playing for a finals. It's not over. There's 26 seconds left on the clock. And I was like, De' Aaron is not the one for this moment. This is also his first time in this moment. And I was thinking, you know, who it would have been that would have been perfect for this moment and not only this moment, this entire series, this. I do not think the spurs would have lost this series if Chris Paul was on this team.

[Ben]

That is a hot take. I like that though.

[Zena Cata]

That's a great take. I love that.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't think they would have lost it this way. I don't know if they would have

[Zena Cata]

it if you're ready to disagree, but I don't hate it.

[Dave DeFore]

I did not think that they would have lost this series this way. If a veteran like Chris Paul, who won prioritizes the pick and roll and would have told Wimby to. To get his butt down low and roll to the basketball, he can make

[Ben]

a post entry pass.

[Zena Cata]

Honestly, period. Chris Paul didn't even need to play. Like, he could have just been.

[Dave DeFore]

That's right.

[Zena Cata]

And that's okay.

[Dave DeFore]

That's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. Even, even off the floor, it would have just been the person talking to them in the huddles, the person getting them together. Like, not a bad suggestion.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Zena Cata]

Not a bad suggestion.

[Dave DeFore]

So that's my hot take is that if Chris Paul was still on this bench, I feel like things would have been a little bit extended at least.

[Ben]

I don't hate that take, actually. But the thing is, this team has a ton of veterans. They don't have a Chris Paul type. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Thank you.

[Ben]

Like, Harrison Barnes is not that guy. And by the way, I. I've got look even more simply. And let me see what you guys think about this. Julian Shampen was pretty bad in this series. Harrison Barnes could have given you just solid minutes and that's really what they needed at the four spot.

[Zena Cata]

They do need a four.

[Ben]

Johnson was terrible. Harrison Barnes could have just given you solid minutes at the four spot and he could space the floor. I think that maybe, like, honestly, if Harrison Barnes plays more in series, there's a good chance Spurs Win games. This. We could have easily been talking about a Spurs 41 win in the series because of how they played. But the reason that they didn't have it is that, like you said, they didn't have that guy that they could trust down the stretch or even that guy that could, like, snap him out of it. Because I don't know how.

[Dave DeFore]

I know this is a kid's show. I don't know how to say, like, get in their A's. They needed somebody to get in there. Asses, bro. What are you doing? Get it together. And the thing is, Chris Paul never shies from that moment. He doesn't care who you are. You could be Victor Wayman Yami, you could be Luka Doncic. You could be any. I mean, he never played with her, but you know what I'm saying? He could be. You could be a superstar. And he can get into people's butts and tell them, let's go. Get it together. This is what you need to be doing. And, you know, just. I'm thinking of like the Andre Godala types where you have that play with Andrew Wiggins and it's like, come on over. What are you doing, bro?

[Zena Cata]

Exactly.

[Dave DeFore]

That's what they needed and they didn't have that. Harrison Barnes wasn't doing that. Mason Plumlee wasn't doing that. Kelly Olenek wasn't doing that.

[Zena Cata]

Bismack bio.

[Dave DeFore]

Bio was not doing that.

[Ben]

So the spurs go get Draymond Green.

[Zena Cata]

Well, look, can I just add to this. Can I add to this? Because I think this is really, really a very important part to this. So everybody's talking about eight different champions in eight years, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, Right.

[Zena Cata]

Starting with the Toronto Raptors in 2019, all the way up to the 2026 Knicks, there's been a different champion every single season. I think there's a bit of a through line to that, though, which is one continuity, like keeping your guys multiple kicks at the can, et cetera, et cetera. But they also all made trades or had guys that allude to what you guys are saying, which is veteran mentality, like the Thunder last year. Don't win without Alex Caruso, without Isaiah Hartenstein. Those two guys, anytime there was a moment of, you know, kind of distraught moment for them, they settled things down. You, you think of the. The Celtics in 2024, it was like, all right, Derrick White was kind of that guy for that. Having Al Horford was a big part of that aspect for them. Every single champion over the last eight years has had one continuity to a Couple of, like, big swing trades. You know, the Knicks themselves made big swings with Carl Anthony Towns, Mikhail Bridges and Josh Hart, but just veteran guys who have been there or have been close to there enough to be able to settle the ship, ease the storm, and like, really be in the eye of the storm and know that, like, kind of rally the troops in those moments. So it's just. I agree. The spurs didn't have that. They also haven't made that trade yet.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, maybe they haven't.

[Zena Cata]

You know, maybe we thought it was Fox, but it's not Fox.

[Dave DeFore]

My. Exactly. My question to you is because I feel like I already know who this is for. Who do you think that person was for the 2019 Raptors?

[Ben]

It was Marcus, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.

[Zena Cata]

It was. It was Danny Green, it was Marcus Saul. It was Kawhi Leonard.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

But, like, interesting, because I would say Fred Van Vliet, but Fred wasn't.

[Ben]

He was.

[Zena Cata]

He was such a young guy.

[Dave DeFore]

He was like the young. He had competitive energy, though. To him, that was like, let's go. He didn't care. I feel like you need that energy, too, to, like, get. Get going. I would.

[Zena Cata]

I would say. Let's see, what Knicks. What would Fred VanVleet be in the 2026 Knicks terms? Like, Landry Shamut would be what?

[Ben]

Right.

[Zena Cata]

What Fred Van Vliet was for those 2019 Raptors. You know, like, crazy shot making out of nowhere.

[Dave DeFore]

Bear. Okay.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

So my. So my thing is, you know what I'm thinking about? Actually take that back. I'm thinking about the Houston Rockets, maybe Fred Van Vliet.

[Zena Cata]

Yes. That version. That version of him.

[Dave DeFore]

Absolutely.

[Zena Cata]

100% that's what I'm thinking about.

[Dave DeFore]

Let me take that. Yes. Okay. But wait, so here's my thing. What you're talking about some of these players that were very important as well to what they were doing offensively out on the floor or defensively, even.

[Zena Cata]

Yep.

[Dave DeFore]

I. You just need a force, a presence, and that's what the spurs don't have right now. They don't have a force or a presence that's not only calming, but is also authoritative. Like, I can't say that with my invisalign in right now. Authoritative? Yeah, authoritative. And I just. I felt like we expected Wimby to be that authoritative figure, and when he was tired, he wasn't able to do that.

[Ben]

And it was supposed to be dearon Fox. It was supposed to be Fox, and it wasn't.

[Zena Cata]

That's so hard to say for a guy who before this playoff run played in seven playoff games. You know, like relying on him to be that dude was so. So it's crazy expectations and, and look, I'm not excusing how bad Fox was in this playoff run. That is a hurdle that the spurs have to come across. But it just, it feels like they were resting their laurels on someone that they probably shouldn't have been in terms of that veteran aspect.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah. All right, guys, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to look ahead for these two teams and see what they need to do this summer.

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[Ben]

Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B A B B E L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply. So we've talked about this. The hardest thing in the NBA is actually to make the finals, not even to win it. It's really hard to just get back to the finals. You know, OG Anunoby talked about this a lot, you know, over the course of the finals, how you know, he went in 2019 and he just thought he would be back and this was his first opportunity to come back. And how he.

[Zena Cata]

Wemby. Wemby just said it after this game. He said he's got to play 100 games to come back and hope that everybody's.

[Ben]

I love that perspective actually because it is a lot. It is a grind to make the finals and then you've got to grind through the finals. You guys. We, we talked about the Thunder adding Caruso and Hartenstein, and there's a lot of similarities between the spurs team and the Thunder team from a couple seasons ago. Who's the Caruso and Hartenstein that the spurs go and get this summer to put them over the hump? Like, who can they go out and get? I think, like, I haven't great. Like, could they get Hardenstein? You know, that's unrealistic. But what's the hot take? Xena?

[Dave DeFore]

Why don't you just go get the

[Ben]

villain of New York Oak, Trey Young.

[Zena Cata]

Trey Young. Okay, that's too much of a hot take.

[Ben]

Xena is cooking way too much.

[Dave DeFore]

Listen, we have to have fun with this. We have to have fun with this right now everyone is saying the same exact thing about this series. Like, it's obvious the spurs were up, they gave up in the second half or they collapsed. It's the same. It's like, let's have fun with this right now.

[Ben]

I have to say this. I don't hate the idea. Okay?

[Zena Cata]

It would be so much fun.

[Ben]

My, my mindset is more on the four spot, right?

[Zena Cata]

Same.

[Ben]

I think they got a lot of, like, they, you know, you've got Harper, who is your point guard of the future. You've got Castle, who is your two. You've got Fox that you. I think you've got to make a decision on. It's the four spot. Who could they add not only to, you know, to help Wemby on defense, but that can space the floor and make it so that someone you can run some offense through wouldn't be terrible because Wemby. One of the things Ms. Johnson failed at in the series was finding a way to get Wemby rest when he was on the court. You know, the greats are able to stay in the game 41 minutes, but they don't look like it. You know, you need Wemby to just space the corner. Sometimes you need them just inactive but present so that you have him on the defensive end. And I think if they could go out and get a four man that could provide some offense that can play defense, I think that they would, they would do pretty well. What were you gonna say before we,

[Dave DeFore]

I have four question question before we dive into these names. S Are you looking straight? Do you want to go free agent first and then trade people? People you want to trade for?

[Zena Cata]

So I, I, one of these guys is a free agent. Three of them would have to be traded for.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay, I'M wondering if your one is my one. Go ahead.

[Zena Cata]

Very curious. Okay, so I agree with you, Dave should be a 4. Should be a guy that they could get some offense out of. I would. Ideally, spacing makes sense. Shooting makes sense around Victor Wembanyama. Guys who can play together. The number one name that comes to mind, especially when you bring up like a veteran. Tobias Harris.

[Dave DeFore]

Yes.

[Zena Cata]

Oh, there we go. There we go.

[Dave DeFore]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Ben]

I feel like this is targeted at me as a way for me to tell you that I hate that idea.

[Dave DeFore]

No, I love this idea.

[Ben]

I love Tobias Harris. I think he's good. I actually think he would fit quite well as a four on this team. The issue comes on the defensive end. I don't think he's mobile enough to, to be able to guard the way that, that the spurs want to guard. But I like him. I like him as a guy who will take shots.

[Zena Cata]

He will take shots.

[Ben]

16 to 18 a game.

[Zena Cata]

He's also a pretty good rebounder at his position. So, like, size wise, you can do it. Okay. And then the other capables, the other guys are like trade guys.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Zena Cata]

And. And you can kind of do any combination. Daniel Gafford, P.J. washington or Bobby Portis.

[Ben]

I think Washington would be f fantastic. He's a guy up top. He can switch. You know, you're not worried about him in space. Obviously can shoot, can finish.

[Zena Cata]

I think Marshall also, that's another guy.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's a guy everybody should be going for. Who's better than his role. How about this, guys? How about you call up the Houston Rockets and you say, we've got this dear and Fox guy. He signed to an extension. He'd be a great point guard for you guys.

[Zena Cata]

It's interesting.

[Ben]

And maybe we take Jabari Smith and Tari Easton off your hands. And now what was.

[Zena Cata]

Well, first of all, the Rockets are not doing.

[Ben]

Of course not. You have to throw in some picks. You might have to throw in, you know, something else. But I, I mean, that's the sort of guy that I think that they should be like a young veteran, not. Not someone older. You want someone. I mean, Jabari's under contract. I think that they've got a few years before they get expensive.

[Zena Cata]

And he would be perfect.

[Ben]

He could play some small ball five for them. And in an like, mostly offensive lineup. I, I think that Jabari would be the perfect fit there.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I just don't know how realistic it is to go out and get him.

[Guest Advertiser]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, that's Where I get. I struggle is the moves. Right. When you start talking about trades and. And what you're exchanging for. Because one where you want to pull these guys from are they're teams that are also trying to pull up. Right. Or they're trying to grow and they're like, no, we. We're getting that continuity that S. Was just talking about. We're trying to submit things as opposed to, you know, flip things out. You know, if it was last year rather than this year, I'd be like, could you ask for Pascal?

[Zena Cata]

Yeah, well, that would be perfect, but.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Ben]

Yeah. Can you add an all star next. Next to Wimpy? I think is that' be a tall task, but.

[Dave DeFore]

You know what I mean? But like, if. If the. If the Pacers were like, listen, I. We don't know what's going to happen.

[Zena Cata]

We want to go a different direction.

[Ben]

Sure.

[Dave DeFore]

We want to go a different direction. Etc. We don't know. We got our guy Tyrese. We're just waiting on him. We just went and got beats a Zubots. Like, we're good. Like you. You never know. You never know. Pascal was kind of doing things by himself for a while there, so.

[Ben]

Yeah. I'll tell you this. I. If. If you asked the spurs and I sort of did, I. I don't know if Carter Bryant isn't a guy that they see being able to slide into the starting lineup. I like that next year his shot came around. I mean, his defense in the playoffs. I mean, you think about him guarding Shea Gilders, Alexander, the way he was picking up Jalen Brunson, full court. I mean, that's. Yeah, that's your four man.

[Zena Cata]

Once he can start shooting. Once he can start shooting, he can definitely, like, I mean, even just. Just fought up shots.

[Ben]

Yeah, he's just small. Four. Four. I mean, that's my one concern. You can't. I mean, him at the five. They. They did a couple times in the regular season. It wasn't amazing. I mean, again, I just think like a more natural tweener 4, 5 guy, you know, 6, 6, 9, 610 is a. Is a more natural fit there.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm trying to think of, okay, what's more realistic for Houston to do. You've got Houston on my mind right now. Could Joshua Kogi be someone that could help?

[Ben]

But.

[Zena Cata]

But that's not moving the needle for me.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it's not doing much. Okay. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm just thinking defender.

[Ben]

I do think the spurs are gonna have a hard time.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, they were.

[Ben]

They're gonna have a hard time figuring out the right fit. Right. Because you've already got these, you've got the Wemby and Harper dynamic and that is your team and everyone has to fit around them. Well, we'll see. They got, they need to develop that. Yeah. The two main game. But I just think when you have two players like that, you gotta, whoever comes in has to fit around that. And, and you need a floor spacer big time. A guy that will take shots and hit him hopefully.

[Zena Cata]

But can I, can I, can I throw out a funny number as we transition to the Knicks here?

[Ben]

Yes.

[Zena Cata]

Can you guys guess what range Jalen Brunson is in terms of the highest paid players in the NBA? Oh, like just give me a range. Where, where do you guys think he ranks?

[Ben]

He.

[Zena Cata]

Yeah, just give me a range.

[Ben]

Is he like the hundredth paid, highest paid player or something?

[Zena Cata]

No, 100 is crazy. Zena, what do you think?

[Ben]

I thought it was going to be ridiculous.

[Dave DeFore]

He'd be like mid tier, like 30 to 50.

[Zena Cata]

Yeah, he's right there. So he's, he's, he's 47th. Okay.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Zena Cata]

In terms of the highest players, what

[Ben]

is his aav he's making, I can't remember what he makes a year.

[Zena Cata]

$4 million this year he's making $37 million the next year, 40 million the year after. And then in a couple years he has a 43 million dollar player option. Just to consider like Darren Fox is a guy to make like 60, you know, and OG Anunoby is the highest paid player on this, this Knicks team. Like that's actually, it's Carl Anthony Towns, but OG Anunoby right after him. So team construction wise, they are expensive, but they also, they're, they're wildly built in the sense that their best player is on one of the most affordable contracts. Jalen Brunson, now Finals MVP and he's the 47th highest paid player in the NBA. In terms of what they do. Mitchell Robinson is a free agent. Lander Shamet is a free agent. Those are two guys they probably want to keep, need to keep. Outside of that, I don't think they do much. How do you guys feel about the Knicks?

[Ben]

I mean this is a team that, that should be willing to go into the second apron. And if it means bringing these guys back, you know, Shame it. I think even Jordan Clarkson, they, they maybe want to have back. Obviously, you know, we'll see how all that works out. I mean, if I was going to say one thing, they, they need a, they need A three. You know, I think Josh Hart is another three, three, four. You know, I think that they need someone's position. No, I mean I think they need to upgrade on the Josh Hart starting spot if they could get a guy who, who could shoot and, and would be a willing shooter. And I know that sounds like super hater stuff because he just won a title.

[Dave DeFore]

Crazy game. The sh.

[Ben]

It's the shooting though that, that really, really concerns me because it, it, I think it puts him in positions that they shouldn't be in. You know, they, they generate open looks and he won't take shots. And I've been talking last night in game five of the finals, he, he hit some tough looks. Yeah, that should not have been tough. He was, you know, pump faking out of open shots. He was dribbling out of open shots. And one of the reasons why their offense can get bogged down and did get bogged down by the spurs is his unwillingness to take the open look when he catches. You compare that to like Devin Vassell and even Julian Champagne. To his credit, he, he launches. Now they're not that they're not as good as Josh Hart and Josh Hart does a lot more than just take shots. But I do think that if you're looking for something that just makes everyone's life a little bit easier and maybe it's not a starter, maybe it's just a, you know, a backup three. You know, Landry Shammit is, is a little bit more of a two to me because of who he guards, but a bigger guy who can take shots coming off the bench, even that, that subs in for those heart minutes when, when he's not out there. I, I do, I do think that their half court offense would benefit from someone like that.

[Zena Cata]

I, I'll actually, I'll go the other way. Maybe not the other way, but I, I think how important Jose Alvarado was in this series for them showed that like having a secondary ball handler that can play next to Jalen Brunson is super important for them.

[Ben]

Mo happened to, to deuce McBride, right? He was, he was like three of

[Zena Cata]

a hundred from three in the finals. Some sort of combination like maybe Tyler kick. They believe that that's the guy that can be a secondary ball handler for them. I think Alvarado will be back for them as well, but just another ball handler that they can rely, that they can trust on. That's why there was the litany of the Clarkson. You know, Shamit, even Josh Hart to a certain extent. Like guys who can handle the ball a little bit for you, finding him is very important that. That secondary ball handler.

[Dave DeFore]

Do you guys think that Tyler Kolek can grow into that role for them? I mean, we saw his contributions in the NBA cup hero.

[Zena Cata]

NBA cup hero. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

But I'm curious too. Like, we. I just remember the panic that came across a lot of us when we heard about Mitchell Robinson's pinky.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

That to me tells me maybe you need a little bit more size size. You know, you think about the fact that Mitchell Robinson had to be a major player in this last game because of. Or these last two games. When you think about Karl Anthony Towns fouling foul trouble. Foul trouble early and then also not being able to produce much. Maybe some size, some another. Not necessarily another enforcer, but just someone that can play alongside Carl Anthony Towns and allow him to roam the way he wants to roam. Or someone that. But if Carla Towns isn't foul trouble, you still have OG that's capable of staying at the 4 position. And very much like a Mitchell Robinson comes in, cleans things up, set some hard screens, maybe can hit some free throws, though, a little bit better.

[Ben]

Yeah. No one taught Mitchell Robinson to shoot like that. Okay, before. Before we get out of here for. For the day, let me ask you guys, can the Knicks run it back next year and be back in the Finals?

[Dave DeFore]

No. And I only say that because of what history has told us. Everyone is going to retool. They're going to go back to the drawing board. They're going to figure out what they need to figure out. And to be honest, this team in this Finals run, if I'm another NBA team, and I'm saying they were not able to score they want the way they wanted to score, they were not as offensively sound and as offensively powerful throughout this final series as they were throughout the entire playoffs. So that means that they're gettable from, you know, that perspective. It's a matter of who cannot collapse in the second half. I don't think that that's like a. That makes the New York Knicks inevitable. And I agree with you, S. I think that there was a certain destiny and magic around this that made this a very special run. But I don't. I think they'll be very competitive, but I don't know that they'll be automatically back in, you know, in position to win the Finals.

[Ben]

It's just too hard. We.

[Zena Cata]

We said the same thing about the Thunder where like, oh, well, they're going to be here for years and years and years. You know, we said the same thing about the Celtics. They're going to be here for years and years and years. The Nuggets. Right. And so I think it is very hard to repeat in this modern NBA where one injury can take you out of it, where you have to, like Wemby said, Play 100 games. It would be awesome for the Knicks to be back here and for the city of New York to experience like, this level of dominance that hasn't been seen since the Warriors. They have just, they've basically been in this postseason as dominant as those warriors teams. I'm, I, I'm curious whether the Knicks have what it takes to do that again. And that's nothing about the Knicks. It is about the state of the NBA and where we're at in terms of team building. It's just a lot hard to win back to back.

[Dave DeFore]

Agree.

[Ben]

I will say, though, this team is in its prime. They're at the best that they're going to be. And they does feel like during this playoff run, they kind of discovered some things that maybe they didn't know they had, especially with, with Cat as an offensive hub. I think that maybe makes their regular season a little bit easier if they can stick with this stuff.

[Zena Cata]

Yeah, I really like your 04 pistons comp last night because that was a team that from, from 2003 to 2009, made it to the conference finals every single year. Made it to two NBA finals, you know, won once in 2004, lost in 2005. Like, there's, there's something real to kind of like some of all of its parts.

[Ben]

If you can make it to the Final Four consistently. I mean, this is what happened with the Celtics, right? And they only got one title out of it, but they make it to the Final Four consistently. They go to a couple of finals, they win one. I think this next team, you know, they were in, we saw them last year, right? Like they were in the conference finals. They make the finals this year. I think they're probably back in the conference finals next year.

[Zena Cata]

Oh, I have a question.

[Dave DeFore]

But you know, what's, you know, it's a little different.

[Zena Cata]

Hold on.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. One question of like. Or one quick comment on that is. It's what you mentioned, too, is that they were also, quote, unquote, tired of losing, right? They've now lost. That. That's no longer a thing. They have the win. Yeah, that's a different type of drive when you, you talk about them being a sum of all parts them, you know, having one Two, three cracks at it at different teams, different stops. They get to the Knicks, they get it all together, they put all the pieces together and they're like, come on, we're here, we're just at the cusp. And they finally do it. How does that shift their mentality as well, going into trying to repeat that? That changes things. Sorry, go ahead.

[Zena Cata]

S. Yeah, okay, this is silly, this is a really silly question, but I think it's something fun we can end on. Okay. Given the continuity stuff, given the fact that we've had eight different champions and eight different NBA finals predict who will be the 2027 NBA champions today.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Zena Cata]

Just given the trend of, of the NBA and like multiple cracks at it.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Zena Cata]

The Knicks. The Knicks had multiple shots at it. The Celtics did. The Thunder had it a couple times. Like, who is that next team that has been knocking on the door and will finally burst through that door?

[Ben]

I mean, it's, it's a little bit boring to say the spurs, but okay. Yeah, I mean, I think what they, what they do, it seems sustainable. They won 62 games in a regular season and I think we all agree they're at least a year early here.

[Zena Cata]

Right.

[Ben]

And they push the Knicks no matter what. Like you look at a five game final series and I think if you didn't watch it, you might think, oh, wow, the Knicks just blew them out. Nowhere close. I think they, this spurs team could have won the title this year. I'd say the spurs are my front runners. I bet. I bet if the Vegas odds are out, which I'm not a gambling guy, so I have no idea if they're out.

[Zena Cata]

They're probably favorites.

[Ben]

I would guess that the spurs are the favorites. So that's a boring answer, but.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. I like, I mean, I like the idea of the Spurs. It feels like they are supposed to be the next ones up, but if not the Spurs, I might take a gamble and say the Timberwolves.

[Zena Cata]

I was gonna say the Timberwolves. That's awesome. I agree.

[Ben]

Depends on what, what goes on with them this summer. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, you know, I think they gotta

[Ben]

find a home for Julius Randle and. Right is Gobert. I mean, Gobert was great last season, but he's getting older and you know, bigs don't age as well, but they

[Zena Cata]

fit the profile of like, continuity. They've kept that same group for now. Sure. And, but, well, that's the other thing. Like most of these continuity groups, they've made some sort of change. And the Randall change is big, but what else do the Timberwolves have in store? I don't know. I think I would also pick the Minnesota Tim rules.

[Dave DeFore]

The other two that come to mind for me are the Cavs, but they have to figure out what they're doing this summer as well.

[Zena Cata]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

And the Pistons.

[Zena Cata]

Yes. Yeah, I agree.

[Ben]

Yeah. Really interesting. I mean, this summer. This summer is going to be. I mean, we're going to get at least one big trade and I think we're probably going to get a bunch and maybe here in the next week, 10 days. Yeah, we might get Yanis Giannis should be somewhere new. I don't think it's going to be Minnesota. It's definitely not going to be the New York Knicks now because they just won the title.

[Dave DeFore]

And I don't think it's going to

[Zena Cata]

be the San Antonio spurs either. I've seen some people bring that up. I don't. I don't think they are going to do something that drastic.

[Ben]

Nah, I don't think so. They should not. They. They could go slow and steady and I think they're going to be perennial contenders with. With the guys that they've got, so. Yeah. Any final thoughts before. Before we wrap up for the day?

[Dave DeFore]

No. We are worn out, folks.

[Ben]

Yeah. Hey, yeah. Congratulations to the Knicks. Knicks fans. You know, the parade's going to be Thursday.

[Zena Cata]

Have you guys seen the aerial.

[Ben]

Have fun.

[Zena Cata]

Have you guys seen the aerial videos of New York?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Zena Cata]

Absurd saying. Please be safe, everybody. But it also enjoy yourselves.

[Ben]

It's. Yeah, it's great. Got the World Cup. Go check out the athletics coverage of that. It's excellent. We've got people at every game for the entirety of. Of the World cup run. So definitely everybody send me to a game.

[Zena Cata]

You know, that's not a problem.

[Ben]

Is that all we got to do? We ask them to podcast for stuff and maybe we get it. I gotta start doing that.

[Zena Cata]

All right. I will volunteer as tribute. It's not a problem.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Okay. Well, that's gonna do it for today's show, folks. Thank you guys for listening as always. Thanks to Zena, Caida and Esperahenny. I'm Dave Dufour and this is Ben the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us. Thanks for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode if you enjoyed it. Drop a like leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us. Tired of unexpected equipment failures eating into your production time? Manufacturing teams using Maintain X are seeing real results. 33% less unplanned downtime and 32% lower maintenance costs. Maintain X puts real time data in your technician's hands, preventing breakdowns before they happen. Get up and running in just three weeks and join over 10,000 frontline teams maximizing their uptime with Maintain X. Start your free [e-mail] hi, this is

[Zena Cata]

Ben Green from the Athletic FC. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout days dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.

[Dave DeFore]

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[Guest Advertiser]

Are you my dad now?

[Dave DeFore]

No, sorry.

[Ben]

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