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- [00:00]
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- [02:05]
Zena Kaeda
Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily presented by Amazon Prime. It's Thursday, February 26th. I'm Zena Kaeda, joined by La Murray and coming up, the two number ones battled in the east and we're going to discuss how Detroit came out on top with Hunter Patterson. The Celtics took a loss to the Nuggets and according to Phil Jackson, that means something that we need to pay attention to. And James Harden unfortunately broke his hand. And is that going to be a make or break for the Cavs? We're going to get all into it right now. Law what's up my guy? Thanks for joining me again on the NBA Daily.
- [02:38]
La Murray
Yeah, thank you for having me again. And this week it feels like contenders Week to end February. And I'm excited to discuss it.
- [02:48]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah. Okay. So contenders week. I'm happy you brought that up because for those of you that don't know, Phil Jackson had this rule, this 4020 rule when it comes to contention law. Break that down for us.
- [03:01]
La Murray
Yeah. So Phil Jackson said that it takes a certain amount of games to figure out what teams are contenders and which teams are pretenders. He established a line earlier in this 21st century that we're in where if you win 40 games before you lose your 20th game, you are a bona fide contender for a championship in that season. And let me tell you, the hit rate for this is high. Like incredibly high. 18 of the last 19 NBA champions won their 40th game before they lost their 20th. If they lost their 20th at all. Going to all the NBA champions. Only 17 out of 29 teams, sorry, 17 out of 79 teams in NBA history have won the title without being a 40 before 20 team. And only four of those teams have come in the three point line era that was established in 1979. So you could say, you know, look, history is meant to be bucked, if you will. The, and I use the word buck very intentionally because the Bucks are the only team in the last 19 years to win a championship without being a 40 for 20. But the next phase is you got to still probably beat at least one of those teams to say you are a champion in the playoffs. So this is one of the better historical measures we have to evaluate projecting champions. And we have our teams. Every team in the league has lost 20 games, except for three that have won 40 games before they lost their 20th.
- [04:50]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, well, I think last night's deck of games allowed us to quickly look at this 4020 marker. And the first one we're going to talk about in more depth after the break. But Detroit took on okc. Where do they stand in this?
- [05:04]
La Murray
Detroit, they are a 40 before 20 team. Oklahoma City on the strength of that 24 one start that had us thinking of other Phil Jackson teams. They are a 40 before 20 team, but they face each other. And it wasn't the matchup that you might have wanted to see. This wasn't a true finals preview because of personnel, but I think we're, we'll have a good conversation about what we did see.
- [05:33]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. All right, well, let's keep it to the East. You talked about the Bucks before. The Bucks got a win against the Cleveland Cavaliers last night. And I, I do want to quickly hit on this. The Bucks are obviously not a team that's going to get their 40th win before their 20th, but they're interestingly trying to sneak into play in right now. I'm not sure what's going on there, but where does Cleveland land with this 4020 marker?
- [05:56]
La Murray
Well, the Cavaliers, they were one of those 40 before 20 teams last year. They are 37 and 23 after losing a heartbreaker in Milwaukee. Kevin Porter Jr. He had a go ahead field goal, Schroeder had a chance to tie it, Jared Allen made a bucket and it was after the expiration of the game clock. But I think Cleveland is one of those teams in the east where it's like, look, whatever you think of our regular season, we think we can have a better playoff season because instead of Darius Garland we have James Harden. And James is dealing with a fracture to his non shooting thumb. It's going to be more annoying than concerning I would say, but I think his March is going to be weird. But I wouldn't be too concerned with what that looks like for his postseason.
- [06:47]
Zena Kaeda
I don't know. I don't know if I agree with you on that one law because I just think about a non shooting hand. Sure may not affect the offense, but James Harden is one of the worst defenders unfortunately in the NBA. He has one of the worst on off defensive metrics. And I don't know if Jared Allen and Evan Mobley are back there. Sure that helps clean things up but if you have either one of them off the floor it could impact some things. But so we'll have to see when it comes to the Cavs. And he was questionable last night and ultimately did not play against the Bucks. But the Bucks had seven players in double digits were able to win the game having shot only five free throws. There's only three teams that have done that this year, Atlanta, Golden State, Boston, and now the bucks. And they're one game back from the 10th position in the East. So I'm not sure what they're trying to do here. I thought this was a tank year, but maybe they heard about what Adam Silver is doing. They're like no, no no, we're trying to be in that at least play in contention game. But let's get back to this contention marker because I really do like this. Boston and Denver went up against each other. These are formidable playoff contenders for sure. We know that they're going to be in the playoffs, they're going to be in that position. But where do they land in terms of this 40 and 20 marker. And what does this really say about either of their seasons?
- [08:09]
La Murray
Yeah, well, Denver, they lost their 20th game a week or so ago, so unfortunately they're not going to be in this. Boston had a chance. They had a chance on Wednesday night. They needed to beat Denver and then come home off of this Western Conference trip they were on and beat the Nets. And they would have been in it, but the schedule got them. Denver had two days off. We all know the altitude in Denver. And the Celtics, they had a great win the night before in Phoenix without Jalen Brown, but even with Jaylen Brown, they look like they were out of gas. You saw it like Denver hadn't limited a team to that few points all season. Boston was held to 35% from the field. So they're not it. We have our, we have our three teams and now the Celtics are like the Nuggets.
- [09:01]
Hunter Patterson
They.
- [09:01]
La Murray
They're one of those teams that are going to be trying to disrupt this 40 before 20 rule come postseason type.
- [09:10]
Zena Kaeda
It is worth noting that Jamal Murray went out with an illness early in that game for Denver. So Jokic was able to get that win over Boston and finish out 1103 over 84 almost by himself. So shout out to Denver being able to pull out that win. But you keep talking about the three teams in that 4020 space and we haven't talked about the third team yet that pulled out a very narrow win, the spurs over Toronto. Wemby was not the star of this game. They found a way to keep him in check. Yet the spurs were still able to get that win in Toronto. That's your third 4020 team, right?
- [09:49]
La Murray
Right, right. San Antonio, 42 wins, 16 losses, 10 straight. And the thing that I saw in Toronto, they were down 15 and like you said, Wimby was looking like the Wimby that we saw in the first three quarters in the Detroit game. And yeah, Serrano I think had a great plan for him defensively. I think they did really well in the Jacob Hurtle minutes. And naturally the Raptors lost the minutes that Jakob was on the bench by 21 points in the game decided by one possession once Devin Vassell. Just again, just like the Detroit game that we were talking about Monday night. Devin Vesel hit five of six threes. Devin Vassell led that star studded spurs team in scoring. This is a guy who's going to be a huge extractor in the playoffs because if you're going to overplay the interior, the ball handlers and Devin Vassell is going to get these shots. He's going to be in a spot to really flip some games. And yeah, I'm pretty sure Toronto would have, would have appreciated an inefficient night from Vesel, especially on a night where Brandon Ingram, he had a chance to win. He had the side of the backboard, so.
- [11:07]
Zena Kaeda
And he had a turnover late in the game too.
- [11:08]
La Murray
Yeah, we see how San Antonio is going to have to win games.
- [11:11]
Zena Kaeda
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean San Antonio is one of those teams that has a like multitude of guards, just like they're gluttonous for guards right now. Whereas one of the teams that we're going to talk about on the other side of this break is lacking their guards and still put up a fight up until the end. Overall, Detroit got the win. We're going to talk about that with Hunter Patterson right after this. Don't go anywhere, y'.
- [11:32]
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- [11:37]
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- [11:51]
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- [13:49]
Zena Kaeda
okay, I have to tell
- [13:51]
Hunter Patterson
you, I was just looking on ebay,
- [13:52]
Zena Kaeda
where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was.
- [13:55]
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That hologram trading card.
- [13:57]
Zena Kaeda
One of the rarest.
- [13:58]
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The last one I needed for my set.
- [14:00]
Zena Kaeda
Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. Ebay had it. And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you get your windshield wiper?
- [14:09]
La Murray
Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful.
- [14:15]
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- [14:34]
Zena Kaeda
All right, y'. All, Detroit handled business tonight at home, beating the defending champions, the Thunder, 124, 116 in what was supposed to be and I think lived up a little bit to the expectations of the marquee game of the night. The two number one seeds going up against each other, and Detroit just handled business. So we got Hunter Patterson, of course, our writer covering the Detroit Pistons from the Athletic, to help us break it down. Welcome back, Hunter. We love the background. Thank you for making our YouTube more aesthetically pleasing.
- [15:03]
Hunter Patterson
I'm glad to be back. I try my best to bring it every time I'm with y', all, so I'm looking forward to it.
- [15:09]
Zena Kaeda
Well, speaking of bringing it, it feels like that's exactly what Detroit ended up doing. This game was a little bit of ups and downs, though, because Detroit looked like a little bit of a circus at the beginning. There was balls going out of bounds, guys bumping into each other, but they were able to clean it up. They built themselves a lead. They almost let it go, but they were able to close it out. When you looked at the ups and downs of this game, what were you seeing? Was this miscommunication? Was this a little bit of jitters because it was a big matchup? What was your take?
- [15:40]
Hunter Patterson
I think it was mainly a team so eager to right what they felt was their wrong from their last game in terms of just being outplayed by the spurs, and they kind of wanted to do it all at, like, as soon as the game started, and they really ended up kind of winning the game in the second and third quarters, so it kind of had to cool out. A little bit. Let the game come to them and not force things. But the Thunder were really on it from three in the first quarter. I believe they were like five or 12 from three. So I think it was just a combination of things. But they were really eager to kind of come out and play better than they did on Monday.
- [16:26]
La Murray
Hunter, first of all, shout out to you. Putting off a little Caesar's Arena. That's one of us. Oh, yeah, it's one of my. As a visitor, one of my favorite road arenas because, one, they feed you. And two, I've said, I said this often, like, Mason, Mason's dope, man. Like, I mean, I was. I was in high school for the 04 finals. So the fact that he's still doing these games and now you're chronicling them. And of course they had to be good because you moved there like Xena, you know, when Hunter left Sacramento. And the Kings ain't even the same.
- [17:03]
Zena Kaeda
Oh, I know he did leave the bay. But wait for our listeners that are listening. Who is Mason? I don't know who Mason is.
- [17:10]
La Murray
Hunna, tell them who Mason is.
- [17:12]
Hunter Patterson
So Mason is a legendary PA announcer here in Detroit. He.
- [17:17]
Zena Kaeda
Thank you. Okay.
- [17:19]
Hunter Patterson
Coined the term Detroit basketball. He has, like, several sayings that kind of get the crowd going. Detroit basketball going back down the other way. I might. I might have butchered that a little bit, actually, but along those lines. And he's just someone who has really owned intros in game engagement, and he sustained it over the course of essentially almost my lifetime.
- [17:46]
La Murray
I'm just so glad that you get to. You get to be there while the team is having this resurgence.
- [17:53]
Zena Kaeda
Hunter.
- [17:53]
La Murray
And speaking of resurgence, it was interesting to hear that you felt like you weren't always sure what kind of game you'd get, like anticipating a blowout, but not always getting that. And I characterize this Pistons team as a high floor, high effort team. Is there some dispute to that? A little bit. Are they feeling themselves a little bit as a team that is exceeding expectations and maybe might be a threat to relax at points in March.
- [18:30]
Hunter Patterson
I'd be really surprised if they relaxed at any point during the regular season or postseason. It's. It's been a common theme kind of dating back to last season when they started to be more competitive than they have been in the past, where anytime reporters or people within the locker room kind of tried to fry big picture questions out of them, like, how are you guys feeling? Do you feel like you've accomplished anything? It was a consistent message across the board from JB to the last person on the bench that we haven't done anything yet. This is cool, but if we play at this rate and then maybe choke down the line like this doesn't mean anything. So I think they've all really been consistent in trying to combat complacency and not feel like they've arrived or accomplished because they have two All Stars and they're on pace for at least 50 wins. So I don't think they're really a group that lets themselves feel like they've arrived.
- [19:31]
Zena Kaeda
And I feel like that is probably led by K. Cunningham. He had a bad shooting night against the spurs, goes for 29 points, 11 for 16 shooting, 13 assists, three blocks. I mean, incredibly efficient from the floor and I feel like he kind of leads that and he's not the only person that kind of came back and doesn't settle for, you know, I had some inconsistencies or have gone up and down. It feels like it starts from bigger staff. And I particularly look at the fact that Asar Thompson got benched last game. He didn't play well against the Spurs. He comes back and he kind of had a bit of a redemption game after having some defensive lapses. Was there anything said about that sort of tone being set with the team of if you make a mistake and you cause us some issues, you're going to sit, but you're going to get the opportunity to make up for it later on? What do you see in this game and also post game as they talked
- [20:30]
Hunter Patterson
about it, Asar was really transparent post game and essentially said he felt like Monday's loss was more or less on him and for him to be one of the leaders. Yeah, for him to be one of the leaders of the team and essentially say this was on me and not anyone else, and own the mistakes he made defensively, I think that kind of speaks volumes to who he is to this team. And Cade was asked about Asar saying that and he was like, nah, man. Like, he's a humble person. Kudos to him for trying to take that stance. But that was on all of us. We don't win and lose games based on one person. And again, it just kind of showed the connectivity of the team, which JB throughout the season has said has been a component of the team that's won them games.
- [21:22]
La Murray
Hunter, given that the Thunder are where they are in the standings, where the Pistons are where they are, you were here. They play again March 30, which is a weird spot for both teams because they'll be on either side of the back to back. The personnel is the personnel. Did you take anything away, anything of significance from what you saw from the Thunder specifically as it relates to how these teams might match up with. When the Thunder get healthier star players playing in this matchup, I think it's
- [21:56]
Hunter Patterson
extremely impressive that they can have, I mean, Buddy Boeheim got minutes tonight that was like sparingly, but they, they have consistent mentality of like, if you're on the floor, you are going to uphold the standard that we've set as a championship team. And that goes for topic Will, Kenrich Williams, Jerick McCain who I still can't believe they got from. From Philly, Jalen Williams. It's insane, honestly. But they just have like a real.
- [22:28]
Zena Kaeda
It.
- [22:28]
Hunter Patterson
It's kind of a cliche, but they really do have a championship mentality. And John Hollinger shouts out our guy pre game. He asked Mark Dagnall about last season. They had a stretch where they were without some of their big men and they ended up kind of learning from that stretch and use some of the lineups during that stretch in the playoffs. And this season has kind of been the same issue that they've had with availability for guards between Shay being out and Jada being out. And Jon asked if there was anything that he feels that they'll be able to learn from this stretch and apply later on down the line. And Mark was pretty transparent again in saying like, we wish we were healthy, but this is something that will give us an opportunity to tinker with lineups, tinker with rotations and see how we can essentially capitalize on bad health and unfortunate luck that way as well.
- [23:23]
Zena Kaeda
I'm wondering if there is any sort of discount you give to this win because you just mentioned that last year they were having the absences of Biggs. This year they've been having the absences of guards. Well, this game they had absences of both. Isaiah Hartenstein didn't play in this game. Chet Holmgren didn't play in this game. He had low back spasms. Of course we know that. Jayla Williams, Chef Shel Gudis, Alexander, A.J. mitchell, Alex Caruso. I mean, you go down the line, this is significant absences for or these are significant absences for okc. Does Detroit look at this win and say, you know, we're happy we got the win, we got to, we handled our business. But this doesn't actually depict the real number one versus the real number one? Or is it like, no, no, this is a team like you said OKC is a championship mentality. They are a plug and play system, and you take the win for what it is, and you still see it as that competition.
- [24:19]
Hunter Patterson
I'd say they're a team who, I mean, they're not gonna discredit a win. Like, a win is a win. They lost to the Wizards on trade deadline day, and that was a game that I think probably everyone in the locker room and the arena thought that they should have won. But I'm sure they're also aware, like, we didn't get their best shot. And that's kind of in theme with them not feeling they've accomplished anything. So they'll take it. They're glad to bounce back from Monday's loss, but I think they're fully aware that this was a team essentially without the bulk of their starters, minus Lou Dort. So I don't think they're like, we beat, we beat. OKC shouts out us Like, I think this was like, we'll take it. We won. But we, we want a shot at them in a few weeks when they are healthy.
- [25:12]
La Murray
I'm curious, Hunter, from you, that second quarter obviously flipped the game. There was not a single lead change or tie after halftime. And looking at Cade and Jalen work together in that second quarter, specifically when they were down double digits, how is their synergy? Can you shed light on how those two all star players, those two lottery picks, one who has already been paid and one who is playing for a bag now, how have they connected? How is it that those two dudes stay together no matter how good things are or how challenging things might be?
- [25:51]
Hunter Patterson
They've essentially experienced the worst of the worst a few years ago when. When they almost could not win a game during that 28 game losing streak and 14 wins. So they were essentially bonded by all of the misfortune that they experienced in that stretch. And because of that, they have perspective on when things aren't going well. We're still like, we've come a long way, but this is. Kate is 24, JD is 22. Like, they've acknowledged how far they've come, but they still feel they have a long way to go. And, I mean, they've had a relationship since they were in high school. They've been friends a long time. They've learned how to talk to each other in the heat of the moment. Whether it's in an aggressive tone or like, they just understand each other past just being teammates on a basketball team. They're real friends in real life. And that synergy just carries over from when they spend time in Colorado in the off season when they go to Rome. And this is just the result of them being two people who are really connected at the hip, essentially.
- [27:05]
Zena Kaeda
There's something that warms my heart when I hear that basketball players are actual friends outside of work. I think deeply about that.
- [27:12]
Hunter Patterson
Really? Yeah. Not to interject, but that seems like the entire locker room. They really kick it in real life when they're in cities and they have an opportunity to go out and get dinner away from just like hotel catered meals. Like they really hang out in real life.
- [27:28]
Zena Kaeda
And you can tell those teams, right? I mean, OKC is one of those teams, Detroit's one of those teams, Charlotte's one of those teams. They're just like, they're laughing, they're hanging out. You see that there's not much of a difference in the cadence in which they communicate and interact out on the court from where they are off the court. And it specifically shows up when they're battling. They're really in the depths and the throes of battle. Um, and I appreciate you, Law, for bringing up the dynamic between Cade and Jalen because I really do feel like their dynamic is the ceiling of this team. Like that that sets the bar for how far they can go. And Hunter, of course I'm going to go ahead and give a little bit of a discredit, discreditation to this game because it wasn't the full punch and the full blow to okc, but the bones are there. We've seen it all season long. It's not as if we haven't seen that this team is capable of it. I'm curious what you think, you know, the ceiling is for someone like a Jalen Duran, his third 20 and 10 game in a row now we've seen Cade Cunningham and what he can do putting the ball in the basket, but also being a very physical defender for, for Detroit. What's, what is the ceiling as they head to the playoffs?
- [28:43]
Hunter Patterson
I think they're, they're do specifically you're saying those two as a duo.
- [28:48]
Zena Kaeda
Well, for them, setting it for Detroit
- [28:51]
Hunter Patterson
as a team, I think they're, they're, they set the tone and they, they just know how to challenge each other and I think that kind of, that, that helps in allowing them to set the tone and then everyone else follows. So if K sees JD missing assignment like he'll, he won't hesitate to get on him about that and vice versa. And I think that because they have that communication style, it's infectious throughout the Team where I don't think Dennis has needed any encouragement to be himself, but like he'll call Cade out and that's just kind of like a trickle down effect where it's like they all hold each other accountable and it starts from the top, but it's all of them feeling that they're on the same level and can hold each other accountable, whether it's my all star and potential MVP candidate or it's someone coming off the bench. So that dynamic is infectious throughout the team. And as far as their ceiling, I mean, JD's favorite term is like sky's the limit. Extremely bad cliche to use in this situation, but I think they feel that way. Like they don't think that anyone who steps on the floor on any given night is better than them. And granted, like you have more time to game plan, you have more time to key in on people's tendencies to not allow them to succeed that way in the postseason. So they've got to start with winning a postseason series first. And I think once they, if they get past that hurdle, which I think they will, then they'll kind of take it day by day.
- [30:36]
Zena Kaeda
I gotta see Cade as an orchestrator and Jalen in that back line with Chet and Hartenstein. Available. Sign. Excuse me. Available. I gotta see it to believe it. We'll see what happens.
- [30:49]
Hunter Patterson
But I feel you and jb. JB kind of called him just jd Unstoppable. And it's like we see it tonight, but like you said, we want to see it against some of the more elite defenders in the league.
- [31:03]
La Murray
Hunter, the thing that makes me, and probably makes everybody who is following this business team very uncomfortable is the shooting. I don't like saying it's a make or miss league because look at the Pistons. They're top of the east, top of the NBA in terms of win percentage, and they are very comfortably in the bottom third as far as shooting quality in the league. And they are one of the very worst three point shooting teams as far as volume goes. That first quarter you saw like they missed every single shot they took outside the paint. Now you can win a game by defending and dominating the paint like they do, but where is the shooting going to come from? Is it going to come from a guy like Kevin Herder who they traded for is like, how do they overcome that? Not just now, but obviously when it starts to get to seven game series?
- [32:04]
Hunter Patterson
Yeah, they were nine for 27, I want to say tonight. So to your point, they don't even shoot a lot of threes relative to the rest of the teams in the league. And I mean the reality is it's going to be a challenge. Like there's no way around the fact that teams are going to game plan for Duncan Robinson. They're going to try to limit him as best as possible. I think there's some just solace in the fact that Duncan has been in this situation for the bulk of his career in Miami as the guy who teams really try to key in on as usually the team's best three point shooter. But there's also going to be a huge responsibility for Cade and I think he understands that and welcomes that. If he doesn't shoot well from three, it's going to be challenging most nights. And Herter to your point, he did get some minutes tonight. JB mentioned it's not easy to try to fit him in when the team's been playing well. You have to find rotations that allow him to get some confidence before the postseason gets here. But he potentially could be someone who steps in and and looks more like the Sacramento or Atlanta version of himself who was 40, roughly 40% 3 point shooter. But yeah, I mean the reality is like they understand they're not the best three point shooting team. That's gonna cause extra, I guess pressure on, on Duncan, on Cade, on Javante, potentially off the bench to try to make some threes and they're going to continue to try to lean into their bread and butter which is pain points which they had 70 of tonight. But again that'll be a lot easier said than done in the postseason.
- [33:47]
Zena Kaeda
I always like the fact that Kevin Herder can come in and not only knock down shots, but because of his size he could do some of what he was doing, setting back picks, setting his teammates up. You saw Caris Lavert be a beneficiary of that and we are always the beneficiary of having Hunter Patterson join us on the NBA Daily. Thank you so much. You guys can go read him over@theathletic.com as well as all of our amazing writers, we have the world's best sports journalism. And make sure y' all drop some love on our pod. Whether you're listening, listening wherever you're listening to your podcast or watching on YouTube, we know you love us. We want to know you love us. Drop those five stars. All right? I am Zena K. Thanking Hunter Patterson and Law Murray for joining us as well as you for listening. That's gonna be it for the NBA Daily. Have a good one.
- [34:47]
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