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- [00:00]
Narrator
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Dave DeFore
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Esperahenny
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Esperahenny
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That's like endless plus one.
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- [00:49]
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- [02:11]
Narrator
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM. This season we'll be using BETMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM, here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least ten dollars. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic.
- [02:47]
Advertiser
See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPENY or text hopeny467-8369 In New York, call 1-800-next step in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 In Massachusetts, 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico. First bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel.
- [03:12]
Narrator
Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BETMGM yet, use bonus code theathletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [03:34]
Dave DeFore
Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for May 26th, 2025. I'm Dave DeFore here with Esperahenny. Coming up, the Knicks pull off an improbable comeback and save their playoff lives. And we're going to talk a little bit about game three in the west and what to look for in game four between the Wolves and Thunder. Good morning everybody. Good morning.
- [04:00]
Esperahenny
S Good morning Dave.
- [04:03]
Dave DeFore
My goodness.
- [04:04]
Esperahenny
Good night to have you back, sir.
- [04:05]
Dave DeFore
Yes, yes. Good to be back. Good night. Pacers. Wow. Blowing a 20 point lead for the Indiana Pacers. Usually they're the ones mounting the 20 point comebacks, but the Knicks, no strangers to 20 point comebacks now completing their third 20 point comeback win of the playoffs. They just, they just refuse to do anything easy or normal, including this game. As I like I thought the game was over. I obviously that would have been a 30 lead series lead for the Pacers. I mean middle of the second quarter it's a 20 point game. The Knicks just looked flat from the start. The Mitchell Robinson, you know, lineup change didn't really have too much of an impact. Although we'll get into that. Didn't wasn't a game changing lineup change for them. And yeah, somehow they, they pulled this off.
- [04:57]
Esperahenny
I was getting ready to eulogize the New York Knicks.
- [05:00]
Dave DeFore
I was, I was already thinking Tom Thibodeau, where, where, who's coaching the Knicks next year?
- [05:05]
Esperahenny
Right? Yeah. And that might still be a question after the series, who knows. But this is not the day to do that Carl Anthony Towns just saved the New York Knicks season. He was Incredible in the fourth quarter, 20 points in that fourth quarter. And it's funny, it was sort of like an inverse of game one, where Aaron Neesmith went off and scored 20 points in that fourth quarter. And now it's Cat in Indiana answering back. The shot making was ridiculous. Like he was hitting these wild three point shots. He was driving to the basket against Miles Turner, finishing through traffic, finishing through contact. It's everything you'd want out of Karl Anthony Townsend. It's interesting because me and you were texting and I was very like, like a disappointed dad. I was disappointed about Carl Anthony Towns and his defense and the way that he was playing through the first three quarters of this game. Completely changed it in the fourth quarter. And the Knicks changed their defense too, right?
- [06:01]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, absolutely. And we should talk about that because the Knicks, The Knicks fought through foul trouble. Yep. Jalen Brunson had four fouls before halftime. Cat had three. I mean, that was part of the reason why his defense just fell off a cliff, right? I mean, yeah, he's constantly put into drop to avoid, you know, the, the bad fouls. And then he picks up three. Just a couple of those were just, just made no sense. Right. And so put them in this bad position in the first place. But then, you know, they go in this nice run starting about three minutes left in the second quarter and they, they hit that three with Mikhail Bridges, hit that three like five seconds left in the half and you say, oh, okay, well, they found some life, found some energy. But the real thing was Brunson and Cat being in, in foul trouble the way they were. I mean, Cat picked up, or excuse me, Brunson picks up his fifth foul later and has to sit for a long time. But the foul trouble really unlocked their defense because it actually helped. Yeah, it helped them. They were able to play an extra defender. So while Brunson was sitting, you had Cat out there leading the offense. I mean, his, his like we, like you talked about, he was hit. He had a 30 footer. You know, he had that huge dunk. But the truth was they were causing so much chaos on the defensive end and just had the Pacers. The, the Pacers offense was just held still in half court.
- [07:18]
Esperahenny
This was the most bogged down we've seen the Pacers offense in this series and maybe in these playoffs in general. And I think a part of that is one part. The Pacers and Halliburton being a little indecisive, especially in the clutch, like you saw him get Switches on Carl Anthony Towns, on Mitchell Robinson and not really take advantage, not even look to try and score. It was more, let me try to get downhill. Let me create a shot for someone else. Usually in those situations, Halliburton has been pretty good at punishing switches. Wasn't the case here in the fourth quarter. The interesting part about the Knicks defense, and this is sort of my pitch for the Knicks and for Tom Thibodeau, Please start Deuce McBride. Just do it. Just rip the band aid off and make him a starter now. Make him a permanent starter for next season. Make. Because the way this guy guards at the point of attack really enables you to play Carl Anthony Towns more. And to your point, about like staggering Brunson and Cat. I think you could work with both of them being there. If you have Deuce who can cover up some of the issues that Brunson has at the point of attack, yes, you're still going to be able to put Brunson and Cat in. Brunson and Cat in actions, but having that extra guy defensively feel like it's the way to go.
- [08:31]
Dave DeFore
Well, it also makes sense for the offensive end because it's another guy who can shoot and dribble and shoot off. Dribble. By the way, I mean, Deuce McBride, he is a threat to score. I, I think I'm with you on that. You know, the moving Mitchell Robinson, I understand it like it made sense. You pair Cat with a big. Who can, who can operate behind him. Obviously the offensive rebounding, which was big. I mean, this first quarter. I mean, his offensive rebounding. Mitchell Robinson's offensive rebounding got them extra points. I mean, it just. Yeah. Right off the bat. So you saw a little bit of what they were thinking there. But the, the offensive end becomes the problem when you have Mitchell Robinson out there and it's just because it takes away driving lanes, because he has to operate in the dunker spot. They don't run a ton of pick and roll. Like, it's not like Jalen Brunson's out there throwing lobs to Mitchell Robinson, you know, five, five times a game. So I think I'm with you. You know, again, playoffs, man, we need another guy who can, who can shoot and dribble. That. That is always the story.
- [09:27]
Esperahenny
It's almost as simple as that. And it's. We'd be remiss to not mention the fact that this, the Aaron Neesmith ankle thing kind of switched gears. Momentum, in a really weird way, is fickle in basketball where One guy goes down, he's obviously essential to their defense, to the Pacers defense. And I think that gave the Knicks a little bit of life to be like, all right, let's try to cut into this lead. You mentioned them ending it by, I think it was like 10 or maybe 13 by the end of the fourth quarter.
- [09:56]
Dave DeFore
13.
- [09:57]
Esperahenny
And then they were able to answer back. So I just. I think it's moments like these where you look at it and you're like, can the Knicks. Can the Knicks even up in game four? Can. Like, did they find something? Or is this just desperation? You know, a team that is looking at their season being lost and answering back in a major way with this huge comeback?
- [10:17]
Dave DeFore
Well, okay, so the Pacers had not shot well at home in the playoffs. Now, I. I don't put a lot of weirdly.
- [10:24]
Esperahenny
Weirdly bad in game threes so far.
- [10:26]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, so they were 5 of 25 from 3. I mean, just really just couldn't. Couldn't put the ball in the basket, which has not been the problem for them in the first couple games. You know, Obie Toppin was fantastic in that first half in that big run. And, you know, you think about the speed of the Pacers, that wasn't in this game. You know, only when Obi Toppen was out there did I actually feel like they were flying around a little bit. And so, you know, I start to wonder maybe they need, you know, let's find a way to get more Obi topping in there. But they just didn't get production from. From the guys that they've gotten it from. I mean, they got 20 out of Halliburton. Siakam was 17, Miles Turner with 19. But, you know, you didn't have a big nem hard game. I mean, these guys weren't hitting threes. They weren't even really getting the threes up, which is, again, credit to the Knicks defense.
- [11:14]
Esperahenny
Yeah, it was a credit to the Knicks defense. And like, I think they found something in that fourth quarter against Halliburton where they were scram switching. And for the folks at home, that's basically like, you know, they were presenting it as if they were going to go into drop coverage with Cat, and then the defender who was guarding Halliburton would pop out and get back onto Halliburton. And so they were kind of disguising what they were doing in a lot of ways. And that confused the Pacers offense a little bit. They also iced out Pascal Siakam in the final four minutes of the game. Like they just said you're not going to get the ball. We're not going to give you a post mismatch. For you to go one on one against that was basically Indiana's only source.
- [11:53]
Dave DeFore
That was part of their problem offensively, to be honest with you. Going to him, going to Siakam in the post too much because again, the Knicks stalled their offense out and instead of getting out and getting into some actions, they just were looking, you know, a couple times it was Josh Hart and you know, Siakam can certainly get you a bucket that way, but your team wasn't going to find rhythm through Pascal Siakam. Right.
- [12:14]
Esperahenny
You're always better when the ball is flying around. That's exactly how Indy likes to play. They didn't get a chance to do that in the fourth. Yeah, it's just, it's, it was a weird win. It. This series has been really weird, Dave, the whole time. Game ones of game three, just strange.
- [12:29]
Dave DeFore
Well, I mean, you know, there's been some talk again the Mitchell Robinson lineup change. This almost happened against the Celtics. You know, this has been, this has been a brewing sort of situation because the Knicks starters have just gotten boat raced in the playoffs. You know, they've not been performed well.
- [12:46]
Esperahenny
Yeah, yeah, they have not been good in the regular season, honestly either. I mean, we, we have a couple of writers. James Edwards III has written about the fact that this Knick starters have not played well, especially in 2025, I believe through over 400 minutes in 2025, they're like minus 1.5 net rating. In the playoffs they're a minus 8 net rating. So it was, it was due for a change, I guess. Hats off. Credit to Tom Thibodeau for making the change at this point with the desperation involved in this game. I think the thing I want to credit also is Josh Hart because it's not easy to be the guy. And he talked about this pregame where he's like, look, I can't be talking about sacrifice and making the right plays, et cetera, et cetera if I'm not willing to come off of the bench. So if it happens, it happens. Credit to him for being that guy. And also in the fourth quarter, huge rebound.
- [13:38]
Dave DeFore
I mean, it's Josh Hart. Yeah, there was no way Josh Hart was coming off the bench and not making like a huge impact. This is the, this is one of the reasons why I do believe it's hard to bench Josh Hart because he.
- [13:51]
Esperahenny
Does all the little stuff. Yeah, yeah.
- [13:53]
Dave DeFore
And Tom, Tom Thibodo, like You know, you think about the way that he coaches and the way that he coaches his guys, especially like Josh Hart is one of the most Tom Thibodeau guys to ever exist.
- [14:03]
Esperahenny
Speaking of tibs, how about going deeper in your bench? Landry Shamit delon, right, playing 13 and 11 minutes, it actually kind of helped.
- [14:10]
Dave DeFore
They both positively had comeback, you know, when, when Brunson was out, you know, Delon Wright, you know, gets a bucket. I mean this is the kind of stuff, this is what the playoffs is all about. And I actually think Landry Shamit could be important for them throughout going through the series because again, another threat to shoot. It's just going to space the floor out and especially with Carl Anthony Towns out there. I don't know. I mean, you know, Carl Anthony Towns took seven threes in the game. Yeah, that is more in line with where he needs to be very important. Yeah, totally.
- [14:41]
Esperahenny
Look, game four is if, if Game one, Game two and game three was any description, Game four is going to be cinema. The playoffs have just been nuts.
- [14:50]
Dave DeFore
It's been a great playoffs, but the Pacers and Knicks, I mean, it's just, I don't know, this has been about what we expected. Two kind of crazy teams that managed to always be in these crazy games. And look at that, they're giving us a show. Guys. Stick around after the break. We're going to swing it over to the west, talk Wolves, Thunder 3 a little bit. But we're going to preview game four.
- [15:16]
Advertiser
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- [17:18]
Narrator
As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM. This season we'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a 1500 dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least $10. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic.
- [17:54]
Advertiser
See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 In New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050. Massachusetts 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico. First bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel.
- [18:18]
Narrator
Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code the Athletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [18:44]
Dave DeFore
The Minnesota Timberwolves had a great game plan for game 3s. I mean I, I let me, I'll let you know, peek into my coach's mind a little bit if if you will. They did the the brilliant strategy move of everybody play better, the Thunder play worse and we make all our shots. I mean, it's just. Yeah, saving it for game three. Hat tip to the coaching staff up there in Minnesota. It was a great game for them. You know, again, 43, 101. No team in NBA history has ever lost by 40 points in the playoffs and gone on to win the Finals. Are the Thunder just done after that one?
- [19:23]
Esperahenny
Well, we might see some history this year, you know, we might see some history. Look, you're right in the fact that this was like a perfect game from the wolves. They shot 50% from three. All of everybody was cooking. Even Terence Shannon, who I think is really intriguing, provided some offense and some nice, nice defense. Like good spark for the rookie. But yeah, from this perspective, it's like OKC had 14 turnovers. That's the most turnovers they've had in this series. Right. It was the first time in the postseason that they lost the turnover battle. Right. So as soon as they lose the turnover battle, things start to change for the Thunder. It becomes a little bit tricky for them to get things going offensively and they did not hit their shots as well. So this is another aspect. Also, I do think to credit the Wolves a little bit here, they did tweak defensively how they were guarding Shai, right, Pick up points, making it so that he doesn't have tons of ball pressure. It's more about picking him up at half court than at full court. Free throw line totally kept him in, kept it out of that mid range area too. They're like, we're not going to let you get into that mid range area. We're going to make it tighter for you. We're going to force you to be a playmaker. And that's sort of the game plan that I, I wanted them to deploy through game one and game two anyways. It was like, go with what Denver has already shown you, blueprint wise works against this team. We'll see if it works for game four.
- [20:42]
Dave DeFore
Well, let's talk game four because the expectations that the Wolves are going to shoot it like this, I, I mean 20 for 40 from 3 is pretty absurd. I don't expect them to shoot like that. But this is more in line with what I expected coming into the series where they would have a game here and there, you know, where they have a huge explosion like this. So they are certainly capable of shooting the ball this well. But I think for sustainability sake, if just their role players will play up to their regular season standard, this series would have felt closer in the first two games, right? Like totally this game Three, everyone kind of breaks out. But if they just got an average production, you know, it would have brought them much closer in the first two. So looking ahead to game four, our bet, MGM pick of the day. We're going to wind up picking this. This game. We're going to pick a winner. But as we're looking at game four, like, what do you think is the key for the Timberwolves in game four?
- [21:39]
Esperahenny
I think OKC is going to respond defensively in a major way. Right. They're going to do a better job of not allowing guys to get open shots from three, because I think the Wolves kind of into what OKC likes to do defensively and pinching off and hitting the corners and all that type of stuff to really open up their shot making from three. I think OKC will do a little bit better at rotating out, be a little bit crisper. I mean, we've seen this time and time again they are the best defensive team in the NBA. They will respond defensively. I expect that, that. How does that match for the Timberwolves? What they need, they need a huge game from Julius Randle and Anthony Edwards. When things get tight, it's on your stars to make those shots, to make the reads, to make the passes out of certain situations where it might be tighter. The, the passing window might be a little bit tighter than it was in game three. It's on them. That's basically they need to have a really, really good game. And I think it'll be on the stars to determine who ends up winning this one. So it's can SGA, can JDub pull it out or is it Randall and Ant?
- [22:42]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, I mean, listen, the Thunder, I think when you, when you consider their consistency, especially not turning over the ball.
- [22:49]
Esperahenny
Yeah.
- [22:49]
Dave DeFore
I just can't imagine them having a game as bad as game three was. But looking in at just how they can get Shay going because I think that that will be important ways to get Shay going. I think get. Get Rudy Gobert involved as much as you can, try to get him in foul trouble because that actually has been a key for, for Minnesota opponents all year when you can get him out of there. Their defense is not nearly as good with Nas Reed and especially when it's Reed and Randle, even though Randall has been better in the playoffs. But I think just trying to draw Gobert out and get him involved in as many actions as possible early on be huge. I mean, you look at the difference for the Knicks, you know, it was a positive for them when their guys got in Foul trouble. But you know, if you, if you can clean up the paint for, for Shea, you know, your life gets a little bit easier.
- [23:39]
Esperahenny
Yeah. The strategy for Minnesota is don't turn the ball over and don't foul. And if you lose one of those things, it's going to be a lot harder for you to pull off a win against okc. So it's. I think the turnovers. I was talking to John K. About this this week, but like, he, he believes that this turnover situation is not something they're going to overcome. They're usually a turnover prone team. The fouls, the defense, the mistakes that they can make on that end, that's much more fixable. So can they just not foul?
- [24:06]
Dave DeFore
Right.
- [24:06]
Esperahenny
Can they just be clean with the way that they're guarding Shay? Chris Finch mentioned it post game. He's like, hey, we, we actually played a pretty clean game against SGA and go figure, we win by 40.
- [24:16]
Dave DeFore
There was a great photo or still taken from SGA on a drive where all three of the Wolves defenders are leaning away from him and he's making a face like he's getting fouled. I just thought that actually demonstrated kind of the way that they guarded in that, in that game. You know, they were doing a little bit of the Matador defense right toward him to avoid the contact.
- [24:40]
Esperahenny
Yeah.
- [24:41]
Dave DeFore
So. And then I think that for the Thunder, you got to get more out of chat and you got to get more out of Jalen Jdub. You just, you know, again, 13 points. That's, you know, it would. It was an early night for them, but you just need, you need scoring.
- [24:55]
Esperahenny
They will be well rested for game four. Let's just say that they will be very well rested for game four. I. Look, I, I expect this one to be close. I think this will be the game. Yeah. In the series that determines it. All right. If Minnesota somehow wins this game in game four. Now we're looking at. Okay, the Wolves have figured something out. They're heading to OKC in a 2, 2 series and they only have to win two more games. If OKC wins this, obviously they're up 3:1 and they're one win away from the NBA Finals. And you know, we're talking about something differently here, but this, I think this is the game, if you're watching from a casual fan perspective, where you're like, okay, this will determine it all. Game four usually is that.
- [25:33]
Dave DeFore
It's funny because we, we kind of present these. You know, Both series were 2, 0. Yeah. Game three won by the, by the team. That was down. Right. So two one, and we both, you know, or we tend to have this thing where we kind of have a sigh of relief. Oh, okay. Well, hey, not going to get swept. Truth is, if you go down three one, you're likely to lose two. So you need to have that same sort of desperation in game four. And this is where I do think Minnesota. You know, I just haven't seen that from them. You know, the desperation basketball. But that has equaled winning. That's one of these things that, that you do see from. From the team that win championships.
- [26:09]
Esperahenny
Let me answer. Let me ask a question back at you. Okay, so obviously, two teams right now down two. Oh, they just won their game threes this weekend. Right. Who do you give a better chance of winning game for, Knicks or Wolves?
- [26:20]
Dave DeFore
Well, there's our bet. MGM pick for game four. I think the Wolves are going to win game four. It just. It feels like maybe they. They took the. The lids off the basket, so to speak. You know, these guys have, I mean, Dante DiVincenzo essentially just forgot how to shoot the basketball over the last six weeks. And so, you know, for these guys to see so many shots go in, I think that that has to have, you know, an effect on morale.
- [26:44]
Esperahenny
Yeah, right. I'm gonna go with the Knicks. I kind of. For some reason, I feel weirdly about this series that it's just compatible. It's a strange series, right?
- [26:56]
Dave DeFore
Yeah.
- [26:56]
Esperahenny
The road team won the first two games, and now we got a home team that's. That's lost their road three. It just. It's a strange series. There's comebacks, there's outlier performances. I think there's a world where the Knicks pull it off and tie it. Go to New York Pacers.
- [27:11]
Dave DeFore
Knicks is very close. Right. Like, look at the first two games of the series. It was pretty close. So.
- [27:17]
Esperahenny
Yeah.
- [27:17]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, I'm. I'm with you. I think they. That is a closer series as far.
- [27:22]
Esperahenny
As the talent matchup than okc, Minnesota.
- [27:24]
Dave DeFore
But I think the Wolves, I think the Wolves, I think they're in good shape. I think they're in good shape. They play well at home. You know, I mean, it's such a funny cliche to bring up, but they really do. Those guys shoot so much better at home.
- [27:35]
Esperahenny
So what's the thing they say, you know, the series doesn't start until a team wins on the road or whatever.
- [27:40]
Dave DeFore
Right? Yeah. Who do you have gave for?
- [27:44]
Esperahenny
Oh, I'm going to take okc. Yeah, I think I'm going to take.
- [27:46]
Dave DeFore
You think it's over?
- [27:47]
Esperahenny
Yeah, I don't think it's over, but I think it's over. It's just. Look, I think this was a really, really great, perfect performance for Minnesota. I just trust the team that's won 68 games and looked as dominant as they did through Game one and Game two to answer in a way that that makes them a finalist. That's basically what I'm, I'm banking on a pretty good horse here. You know what I mean? In terms of this game, it's not like I'm, I'm providing an upset happening or something like that, but yeah, okay. See.
- [28:21]
Dave DeFore
Okay, well, we'll find out. That's gonna do it for the show, folks. Thank you guys for listening. For Esperahenny I'm Dave Dufour and this has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.
- [28:57]
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