Does Giannis want out of Milwaukee?

Summary

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The Athletic NBA Daily

Episode: Does Giannis Want Out of Milwaukee?

Date: December 4, 2025

Hosts: Dave DeFore & Zena Keda

Featured Guest: Eric Nehm (The Athletic, Bucks beat writer)

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Overview

In this episode, Dave DeFore and Zena Keda break down the most significant NBA stories: a monster night from Denver’s Jamal Murray, positive signs for the new-look Dallas Mavericks, and, most pressingly, the recent turmoil surrounding Giannis Antetokounmpo and the Milwaukee Bucks. The spotlight falls on Giannis’ reported frustration, a potential trade request, and what it means for the Bucks’ present and future, with insights from Bucks beat writer Eric Nehm.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Denver Nuggets: Jamal Murray Drops 52 (02:03–10:15)

• Jamal Murray’s “Blizzard”: Murray erupts for 52 points (10-11 3PT) against the Pacers, stepping up in a crucial spot with multiple starters out.

• Murray’s Evolution: Historically labeled “underrated” due to inconsistent prior playoff performances, Murray is drawing praise for becoming the reliable All-Star Denver needs alongside Jokic.

• Two-Man Excellence: The Jokic-Murray pairing leads the NBA’s two-man lineup stats, underlining their chemistry and importance.

• Nuggets’ Depth and Defense: With Christian Braun and Aaron Gordon sidelined, Denver’s defense has cratered (29th in DefRtg over last 10 games) but new depth pieces are getting reps.

  "When Jokic looks tired like he did in that loss the other night, they need Jamal Murray. And so far this season, he has looked like an All Star that he needs to be…unless [Murray] is having the season that he has, 1000% [this team isn’t as good]."
  —Dave DeFore (04:38)

  "There’s only been one more guard that has had as many games with 50 plus points with as good as shooting from the floor as Jamal Murray…and that is Michael Jordan.”
  —Zena Keda (05:24)

2. Dallas Mavericks’ Rookie Breakouts (11:01–16:44)

• Ryan Nembhard’s Emergence: Nembhard, thrust into a starting PG role, posts back-to-back double-doubles—a first for a Mavs rookie since 2019.

• Cooper Flagg’s Growth: The Mavericks’ rookie forward continues to impress, averaging 20+ points, 7 rebs, 4 ast over his last five games.

• Team Chemistry & Future Outlook: Veteran core (AD, Klay Thompson) and new faces are meshing; the narrative pivots from early-season despair to cautious optimism for Dallas’ future.

  "Ryan Nembhard found money, gem, you know, diamond in the rough…They have stumbled upon greatness in Ryan Nemhard. He is so poised…"
  —Zena Keda (12:17)

  “AD and Cooper Flagg learning to play off each other is actually kind of interesting.”
  —Dave DeFore (14:06)

  “For Dallas Mavericks fans, you’re looking at the bright side here and you’re like, this is good, right? We’re not tanking and there’s positive wins happening.”
  —Zena Keda (15:44)

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3. The Giannis Situation in Milwaukee (21:14–34:35)

Background and Frustrations (21:14–25:12)

• The Bucks are just 10–13, with a 7-game losing streak and recent loss to the Washington Wizards prompting existential franchise questions.

• Giannis’ engagement and happiness are constant front-office concerns; he’s publicly outlined his championship-or-bust mentality.

• Trade rumors swirl after a report by Shams Charania triggers headline anxiety for Bucks fans.

  “I think one of the things that we found at our reporting at the Athletic is that, yeah, everyone's frustrated. Giannis is frustrated. He would like to win more. He's always made it very clear that competing for championships is what he wants to do.”
  —Eric Nehm (22:37)

  “When the trade rumors started… he came to us at training camp and said, when I am here, when it says Milwaukee Bucks on my chest, I am here, 10 toes down.”
  —Eric Nehm (24:28)

Changes From Past Offseasons (25:12–26:42)

• Speculation about Giannis as a Knick fueled summer conversation, but he publicly committed to Milwaukee at the time.

• Losing exposes cracks; Milwaukee’s record is now unacceptably poor for a star of Giannis’ stature.

  “How did we get here from that Knicks conversation… to now, it could be bubbling up again?”
  —Zena Keda (25:12)

Current State and Internal Accountability (28:41–30:00)

• No formal trade request from Giannis has been made as of the episode.

• The Bucks are making internal efforts to regroup, including a team meeting led by Bobby Portis resolving to reach higher standards.

  “There is a level of accountability amongst the team…They know it's not acceptable to lose the game. That, to me was like, a good sign.”
  —Eric Nehm (29:19)

Can Milwaukee Improve Enough? (30:00–33:16)

• Key health issues—Kevin Porter Jr.’s reintegration is helping, but skepticism remains about Milwaukee’s talent ceiling.

• The market is thin, and the Bucks lack assets for major trades; the Dec. 15th trade window looms.

  “If we rattle off 10 in a row, all of a sudden, this will magically disappear… If you're winning, none of this is a story.”
  —Eric Nehm (31:30)

  "Giannis will always be the most interesting story in the world... This is always the conversation when your standard is I want to compete for championships."
  —Eric Nehm (32:20, 32:29)

The Perennial "Will He Stay?" (33:16–34:35)

• This annual drama has become a fixture for Eric and Bucks watchers since 2018; Giannis’ high standard ensures perpetual pressure on Milwaukee’s front office.

• Episode closes with clear uncertainty: Milwaukee’s future hinges on keeping their star happy through progress or major moves.

  “As of today, you know, the team is 10 and 13. That's not where they want to be. It's a game better than where they were on December 3rd when we started this conversation. But now they're in a place where they're 10 and 13 and they're going to try to find their way through it.”
  —Eric Nehm (34:16)

  “We're gonna wind up doing this in year nine, by the way. I'm just gonna say it right now. We're gonna do this next year. I hope he doesn't get moved. I hope he doesn't want to go. I hope they can figure out a way to make it work.”
  —Dave DeFore (34:36)

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Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• “Jamal Murray, it's not even a flurry when he puts up 52. That's a blizzard.”
  —Dave DeFore (04:00)

• "There’s only one other guard in NBA history, Michael Jordan, who’s had as many 50-plus point games with that efficiency."
  —Zena Keda (05:24)

• “Ryan Nembhard found money, gem…They have stumbled upon greatness in Ryan Nembhard.”
  —Zena Keda (12:17)

• “When the trade rumors started, right before the season, [Giannis] came to us at training camp and said, when I am here… I am here, 10 toes down.”
  —Eric Nehm (24:28)

• "If we rattle off 10 in a row, all of a sudden, this [trade chatter] will magically disappear."
  —Eric Nehm (31:30)

• “Giannis will always be the center of every trade, rumor, conversation, fake trade idea story…that is not going anywhere.”
  —Eric Nehm (32:20)

• “We're gonna wind up doing this in year nine… We're gonna do this next year.”
  —Dave DeFore (34:36)

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Timestamped Breakdown of Key Segments

• Nuggets/Pacers Recap: 02:03–10:15
• Mavericks Rookies & Team Outlook: 11:01–16:44
• Giannis/Bucks Turmoil Deep Dive: 21:14–34:35

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Tone

• Candid and conversational, mixing sharp analysis with humor (“That’s not necessarily a good thing…”)
• Direct attribution to reporting and player quotes, especially on the Giannis segment.
• Honest about uncertainties in Milwaukee (“We’re gonna wind up doing this in year nine…”).

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Summary Takeaway

This episode covers a night of NBA highlights—especially Jamal Murray’s outburst and Dallas’ sudden optimism—but revolves around a detailed, up-to-the-minute look at the Milwaukee Bucks’ most pressing issue: Giannis Antetokounmpo’s happiness, team struggles, and the lingering threat of a trade request. The show, with Eric Nehm's expertise, underscores that this drama isn’t new, nor is it going away—unless Milwaukee can flip the script and start winning.

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Transcript

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[Andrew Schlecht]

Hey, Andrew Schlecht here. The NBA on Prime is back this Friday with another great doubleheader. The action starts with one of the best rivalries in sports as Luka Doncic and the Los Angeles Lakers face Jaylen Brown and the Boston Celtics. Then Cooper Flagg and the Dallas Mavericks meet SGA and the Oklahoma City Thunderstorm.

[Zena Keda]

Thunder.

[Andrew Schlecht]

If you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started today. The Lakers and Celtics, the Mavericks and Thunder both really intriguing matchups. What can the potential Rookie of the Year do against the potent Thunder defense? And then Luca Just doing anything is magical against this frisky Boston Celtics team that is led by Jaylen Brown, who's had a really nice year. Coverage starts Friday at 6:30 Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply Saturday. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details.

[Dave DeFore]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for December 4, 2025. I'm Dave DeFore here with Zena Keda. Coming up, we got a Murray flurry for the Denver Nuggets. They picked up a win against the Pacers. We're going to talk about that a little bit. The Mavs look pretty good. We're going to talk about their rookies and we've got Eric Naim here to talk about the latest on Giannis and the Buc. Man, it's getting sad.

Good morning everybody. What's up Zena?

[Zena Keda]

What up, Dave? How are you?

[Dave DeFore]

Not too bad. All right. We at some Point, guys, I promise you we're going to get good games on the nights that are not NBA Cup. As soon as this cup thing gets all sorted out, we're going to have some normal nights with some actual real matchups with some meat on them. You know, last night, like Xena, another weird night. And. And maybe we're just too like in the weeds every single night. But from a matchup perspective, not a lot happening. Right? Like, no great games, no. No real, like, narrative storylines outside of the Clippers and all the crazy stuff, which they did win. And we'll. We'll talk about for like two seconds because they're bad and it's not that interesting. But yeah, like everything's weird right now.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, things are very weird on the Clippers front, though. Let's be real. Yes, Chris Paul left. That does not necessarily mean, because they won right after his departure, that he was the source of all things bad.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Zena Keda]

If we remember correctly, the Denver Nuggets won the day after Mike Malone was fired. And if we remember even more recently, Chauncey Billups was arrested and the Portland Trailblazers won the very next night. So let's not put too much clout into it.

[Dave DeFore]

Let's just remind everybody that Chauncey Billups was arrested, in case you guys forgot. All right? Hey, look, let's talk some hoops. The Nuggets, they had a get right game last night against the Pacers, right? Pacers having a sad season. This is a game that the Nuggets not just had to win, they were going to win. Right? Especially after the embarrassing loss that they had the other night. Jamal Murray, it's not even a flurry when he puts up 52. That's a blizzard. Jamal Murray was 10 of 11 from 3:52 points, still had six rebounds. He has had a great start to the season. Xena. And you know, we'll talk about Jokic, who did not have a triple double, didn't need it. What Jamal Murray has done to start the season is exactly what we said needed to happen for this team. And we didn't realize they were going to be down two starters at this point of the season. Right?

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Him scoring 52. Right. This needs to be something that he just has in his back pocket when they need it. When Jokic looks tired like he did in that loss the other night, they need Jamal Murray. And so far this season, he has looked like an All Star that he needs to be. And frankly, they. They are not as good as they are right now. Unless he's Having the season that he has 1000%.

[Zena Keda]

And I'm really happy you brought up what Jamal Murray needs to be in comparison or in tie with Nikola Jokic. Because I think last night after the game, Rick Carlisle called Jamal Murray one of the most underrated players in the league. And when you think about why is it, why is someone like Jamal Murray, someone that helped usher a championship to Denver, someone that is putting up the numbers that we've seen. I mean, in all of NBA history, there's only been one more guard that has had as many games with 50 plus points with as good as shooting from the floor as Jamal Murray has had. That is Michael Jordan. Okay. Why someone like that getting the underrated label? And I really think it does go back to the 2023 finals when they, excuse me, even the playoff run, when multiple games throughout multiple series, you saw Jamal Murray score under 20 points, score under 15 points. And it was like it felt as if Jokic had to do so much more to make up for Jamal Murray's kind of hesitance on, on the offensive end or inability to create. But there's a. I think a lot of folks are still anchored to that idea of that Jamal Murray and forgetting that this is a guy that put up 50 points in. In playoff series, that put up 40 points in playoff series, that can absolutely create. And tonight was an. Or excuse me, last night was a masterclass of what he does. Go off the dribble. I mean, so clean of going off the dribble. The two man game with Nicola Jokic and him right now, for all two line two men lineups in the NBA, Nicole Jokic and Jamal Murray, if anyone's played 400 minutes or more, they're number one.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Interestingly enough, if you look at all the two man lineups in the NBA that have played 300 minutes or more, Jamal Murray and Nicole Jokic are part of four of the top five.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, wow.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. Like they, I mean, that's how it ought to be and it should be.

[Dave DeFore]

The best player in the world.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But like it's, it's, it's Jamal Murray being able to showcase just how good good he is at every single type of scoring. Step back. Being able to snake off the dribble, being able to reject screens, shot, fake, side dribble, you name it, he had it in his bag last night. And, and you'll appreciate this, Dave. Ethical hoops. Yeah, okay. Ethical hoops. The way that he was able to play this game, not only get 52 points, he also had zero fouls on defense. And I don't want to skip.

[Dave DeFore]

That's not necessarily a good thing because.

[Zena Keda]

I want to skip over that, especially with the people he was guarding. I mean, he had. He had help. Don't. Don't get me wrong, Denver, they cover him pretty well, too, but he was going up against Matheran, against Nemhardt, against Yakim, and they weren't getting easy buckets on him, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, well, he can guard, and he's. He's kind of solid. Right. Like, so even these bigger guards, like, he's not a huge guy, but he is. He's pretty thick, and so he's able to hold up defensively. And. And he has his moments. Like, he's not like a awful defender, but this team needs him to be a decent defender, which we do see at times, but they. They need it without Christian Brown, they need it without Aaron Gordon. And if he's not going to be a decent defender, he has to be a great scorer. Not just a good scorer, a great scorer. He has to be 30 a night, 35 a night some nights.

[Joe from Vanta]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, because they have to make up for that. And look, they put up 135 on the Pacers. It feels like right now, 130 is kind of their magic number. That's where they're playing a lot of their games. They're hovering around there. If they score 131st, they're going to win. That's not a great way to be, though. So, like, they've just got to get through this stretch.

[Zena Keda]

Talk to the Chicago Bulls about that.

[Dave DeFore]

That's right. They got to get through this stretch without Brown and Gordon and. But the thing is, you know, again, and we talked about this a little bit, like, there's some found money here for them. Spencer Jones, who, you know, he didn't have a great game last night. He only took one shot, but he had a great game the night before. They. They need this newfound depth that they're running themselves into. And, and the reps for these other guys, too. Christian Brown, Aaron Gordon, they fit right in. We know what this team looks like at full strength. This is. I. I think that by the time we get to March, April, we're going to look at this stretch. As long as everyone's healthy, then going to look at this stretch as a little bit of maybe not a blessing, but not. Not the worst thing to happen to the Nuggets. Right. Like, you get the giving.

[Zena Keda]

Absolutely. Giving guys reps, giving guys the opportunity to see how they fit I mean it, especially for me, as you mentioned, putting up 130 points. Like we know what they're capable of. Whenever you have Nicole Jokic on the floor, you know you're going to be able to have some product productivity there. And we know that Jamal Murray can create even if he's not scoring, he's going to give you eight, nine, ten assists. But Christian Brown has been gone ten games. Aaron Gordon's been gone six games. They're not a great defensive team. When they were there as a full. Over the season, they've been 19th in the league in terms of defensive rating in the last 10 games since Christian Brown's been gone, they've been 29th in defensive rating in the last five games with Aaron Gordon and Christian Brown gone, they've been 30th in defensive rating. So they've just keep. They're considerably worse and so forth.

[Dave DeFore]

Can't get any worse. That's the price point.

[Zena Keda]

It can't get any worse. Right? You not only want these role players to be able to come in and score points, it's also a matter of like, how are you going to help with those on off minutes? How are you going to help from a defensive perspective to keep the ship afloat and not let the teams that can score the ball just relentlessly drive up, up to the basket and get the baskets that they want. So I, I really do think that Jamal Murray, he's just got to get some consistency. That was a problem 2023, that was a problem. That's been the whole conversation around his game. But as you men mentioned, in the midst of him Putting up those 52, I'm looking at everybody else. This is your opportunity to get reps, get ready for the spring next year. How are you going to contribute?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, speaking of contributing, the Mavs last night, for the first time since 2019, they had a rookie go back to back games with a double, double, double. I'm talking about Ryan Nemhardt, starting point guard for the Dallas Mavericks. How about that? Yeah, speaking of found money, Ryan Nemhart, starting point guard, last two games for them. Okay, now the Mavericks have won three in a row. Ryan Nemhardt started the last two averaging 21 and a half points, four rebounds, 11 and a half assists. And we have hammered this point home. Xena. Since they attached Cooper Flag to a point guard, he has been better. Cooper Flag got to take over the end of this game. Xena, both ends. The Mavericks kind of have something going on. I like how AD Looks next to Cooper Flag. I'm not going to say that Nico had a vision at all, but I see it.

[Zena Keda]

I see you don't want to give it to him.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, no, because you don't get to say I have a vision about winning the number one pick and trading away Luca Doncher, who is a surefire. He's already a basketball hall of Famer, not an NBA like necessarily. But yeah, you don't get, you don't get to pass on that. But man, it looks, it's at least fun.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. And I'm so, I mean, Ryan Nemhard found money, gem, you know, diamond in the rough. Find all the terms you can say about the fact that they have stumbled upon greatness in Ryan Nemhard. He is so poised. I mean in those, in those. You talked about the 11 1/2 assists over two games. 10 assists and 13 assists. And in only one of those games he had a turnover. In that game, it was one turnover.

[Dave DeFore]

It's so hard, Xena, not to just compare him to his brother immediately.

[Zena Keda]

I know, but that's exactly what I was going to say. This is literally Andrew Nemhard 2.0. And the great part about it is that what's different for Andrew this year is that there is no Tyrese Halliburton. So he's going to have to shoulder more of the offensive role as well as the creation and defense that he's been able to do both sides in Dallas. Ryan Nemhard has trees around him. All he has to do is make sure that the ball safely crosses over and he keeps his eyes up, which he does. And he was able to have he zips passes to Cooper Flag in the right places. He was able to get folks it again with AD and Cooper Flag out on the floor. You know that AD is a passing big. You know that AD is someone that can stretch the floor and you know that Cooper Flag likes to create off of someone. He was so pivotal tonight. Cooper Flag being able to play on the wing and utilizing his size to get past folks and what you can do that when you don't have to worry about the best defender trying to take the ball away from you as you cross half court. Ryan Mhard got that top that, that role tonight and he was cooking even before. You talk about the 13 assists, the way that Jovic, the way that anyone that was trying to get in front of him, his handle is so tight and he's so confident and he was just going right by folks. Like I'm so excited about Random.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm assuming his Their dad maybe taught him how to dribble. But these guys, they have, like, they have a tight. They have a tight, tight handle. You cannot pick their pocket without fouling them. They don't like, like you said, they throw. Every single pass that they throw is a game pass. Like, there's no lazy pass, period. And I also, I'm glad you brought passing big. Anthony Davis had a really nice game passing the basketball didn't have a lot of assists, but there is a little bit of this big to big stuff with him and Cooper Flag that. If you guys haven't been watching the Mavs, look out for that because AD and Cooper Flag learning to play off of each other is actually kind of interesting.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, it's Chef's kiss, Dave.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's.

[Dave DeFore]

The Mavericks are not big on bigs, right? Exactly. But the Mavericks are this interesting story because they were so sad to start the year. We maybe have forgotten about them a little bit, but all of a sudden I don't feel as bad about them as I do the Clippers, the Pelicans, these other teams that are losing without doing it on purpose. The Mavericks like their future looks so bright.

Compared to running the floor.

[Zena Keda]

Absolutely. We, I mean, we just talked about AD who had a 17 and 17 double double barely. Right. We've talked about, and I don't want to say ad nauseam, but we have talked about Cooper Flag in the last five games, over 20 points a game, seven rebounds, four assists. Like that's what he's producing. And of course, Ryan Nemhardt. But like, Klay Thompson looks great too. Like he's hitting big shots. Najee Marshall's in the corner knocking down, catching shoots. Like everyone's clicking. Max Christie is. Has been a really great wing player that we saw him do that last year when he was brought over in the trade, have a good start. But then he tapered off a little bit. He's finding himself in the right places alongside Orion Nemhard. Everything about this team is starting to click. And I do think outside of the basketball, there's something to be said about everything they've had to go through. All the noise they've had to listen to. You can kind of see that they've kind of like coagulated around each other and said, f all that, let's focus on what we can do out on the floor. And there's already like this, like this camaraderie. They had Kayla Martin on the mic last night, and Caleb Martin wasn't even playing in the game really, but just the way that they talked on the bench about what they're seeing and how they uplift each other. Like this is for, if you're a Dallas Mavericks fan, you're, you're looking at the bright side here and you're like, this is good, right? This is good. We don't, we're not tanking, we're not taking and we're not tanking. And there's, there's positive wins happening. Three wins in a row. Defense is good. We'll see what happens.

[Dave DeFore]

I, I look, they still need to trade AD away and just reboot around these young guys. But you know, that's a topic for a different day. The fun game.

[Zena Keda]

Well, that's a topic for next in a few weeks.

[Dave DeFore]

That's probably, that's right. I mean, we'll, we'll have our trade primer coming out soon. Guys, stick around after the break. We have Eric late after Giannis went down with a sprained cat or strained calf and asked for a trade request. Man, we're keeping him up late.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Hey, Andrew Schlecht here. The NBA on Prime is back this Friday with another great doubleheader. The action starts with one of the best rivalries in sports as Luka Doncic and the Los Angeles Lakers face Jaylen Brown and the Boston Celtics. Then Cooper Flagg and the Dallas Mavericks meet SGA and the Oklahoma City Thunder. If you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started today. The Lakers and Celtics, the Mavericks and Thunder both really intriguing matchups. What can the potential Rookie of the year do against the potent Thunder defense? And then Luka Just doing anything is magical against this frisky Boston Celtics team that is led by Jaylen Brown, who's had a really nice year. Coverage starts Friday at 6:30 Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details.

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[Dave DeFore]

You know the NBA is a funny place. You could start your afternoon hearing that your best player has put in a trade request. You can watch him get hurt in the first three minutes of a game and then you can beat the best team in the Eastern Conference. If you're the Milwaukee Bucks here to talk about it. Eric Naim Eric I'm going to start with A simple question. What is going on?

[Joe from Vanta]

That's a great question. Many things. Many things are going on, and they're all going on at once. And that leads to a wonderful life for a beat writer. Very busy and very fun Christmas themed episode. Right?

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Joe from Vanta]

I mean, so I guess, like, the simplest place to start is going into tonight. The Milwaukee Bucks were 9 and 13. That's not where they wanted to be. They lost seven straight games. They won one game, which is great. And then they lost to the Washington Wizards. And losing to this year's version of the Washington Wizards is going to create questions for any franchise and no ill will towards the Washington Wizards. Chris Milton, great guy, love him, but they're just not a very good basketball team. So if you lose to them, people are going to start asking questions, and they're really going to start asking questions. When you are 9 and 13 and you have one of the best players on the planet and he looks disengaged and disinterested in parts of a game, like, those things are all going to happen. So I think that, to me, is like, the biggest thing. That's what was going on in Milwaukee heading into Wednesday's game. And then obviously there was the report from Shamshirani at ESPN about conversations that are starting between the Bucs or continuing between the Bucs, however you want to phrase what conversations exist between the Milwaukee Bucks and Yanosta de Kumbo. Those things are happening, and everyone's frustrated at the moment. And I think one of the things that we found at our reporting at the Athletic is that, yeah, everyone's frustrated. Giannis is frustrated. He would like to win more. He's always made it very clear that competing for championships is what he wants to do. He wants to believe in the team, and that's all great. Doc Rivers is not here for a rebuild. That's not why the Milwaukee Bucks hired Doc Rivers. He was hired to compete for championships and to compete at a high level. John Horst has gotten contract extensions because of his ability to, year over year, keep the Bucs in the title conversation at 9 and 13. That is not occurring. That's not what's happening. So you do end up starting to have to think about, all right, how happy is Giannis? How unhappy is Giannis? How is he feeling about the franchise? And these aren't new questions. After 22 games, the Bucks weren't like, man, I wonder how Giannis is feeling. This is the first time we've ever thought about how Giannis Atettokounbo might be feeling in this moment. No, they think about it all the time. That's what the franchise is all about.

[Zena Keda]

But.

[Joe from Vanta]

But I think ultimately.

What this comes down to is how Giannis feels about being here for the season. When the trade rumors started, right before the season, he came to us at training camp and said, when I am here, when it says Milwaukee Bucks on my chest, I am here, 10 toes down. That's what I'm here to do. I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that this team wins. And those conversations end right here and there. He loved the team. He thought they were going to be dangerous, and at 9 and 13, they were not. They were not as dangerous as I think he thought they were at the start of the season. And now you have to have these conversations, and you have to try to figure out where the team is going this season and what it might look like.

[Zena Keda]

And that's the thing everyone is assessing this as. How different is this conversation than the conversation that we heard bubbling up over the course of the summ summer, where we heard Giannis come out and say words like, I want to be a Knick, hypothetically, right there, the conversation of potentially being a Knick, playing under the bright lights of New York. How did we get here from that Knicks conversation that was kind of in the background and shutting it down to now, it could be bubbling up again.

[Joe from Vanta]

Yeah, I think. I think it really is as simple as what the team looks like and how they're playing like. I think one thing that has always been clear to me about Giannis over the years is that when he gets in between the lines, it is about what is going on in between the lines. There's not other motivations. There's not other agendas. It is about, can this team win tonight, and how confident am I in our ability to win tonight? And I'll be honest.

In almost every game he plays, I'm sure he's very confident that they're going to win, because that is the type of player that he is. But I think when you see the team struggle in the way that they did when he was out for four straight games, when you see the team struggle in the minutes when he's not on the floor, I think while you're sitting there and you're on the floor, you're probably wondering, like, okay, what. What is really going on here? How is this team doing?

And that is always going to be a concern. That is always how Giannis is going to judge things. So I think we are still one of the things we Reported there has been no trade request as of yet. Whether or not these conversations are deeper than normal, unusual during the middle of the season, whatever they may be, Giannis has not requested a trade. He's not demanded a trade out of Milwaukee yet. So that still means the. The Bucks can do some convincing. And. And I think tonight, strangely enough, is kind of part of it, right? Like, big win, big win.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

No, it's. It should be.

[Dave DeFore]

If losing to the Wizards makes you want to, like, question, hey, what's going on here? Then you. You know, if. If you watch Giannis get hurt and you watch the way this team played and rallied, I mean, these guys are fighting, like, they might not be good.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

But it's not a lack of effort. And, you know, Doc Rivers, like, to his credit, it's not like he's lost the team here. This is a talent issue. They just got Kevin Porter Jr back. They're reintegrating him. He's had two good games in a row. So let's talk about this the other way, because to me. Look, Eric, we've done this together for a long time, and we've done this with Giannis I don't know how many times over the last four years, you know, since. Since. Basically since the year they've won the title. I feel like once a year, we have the. Is Giannis going to ask for a trade? And I don't think he actually wants to. So the Bucks option is to get better. Is that internal, or is that going out and making some moves? You know, December 15th coming up. Right. Trade, season opens up, they don't have a lot in the cupboard to go out and get stuff with. But what if this was a.

[Andrew Schlecht]

A.

[Dave DeFore]

Look, Giannis, we want to keep you here. He wants to stay. How. How do they improve? Because this team just doesn't have the talent to compete in the east, much less for a title. Like, they can't be top four in the east as they're constructed. Maybe not even a playoff team.

[Joe from Vanta]

Yeah, I mean, I think a couple things, right? So on the way out tonight, you know, we were talking to a bunch of players, and Bobby Portis informed us that they had a team meeting today, that before. Before the trade rumors, before all of that, they, as a team, had gotten together and said, like, we're not meeting our standard. No matter what we're trying to do, we're not meeting our standard right now. And losing games like that to the Wizards is unacceptable. We gotta be on the same page, and we gotta be together. So I think that's the first thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[Joe from Vanta]

Like, there is a level of accountability amongst the team in that they know it's not acceptable to lose the game. I think that, to me was like, a good sign that everyone involved was like, all right. And again, this is. This is before, you know, any reports drop or anything like that. Like, this is the team getting together and saying, we need to be better. So, first of all, I would say that second of all, it's health.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Joe from Vanta]

I know from the outside, there are lot. There's lots of skepticism about Kevin Porter Jr. And how good he is at the game of basketball. I saw him drop 30 points against the Washington Wizards. I saw him drop, I believe, another 26 points tonight, 8s, 7 assists for him as well. And he is a difference maker. I understand that his past indicates that there could be issues or whatever may be he might not have played up to his full potential in other places. He's never been on a good team. All those things are kind of changing right now, and he's showing the world that he might actually be able to keep it together. He might be a good player. So I think that will be the other thing. And then the third thing, like you mentioned, is I do think December 15th is a notable date. That is a time when the whole league starts to think about trading and trying to go out there and do those things. And. And I think one thing that. That stood out to me in Doc Rivers pregame was obviously he took a bunch of questions about the most recent reports and rumors and all these things. And, you know, he kind of got to a spot where, I'll try to paraphrase it, but he's like, guys, let's just call a spade a spade. We're talking about this because we're not winning. We're struggling right now. So that's why this is a story. If we rattle off 10 in a row, all of a sudden, this will magically disappear. That's what happens. And instead of asking, oh, are you going to trade Giannis? Or what's going to happen there? What you'll be asking is, are you guys going to make a move at the deadline and add someone to try to help us win and help us get to the places that we want to go? And I do think, obviously, that's a nice sales job by Doc, and he's among the most elite salesmen. Among the most elite salesmen in the entire league. But there is truth. Like, part of the reason why a used car salesman can sell you something is there is probably a level of truth somewhere in their statement, and there is some truth to that, that this team has not been healthy. This team does think it's better than this, and this team knows that it should be better than this. So I think all of those things kind combined to. Obviously.

Giannis will always be the most interesting story in the world. Giannis will always be the center of every trade, rumor, conversation.

Fake trade idea story, all of that. That is not going anywhere. You mentioned how long we've been doing this together for Defore. I remember telling someone the other day.

This is interesting for me because I've cut. This is year eight for me at the Athletic. At the end of year one at the Athletic, the Milwaukee Bucks lost four straight games in the Eastern Conference finals. After game six in Toronto, report came out that Yanis De Kumbo was thinking about his future and he is trying to figure out whether or not he wanted to commit long term to the Milwaukee Bucks. And that was year one. And you know what I've done in year two.

Three, four, five, six, seven, and now I'm doing it in year eight. And that's not to say he will for sure stay. That's not. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm just saying that he's always a part of this. This is always the conversation when your standard is I want to compete for championships. Every year you're going to put your team in a place where there's a certain level of pressure and there's a certain understanding that you're going to do everything in your power as an organization to put him in that position. And as of now, oh, my gosh, it's December 4th. Sorry, I just realized it's 12:30 in the morning. Hey, guys. But you know, it's a morning show. As of today, you know, the team is 10 and 13. That's not where they want to be. It's a game better than where they were on December 3rd when we started this conversation. But now they're in a place where they're 10 and 13 and they're going to try to find their way through it. And I think it's with everyone involved understanding the stakes of the situation. Not that they didn't already understand that, but there's Wednesday served as a good reminder for everyone that this is what is at stake every single season. Yes. De Kumbo is wearing a Milwaukee Bucks jersey.

[Zena Keda]

And now they have to do it.

[Dave DeFore]

We're gonna wind up doing this in year nine, by the way. I'm just gonna say it right now. We're gonna do this next year. I hope he doesn't get moved. I hope he doesn't want to go. I hope they can figure out a way to make it work. I don't know. We'll see how it goes. Eric Name thank you so much for hanging out late. Go read him over at the Athletic. Got a big story with Sam Amick laying all this out. You know Eric, you're the best, definitely the best Bucks writer that we have at the Athletic and that we have on this show. So thank you very much for hanging out with us. Thanks to Zena Keda. I'm Dave Defort. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.

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[Joe from Vanta]

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