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- [00:01]
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- [01:14]
Eric Naim
My biggest regret is not asking for help sooner because you're not alone.
- [01:19]
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- [01:57]
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- [03:24]
Law Murray
Foreign.
- [03:30]
Eric Naim
Podcast A podcast based on the book written by many of us here at the Athletic. We are here to count down the top 100 players in NBA history and discuss and debate their place in history. I'm your host Eric Naim and with me today is Hunter Patterson and Law Murray of the Athletic. Today we are looking at players 20 to 39 on the list. I'm going to rattle those off. 39 to 20 just so everyone knows who we're talking about, who we're thinking about. I will try to do it quickly. 39 we are going to start with Steve Nash, then Patrick Ewing, Jason Kid, George Mikin, Kawhi Leonard, James Harden, John Stockton, Bob Pettit, Chris Paul. At number 30, Scotty Pippen and then John Havlic, Nikola Yic, Dwyane Wade, Rick Barry, Isaiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Giannis atetokounbo, David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki. So that is our lineup today. 39:20 I think the easiest way to start this off with you guys, both Hunter and Law. I guess that's, I mean we're talking about the best of the best in the history of basketball. I just listed off a bunch of players. Which player we'll start with you. Hunter brought you the most joy or excitement. When I was reading those off you're just thinking in your head like I cannot wait to talk about this player.
- [04:56]
Hunter Patterson
My favorite player is on the list so I was happy to see him as high up as he is. But D. Wade, he's my all time favorite player. I was able to see I it was like an early two or trying to remember the exact year, it might have been like 2007. It was shortly after he won the championship. The warriors were still playing at Oracle, so that was a really fun environment. And I was able to meet D. Wade at that game, get a jersey signed, and he was my favorite player prior to that, but that kind of just sealed it for me. So D. Wade is my guy.
- [05:35]
Eric Naim
All right. Law, what about you?
- [05:38]
Law Murray
I mean, I'm in the book writing about Kawhi Leonard. I mean, I gotta, I gotta say Kawhi Leonard, you know, the. I'm gonna tell a story about what I had to do to get this dude. So of course, he was unfortunately not healthy when this list came out. And I was assigned to get the story on Kawhi, and it was Covid. So I'm up here chasing this dude down for several weeks, trying to get him a chance to talk about his placement on. On this list, right? So we finally go to Oklahoma City, and he's on that road trip. I'm on that road trip and it's like, I, I gotta, I gotta talk to him. He comes out with this coffee cup and this saucer, and it doesn't have coffee in it, right? He's in warmups. He looks like he just rolled out of the hotel. You know, team bus comes and it's a practice. It's not a shoot around. It's a rare practice because the Clippers had a couple days in Oklahoma City. And he comes out and he just. And he just looks at the camera as I'm waiting for him and he's like, snot. It's not coffee, my guy. It's alkaline. Alkaline water. And by the way, he. His hand is so large that the coffee cup, it looks like a normal sized cough cup, might as well have been a little teacup. You know, he just dwarfs this, this, this, this, this china wear or whatever you want to call it, right? And so, yeah, we talk about his placement on a list while he's in the middle of trying to get back from what is what was his most serious injury. And that's the thing with Kawhi. Like, he has achieved so much and yet we all know that he's had so much taken away from him. That part makes me kind of sad. But then he always keeps coming back, keeps coming back and keep showing how great of a player he is. And he's still doing it as of this recording.
- [08:00]
Eric Naim
Yeah. The chapter I wrote in the book is in here as well. I. Looking at number 22, Giannis de Kumbo that was a super fun chapter as well. For the first time, I got him to tell me how he managed to. I mean, it looked like his leg was about to come off in the Eastern Conference finals, and all of a sudden you're thinking, he's out for the season, his career, who knows? And six days later, he played in Game 1 of the 2021 NBA Finals. So I got him to tell that story, which is super fun. Y' all should go read the book, because it is Giannis storytelling, which is probably the best version of Giannis. Like, that dude that can. He can spin some yarn. I will say that. So you can check that out. But the. I will say the player that brought me the most joy is similar to Hunter, my favorite player growing up. Like, Steve Nash. Like, I was a 62 white kid. Like, would you. I was playing point guy. What you think I was going to. Like, that was my guy at that time. Like, watching him win MVPs. Like, I grew my hair out. Like, I was slicking it back during games. I was licking my early Eric pigs. Yeah, man, I. It was. It was crazy. Like, a long hair. And I, again, I was trying to be Steve Nash. So, like, that was. That was my thing growing up. So to see him on this list is really cool, just because I know, like, that is part of why I love the game of basketball and why, I mean, us three are on this podcast and why we all do what we do. Like, that was a big part of my, like, I guess teenage years was like, trying to emulate Steve Nash doing Nash dribbles, doing dribble handoffs, throwing stuff behind my back, like pull up jumpers, pull up threes, like doing the whole thing. So, yeah, that.
- [09:46]
Law Murray
That one.
- [09:46]
Eric Naim
That one's a good one for me. Okay. There's also, like, on this list, so we're all younger guys. We talked about some of the guys that we really liked growing up, obviously guys that we've now gotten a chance to cover in these blessed positions that we're at to. To cover the NBA. But we got to do some history here, right? Like, we got to kind of teach people about the game a little bit. So I have a couple of the. The older players that are on this list, but I guess let's start with Law. Can you give me a book report? You got two guys. Let me see what kind of homework you were doing and how deep you got into the film.
- [10:24]
Law Murray
Well, shoot, man. You talked about Giannis, right? And Eric, I'm pretty sure you was in the building when Giannis dropped 50 in game six, 20, 21 to clinch that championship for the Milwaukee Bucks. Well, the last guy to drop 50 to close the team out in the finals, that was Bob Pettit. Like, and it's, it's interesting. Like, I got to go to the all star game in Cleveland. I think that was 20, 22, and Bob Pettit was there. You know, he's, he got to the host hotel or, or the centerpiece of where everyone's gathering the same time that I did. And I mean, shout out to Bob Pettit. You know, back then he was not yet 90. Like he's 92 now. He's still with us and, but you know, he's moving around pretty good for someone who literally won the first MVP award ever.
- [11:31]
Hunter Patterson
Crazy.
- [11:31]
Law Murray
Ever. It didn't happen before him, man. It was like, we gonna hand out MVP this year. And then they gave it to him.
- [11:39]
Eric Naim
And.
- [11:42]
Law Murray
Look, y' all would have called him a free throw merchant today. Cause that dude got to the line. He got to the line and he got the line intentionally. He led the league in free throw attempts twice. Both of those times that he led the league in free throw attempts, he wound up winning MVPs. He wound up leading the league in scoring. He understood that great scores get to the line. He understood that, you know, the rebounding was going to be significant. Like we correlate the power forward position to rebounding. He dominated the glass. He had a year where he averaged 20, 20, you know, and it wasn't 20 points either. It was like 25, 27 points, something like that. There was a streak where the Celtics, obviously, we all know The Celtics won eight straight titles, what, like nine titles in 10 years? Something like that. And the exception was Bob Pettit, you know, with St. Louis Hawks. I mean, again, not so damn long ago. Eric know about St. Louis? I don't. I ain't never been to St. Louis in my life. The Hawks ain't there no more. So Bob, when you talk about power force, I mean, Bob Pettis legacy is stamped. You know, like, he didn't play power forward at lsu. He play center. You see a lot of guys in college, they'll play center and then they get to the league and their advantage comes a position down. Playing the four. And what does the four mean? Bob Pettis said, even back then, you're playing with facing the basket and attacking from there. You know, maybe you're a little smaller, you're not guarding the biggest guy, but you're still a big on, on the Floor of the tallest athletes in the world. Right. And he dominated, he dominated that position and anybody, I mean his last year in the league he averaged 22 and 12. You know, like Bob was like, I ain't playing at my same level no more. I'm going to be done. Like Anybody who drops 22 and 12 today in NBA's game is an All Star, probably an all NBA pick. So you know, shout out to Bob Pettit, man, like say he's, he's still, he's still with us. So I'm glad that he's still here to get his flowers.
- [14:03]
Eric Naim
All right, Hunter, let's go with one of your guys. I was trying to think through who you have. Let's go Rick Barry. Rick Barry's a little bit closer, that's what I was thinking in the timeline to Bob Pettit. So let's go with Rick Barry.
- [14:14]
Hunter Patterson
Yeah, so I, I obviously his, his career came and went well before I was born, but being in the Bay, I'm born and raised in the Bay and so I am pretty familiar with him but obviously I went back to do some digging. Led the league in scoring twice. I also like the fact that he didn't seem too concerned with efficiency. He was pretty interested in getting buckets which I appreciate. The three point line wasn't really introduced until I believe it was either the second to last or the last year of his career. But I mean he did a lot, I know, just for the warriors and Oakland. But I like how he wasn't really super ball dominant. He did do things off the dribble but I saw a lot of clips of him coming off pin downs and off ball action and I thought that that was pretty cool that he was able to have that many plays drawn up for him to take 28, 29 shots a game. Definitely seemed like a pretty well rounded guy too as far as not just scoring. He averaged seven assists for his career. I mean seven rebounds, five assists for his career. And I know we, we were talking about modern day comparisons. Not sure if we're getting into that right now. We could save that potentially. But the only person that I really saw height wise and the way he comes off pin downs and in off ball action. He scored a lot in the mid range. I was thinking he kind of reminded me of Devin Booker minus a three point shot. He was a more prolific scorer than Book was just based on the fact that he was averaging 36 before the three point line, which is ridiculous. Yeah. So. And he was doing this at 2214 year career and, and I Book was kind of the first person to come to mind just based on their, their work in the mid range. And Book also isn't really the most efficient all the time, but he makes sure he gets his, his field goal attempts up, which I appreciate.
- [16:34]
Eric Naim
All right, so I got George Mikin. I'm thinking, I'm trying to think through the NBA 75 list. He's got to be the earliest player on any of those list is if we're talking about like professional basketball and kind of where it all started. Like I think the NBA is like a merger in 1949 if I'm remembering my history correct. And before that there was like the Basketball association of America, the BAA and the National Basketball League, the nbl. George Mikin played on those teams like he was in those leagues. Like that was like when he got started all the way back in 46. Like you're looking at for his career, you know, you go to his basketball reference page. Like he had a six year peak retired and then came out of retirement for the Minneapolis Lakers. So we're looking at seven years total. But those first three seasons he leads the league in scoring and what you kind of know as modern basketball. Like it exists because George Mikan was so prolific. Like he. We're thinking about goaltending. That exists because George Mikan used to be up there just taking shots off the rim and it was like, oh well, we've never seen someone do this before so I guess we got to make that illegal because that doesn't seem fair. Like he's the only guy that can do it. The following a God widened because of George Mikin. The shot clock again, another creation that kind of existed because George Mikin was just so dominant and no one had any idea what to do with this 6 foot 10, 245 pound dude that could finish with both hands. Like if, if you play basketball at some point I would guess he did the mike and drill and that is shooting layups with your left hand and your right hand. And it started because George Mikan was the first person that figured out like, oh, if I'm the biggest dude in the league and I'm close to the rim, why don't I just use both hands and turn over both shoulders and no one's going to be able to stop this because they've never seen this before. So like a modern comparison, it has to be like Shaq. Like it's got to be someone that's so dominant that you just like have not seen it. Before, like this is like if we're talking about pioneering basketball, people like George Mikin has to be in that conversation. So yeah, that is like the very start of professional basketball in the United States of America. Like George Mikin is going to be there and is going to be a big part of those conversations. So that would be my George Mikin spiel. Let's go Hunter. You talked about. Okay, so Rick Barry, because you're from the Bay, you are now in Detroit and you have a Detroit legend for your other book report.
- [19:20]
Hunter Patterson
Yes, we have Isaiah Thomas. This actually I, I obviously want to mention this for Rick as well. He was an all star every year of his career except the last two. Isaiah is similar for him. He was an all star every year of his career except his last. And even in that last season he was averaging about 15, seven assists and three boards. But I think he, he the numbers are, are what they are. I think he's really respected as at least like a top five point guard in NBA history. But he also just had this Persona that I think some people maybe loved and maybe not so much outside of Detroit, but I appreciated it. He just seemed like the ultimate competitor almost. I want to say his ankle is like completely not something you should be playing on and he fought through that with super high stakes in the postseason. So I like the competitor in him and the fact that he's only 61 for me I'm like 5 9. I'm not really like a super tall player and I've never been obviously. So like I always appreciate smaller guards and for him to be, he was never like a high 20s kind of guy as far as his points per game, but he was a pretty consistent 20 point, almost 2010 guy for the most part. So I. And he was also someone who wasn't reliant on the three. So he was not the most efficient either. But he was doing a lot of his work in the paint mid, mid range utilizing like floaters and things like that to to get his shots off over taller defenders. So I've always appreciated that he wasn't the most concerned with. I won't say what he wasn't the most concerned with. He had a lot of turnovers but he also had a lot of assists. So he still had a pretty fair assist to turnover ratio. And his player comp for me I think is Chris Paul. I would say mainly based on like the height, the way Chris isn't super reliant on the three, not the best three point shooter but they also both really prioritize defense and just kind of little guards getting it done in the mid range. And I think the tenacity that they have can be pretty polarizing for both of them. So you either love Chris Paul maybe not so much. And I think the same goes for Isaiah.
- [21:51]
Eric Naim
Yeah, I think the thing with Isaiah, you mentioned the competitor. Like, I think he can be somewhat forgotten, but it's like, oh, who's the dude that initially was keeping Jordan from winning? Isaiah Thomas.
- [22:03]
Hunter Patterson
Right.
- [22:04]
Eric Naim
Like, okay, who did he beat in the finals? Oh, it was magic in the Laker. Oh, okay. Like everyone that you remember from the 80s and like he was going toe to toe with those dudes and like eventually had beef with all of them because he was just like so competitive. Like, I just think it's so cool. Especially like, I know he's 6ish feet. Like, I don't know if he's actually 6ft. I. I've not stood next to him, but like to go toe to toe with all those dudes, I think is just crazy for Isaiah Thomas. All right, Law, you also had Elgin Baylor. Tell me about Elgin Baylor, man.
- [22:42]
Law Murray
When we talk about how the game is played now, Elgin Baylor was way before his time. Like, we didn't talk about the multiple level of skill that you need to play. We talk about we're going a year and a half, dribble, pass, shoot a lot. NBA draft is at the end of June and Al J. Miller had that to go with what we also talked about, which is high level athleticism. And he's the first guy, especially non center, powerful, big man, whatever you want to call it. Like he's six five Duncan. There are videos of this man dunking the basketball in black and white. Like it doesn't look real, man. And like, like this man, he Euros.
- [23:32]
Eric Naim
Like there's videos of that man Euroing. And we didn't know what to call it, but like that's the type of athleticism Elgin Baylor had.
- [23:41]
Law Murray
Yeah, I mean, you know, call that, call that the DC Hop or whatever you want to call it. Like, I mean Elgin Baylor was a black star in the league that didn't have black stars. Like he played in Minneapolis and then he played for Los Angeles. Like, that dude was box office. They put him on TV where he was a crossover guy because of his ability on the floor. Like it was him and Jerry west and them dudes lost every damn time in the finals, but they were there every damn time. And even now, like when we talk about players having the playthrough stuff, playthrough injuries and what it robs them of and how they have to adjust to it. We saw that from Elgin Baylor from the jump, like his knee was jacked up. 1965. And you look at the numbers, it's like, how did Elgin Baylor go from 38 a game, 27 a game, to not even dropping 20 a game? I mean, dude played a whole year after knee surgery in the 60s and then he recovered his game enough to still have a couple more seasons averaging more than 25.
- [24:53]
Hunter Patterson
I'm so sorry.
- [24:55]
Law Murray
You know, to be able to bounce back and to still produce at a high level again at that time.
- [25:06]
Eric Naim
You.
- [25:06]
Law Murray
Really there, there are a lot of guys who you're like, I would want to see what they look like in a more modern game or today's game. Again, Elgin, Elgin Baylor is, is one, has to be one of the top of the list there. Not just because of his successes, but because of the shortcomings of his career. You know, the injuries, the fact that his, his. When he decided he was done playing, the Lakers took off. They won 33 in a row. They wound up winning their first championship in Los Angeles. As soon as Elgin decided to end his career, I mean, he was on stacked teams, but that team was super stacked. Again, they still had Jerry west. They had Wilt Chamberlain. They wound up having Gail Goodrich. Like they had Pat Riley for, for all that, you know, coming off the bench and whatnot, like Elgin Baylor's career. And again, we lost Jerry west last year. And I was, I got pretty close to Jerry in his, in, in his last years. And Jerry felt for Elgin because Elgin should have had the kind of post career success and admiration that Jerry certainly enjoyed. And the difference was just Jerry was he stayed with the Lakers and Elgin branched off like he tried to coach, you know, he was coaching the New Orleans Jazz. He wound up being an executive with the, with the Clippers. And we all know that working for Donald Sterling, I mean, the only person who persisted for years in that era with the Clippers was Elgin Baylor. And Elgin had to do that job under the worst circumstances ever. Elgin stuck around, but draft picks never stuck around. Free agents never stuck around, had coaches never stuck around. And Elgin had to deal with all of that. And so, you know, rest in peace to Elgin Baylor. We lost him not very long ago. And that's the thing with our, with our history in this league too. We are covering the best of what we've seen in this league. And a lot of those guys are still with us. And, and, and, and yeah, Like, I don't have a great player comparison to Elgin Biller today. Like, I really don't. Like, dude was a tank at the wing position. Duncan hitting shots, making plays for teammates and playing off another great in Jerry West. Like, I'll let, I'll let the rest of y' all come up with that. I was going to say Jaylen Brown, but that just sound. That felt too blasphemous. And I'm, I'm all for blasphemy, but that's too far for me.
- [27:52]
Eric Naim
No, I think he's, he's a one on one. Like the, to do all the things that he was doing at the time he was doing those things. I mean, like I said, like he was Euroing and dunking and doing the whole thing and nobody ever seen that before for like, that's just like not. He is someone that I think kind of gets lost in the conversation because he was unlucky in all those years, not winning championships. But I mean the, the numbers that he put up is, I mean, just kind of kind of crazy. My last book report, John Havlicek. So this one, John Havlick, is fascinating to me. If you had a guess who the leading scorer all time in Celtics history is. I would, I would guess, I'd give people three guesses and John Havlicek would not be one of them. But he is. He leads the franchise in scoring all time. To this day, he leads the Boston Celtics in scoring, which is, I mean, just kind of crazy to, to think through 26,395 points. He's 19th all time on the NBA, all time scoring list. It's, it's kind of crazy to, to think through, you know, playing 16 NBA seasons between 1962 and 1978, and he's just kind of, I don't know, it's a, it's a really interesting career because he was on those dynastic Celtics teams. So like he came off the bench at the start of his career and he really popularized like the sixth man concept. Like any of the great six men that we have now. The ward's named after him like that. That's. The John Avlichek Award is the sixth man of the year award. He won a title in his first four seasons eight times total. But in those first four seasons he was coming off the bench. And to do that, he eventually became a starter. He averages 21 points per game, six rebounds per game, five assists per game. But the thing that like he ends up being really known for is his insane Stamina and his clutch plays and, and I think those two kind of are. They go hand in hand. Like the fact that he could run all day and he was doing all this stuff on both sides of the floor that gives you. Havlic stole the ball, right? Like that's, that's why he's making big plays in that moment. Like that that, you know, clinches the eastern division finals, gives the Celtics a spot in the 1965 NBA Finals, which they eventually win. One of the other great moments of his career in a game that sometimes is referred to as the greatest game in ever played. Three overtimes, it's the 76 finals. It's Celtic Suns. Havich plays 58 of the 63 minutes in that game. 58 minutes is crazy. That is a crazy amount. And at the end of the second overtime, he's the one that hits the bank shot to give the Celtics the lead. Ultimately, Gar Herd hit a clutch shot at the buzzer fors a third overtime. Celtics eventually win. That's his eighth and final championship. And in that eighth and final championship, you know, he's over a decade into his career. You know, I think that's what his 13th or 14th NBA season. He's playing 58 minutes a game, or not 58 minutes a game, but he plays 58 minutes in that game. He hits the big shot. Like, he's just like, he's a tank, essentially. Like a 65 tank. And it's funny, like, we don't have like the tracking data that we have and stuff now, but you know, like, it would be like, oh man, have a check roll. He, you know, he ran three miles tonight or he ran like five miles a night. And it was just like that was his role. Like he was the guy that was going to push the pace and really, like that helped Red Arbach really develop like the depth that kind of made those dynastic Celtics teams. And Havlicek was a big part of that. So, I mean, I don't know, a 6 foot 5 wing that runs all day. I don't even know if I have a good comp for him in the league. I mean, maybe it is someone like, I don't know, maybe it is someone like Tatum. I. I don't know. Like, maybe like that's. He's just kind of doing it all. And it wasn't necessarily that, like he was this insane score that scored all the time or anything like that, but he just kind of did some of everything. Like there's seasons where he averages, you know, 29 points per game and 45 minutes per game. But, like, he. He just kind of contributed and helped do it. And those teams were so good. Which kind of reminds me of these, you know, at least before Tatum had the Achilles tear, Like, those Celtics teams, that's kind of like their goal. Like, we're going to have all this depth. We're going to, you know, do all the cool things that we do. Switching defensively, offensively, we're going to make you cover a bunch of different people. So that is John Havlicek. Let's get to some debate.
- [32:31]
Law Murray
I got, I. I got a. I've got a good comp, or at least a spicy one. I'm listening, because I'm not saying they play the same, but the role in the franchise impact is. Is interesting to consider. And that's Hondo and Manu Ginobili. Like, yeah, I mean, think about how long Manu played, the size of the players of the position that they played, their ability to make plays, and the energy that they played with. Again, like, I'm not saying John Havlicek was, you know, a southpaw who's, you know, knocking bats out of the air in the middle of games or anything like that, but, like. And obviously Hondo's ceiling as a scorer was way higher than Manu's was. I don't think manu ever touched 20 points per game, and obviously Havoc averaged that for his career. But when just the impact of someone that we have all seen play their best basketball, obviously, you know, Hondo stopped playing long before either one of us were thought of. But yeah, man, 16 years with Boston, coming in the starting lineup, playing off the bench, doing everything I. I like, especially the way you described the merit. That's how I would compare that from a modern standpoint.
- [33:55]
Eric Naim
Well, you know what? Law, that is a great comparison because there is a very famous story that Greg Popovich had a single photo of an NBA player in his office. And you know who that player was? John Havlicek. That's the only player that he's ever had a photo of in his office. That was a story that I think came out in, like, 2015 or something like that. And when you hear Pop talk about it, he's like, I would. I was like, stammering, talking to Havlichek. Like, that was that. That was my. My guy. So the fact that, you know, he would even think of the idea to have a six man like Manu to do those things, probably, I don't want to put words into one of the all times great smelts. But I would guess papa's like, oh that's, that's my Havlicek. That's my Hondo right there. Is manage you nobly. So, so really cool stuff there. All right, let's get into some debates here. We got, we got these 20 players and we've hopefully helped people understand the history in some of the older players that they might not be as familiar with. So I'm going to go the opposite direction. Let's talk about somebody that everyone should be very familiar with. Three time MVP Nikola Jokic. Jokic on this list is at 28. And I want to be fair to, to the OG's Hollinger and, and David Aldridge. This was before the voting was done, before Jokic won his third MVP. So at this time he was only a two time MVP. He's at 28. I guess maybe someone disagrees that he shouldn't be higher. But I, I think my question instead is how high up should he be on this list? Like he's at 28 right now before he won his third MVP. So how high up do you think Jokic should be in whatever the, the next version of this book is? I'm sure we're going to put out some more versions like whenever we get around to it. How hot is Jokic go on this list?
- [36:05]
Law Murray
I'm gonna let you take this one.
- [36:07]
Eric Naim
Man.
- [36:10]
Law Murray
Because I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be short. I'm gonna be short.
- [36:18]
Hunter Patterson
Yeah, I, I would say, I mean it hurts because D. Wade's above him and just mentioned D. Wade is my favorite player. But definitely I, I would say I'm probably gonna put Jokic at this point above everyone on this list.
- [36:42]
Law Murray
Which hopefully.
- [36:44]
Hunter Patterson
That I don't know. Not really sure how that'll be received. But yeah, Jokic is just ridiculous at this point. Not sure if we're, are we going higher than this list or are we just talking this year?
- [36:57]
Eric Naim
Okay, so I, I can help out with a little context here. So you're going higher into the top 20. Our top 21 to 20.
- [37:06]
Hunter Patterson
Excuse me, lower, I guess.
- [37:08]
Eric Naim
Yeah, right. Well, however you want to say it. But yeah, into the top 20. Our top 20 features three players or, sorry, nine players that have won three MVPs. That's whatever has happened in NBA history. Nine players have won three MVPs. Of those players, number 19 is Moses Malone. That's three MVPs out of the nine players. He is number 19. The other eight players are in our top nine. So just for some historical com, like, it's just a little context here before law goes short and does something crazy. Let's see, let's see how, where are we going on this list? Law, we in the single digits?
- [37:57]
Law Murray
Okay, single digits. Absolutely not. Because that's just a list I'm not really trying to get into right now. But I mean, just in the time that this book was coming together, you know, because we were, we got these stories out during the 2122 season. Since then, he's won Finals MVP, a third MVP, and he wound up with the first triple double for a season by a center in NBA history. Only three players have ever averaged a triple double for the season. Russell Westbrook, Oscar Robertson. And none of them played the position that Koliokic plays. I mean, to do it as a guard, especially in this era as Russ did, is one thing. To be the first ever to do it and to not even be like celebrated for doing it like Oscar did it, that's another thing. I mean, Nicole Jokic was Russ's teammate and immediately he was like, all right, I'm gonna do what you did. Yeah, I, I mean, so safely top 20. And again, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to put a number on it. I don't think that's a prudent conversation for right now. But I think the big point is this dude just turned 30, you know, he just turned 30 and this is what he's done. It's, it's like he's going to do this as long as he wants. This dude is Andre the Giant, okay? Like, I mean, he, he is a player who, when you look at him play basketball, you know he is going to score. Teams actually prefer him to score compared to all the other world bending things he does to affect offense. He's always going to be this huge body that takes up space. It's very clear what he needs around him to win a championship. Because he's won a championship. That's the funniest thing we do. We like, man, this player needs this, this and that, and maybe he might do. He's done it. We already know what he needs. He's already has the kind of resume at 30 years old. The rest of his career is dedicated to just stacking everything, you know, the longevity part of things. But he's already achieved things that I forget the draft slot, forget the franchise he plays for. Y', all, y' all knew five years ago y' all was tripping about what the Nuggets were doing, you know, like, Eric, you know what that's like covering Giannis and Milwaukee, you know, like, he has a. Yeah, it's, I'm glad that he's on this list. Where he's at now in the doctor, he's going to be at least 10 spots higher whenever the next version of this happens.
- [40:51]
Eric Naim
Yeah, I mean, you look at, so 20, 19, 18, 17 on the list are Dirk Moses Malone, Kevin Garnett, Carl Malone. I'm probably putting them above all those guys. And the only thing to lost point that concerns me about where his ultimate place in history will be is if this man's just like, you know what? I'm done. Like, I'm gonna go chill with my horses. Like I'm, I'm straight. Like, I don't need to play anymore. I've, I've done enough. As law said, I've won a ring. I've got the three MVPs. Like, because of his style of play, it's not high flying. He's pretty ground bound. If this dude wanted to do it until he's 50, he could. Like the way he sees the floor, like, he's not going to, you know, and I mean, obviously I cover Giannis. Like, Giannis is a high flying player. He's up in the air. People follow him all the time. He, you know, he's trying to dunk on people and then he takes like a hard fall and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is when you're 24 or 25, that's okay. But once you get up in your 30s, like, you worry about each of those kind of things, and Jokic doesn't have those. So I, I mean, honestly, I think where he ends up on this list probably all depends on when this dude wants to stop playing. Because as long as he wants to stop playing, he's going to keep stacking up just insane, insane accomplishments. That's just going to be who he is because he can see the floor so well. He shoots the ball so well. He's so skilled. Yeah. So yogin should be higher.
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- [44:04]
Eric Naim
Anybody else on this list? Let's. Let's talk too high, too low. Anybody else you're looking at are 20 to 39. That stood out to you, Hunter, where you're like, maybe that guy should be a little bit higher or maybe that guy's too high and he should be bumped down a little bit.
- [44:22]
Hunter Patterson
I guess just. I mean, it's tough because it's like, who. Who would they leapfrog? I guess, I guess. But Isaiah Thomas, him being 25, I could maybe see an argument for him being a little bit higher. Individually, Chuck was very dominant, but depending on how you gauge your rankings, if, if you're valuing rings and winning and things like that, I could see Isaiah being up a little bit higher. It's also tough because I try not to have recency bias. And the last thing I think about with James Harden is the continued playoff stinkers. I'm sorry, Law, but like, it's. You want to put him higher just because of his. His dominance when he was in Houston, but then it's. It's like, should he be above a Scotty? Should he be above some of these guys who are like first ballot hall of Famers, which obviously he will be. But I don't know. I think Isaiah would be the one that I have the strongest argument for, hopefully. Kawhi, I would love to see him healthy. I think he can be higher or further down on the list, depending on how you say it, but I think he can be like higher than 35 if he has more healthy Runway.
- [45:44]
Eric Naim
What about you, Law?
- [45:47]
Law Murray
You know the tough Part of doing in a list like this is you're. You want to establish the respect. And that respect goes to what players can do individually, what players accomplish and the errors that they played in. So saying a guy should not be ranked as high. I don't know how to, how to categorize that to say, I'm not saying that guys aren't good enough. You know, this is an objective list of hall of Famers, the best players ever. So with those niceties out of the way, I think Scottie Pippen is way too high.
- [46:31]
Eric Naim
Okay?
- [46:31]
Law Murray
Way too high. And again, I think it's obvious to why Scotty's a great player. He's a generational defender and was the second best player on six championships teams, six championship teams. The one year of his prime that he got to play without Michael Jordan. And I say one year because we all know Mike came back in 1995. And I mean that. That playoffs, it was back to Mike and Scotty, you know, and because Mike didn't play pretty much most of that year, that's why they didn't get to the, you know, they didn't get out of the second round. But, like, Michael came back. So Scotty only really had one year, the 93, 94 season, where it was his team from beginning to end. And I mean, he got MVP votes that year. That was a good Bulls team. It was not a great Bulls team. That team did not make it to the conference finals. So. And that's not on Scotty. It's just to say, like, Scottie Pippen gets a ton of benefit from the team that he was on and the player that he was with. And that probably has more weight as to why he is as high as the list than probably anybody else on this list. That is a point that needs to be said when you're considering other guys who could probably be higher and probably will be higher as time goes on and other players achieve more. You know, a player like George Mikin is only as high on this list because of how good he was in the context of his era. They put a shot clock up and George Mikin was not George Mikan anymore. All right, like, that was immediate. But before they discovered, you know, that whole 24 second shot clock thing that could prevent games being this, you know, determined by just scoring first to 80 wins. Like, yes, George Michael was the standard bearer of his era and something that you needed to establish legitimacy to your league. Like, dynasties are what people remember. Everyone's going to remember that the Minneapolis Lakers, you know, I Mean, shoot, the Los Angeles Lakers, they, they say they get credit for Rings 1 in mini Minneapolis. You know what I mean? There's a whole franchise there. Like again, we could talk about sensitive stuff, but George Mikin is high on this list because he was the standard bearer of an era more than, oh, look at George Mikin's numbers and look at what he would look like in the minor game. I mean they modernized the game during his career. Not. And, and that, and, and that was a rep. So if you want to talk about those things, there's a bunch of dudes who can be higher and those are good cases as to why some of those dudes shouldn't be as high.
- [49:20]
Eric Naim
Yeah, I think what I really end up struggling with is that modern science has allowed guys to stick in the.
- [49:31]
Hunter Patterson
That's a great point. Yeah, that's a great.
- [49:34]
Eric Naim
So, so I gotta sit here and like extrapolate like, okay, this dude in the 50s played seven years, okay, if he would have been playing in the 2000s, maybe he plays, I don't know, 15 years. I gotta think through this guy in the 80s who could only play 12 years and then had a knee surgery or a guy like Elgin Baylor Law. Like if he would have had his knee surgeries in the 2000 and twenties, all of a sudden we'd be, I mean I, I'm covering a guy that's going through it right now and Damian Lillard, like, okay, yeah, he's going to be a different player after the Achilles, but like it ain't over. Like his career is not over. Like we can confidently say that about a smaller, you know, 34 year old guy. Like, that's crazy. Like that, that technology did not exist then. And I think that's where all this like becomes really difficult. And part of that has made like, okay, so CP3, Jason Kidd, both those guys are going to be up at the top of the NBA career assist list, right? Like they're, they're where they need to be. And obviously John Stockton was there because he played so many years. But then like I look at Steve Nash, right, who's fifth in assist, he didn't play as long. His peak wasn't as long. Like, I don't know. All those questions make it really difficult to figure out like someone that I should bump lower or someone that I should like push higher. I would guess with some of the younger players, like Giannis at 22, I think Giannis is going to end up being in the top 20 by the time he's done. But I also Think that's because, you know, he's going to end up playing 20 years, and in those 20 years, he's going to get a bunch more all NBAs and get a bunch more all Stars. And I don't know, is that, is that fair to David Robinson at 21? I don't know. He had a long career, too. He played it for a long time, but maybe he'd been able to play at a higher level if he would have played in this era instead of Giannis. And like, I don't know, all of that gets to a spot where I'm just like, I'm not quite sure, you know, what to do with all those. Scotty Pippen is a great one. I. I would probably agree that he's probably too high just because he's going to get some credit for the championships when it's like, right, Kawhi at 35, if Kawhi got to play next to Michael Jordan, do they win six championships? Yeah, probably. Like, yeah, I'm gonna bump Kawhi up the list. Right. So I think. I think that's a good one, though, because it's just tough to. To figure out exactly how all that goes. All right. Some other things that I wanted to talk about, two modern guys that we know well, James Harden's at 34 on this list Law. We're talking about future additions. And when we do this in, I don't know, another five years, do you think James Harden is someone that we're going to move up or we're going to move down from 34? Like, do we. Where do you think? Like, is it in my head? If you're going to continue to compile stats, it should only be up from here. But as Hunter mentioned, there's been some playoff failures and it hasn't gone so well for him in big games. So then do we move him down? What do you think on that?
- [52:57]
Hunter Patterson
Law?
- [52:59]
Law Murray
He's probably going to be right around the same where he's at. The thing with the playoffs, I mean, James has played 16 years and he just had an all NBA season in his 16th season in the league. And I think with a lot of guys, you know, look at how this list was built. A lot of these guys, they were happy to get the 15 NBA seasons. You know, this guy is still playing at all NBA level in year 16. And I think that has also extended his window for what kind of judgment he gets for what happens in the playoffs. Like, if James fell off for real five years ago, like, he stopped being an all star caliber player at all. We're not holding what's happened, especially in these last, you know, since he left Houston, as much against them, but because he is that great of a player it con it raises his expectations and that's the way it should be. But I also think there's a balance to it for what happens with his teams. You also got to appreciate that this dude's still going the, the workload that he put in while leading the leading scoring while being the offensive revolution kind of counterpart to Stephen Curry, because we know it was both of those guys. While Steph was shooting the threes, James was the lab project, the analytics example of what was going to change not just with your main player, but how you have guys around that main player. James has a legacy that is going to persist not only when it comes to team building, when to it comes, but look at these guys who are coming into the league and what they're asked to do. There has to be big guards, there has to be playmakers, they're asked to be play starters, they're asked to do it in ISO, to do it in pick and roll, to get your own threes. However, I mean Steph Curry takes and makes a ton of threes and from a variety of platforms. But I mean James is on another level when it comes to the pull up three. You know, when you look at the influence of guys who are playing today, Luka Doncic, Kade Cunningham, we're going to tie not just their output but their role and, and how they're doing and who they're playing with to James in, in a lot of ways. So he's going to get credit when he, I, I feel like he's going to be looked at better when he's done than he is now while he is finishing out his, his. The twilight of his star years in the league. That's, that's how I think we're going to remember this. The other thing is James is going to be hated on because he got to the free throw line as much as he did. Like that's a big part of why his failures in the playoffs get magnified. Because people already don't like his game and they want to feel validated in disliking his game. And you have to be the best, the most patient people are those who hate. You know what I'm saying? Because you got to wait to hate on James Harden. The dude makes it to the playoffs every year. Forget the playing tournament like so you gotta wait until the spring to be like that's why I don't like that dude. That's why he's not as great as he's supposed to be. And you know, again, when he's done playing, we're going to go back to the 2010s. We're going to go back to the MVP. We're going to go back to what Houston was immediately before he got there, which was and also ran team in the west and what they were immediately after, which was the most the worst team in basketball for years. That version of James Harden is not who you're going to remember while he's playing. You're going to remember what he's doing while he's wearing his current uniform. When he's done, you're going to go back to his best and his best is going to hold up really well over time.
- [56:46]
Eric Naim
So I think he's going to be fascinating at the end of his career because I don't know if he's going to win a title that's impossible to predict the future. But what I can predict is he's going to get a bunch more buckets and he's going to dish out a whole bunch more assists. James Harden is currently 13th in all time scoring at 27,687. I would guess he's going to have three, sorry, 30,000 by the end of his career. That would make him one of 10 players in NBA history to have 30,000. Let's go to the assist list. On the all time assist list, James Harden is currently 13th as well and 8316 assists. There's a real chance that he passes Andre Miller. Oh, it's going to be tough to get up to Gary Payton and Isaiah Thomas who are at 8,966 and 9,061. But it's not all the way outside the realm of possibilities that this man ends his career top 10 in points and assists. And if he does that, I mean what are you going to do with this man's like legacy? I don't know, like it's, it's a really, it's a really, really tough one because you got to start thinking about how we value winning and you know, compiling stats and the length of your careers and the length of your peaks in modern madness. Like I don't know. He's going to be fascinating by the end. Another guy I'm fascinated by. I'll throw this one to you, Hunter. Chris Paul, he is second all time in assists right now. Somehow he's still two and a half thousand behind John Stockton, which is crazy. John Stockton, maybe John Stockton. It's too low on this list because that man.
- [58:28]
Law Murray
Well, yeah, that.
- [58:29]
Hunter Patterson
You. I don't. I don't want to. Allegedly, they're. They're the stack keepers in Utah. Might have been juicing the assist.
- [58:36]
Eric Naim
That's true.
- [58:37]
Law Murray
That's true.
- [58:38]
Eric Naim
People do say that. People do say that. So I guess Chris Ball, he's. He's a fascinating player. I don't know when he's going to be done. He doesn't seem to want to have any interest in retiring. He wants to keep doing this thing. So he's played 20 NBA seasons. He's second all time in assists. I guess. When you look at CP3, is he in the right range right now, where we have him? I think it's what, 31 on the current list. Does he bump up higher by the end of this? Hunter? Is. Is he a guy that maybe gets bumped down a little bit because he hasn't ended up winning a championship?
- [59:16]
Hunter Patterson
I think he'll probably be decently firm where he is. I think the only way he can inch up a bit higher is just winning the championship. But then, even then, I think when people talk about the weight of a championship, it's like, what role did you play? Are you leading that team? I would hope that that doesn't. That thought process doesn't hinder how people value a championship if he does win one. But I could see him dipping a little bit more if guys like James ends up getting a ring or Kawhi gets another. And I'm sure there are people in the 40 to 50 range who could have cases made for them, depending on how their careers go as well. So I could see him possibly dropping. I started this by saying firmly there, but I think he probably will drop, actually, the more I kind of thought that out. But it's tough, though. I think one thing that's cool about CP is just the impact that he makes on the teams that he plays.
- [60:18]
Law Murray
For.
- [60:21]
Hunter Patterson
Constantly, if not in the playoffs, contentions for playoff, contention for playoffs. I think he's been a really good leader and mentor in each of the situations he's been in. We saw the impact he's had on Shay, and they still have that relationship. He's courtside for Shay's biggest game of his career at that time. Seems like he has a really good relationship with the Aaron Fox that could. Well, I mean, depending on where he is next season. But the time that they did share in, in San Antonio, although brief, seemed like they had a good relationship as well, so him and Steph even briefly in, in San Francisco. So I think Chris Paul's had a overall really big impact on basketball as well.
- [61:09]
Eric Naim
Yeah, it's going to be, I don't know. We're, we're in this fascinating place in the NBA where I think the reason why everybody wants to talk about who's the next face of the NBA is because we have a whole era of players that's getting to the back half of their careers. And we gotta, I mean, you think about the players that we've talked about in the modern era. Janice at 22, Yokachad, 28, Kawhi James, CP like those are all, you know, the, the last three I mentioned are near the very end of their careers. The other two are in the middle of it and we got to see who is in the, I don't know, first seven years of their career that's going to eventually be on this list. It does A guy like Shay Gildas Alexander, where, where does he end up being after an mvp, Possible ring, possible finals mvp, Anthony Edwards, where does he end up? Like there's. We gotta start to see what that next era looks like because all of the, the greats of when we all first got in the game starting to cover it. They're all getting a little bit older. So we'll, we'll kind of see where those guys end up on the next time. You know, three writers get together in five more years to discuss all this. So appreciate both of you for coming through today. Appreciate y' all for listening. Yeah, this has been 20 to 39 in the Basketball 100 podcast based on the book written by many of us here at the Athletic. Thanks for listening and I guess keep the debate going. Let's hear what you guys think. Foreign.
- [62:49]
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Eric Naim
This whole journey that I've been through is just how many jigsaw pieces come together to help someone like me.
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