How did we get here? | Morning Shoot Around

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic NBA Daily – "How did we get here? | Morning Shoot Around"

Release Date: May 28, 2025
Hosts: Andrew Schlecht, Dave Defore, Esper Heaney
Guest: Xena Keda

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "How did we get here? | Morning Shoot Around," hosted by Andrew Schlecht, Dave Defore, and Esper Heaney, the discussion delves deep into the strategic team-building approaches of NBA franchises, focusing primarily on the Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder. The hosts analyze the anatomy of these teams that have surged to a 3:1 lead in the conference finals, exploring how strategic trades, exceptional coaching, and player development have propelled them to the forefront of the league.

---

Indiana Pacers’ Strategic Team Building

Building Without the Luxury Tax

Andrew Schlecht opens the conversation by expressing surprise at the Pacers' unexpected rise to the NBA Finals, admitting, "I didn't have enough of an imagination to think that the Pacers could make the NBA Finals" (01:49), highlighting the team's remarkable turnaround.

Rick Carlisle’s Impact

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Rick Carlisle's role as the Pacers' head coach. Dave Defore praises Carlisle, stating, "Rick Carlisle and his sort of imprint and identity... he's one of the best coaches of all time" (05:03). Carlisle's ability to develop a versatile roster and implement a system where players can seamlessly fit and excel is underscored as a cornerstone of the Pacers' success.

Smart Trades and Draft Picks

Esper Heaney emphasizes the Pacers' front office excellence, noting, "They have nailed their picks, they have nailed transactions. They buy low on players that you might think aren't going to be legitimate NBA players and then they turn out to be NBA players" (07:28). The team’s calculated moves, such as trading for assets like Andrew Nemhardt and Ben Shepard, have been pivotal in assembling a competitive squad without overstepping the salary cap.

Depth and Consistency

The Pacers' consistent playoff appearances are attributed to their depth and ability to maintain elite talent. Esper highlights, "They have players that they drafted and traded who fit the system perfectly," (07:20) ensuring the team remains competitive year after year without excessive reliance on high-priced stars.

---

Oklahoma City Thunder’s Rebuilding Journey

Sam Presti’s Visionary Leadership

The Thunder's General Manager, Sam Presti, is lauded for his meticulous team-building strategy. Andrew Schlecht remarks, "He [Presti] has a way that he thinks about basketball and the way that he wants basketball to be played in general" (49:44). Presti's focus on drafting exceptionally well and making smart trades has laid the foundation for the Thunder's resurgence.

Drafting and Player Development

Esper Heaney and Dave Defore discuss the importance of the Thunder's draft picks, particularly the 2022 draft where "they traded to get Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren, which built the core of this team" (22:07). Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA) emerges as a transformative player whose development is central to the team’s success.

Coaching Excellence: Mark Daigneault

The role of head coach Mark Daigneault is highlighted as instrumental in translating Presti's vision into on-court performance. Dave Defore praises Daigneault, stating, "He [Daigneault] is one of the smartest people that I've met and he's also one of the most emotionally attuned" (73:30), emphasizing his ability to foster player growth and maintain team cohesion.

---

Trades Shaping the Finals

Paul George and Domantas Sabonis Trades

Both the Pacers and Thunder have executed significant trades involving star players Paul George and Domantas Sabonis. Andrew Schlecht points out, "it is at least a fact that both teams that are in pole position to be in the finals traded Paul George" (20:17). These trades have not only reshaped the rosters but also impacted the teams’ dynamics and champion prospects.

Market Challenges

Dave Defore discusses the complexities of trading high-profile players, particularly Paul George, due to contractual and market constraints. "Paul George is still easier to fit on your basketball team than Sabonis is," (21:00) he notes, underscoring the strategic decisions teams must make when handling such trades.

---

Player Development and System Fit

Developing Versatile Players

The discussion highlights the importance of player versatility and fit within team systems. Esper remarks, "Pascal Siakam... is still their best player to me... he's spacing out to the corner off and he's a release valve" (33:07), illustrating how players like Siakam and Halliburton thrive within their respective systems by adapting their roles to meet team needs.

Depth and Rotation Management

Andrew Schlecht and Dave Defore analyze how the Thunder and Pacers manage their rotations to maximize performance. "They experiment a lot with their lineups. They'll throw Dylan Jones in there for lineups," (60:44), explains Esper, highlighting the strategic depth management that keeps their squads competitive throughout the grueling NBA season.

---

Front Office and Coaching Synergy

Organizational Alignment

A recurring theme is the synergy between front office decisions and coaching strategies. Dave Defore states, "It's organized level team. Yes," (69:11) emphasizing that a unified vision from both the front office and coaching staff is crucial for sustained success.

Innovative Coaching Approaches

The hosts discuss the emergence of younger, development-focused coaches who mirror successful models from teams like the Pacers and Thunder. Esper Heaney notes, "It's like a new age of coaching in a lot of ways where there's like, an old guard of coaches and a new guard of coaches," (71:39), pointing to the evolving landscape of NBA coaching.

---

Future Outlook and Sustainability

Long-Term Planning

Andrew Schlecht and the other hosts speculate on the future moves of both the Pacers and Thunder, considering contract extensions and potential trades. "They have gotten this team built extremely intentionally," (68:22) asserts Schlecht, suggesting that both teams have robust plans to maintain their competitive edge through strategic acquisitions and player development.

Replicability of Success

Esper Heaney contemplates whether other teams can replicate the Pacers’ and Thunder’s success strategies. "It's really hard to replicate what Indiana did. It's also really hard to replicate what OKC did," (35:33), she observes, concluding that while admirable, these strategies require exceptional organizational alignment and vision that may not be easily duplicated.

---

Notable Quotes

• Andrew Schlecht (01:49): "I didn't have enough of an imagination to think that the Pacers could make the NBA Finals."

• Dave Defore (05:03): "Rick Carlisle and his sort of imprint and identity... he's one of the best coaches of all time."

• Esper Heaney (07:28): "They buy low on players that you might think aren't going to be legitimate NBA players and then they turn out to be NBA players."

• Andrew Schlecht (20:17): "It is at least a fact that both teams that are in pole position to be in the finals traded Paul George."

• Esper Heaney (33:07): "Pascal Siakam... is still their best player to me... he's spacing out to the corner off and he's a release valve."

• Dave Defore (73:30): "He [Daigneault] is one of the smartest people that I've met and he's also one of the most emotionally attuned."

---

Conclusion

The episode "How did we get here? | Morning Shoot Around" offers an in-depth analysis of successful team-building strategies within the NBA, as exemplified by the Indiana Pacers and Oklahoma City Thunder. Through strategic trades, exceptional coaching, and a focus on player development and system fit, these teams have crafted competitive rosters capable of challenging for championships. The discussion emphasizes that while these strategies are effective, they require meticulous planning and organizational harmony, making them challenging to replicate across the league.

For more insights and detailed analysis, tune into The Athletic NBA Daily podcast, available Monday through Friday.

Transcript

[Andrew Schlecht]

This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Whoa.

[Dave Defore]

I just found out you can earn up to 3% daily cash back on everyday purchases made with Apple Card.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, you can earn unlimited daily cash back with Apple Card on every purchase. No matter where you check out with Apple Pay, you always get daily cash.

[Dave Defore]

The possibilities are endless.

[Esper Heaney]

What's better is that daily cash can automatically grow when you open a high yield savings account through Apple Card.

[Dave Defore]

That's like endless plus one.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Visit Apple Co card calculator today and discover just how much daily cash you can earn. Subject to credit approval Savings available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Member FDIC terms and [e-mail].

[Xena Keda]

This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest. All because someone stole your identity. Hackers aren't waiting. Why are you? That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers and Aura helps lock it down. Aura monitors the dark web, blocks data brokers from selling your information. Includes a VPN for private browsing and a password manager to secure your accounts before criminals break in. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for [e-mail] safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's a dot com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Welcome to the morning shoot around here on the athletic NBA Daily podcast feed and live on YouTube. We are excited this morning to talk about more big picture team building stuff. We're going to talk about kind of the anatomy of these teams that are up 3:1 in the conference finals and like how did we get here? What happened? And you know which teams traded Paul George and Sabonis? Maybe it was both, I don't know. We'll talk a little bit about the Knicks and how they are presently constructed and if it is a good enough, frankly is a question that we have to have to put out there and then same for the Timberwolves. Like do they, do they have enough as well and what, what can they do and what are their limitations in this offseason. I'm your host Andrew Schlecht. With me Dave Defore, Esper Heaney. We'll have Xena Keda joining us at some point as well. We can start with the Pacers, because this is a team that I think a lot of times throughout this season, I don't think any of us. Maybe. I'm just talking about me. Okay. Frankly, I'm just talking about me.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. It is really only you clear that out.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I didn't have enough of an imagination to think that the Pacers could make the NBA Finals. My imagination sometimes is limited. And you know what? It's a flaw that I have. Okay. I'll admit it. I've got it. And I did not have the imagination for a team like the Indiana Pacers to actually make the NBA Finals. And here we are, they're up three one. They got to go back into New York to win. And they're just on the doorstep, though, and I. They're obviously heavily favored. It. It's. It's hard to come back three 1. Do the Knicks have the anatomy of a team that could come back from a 3:1 deficit? It doesn't look like it right now, but it never looks like it, I would say. But let's start with the Pacers. Like, how. How did we get here with the Indiana Pacers? And we can just kind of talk. I think it's just interesting to kind of just take apart, like, right now it's. We have this, like, rubber band ball of a team, and it's like, how did this get here? And what. Which one is this? But I think it's just. It's good to kind of take this apart a little bit and think about, like, how do you build a contender? How do you build a team that could do something like this?

[Dave Defore]

How about Rick Carlisle?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Like, start there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's a big one, man.

[Dave Defore]

He gets pushed out of Dallas.

[Esper Heaney]

Yep.

[Dave Defore]

Where he's coaching, you know, Luka Doncic and that whole situation, you know, with the, the analytics folks and everyone sniping at each other, and he gets handed the keys to the franchise. And this is a team that plays. This is like a Rick Carlisle team. I actually saw someone compare them to the 2011 Mavs, which is, which is interesting. Right. I. I would. I don't think it's.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

A real good comparison, but when you consider the, the. The different pieces that he's using and especially all the guards. Right. Like Ben Shepard getting all this run. That's. That's Rick Carlisle. Like, you could imagine if Devin Harris would fit right into this team. Right.

[Esper Heaney]

So I, I one time All Star Devin.

[Dave Defore]

Right. And so I would start with that. Like Rick Carlisle and his sort of imprint and identity. Like, we've Said for years he's one of the best coaches in the league. Yeah, I think it's time to start thinking about this guy as one of the best coaches of all time.

[Esper Heaney]

Because Crazy Dave, he was not named in the NBA all time coaches. Doc Rivers was, but Rick Carlisle was not. Just wanted to mention that.

[Dave Defore]

Hey, Doc's a good coach, man. Doc's got a Doc record.

[Esper Heaney]

It's just the other side of it.

[Dave Defore]

Rick Carlisle is a different. That's a different thing. And, and I, I would start there. I, I think that landing Rick Carlisle really is. Is what turn the franchise around. I mean the players obviously win the games, but you know, having that guy in place for a rebuilt. Like, think about it. For, for a team that's kind of turning things over, that, that's extremely rare.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. I will say, I think from. And I agree with you about the coaching aspect, like you need someone that is a mastermind to be able to build this team out in the way that it is right now. It's unique in its own way. The way that they play and to find the star that matches exactly the type of style they want to play is incredible. With Tyrese Alberton also team building wise. Like, if you think about the Pacers, they don't really tank. They haven't tanked a bunch ever. And I think there was this stat where it's like them and the spurs are the only two teams that have been to the playoffs like 16 or 17 times in this decade or, or in this century. So it's like this Pacers team has an mo of consistently being competitive, constantly trying to turn out playoff teams. And I actually think that's a really unique way to build a championship contender because they sort of had to build from the middle. Yes, they drafted guys. Yes, they drafted Miles Turner way back when they had Paul George. They drafted Ben Mather and they drafted Jairus Walker. They signed T.J. mcConnell. But if you look at their, their other guys, like they traded for the pick that become. Became Andrew Nemhardt. They traded for the pick that became Ben Shepard. They traded for Aaron Neesmith and Obi Toppin and they obviously traded for Siakman, Halliburton. Like, these were really, really calculated and smart moves from a front office that had a vision in mind. And to your point, Dave, like knew what kind of team they wanted to build around.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, they flipped from Oladipo and Sabonis to this.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, right.

[Dave Defore]

I mean, Paul George.

[Esper Heaney]

Paul George Oladipo to Sabonis and now to. To Halliburton. And Siakam, like, the way that you'd go about that by maintaining like all star level talent pretty consistently, that's rare. I think that's. That's like you. You need to have elite talent evaluation first and foremost.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

And you need to be able to like, like, let's think about Aaron Neesmith and Obi Toppin before they got traded to this Pacers team.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[Esper Heaney]

Aaron Neesmith, first round pick for the Celtics, didn't get a ton of run, and it was just like, all right.

[Dave Defore]

Is this so many guys?

[Esper Heaney]

They had so many guys.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

But it was like, is this guy gonna be, you know that he was a sharpshooter in college. And it was like, right, he's gonna be that guy for them. Is he gonna pan out in the NBA? Comes into Indiana, fits the system perfectly. Obi Toppin, I mean, Knicks fans can tell you how much of a, like, distressed asset he was in New York to the point where they had to, you know, basically just get two round, two second round picks to. To trade him. He comes in and fits perfectly into what they do. So it's. It's about like just knowing the type of players that you're looking for and finding them. And I think that's really different than what OKC did. Well, sort of different than what OKC did.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Extreme. It's extremely different than what he did, I would say. And what's funny is, so they picked six in 22. They took Ben Matheren and they had the seventh pick. They traded it, you know, with Washington to get Jerus Walker, who's not really been impactful so far. But you do, you know the last time they picked inside the top 10 before that?

[Esper Heaney]

Was it Miles Turner? No, no.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Miles Turner was the 11th pick.

[Esper Heaney]

Ah, okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

All right, so ninth or higher. When was the last time before? Why?

[Esper Heaney]

No, Kawhi was 10. Kawhi was like 11.

[Dave Defore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He's 14th, I think.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

14Th or 15th.

[Dave Defore]

No clue.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, no clue.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It was.

[Esper Heaney]

No, not Jermaine O' Neill. He was in Portland. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Nope. 1989 was the last time before they took Ben Matheran in 22 that they drafted inside the top 10. It was George McLeod out of Florida State in 89.

[Esper Heaney]

Wow.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Last time that they selected inside the top. Inside the top 10. So this is a team that.

[Dave Defore]

This is an ethical title. Oh, they are so the most technical title run in NBA history.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Well, I'll say this. It did take them being sixth and seventh in the lottery for them. So it's not like things are just going so swimmingly.

[Dave Defore]

Well, it's not success, you know, it's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It is. Is quite unusual, I would say. It is very. It. This is not a. That is not a blueprint to get to where you're gonna go.

[Esper Heaney]

No, no.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And a lot of it is like hiring the right coach, selecting the right players. You know, they took Andrew Nimhard at the 31st pick in 22 that you could argue, like, that was their most impactful draft pick.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They've had in recent history because you look at everybody else that they've drafted since 17, it's like TJ Leaf and go Go's been good, but he's not on the team anymore. You know, they took Chris duarte at pick 13. That was, hey, part of the Holly trade though, right? It was part of. I mean, did happen. He's a catalyst for anything like that. That was like their most impactful draft pick, I think. Ben Matheran has certainly been an interesting player. Yeah, I would say. But Andrew Nemhardt is like their most impactful draft pick. Everything else has just been either guys that they've had in house, like Miles Turner for a long time, or that they've acquired in other ways, either through free agency or through trade, which is kind of how you have to do it. If you're not building through the draft, like intentionally building through the draft, then you've. You've really just got to hit. And like where they hit was in 2022, they traded. They traded demonic Sabonis, Justin Holiday, Jeremy lamb, and a 2023 second round pick for Tyros. Jeremy Lamb.

[Dave Defore]

Now, now running. Running, you know, the freaking Kings, Jeremy Lamb. By the way, let's, let's not overlook the Pascal Siakam trade as far as like the, the thing that kind of was huge. I think the Siakam trade gets them here. Right. Like Halliburton. That's a good floor. And you're. You're gonna grow into something. Yeah, but they, the thing that got him to the present today, like, yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

He was the final. He was the final piece. Right. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

And pulling the trigger on that, I mean, that was a little bit of a risky move, I think, for the Pacers, because again, they, they, you know, like, when you look at their team, like, is clearly going to be built on depth and future flexibility, and they kind of gave that up to put their chips in. And I mean, think about some of the fluke conference finals runs that we've seen. I mean, you now say in, in hindsight, the Mavs run The previous, you know, years. Now that they. Once they made the finals after. Okay, maybe not a fluke, but, like, the Hawks making the. The conference finals. I was looking at last year's Pacers team, like, it might have been a fluke, and now all of a sudden, it's. You're saying, oh, well, I wonder how long can the Pacers be at this level? Right. Like, maybe next year, this is a. You know, this is a one or two seed if they stay healthy. And I think they would have. I mean, it feels like they would have been in, you know, battling maybe Boston for the two seed if they had been healthy all year. I mean.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Hard coming back, like, flipped the switch for them. So. I don't know. It's a. It's an interesting world where the Pacers are this good, you know?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. I'm. I'm, like, in a weird way, I'm wondering what happens next for this team, even though they still have a finals team to play or. You know what I mean, they still have a finals matchup to play, and we'll see what happens there. But, like, Miles Turner extension, free agency, right?

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

That's an important part of this. The Pacers are not a team that historically likes to pay the tax. And, like, in order to keep this team around, they likely will have to pay the tax. How. How aggressive are they? Because. Because you're right, Dave, in the sense that sometimes teams that get to this level end up being a little bit complacent, and they're like, all right, well, our team is good enough to compete every year. Do they end up being ultra aggressive and they're like, hey, can we. Can we get involved for.

[Dave Defore]

Yes.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Right?

[Esper Heaney]

Can we? Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

I'm sending Giannis everywhere.

[Esper Heaney]

Right? Yeah, that's it. But, like, you know, and I don't.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Know if they could trade for Kevin Durant, and it just works out for everybody when you do that.

[Dave Defore]

You know, Andrew is just. He's just trying to. To tank as many franchises, get as many coaches fired around the league as he possibly can.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, who knows? Maybe it's. Maybe it's there. Maybe it's. Maybe it'll work. This.

[Dave Defore]

What if okc. Look, if OKC didn't pull this thing off, could they talk themselves into Kevin Durant? You know, get a reunion? We can. What's the name of the steakhouse he used to own?

[Andrew Schlecht]

KDs?

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Are you serious?

[Unknown Speaker]

Wait, are you. Is that. Is that a thing?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, it was a thing.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Never knew that.

[Esper Heaney]

That is a day I learned I.

[Dave Defore]

Wish it was like. I wish it was like a. A small K, big D, like.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, it stands for Kevin Durant's.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Oh, thank you. I was wondering what that was. I was wondering what that was.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's crazy.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is it, like, defunct? Is that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, yeah, it's been. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Are we sure it's not like, a, like, discount shopping store? It's not, you know, KD's sounds like some place you'd go. Oh, yeah, I gotta go pick up some dish soap.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, man. I. I ate there a couple times and.

[Esper Heaney]

Was it good?

[Andrew Schlecht]

It was decent.

[Esper Heaney]

You can get pretty good steak at. In Oklahoma.

[Dave Defore]

You can get good steak so in any decent restaurant.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's interesting. What year was this, Andrew?

[Andrew Schlecht]

I believe it opened in 15, so then.

[Esper Heaney]

Wow.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, Actually.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Set the example for Steph and Draymond with their restaurants.

[Dave Defore]

I. Listen, I think all these guys. Look, the athletes have been throwing money into restaurants forever.

[Esper Heaney]

Restaurant. Can we. Can we. Does anything.

[Unknown Speaker]

I would never know Michael Jordan Steakhouse. What are you talking about?

[Esper Heaney]

Is that my. I know, I know. Wayne Gretzky also has some.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Running for Don Shula. Had a place right. In Miami. Oh, yeah, I have heard about Michael. Oh, no.

[Esper Heaney]

Steakhouse.

[Dave Defore]

We lost.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What happened?

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, there's, like, shoeless in that. Isn't that a place?

[Esper Heaney]

Does everybody here. Medium rare steak? I mean, obviously. I know. You know? I know, but in a. I say.

[Dave Defore]

It like I regret it, but. No, I mean, I just.

[Unknown Speaker]

I got so excited about Don Chula steak that I just closed my browser.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Dan Marley has a. Has a. Oh, yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Really close to the. Yeah, the arena there.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Cool.

[Dave Defore]

That's the move. Right? Look, to me, it's like. It's kind of like cheers, right? Be the former athlete, be the bartender. Be sober, but be the bartender. You know, hang out, throw watch parties. You know, start a podcast. Like, it's 2025. You could. You could turn it into. I mean, there's a great model for that in Denver. You turn it into, like, a studio, you can have a nice little thing going instead. You know, how much do you think there's.

[Unknown Speaker]

How much do you think that there is thought by athletes about where I want to go for the next step? Like, if you're thinking about your Giannis, Right. And Giannis a lot. Right. Giannis is in the Bay Area at Google's tech event, you know, being an entire personality inside.

[Esper Heaney]

Are you hinting at something here?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying things out loud. We're Just thinking out loud here. And everyone knows that. Yes. New York, Louisiana. Spotlight celebrities, big time, you know, Miami even. But, like, when you think about the next step and setting yourself up for success, I'm looking at Andre Guadala, president of mbpa. Like, you come to the bay for the next step. And I'm just thinking about.

[Esper Heaney]

Oh, I mean, your angle.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Here's the thing.

[Unknown Speaker]

What can.

[Dave Defore]

Ok, see, if I may. You know, these guys have, like, so much money. You can't. I mean, you know, like, I don't know if you really have to think about it. It's more of a how do I make sure I'm not bored when I'm done. Right. And can maybe buy a yacht. And it also depends on what you're.

[Esper Heaney]

Built for, you know? Like, Iggy was obviously always interested in, like, being a part of some sort of governing body. You know what I mean?

[Unknown Speaker]

And tech, he's always been invested in tech.

[Dave Defore]

And Tim Duncan just wants to do jiu jitsu and we're like big jeans. Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

You know?

[Dave Defore]

Yeah. People have different dreams, but Tim Duncan never has to worry about the cost of jeans going up because all that money. Right. Like, so inflation doesn't affect him, you.

[Esper Heaney]

Know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So worried about jeans.

[Unknown Speaker]

Anyways, I just derailed us. Continue.

[Esper Heaney]

No, no, Speaking of courts, speaking of, like, former athletes, I've loved the Pacers having all of their old at like, George Hill was courtside yelling.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, well, the Knicks did it too. I mean, it's been really. Actually it's been fun in the playoffs, right? Like that.

[Esper Heaney]

It feels like Paul for okc.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That was cool there. Yeah. Patrick.

[Dave Defore]

Yes. You made fun of me. You made fun of me for, for wanting this series. Because you're like, called me old because this is like a 90s series. But all these guys that you're loving, they must are from the 90s, right?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

So, hey, you should do an old Timers game.

[Esper Heaney]

That would be fun. That would be really cool. After the season, I don't want anybody.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm scared of injuries. I was like. I say, I was like, oh, the injuries scared me.

[Dave Defore]

That's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's, that's not fun. That's anxiety producing. Especially for somebody like me who's like.

[Esper Heaney]

Still recovering from one of those for. They did one of those for Goron Dragic. Right? His, like, retirement game.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Night of the Dragon.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

And. And Jokic on the same team. It's a sick game. Pretty fun. Yeah. Everybody was there.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. But it was like the Kemba. Not. Not the Kembe. But there was I think it was actually the campaign. Batombo was out there early and. And Chris Bosch was out there, and they're like, man, these guys are getting up there in age. Like, damn. You know? Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, man. So it. It is interesting that it's at least a fact that both teams that are in pole position to be in the finals traded Paul George, right?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

It is a fact.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It happened.

[Dave Defore]

Podcast P. Philly, are you listening?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Philly, listen. There's one thing. And also Sacramento, if you're listening, you guys are both one step away from becoming title contenders. You'll just trade Sabonis and trade Paul George, because that's apparently how you do it.

[Dave Defore]

Who has a worse market between the two? Because it's not like Paul George for sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

What do you mean, worst market? Worst market for what?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Trade market.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, trade market. I mean, it's probably Paul George, right? Because of the.

[Esper Heaney]

I think it's because of the contract. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, probably. But also, Paul George is still easier to fit on your basketball team than Sabonis is.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Like, a good team might be more likely to trade.

[Esper Heaney]

What is Paul George right now? I mean, like, he was terrible.

[Dave Defore]

Well, he's podcasting again.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Listen.

[Esper Heaney]

Right?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Listen.

[Dave Defore]

So he's a competitor.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I totally. I totally get it.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's interesting. You guys think that the market is better for a Paul George than a big man that can shoot.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, but he doesn't shoot is the problem. I mean, even if he did, I think he would still.

[Esper Heaney]

He shot.

[Unknown Speaker]

He's not. He shot. Right?

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's not.

[Unknown Speaker]

He's not. I don't know.

[Esper Heaney]

But he didn't make him.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Biggest thing to me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Excuse me. Not shoot. He has some offensive value to him.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know what I mean? Like, no question. And that's not the problem. The problem to me is it is so hard to be a big man in this NBA and not be a good defender, because it affects who you play at every other position. And if it's not done just right, it is really difficult to build a winning team around those kinds of players. And that's why I think, like, you even look at, like, Derek Queen in this upcoming draft.

[Esper Heaney]

Oh, why are you bringing him up? Don't break my heart right now.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Because that archetype of player is really. That is hard to build around. Like, those guys are difficult. I think that, like, in. In early on in their careers, it's like, oh, this is amazing. This guy's so good to pay them a lot. I think about Vuchovic.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think about. I mean, Sabonis is like.

[Esper Heaney]

Like, honestly, if you look.

[Unknown Speaker]

When I think Simonas, I think about Vucevich.

[Esper Heaney]

The Rockets did such a good job of building around Shangun, you know, they.

[Dave Defore]

Well, we'll see if they end up the new Sabonus.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes. Is the new guy. And it's. It is just an archetype of player that I know that some front offices will not go near because they're just either. Either they become Jokic and it's like, transcendent, or they become Vuchevic with, like, he made an all star team. He helped the team get to the first round of the playoffs. Like, he's done all these things, but it's like, what. What do you want? And like, that's where it's like, how do you trade that guy now? And who's going to raise their hand and say, I'll take Sabonus?

[Dave Defore]

And like, team that just wants to hang out in the play in.

[Esper Heaney]

You know, who would, like, that's Miami. The Chicago Bulls would love to trade for Demon, but I feel like.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I feel like Sabonis would just be a replacement of Utovich. I'm looking at Miami and I'm like, okay, you got Khalil Ware, who actually can play a lot of defense and can space the floor really well. Bam. Adebayo has been flirting with that 3, 4 position for a while.

[Esper Heaney]

That's a weird fit to me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it's weird. But, like, maybe you move Bam, finally he gets to play the three in the. In the. In the way that he wants to, and you put Sabonis in there and it's like, I don't know, Bam.

[Andrew Schlecht]

If Bam could shoot, that's the other problem.

[Dave Defore]

If Bam could shoot, he has.

[Unknown Speaker]

He has. He has glimpses.

[Dave Defore]

I'm done with that game. I'm done with that game. Whatever. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm just saying, honestly, in the gym with Asia, because Asia developed a three point shot.

[Dave Defore]

This thing, though. This thing, though, where you can have. Where you can have Sabonis at the four with a stretch five. Like, we've seen it. Yeah. We've seen multiple iterations of it. It just does not work. It doesn't. I know he has to play the five and he has to stretch and. And then, you know, the thing is, they just haven't figured out. No coach has figured out a defensive scheme where he can be average. So, like, like with Jokic, you know, there's a lot of talk about him protecting the rim. I actually think he protects himself from Fouls. Right. He plays the ball low and. And things like that. Instead of playing up at the top. He also. You can have him hedge and, and jump out on a screen.

[Esper Heaney]

Jokic is also bigger than Sapon. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

And, yeah, he's 7 2. Right. And. And just as good or if not better of a rebounder, you know, Carl Anthony Towns, even like we saw last year, like, there is a way that you can have him guard and you know, you know, he does work with. With that roaming big behind him. Yeah, but with Sabonis, you just. I haven't seen him be able to defend in space. I haven't seen him protect the rim. I haven't seen him, you know, strip the ball. Like, he doesn't have great hands. He has awful feet. I mean, it's like he plays in motorcycle boots. They don't really flex. Right. Like at the ankle or snowboarding boots would maybe. And it's. It's just, you can't. Like, he's a. He's a backup big at this point.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[Dave Defore]

In my opinion, for a team that's trying. If you're trying to win a title or be like a home court advantage around that guy.

[Esper Heaney]

And it's funny because the Kings have like three of those guys right now.

[Dave Defore]

Well, yeah, I mean, but if they spread, I think actually the Kings are in a position where they. They could maybe re. They could retool their team a little bit. Like, they've got DeMar DeRozan. I think some teams could be interested in him. Sabon is like, there's a home for him somewhere.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

But the money is. So this is.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This is why, like, setting the table here is like, why that trade was such an all timer for Indiana.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, man.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This is a team that. And I'm gonna pull up this. This graphic because it is a graphic. I've got a graphic, not a. It's.

[Esper Heaney]

We're. We're elevating our game here at the morning shoot around.

[Dave Defore]

Folks, folks, listening to the podcast, you got to check us out on YouTube.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Like, and subscribe.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So look at this. So this is a teams. Like, this is a tax bill performance. No, I did not.

[Dave Defore]

Okay.

[Esper Heaney]

Oh, okay.

[Dave Defore]

I was about to say, respectfully, this is a tiny graphic.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Just squint.

[Esper Heaney]

Okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You'll see. But the Pacers are at the top of this one. They have not since 2012, they not paid the tax one time.

[Esper Heaney]

Man. That's crazy.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And they have 51 playoff wins in that span, which is insane. You look at like, the Pelicans, you Know, have paid the tax once and they've won seven games. The Grizzlies have paid it once. They've won 31 games. The Pistons haven't paid it. They've won two. Hornets have won three and have paid it. Kings have not paid it and have three wins. The Magic have seven wins and haven't paid it. The Hawks are another one. They've won 34 games without paying the tax.

[Dave Defore]

That's impressive.

[Esper Heaney]

That is impressive.

[Dave Defore]

It's like small, you know, small market baseball teams where they're, where they're, you know.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, it's like we're gonna, we're gonna win on the aggregate. Shout out like the paint.

[Dave Defore]

The Pacers are like the Marlins, but with stable ownership.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. And it's, it's just impressive to see like what they have built and what they have done through, through this. Like, I mean, this is a long time. We're not talking about just like a few years. Like they have, they've had this longevity where they've won a lot of playoff games, they haven't paid the tax and they've got this team. And you, you start to wonder, like, how, how long? Like, what happens when Andrew Nimhard's contract comes up? Like, what do they do there? Like, there's going to be questions around it and questions around the ownership group.

[Dave Defore]

But when malls come back, you know.

[Esper Heaney]

Can I, you know what's crazy about this? Like, they, they just always, for some reason, Jermaine o' Neill came to mind for me today just because obviously Indiana Pace is legend. I was looking at the trade that they made to trade O' Neill to the Toronto Raptors. It was T.J. ford, Rashford, Nastarovich, Macy O. Bastian, and Roy Hibbert, the 17th overall pick and Roy Hiver obviously became a huge part of that next wave for the Pacers. And so it's like, man, it's, it's a weird line to toggle for Indiana because again, this is rare like that you, you can't get to what they do without being right a lot. You know, like, they nail their picks, they have nailed transactions. They buy low on players that you might think aren't going to be legitimate NBA players and then they turn out to be NBA players. They've just done it constantly. And it's. That, that itself is pretty impressive to me. I just, like, you can't replicate that though. I don't, I don't think this is like a blueprint. You know how everybody says it's a copycat league and whatnot I don't think there's a team out there right now that's looking at the Pacers and saying, well, we can do this. We can figure out the way to do exactly what they've done and be sustainable for 20 years. You know, the spurs did it, but the spurs did it with draft luck. Like, they got lucky and got Duncan and David Robinson and Wemby. And now, you know, I'm thinking about.

[Dave Defore]

This graphic because Atlanta has sort of done this, but without the stability and. And they haven't really landed. Like, I mean, Trey Young is. Is a really good player, right? Like, they have Trey Young, they had Clint Capella, they found Jaylen Johnson. I mean, they. They wound up with. With Risha, but they've sort of done this. I mean, it's actually this. This graphics very eye opening when you consider the dollars spent to the playoff wins.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like, that's a. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Like, you can buy titles too, right? Like, you're looking.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm looking at the warriors, but you.

[Esper Heaney]

Can also crash and burn. I mean, look at the Nets, look.

[Dave Defore]

At the Clippers, look at the Suns.

[Esper Heaney]

Look at the sun.

[Dave Defore]

400 million for that. Even the coach, by the way, we got to start throwing the coaches contracts in here when they get fired. Like, because, like 400 million on the payroll. Yes. But also, how much is Bud getting paid for the next few years?

[Esper Heaney]

And.

[Dave Defore]

And Mike, please hire us.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mike Brown in Sacramento, like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just walking away with money.

[Dave Defore]

That's the move. And then you go get an assistant job or you go do tv.

[Esper Heaney]

Keep.

[Dave Defore]

Get double dip. It's pretty good. Pretty good scenario.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's a pretty sweet gig. It also. So we can shift gears like anything else on just like how the Pacers are built. Like, they've just. A lot of. A lot of it too, is like they've identified players that fit their style of play. Like, Aaron Eastmith is clearly one of those guys. But just identifying the right kinds of players is very good culture.

[Dave Defore]

It's good culture OKC a lot, but it's really good culture. And I've brought this up quite a bit. Like, they almost have this, like, it's like their offense is anarchy. You don't know who's gonna do what. The roles even are. Are interesting, you know, like, think about how much Halliburton, he plays off the ball. He's almost playing like 0.5 basketball, but he's the point guard, and that is extremely rare. It's like Steph and Tyrese Halliburton. Basically.

[Unknown Speaker]

Rick Carlisle deserves Credit for creating a system. Yeah, that's how any player can plug and play in.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. How many.

[Dave Defore]

How many, like second guards are trusted to hit that mid range pull up? Not that many. And Nemhardt, I mean, he. He kind of kept him in some of these games, like from the mid range. Right. Like that. The game they wound up losing, like, the only offense they had going for a little bit was his mid range, so. And obviously Siakam gets to post up. Like, this is a. This team has got like a really good ego about it. And it seems like they're. They're all in. They're not as. It's not as maybe pronounced as like OKC with the group interviews and whatnot, but it does seem like this team is. Was pretty tight.

[Esper Heaney]

You guys listened to the post game interview for Pascal last night and they were kind of. They were kind of like, hey, like, why don't they draw up more plays for you? You know, which is a silly question, but at the same time, he run.

[Dave Defore]

A lot of plays.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, they don't run. They don't run a lot. But he answered that in a really great way. It's like, man, it is not about me. It is about this team. It's about the way that we like to play offense. And you look at them, you know, there's rarely a player. I think I don't know how it is after this last game where Halliburton went off, but before the Eastern Conference finals, they had four guys averaging 15 plus points in these playoffs between Nemhard, Nismith, Siakam and Halliburton. That's how they like to play. They like to move the ball, they like to share it. And I think it just feeds everybody and it makes people happy to play in that system. You know, it's different than the Mavs with Luca or whoever.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[Esper Heaney]

It was just.

[Dave Defore]

Well, it's different than the Knicks where everyone stands around watching Brunson hoping the ball finds him. I mean, you know, Siakam is such a perfect example of sacrificing for the team. When, when he's playing with Halliburton, he's spacing out to the corner off and he's a release valve. And then when Halliburton goes to the bench, that's when he starts to work for those mismatches and, and post ups and they slow things down a little bit. Guys get their legs back under them and he's just willing to do anything, including playing defense. Like he's been guarding Carl Anthony Towns like Pascal Siakam is still their best player to me. Like, I, I'm, I'm on. I mean, Halliburton is really ascending right now, but yeah, he's still their best player to me. And part of it is because of what he's willing to give up. Like, we know that he's this all star level, all NBA level player and, and he kind of tones it down and he, he brings it up when they need it, I think. Again, man, I'm really impressed with this team and it's such a, it's a funny thing to have, like, watch them and I was disgusted by them at points last season with the defensive effort and whatnot.

[Esper Heaney]

But they've changed in that they have changed completely.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like November or December.

[Dave Defore]

I mean, Andrew Nemhart really did change everything for them.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, they have players that also have gotten better within their system. Like, there isn't. I mean, Pascal Siakam is a very unique player in that he came into be whatever it is that they needed him to be, which is exactly what he said last night as well. That's very rare to find someone that's fine playing second fiddle, fine doing whatever it is that a team needs. But everyone else, Miles Turner, Tyrese Halliburton, everyone has gotten better within their system. And that, to me, I think, is a very unique quality of small markets because you, you can't, you can't afford to be this big time ego in a small market. You've got to play up to the brand of like, of, you know, Indiana or whatever or okc. Like you're seeing this in all of these smart markets. I don't know what's going on with Utah. Utah got to pick it up. But everyone else, it feels as if these brands of basketball, the players are feeding into the brand, into what's on the front of the jersey as opposed to let me get my, my individual game off. And it also happens because they have. There haven't. There hasn't been a ton of players on that roster that have skipped around to multiple teams. They've been within that system, they've grown within that system, and it's allowed them to like to mesh in a way that we're not seeing with other teams.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, I know we, we kind of had this conversation offline about, like, what's the prevailing storyline from these playoffs. And depth is obviously playing a factor and the Pacers are a really deep team, but it still is the stars that kind of make this thing go. And the way Halliburton and Siakam have elevated what they do, and it's the way that they play. Like, it's a, it's an unselfishness, it's a willingness to buy into what they want to do. I know you guys were talking about it on the pod last night about Halliburton and, And sort of the, the defensive concerns you guys had coming into the playoffs. Like, I, I think he's been pretty good in the postseason. Now he's buying into what he has to do defensively. Like, that's, that's a level that you need from your superstar to get to this point. And I think if you're looking on the other side against the Knicks, it's like that they're not getting that from Brunson. They're definitely not getting that from Cat right now. And I think that's the difference between these two teams. It's the, can you change your mentality for whatever the series and the matchup provides or, like, necessate. Necess. I'm messing up that word, but you know what I mean.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Necessitates. Thank you. Needs you to do, basically. Right?

[Dave Defore]

So, I mean, I, I would say the Pacer scheme, honestly, is like, to, like, to credit here, and then the energy and intensity from the guys around Halliburton also, and Halliburton getting himself into the right spots. Like, you, you talked with this the other night. So much peel. So many peel switches.

[Esper Heaney]

Yep.

[Dave Defore]

So many scram switches. They're getting Halliburton out of there, and everyone is locked in and, and knows their job, knows their assignment. And Halliburton, again, to his credit, four steals in the game. Like, think about the plays that he was making. He sees opportunities. He's not a big Fowler, right? Like, so he's using the opportunity here. He's like, okay, I can be a little bit more risky. They're getting me off the ball. Who cares if I pick up four or five fouls, right? Like, because he's not going to foul out. You don't worry about that as a coach. So he's able to dive in there, get those steals, you know, get his hands on some balls, and then also, like, some of the fouls he was able to make. Like, think about, like, the layup that he saved, you know, where he grabs. I think it was OG Getting a layup, right? Like, stuff like that. I, I, they have really maximized what he can do defensively without exhausting him. And so on the other end, he's able to do all this hopping and skipping, which is why everybody hates him.

[Esper Heaney]

Without, like, turning them all over.

[Dave Defore]

It's two minutes left in the fourth quarter, and he's, like, skipping down the court, and you just want to, like. I was like, you hate his guts. I get it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. The conditioning of this team is, like, you feel as if they've got the second wind, but it's really because they have depth. They just have rotational players. But I thought the most endearing thing that is very indicative of how this team looks at Tyrese Halbert when it comes to defense was. I can't remember. It was in the fourth quarter. Tyrese made a play, some sort of deflection happened, and he almost had it and ended up getting it, you know, knocked out of bounds, and he ends up in the bench, and James Johnson and Thomas Bryant, like, hug him up, and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You did it. You. You're doing it. You're doing it. And it's like. That is so endearing of, like, we don't. We don't look to you to be our defensive stopper, but, like, good job. Like, you're trying. There you go. That. That sort of energy around him of just, like, keep going. Etc. I'm not seeing the same level of, like, full enthusiasm from the Knicks bench as much as I'm seeing for any type of play that Mikhail is making, that Josh Hart is making, any type of rebounds that he's making. It's kind of like that's the expectation. And so with Tyrese, it's like any other thing that you can do outside of the offensive boost that you're providing us, we are very excited about, and we will continue to encourage you. It's very endearing.

[Dave Defore]

Knicks are too tired for that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Also. You just kind of wonder, and I know some more of the Knicks have played, but, like, how hard it is to be on a team where you just know you don't have a. There's no way I'm playing, right? No, there's no way. You're what, getting on the court, playing in the game.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Dave Defore]

I mean, James Johnson had his grills in.

[Unknown Speaker]

So last night, we noticed that, right? We were like, are those just his teeth now, or.

[Dave Defore]

I think they're grills. I don't know. Maybe they're caps. I don't think so, but, you know, so. I don't know. Like, so. But he knows his job in there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He was wearing a coach's quarter zip the last time he was in. Ok. I mean, come on. Like, he's not playing.

[Dave Defore]

He's got the best job in sports right now.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He does.

[Unknown Speaker]

He's just an enforcement.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Too much.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah. Who never has to enforce anything. That is it. Right. He is. He's like Chuck Norris of the NBA.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He really is.

[Esper Heaney]

You just have to. You just have to go around saying, you know, he's a black belt.

[Dave Defore]

Right, right, right.

[Unknown Speaker]

All the players reputation precedes him.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Players think that like he.

[Dave Defore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Was the guy that people didn't want to fight in the player poll. Like the players still think of like they all think of him like that. Even though, like when was the last time they actually saw him?

[Esper Heaney]

I don.

[Unknown Speaker]

Want to find out it in the playoffs. That he had to come off the bench or something. I can't remember when it was.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, he came up.

[Unknown Speaker]

He came off the bench and had to, you know, had to just stand up for a little bit. But I think. Yeah, quickly.

[Esper Heaney]

I think that was in the Cleveland series. He did that one.

[Unknown Speaker]

Maybe that's what it was. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

It's an earned reputation. I. I'm just saying he's got a great job. Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Former raptor legend. Just saying that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's true. Raptor's legend. Every raptor is every.

[Esper Heaney]

Hey, Delon.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[Dave Defore]

Yesterday. I mean there's only been what, 150, 160, 60 players there.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, yeah, probably. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's got to be a lot more than that.

[Dave Defore]

Maybe more than that. I don't know. I just assumed. Everybody's a legend.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, so for the podcast, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll come back, we'll talk about the anatomy of OKC and how they got here as well. We'll be right back. This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

[Dave Defore]

Whoa. I just found out you can earn up to 3% daily cash back on everyday purchases made with Apple Card.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, you can earn unlimited daily cash back with Apple Card on every purchase. No matter where you check out with Apple pay, you always get daily cash.

[Dave Defore]

The possibilities are endless.

[Esper Heaney]

What's better is that daily cash can automatically grow when you open a high yield savings account through Apple Card.

[Dave Defore]

That's like endless. Plus one.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Visit Apple co cardcalculate later today and discover just how much daily cash you can earn. Subject to credit approval, Savings available to Apple Card owners Subject to eligibility savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA member FDIC terms and [e-mail] and.

[Unknown Speaker]

Now a next level moment from ATT Business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time. For International Sleep day, you've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding and International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease, so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T 5G requires a compatible plan and device coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network.

[Dave Defore]

Lights Camera Innovation Walt Disney Studios chose advanced 5G solutions from T Mobile for Business to transform the movie making process. Together we kept a remote production hub in Hawaii in sync with a team in California to bring Lilo and Stitch to theaters this summer. This is picture perfect collaboration. This is Walt Disney Studios with T Mobile for Business. Take your business further@t mobile.com now.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And we're back after that quick break. Let's take a look at this graphic again. If you're watching on YouTube you can tune in. We have several people tuning in live and subscribe. We'd love for you to like and subscribe and join us every Wednesday. We will go live. The Thunder A lot of people see them as like this like cheap team, a team that never pays the tax. They actually since 2012 paid it five years which I think has surprised a lot of people and they've paid over 100 million in, in tax money, which is really, it's just an interesting point to just throw out there like this, this team, this ownership group, yes, I think that they are will forever be seen as the team that cheaped out on not paying James Harden. And like I think people have that just like stained, you know, into their memory of like who this team is. But like they had always planned and it's similar to now like they had always planned to pay the tax with that Kevin Durant Russell with how it like however it manifests itself. They were going to pay the tax. It was going to happen. But they had a plan in place and now like they have a similar plan in place. They would love to be able to pay the tax with this current team and I think that they will. Oh yeah, they've saved money through the rebuild. You know the, the most money that you pay, you know, out of everything that you're doing is through your payroll for your players and like they didn't pay much, I'll tell you that. Yeah, through the rebuild and now I think they're fully prepared to pay the tax. They're going to have an influx of money through this new arena that they're building. They have influx of money through expansion. So there's all these things that are in favor for the Thunder to actually pay the tax. Now, how long can you stay in a particular apron is like a whole new question. Yeah, but the Thunder have been planning for this, so, like, they're going to be able to keep their. Their big three around for the foreseeable future as long as they want to stay. Is like always a question with any of these guys. But, like, the way that they have built this team has been extremely intentional. There was nothing accidental about anything that happened with this team. And I think Xena, you sent this tweet to us yesterday that's just kind of funny how.

[Esper Heaney]

Oh God.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Thunder ended up with basically the team they have today. And it all started in 07. It was. It was Presti's. Presti's first thing that he did was that he was to execute the 2007 draft was like the first thing that he ever did. And he had like a choice to make because he had Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis on his squad along with the number two pick. And I'm sure a lot of people would have looked at that and said, you know what, that looks pretty good. Start a team with those three.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, like, I missed Ray Allen still like had, you know, several years left of being a good player. Rashard Lewis went on to be a very good player for Orlando, but instead he just stripped this thing all the way down. And it like told what was going to happen later as well. But it's funny that this trade, like stretches all the way to the next rebuild, which is just goofy. But he created a trade exception that became Kurt Thomas and he. They salary dumped Kurt Thomas to the for two first round picks.

[Esper Heaney]

Shout out to insane general manager Steve Kerr at that point, who. Yes, two.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Two first rounders. Thank you.

[Dave Defore]

Still didn't value draft picks.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, isn't that. I mean that's. That is insane. One of them became Serge Ibaka, which then became Sabonis and Oladipo, that then became, you know, Paul George, that then became this current core which they traded Paul George and they got SGA and Jada back in. That one allowed them to tank. Yada, yada, yada.

[Dave Defore]

But.

[Esper Heaney]

And Casey, right. Is that. That was part of the Paul George trade too? Is that one of the picks for Case and Wallace or is that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No, Casen was not a part of that deal. I'm trying to remember. It's.

[Unknown Speaker]

They traded Paul George for sga Delilah Gallinari, the five first rounders and two pick Swaps. I'm wondering if he was a pick swap.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Paul George and then the Leonard.

[Esper Heaney]

Can we just.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

That deal were used or traded for Jalen Williams Case and Wallace and others. Clippers.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Dave Defore]

I also just don't. I mean, I don't want to re litigate Kawhi and Paul George, but man.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, we don't need to do that.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, Like, Kawhi wasn't gonna sign with the Clippers if they didn't trade for Paul.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, it's. It was, it was.

[Dave Defore]

It was a different time.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It was. It was also the ultimate life raft to the Thunder who were. Had this team that was very expensive, that was not competing in the playoffs. I mean, they got there twice and lost in the first round twice. It was becoming untenable with Westbrook, I think in general. And so like to. To be able to unload those guys at a time where like a lot of franchises wouldn't want to trade these guys when they are in their prime. You know, Westbrook had. It wasn't that long ago that he had won the mvp. And now you had Paul George who was third in the in MVP voting that year, you know, the year before they traded him. And so for it all to just kind of crash down like that, you know, I think that all Thunder fans can look at Damien Lillard and say, thank you, sir, for doing what you did. And killing that team literally created.

[Esper Heaney]

That created a potential dynasty.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That shot, which felt horrible in the moment, like that's what, you know, began all of this. And you know, I think it's interesting because I think Presti has a way that he thinks about basketball and the way that he wants basketball to be played in general. And it definitely aligns more with like the beautiful basketball the spurs played for years and years. And when he drafted kd, Russ and Harden together, you are going to play basketball the way those guys play. You can't just like form a. Yeah, I don't know.

[Dave Defore]

That's a pretty good. Tony Parker, Manu and Tim Duncan.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, if they wanted to play.

[Dave Defore]

Right, right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Personalities of those three. Yeah, they do not. But they, they were very good. You know, they. You have to take on. When you have a Russell Westbrook led team, you have to take on the personality of a Russell Westbrook led team and like, for better, for worse, that's what it is. But I think it was an interesting chance for Presti to kind of like really mold this team into like what he wanted it to be. And when they traded for sga like, nobody thought in their wildest dreams that he would become this. Like, they thought, like, okay. And I don't know what they thought, but I thought, okay, they probably have a starting two guard, and now they need to go rebuild through the draft and get their best player.

[Esper Heaney]

I remember there were conversations about whether they should move SGA off the ball and give Josh Giddy more.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I was sitting in that press. Oh, sitting in that press conference.

[Unknown Speaker]

Interesting.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And it. Mark said it before the game, and then I can't. I can't remember who asked the question it was either. I think it may have been Joe Masado at the old Oklahoma. And I remember sitting in there, we were asking, like, what are your thoughts on you moving off the ball? And Josh Giddy taking point. And he. It'll always be the not my plan A night, because, like he said, that's not my plan A. I'm willing to do it, you know.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. But it was clear that started the. All right, sga, you know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. I mean, this is. And it was never a foregone. Like, none of it was ever, like, yeah, he's going to be the best player even in the 21 draft, where the Thunder. That night, the Thunder had a chance to get the first pick and the fifth pick because they had this Rockets pick swap. The pick swap didn't convey. And what could have been the number one pick for them fell to six.

[Esper Heaney]

Wow.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And it was like, just this night where everybody was sick to their stomach because, like, now this is over. Okay. And then it's like, okay, do they trade Shay now? Do they try to get the number one pick now? And I remember there were rumors, and none of these were ever actually true, but there are rumors about the Thunder trading Shay and number six to get Cade Cunningham and the number one pick. And, like, that was always absurd, but, like, that's. That's what people were talking about around the league with this. Like, nobody knew what they were doing. And everybody thought Shea was going to, like, force his way out after he signed his extension. And. Yep, really what saved their Butts is the 20, 22 draft that they got the. You know, got the number two pick and drafted Chet, who I think would have been the guy if they were drafting at 1, 2, or 3. Like, that's who they wanted.

[Esper Heaney]

I would take him number one right now.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I agree. And then I. And then they took, you know, J Dub at 12, in which they traded for pick 11. They traded three picks to get pick 11 and took Usman Jang, which, you know, I think almost Any other franchise, if they did that would have been criticized. But the fact that you took Chet and Jalen in that draft, it kind of erases that. But they took Dub at 12, and there's been reporting around this, and I can confirm it, that, like, if they only had one pick that's. They would have taken Jalen in that draft, and it was, like, I would say confirmed even before we knew how good Dub was. So, like, that's. That's the draft that made them. They also got the other Jalen Williams in that draft, who, you know, has been a pretty good rotation player. And. But it was that. It was that 22 draft that built this team. Like, you're not anywhere close to this if you don't have both of those guys. If you have one of them, we're probably talking about. OKC is like, second round and out, like, really good squad. But the fact that you got both of them and, like, you continue to draft well and you're able to trade Giddy for Caruso and you're able to bring in Isaiah Hartenstein, who is their best free agent that they've ever acquired in the history of the franchise.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, the only reason they were able to do that is the Gordon Hayward trade. Right, Right. Like, that's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They cleared cap space by. You know, they had Mitsich, who was signed to this deal that he probably never really really needed to have.

[Dave Defore]

Nope.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, Trey, man, they. Poku wasn't part of the trade, but they eventually waved Poku and let him ride off into the sunset. But, yeah, I mean, like, that. It's just meticulously planned. Like, they traded for Hayward because he was a giant expiring contract, and they hoped that he could play for them. He forgot how to look at the rim during his time with the Thunder, which was very stardy.

[Unknown Speaker]

It was actually very strange how much of a fall off he had.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He was. He was miserable here. He's one of the only players that I can remember that was miserable here and that had an exit interview that was like, so awkward.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. When did he hurt his ankle was like.

[Esper Heaney]

That was 2019. Where he. With the. Are you talking about the Celtics situation?

[Unknown Speaker]

I thought he got hurt again in okc.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, he's. I don't. I don't know about me.

[Dave Defore]

He stayed banged up. Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, he was pretty consistently hurt. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I just remember, like, I. I remember him getting hurt in OKC and it kind of feeling like this is a good thing that he doesn't have to go and play basketball because he Looked miserable in okc. Yeah, sorry. I was actually, while you guys were talking, I was looking up. You were talking about how no one expected Shay Gilders Alexander to be the player that he was. But I vividly remember Draymond Green and Steph Curry being like, no, we knew that he was going to be this good. And I was like, really trying to.

[Esper Heaney]

Pull up the LeBron meme right now.

[Unknown Speaker]

But they have said that. But they've said this for a while, that they saw this when they played in that first round against the Clippers in 2019. And I was just looking up his stats, like he played in those games. They, it was, you know, warriors and six, and it was a battle. I don't know if you guys remember that playoff series, but it was a legitimate battle. But I didn't know that Shay started in all six of those games. Shot 46 from the floor. Was, you know, was it the. I mean, they were a good team, but he wasn't.

[Dave Defore]

I knew on this team when I saw him at Hoop Summit when he was coming out of high school. No, I mean, I, I honestly, I. You know what?

[Andrew Schlecht]

I wish my buddy Mike, knowing he'd be good and knowing he'd be the.

[Dave Defore]

Envy, knowing he'd be great.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think everybody after that playoff series against the warriors, yeah, he's actually a starter because, like, yeah, pretty rarely do guys that are drafted, you know, at his position, he's drafted 11th, you know, become like these like high level starters have a chance to make an All Star team kind of guys. I think that's what people thought. Like, hey, you know what? In his first year with OKC, average, 20 points per game. Great. Like, this guy's going to have a chance to make an All Star team at some point in his career. What a great get for the Thunder. And he, he just grew every single year. Like, you became a better.

[Esper Heaney]

I think OKC deserves a letter credit for that too.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Passer became a better.

[Dave Defore]

I think, Matrix.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Okay. I was about to say I thought it was me. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Development has, like, really paid off with them.

[Unknown Speaker]

They set a standard. Guess who also started for that Clippers team that took the warriors to six?

[Esper Heaney]

Patrick Beverly. Right. Was it Danilo Gallinari? I'm pretty sure was on that team. Montrez Harrell. Was Montrez Harold a starter? He might have come off the bench.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, he was not a starter. Yep, he definitely came off the bench.

[Esper Heaney]

Yep. Let's see. Was Wesley Johnson still in the NBA? I can't remember. No, no, no.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's I'll give you a hint. It's someone that New York has been putting a lot of faith in as of last night.

[Esper Heaney]

New York has been putting a lot of things.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Sorry, I feel like I'm on like holiday and express Internet right now. I don't know what's going on.

[Unknown Speaker]

Landry Shamit.

[Esper Heaney]

Landry Shamit, right, yeah, yeah, I remember that. I remember that. No, look, I was just saying like, you have to credit OKC for nurturing and like allowing him to grow through the years. Because I was talking to Andrew about this a couple of weeks ago when Shea went. Or not even a couple weeks ago, last week when Shea won the mvp. But his size, if you look back at his rookie year, like he was skinnier, right? Sure, he added some frame, he grew into his body, etc. Etc. And they allowed him to grow and blossom as a mid range scorer. Like, yes, he was always super talented at getting to his spots, but to be able to like learn all the different pick and roll coverages, figure out how he wants to maneuver through them and also to become like an elite three point shooter eventually.

[Dave Defore]

Well, his mid range is why. And free throws or why I assumed he would eventually shoot from three because he's been consistently, you know, he was like 33, 34 from three, I think his entire life up until, you know, like the last two years. And, and in the mid range he's like been around 38, 40, right? Like that's pretty good when you consider how they're guarded. And then he's a great free throw shooter. So I always assumed he would, he would find the range. It's honestly, it's the feel of the game with the ball in his hands, that's the stuff that separates him and differentiates him. And where does that come from? I, I don't know yet. Like I, I mean I, you know, I've been in a lot of gyms and I, I haven't figured that out, like where that comes from. I think it's reps and experience and those years where they weren't very good, but they're like, hey, here's the ball. Go out, go try some stuff. Go, go figure out who you're going to be as a, as a player.

[Esper Heaney]

100.

[Dave Defore]

He obviously has the skill, right? Like that was pretty obvious that, you know, if he was going to be a secondary guy, like if he was going to play the two, like Andrew was saying, he was always going to be a secondary creator. It's just that this next level of being able to get to every spot. Even though he doesn't have what you. What you might think by the eye test is an elite first step. Yeah, he always gets to a spot.

[Esper Heaney]

I will say I think it's also a testament to the patience of okc. And this doesn't just apply to sga, but it also applies to J Dub and to Chat and basically all of their other players on this roster is like, they are willing to take the time. You see them throughout the season. Yeah, they won 68 games. And Andrew, I'm sure you know this, but they experiment a lot with their lineups. They'll throw Dylan Jones in there for lineups. They'll obviously eventually, when Nikola Topic is available, they'll throw Nikola Topic in there. They played AJ Mitchell multiple minutes for about a month or two before 10.

[Dave Defore]

Guys in the first quarter of the conference finals.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, like, they're not afraid to. To try things. And I think that's a testament to how patient they are with their dudes and moving forward. I know, Andrew, you said they're going to be attacks, they're going to be a tax team. They're going to pay J Dub, they're going to pay Chat, they're going to extend sga. It's like you have this constant, like, turning wheel of prospects that you can incorporate and give more opportunities to throughout the year. So there's Case and Wallace that you can give more opportunities and reps to. Topich is going to be a guy who they obviously like. AJ Mitchell is a guy who they like. Who knows if you can get more out of these, you know, the. The Jalen Williams of the world. And maybe they. I don't know. But there's just options, right, to. To what they can do to improve that roster around their core three, even moving forward, which is what's really exciting with this group. Right. Not to mention the million picks that they have that they can kind of like facilitate what they want to do moving forward. Also. Like, like, and they just. You can. You can go out and find your next case and Wallace and Lou Dort and Alex Caruso and Isaiah Hartenstein because you have so many picks available to you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, they also have an attractive landing spot.

[Dave Defore]

Like, right.

[Unknown Speaker]

To be able to do that.

[Esper Heaney]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, these players want to come to OKC because they know they can get better. And the players that also have the opportunity to potentially leave don't really want to. Like, they're perfectly fine taking the minimum or. Or taking what is available in their contract outside of. Instead of looking elsewhere because they know that in this system they can get better. Like, this is a spot in which you can guarantee growth in your game. And there are certain places where you can. You can almost guarantee that your career goes to die right now. And so that reputation absolutely extends. I think that was in the player poll as well. Oklahoma City being one of those places. A great landing spot in which not only are the players taken care of, their families are taken care of, etc, but, like, players know good and well what systems are going to benefit them in the long run that will set them up for success when it is time to leave, when it is time to exercise those player options that you're gonna up and you're gonna up your value. I mean, I'm looking at Casey Wallace, and yes, he has more years on his contract, so he's gonna be chilling but getting better and more valuable until it's time to go.

[Esper Heaney]

Andrew, can I ask you a question?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes.

[Esper Heaney]

As long as your Internet is working when it comes to the future of this team, like, how. How flexible do you think they'll be with eventually, like, trading some of the pieces outside of their core three, if they. If they do want to, like, incorporate other guys into their roster, you know, because I'm thinking of, like, Lou Dort eventually, and Isaiah Joe has his contract. Like, do you think they will entertain that, given how patient they've been over the last three or four years?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I mean, I think you'll eventually have to, you know, entertain, you know, moving guys around the fringes. But a lot of people talk about Dort as somebody that you just move.

[Esper Heaney]

He's hard to.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, he's really, like, central to a lot of the things they like to do.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And I'm not to say, like, they would never move him, but, like, they have him under contract through 26, 27. They have a team option of 17 million, which in 26, 27, that's going to look really small.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, yeah, it already does.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, it's. It's a good value contract.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So I just. I don't see them doing that. Like, they got, you know, Isaiah, Isaiah Joe and Aaron Wiggins on really good, reasonable contracts. Aaron Wiggins is on a descending contract that starts at 10 million, and he's a guy that would play for a lot of teams. 28, 29. Aaron Wiggins will make $7.9 million for the Thunder. Like, they've done a really good job of getting these guys on good contracts. Like, I think the first domino, if we're going to look at, like, okay, winner, when Is this roster going to change at all? Isaiah Hartenstein has a team option in 26, 27 for 28 and a half million. Yeah, I'm not to say that they're going to decline that, but like that, like what do they do with him? I think is a question like, can you. Is he a sustainable piece? To be honest, for a long time I think he's been a huge reason why they've had the success this year, you know, outside the top three. Yeah, I think that will be an interesting one for sure. I think Case and Wallace's extension here in a couple years will be interesting. You know, they just gave Caruso a long term extension. He's on the team through 28, 29 is making at max 22.4 million. So like that deal is very reasonable. They've just done a good job of like getting guys on reasonable contracts.

[Esper Heaney]

Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I don't think there's going to be a ton of turnover that's going to happen. But like you, Isaiah Joe could get moved at some point. Maybe Case and Wallace, depending on like how he progresses, may not be, he may be a guy that gets like too expensive. I think that's possible is going up.

[Dave Defore]

Though, and if that's going to help.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, I just think like that it's, it's just like what does the ownership group have an appetite for? Right. You know, I don't think a lot of people like, oh, they got to trade door this summer. Like.

[Esper Heaney]

No, no, no, no. Absolutely.

[Dave Defore]

I don't think they need to change anything until next year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I've heard people say that and like the thought of that is absurd. Like it's, it just doesn't even make sense.

[Esper Heaney]

My, my thing comes down to like roster spots and, and I know they have two first round picks this year too, I guess myself. It's like, would they, would they want to, you know, kind of change that and trade up maybe even or trade down to, to get out of. I don't know. But like it does become a roster spot situation where it's like you just have too many guys who are willing and able to play, you know, and.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They have guys they can move on from. Like, I, I think it may be time to, to let Usman Jang go play for Charlotte, you know.

[Dave Defore]

Trade him.

[Andrew Schlecht]

To Chicago, you know, like Dylan Jones White maybe. Yeah, Dylan Jones, another guy that I just don't know that is long for this roster either. So I think like you can play around with those spots for sure. They, they love to do the thing where you Take a draft pick this year and dangle it in front of a team that's really desperate for somebody to help them and say, like, hey, we'll let you have this 24th pick in the draft, but you just have to give us a, you know, protect pick, you know, five years from now.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, Denver's bit on it twice. Like, there'll be a team, like if the Bucks want to like, hang on to their roster and like, try to do it, you know, try one more time with the honest. Like, they could be like, hey, that draft pick that you got left, we'll take it and you can have the 24th pick. You know, they'll, they'll do that.

[Esper Heaney]

You know, that would be bad for Milwaukee.

[Dave Defore]

Oh, yeah. But John Horse only signed a three year contract, so, you know, just go ahead and do it. You know, like, life is short.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I think they'll take somebody for sure in this draft. You know, they work really hard. Yeah, yeah, they'll take some. They'll take somebody with upside in the first round. I don't.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, if they want nine, I mean.

[Dave Defore]

You know, if they want draft and stash. Right. Like, this is a team that could totally bring back the draft. They got space and like, they've got, they've got a lot of options. I. This is part of what's going to keep them sustainable.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, yeah, they have, they have planned this then. And in fact, like, there's been no team that's ever been able to do what the Thunder have done. You know, as far as like team building wise. There's not a team that's drafted this well that's been a contender that also has all these draft picks available to.

[Dave Defore]

Them and traded well. Right. Like, it's not just like they've, they've made smart trades and not just the shade, every single other one, they've. They've just touched the right buttons.

[Esper Heaney]

I will say as we, we've talked about like copycat league and like other teams looking at these two teams and saying, well, how can we do this? It's really hard to replicate what. But Indiana did. It's also really hard to replicate what OKC did. But I believe there will be teams that think they can do this. You know, there's like, probably Utah and Brooklyn right now are saying, Brooklyn, Yeah. You know, we can, we can figure this out. We can draft well, we can trade well. We can scout incredibly well for four or five years and hope it's fool's gold a little bit. But I imagine this is more of a tangible pathway for a team than Indiana.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I do.

[Dave Defore]

You just got it. It takes organizational alignment.

[Esper Heaney]

It's like it is organized level team. Yes.

[Dave Defore]

Coaches are making the difference here. Right. Because the coaches in OkC and I. I think the vision probably comes from Rick Carlisle myself. But I think in OKC the vision of Sam Presti is expressed through the way Mark Dagnaut coaches. I mean this is why they're playing so many guys. I mean we're gonna hammer depth for the next six months as we talk, you know, unwrap this playoffs. But it is, it is going to take that like the right coach for the right team with the right front office. But the coach, I do think it again, Tom Thibodeau is being exposed again. Right. Like the same stuff we've been saying for years and years and years. Right. Like this. But right now is I think when it is the most apparent that if you don't have nine guys, 10 guys in the playoffs that you can trust, it's just going to be harder and harder and harder to win and. And you know, you tip your cap to them for winning this way. But it's a difficult way to do it also.

[Esper Heaney]

It's like finding 10 guys that you can trust both on offense and defense. Like that's. We're in a new era where you have to do that. But how incredible these guys are hard.

[Dave Defore]

Some of these guys are really good at basketball S and I really like. We've never seen this level of talent.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Is really what it is. They've never played at this pace. They've never had to defend this much space ever. It's again, we can go into how this is also an argument for fewer games and all these other things because yeah, totally. You know it's going to be more detrimental to these guys bodies. But the truth is like the game has never been this intense and to ask seven guys to go out there and give you all the minutes that you know, it's just unrealistic.

[Unknown Speaker]

Andrew on the point of Mark Dagnault being a reflection of Sam Preston, like the culture and the type of play that they want to have. I'm thinking about the amount of coaches that have been now cycled through because of firings. David Albany. Why am I blanking on his name in San Antonio?

[Esper Heaney]

Mitch Johnson.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mitch Johnson. Thank you. I was gonna say Michael Mitch Johnson, but I'm particularly thinking about Brooklyn and Jordy Hernandez and like thinking that he is a good. I think he is a good youth development type of coach.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

For sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

And they've got four first round picks this year and I think, think they, they could probably be the best in position to not only have potentially the talent, but also particularly the right coaching to get them in a position where they're developing over the next year. It's going to take a while, but what have you seen in Mark Dagno that maybe you've also seen in Jordy Hernandez? Fernandez.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Jordan Fernandez. Yes.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. He, I, I don't, I don't know that I know Jordy well enough and maybe that's where we bounce it to s, you know, after.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But Mark is one of the smartest people that I've met and he's also one of the most emotionally attuned, I guess would be one way to say it with just like, he's just good with people and that's a rare combination of individuals that. And he's got leadership skills. He's got, he's got all of it. He's, he's really funny. I know that he maybe doesn't seem funny as press conferences, but like on a personal squints, he does squint. When we asked him about his squinting last year, his quote to us was, I have the eyesight of a red tail hawk. Like, he's, he's really, he's, he's great. But the guy like wakes up thinking about development and I think that's why they brought him in. You know, like the guy didn't play college basketball. He was never the head coach of anything until he was the head coach of the blue. Yeah. And the way that they've developed, like he's just as much of a developmental story as anybody else.

[Esper Heaney]

Damn. There's actually sort of like a, a through line here between Jordy Fernandez and Mark Dagnoff. Okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I'm thinking about the Canadian team too, like the work that he did. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, keep going.

[Esper Heaney]

No, but very curious to your point about not really, you know, playing any sort of basketball. Like, Jordy was a guy who immediately went into coaching when he was young. I believe he was coaching in Spain for a really long time and then got an opportunity in Sacramento with, with. Why am I blanking now? Mike Brown. Right. Him and Mike Brown developed a massive relationship. Actually, I believe he got his first opportunity with Mike Brown in Cleveland initially. And he always talks about how Mike Brown taught him how to like, deal with players like humans and just the relationship aspect, like building these relationships out to the point where they're fruitful, you know, in the sense that like, you want to know more about these players than just basketball. You want to figure out what they like to do, what kind of things they enjoy outside of basketball. It's very Greg Popovichy in the way that. That that approach is. And so development is at the forefront of what Jordy Fernandez likes to do, too. It's also funny because I think this is almost exactly how Darko Rajakovic has been pitched to the Raptors over the last couple years. He's. He's. He basically the exact same story where not a coach by any means, you know, didn't really coach until he became an assistant. And then eventually, you know, was. Was a guy who was known for his development. And Devin Booker and Desmond Bain are guys who. Who constantly talk about how much Ray Akovic was huge for their own development. Stephen Adams, another guy who does that. But it's just. It's these younger guys, right. You think about the. All those guys have youth on their hands. They have. The fact that they are just younger. They can relate to these guys more, and I think that gives them an edge in coaching. I know, Dave, you've mentioned it before, but, like, there's like, this new age of coaching in a lot of ways where there's like, an old guard of coaches and a new guard of coaches, and you think of, like, Will Hardy and Jordy Fernandez and all those guys, and I'm really curious to see if we see more of that. You know, I'm thinking of Phoenix right now, and Phoenix is in a situation where it needs. They need a head coach. And some of the candidates that. That they've reportedly been looking at are younger coaches. You know, look at what happened in Orlando with Mosley.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

How about, like, that's.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm just thinking that this is going to be the new wave because of the success scene in okc. You could say the success scene in Orlando, but like, Charlotte, Brooklyn now. I mean, what will be very interesting is to see what happens in Denver. Like, what. What shift happens with an older guard type of play in terms of players with a new guard in coaching style. So interesting.

[Dave Defore]

Well, if Adelman's gonna get that job, I think it's just. That's a continuity official.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Oh, he did. He got it.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

So it's just continuity. I mean, to the. To the point about coaching, like, and a new guard. I mean, I think everything's become so standardized now that the younger coaches are just a little bit better, like you said, s. At relating to the Players. I mean, there is an age gap and I. And there's a point where coaches probably age out. I would guess that gap is getting smaller and smaller just with the way that the world works. And then it's a, it's a very competitive job, like an environment. And there are coaches that are fantastic that you've never heard of, right? Yeah, at every level. But you look at stuff like what Memphis did, they went out and they found their next coach before they got rid of their old coach. I think that's what we're going to see even more of. Right. The Bucks did it with document. That's a weird way to do it. Right? They didn't go find a younger guy, they got rid of a younger guy. But I, I think that what you're going to see is again, more organizations looking for that alignment all the way through the coach where, hey, you, you're doing what we want you to do. And that, that's what we're going to see. In Memphis, they're going to be playing, you know, a faster paced style. They got to figure it out as far as how these guys are going to survive it. But this is what, this is the future of the NBA.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's cyclical. Think about it.

[Dave Defore]

Front office is being expressed through the coaches.

[Unknown Speaker]

When the NBA first started, how many players were players that had literally just played for their own team and became coaches, right? Like that. That had always been the story of like, oh, I just finished, let me go coach. I feel like it's cyclical now. Like it's going.

[Dave Defore]

How many guys are on an NBA bench, right? Like if it's like 15 coaches now and, and that doesn't count support staff that are, are in the film room. Trying to become coaches is an industry. It's why I'm happy to be in this one. It's. It's just as competitive, but you don't get fired as much. You know, it's a, you know, if. Yeah, it is a different world and it is a lot more corporate than I think people would understand. And. But for the guys that get to break through, I mean, I just wish we would get some real revolutionaries breaking through who were like changing the way things are done on the court rather.

[Esper Heaney]

Than those guys never get credit though.

[Dave Defore]

It's hard, right? Like it's, it's just impossible. I mean, we'll, we'll see what happens again with Tama Sezola in, in. In Memphis with his. Because he's got a little bit of a different style of offense, but I want to see who's the next defensive guy? Like the offensive brains always get all the attention. It's a lot like football, right? These guys that were coaching high schools like it was Madden, they started getting college football jobs and now they've worked their way into the NFL. I want to see where's the next coaching guy coming from. Is it going to be me bringing back the amoeba defense? Am I going to have to be the one to do it? I don't know.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Next I want to come from the athletic.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Thank you so much for tuning in with us here live on YouTube for the morning shoot around. I appreciate you guys listening on the podcast app of your choice as well. If you leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast, let us know if you have enjoyed the morning shooter. I was actually introduced, I was on the radio the other day. It was a national radio show. They actually introduced me as Andrew Schleck from the morning round and I was like pumping myself good.

[Dave Defore]

We got a spin off. We got a spin off show.

[Esper Heaney]

There you go.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I didn't, I did not even know that was a thing. So thank you guys for tuning in. Appreciate it and we'll talk to you guys again next week.

[Unknown Speaker]

And now a next level moment from AT and T Business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding and International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T5G requires a compatible plan and device coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network.

[Andrew Schlecht]

How many discounts does USAA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi vehicle discount Safe driver discount New vehicle discount Storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply.

[Dave Defore]

Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on the beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia Made to travel.