How do the Nuggets survive without Jokić?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic NBA Daily

Episode: How do the Nuggets survive without Jokić?
Date: December 30, 2025
Hosts: Dave DuFour & Esfandiar Baraheni (aka "Esperaheni")
Guest: Joel Lorenzi (Bulls beat reporter)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Athletic NBA Daily grapples with the fallout of Nikola Jokić’s knee injury and what it means for the Denver Nuggets’ season. Dave DuFour and Esfandiar Baraheni analyze how Denver could cope without their superstar, break down the Cavs’ much-needed win over San Antonio, and look at the evolving identity of the Spurs and Raptors. In the final segment, Bulls reporter Joel Lorenzi joins to discuss Chicago’s injury woes, the precarious trade status of key players, and the philosophical crossroads facing the franchise at the trade deadline.

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Main Segments & Timestamps

1. Nikola Jokić Injury Fallout - [02:29–07:59]
2. Cavaliers' Statement Win & Spurs Concerns - [08:02–12:47]
3. Raptors-Magic: Playoff Preview, Scottie’s Star Turn - [13:25–15:29]
4. Chicago Bulls Check-In with Joel Lorenzi - [18:37–31:31]

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1. Nikola Jokić Injury Fallout

[02:29–07:59]

Key Points

• Context: Nikola Jokić exited with a knee injury at the end of the first half vs. Miami. Severity was unknown at recording.
• The injury occurred following an awkward play involving Jaime Jaquez and Spencer Jones, with Jokić immediately holding his knee and exiting for the game.
• Miami blew out Denver after Jokić left, but both hosts agreed “no one is really thinking about the game right now.”
• Denver’s depth is being tested, with Christian Braun and Cam Johnson also out.

Nuggets Outlook Without Jokić

• "If Jokic is out for an extended period, it's seven starters" — Esperaheni [04:34]
• On Jokić’s Value:
  • “Jokic is worth four guys, man.” — Dave DuFour [04:38]
• Jokić has been extremely healthy throughout his career; this makes the injury even more worrisome.
• “The fact that he fell down also wincing—a reaction that we haven’t necessarily seen from him a ton. That’s what makes this concerning.” — Esperaheni [05:22]
• Hope is for a minor injury (hyperextension), not season-ending; the Nuggets’ recent bench performance gives some hope they could tread water for “a couple weeks to a month.”

Depth, On/Off Data & Survival Mode

• Past years: minus 12 to minus 15 point differential with Jokic off; this year, just minus 2.7 (“not bad compared to what it’s been in the past”).
• Jonas Valančiūnas gives them a real backup center.
• Jamal Murray having arguably his best season could help stabilize play.

Short- and Long-Term Implications

• Two consecutive losses, start of a tough seven-game East Coast road trip.
• “Long term, obviously, it’s a season changer for the Nuggets.” — Dave DuFour [06:59]
• Awaiting MRI/testing; full update expected the next day.
• Memorable Moment: “I gasped when this happened.” — Dave DuFour [07:47]

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2. Cavaliers' Statement Win & Spurs Concerns

[08:02–12:47]

Cavaliers: Grit and Identity

• The Cavs finally claimed a critical win, defeating the Spurs—a team they usually struggle against in high-leverage games.

• “Their aggressiveness… especially down the stretch, like Evan Mobley showed me a lot.” — Dave DuFour [08:56]

• Evan Mobley’s block on Wembanyama and Jared Allen’s 27 points highlighted a return to identity.

• Esperaheni notes: “This was the most the Cavs looked like the Cavs all year. They ran a 10-man rotation… more cohesive on the defensive side of the ball.” [09:07]

• Craig Porter and Jalen Tyson have emerged as key secondary ballhandlers.

Spurs: Shooting Woes and Growing Pains

• Spurs followed up an 8-game win streak with two straight losses, shooting just 23% from three in both games.
  • “You’re not going to win a lot of basketball games in the NBA shooting 23%.” — Dave DuFour [10:47]
• Need more diverse offense for Wembanyama, easier shots, and a plan to realign their offense as he reincorporates into the starting lineup.
  • “They found an identity with that three-guard lineup… What’s the ax to the chisel, etc.? How does that work in tandem? You gotta find Wemby easier shots.” — Esperaheni [12:07]

Notable Quotes

• “Their biggest concern is going to be shooting the basketball, especially from three.” — Dave DuFour [10:53]
• “If they’re not going to make [threes], they’re going to have a hard time scoring in general.” — Dave DuFour [11:14]

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3. Raptors-Magic: Playoff Preview & Scottie Barnes’ Star Turn

[13:25–15:29]

Key Points

• Thrilling comeback: “21 point comeback for the Raptors. This is the second night of a back-to-back, Scottie Barnes with more clutch blocks.”
  • “He leads the league in clutch blocks this year… every time a game is close he’s making a play around the basket.” — Dave DuFour [13:35]
• Scottie Barnes’ exclusion from top 20 All-Star voting is baffling to the hosts.
  • “I just think that’s absurd… If there was a best player for the Raptors… I would say it’s Scottie Barnes this year.” — Esperaheni [14:18]
• Raptors show resilience; tied for the second most comebacks this season.

Bench Depth & Rotations

• Jamal Shed’s steady play was key in the comeback; Immanuel Quickley was benched in the 4th quarter.
  • “I think they could maybe take off if they move Shed into the starting lineup.” — Dave DuFour [15:29]

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4. Chicago Bulls Check-In with Joel Lorenzi

[18:37–31:31]

Bulls’ Misfortunes Continue

• Injuries to Kobe White (same calf as preseason) and Josh Giddy (hamstring) compound a blowout loss to the Wolves.
• “The Bulls are Bullsing it up… This thing could snowball like it did when they… lost seven of eight.” — Joel Lorenzi [19:40]
• Caution expected with Kobe White—longer timeline likely due to previous injury and upcoming trade deadline.

The Kobe White Dilemma

• White’s value, injury risk, and potential trade: Minnesota Timberwolves are rumored to have interest, but it’s unclear what his actual playoff role could be.
  • “If he goes in Minnesota, is he in a sixth man role? Is that better for him?… Where does he truly sit for a winning team?” — Joel Lorenzi [24:14]
• Bulls have been notoriously passive at the deadline:
  • “Bulls generally do not deal at the deadline. They do not swing these deals. They have not been explosive on these markets.” — Drew Ski [25:40]

Anthony Davis Rumor Dissected

• Hosts and Joel dissect the idea of Chicago trading for Anthony Davis:
  • “I have many gripes… namely the obvious, his availability… The fact that we’re doing semantics and mental gymnastics about his availability should mean something.” — Joel Lorenzi [27:55]
  • Joel argues Chicago should move toward a youth-driven rebuild, not another big-name acquisition for mediocrity’s sake.
  • “It’s probably… smarter to rebuild and actually build a defense younger and from the ground up.” — Joel Lorenzi [28:41]
  • “If we were going to summarize this whole segment for Bulls fans—if you want Anthony Davis, Joel Lorenzi says have some self-respect.” — Dave DuFour [29:52]

On Bulls’ Perennial Limbo

• Chicago “stuck in the middle”, failing to tank properly or make bold moves.
• “They need to go that route [rebuilt], and Chicago’s probably been overdue for that.” — Joel Lorenzi [30:38]
• “It’s shameful and it shouldn’t happen. The Chicago Bulls had maybe more global cachet than anyone that wasn’t Boston or LA.” — Dave DuFour [30:58]

Closing line: “They’re more interesting of a read than a watch right now.” — Dave DuFour [31:32]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Jokic is worth four guys, man.” — Dave DuFour [04:38]
• “This is currently the best player in the world.” — Esperaheni [04:44]
• “I gasped when this happened.” — Dave DuFour [07:47]
• “If they’re not going to make threes, they’re going to have a hard time scoring in general.” — Dave DuFour [11:14]
• “This was the most Cavs looked like the Cavs all year.” — Esperaheni [09:07]
• “If you want Anthony Davis, Joel Lorenzi says: have some self-respect.” — Dave DuFour [29:52]
• “They’re more interesting of a read than a watch right now.” — Dave DuFour [31:32]

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Takeaways for Non-Listeners

• The Nuggets’ title hopes are in peril if Jokić misses significant time, but their improved depth could limit damage in the short term.
• The Cavaliers showed much-needed mental and physical toughness in a big win over San Antonio, but the Spurs’ lack of shooting is a lingering issue.
• The Raptors’ bench and Scottie Barnes’ two-way impact fueled another improbable comeback, strengthening their playoff credentials.
• Bulls’ season derailed by injuries and indecision; the franchise is at a crossroads—continue the status quo or finally commit to a proper rebuild?

—
For more details, Bulls insights, and fast daily NBA recaps, catch The Athletic NBA Daily wherever you listen to podcasts.

Transcript

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Elf (Tall Guy)]

Zoey, this thing weighs a ton.

[Drew Ski]

Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.

[Grainger Announcer]

Santa.

[Dave Dufour]

Santa, did you get my letter?

[Elf (Tall Guy)]

He's talking to you britches.

[Drew Ski]

I'm not.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Of course he did.

[Drew Ski]

Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.

[Elf (Tall Guy)]

And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile. You can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies, right, Mrs. Claus?

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

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[Drew Ski]

Old phone or give it as a gift.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

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[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

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[Elf (Tall Guy)]

My side of the tree is slipping.

[Dave Dufour]

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[Esperaheni]

Foreign.

[Dave Dufour]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for December 30, 2025. I'm Dave Dufour here with Esperaheni. Coming up, Nicola Jokic left with an injury. We're going to talk about what that could mean for the Nuggets. The Cavs get a big win over the spurs, and Joel Lorenzi is here to talk about the Bulls and what they may be doing at the deadline. Good morning, everybody. Sad morning.

[Esperaheni]

Yes. No, not a good morning, actually.

[Dave Dufour]

It's a morning of purgatory morning with a U, Maybe. We don't know yet. Yeah, because as we're recording this, we don't know the status of Nicola Jokic's knee. I think s. When we watch so many games, every single night, we see injuries pretty much every night. I mean, there were four or five, six last night, maybe, but injuries.

[Esperaheni]

We see guys come back from injuries pretty quickly, right? So if you send a text, you're like, hey, this guy got hurt. There's a chance he might be back by the time that guy responds to you, you know, a guy like Nikola.

[Dave Dufour]

Jokic going down, though, I mean, it feels. It just feels different. I mean, I think about Tatum Halliburton last year, you know, and again, we don't know the severity of the injury yet, but at the end of the second quarter, right before halftime, honestly, the last play of the first half, there was an odd moment where Jaime Haquez is driving to the basket and Spencer Jones gets shoved a little bit, steps backwards, traps Nicola Jokic's foot, and he kind of moves awkwardly, twists the knee, goes down immediately. He's holding his knee, and, you know, it's just out of character for him. He immediately limps off to the locker room and was called out for the rest of the game. Miami blew out the Nuggets the rest of the game, but nobody really thinking about the game right now because we're starting to think about what does the world look like for the Nuggets. They're losing Jokic. I mean, Christian Brown still out. Cam Johnson's going to be out, you know, another few weeks.

[Esperaheni]

Starters, basically, if Jokic is out for an extended period, seven starters.

[Dave Dufour]

Because Jokic, you know, Yokich is worth four guys, man.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

This is.

[Dave Dufour]

I mean, this is.

[Esperaheni]

Dude, we just made the case that he's having the best season ever yesterday. You know, we just made the case for this. So the fact that we Sound so deflated makes a lot of sense because this is currently the best player in the world and for the most part in NBA history. If you look back over the last few decades, the best player in the world typically doesn't miss a lot of time. And by the way, Jokic has been very healthy like all throughout his career. He's only had one year where he's played less than 70 games and that was 69 games in. He had.

[Dave Dufour]

He just. He had a nice season.

[Esperaheni]

Still had a nice season, still MVP worthy. Like he has not missed a ton of games in his career. And the fact that he fell down also wincing a reaction that we haven't necessarily seen from him a ton. That's what makes this concerning. Again, hopefully not serious. Hopefully maybe a hyper extended knee that's gives him maybe a month out and not something that's season ending for a guy who is the best player in the NBA. I will say they might be able to survive a couple of weeks to a month without Jokic and survive. By survive I mean not die because.

[Dave Dufour]

They maybe fall to the play in.

[Esperaheni]

Yes. Yeah, the Nuggets are doing better this year without Jokic than they have in previous years. If you remember from all of our MVP discussions, Jokic, his on off numbers are always absurd. Right. But this year it's a little bit more even. So, the Nuggets are only losing the minutes with Jokic off of the floor by 2.7 points, which might sound bad. It's not bad compared to what it's been in the past when they have completely cratered and it's been like -12, -15. Jokic has a plus 21 point differential. That's how it usually is. But their depth has helped them this year and the fact that Jonas Valanchunas is on the roster, they have a feasible starting center moving forward. Jamal Murray for all intents and purposes is having his best year of his career. My glass half full take to this is hey, maybe they'll be able to survive a little bit.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, for me the glass half empty. This was two losses in a row. Yeah, first two games of a seven game road trip to the east coast and that's going to be tough regardless. Even with Jokic out there, that was going to be a, a tough trip for them. That's the short term. I mean the long term, obviously it's a, it's a season changer for the Nuggets. If something longer than this, they may be getting healthier this week. You know, there were some reports that, that they might be getting some guys back to the starting lineup. So maybe this speeds that up and they're able to, to, you know, withstand a couple weeks if yoka ch to miss a little bit of time. But, but I mean, you know, we don't know anything yet. And as soon as we do, I'm, I'm assuming we'll be updating this, this story tomorrow on the show because literally the, I mean, I gasped when this happened.

[Drew Ski]

Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

The Nuggets did say that they're, they're going to be doing testing. That's what Sam Amick from the Athletic reported, that they are going to be doing testing the next day. So we will have an update for you, but for now, just morning.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Santa]

All right.

[Dave Dufour]

Well, hey, we've been talking about the Cavs and how they're down and maybe it's time they, they need to explore the trade market and they finally got a big win in a big game that they needed. They beat the spurs last night as. Look, the spurs now lost two in a row. We'll get to them in a second because I.

[Esperaheni]

Do you want to do the spurs fraud? Take that. You did.

[Dave Dufour]

Well, listen, okay, I don't know if two games is enough. You know, let me see the third.

[Esperaheni]

Getting.

[Dave Dufour]

No, the spurs are obviously frauds. We will get to that in a second. But the Cavs, they finally win a big game. This has been an issue for them. You know, they keep getting beat by good teams. I mean, they, they've lost to the Bulls. You know, also, let's, let's make no mistake. They've lost some, some bad ones too, but they haven't been able to get up for the big games. And you know, they got blown out by the Rockets. We lost, they lost to the Knicks recently, so it was actually good to see them step up. I thought their aggressiveness in this game, especially down the stretch, like Evan Mobley showed me a lot. You know, a block on Victor Wyama around the basket. I really thought that their fight was more evident in this game.

[Esperaheni]

This was the most. The Cavs look like the Cavs all year. I mean, you could argue the first half of that game on Christmas versus the Knicks was the best that they look. But for the most part, this was the best game that I've seen from them this year. And, and part of that is because they were fully healthy and they ran a 10 man rotation that did not include Lonzo ball. But it felt like they were more cohesive on the defensive side of the ball. I really like Craig Porter and Jalen Tyson for them as secondary ball handlers coming off of the bench for Garland and Mitchell. And Garland looked good tonight. He had 11 assists. He was dishing and diming, getting into the teeth of the defense more often. You talk about the, the, the grit and just playing a little bit tougher because truthfully, one characteristic this Cavs team has had for the last few years is that they can play soft at times. Jared Allen and Evan Mobley did not place off tonight. So that's kind of what they need. Moving forward is just a grit and a toughness to them. And I know all of those sound like cliches, but it's just at some point you have to what kind of team you are.

[Dave Dufour]

You know, they are real things that have to exist. I mean, there's a mental aspect to the sport too. Jared Allen had 27 points. I mean, they dominated the spurs starting lineup. I mean, they, they did a really good job against Wimby. You know, we talk a lot about how they play two bigs and there are times where I feel like they shrink. They did not against the Spurs. Now if I could swing to the spurs, who lost two straight after they, you know, had that nice eight game winning streak, they've shot 23% from three in the last two games in each game. Yeah, you're not going to win a lot of basketball games in the NBA shooting 23%. This is a concern for them. If I was. If, you know, we poke holes in every team. Yeah, this team, their biggest concern is going to be shooting the basketball, especially from three. Wemby did have a runner three in this game, which is.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, one of their seven.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, I would love to see them get some, some better looks than they were getting. But, you know, credit the Cavs. The Cavs did a really good job, I think, of, of limiting the threes from, from the spurs last night. But if they're not going to make them, I mean, they definitely have to take more than they did in the game last night, but if they're not going to make them, they're going to have a hard time scoring in. In general.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, I was just looking at this. They're basically middle of the pack in attempts and percentage this season, which is, I think better than what people expected coming into the year. You know, most of the conversation we heard about the San Antonio spurs was their lack of shooting or the questionable shooting from their guards. And that hadn't played a factor because Devin Vassell was shooting the ball well because Harrison Barnes was shooting the ball well. Champagne had, while he's inconsistent, can shoot the ball well. I, I think part of what they need moving forward is probably a little bit more diversity for Victor Wembanyama. Incorporating him back into the lineup, but finding him to your point, the right shots in the right areas of the floor, getting him just easy looks is part of the process of reincorporating that guy into your team. Because they found an identity with that three guard lineup of hey, we're going to batter teams and get into the pain as much as possible. What's the second part of that? Right. What's the ax to the chisel, et cetera, et cetera. How does that work in tandem with each other? You got to find Wemby easier shots even though he did have a good game tonight.

[Dave Dufour]

Sure. Yeah. But you think about the way that this offense was kind of thriving when he was coming off the bench.

[Drew Ski]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

For those few games. I mean it is kind of interesting when you think about just their identity shifts quite a bit where you got to find the big man. I mean it's impossible to miss him, but their identity shifts quite, quite a bit when he's.

[Esperaheni]

Well, the usage shifts too.

[Dave Dufour]

Right.

[Esperaheni]

And, and the area of the floor where the passes are most coming from also shifts. Right. If you're working in the high post area, then some of those corner looks for Harrison Barnes and Devon Missile might look a little bit differently than when it's a drive. You know, defense collapses into the paint and it's a kick out to one of those guys. It's just a different area to catch the ball from. And so some of your shooters maybe not dealing with the, I guess regression, if you want to call it, from what they were to start this year. I'm not worried about the spurs at all. We just talked about how great they were and how they can make a run this year. But overall, I guess it's a question they have to ask moving forward.

[Dave Dufour]

Do we call Raptors Magic a playoff preview at this point? Feels like this is going to be like four or five, right? Yeah, I could see it.

[Esperaheni]

I could see this being the one.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. Wild game.

[Drew Ski]

Oh yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Square 21 point comeback for the Raptors. This is the second night of a back to back Scotty Barnes with more clutch blocks. I mean this guy leads the the league in clutch blocks this year and I feel like, I mean matches the eye, test the numbers. It does seem like every time a game is close he's making a play around the basket. And this game Was no different. He sealed the deal with a block.

[Esperaheni]

Hey, you know what's crazy? So the all Star returns just happened. They showed the fan votes and whatever and Scotty Barnes was not in the top 20. And I just. I think that's absurd if there's a guy that.

[Dave Dufour]

Do you.

[Esperaheni]

It's absurd in the basketball context of things. Not absurd in the fans not voting for him.

[Dave Dufour]

I understand that the center of the universe is Toronto, Canada, but.

[Drew Ski]

But.

[Esperaheni]

No, no, no. Look, I'm just saying if there was. If there was a best player for the Raptors, and we've talked about this before, I would. I would say it's Scotty Barnes this year because of what he does on the defensive side of the ball. This Raptors team has had a crazy 48 hours. I mean, you think of the warriors game, the overtime, making that comeback and now this one. They've sort of developed the habit of clawing back from behind, which is a very young team thing to do. They are tied for second most and comebacks this season. It's just one of those things that they've developed as a habit. But part of that is the bench. I know you're a big Jamal Shed guy. He was a huge part of this comeback too. They're. They're just.

[Dave Dufour]

Listen, having a guy who's as a point guard is a table setter isn't a bad thing. You know, they all have to be score. Score first. And I mean, even though he does score the basketball pretty well, I just think that they look better and more balanced when he's out there as the point guard.

[Esperaheni]

Well, the other story tonight from the Raptor side is that Emmanuel quickly got benched. He did not play in that fourth quarter. It was mostly Jamal Shed and those other guys who were running the team. And so to your point. Table setting point.

[Dave Dufour]

I think that they could maybe take off if they move Shed into the starting lineup. But we'll find out. I don't know, We'll. We'll ask the people of Toronto who the capital of the world. All right, guys, the universe stick around. After the break. We got Joel Lorenzi here to talk about the Bulls and their plans for the trade deadline.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Elf (Tall Guy)]

Zoe. This thing weighs a ton.

[Drew Ski]

Drew, Ski, lift with your legs, man.

[Santa]

Santa.

[Dave Dufour]

Santa, did you get my letter?

[Elf (Tall Guy)]

He's talking to you britches.

[Drew Ski]

I'm not.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Of course he did.

[Drew Ski]

Right? Santa, you know my elf, Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.

[Elf (Tall Guy)]

And elf, I'm six three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies, right?

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

Mrs. Claus I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister and AT T Mobile there's no trade in needed when you switch so you can keep your old phone or.

[Drew Ski]

Give it as a gift.

[Mrs. Claus's Sister]

And the best part? You can make the switch to T Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.

[Elf (Tall Guy)]

Nice. My side of the tree is slipping.

[Dave Dufour]

Kimber the holidays are better. AT T Mobile switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores.

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[Santa]

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[Dave Dufour]

Well, as we so often do here on the NBA Daily, we book a guest ahead of time. Time means the team that they cover getting blown out. Joel Lorenzi covers the Bulls for us at the Athletic. What's up, Joel?

[Esperaheni]

Daily Curse.

[Dave Dufour]

Listen, the Bulls, hey, they've been winning games. We get Joel back on the show, and not only are they blown out by the Wolves, but they lose Kobe White and Josh Giddy to injury in the game. It's insult to injury. Joel, what's going on with the Bulls, man?

[Drew Ski]

I. First of all, I didn't know there was a NBA Daily Curse.

[Esperaheni]

Welcome to it.

[Dave Dufour]

Welcome to it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Drew Ski]

Okay.

[Esperaheni]

You've been touching.

[Dave Dufour]

For what it's worth.

[Drew Ski]

Oh, boy. For what it's worth, they lost last game. Very. I mean, very crappy way to lose. Giannis Windmills, last second, there's a scuffle. Whatever. We. We come into this whole. It's a. It becomes a pride and ego thing, whatever. So the curse. I don't know if you can take complete credit for the curse.

[Dave Dufour]

The Bulls are just.

[Drew Ski]

The Bulls, man. The Bulls are the Bulls. That's what's happening in my life right now. To answer your question, the Bulls are Bullsing it up in these next two weeks. Now, with these injuries, however long this might last, we don't know timelines for Giddy or Kobe White at this moment, but Zach Collins, I know Zach Collins. He's out for at least a week, and he's been, like, irrationally important to them. And so this thing could snowball like it did when they played all those lottery teams and lost seven of eight or whatever it was. The Bulls season just has a very different outlook from the first time we talked.

[Esperaheni]

It definitely does. And look like these injuries don't help because for Giddy, it's a hamstring injury, and those are usually not the best or at least take a little bit longer to heal up. Tricky injury. And then with Kobe White, it's that same calf that he was dealing with to start this season.

[Drew Ski]

Yeah. Have you.

[Esperaheni]

I mean, we don't know. We don't have any update right now, but what do you think that timeline is for these guys? You know, I guess heading forward.

[Drew Ski]

Yeah, I can't say with. With Giddy, usually he's been pretty Ironman adjacent. Like, he might sit a game, and then they. I don't. I don't know what this injury, the degree of it. I know he limped off a pretty Noticeable limp. And so I don't know with Kobe, I can tell you their behavioral patterns with the way they've treated us. I mean, first of all, like you said, it's the same calf he injured in August. They kept him out three months, first 11 games of the season, his entire training camp, everything. So he already was kind of in this weird period they would describe as, hey, this is his training camp. Getting thrown into the fire in the regular season, trying to make this thing work. They need so many bodies, they need so much. As much offensive firepower as they can get, frankly, as many ball handlers as they can have. And they have many, many that are just average. So like this was, this was already weirdish period for Kobe. And then that, that, that Milwaukee game, the second half of a back to back, that was the first back to back he's played since he came back. And so we know that they've kind of slow footed this and they weren't playing them in back to backs for a while. And they want to be more cautious than not because especially not just with, with his now history, he's also injured the other calf in this season, but also like the league wide trend of where the calf stuff is going and you know, whether the data supports that it's loosely connected to the Achilles stuff. Like they just want to be cautious and this is a guy too that if they are eventually going to shop him, I don't know how likely it is if they are eventually going to finally act on the asset that he is. This is a crucial time. You've got five, six weeks left into the trade deadline. So I imagine they'll be as cautious as ever with this injury now.

[Dave Dufour]

Well, I'm glad you mentioned that because I imagine this Bulls team is looking to make some moves and Kobe White is one of the names at the top of the list. I know that. You know, we've heard reports that the Minnesota Timberwolves are interested in them. I could see a lot of teams being a fit for Kobe White, you know, maybe the Golden State warriors, you know, let someone crazy, I guess. What, what have you heard? What, what are you looking at around the league when it comes to the Bulls making moves over the course of the next few weeks? Are there ways that they can improve? You know, is it an Anthony Davis trade?

[Drew Ski]

I hope not. I don't know. Well, on the Kobe front, I can say that I know at the time the initial report came out that was kind of minimized and you know, teams make calls as soon as that, as soon as guys become trade eligible and they kind of just plant their flags. I don't know. I don't think that escalated to negotiation at the time. That could obviously change as we get closer to the deadline, I think. I mean, it's becoming pretty clear, like obviously the league is more nuanced than this. The trends happen so fast. But like, I think some of the best teams can say that there's a price of admission as far as how many ball handlers you need, how many sound guys that could handle coverages in a playoff setting. Right. And Minnesota for a while has known that Ant is their guy and they want to alleviate some of the coverages that happen with him because there's maybe no star right now as at least high leverage, high scoring guard that's as susceptible to double teams right now than Ant just because of the personnel. So it makes sense, right? Like a basketball thing. It makes sense. The questions I'd ask then, as far as the basketball fit, this is not even the business side of it. The basketball fit. I'd ask, well, what role does that put Kobe in? You can. I mean, he's in like year six. We can. I don't want to put a ceiling on him. Right. I mean, there are encouraging things about him. At his best, he can score in a flurry. He has good free throw numbers, good free throw rates. But he's also very turnover pro right now. The decision making is maybe not what you want it to be, especially next to a guy like Ant. If he goes in Minnesota, is he in a six man role? Is that better for him? Like what is he truly. Where does he truly sit for a winning team? Is the question in a playoff team? Is the question on the business side of this deal if it's going to be feasible, like, how hard will the Bulls make it to do business? Will this be an easy call? You're already.

[Dave Dufour]

If you're the Wolves and you think he's only a six man, what are you willing to give up?

[Drew Ski]

Yeah, sure.

[Dave Dufour]

And if you're the Bulls is even more valuable to keep, frankly.

[Drew Ski]

I mean, people know the Bulls generally do not deal at the deadline. They do not swing these deals. They have not been explosive on these markets.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, well, history has told us like they, they are very, I guess, patient with their assets.

[Drew Ski]

Right. Too patient. Nicest way to put it.

[Dave Dufour]

All of a sudden. A and right. Powder's wet. I mean, the Bulls, they've squandered. They keep squandering these guys. I mean, you know, they're. They're Stuck in this real odd in between place. I mean, I don't want to continue to go back to the Caruso trade, but it's like the Caruso trade is kind of an exclamation point when we're talking about what this team has done. And I don't know, it just feels like they could potentially be fumbling another opportunity. Now part of this is Kobe White's not healthy and part of the where we haven't seen growth this season especially. Right. Like you mentioned, we're watching this guy basically go through training camp and now, you know, he's out again. So he's a little bit of a mystery box. I think if you're looking from the outside in s. You know, look, we. We've been high on Kobe White because of the ball handling and the shooting. And as a secondary guy, I think he makes, you know, Joel, you made the point about what's his role next to Ant. I think on any team it's going to be the second guy. It's not going to be the number one.

[Drew Ski]

Right?

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

I mean, honestly, even you could see with the way the Bulls priorities are shifting to giddy that he's the secondary guy and the secondary creator. And I think that's also interesting when it comes to his contract discussion this year. If they do do decide to keep him. Right. Like that's another level to this is whether instead of trading him, they actually entertain the idea of keeping him around long term. I think that's one thing that you look for. But I am curious, Joel, like, why not on the Anthony Davis front? Because you have Vuchovic's expiring salary. You obviously have Kobe White, who we just talked about that together, plus some stuff could kind of probably get you in the door or at least in the conversation for Anthony Davis, you'd obviously have to include picks and whatnot, depending on how much you really value ad. Why not Anthony Davis for the Chicago Bulls?

[Drew Ski]

Yeah, I have many gripes with it, namely the obvious, his availability. Right. And I know people are going to point to the last years and say, well, he played this many games. This many games. The fact that we're doing semantics and mental gymnastics about his availability should mean something.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Drew Ski]

And also I like, I, I hear the people who are arguing for him. I come from covering Oklahoma City, a place with fewer resources and a need to rebuild. And I just, I wonder about the standards of people who want AD and the standards of people who are fine with this current roster.

[Esperaheni]

So being okay with Mediocrity? Is that what you're saying?

[Drew Ski]

Yes. I mean my thing is, look, it's probably, it's not safer, but it's probably smarter to rebuild and actually build a defense younger and from the ground up. But then I, then again I get people who are like, well, are you gonna luck into a room protector as good as ad? Yeah, well, I guarantee you you'll probably look into somebody who plays also.

[Esperaheni]

How are you supposed to tank if you're not going to full fledged tank like leaning.

[Drew Ski]

I get why people are talking about AD for these reasons, but then you're just continuing to accept the standard. What's become standard around here. And to me it's not, it's not to win, it's not to chase championships. It's to survive and float and be a part of this billion dollar, maybe.

[Dave Dufour]

Get a playoff series if you're lucky. And the play ins kind of killing that for them because they're not getting the play in.

[Esperaheni]

I mean they host a playing game. That's one.

[Drew Ski]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

I mean playoff, but it's one. Yeah. I think if we were going to summarize this whole segment for Bulls fans, if you want Ant Anthony Davis, Joel Lorenzi says have some self respect.

[Drew Ski]

I'm not far off.

[Dave Dufour]

Embrace the tank. Hey, we've been saying this for years about this Bulls team. They're stuck in the middle and I mean it's why I don't necessarily love the Josh Giddy move and you know, sticking with him because I just don't think the ceiling is all that high.

[Esperaheni]

With by the way, this is, this is a case against changing the tank rules because the Bulls should be able to freely tank and do it in a way where they can win or get a top three pick in the lottery and then move on with their lives.

[Dave Dufour]

They are trying to win games.

[Drew Ski]

Yeah, right. And for, and because of that and because of the market, they deserve no sympathy. They're not getting sympathy from me. I mean Oklahoma City, San Antonio, you can argue about the lottery luck and how it's unfair with the pieces they have in place. They need to go that route and Chicago's probably been overdue for that. I mean I never seen a big market that has to move like a small market team because people don't want to go there because their operation and business hasn't been conducted.

[Esperaheni]

Athletics and Moneyball. This is. Yeah, it's a different story.

[Dave Dufour]

It's shameful and it shouldn't happen. The Chicago Bulls had maybe more global cachet than, than anyone that wasn't Boston or la.

[Drew Ski]

They're still cashing in on it.

[Esperaheni]

They still have still cashing in on it.

[Dave Dufour]

Everything in the N is all about Michael Jordan and we don't think about him on the Wizards. So yeah, you would think that maybe there would be a push for this.

[Esperaheni]

But speaking of insights into mediocrity, the Chicago Bulls.

[Dave Dufour]

There you go, insights. Insights into excellence though that would. That should be Joel Lorenzi's book, guys. Go and read them over at the Athletic. He covers the Bulls for us.

[Drew Ski]

They're.

[Dave Dufour]

They're more interesting of a read than a watch right now. I'll say thank you to Joel for hanging out. Thanks to Aspirin Henny. I'm Dave DeFore. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.

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[Drew Ski]

Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.

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Santa.

[Dave Dufour]

Santa, did you get my letter?

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[Drew Ski]

I'm not.

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Of course he did.

[Drew Ski]

Right Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.

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