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- [00:00]
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- [03:22]
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- [04:05]
Sam Amick
Hello and welcome to the Tampering podcast part of the Athletic NBA Show Network. I'm Sam Amick, NBA national writer at the Athletic. We got usual suspect Anthony Slater on the West Coast. We are going to bring in fellow usual suspect Fred Katz from the East Coast a little bit later in the show, especially because his old team, the Washington Wizards, made a coaching change. But we will get to that a little bit later. We're going to start today this week's show focusing on the Milwaukee Bucks. I'm sure all the NBA hoop heads are shocked to hear that that is the focus. Adrian Griffin is out. Joe Prunty is in temporarily. Doc Rivers around the corner.
- [04:44]
Anthony Slater
How long is Joe Brunty in, by the way? Like, we'll get there.
- [04:47]
Sam Amick
Let me, let me bring our guy home. Let me bring our guy insulator.
- [04:51]
Anthony Slater
Hold on. Just kick it right to him. Let's get.
- [04:53]
Fred Katz
We're getting there.
- [04:54]
Sam Amick
We're getting there. We got Eric Naim, who Milwaukee Bucks beat writer all over the story as always. Always one of my favorites. Slater, you know this. Eric, you know this. One of the funnier parts of my role at the Athletic is I feel like, you know, I end up roaming between different teams and markets. And so it's always a pleasure and a joy to Work side by side with Eric. Usually in our experience, Eric, it's just been waxing poetic about the greatness of the Milwaukee Bucks or the latest Giannis out of the compo contract extension. This was a little bit different. We've been in the trenches, so to speak, the last couple of weeks in this story, trying to pump it out. What's up, brother? How are you?
- [05:36]
Fred Katz
I'm great. I could use a little bit of sleep, but I don't think that's really in the cards for me. I think we're gonna have a Doc Rivers introductory press conference at some point in the next 24 hours and then the Bucks are going to play again and then I get to go out to the west coast for a five game trip. So, yeah, there is. There's no sleep in my future, but that's okay.
- [05:57]
Sam Amick
By the way, shout out Doc Rivers. Man, you lining this thing up. So. So you get straight to LA right after you take the job. Way to go.
- [06:07]
Eric Naim
Just saying.
- [06:08]
Sam Amick
I'm sure there's no coincidence whatsoever, by the way, because I didn't finish the preview well enough. Of course, for the non Bucks people, non Wizards people, we will talk trade deadline season on the back end of this pot as well and get into some of the rumor and, and chatter and intel there. But Eric, let's go. You know, perspective on the decision and how they got here. We don't need to unpack the entire thing because we could honestly do a two hour pod. But I think you're probably comfortable with me throwing it to you in this way and framing it this way. A little slice of media life I don't mind sharing. Like, listen, you and I and Sham Sharania were well aware that Adrian Griffin was in trouble for quite some time. It was a bit of an open secret around the league. And so we were putting together essentially a reported analysis on that situation and why he faced a fair amount of pressure. You know, then the move comes before we can get our story out. And we had a good old time, you know, kind of kicking it into high gear. And honestly, for me, it was a lot of fun. Like if you can provide that kind of insight quickly for the readers and the fans. It was a grand total of 89 minutes. After the news broke, we had our story up about, you know, why they did what they did. But now that we are in audio form here on the pod, why don't you tell people why they did what they did?
- [07:26]
Fred Katz
Why.
- [07:26]
Sam Amick
Why is Adrian Griffin out and Doc Rivers in?
- [07:29]
Fred Katz
I mean, to me, I just think It's. They didn't meet expectations. That's where it starts. You look at this team, and yes, they do have the second best record in the league. They were 30 and 13. When Adrian Griffin gets fired. But you don't have to go all that far back in their schedule to look and be like, huh, that doesn't look Quite right. A141,135 win over the Pistons. That doesn't look.
- [07:56]
Sam Amick
A win is a win, Eric.
- [07:58]
Fred Katz
And, you know, a trademark of the Adrian Griffin era was reminding us that wins are hard to come by in the NBA and everyone is valuable. But it was clear that that just wasn't good enough for this team. That when you look at what this team is trying to do, the level at which they're trying to win, this is a team that has really not been shy at all about telling the world that the expectation is a championship. That's why Mike Boonholzer was gone. That's why they needed to find a new coach. That's why you make the trade for Damian Lillard.
- [08:30]
Sam Amick
Like all.
- [08:31]
Fred Katz
Everything is building toward the championship. That's the only way a season is a success and not a failure at the end of the year is you go out there and you win a championship. So that's the expectation. And they just got to a point where they have one of the worst defensive months in, I mean, since I've been covering the team. I mean, they were 28th in defense in the first 11 games in January. They're giving up 130 every night. They're just getting blown out of the water. And the, the mistakes that you would see were just, I mean, I. The final game of the Adrian Griffin era, you know, Chris Middleton makes a jumper in the fourth quarter, fourth quarter, 10 minutes left, makes a jumper. They run down the floor and they don't know who they have. And they give up a layup to Isaiah Stewart. And this is not an isolated incident. Like, this is like a once a night type of thing that occurs with the Milwaukee Bucks. And you're just thinking, like, how, how does that happen? Like those, those aren't. Those are mistakes that happen in high school games. And even good high school teams don't have those mistakes happen. Like, how is this happening again and again and again? And it just got to a spot where it was too much for the organization. And then that's not even going into all of the dynamics that, you know, you and I have been talking about for the last month, right? That the, the idea that, you know, Damian Lillard still trying to figure out how he works in Milwaukee, what his role is in Milwaukee, making sure that he feels appreciated in Milwaukee. Like he's used to being the man and now he has to, you know, be the number two guy next to Giannis. And that's been an adjustment and it hasn't gone particularly smooth on the offense. But even though they are the second best offense in the league, it just hasn't looked great on that end. And you just kind of add all of these things up and I think you just got to a spot where that locker room really wasn't sure what they were doing on a night to night basis. They were trying to find their identity. They weren't sure of, of the schemes, and it didn't feel like the schemes were putting them in a particularly good place on either end of the ball. You know, Adrian Griffin wasn't able to communicate his vision for the team all that well and you just, you just get to a spot where the second best team in the league from a record perspective, just doesn't know who they are. And that seems, seems really difficult. 41 games into a season.
- [10:52]
Anthony Slater
This also, to me, outside looking in at least seems like it stems back to the summer where he does not appear to be in a unanimous hire organizationally. Right. And some ways, and you guys can, can color this in more than me, was like a Giannis hire, you know, part of the pitch to get him to sign, which he did, by the way, so that's a success. And then now it seems like to me, especially with, you know, some of the quotes coming out of there, some of the stories I've read from you, Eric, over the last couple months, it's like Giannis seemed to be kind of turning his eye like, you know, this isn't going well. And if you lose the person who seemed to be most, you know, the biggest, the loudest backer of your hire, then who do you have? And that, that's what it seemed like to me. Like the contract is the contract and, and the optics are the optics. Like that was maybe a hindrance, but it didn't. Just, just didn't seem to me like there was anybody, you know, loudly saying, hey, no, we can't do this right now.
- [11:50]
Sam Amick
Well, but Eric before you, you kind of jump in, I'll add in Slater. That's all on point. Also, the timeline wise, it's just a massive factor that, that the Lillard trade happened after Adrian was hired, you know, when he was, when he was hired, this was not part of the calculus the stakes get raised.
- [12:06]
Anthony Slater
The.
- [12:06]
Sam Amick
The intensity and the pressure in the room goes up when you have Damian Lillard. You cannot get a player of that caliber and not have it be sunshine and rainbows during the regular season. Like, playoffs are going to come and you hope to achieve your goals there. But, man, everybody envisioned pick and roll heaven. Incredible dynamic duo. And all of a sudden, to a degree, it felt like there was. Well, Dame's nice, but he's kind of one of the guys with Chris Middleton and Malik Beasley and maybe even campaign. And I think that's at times, the way he saw it. It just didn't pop like people thought it would.
- [12:39]
Eric Naim
Can I actually add one more thing? We're just adding off of each other.
- [12:43]
Sam Amick
Yeah.
- [12:43]
Eric Naim
Yeah. I wanted to make sure.
- [12:46]
Sam Amick
Welcome, buddy.
- [12:47]
Eric Naim
I wanted to make sure that Eric speaks as little as possible on this podcast. So I do just want to jump in with one thing. Eric, I want to get your perspective on something for real, because, Sam, you mentioned that the hire came before they made the Lillard trade. And the beginning of the year, the Bucks bust out this completely different type of defense from how they were running, you know, under Mike Pudenholzer.
- [13:09]
Fred Katz
Right.
- [13:09]
Eric Naim
And Brook Lopez is straying all the way to, like, the Canadian border in order to defend, pick and rolls, and he's just totally not bought in. And. And their. Their defense is floundering. And you mentioned the transition defense stuff, but especially, you can't think of a.
- [13:23]
Anthony Slater
Small Wisconsin town to. To reference when we go into Canada.
- [13:30]
Eric Naim
Too close.
- [13:31]
Anthony Slater
Green Bay, maybe?
- [13:32]
Eric Naim
No, that's too close. He was going all the way to the Canadian border. That's where he was going, which is, like, probably in the middle of one of the lakes.
- [13:40]
Anthony Slater
But he was probably pretty close.
- [13:42]
Eric Naim
He was swimming. He was swimming. They would. They ran up. They ran up a swim coverage. But anyway, I don't even remember what I'm saying right now.
- [13:52]
Fred Katz
No, they changed the defense.
- [13:54]
Eric Naim
So what I was curious about is they. They. They. They run these different coverages, and you look at the coverages and you're like, why in the world are you running this with this personnel? And they obviously do it for four or five games, and then Griffin famously just changes it back to what they were doing under Bud after they went through a whole training camp learning all this new stuff and the whole beginning of the season to learn all these new. This new stuff. And it kind of felt to me almost like he had this idea of, like, all right, well, we have Jrue Holiday, who's awesome. So let's see if we can utilize him even more aggressively. And then once Holiday left and the composition of the roster changed, none of the strategies changed. She was just like, here's what we're doing and we're just going to stick. This is what we do. Now, how much of his inability to, to adjust in all of those ways, like, where did that come from? How did the organization view it? Is that, like the root of all of this? Is it, Is it a root of all of this?
- [14:55]
Fred Katz
Yeah, I mean, I think it's certainly, it's appropriate that you use the Canadian border, because the, the worst part of that was a game in Toronto. Fourth game of the season. Toronto is not good offensively to start the year, and the Bucks just get run out of the building. Brook Lopez gets benched for the fourth quarter, he's not playing, and everyone there is just like, that dude is the runner up to defensive player of the year, and he's just getting benched because he's in a scheme that doesn't make any sense. And it gets to a spot where, like, the players literally have to tell Griff, like, hey, we, no, we, we gotta, we gotta stop, man. Like, put Brook by the rim. But it's a, it's an interesting route because one, you're, you're correct and thinking, like, oh, maybe it would have worked out better with Drew Holiday. I still think it. Brook Lopez trapping and blitzing is a disaster. That's a terrible idea, no matter what. But when you look at the Bucs defense to this day, everyone else is still running, or I shouldn't say that. We'll see what happens when Stock Rivers gets in town. But up until this point, 43 games into the season, everybody else is still running the other defense. The only change that they've made is Brook. You just do your thing. Giannis is still switching. Bobby Portis is still up trapping at the level, blitzing. And every team in the league knows it. Bobby had a bunch of steals in the first part of the year in January. He played 224 minutes. He had three steals, and he was blitzing every pick and roll. It seems impossible to blitz and trap that much and only get three steals in that much time because everyone in the league knew all they had to do was dribble out to half court, swing it over, and the Bucks defense was totally broken down. So I, I think when you put it all together, the Dame trade's huge from an expectation standpoint, but also from the idea that Adrian Griffin was coaching one team and then three days before training camp, he gets informed that he's coaching an entirely different team. And I think offensively, they didn't really catch up. I know they didn't catch up defensively, but since Dame is so talented offensively, they can survive on that end. They have so much talent offensively that it'll be fine there, but defensively, they just never figured it out. So I think it was. It may have been doomed from the start, but I do think you just pile up all of these things that, you know, as Sam in Shams and I were talking about writing this story, Sam would be like, oh, we got to focus on this thing. And I'd be like, yeah, but also, there's this other thing that we need to talk about. And then Shams would probably be like, well, we should actually talk about this thing. And it was just all of these things going wrong at the same time. And I think eventually it got to a convergence where it was like, it. There's simply too much going on to that point.
- [17:43]
Sam Amick
Eric, I couldn't agree more. I think, honestly, it's funny to be critical of us on the written side of things. If we had more time, this is one of the stories, like, it was time to bust out some sub headlines. You know what I mean? Like, we needed chapters like, you know, offense slash name, defense, expectations being raised, the Jimmy Haslam factor, the Giannis factor. There was this kind of gumbo that didn't taste very good for Adrian Griffin that led to the decision. I do, though, guys, want to go ahead and spin it forward because shout out to the guys from Nerder, she wrote, Dave Dufour and Seth Pardonow and Modakil yesterday, I thought, also did a really good job breaking down, you know, how the Buck Bucks got to this point. I want to talk about Doc Rivers and how we, you know, see his possible impact here. We can get into a little bit of how he got here. You know, we obviously reported that he was an informal consultant for Adrian going as far back as Vegas. I actually said hello to Doc real briefly before the. The. The game where the Bucks were eliminated by the Pacers, which now is. Is just kind of a funny moment in time as he was kind of cruising through as an ESPN analyst. But listen, even as far back as then, there was, you know, folks's eyebrows getting raised when, when this news got around that Doc was talking to Adrian, talking to the Bucks at the behest of the Bucks. It's just never a great sign. Now, listen, it doesn't always turn out like this, like when Jeff Van Gundy was consulting for Joe Missoula in Boston. There were similar chatter, like, oh, boy, that's probably the next coach. And then that didn't happen. You know, in this instance, it did happen. And so then, shocker. When the news breaks about Adrian getting fired, it takes about 30 seconds for everybody to be hearing that Doc is likely going to be the guy. And the wheels were in motion far before the news broke. But basketball wise, you know, how different of a look is this going to be, locker room confidence? You know, we all know that the Doc is. He's a championship coach who now, you know, it's fine. Scrutiny is deserved. It's a little bit of. I heard, I think, one of the guys on the pod yesterday saying that there's a little dust on that. On that 2008 Celtics title. You can't just kind of lean on that forever. And then Doc didn't get it to where he wanted it to go at Philly, didn't get it to where he wanted it to go with the Clippers. This is a great opportunity for him. What do you think?
- [20:08]
Fred Katz
Yeah, I mean, I think it's. Again, as you're going through the problems, I think some of the tactical stuff is not maybe easy to fix, but just there's some core tenants of what the Bucks were doing defensively that just didn't make any sense.
- [20:26]
Eric Naim
They.
- [20:27]
Fred Katz
They are one of the worst offensive rebounding teams in the league, and Adrian Griffin still had his guys crashing the glass, and it just doesn't make any sense. You don't need any extra points. You're ready second in offense. Like, just have everyone get back and make sure that your transition defense is solid, and their transition defense has been terrible the entire season. So something as simple as that. Just saying, all right, no one's crashing the glass anymore. Giannis, if you're down there, that's great. Brook, if you're down there, that's great. Everybody else get back and just get set up and build a wall. And this is, like, pretty simple, basic stuff, but the numbers in the film would suggest that that is going to help the Bucks defense. Like, just doing that will help the Bucs defense move from somewhere around 20 to maybe somewhere around 15. If they can just execute something like that. That simple.
- [21:15]
Anthony Slater
And that's Docker's thing, too, right? Like, his. The. His teams get back.
- [21:21]
Sam Amick
What. Guys, Where's. Where do you feel like? Where's the ceiling? Defensively, what's a reasonable expectation in terms of defensive rating for this team to, like, what number would have kept Adrian Griffin safe. You know what I mean?
- [21:33]
Fred Katz
I. I think 15. I think the fact that they were down in the 20s and just could never get out of there. To me, to me, I think the Bucks are aware of their changes in personnel, like, talking to people around the team. They know that the formula is different. Like, and I've written this and I've said this multiple places, but, like, the Bucks used to be a great defensive team that would score enough points. They are now a great offensive team that's looking for enough stops like it. It's a fundamental change in who they are. But the Bucks are aware of this, so it's not that they expect the. The team to still beat. John Horst does not think this is a top five defense that's underperforming to 22. He thinks this is, you know, a 10 to 15 defense that hopefully playoff time like the Nuggets did last year, can get just good enough on defense that the buckets will win out and they can win that way in the playoffs.
- [22:31]
Anthony Slater
So by the kind of. I mean, I know they lost Drew Holiday, who's very good, and I know, like, Damian Lillard is not good on defense, but, like, they have Brook Lopez, who's been like a top three defensive player of the year guy the last few years, and Giannis, who's. Has. Has Yanis won a defensive player just top two? Yeah, yeah, he did. Okay, so, like, yeah, that's, you know, me and Sam, you know, we. We were around the Kings plenty where we're looking at their defensive personnel. Like, how do they get to 15, right? And it's like, I think they would kill for the Bucks given one of.
- [23:04]
Sam Amick
Those guys on defense.
- [23:05]
Anthony Slater
Yeah, exactly. So it's like, yeah, you should be able to be at least damn top 15 with Brook Lopez and Gian, if. Even if Sam Amick's guarding the wings.
- [23:13]
Sam Amick
Eric, hey, hey, hey, hey. Come on now.
- [23:16]
Eric Naim
Eric. How much lateral speed? Eric, how much will their defense be helped by them just getting matched up a normal amount in transition? Because, like, with them, it's not just the. It's not just the fast breaks that they give up all the time. It's. It's that what happens is they end up with a small, picking up a big and a big small and a middle, picking up up huge and whatever. And. And. And then they just get exploited in the half court. Like if, let's say they. They get to a normal level of picking guys up in transition, like, where are they on defense, you think?
- [23:48]
Fred Katz
Like I said, like, Just executing transition defense and not even being good at it. Like, just doing the basic things that I think brings them from 22 to 15. And this was one thing that, you know, Sam mentioned Seth partner before from the. From the Nerder podcast. Like, Seth and I wrote about the defense two weeks ago, and every time I kept trying to push Seth to be like, hey, can we talk about this thing in the half court? He was like, no, we can't, because they're not matched up. They're not doing things right in transition. Like, I can't even describe their half court defense because I so rarely see it set. Like, it's just. It's such a disaster in transit transition that I can't even break down the half court. So that's why, again, like, I understand the, the critiques of Doc Rivers. I understand, you know, the playoff record and, you know, maybe he's not going to have the best adjustments, but I do think you saw this team have a lot of success with an elite system builder in Mike Boonholzer. Mike Brunozer is among the best of this. The system. This is how we do it. We're going to get the job done. And then in the playoffs, okay, maybe the adjustments aren't there as you need them. I think Doc Rivers can do a very similar job. Like, I think he can come in, he can get this stuff set up and just run this stuff right during the regular season and then in the playoffs. Yeah, we're gonna have some stuff to figure out and I'm gonna have some adjustments to make and maybe it won't work out.
- [25:17]
Sam Amick
But think about what you just said, though. You just literally said that they're back to the Bouden Holzer calculus.
- [25:22]
Fred Katz
Hey, I. I understand.
- [25:23]
Sam Amick
That's because.
- [25:24]
Anthony Slater
Because Mike Boudenholzer, by the way.
- [25:27]
Sam Amick
Right.
- [25:27]
Anthony Slater
Is that completely off, like, compartmentalized?
- [25:30]
Fred Katz
I think so.
- [25:31]
Sam Amick
Compartmentalize the Celtics title. And Doc's got stuff of his own to prove here. Like, you've got a very large sample size of playoff struggles, which is exactly what the Bucks were trying to get away from in the first place, 100%.
- [25:46]
Fred Katz
So, again, like, as you said, you're kind of going back to whatever that is, but I think you were worried about even getting there this time around, like with Adrian Griffin and the problems that he had that I think you were even concerned about getting to the spots in the playoffs where you could be considered a team that, you know, comes up short or doesn't live up to expectations or whatever that might be. Like, I think that was the bigger concern. So you try to get to that spot. And I think one thing that I haven't talked about yet is it's going to be really interesting to see.
- [26:18]
Anthony Slater
Sam.
- [26:19]
Fred Katz
We were talking about this a little bit before we started recording but like, you know, one of the things that I believe Doc has is a level of gravitas, whatever you want to say that like he can, he can talk to stars, he has that on his resume that he's coached star laden teams and he can talk to them and maybe the stars don't like the things that he says all that often and they don't like being coached by him that much. But I think there's, as you mentioned, there's probably some tough conversations that need to happen with Damian Lillard, with Giannis De Kumbo and getting them on the same page. And I don't know that those conversations were really happening under agency and again, I don't know that they're going to go well under Doc.
- [27:02]
Sam Amick
Well, we also don't know what direction they're going to go and we, again, let's, let's dig a little deeper there. What I set off air was last I checked, Doc didn't exactly thrive in an environment when he had an all star guard and an all star big man trying to figure out whose damn team it was. He told James Harden to get the hell out of the way for Joel Embiid and to feed the big man. And he did. And Joel was mvp. And then ultimately James resented it because a, it didn't pan out in the playoffs and James, you know, took a lot of criticism and then he bounced. I don't know what Doc is going to tell. Is he going to stick to the same script? And you know, I mean, shoot, you know, if you think, I mean Joel and Giannis are, are on that same level and Giannis is more accomplished. So logic would tell you that he's going to once again tell the guard to feed the big man. Except that, that, you know, Dame, I don't think would, would love that conversation. So I don't know what direction that's going to go. But, but that, that parallel is fascinating.
- [28:02]
Fred Katz
Yeah, I, I think it's one of the bigger questions leading into this is one, as we reported in our story, like Dame has been frustrated throughout the year with his role and if you're looking through like, you know, top priorities. Yeah, number one priority, figure out the defense. Fix that and the team's going to be better. But the, the lower level, the, the bubbling kind of Things. The tough, interpersonal dynamic type, human superstar dynamics. The human superstar dynamics underneath. It is like making Giannis and Dame work. And to be clear, Giannis is having an MVP season. Dame is putting up big numbers as well. Like, I know I was talking to Fred last week about filling out an all Star ballot, and it's like, yeah, Dame is one of the. The guards that you should be talking about in the Eastern Conference, whether or not he gets elected, you know, Thursday night. But, like, he should be one of the people that you're talking about. He's been up that type of season. It's not a Dame Lillard season that you saw in Portland, but it's been very good. But there still isn't that. That connection between those two guys. There isn't that cohesiveness for the offense overall. That, yes, number one is figure out the defense, but then below that, you got to figure out how to make Giannis and Dane work better.
- [29:14]
Sam Amick
Fred, you have thoughts and I want to get it to you, but real fast. Let's not forget, guys and Eric, we've talked about this on the air. Dame Lillard had one team on. On his list of desired destinations. It was Miami Heat. He did not get sent where he wanted to go. He then played ball because Milwaukee looked like a good option. It is mid January in Milwaukee. I'm not even trying to be funny. This dude is from the Bay Area. He's from a place where the sunshine is out quite a bit. He spent a lot of time in Portland, which has its range.
- [29:42]
Anthony Slater
Might as well be talking about me because I was in Milwaukee for three days and I'm also from the Bay Area. And it was minus eight, and I was, like, walking down to, you know, the team hotel about four blocks, and I was like, yeah, you know, I'll just walk it. I don't need to Uber that, right. My face was, like, hurting when I got into the lobby. Like, it. My ears had to, like, dethaw. It was like, extremely painful. So, I mean, yeah, and that's not good.
- [30:10]
Sam Amick
Here's my weak attempt at analog. An analogy. If you got a buddy who, like, he wants you to come to some party he's throwing, you don't really feel like going. There's some people there he would like to meet. You're doing him a favor. You might have a little fun, you know, for your friend who you care about. So you go ahead and you go to the party. You show up at the party and, like, nobody hands you a drink. Nobody's asking you if you want Appetizers. You're in the corner and you're not getting, you know, the type of treatment.
- [30:33]
Anthony Slater
That you think you outside on the patio and your. Your mustache is freezing.
- [30:41]
Sam Amick
And you start screaming, give me the damn ball. I want to go back to Portland or Miami. Like, those things are real. Like, we need to continue monitoring, like, how Damien got to Milwaukee.
- [30:51]
Eric Naim
Fred, I was just curious. Is something else coming here? Like, you still have a whole assistant coaching staff that was not hired by Doc. Do you see him? They obviously lost Harry Stotts at the beginning of the year. That could have been a big presence. Who knows how the Adrian Griffin thing goes if Terry Stotts doesn't choose to quit. By the way, like, also, probably why.
- [31:10]
Anthony Slater
The Adrian Griffin thing went where it did is because of Terry Stodge, right?
- [31:13]
Eric Naim
Oh, yeah. I mean, no. No question. That obviously, at least was a sign that things are. We're about to go awry, the fact that Terry Stotts quit before the season even start. But, like, is Terry Stots the head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks right now if he doesn't quit? But anyway, my question is, is Doc. Is Doc going to bring in somebody else? Is he going to bring in, like, an assistant associate head coach with some kind of. Some kind of gusto to be next to him was out there?
- [31:42]
Fred Katz
I mean, I think part of the problem is if you are one of those assistants and you've been on Doc's staff for a while, like, think of Sam Cassell, right? Sam. Sam Cassell has been Doc's guy for forever. You're about to start a season, you need a job, so you go get one. Like, so. So you go to Boston and, you know, if this was. If this happened before the season and the Bucs had decided to hire Doc. Yeah, I don't think Sam Cassell goes to Boston, and instead he's a member of the Milwaukee Bucks coaching staff, but he has a job, and a lot of those people already do. So, like, you have to start thinking about the guys that. That don't have jobs, right? Like, you know, Dave Yeager's a name that's been mentioned, and it's like, yeah, that could happen because, like, it. It makes sense, right? Like, that's someone that isn't currently employed by another team. I think it's really hard in season to pull someone out of that situation as an assistant coach to get them to come to Milwaukee. So I think the Bucs are going to work on it. I think Doc is going to try to hopefully get some more of Those people. But also at this point in the year, it's. It's a really tough spot.
- [32:53]
Sam Amick
The Jaeger name is good. Dave Duford mentioned it in the chat. I would be, you know, surprised if that didn't happen. And honestly, if you hire Doc, I mean, he's Doc Rivers, like, you know, misgivings at all. He typically gets what he wants in these types of situations. So that'll be the other interesting Milwaukee dynamic. Like Slater, you joke about, you know, having been there and seen the cold. I mean, Doc's gonna have his own ver. Doc likes golfing in la. That's what Doc likes. Like, if I'm trucking my ass out to Milwaukee to come coach this team, I'm damn sure gonna get who I want.
- [33:25]
Anthony Slater
He didn't go to Marquette, so fair.
- [33:28]
Sam Amick
Yeah, but I'm not saying he'd never been in Cole.
- [33:30]
Eric Naim
And they do, they do call Sheboygan the Las Vegas of Wisconsin.
- [33:36]
Anthony Slater
They also say that's where Brook Lopez has to get out to on his pick.
- [33:39]
Eric Naim
And rolling way farther, way farther.
- [33:45]
Sam Amick
That was. That was young Doc Rivers, Slater, that was Ed Marquette.
- [33:49]
Anthony Slater
You're right.
- [33:50]
Sam Amick
You're right. This is a dude who's been doing this for a long time. So the Jaeger name, you know, Austin Rivers, you know, in terms, I mean, what do you think about that, Eric? They could use a little help. Again, shout out stuff that was talked about on the nerder pod, but you know, the idea that maybe Austin gets pulled out of his ESPN life and his unemployment at the moment, you know, any. Any chatter about that to this point?
- [34:13]
Fred Katz
Yeah, again, I think, as you said, you know, they're paying what, Doc, 40 mil over the next three years. Like, it's pretty clear that Doc has them in a position where he's going to get some things that he wants. He did that with his salary, he did that with his job. He did that with three years on top of this half of year. Like they're going to try. And as you can tell from a team paying three coaches roughly 25 million, like next year. They have the pockets for it with. Jimmy has them in the mix now. Like they have an ownership group that's willing to go for it. So, yeah, I mean, I think they're two interesting names and we'll see kind of how it all shakes out. Because I think on top of wanting to do that, I think the Bucs also need to work quickly here. This is. This is a situation where they're going to play the Cavs on Friday. They have a back to back with the Pelicans on Saturday. They leave for a five game Western Conference road trap. They played Denver on Monday, so they. They leave for the road on Sunday. So this stuff, no matter what's going to happen, it's got to get moving because they got to. They got to go out and win some games, right? It's championship expectations. Like, you got to keep it rolling, Eric.
- [35:36]
Sam Amick
You got to go to a Doc Rivers press conference, I believe. Am I correct?
- [35:40]
Fred Katz
I don't know if I got to do one today, but at some point I will.
- [35:45]
Sam Amick
Wow, man, you're messing up my segue. I was just trying to get you out.
- [35:48]
Fred Katz
I mean, I, I was trying to, you know, I was invited at, you know, and I was just trying to get treated the way that I wanted. I was expecting my first. But no, I'm gonna get out of here.
- [36:02]
Sam Amick
You're welcome to stay. We're just going.
- [36:04]
Fred Katz
I'm leaving. No, I'm leaving. I don't appreciate the way I've been treated.
- [36:09]
Sam Amick
Give Eric the rock. His usage rate is too low. All right, man. Thank you for the insight. That was great. Great job in this story. If. If the fans somehow don't know, you got to read Eric all the time on all things Bucks absolutely dominates that beat, not only when it comes to the news and drama like this, but the actual basketball. Just incredible analysis on a consistent basis. Thank you, brother, for joining and we will talk to you soon. All right, gentlemen, I'm gonna play, you know, a little kind of, you know, grab the host. Mike, on your part, what direction you want to go? We go Wizards, commercial break. We're getting the commercial break. I'm saying what's on the other side of it.
- [36:50]
Anthony Slater
Delightful gifts. Stick around and you'll hear about the trade deadline and a few other teams. Maybe even I, maybe I can rope Andrew into two minutes on the Thunder. Maybe if Sam.
- [37:01]
Sam Amick
Yes. Slater loves Thunder. The Thunder, the.
- [37:05]
Eric Naim
The Milwaukee Bucks are 50% of the teams that have made a coaching change in the last.
- [37:11]
Anthony Slater
Oh, yeah, Wizards. We forgot, you know, the tease for.
- [37:14]
Sam Amick
The Thunder is going to be at the end. Well, Thunder fans are.
- [37:17]
Anthony Slater
Are basically like the, the. The, you know, Eastern Conference, like four years ago version of the Thunder is the wizard, so.
- [37:23]
Sam Amick
Indeed. Indeed. All right, we're going to talk Wizards on the other side of the break, then trade deadline chatter, then Thunder. We'll be right back. All right, gentlemen, let's keep it moving here. Fred, in a past life, you covered the Washington Wizards. The Washington Wizards made themselves a choice here on this Thursday Morning I woke up to these tweets and texts and all the above. West on Cell Junior, a couple years in, is now moving to a front office advisory role. You know, we know that, that that team has obviously been floundering. They. They didn't have expectations coming in. And I'm curious to hear how you unpack this because, you know, in. In stark contrast to a Milwaukee buck situation where it's, it's really not hard and complicated to see why there was pressure. This is extremely different, more nuanced, more complicated. What kind of clarity, if any, do you have on why they made this choice?
- [38:25]
Eric Naim
I thought that this has been inevitable for a long time. And I don't think it's because of the Wizard's record, even though I do think that organization probably thought it would be a little bit better coming into this season than they ended up being. But let's go through the timeline. So sometime over the summer, shortly after last season ends, the Wizards fire Tommy shepherd, who was previously their team president. And they clear out part, though not all of the front office. And along with the news that the Wizards are firing Tommy Shepard, another piece of news comes out as well. Whoever gets hired will not be allowed to pick their new head coach. Wes Ancel Jr. Is staying in as head coach. Now, Ted Leonsis, who is the owner of the Wizards, puts a very large emphasis on local ties, puts a very large emphasis on organizational ties. And while I believe that Wes Ansell Jr. Put in his time as an assistant coach and was ridiculously well respected as an assistant coach, the Wizards were not the first place that he ever got a head coaching interview. When he got that job, everybody raved with him. Part of the reason that Leonis was so sold on him was because of the romanticism of having Wes Unsell Jr. The son of maybe the greatest player in franchise history, the only Finals MVP in franchise history, the only MVP in franchise history, having his son as the coach of the team, especially when Wes Jr. Started off as an advanced scout and then an assistant coach with the Wizards themselves. And I think it's putting everybody involved at a disadvantage when seconds after the news comes out that you're hiring a new lead executive in your front office. And they didn't just hire a newly exec, they brought in Michael Winger and they also brought in Will Dawkins as gm, they brought in Travis Schlank. I think it's putting everybody involved at a disadvantage when it's immediately known before you hire whomever you want. There's no way you're picking your own coach. And at that point, the clock is just going to be ticking on that guy, and it's going to set back your process. I think that's kind of what happened here. Pretty much any front office who comes in is going to want to pick their own coach. And I don't think this was a case of Wes doing some sort of horrific job. I don't think this was a case of something happening with the team that made them say, we have to move on. I mean, I think the team underperformed in terms of the way that they wanted to lose. Like, I think they expected more out of Jordan Poole. I think they expected more discipline playing. I don't think they expected this defense to be as bad as it was. And I think there were elements to wanting to move on from him, but I think this was inevitable. Maybe it wasn't inevitable to happen on Thursday, January 25, but it was inevitable to happen at some point. This is just how these things tend to go. When an owner says, you're not allowed to choose your own head coach until.
- [41:21]
Anthony Slater
You are, by the way, the Will Dawkins in Michael Winger, Oklahoma City Thunder. You know, backgrounds. Brian Keefe, Thunder background. Came in as the assistant where you say, you know, you don't pick your head coach. Well, sometimes you pick your lead assistant coach and the guy who's going to be tapped on the shoulder when the time comes. What, he's there.
- [41:43]
Sam Amick
You immediately announced that he's the guy for the rest of the season.
- [41:46]
Anthony Slater
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:47]
Sam Amick
Which, I mean, he's gonna have a crack at the actual job.
- [41:50]
Anthony Slater
Yeah, clearly. And it's, you know, like, at least part of, you know, you said set back their process. I do think part like they didn't necessarily, because I think part of hiring them was like, you got some time. Right. It was like they're finally doing the full rebuild. I don't think they feel panic. This isn't a panic move. It was the inevitable move. You set that up, you know, in like a correct framing. But yeah. And then the whole. And I think this is, it's good context for you on the whole Western, Southwest, all junior thing, because it wasn't fired. Goodbye. Right. It's. It's stay with the organization, at least for now. So.
- [42:28]
Sam Amick
Indeed.
- [42:28]
Eric Naim
I also, I also Leonis is not necessarily known for. For paying people out to leave as well. That's another part of it, too, which is why you do the transition. Then you bring up, you will be.
- [42:40]
Anthony Slater
Going to the Georgetown game tomorrow to scout college prospects because you Have a paycheck, sir. Exactly like that.
- [42:49]
Sam Amick
Feels a little bit, this is a front office thing, but you know, Larry Riley, back in the day when the warriors were reshifting their front office, you know, you, you guys that you like and respect and especially who have that kind of history, family history with the franchise, optics wise, PR wise with the fans. A wise move, I think, to have Wes, you know, move into that role. All right, good stuff, guys. Isn't it funny though, by the way, just as a quick commentary that you know the difference between high profile reporting and analysis on those teams like the Milwaukee Bucks and then admittedly the way that we, we handle some teams that are, that are just on a different tier. You know what I mean? Like, we're not going to have 3,000 words coming on inside the the west uncell Junior decision.
- [43:31]
Eric Naim
Speak for yourselves.
- [43:35]
Sam Amick
Fair.
- [43:35]
Eric Naim
Speak for your damn self.
- [43:37]
Sam Amick
That'll be Josh Robbins. Go read Josh Robbins.
- [43:41]
Eric Naim
You. Not true.
- [43:42]
Sam Amick
All right, next guy. What do you know about low profile, Mr. Nick's P writer. Get out of here.
- [43:47]
Eric Naim
I, I, can I, can I say one thing?
- [43:49]
Sam Amick
You got time to talk to us, Fred, because you got your own Nick's pod. That also is a reflection of, you know, the high profile team that you cover. You don't, you don't have that life, cats.
- [43:58]
Eric Naim
And shoot. You can subscribe@patreon.com but so I, I am, I just want to say I don't think we have any idea what kind of Coach Wes Untold Jr. Is, what kind of head coach he is. I just, I, I don't think he ever really got an opportunity to coach a real team. They got off to that really hot start a couple of years ago at 10 and 3 and everything fell off. But the culture on that team, from a player's perspective was really off. Like I have heard, like, for example, that year they have Montrez Harrell in their locker room and they, and Harold was good for them on the court. And I am telling you, I can't remember the last time I heard a team so excited to trade somebody away. They were like, the only objective for the trade deadline is you have to trade away Montrose Harold because what's the disorganization that's happening in this locker room associated with him right now. And there's a reason they traded him for Ish Smith, who is like the ultimate beloved locker room leader who had been in that organization twice before and then a third time because they were like, we just need the biggest upgrade there. I don't think that was, that was a. I don't think that was a Westland self. I don't think that was Western Salt's fault. You have the entire Bradley Beal situation hovering over everything. You have Beals injuries hovering over everything. You have a team that's, that's one foot in, one foot out, you know, would constantly chase the eight seed. Now that it's the play in, we'll chase the 10 seed in order to try to make it work. You had them miss on draft picks. I mean, that Johnny Davis pick is, is one of the. Looking like one of the most disappointing lottery picks of. In recent history in terms of the fact that like, he's just not even getting a chance to see the. See the court. So like, this was not a good situation for him. And then you get this team, which is not even necessarily a rebuilding team. They're in like the pre rebuild. They're in the pre build right where like they're, they're. They've got these guys who like, aren't necessarily going to be part of the future other than maybe a Corey Kispert or a Denny Abdia. You've got these guys who aren't going to be part of their future, but are just kind of like there in the meantime. You know, Marvin Bagley, who's just there in the meantime. And, and it's just this conglomeration of players that is really difficult to mesh together. I, I have no idea what kind of head coach got out.
- [46:34]
Sam Amick
Yeah, he got out cleaner than Adrian Griffin is. Is a way that I would put, you know, Adrian had the optics and the stuff that went on. I think it's going to be, you know, hard for him to get another head coaching job. And Wes didn't, you know, come out battered and bruised like that. Also Slater, how I kind of challenged Fred like that we weren't unpacking enough and then he just dove right. I'm sorry, Fred. I'm sorry. Good job. Now relax. We're moving on to the trade deadline. Nobody cares anymore about the Wizards. Just being honest, I don't have. So here's my $0.02 on the trade deadline and then we're going to get to the OKC segment. You know, we, we're doing this carousel thing of all the same names kind of going around in a circle, all the same teams tied to those names, waiting to see how things unfold. Obviously, Terry Rozier goes from Charlotte to Miami. That's an impact move that I think is going to help them and makes them dangerous, you know, more so than before. I like that move this week. And I didn't come out, admittedly, with. With any, you know, hardcore intel on this story or clarity, but I. I was around the Hawks for two games. They were in Sacramento. They were in San Francisco last night. You know, Dejounte Murray, for one. It's just fascinating to see his vibe with the team. He's widely known to be just a super mature, professional guy. And so before the Kings game, he comes off the court from his pregame warmup. Hawks GM Landry Fields is. He and I are actually talking. And so he's standing in dejante's way as he's going through the tunnel, and dejounte comes behind him. And in my experience, guys who are, you know, whose names are out there, who are widely known to be probably on the move, like, the. The vibe gets a little uncomfortable with their team. It gets a little weird. But not dejante. He comes behind Landry and like, literally grabs him by the shoulders and is damn near giving him a massage, saying hello, and then kind of looks him in the eye and says, let's get a W. And it really struck me and. And if nothing else clarified, the fact that, like, this is a. This is a very healthy communication between dejante and the Hawks. I think it's a very clear objective that both parties are all in on, which is. I think dejante is ready to go, and I think the Hawks are trying to find the move that works for them.
- [48:58]
Anthony Slater
I was gonna say after he told Landry, let's go out and get that W. They proceeded to go out and lose by, like, 20 to drop to 26.
- [49:06]
Sam Amick
Right. I mean, they have no Trey Young. He. He. He is in concussion protocol, and it was ugly. And I don't know. There's. So there's a lot of scouts at these Hawks games, which makes sense. But also there, quick.
- [49:20]
Anthony Slater
Yeah, yeah, they're the ten seed. The east. Bottom of that east is so bad that they're like, you know, they're in. They're in the Wizard's dream spot according to Fred Katz, but not. That should not change their trade deadline direction, but, you know, it should not.
- [49:35]
Sam Amick
No, and I don't think it will. I, I still, you know, the noise about dejante to the Lakers continues to be louder than. Than any other possible landing spot with. But with. With hurdles. Right. Like, you know, it's clear the Hawks don't have interest in D'Angelo Russell. And so then it's a matter of, is there a third team that will take him. There's, you know, there's some chatter that the Lakers have explored the idea of getting off of D'Angelo now for an expiring to, like, you know, remove that obstacle. But if you, you know, if you have a team that is saying, well, that's fine, we'll give you the expiring, but you got to give us a pick, too. Well, that defeats the purpose, because you can't lose those assets that you need to then turn and get dejante out of Atlanta. So I don't know how it's going to finish, but, you know, I also. There's this, like, sense of inevitability that dejante is going to eventually have a Lakers jersey on.
- [50:32]
Eric Naim
I'm also really curious to see how. Because the Hawks is not just Landry Fields anymore. Right. Like, they're bringing Chris Grant now to the front office.
- [50:40]
Sam Amick
Yep.
- [50:41]
Eric Naim
I'm really curious to know how Chris. I mean, he's. He's a. He's a veteran exec. He's run teams, used to run the Cavs. He's a Spurs guy. Landry was a Spurs guy. I. I'm. I'm really curious to know. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm really curious to know how that's going to change their approach to everything. Because the. The reality of the situation is it's not like Dejounte Murray is an upcoming free agent. It's not like he's even a free agent in 2025. He just extended. And the Hawks don't necessarily have to trade him right now. Like, it's not like, oh, no, if we don't trade him right now, then all of a sudden his value is going to plummet because there's not enough time left on his contract this summer. I feel like there's a world where if the offers come in too slim, where they wait until the summer when it's easier to make trades because teams have cap room and extra draft picks open up and all that kind of stuff. I just. I would be surprised. From what I am hearing about how the Hawks are negotiating, I would be surprised if they just took whatever the best offer was on February 8th, no matter what. You know what I mean? Like, I. I think if there isn't an offer up to their standards, I could see them. I could see them making other moves, but I could see them holding on to him into the summer and then revisiting this in the summer. Like, Sam, do you same. We're giving me a look like you.
- [51:57]
Sam Amick
Maybe disagree Well, I think there's. I don't have total clarity, so full disclosure. But I think, you know, Dejante being a clutch sports client, I think there's a fair amount. It feels like there's pressure. You know, I don't know that the, the chummy vibe is there before that Kings game. If, if this is going to be his basketball existence for the next, you know, for the remainder of the season. By the way, I also think. Sorry, real briefly, I think culturally it is what it is. You can agree, disagree. They continue to lean into the Trey Young experience. And if I was in their shoes, I think on the ownership side, you got to get back to finding a way to let him cook and at least entertain fans in that kind of like non actually title contending way. But that does put butts in seats and have a little more fun in the building instead of. They were. They're not a fun group right now. They. The dynamic internally is clearly like purgatory as they wait to see what's going to happen here.
- [53:02]
Anthony Slater
I also think the money incentive is something to monitor within this too. Where you're right, you could take it to the off season. But. But I think part of the appeal now is if you get expirings now, you get off the money and you know, the, the hope would be expiring with assets, particularly draft assets. Yeah.
- [53:20]
Sam Amick
Well, the other thing that never definitely doesn't.
- [53:22]
Eric Naim
Which is why I say if it's not him, I wouldn't be surprised if there were other Hawks moves.
- [53:28]
Sam Amick
Yeah, for sure. Like, you know, since I was at that Kings game, you know, they were tied to Clint Capella years ago and I was looking at that going, damn, he would, he would actually help them right now. So who knows? And I'm not hearing that. But you know, Capella now the one thing obviously they're very excited about Jalen Johnson, that that's something they got going for them. A pick that Landry and I think Landry was working under Travis Schlank when that pick was made. That pick is paying off. So they're trying to pivot. They have some stuff that they like. But yeah, you know, I agree there's other guys on that team too. DeAndre Hunter that could be on the way up.
- [54:04]
Eric Naim
DeAndre Hunter is kind of the new John Collins.
- [54:06]
Sam Amick
Yeah.
- [54:07]
Eric Naim
Feel like, feel like everyone who, who calls about. I feel like I could call about DeAndre Hunter and they'd be like, oh, yeah, you want to back up Nick's B writer? Let's talk. Let's See if we can match salaries. Like they. I feel like anyone can call about DeAndre and that's another way to get off salary because he's got. He's got four more years left, including this one. He makes like 20 mil this year. So that's another way to get. Get off of salary. I'm curious to see, like, I don't know. Sam, what do you know about Bogdan Bogdanovich? Because. Because he's on. He's having a really good year. He's a really nice player. He doesn't need the ball. He fits in a lot of places on decelerating contract. It's like a really nice number. He's making 18.7 this year, goes down to 17.3 after that and 16 after that. Like today's cap environment. That's a really good contract for that quality of players that. What. What, what are you hearing around. Around him? Because I feel like you can get something for that.
- [55:00]
Sam Amick
Yeah, I would agree, but it feels like he's a guy that they still see as part of their program. I don't know if they just don't want to.
- [55:07]
Anthony Slater
He's. He's pretty connected with like their, their leadership there, it seems.
- [55:12]
Sam Amick
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I agree that you could get something there and maybe you're. You're just rightfully so concerned about lowering the floor of the group. You know what I mean? They're not looking. This is not a market or a franchise that is interested in bottoming out when so long as you have Trey Young. And I even talked to some of their people about how the fans were handling this particular era and they, they were pleasantly surprised that, you know, I don't know the numbers, but like attendance has been okay. It's not, it's not, you know, the.
- [55:43]
Anthony Slater
Optimum fans are still showing up to have a really good time. They're not that they're, you know, kind of apathetic at like, you know, this isn't going well, but it's like they're not booing them. It's not like, you know, it's more like, hey, let's go have this fun time tonight and then watch Georgia football game and watch the. The Falcons game and Braves coming up. Spring training's coming.
- [56:03]
Eric Naim
One thing I'll credit the Hawks with is they have a really good in arena experience. They.
- [56:07]
Anthony Slater
I.
- [56:08]
Eric Naim
They have a great arena. It's really nice. They. They have. They have fun.
- [56:13]
Anthony Slater
The games there are fun big boards during.
- [56:15]
Eric Naim
During the. During the stoppages. That's a. That's a good in arena experience.
- [56:21]
Sam Amick
I still haven't been there since the renovation, which I think was like 2018, something like that. Fred, have you, have you ever gotten a cut at the arena? They have a barber famously in arena that you can. I think it, I heard it's a little pricey. I forget the exact price.
- [56:35]
Anthony Slater
Go in there. I think in about 10 days. Oh, let's get a hot haircut. So maybe we'll, maybe I'll do a segment for you that week and you.
- [56:45]
Sam Amick
Could, I mean, you know, you could expense it. That's work, right? You know what I mean?
- [56:50]
Anthony Slater
You get off.
- [56:51]
Eric Naim
If you, if you do a story on getting your haircut at the arena, you could definitely expense.
- [56:55]
Sam Amick
I may or may not have expensed a haircut when I was covering the, the NBA bubble in Orlando. That happened when I, when I had one over the course of six weeks. All right, guys, let's get to the most exciting part of the program. It's now becoming a weekly thing. A weekly.
- [57:12]
Anthony Slater
By the way, it probably.
- [57:13]
Sam Amick
Relax. I'm trying to make this something Slater. I'm trying to build.
- [57:18]
Anthony Slater
Okay, go, go. Sorry, sorry.
- [57:20]
Sam Amick
Foundation. You know, Oklahoma City is a wonderful place. Their program with Sam Presti leading the way has quickly pivoted from, you know, the Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook era to rebuilding to holy smokes, they, they look like a squad that could make an impact. And lo and behold, the Athletic has not one, but two guys who used to cover the Thunder in a daily capacity. Slater these days is, I mean, wearing a lot of baseball caps on that, that head of hair that he has, you know, Warriors, Kings, Thunder, and, and we're getting back to okc. What, what do you need to share this week on the Thunder beat?
- [57:58]
Anthony Slater
Oh, well, first of all, they've leaped into first place this week. You know, they're 31, 13, four game win streak. Beat the Timberwolves this past weekend in Minnesota. I just wrote about their defense this week. I mean, their top five defense, like, you know, it's, we've kind of nibbled around this conversation and in some ways it's, it's part of a trade deadline conversation of like, you know, should they go for it? I know that's been kind of a hot topic, but they just profile as a title contender for many reasons, but including like they are a top five defense. They're a very young team that defends, gets stops and it doesn't seem like it's like, you know, smoke and mirrors type stuff. It's like their best players are Great defenders. Shay Gilders Alexander has 98 steals this season. The next closest guy in the Entire League is 64, I believe is the number. Chad Holmgren. He's third in the. As a rookie, they have a rookie center anchoring their defense. He has 114 blocks. And it's not just the blocks. It's the rim protection. It's the rim deterrence. I watched, like, pretty much all his box this season, which, by the way, like, name a star in the league. He's already blocked a shot halfway half a season into his career. It's like an unbelievable, you know, like, set of film if you just watched the, the way, you know, he gets some of these blocks, the motor on them. So I just, I was gonna bring Andrew in. He's welcome to come in and chat a little bit more about it, but I, mostly, I'm being shameless. I just wanted to plug the story I put up. I, you know, talk to, talk to Mark Dagold about it. Talk to, chat and, you know, just how they're doing this. And it's beyond those two, which, by the way, it is very good if your two best, you know, most important players look like really good defenders who want to, you know, play both ways. But also, Jaylen Williams is, is having a star rise really, this month. He can defend well, 72 wingspan. Lou Dord is their stopper, and they're just kind of loaded with guys who, who take that end serious and that. You know, as we talk about joking about having a weekly segment, I mean, like, to me, more and more they're looking like, oh, like we legitimately might be talking about this team, like, deep into May.
- [59:58]
Eric Naim
They also have a lot of really switchable competitive guys like, like, even, like Aaron Wiggins. I was, I was just blowing up Andrew's phone last night, texting him about Aaron Wiggins being like, am I crazy, or is Aaron Wiggins like, a lot better than a 10th man? Just, he hits his threes when he's out there. He competes on defense, he's long, he guards hard. He's a smart team defender.
- [60:20]
Anthony Slater
Been the better Wiggins in the league this year.
- [60:24]
Eric Naim
Well, I, I didn't want to throw a hot take out there, but that was what I text to the group chat. I, I said, which Wiggins are you taking? You have to win a game tonight.
- [60:35]
Anthony Slater
I, I, there's an answer for that. The 2022 playoffs. You're taking the other one, but tonight I know who you're taking.
- [60:41]
Eric Naim
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I, I, okay, so Andrew just popped on the screen and I need to ask him something because Sam doesn't want to talk about small stuff like the Washington Wizards. So, so I'm going to ask about the, the stars, the huge names, the guy that's such a big name that we need to hyphen. Such a, such a big name. We need to hyphenate the name Gilgis Alexander. I, I, I feel like one of the, the biggest subtle developments in the league this year is everybody talks about Shay's offense and it's not that he was some horrific defender before, but he's at a whole other level defensively. And Slater, you notice it, you mentioned it with the steals and that kind of stuff off the ball. He has just been really spectacular in terms of similarly to kind of how he uses his body on offense. He's kind of using that slitteriness to get into passing lanes. He's not really gambling. He's to making these incredible team basketball decisions and rotating fast and so well, I mean, Andrew, what's, what's your perspective of Shay's defense and kind of where it used to be to where, how it's arrived at this like unbelievably high level for anyone, let alone for a guy who has to take on his offensive load.
- [61:58]
Unknown Speaker 3
Yeah, he's just like completely locked in. I've asked him about this a few times and part of the answer that he always gives me is that he, he watches a lot of basketball and he's like night in, night out, Thunder are playing like he's, he's watching. And you have to, one, he's locked in. Two, then you give credit to his teammates on the other side because like Lou Dort's guarding the best player on the other team, Jalen Williams usually guarding the best, like forward. And then obviously you have Chet there. And so it allows him to usually defend guys that aren't doing a whole lot offensively and he goes for steals. He's number one in the NBA in steals by like a mile. I think he has 98 right now. The guy who's second in the league in total steals is Matisse tybal, who has 30 less than him. So it's so it's like this giant margin with what he's doing. And I think some of it is just his competitive nature too. I think that he just wants to get this team out in transition all the time. He actually, he knows that the goal of this team, the way the Thunder are successful is they play fast and they get turnovers and that's how you can get away with playing small and losing the rebounding battle night after night after night. And people are going to point to that, oh, they need a big, they need to do this, they need to do that. But the reason, part of the reason that this is working so well, the offense and the defense is great, is they turn teams over a lot. And Shea on the other side of it, he's getting all these steals. He just doesn't turn the ball over. I think he's had three is the most turnovers he's had since like October. I mean, he just doesn't turn the ball over. And so it's like a combination of those two things that like help this Thunder team be efficient on both ends. But defensively I agree he's, he's completely locked in and understands what his role is within the defense.
- [63:51]
Anthony Slater
Dagnal made an interesting point when I was talking to him about and you know, I'd like the Thunder love to reference the last few years, right. This isn't just like, hey, we arrived this season. It's like so much of what they did the last few years was, was informative and helpful and he made the point that actually the season he was an assistant, it was Billy Donovan's last year, the Chris Paul season, because they had Chris Paul. Dennis Schroeder, like Shea was basically their three. And he was like, Shay wasn't only the three, but Danilo Gallinari was the four. So Shea was like the wing stopper on that team and you know, completely different role than he currently has. But he's like, yeah, I think that really helped. Like, you know, when you talk about his defensive growth, like there was a time in his career where he was our, our small forward who like, hey, go, you know, guard LeBron, even though you're a second year type player and like, you know, again, like they love to be like, you know, that matters. That matters today. The fact that he did that, that but good. I promo my skill. I'm good. I got to get out of here later. They can't beat the Kings, you know.
- [64:47]
Sam Amick
They'Re owing to against the Kings. I'm not going to believe it till they beat the Sacramento King.
- [64:50]
Anthony Slater
I'm not going to believe in the King. So they beat the Pelicans either. Everyone got their kryptonite, right?
- [64:55]
Sam Amick
They do. Bucks need to beat the Pacers. Who's the Warriors Kryptonite?
- [65:00]
Anthony Slater
The league right now in general themselves.
- [65:04]
Sam Amick
All right, Slater, gotta go. He had a late night last night. I will, I think probably the warriors tonight.
- [65:12]
Anthony Slater
I gotta get.
- [65:13]
Sam Amick
I'm a gametime decision. I might be joining you this evening if I can make that drive again. Appreciate you guys. That was good stuff, Fred. Don't worry. We'll. We'll have a weekly wizard segment for you every single time out. I know you want to get in the weeds. You miss your old job, don't you?
- [65:29]
Eric Naim
Of course I do, Andrew.
- [65:31]
Sam Amick
Thank you, buddy. Thanks for jumping on.
- [65:33]
Anthony Slater
Yeah.
- [65:34]
Sam Amick
Thanks, fellas. Thanks, everybody. Talk to you next week.
- [65:37]
Anthony Slater
Later.
- [65:39]
Eric Naim
Foreign.
- [65:44]
Sam Amick
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- [66:10]
Andrew Schlecht
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- [67:03]
Sam Amick
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- [67:07]
Anthony Slater
Here's the show that we recommend.
- [67:11]
Sam Amick
Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige Desorbo. I'm Hannah Berner. Welcome to the squad. Giggly Squad started on Summer House when.
- [67:22]
Anthony Slater
We were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [67:24]
Sam Amick
But of course, we can't be managed. So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games. And guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on ACAST or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.