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- [00:01]
Jared Weiss
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- [01:14]
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- [01:45]
Mike Vorkanoff
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- [03:17]
Jared Weiss
Welcome to the Basketball 100 podcast. I am Jared Weiss. This is a podcast that is based on the book written by many of us here at the Athletic. I've got a few of them with me here today. I'm joined by Mike Vorkanov, our MBA writer. How you doing, Mike?
- [03:32]
Tony Jones
Hey, Jared.
- [03:33]
Jared Weiss
And then Tony Jones, who probably can beat all the people we're about to talk about one on one.
- [03:39]
Mike Vorkanoff
Not with my current hamstring situation.
- [03:42]
Jared Weiss
Okay, we're going to get loose. We'll stretch out our hammies. We're here to count down the top 100 players in NBA history. That's what the book did. Got it just out of frame, but it's just out of reach, so I'll have to grab it later and show you guys. Hopefully you have one in your hands and you're stroking it like a little kitty as you're listening to this podcast. You're like, the only thing this book was missing was a complimentary pod. But we're going to deliver it to you right now and we're going to discuss kind of where everybody's place in history is. You know, we all had a little bit of disagreement over where every single person should be placed. That's how it works when you have a big panel. So we're going to get into the numbers 180 in today's episode. So we'll list them off here. My task for Mike and Tony is I want you guys to just say something, whether it's some sort of grunt or exacerbated emotional response or if you got like a whole diatribe you want to go on, just interrupt me at any point here just so it's not super boring. But we're going to start with number 100, Draymond Green. Big man for the Golden State Warriors. I think everyone listening to this pod is pretty familiar with him. Number 99, Jimmy Butler, who also plays for the Warriors. A quick question. What team do I label him as when we discuss him here? Like, the whole, like, hall of Fame. What jersey is he wearing? Like, does anybody have, like, a strong take on which team we should affiliate him with?
- [05:04]
Tony Jones
Yeah, I think it's got to be Big Face coffee.
- [05:06]
Jared Weiss
Yeah, I still.
- [05:10]
Mike Vorkanoff
I'm still with the Chicago Bulls.
- [05:12]
Jared Weiss
Really? That's not what I expected. Okay, why. Why Bulls?
- [05:17]
Mike Vorkanoff
That's the. That's the team that he, like, really broke in with. And, you know, and. And, you know, everything else. He's just been kind of a, you know, as good as he is, as good a player as he is has been, he's just been kind of a basketball vagabond ever since Chicago. So, you know, I'm just going to go with. With the team that. That. That he kind of broke in with.
- [05:43]
Tony Jones
Okay.
- [05:43]
Jared Weiss
I mean, obviously, it's Miami. I was just asking just so I could disagree with you. All right. 98 was Dave Bingley. 97, Dave DeBusscher. 96, Lenny Wilkins. And that's as a player, not as the coach, which I feel like people in our lifetime probably associate him with the coach more than the player, but he also was a pretty good player. Number 95 was Sidney Moncrief. What we'll get into a little bit later. 94, Artis Gilmore, the giant. Number 93 is Bill Sharman, the original Celtics legend. 92, Bernard King, one of the OG legends around Mike's way. 91, Jason Tatum. So he is one of several people that's currently injured that we'll be talking about as we go through these podcasts here on this list. Number 90, Nate Thurman. Number 89, Paul Arzen.
- [06:35]
Tony Jones
88.
- [06:36]
Jared Weiss
Dennis Johnson. 87, Tony Parker. 86, Chris Bosh. 85, Vince Carter. 84, Grant Hill. 83, Spencer Haywood. 82, Manu Ginobili. 81, Pete Maravich. And I'm sure this won't be controversial. 80 is Kyrie Irving. So I guess first things first. Michael, start with you. Who brought you the most joy and excitement? Who got you jumping out of your seat just now? As I was going through that list.
- [07:08]
Tony Jones
It'S kind of funny. It's the player that, from my personal experience watching basketball has probably brought me the most. The most excitement is also the player I think doesn't deserve to be on that list at all, which is Vince Carter. He's 85 on this list. And Vince was amazing, multiple times land dunk champion, great scorer. And yet I don't think he belongs there, and certainly not at 85. And so it's kind of weird to have those two things live as a paradox in my head.
- [07:37]
Jared Weiss
Do you think he's a Hall of Famer?
- [07:40]
Tony Jones
I don't know. The NBA hall of Fame or the Basketball hall of Fame is so, like, opaque. And I really don't know who deserves to be a Hall of Famer anymore. It just, none of it makes sense to me, I guess. So probably he had a pretty long career, a pretty, you know, he produced a lot to me, I have a higher bar for the hall of Fame, so he's probably right on the edge if we're going to go. But with some of the people that got in, I mean, I was, yeah, you might as well put him into the hall of Fame.
- [08:08]
Jared Weiss
What about you, Tony?
- [08:10]
Mike Vorkanoff
Well, I, I definitely have a player that elicits strong feelings. But I'm gonna say to Mike, Vince Carter, 100 belongs on this list because now I can say that I played pickup ball with somebody who made this list because back back in 2006 when I was a high school writer in Daytona Beach, Florida, and I was still actually in my prime as a basketball player, Vincent, his crew invited me to a run where, where Vince was playing. So I got to play with and against Vince. I remember that he hit a three pointer from half court left handed. It was not with his strong hand, it was left handed. And that's when I realized that NBA players are different. And I remember I came down and I threw him a lob. And because it was like in the middle of July, it was the off season, and he looked at me and he said, Tony, stop with that bs. Caught the live and laid it up. Did not, did not dunk it because he didn't want to jump because it was the off season. But that's the end of there. Now the person who elicits strong feeling for me and this is going to come with a hot take is Grant Hill, who made number 84 on this list. And, you know, this is, you know, probably killing two birds, one stones because he's probably the, the injury guy other than Penny Hardaway, who has the, the biggest what if for me. But he also, to me, he was LeBron before LeBron. He was LeBron just without the amazing body. And if he stays healthy, he's one of the best 10 players to ever play basketball.
- [09:58]
Jared Weiss
Wow. Okay, so we were going to try to get to this if we had time at the end, we might as well hit on this now. But one of the questions I was going to ask you guys is if Grant Williams, or, sorry, Grant Hill. Grant Williams probably wouldn't make this list. He also didn't get hurt. Grant Hill, if he never got hurt, where would he end up? I was trying to debate, like, should I say top 30 or top 20? But why do you say top 10?
- [10:21]
Mike Vorkanoff
Top 10. You gotta think he was essentially 25. 8 and 7. 25 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists for about three or four years straight. First to second team, all NBA, three or four years straight. This is before the injuries. Before the injuries started. And he was, you know, I think when he peaks around 98, 99, I mean, you. You can make a real argument with him that he was, for him, that he was one of the top five or so players in basketball. So, you know, he got hurt. He got hurt going into his prime. And I believe that if he played his prime years, 2000, if he was healthy 2001, 2002, 2003, we're looking at Shaquille O'. Neal. We're looking at Shaquille O', Neal, Grant Hill and Tim Duncan as your three, the three best players in the league during that time. And, you know, obviously, if he matriculated to Orlando, we're looking at. We're looking at a different storyline for them for the Orlando Magic than, you know, the one that they turned out with, with just Tracy McGrady.
- [11:40]
Jared Weiss
I mean, TMac averaged what, like 27 a game in that first year when Grant got hurt? I mean, you had the two of them together. Tmax legacy would probably look different because they probably would have been very successful in the postseason.
- [11:52]
Mike Vorkanoff
So, you know, the first round.
- [11:55]
Jared Weiss
Exactly, exactly. I mean, for me, my favorite Manu Ginobili is my favorite player ever. I like, back during the. I think it was during COVID we did a series where we all had to write, like, who's our favorite player and why? And I went with him just because he was kind of like the epitome of grace combined with rugged competitiveness and so much of his style, along with, like, Dwyane Wade around the same time, really ushered in the modern era of how the game is played now. So I really loved Manu at the time because he was so pioneering in the way that he kind of blended being a playmaking guard and a scoring wing and utilizing Eurocepts and things of that nature. So he was probably the one I got the most excited about. But also we have to mention Pete Maravich, who, like, it's just hard to fathom how creative he was and like the things that he did on the court. So regularly we see a lot of other players try to do stuff like that and they kind of look foolish. And he just did it on a nightly basis in a pretty incredible way.
- [12:58]
Mike Vorkanoff
44 points per game without a 3 point shot in the game seems legitimately impossible at this point. So, you know, the, the fact that Pete Maravich was able to do that and shout out to Press Marovich, his father, who let him shoot enough to average 44 points per game. So it was definitely, it's definitely something that, that definitely makes me excited as well.
- [13:33]
Tony Jones
Yeah, I mean, listen, Pistol Pete back in the day, I think if he had been around today, there'd be so many like mixtapes and tick tock reels about him. He'd probably be the breakout star of this generation. I do want to say, Tony, just about Vince Carter, you and him, you both made the same amount of NBA first teams. All NBA first teams. So I think I got you at 86 on this list.
- [13:58]
Mike Vorkanoff
I think. Listen, I can tell you this, and I, I forgot about this, but I actually remember this well. I was working at the Daytona Beach News Journal at the time and they. Some. My bosses somehow got wind that, you know, I was playing in a basketball run with Vince Carter, who, you know, Vince Carter in Daytona is like, you know, just a God there because, you know, he led Mainland High School to couple state titles. I mean, he was just, you know, he's just everything there. So my bosses got wind that one of their reporters was playing basketball when Vince Carter and actually made me write a column about it. Like it was.
- [14:42]
Tony Jones
It was.
- [14:43]
Jared Weiss
He made you write a column about it?
- [14:45]
Mike Vorkanoff
Dave Mark, Shout out Dave Markowitz, my, my, my sports editor at the time. I love you very much. He said, well, Tony, you know, you just, you gotta write about this. Like, you know, we, we need something about this. So there's a column from Tony Jones at the Daytona Beach News Journal. If you Google it, I think it'll show up about me playing. Playing a pickup game with Vince Carter.
- [15:14]
Tony Jones
We will get to the bottom of this.
- [15:17]
Jared Weiss
I feel like the next episode of the pod should just be Tony reading that article aloud.
- [15:21]
Mike Vorkanoff
So.
- [15:21]
Jared Weiss
But I don't know if we have. So, so what we're going to do now is, you know, we. I read off those 20 names, I think. Or might have been 21. Right. But I read off those names earlier. You probably knew most of them. If you're listening to this podcast, you probably maybe have heard of a few. And those guys, you probably have no idea what their games are like or you like heard maybe one thing about it. So we kind of split a few of those guys up and we took it upon ourselves to come up with 60 second explainer that will be somewhat interesting and mostly just illuminating. And so I'm going to kind of work backwards from the top of the list. You know Draymond's game, you know Jimmy Butler's game. Dave Bing. Mike, tell me more about what it was like to watch Dave Bing play.
- [16:05]
Tony Jones
Well, as I perused through a bunch of YouTube videos about Dave Bing, it's really cool actually. He had a pretty interesting career. First of all, the guy came in right out of college average 27 points in the second season, right? First team All NBA, which is audacious in and of itself. He was a really smooth kind of like scoring point guard who could get to the rim. He was a good rebounder, you know, at his prime he was averaging, you know, mid-20s points per game, seven assists per game. So you could do a little bit of both. And just watching him play, I was trying to think of some guys in today's NBA you could compare them to. And so I was thinking somewhere, you know, it's a different time obviously, but maybe someone who gets to the rim a lot, like a Donovan Mitchell, right? There was no three point shot, so we, we don't have kind of like a perfect analogy, but he was something like that and he had a great career despite as a five year old, from what I read, really messing up, having a very serious eye injury and having his, I think it was his left eye be fuzzy for the rest of his life. So to be that good of a shooter, to be that good of a player for the rest of his life and his career despite a very serious eye injury really says something. And I, I think that he would have actually translated really well to today's NBA because of his size, because of scoring ability, his ability to set up others. And if you watch and you go down the YouTube rabbit hole, he's kind of a really fun watch in retrospective just because the way that he played.
- [17:34]
Jared Weiss
All right, okay, next on the list, also one of your guys, David Buscher. Tell me more.
- [17:38]
Tony Jones
All right, I'm going to read, I was, I was thinking whether to describe this, but I'm just going to read straight from Bill Bradley's New York Times op ed on the day that the Knicks retired Dave debush's jersey Right. When we played together, debusscher was the best defensive forward in basketball. There is always physical contact between him and the man he was guarding, resting his forearm on his opponent's chest or waist. He rarely got screened. Sometimes pushing his man in order to get past the screen and not switch and not to switch. And he said going later that guys would rather just take hard shots and try to take on the busher and get easier shots. I think that kind of explains it all. You know, he's part of those legendary 1970s Knicks teams, which live on in New York City, is still the last champions that the franchise has produced. And those teams had so much talent on them. Obviously Bradley was one of them. Willis Reed, the captain, Wal Clyde Frazier, Owen Rowe, you know, were the highlights there. But DeBusher really kind of stands out to Knicks fans of that era and I think to his teammates too for the way that he played. He was hard, obviously he was a physical player. He was kind of the defensive linchpin of that team. Even with a lot of other talented defenders there, he had good size. And I think a really another, I think my favorite actual Dave debusher fact, if we're going to say this, is that in 1963 he threw complete game shutout as a pitcher, major league baseball, and then three months later was playing for the Pistons in the NBA, which kind of just tells you about how athletic and versatile it was.
- [19:12]
Jared Weiss
Wow, I actually had no idea about that. That's actually pretty wild. Okay, so next up on the list in 96 is Lenny Wilkins, is one of my guys. So Wilkins, again, we knew him, most people, I think, know him as a coach. And he, you know, he was, I think it was the winningest coach right when he, when he retired. And you know, since then guys have passed him, but he was, he was one of like the original great playmaking guards. So, you know, built like Bob Cousy with the Celtics. He was the guy that was known as the great flashy playmaker and you know, kind of the first great point guard. But you know, Wilkins, he. He was a little bit more of a floor general than like a flashy passer kind of type, which obviously Cousy did. But you know, his job when he got to the league was he was trying to be kind of like the overall floor general. And he made a bunch of all star games early on. And then it was really later in his career with, later with St. Louis and then eventually with Seattle where he started to really up his assist for games until like the 8 to 9 range. And he led the league in 1970 with 9.1. And that was obviously a pretty massive number. What's so fascinating about him is that he only had his left hand and he had a really slow set shot back then. You know, guys back in those days, they took these really, really slow set shots. They would kind of like stand there and they'd get their elbow under and they'd shoot with one hand. And at the time, I guess it was hard to guard. I don't know why it was hard to guard, but I guess it was. And so he was so smart about using that as an up fake. And you read all these interviews from guys that went against him and, and they were like, he's such a pain in the ass. Because every single time I would just sit on his left hand where he have to go to his right hand, which he couldn't do, he would somehow find a way to slip past me and get to the rim or, you know, find a dime. And so he, he was just like, you know, we've seen a few of those players over the years where you know which way they're going and you just. They somehow always get to it. And I think that's what kind of made him so interesting early on. And then the other thing about him was he was a great defender. He was like one of the first great defensive guards. There goes my. He once told this great story about how when he was a rookie, he stole the ball from Bob Cousy, who was MVP at that point and was kind of one of the icons of the league. And very obvious steal even a baby wouldn't have noticed. They got picked up and the ref calls a foul and he goes, what the hell? That was a clean steal. That was obvious. And the ref goes, you're not allowed to take the ball from Bob Cousy. And so that's what the league was like back then. And he had to become a great defender through that. And so I always thought that was like a fun story and kind of a way to kind of capture what kind of league he was walking into and how he made his mark on the league. And then obviously he ended up becoming a player coach and then eventually one of the longest serving coaches in the league. And he eventually won a title with the Sonics in 79. And the guy that led that team, I'm skip ahead here, just because it's a natural segue. Tony, tell me about Dennis Johnson, who was the best player on that. On that team back in 79.
- [22:28]
Mike Vorkanoff
Dennis Johnson was unique in, as a guy who peaked very early in his career as an MVP level player and then kind of had to subjugate his offense when he went to those stack Celtics teams. So if you remember those Celtics teams, you know, 84, 85, 86, I think the 86 Celtics, to me, for my, for my money, are the second best team ever to. In fact, I think it's the best team ever to play. Even better than the 2017 Warriors. That team was 41 at home, went on to dominate everybody. They beat that Houston Rockets team, I believe, in five or six games. I think it was six games, you know, and Dennis Johnson was, you know, he, he was one of the best, you know, point of attack guards in the league, but he was also on the offensive end. He was one of the first real connectors that we saw, you know, and connector is, you know, somebody who, you know, kind of connects the stars to, to the role players. You know, he could play, you know, point guard, he could play shooting guard, he could take over offensively if you needed to, you know, and there were times, you know, when Larry bird or Kevin McHale or Robert Parish, you know, struggle with their matchups and Dennis Johnson stepped up and made, and made big shots. His NBA comp today for me is Andrew Nemhardt. And you know, Andrew Nemhardt, you know, somebody who real connector on that, you know, on that Indiana team that, that went seven games with the Oklahoma City Thunder in, in the finals, plays both ends of the floor, you know, played a lot of shooting guard, but also could play point guard and run the team for you. And that was Dennis Johnson. I think the difference is that Dennis Johnson, you know, peaked as an all star and all NBA, all NBA level team. I mean all NBA level player. You know, that 79, you know, 80 to around 82 to. When he got to the Celtics, you know, he was, he, he was one of the best players, one of the best guards certainly in the Western Conference, but also in the league as well. So, you know, he's, he was somebody who could score from three levels, but he would really, really, really get into you defensively. You know, him and Joe Dumars, once the Pistons started kind of rising, had a lot of battles as well. Him and Isaiah Thomas had a lot of battles as well. He's definitely one of the more underrated guys that, that, that we had in our game in, in the 1980s.
- [25:18]
Jared Weiss
All right, we'll get back to the list. Now Speaking of the 80s, number 95 was Sidney Moncrief. I'll talk more about him. He played for the Bucks in early to mid-80s. He was, I guess you would call him a combo guard. He was kind of the two. He was kind of the one. The main thing he was was he was the guy that won the first Dpowise. He was the great defensive guard of that 80s generation. And he was also an electric attacker at the rim. Like he was just so fast, athletic, daring, going to the rim. He was a really, really good scorer. He played, you know, alongside Marcus Johnson on some solid Bucs teams. They never quite had postseason success. They were never quite at that level. And you know, Moncrief, his career is kind of maybe tampered down a bit because they both didn't have a lot of postseason success and he had chronic knee and foot injuries. And he right as he was hitting his prime at 28 years old, that's when his injuries was like really kind of tanked his career. And by 31 he was out of the league. So he had a pretty short career, although I guess it wasn't crazy short back then. A lot of guys, their bodies would fall apart by the time they got to 30, but he was, he was really good. Like he was going to be a perennial or he was a perennial all star, but his prime was really kind of condensed down to a five year run where he was top 10 in MVP pretty much every single season. And he was, you know, he's probably the best guard defender in the NBA at that point. And unfortunately he didn't get to have that full arc where it's always interesting to see how these kind of attacking scoring guards that could defend how they have the second half of their career like Gary Payton did, you know, stuff like that. So we didn't get to quite see that from him. But he was really amazing in his early, in his mid-20s. So, you know, it's early to make this comp, but I was trying to think of who makes sense maybe a men Thompson would be a good comp for this guy who was just such an exciting, athletic defensive hawk who didn't really have a shot, but he was just so unstoppable getting to the basket. And obviously a men is really early in his career, but I mean, look at what he's doing already. I think we're pretty confident he's on track to get to at least Sidney Moncrie's level.
- [27:27]
Mike Vorkanoff
What's interesting about Sydney Moncrie, one of the years that he won Defensive Player of the Year, he also averaged 23 points per game. So you know, in today's era you kind of, you know, you kind of pick one or the other like are you going to be a scorer or are you going to be a defender? Especially for a guard. And the fact that Cindy Moncrief did both in that era, you know, was, was, was pretty remarkable. And you know, I know like you said, you know, I'm in Thompson, it's probably your comp. My comp was probably Drew Holiday in terms of, you know, a two way guard who could be, you know, the best POA defender in the league at the time, but could also go out and get you, get you 20, you know, top end athleticism as well. You know, Olympic Olympian type level of player.
- [28:25]
Jared Weiss
All right then, let's go. Next on this list would be Artis Gilmore. Tony, take it away.
- [28:32]
Mike Vorkanoff
Artist Gilmore for a period of about six or seven years was best rebounder in basketball. You know, he on this list. He's one of the guys who merged an ABA and NBA career. My comp for him is David Robinson. Left handed, seven foot one, extremely athletic. I'm talking about 40 inch verts. You know, remember Artist Gilmore was one of the best NCAA players of his time at the University of Jacksonville. You know, played matriculated to pro basketball at the ABA level, was an MVP level player there. And then, you know, once he got to the, to the NBA, you know, I think he was in, in the middle of his prime year, about two or three prime years. You know what's interesting was that in his age 36 season, after about five or six seasons of kind of falling off, he had an all star season. He had one of those random all star seasons after, you know, way after his prime in you know, a couple of years before, before his retirement. But you know, he, he wasn't quite the scorer that David Robinson was. David Robinson was, was an alpha scorer and Artis Gilmore wasn't quite that level of score, but he was one of the best shot blockers, one of the best rebounders that we have ever seen at the pro basketball level. And you know, he was the first one of those real mega athletes as a center who could really run the floor, who could really run and jump and you know, who can really, who can really, you know, run the floor and beat guards down the floor. To me, out of most who played in that era, he translates to this era a lot translates to this era, you know, really well because he'd be such a lob threat and he'd be, you know, somebody who, you know, has Gravity as a, as, as a real pick and roll player. It would have been interesting to see an Artist Gilmore in today's game.
- [30:48]
Jared Weiss
I mean, we got Wemby, he kind of dominates. I guess he's very different player, but like it's, there's not a lot of guys that you think of that are at least are currently healthy. Maybe, you know, Joel Embiid could dominate at that level.
- [31:03]
Mike Vorkanoff
Yeah, I mean, you know, his superpower was rebounding the ball. I mean they were, you know, you look at his, his career, you know, 15 rebounds a game, 16 rebounds a game, 14 rebounds a game. He had about 10 years of his pro career where he averaged at least double figure rebounds per game. And you know, even as, you know, the rest of his game started to, to kind of deteriorate a little bit, you know, he was still, he was still a great rebounder even through, you know, the time of his career where he wasn't quite as athletic as he was in the prime of his career.
- [31:40]
Jared Weiss
All right, so next on our list is the exact opposite player. It's Bill charman at number 93. So he, he was one of kind of like the two pioneers of the jump shot. He played for the Celtics in the the 50s and the early 60s. I actually in the book wrote the, the piece on him and I'll start with the player stuff before I get to what I wrote. But he, he was the first great free throw shooter. So he shot over 90% from the free throw line. And that wasn't really done back then. And he was part of this, the first great backcourt with Bob Cousy, you know, who was MVP at the time and was the great, you know, kind of invented the role of the point guard really or kind of pioneered the role of the modern point guard. And so Charman was the shooter. He was the guy that would come off of curls, come off of handoffs right out on the break and take jump shots and jump shots just like weren't that common back then. And he was the guy that really pioneered it. Mostly mid range jumpers because you know, they didn't have the three point line way back then. And who knows how, how many points he would have scored if they were taking threes back then. But he, he was both a great shooter and he was one of the best defensive two guards in the NBA. And him being a two way player was such a key part of establishing the culture early on with those Celtics teams. And once they drafted Bill Russell about halfway through his career, they won four of the next Five championships before he retired. So that's part of why he's high on this list is even though he was like a very good player, a perennial all star, he. And he was a pioneer of the jump shot and the free throw. He wasn't necessarily dominating on those teams as much as Cousy and Russell was, but he was their leading scorer a lot of the time. Of course, Tommy Hindson also being in the mix there, so it was hard finding a comp for him, I would say. You know, Bradley Beal to a degree. I think stylistically on offense, defense isn't very good comp. So it's hard to find a kind of free flowing shooting guard that also defended at that level. There was maybe one other guy, but I saved them for someone we're going to get into in a few minutes. I'm curious if you guys can think of anybody off the top of your heads that was like a really good two way, graceful shooting guard that was more of like the 6, 4 movement kind of shooter type. Yeah, nobody has.
- [33:53]
Tony Jones
There's not a lot of those players out there.
- [33:55]
Jared Weiss
Yeah, there's not a lot of them out there. And that's part of it, Part of what made Charmin so good.
- [34:00]
Mike Vorkanoff
My whole brain is like, okay, Bill Charman, Bill Charman, Bill. This is what's going through my brain right now.
- [34:06]
Jared Weiss
All right, so Tony 92 is Bernard King.
- [34:11]
Mike Vorkanoff
Bernard King. Remember when Shaquille O', Neal, like kind of made that rap with, with, with. With Dennis Scott Young, Shaquille o' Neal Young, Dennis Scott. Unfortunately I do remember that with the, the Orlando Magic and in Shaq said with the boom, bing, bing baseline, fade away like Bernard King. So that's what Bernard King was, was, was, was known for, you know, getting you on the baseline, getting you into his torture chamber. Apologies to Kevin McHale and you know, and just, just killing you, just killing defenders. My account for him is Carmelo Anthony. And we're talking about, you know, two guys that, you know, just did not use a lot of dribbles and, you know, a lot of inefficiency to, to score. You know, Bernard King will isolate you 15 to 18ft on the baseline and it was over. He would use one or two dribbles and he was either at the basket or he hit that fake turnaround, fade away. His, his pull up was money. His jumper was money. Before the knee injury, he had a devastating knee injury. But before that knee injury, he was a top end athlete, above the rim athlete. He was only about 6 foot 5, but he had amazingly long arms that allow him to, to, to do things, you know, that are six foot six five guys normally should not do. Like Carmelo Anthony. Bernard King was the NBA's rookie of the year at the prime. And his prime, Bernard King was one of the very best scorers in the league. One story about Bernard King is he almost ended up with the prime Boston Celtics, you know, towards the end of his career and you know, ended up not doing it because, you know, at the end of the day he didn't want to play. He just essentially he didn't want to win a title that easy. You know, he wanted to win a title playing against Larry Bird instead of kind of playing, playing with him. But you know, he was one of the very first real alpha scorers who did it inside of the three point line instead of above the three point line. And he did it from, you know, mainly from the mid range instead of, you know, either close to the basket or either further from the basket. He was, you know, just one of those guys who, you know, once he got rolling offensively, it was hard to shut his water off. And the, the one thing that, you know, showed his will and his grit, he had that, you know, devastating knee injury and ACLs are different 40 years ago than they were now. ACL 40 years ago was essentially a career killer where now, you know, I mean, obviously you still miss nine months, but it's, it's, it's essentially just a blip on your career now. And he came back from the ACL and he had one and one more MVP level season after the ACL injury. But yeah, Bernard King, he was, you know, one of those original scorers who, you know, it was just really difficult to shut his water off if he got going.
- [37:48]
Tony Jones
Yeah, I was going to say I thought it was perfect that they both played for the Knicks because Melo is just, you know, Bernard King, like 30 years later, you know, dropping 60 on Christmas Day and just giving people the business.
- [38:01]
Mike Vorkanoff
For sure, for sure.
- [38:03]
Jared Weiss
All right, well, number 91 was Jason Tatum and we don't need to get into that one. Everyone knows him. 90 and 89, I'm going to go through both of those, I'd say the two original Warriors Legends maybe. So number 90, Nate Thurman's number 89, Paul Arizon. So Thurman, it's funny, so he, when he was drafted to the warriors, was playing next to Will and Kareem Abdul Jabbar later said that Thurman was actually the toughest defender that he ever had to go Against Thurman was this, you know, this massive center. He was the first player to ever have a quadruple double, believe it or not. And he was also the first great player from Akron, Ohio. So, you know, LeBron James really rode on Nate Thurman's coattails, you could say. So he made, he was a seven time All Star, five time All Defense. He actually had a 2020 season in 1968 and he played alongside Rick Barry, but they never won a title when Thurman was there. So he was, he was like one of the great Giant centers back in the 60s. And he just like was overshadowed because, you know, Bill Russell was the best center that era and Will Chamberlain was the, the real Giant that got all the attention of that era. But he was a great player in his own right. But then Paul Arzen was the other, I'd say pioneer of the jump shot along with Bill Charman. But he, he was a, a better downhill scorer and he was one of the absolute best scorers in the NBA. He was arguably the first great wing in the league. So both of those guys came in the league at the beginning of the 50s and Arizona was just immediately scoring like crazy. He won the scoring title for the warriors back when they were in Philadelphia in 52 and 57. He led them to the 1956 title. And he averaged what, he averaged like 29 points per game in that series, in that playoff run, 28.9. So he, he was a phenomenal player. He made multiple first team all NBAs. He actually, in 56 and 57, he finished top three in MVP voting. And so, you know, a lot of these, he also, you know what, in 59 he finished fifth in MVP voting. And I think that's where you're starting to kind of crack the seal or crack the floor, I guess as we're going down this list of like, who were the guys who were like the top, top MVP candidates perennially. And that's where you start with Arizon. So we'll get into underrated and overrated. I think 89. For a guy that was a top MVP candidate for a while there is maybe a little bit low. His whole thing was, it's funny. So he was known as Pitch and Paul and that's because he had this shot, it was kind of a signature shot where he would run across the lane and he would jump up in the air off one foot and he would just kind of have this one handed floater that he would fling at the rim and nobody could touch it. And I Don't know why. Back then guys just like didn't know how to contest floaters for some reason. And what was funny was after he retired, he actually said he hated the nickname because he wanted to be known for being a driver that got to the rim. And so he hated that everybody was calling him Pitch and Paul, which I guess was a good nickname back then. It kind of sucks. So my comp for him was Devin Booker, where it's just this guy that can just kind of gracefully glide through the mid range area, but he could really get to the rim and really dominate the rim as well. So I saved Booker for him instead of Charman because I think Arizon, his ability to get to the rim was just so impressive and was kind of the first great wing driver to be able to pull that off.
- [41:33]
Mike Vorkanoff
So.
- [41:34]
Jared Weiss
All right, down the list. 88, Dennis Johnson. We already tapped into him. 87, Tony Parker. 86 Chris Bosch. 85. Vince Carter. 84. Grant Hill. 83. Mike. Who the hell was Spencer Haywood?
- [41:47]
Tony Jones
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Listen, Spencer Hayward is actually one of the most important players in NBA history. Aside from what he did on the court. Spencer Heywood was, I believe, the very first player to go from high school straight into the pros. And that kind of changed the future of the NBA. We wouldn't, I don't think we would see it repeated again until the 1990s when, you know, Kevin Garnett started a new wave there. But I think Moses Malone also followed in Spencer Haywood's footsteps in that way. But he was also an awesome player. You know, at 20 years old. He came into the ABA as a rookie, averaged 30. And I'm gonna laugh when I say this. 19 and a half rebounds per game. Insane. Playing 45 minutes a night for 84 games during the season. One MVP. Again, this is a 20 year old rookie beating out an in his prime, Rick Barry for the award. Right. I think he averaged like 30. He averaged 37 and 20 in the playoffs that, that season for the Denver Rockets. So he came in as just an absolute dynamo into pro basketball. That would be, you know, the peak of his kind of his career. And it's hard to beat nine, 30 and 19 and a half rebounds per game. But you know, you would have a few more top 10 MVP finishes as he transitioned into the NBA and played with, you know, Seattle SuperSonics. But Hayward, Haywood at his prime was really interesting player. You know, it was six, eight, he's kind of a big four, small five type of player. Obviously an amazing rebounder. Right. He averaged at least 12 rebounds per game for each of his first five NBA seasons. He had a great mid range game that helped him really dominate. Obviously he was very good around the rim too. So as I, you know, as Tony said, like, as we think about players whose games and whose size would allow them to play in the modern NBA, Spencer Haywood to me jumps out as that kind of player who had the size, the skill, the rebounding acumen, the fluidity of movement to be able to play in the NBA and play really well in this modern era of basketball.
- [44:01]
Jared Weiss
Also, I just want to clarify here. It sounds like Mike made a bunch of mistakes there, but he didn't. He did play 84 games in this rookie season. He was only 20 when he won MVP. And he did say Denver Rockets. And before they were the Nuggets, they were the Denver Rockets in the aba. I actually, I had a call with someone yesterday and they mentioned the Denver Rockets. I was like, that doesn't sound right. And I was like, which one they made, the Houston Rocks or Denver Nuggets? And I went back, I'm like, oh yeah, they were the Denver Rockets back then.
- [44:28]
Tony Jones
Little known facts of NBA and ABA history.
- [44:31]
Jared Weiss
I know, okay, 82, Manu Ginobili, he was a wizard. But then 81, Pete Maravich, Mike, he was the Wizard.
- [44:38]
Tony Jones
He was the wizard, you're right. And that's, you know, I feel like we all know a little bit about Pistol Pete and he really was just this dynamic player. Everyone knows that he averaged 44 in college at LSU. Right. He was amazing in the NBA as well. You know, he averaged 24 points for his career. He had a great handle, he was great off the dribble, obviously a great shooter. I would have loved to have seen what he did in the three point era. He didn't take a lot of threes by the time that, you know, the three point line came to the NBA. But a little fun fact about him, he took 15 threes in his career and hit 10 of them. So I mean, you could say the 67% career three point shooter, which is not bad, right? But I think that kind of just speaks to the type of player he was. You know, he's great on the dribble, great score, great passer. I kind of think of him a little bit now as like a Kyrie Irving type of player, right? Smaller guard, great handle, obviously great shooter, extremely shoot first type of profile. And look, I think he's basically one of the best, I wouldn't say like legends in NBA history. Not because of just the type of player that he is, but just in the way that people talk about him.
- [45:50]
Jared Weiss
Right?
- [45:50]
Tony Jones
He is a legend. There's almost a folklore to him and to his style of play.
- [45:55]
Jared Weiss
And fittingly, number 80 is Kyrie Irving.
- [46:07]
Mike Vorkanoff
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- [47:31]
Jared Weiss
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- [50:27]
Mike Vorkanoff
Yeah, for me, you know, I think, you know, 80 sounds right, because here's the thing with Kyrie Irving. We know that he was not a number one because he was in multiple situations where he was the number one, and it just did not go well. So he. He's not a number one, but he might be the best number two of this generation. And, you know, you look at. He was better than a number two, but quite, not quite a number one. Like, not many people, number ones, number twos, number threes or whatever can go on the road into Golden State in a game five in a must win and drop 40. And that's what he and LeBron did in that game five. And LeBron deferred to him in game seven of that series. And, you know, so, I mean, he reached an offensive peak. You know, numbers aside, he reached an offensive peak that very few small guards are, are capable of reaching. And the one thing about Sidney Moncrief that, you know, we didn't talk about was that Sydney Moncrief was the guy that your favorite point guard did not want to face, and that was Jrue Holiday, and that's Kyrie Irving. You know, your favorite point guard doesn't want to see Kyrie Irving on the schedule. You know, there's a lot of headaches and a lot of, and a lot of injuries that come up on the schedule. When Kyrie Irving comes up on the schedule. And he had two superpowers that put him into NBA folklore that, you know, will never be erased. Number one, to me, he has the second best handles in NBA history. The best handles to me are Isaiah Thomas from the Pistons, but Kyrie Irving has the second best handles in NBA history. And the second thing, and Mike, Mike looks like he wants to say something to that. And the second thing is, along with Rod Strickland, who is ironically his godfather, Kyrie Irving is probably the best under the rim finisher that I have ever seen in, in, in basketball history. So, you know, he's a little convoluted because, you know, most of the guys, as you get up this list, most of these guys were, you know, undisputed number one, and Kyrie Irving is an undisputed number two. But he was so good once, you know, when, when he got the right, if you put the right team around him and you get him in the right role, like 2016 with LeBron, in 2024 with, with Luka Doncic, you know, he can be amazing in a real ceiling raiser as, as a number two.
- [53:22]
Tony Jones
I was smiling because I was happy you gave Isaiah Thomas some love, which he deserves. Yeah, no, I, I, but I, I agree with you. Like, to me, the Kyrie Irving case is really complicated, you know, for so many reasons. He was an amazing scorer. Aesthetically. He's probably one of the most enjoyable to watch NBA players right in, in history, just for all the reasons that Tony said, like, his handle was amazing, the way he finishes, the spin he puts on the ball around the rim, all of it. Right. And yet I struggle with him because he's never been the best player on his team when it comes to, in a, in a highly successful situation. As Tony said, he's always been the second best player. Right? That, so that kind of puts A cap on him, how we can think about him historically, at least to me, I don't know what, like, how he would be in a situation where he's the best player there. Because some of his game, I struggle to see how it contributes to winning. Right outside of the scoring. He's been hurt a lot, which obviously, you know, you got to be able to play, right? Like you got to be able to play games to, you know, to build your resume, you know. The other thing is he's been destructive at so many times in his career. Right. Like you mentioned what happened in Boston, he pushed his way out of Cleveland, you know, blowing up that situation that they had, you know, in Brooklyn. Not only did he have a trade request before that, he was suspended for eight games for tweeting out a link to an anti Semitic film. Right. Which caused another stir on top of the pain that it did to. To Jewish people in that area. Right. So. And everywhere. So there's a lot there that really makes it difficult to be able to contextualize them. And so I kind of compare him a little bit to a more injury prone Carmelo Anthony. Right. Carmelo on this list, I think is in the mid-60s, I think 66 or so. Someone who is a great scorer, who needs to be around better players for that team to be like a title contender or a championship level team, but has an elite skill that if put in the right place, really lifts up your team and if he's not in with the right people and in the right situation, can take it down. And I wonder, because I always think about greatness and how it contributes to winning as much as I do with individual skill. Like how I wonder, should we have him above, like a Draymond Green? Should we have him above Jayson Tatum? Right. Jason Tatum being the best player on the title team, who's got more, who's got even better personal accolades even this early into his career. So it's hard with Kyrie. I would probably have him lower on this list, but that's just because I like to reward kind of like a more, I don't know, team style of play.
- [56:17]
Jared Weiss
Yeah, it's funny because I was next going to go to underrated. And Draymond at 100 is. It's. It's absurd. Like, it just shows that how offensive focused the way that we do these rankings are, which is fine because generally a player is usually able to have more of an impact on offense than defense individually. But that's not the case with Draymond. Draymond is probably the third best defender in NBA history, I would say with Russell and Elijah one probably as the guys you put ahead of him.
- [56:51]
Tony Jones
There's a lot of great defenders, but he's definitely one of the best. I, I don't know where he ranks.
- [56:56]
Mike Vorkanoff
Dennis Rodman is the best. For me, he's Dennis Rodman. Detroit Bad Boys. Dennis Rodman, who's the best defender I've played ever seen.
- [57:05]
Jared Weiss
Okay, so either way, top five defensive player all time, I would say. And was. You know, the warriors are such. The focus is on Steph, which it should be, and how we revolutionize them. But Draymond also quietly revolutionized defense and built the switch defense that we see in the modern day and the up to touch, you know, drops that we see. And you know, he, he, I mean he, his impact on defense is probably as. Almost as big or not the same as like James Harden's impact on offense in this, in that era as well. And so if, if you look at how great his defense is and the fact that he was so deeply ingrained in the defense, especially in like the Finals where he really, really dominated defensively, like his off. His defensive impact I really think was commensurate with the offensive impact of some of like the greatest offensive players ever that are way higher on this list. And then you couple that with so many of those guys were really bad defender or defenders. Draymond offensively, like, we know we can't score, but he also was the playmaker that ran the Warrior system that Steph was thriving off of. Like Draymond was kind of the point center on that team and was such an integral part to how great that offense was. So he really was a major two way impact. So I think he should be like, he should almost double how high he is on this list considering how much that team has won, considering how great he has been in the Finals. Like, as much as these regular season stats matter, like, Draymond has proven every single year to be like elite in the Finals, in the postseason. And he's. I just, it's. It's hard to believe that he's underrated considering how much we've talked about him over the years and how much attention he's gotten. But I do think he's like one of the most underrated players of all time.
- [58:56]
Mike Vorkanoff
So I, I struggle with, I struggle with what you said, Jared, and I struggle with, I struggle with Draymond a little bit because I think the one thing that defines you on this list is how situation proof you are as a player. So one of the reasons why we struggle with. With Kyrie is if you do not put Kyrie with 2016, LeBron James, who might be the best individual player ever in that season, and if you don't put him with 20, 24, Luka Doncic, who was a maniac, then you know, he doesn't win. And if you take Stephen Curry away from Draymond Green, he's not winning, period. You take. And. And. And I don't know that it's the other way around. Like, I think Stephen Curry wins at least one title if Draymond is on none of those teams. So the. The thing that I agree with you, Jared, is that, you know, I think he's one of the things. One of the best seven defenders ever. I don't know. I'd go top three. I don't know if I'd go top five. There were a lot of really, really good defenders in NBA history. And, you know, the connective part of what you said is completely true. Like, he's. He's one of the best 4 on 3 decision makers in NBA history. Like, you get him downhill in a four on three, he makes the right read every single time. And that makes Golden State's offense go because it makes Golden State's offense unguardable because you can't double step. And. But the. The thing that. That kills me is that, you know, Draymond, you know, was Draymond doesn't like playing without Steph. Like, if Steph's not in the lineup, Draymond is like, yo, I don't. I don't want to play tonight. Or he just physically actually does not play that night. And, you know, I. I struggle with that. And, you know, and I think if. If, you know, you put him, you know, on the Charlotte Hornets or somewhere like that, then, you know, there's completely one side of the ball that's just taken away from him. And, you know, I think, you know, he's. I think he belongs in the top hundred because, you know, defensively, he's situation proof. Like, it doesn't matter what situation you put him in, what team you put him on, he's going to be one of the best defenders in NBA history. But I think his offensive ceiling was tied so heavily to Stephen Curry and Stephen Curry's presence that, you know, Frankly, I think 100. You know, maybe 100 is a little low, but, you know, somewhere between 85 and 190 to 100, that's. That's fair for me.
- [62:02]
Tony Jones
No, I was going to say I think the other thing that I kind of struggle with and I'm curious where you guys fall is kind of like peak versus longevity. You know, like Grant Hill, his career ended at, you know, like 27, basically, right? Yeah, Obviously he kept playing, but like Grant Hill, that Grant Hill, you know, was done at about age 27. You know, like someone like Penny Hardaway who didn't make this list, but, you know, by the time he was 25, already made like, I think two NBA, all. All NBA first teams and all NBA second team was just amazing player, right. Compared to Brandon Roy. Like, you know, all these guys whose careers got cut short by injury, but who, when they were healthy or Brandon Roy was ever healthy, but when he was able to play were awesome, you know, and comparing that over the. Over the length of time for guys like a Vince Carter who had a very long career but at their peak was probably never as good, or, you know, some of the other guys on this list. And so I struggle with all that, too, as we look through this. This kind of portion of the list and say, okay, who could be higher, who could be lowers, comparing just where they were at their absolute apex versus, you know, giving a lot of credit to someone who had a very long and great and decorated career, but maybe just never reached that same level of play.
- [63:18]
Jared Weiss
And everyone's career is a bell curve, right? Like, you. You have your ascension, you have your relatively stable peak generally. And I, you know, as you could tell based on what Tony and I were saying, I think I'm a context. I'm a context focused person rather than a context agnostic person. I'm going to judge you based on what you actually did in the context that you did it. And so you might look better because of the team that you're on. But I look at that as that, like most players generally are context dependent. There's only a bit probably like only like a couple handfuls of guys that would have been. Would have been exactly the same no matter where they were, you know, and Paul Arizon and Bill Sharman is a good example. Like, I think, you know, Arizon was a better player, clearly, and Charman won more championships because he was on a better team. And. But they were very similar players in so many ways. And so that's why I think for me, like Draymond, the bell curve of his career was not as high as pennies, but, like, it was, I think, close enough, and it was so much wider. And same with Grant Hill, you know, Grant Hill, someone we all agreed is, you know, was probably the player that, if he was healthy, jumps higher than anybody else on this list. But like, Draymond has had a sustained success of like a decade, probably where he was a championship level player. And that's. That's really rare. That's really rare. And that's a big part of why I value him so highly.
- [64:36]
Tony Jones
Yeah, no, absolutely.
- [64:38]
Mike Vorkanoff
No, go ahead, Mike.
- [64:40]
Tony Jones
No, I was gonna say absolutely. I think we have to realize too, that modern players also have a longer, you know, kind of like thick part of their bell curve, Right? Like, they're just able to play longer and maintain that. That high level of play for a longer period of time, too. And so that kind of complicates this discussion as well. There's so many guys who are, you know, 60s, 70s and 80s, whose careers at their top level, play at their peak, you know, had fizzled out by the time they hit, you know, 32, 33, even 31. Right. And for the modern player, they can just sustain it that much longer. And that helps our case.
- [65:17]
Mike Vorkanoff
Well, I think the thing with Draymond that, you know, with Jared is saying. And I think the thing that, you know, puts a point in Draymond's favor is the fact that he's stayed in tremendous shape throughout his entire career. And, you know, he's been able to, you know, to. To. To rake and take, you know, grab a rebound, you know, bust out, you know, start a fast break, start advantage situations, you know, just off of a rebound. You know, there. There are a few. There are a few power forwards better than that in. In this generation and, and in this era. And, you know, I think one thing that you could say about Draymond is that, you know, he's put indelible prints on some really big playoff situations. I mean, you know, if LeBron doesn't go super Saiyan in game seven of the NBA Finals, Draymond Green might win a Finals MVP because he had 33, 10 and nine in that game seven.
- [66:23]
Tony Jones
Can you win Finals MVP when you kicked your way out of game six? He.
- [66:28]
Mike Vorkanoff
I mean, he had a 30 point triple double essentially in game seven of that finals.
- [66:35]
Jared Weiss
That was. That's my. Probably my favorite game in NBA history. Yeah, we've never seen anything like that since then.
- [66:41]
Mike Vorkanoff
No, we've never seen anything like that. And you're talking about a non shooter who I think hit like seven or eight threes in that game seven. So, you know, you look at that and you look at. One thing that sticks out with me of Draymond was his performance in the 2019 Conference Finals against Portland, where he absolutely dominated the Trailblazers in. In that conf. In that. In that conference finals over the course of two or three games. Just absolutely took the series over defensively and, you know, and was. Was great offensively as well. 2022 in. In the finals. You know, he struggles in the early part of that finals and. And then he's dominant in the later. In the later part of that final. So, you know, I mean, if you want to put feathers in Draymond's scat, I mean, he's, you know, you could point to the situations where he's performed, you know, outlier in terms relative to. To where his. His skill set is. And he's done it like four or five times. So, you know, he. He's, you know, as good as he is defensively, he's also been a playoff riser, and I think that that. That helps his case as well.
- [67:58]
Jared Weiss
And it's funny, we. We said all this stuff about him. We didn't really talk about the fact that like we did with Kyrie, he also is probably the most infuriating player of our lifetime as well. And I can't think of. He's one of my favorite players ever, and I can't think of a player that I have been more annoyed with and just like completely flabbergasted by his absolute insane stupidity sometimes than Draymond. And that's part of the experience and maybe part of why he's a little bit lower than I thought. Quickly, before we get out of here, anyone else, really quickly that you have a hot take on, positive or negative?
- [68:29]
Tony Jones
I feel like. I feel like we should give man him some love, obviously.
- [68:33]
Jared Weiss
Sure. You know, my favorite.
- [68:35]
Tony Jones
He's. He was such a great part of that spurs team and a credit to him that he's at 82 on this list, starting his career late, a bench. Best known as a bench player. Right. And despite that, he was an amazing player. That. And I think we got to give Chris Bosh some love as well. And I don't know, picking on the modern players more so than, you know, the kind of the old timers, mostly just because I've seen more of them. But Chris Bosh and his willingness to supplement his ego and his role for those Miami Heat teams and to go there. And he was such a key part of that team defensively. Right. Like, his offensive numbers kind of took a dive.
- [69:11]
Jared Weiss
He was.
- [69:12]
Tony Jones
If you look at his numbers in Toronto and just how he played were great. And then he gets to Miami and is like, all right, I'm just going to be the center of this defense in so many ways, along with, obviously LeBron and Wade were both great defenders. So I'm not saying it was just him, but just the way that he fit into that Miami team, you know, he has a case for, for being a little bit higher in the list as well.
- [69:32]
Mike Vorkanoff
Yeah, Chris Boss, the Toronto version of Chris Bosh, was, you know, arguably, arguably a top 10 player. And I think we all forget that because, you know, as soon as he got to Miami, it became really, really, really clear very quickly that all three of these guys could not, you know, somebody had to, somebody had to sacrifice, you know, and it didn't make sense for it to be LeBron because he was the best player. And it didn't make sense for it to be Dwyane Wade because it was, you know, everybody came to him like, they didn't go to LeBron, they didn't go to Chris Bosh. Everybody went to Dwayne, to Dwyane Wade. So, you know, it became really clear that somebody had to sacrifice a game and his game and that somebody had to be Chris Bosch. And you know, in, in, you know, pursuant to how underrated he was, you know, nobody talks about in history, it was him that got the offensive rebound that led and made the pass out that led to Ray Allen's three in the 2013 NBA Finals. And if it wasn't for Chris Bosh, that play doesn't happen.
- [70:49]
Jared Weiss
And just one last thing on Bosch that doesn't get talked about enough is he was pioneering in that he was one of the first fives that turned that transition into being a spot up shooter to bring about the five out era that like, kind of like after that team, especially with the warriors taking over, like, kind of became the default for the next decade. And he didn't shoot threes before that. And then like, before him, KG was kind of a similar player, like refused, like actively refused to take threes. And so Bosch was the guy willing to take those shots and he enabled a new system that became the norm. And so it's always, we don't want to like overrate the value of guys, just like kind of trying things that are new. And it wasn't like, it was a massive part of his game, but he was kind of the guy that really started that movement and they had to.
- [71:33]
Mike Vorkanoff
Do it because Roy Hibbert and Tyson Chandler were in the Eastern Conference at that point and they had to find a way to get those guys away from the basket. To give space to LeBron on the line.
- [71:45]
Jared Weiss
Can't think of a better way to end this NBA 100 episode than Roy Hibberts. So for Tony Jones and Mike Vorkanoff, our producer Andrew Schleicht, who just makes everything work around here, I'm Jared Weiss and we'll see you next time.
- [72:07]
Derek Clason
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- [73:09]
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- [73:37]
Mike Vorkanoff
Man, look at that return of the old king, man.
- [73:40]
Jared Weiss
Oh, wow, Emotional. King of the Hill is back.
- [73:44]
Mike Vorkanoff
They got a bomb in the airport now.
- [73:46]
Jared Weiss
Oh, that's Boba.
- [73:47]
Mike Vorkanoff
World has changed, dad.
- [73:49]
Jared Weiss
Bobby wants to bring that new girl over for dinner.
- [73:51]
Tony Jones
The Vegas.
- [73:52]
Mike Vorkanoff
What the hell am I supposed to feed her?
- [73:54]
Jared Weiss
Can't we just put some grass in a bowl? From Mike Judge and Greg Daniels. Ready to make some memories, dad? Let's freaking go. A Hulu original series King of the Hill. All episodes now streaming on Hulu.