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- [00:01]
David Aldridge
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- [01:14]
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- [01:44]
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- [03:15]
Joe Vardon
We're down to it now. The top five in the basketball 100, the book that all of us at the Athletic contributed to. I'm David Aldridge along with Joe, Joe Varden and Law Murray. We're going down from 5 to 1. You've heard 100 to 6. Send your hate mail to Andrew Schlect. It is a labor of love and a labor of debate. We understand that. And as I've said about a few hundred times in doing these podcasts with various people over the last year or so, the book is designed for people to disagree. The book is designed for people to argue. Because there's no way you can come up with the right answer about anything except that Michael Jordan's number one, which is, which is clear and obvious to anybody that cares about basketball. But we can discuss, and we will discuss over the next few minutes about this list. So we're down to the top five as voted upon by the athletic staff. And let's start with the notion of joy. Let's start with the notion of, hey, these are the best of the best of the best of the best. And that should make us happy. It shouldn't make us angry, it should make us happy because these are the guys that were head and shoulders above everybody else. So let's start with across the way my screen is set up, Joe is next to me and was next to Joe. So let's start with Joe. Which one of these guys makes you happy to rank this high?
- [04:50]
Law Murray
I guess I would say Russell because I really like that someone who played so long ago can stand the test of time. Obviously this is basically a different sport. When Mr. Russell was out there winning 12 titles, I believe that's the right number.
- [05:12]
Joe Vardon
Well, 11 and 13 seasons. Yeah.
- [05:14]
Law Murray
Okay, 11 and 13 seasons. I never saw him play. I saw Kareem play a little bit and I was 11 in, in 1991 when magic made the announcement that he had contracted the virus. So you know, I, he would be. Of those three, he's who I remember the most. But it has to be Russell, I think from a joy perspective. Just because, you know, when you put. When you have a career and you have a life's work, you want people to be able to remember it and even for it to transcend I think generations in this case. And, and Russell certainly has been able to do that. You know, he retired when. Late 60s, early, I think late 69 maybe.
- [06:06]
Joe Vardon
60.
- [06:06]
Law Murray
Yeah, 69. So you know, that's a long time to have, to have not played and to be as I, I guess, you know, as honored and respected as he is still in this game is pretty cool.
- [06:21]
Joe Vardon
Cool law. How about you?
- [06:25]
Andrew Schlect
By default it, it's, it's Michael Jordan. And I say by default because I got into basketball in 1995. That was after Bill Russell, after Kareem Abdul Jabbar have completely concluded their careers. And when it comes to Magic Johnson. I remember watching Magic Johnson when he came back to the Lakers, you know, but I was too young to watch him when he was Magic for real. You know, like the Magic that we got to see in 1996, that was a different version of Magic. You know, I'm so, I'm grateful I got to see that version play. Like that's kind of crazy me looking back, but you know, Michael Jordan and even with Michael Jordan, it's like I knew of Michael Jordan even when I thought I would never have anything to do with basketball. You know, like pre first retirement Jordan, I was like, you know, even in kindergarten people was like, oh yeah, Mike, he had crossed over to the point where a four year old knew who he was. So it was a big deal for me to actually see him come back and to see him ascend the Bulls back to the three peat that I'm familiar with. The first three peat that wasn't a three peat that I grew up with. You know, I just knew that that existed. But I got to see that three peat in real time. I got to see them watch to see them win 72 games in real time. And I didn't even like the Bulls. I didn't even like Mike like that. I wanted to. I was more interested in like, man, they always talk about Mike, what they gonna say if he ever loses. And that dude never lost.
- [08:11]
Joe Vardon
Never lost. He took care of that.
- [08:13]
Andrew Schlect
He was the, he was, he was the inspiration for Love Bar Ball. As far as I' Like, I never saw him lose in the playoffs. Like, 95 didn't count to me. So, like, to actually have him, you know, as a part of my basketball, like, coming of age, you know, that is always something that I'm going to really. I'm never going to forget that. Like, I knew what people were saying about Mike when he was playing, at least in the second half of the 90s, and that allows me to, like, look back 30 years later, and it's like, oh, he's at the top. And it's like, yeah, I'm not going to debate that.
- [08:53]
Joe Vardon
So, yeah, yeah.
- [08:55]
Andrew Schlect
I don't know if the right word is joy or excitement. Like, our producer Andrew just, you know, kept it consistent, and I appreciate the consistency. But this is. This list is obviously different than the other list. This is the top. So we knew who's going to be here. I'm not shocked that these are the top five.
- [09:14]
Joe Vardon
All right. I'm very glad that Russell's on the list. I don't understand. There's something about people who claim to like basketball. I don't know that they actually do, but people who claim to like basketball, that would have a problem with Bill Russell being in the top five because he wasn't, like, a great offensive player, which seems insane to me, because he was the greatest defensive force in the history of the game. And the record is the record. If it was Easy to win 11 titles in 13 seasons, other people would have done it besides Bill Russell. So there's something singular to Bill Russell's excellence that made that possible. I don't care what era it's in. I don't care if there were plumbers and firemen. They weren't, but I don't care if you think they were. Those were the best basketball players in the world at that time. And Bill Russell dominated all of them. And not. And not just dominated them, dominated them to a point where he literally was the cause of Jerry West's incredible angst as a human being through the adult portion of his career. Because he's. He could not beat Bill Russell, Celtics, no matter what he tried, no matter who he played with. And that's what. When you talk about destroying people, that's what Bill Russell did. That's what Michael Jordan did. That's why they're at the top of the list, because they didn't just beat teams, they destroyed them. They destroyed their mental capacity and will to continue competing against them. And that's kind of the ultimate triumph of an athlete. Right. Especially a professional one. Because the other guys are getting paid, too, and the other guys are getting paid a lot of money, and the other guys are really great players, too. But I'm happy that Russell's on the list. But the one that really makes me happier is Kareem, because I think Kareem has simply been forgotten. And I'm not sure why. I'm not sure why. Well, I have theories, but Kareem's just been forgotten by most people, including historians, including a lot of historians who follow the game, who were serious about the game. And I. Part of it is. I think Kareem as a player was not a very. He was not one that cultivated the media very well. He was very standoffish to the media throughout most of his career. Did not have much to say to the media, and that was part of it. But that's not all of it. There's a lot of players who were not particularly media friendly. I think part of it is Kareem was not an exciting basketball player. You know, not the way that LeBron's exciting when he has the ball in his hands, or Michael's exciting when he ends the ball. And Magic was exciting when he was leading Lakers on the break. Kareem wasn't at all exciting. But as I keep saying, he scored 38,000 points, essentially with one shot. He had one thing that he did. He made one career three pointer in his entire professional career. One.
- [12:18]
Law Murray
Wow.
- [12:20]
Joe Vardon
He had one move. Now, he had other stuff. He had. He had a step back, his step through, and he had some other things that he did. But basically he took the ball over his left shoulder and threw a skyhook at you, and you knew he was going to do it. And everybody in the building knew he was going to do it. And everybody watching on TV knew was going to do it. And nobody could stop it. Couldn't stop it. And he just kept hooking sky. Hooking you to death and did it. And scored 38,000 points and set a record that lasted almost four decades.
- [12:52]
Law Murray
My question for you.
- [12:53]
Joe Vardon
Yes.
- [12:54]
Law Murray
When. When did Kareem stop being the best player on the Lakers?
- [13:01]
Joe Vardon
That was, you know, pretty soon after Magic got there. It took a year or two, I'd say, make going to. Certainly by the time they lost to the Celtics in 84. And this is my opinion, I wasn't covering the league then, but I was watching. Kareem was still the best player, but I think after that, it was clear that Magic was a better player. Not. Not that he was a better player than Kareem, but At the time, he was a better player than Kareem because Kareem was getting older and Worthy had come along. And so it was. They had multiple best players. Worthy was outstanding. And look at his finals numbers. Don't take my word for it. Just go look it up. Look at. Look at what he averaged in Finals series. But, yeah, I would say mid-80s. And then after that, certainly Magic had taken over and was the guy. But Kareem was still capable. If you watch game two of the finals in. In 85, you. You know how he was still capable. He just couldn't do it every night anymore. But, yeah, so I'm glad Kareem is in the top, top three. I know Isaiah Thomas, who I, who I've known for a long time, believes this with all his heart, that Kareem's the best player who ever played. And you can disagree with it. I'm not saying you should agree with it. I just know that there are people who are in the hall of Fame that think Kareem's the best who ever played. And I. And I think the lack of sexiness to the sky hook is what kind of keeps him from being remembered. There's just nothing particularly interesting about that move, but it was the most devastating offensive move in the history of basketball. It was. There's nothing. Nobody else did that more often than Kareem shot a sky. So I'm glad he's in the top. I'm glad he's in the top five. I'm glad he's getting his due. Oh, by the way, six league MVPs. One more than Jordan. So, you know. Yeah, I mean, Kareem was just unbelievable. Unbelievable because it's a podcast. We have to argue now for a few minutes. So I hope you guys don't mind. It's mandate. It's actually mandated by law now that we have to argue.
- [15:34]
Law Murray
We.
- [15:36]
Joe Vardon
We're supposed to say. We're supposed to ask the question, who's ranked too high and who's ranked too low in these top five. I think it's kind of silly, but, you know, because it's five, it's not like they have. It's not like it's not like it's 1 to 40, it's 1 to 5. I don't know. I guess. Is this where we talk about Jordan and LeBron for the billionth time? Is that what. Maybe we do that now, which is fine. We can do it again.
- [16:00]
Law Murray
I guess. You know, you said at the top that anybody who likes basketball and is really paying Attention has Michael at number one. You know, I mean, among the. There's so many things that are awesome about your career, David, and one of them, of course, is that you actually covered both guys, which is so cool. And then, as you know, every time we get together for dinner, I just ask you to tell as many stories as you can about the Michael days. I. I am actually, I am in the. The growing minority that. That lists LeBron above Michael. But I, you know, I guess. I guess where I come. Where I'm coming from is two things. One, LeBron is the star I covered.
- [16:54]
Joe Vardon
And.
- [16:54]
Law Murray
And so, of course there's going to be, you know, there's just have a little more access to his game. But also I just think. I think that, you know, he's had a longer career and he's. What he's accomplished is either, you know, either more so minus the titles. And it's. And. And, you know, he's got the scoring record. And, you know, part of what goes into winning finals, right, is you have to be the last guy standing, the last team standing and the healthiest team, and you can't blow in Achilles and you know all that stuff. Like, so. So you're rewarded for being able to make it. And so when we say things like, well, you know, LeBron is the leading scorer now just because he played so much longer than Michael. Well, okay, but. But he gets credit for that. So. So I guess my argument is now at this point, which is a few years after we all did the book, LeBron's had the better.
- [18:00]
Joe Vardon
The.
- [18:01]
Law Murray
The better, longer career. And so that's. I guess that's. That's why I say what I say.
- [18:09]
Joe Vardon
Yeah, okay. Okay, jump in long.
- [18:14]
Andrew Schlect
My thing with. My thing with Michael Jordan and just looking at what he was able to do, like, his statistical output is crazy. And a lot of that statistical output was before he won championships. Like, when you look at his 1988 season, and I was looking at that quite a bit because, you know, I had this thing where I love Shay Gilius Alexander's MVP season this year. You know, I was like, look at the numbers that shape is putting up. Like, at this age that he is. When Michael was that age. And I was like, man, you can see some similarities, but I'm not doing that for 1988. Jordan, when that dude was MVP and defensive player of the year in the same year. As a guard, like, you can't even be a guard and be considered defensive player to get. Now, you know, Marcus Smart got it. And everybody was like, man finally did what Gary Payton did. That was damn near 20 years earlier. Then like, like, it's the statistical output that was like, I can do this. Like that dude was dropping 30s every season for like six years straight. And then translated that into winning at a time where not only did everybody say you don't win with your guard, you know, without. Without a dominant big. Like Magic was a guard, but he wasn't guard size. And he did have Kareem. Like, if he didn't have Kareem, he wouldn't have gone to the Lakers because he would have stayed at Michigan State. Like, right. Like that's another thing we should get into. But it's like Magic was insulated in the fact that he got to start his career winning right away. Like Michael Jordan was playing for Chicago Bulls team that nobody was talking about in the early 80s. Like, that's what y' all tell me anyway.
- [20:20]
Joe Vardon
Like, no, you're right. He was playing with Granville Waiters and.
- [20:25]
Andrew Schlect
Like, wow, that's a great goal. Like there's something valuable in that. Like he had to, he, he had to create and establish a lot and then they had to tell him, but you're not winning. And then he won and then he dipped and then he came back and was a different kind of player. Like his game was different in the late 90s compared to the 80s and he dominated that. That's the mid range mic that I'm familiar with. He could still get up and bang every now and again, but like he evolved his game to still dominate at the age that he did to the point where like Nasdans Mike. The most impressive thing about that is that team was ancient. He was 34, turning 35, and Scotty's back was wearing out. And Dennis Rodman wasn't that dude who could, you know, he could still rebound, but like he wasn't the defensive force you. He wasn't even starting anymore. You know, at parts of that season. Like there are things that are about to get lost to history because of the a, the era of LeBron. And LeBron has been chasing Mike his whole career. It's been 20 plus years. He's still chasing him. And we can still say that it's a respect thing, it's a objective statement. Like LeBron can say, like one of the reasons he still has something to play for, and I feel like one of the reasons Mike didn't play as long and had interruptions in his career is because he won to the point where he felt like he could walk. And that is Something that. I don't know if we could ever feel that way about Bronco. I don't know if Brian will ever feel that way, period. I do. If I feel like if KD didn't go to the warriors and. Or Bron really did win 5, 6, 7 with Miami, I don't know if Bron's playing today. I just don't know. And so that is something that, again, I feel like I never thought we would lose Michael Jordan, the history. But we're good. Going to. We're going to do. That's going to happen, and it's going to probably happen when Bron is done playing.
- [22:42]
Joe Vardon
I remember very distinctly Kevin McAle saying this one time, and this was 15 years ago, said, they'll forget about Michael Jordan. And I said, that's insane. How are they going. They're not going to forget about Michael Jordan. He said, you watch, they're going to forget about Michael Jordan. They're going to forget how great he was. And he's right. And they're starting to forget already. I would say this. I've said this again many times in many podcasts. LeBron's got a case now. He's got a case.
- [23:11]
Law Murray
You.
- [23:12]
Joe Vardon
It's not like you're reaching if you say he's the best player of all time. The thing. The thing to me, that is what makes LeBron's case compelling to me, as somebody doesn't even agree with the case, but understands that it's a real thing. The thing that is most compelling to me is the eight straight finals. Like, that's impossible. Like, that doesn't. Michael didn't make eight straight finals. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so no matter. Again, you can talk about whatever you can say the east was weak. And Bob, it doesn't matter if it was easy to make eight straight finals, everybody would be doing it because these are the best players in the world, okay? And everybody's not doing it. One guy did it him with two different teams, by the way. So that, to me, is the most compelling part of his case, is that for a decade, he had a chance every year to win a championship. That's Bill Russell territory, okay? That's. There's very few people that can say that year after year after year. And LeBron can say it because his team, he led his team to eight straight finals. And that is amazing, right? And so he's got a case. The longevity piece is certainly a part of it. The excellence during that longevity at season 22, he's still really good he's not hanging on at the end, scoring, averaging six points a game. Like, he's still really good. So that is, that is incredible to me. And so I don't disparage LeBron. Kareem's got a case, Bill Russell's got a case, but LeBron's got the better case, right, because of all that we've talked about. So if it comes down. Yeah, go ahead, Joe.
- [25:08]
Law Murray
Is LeBron's. I've been thinking about this while we've been talking is. And I feel like. But, but you two might have a better, better look at this. I feel like of the FA. Of the five top players, LeBron's game is the only one that you could drop in any era. And he wouldn't have to change at all because of his size and athleticism. Like he could have played in the Russell era and of course he could have played in the 80s. Like he's big and strong enough to be able to withstand that. Of course he could have played in the 90s and now he's a dominant player. You know, Michael, Michael's game is, is, is close, but he shot 32% from three. And he also played in an era where the salary structures were so much different. How, how would he do in this era when he would command so much money and it would cost against the salary cap in terms of team building and then the other three guys on the list, I mean, the game was different. Like you could say maybe Magic's game would fit the best now. But you know, David, at the top, you said that cream attempted 13 now, you know, in his first career. Yeah, Bigs have shown that they can teach themselves how to do it. Brook Lopez is just one, one example. But you know, Joel Embiid is the last center to win MVP. He's, he's a 35, 36% three point shooter. So, you know, he and Russell would, would have to change. So is that part of the discussion that LeBron's game is the most applicable to any era?
- [26:43]
Joe Vardon
I think. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
- [26:45]
Andrew Schlect
Yeah, I was just say, like the coolest thing about Braun is as someone who is a high school graduate of in 05, like the fact that he was told he was supposed to be great in high school because of his physical, you know, the fact that at 18 years old he looked like a fully formed man already and he still had physical development after that and he lived up to all of that. You know, I thought that was the most impressive thing because any quote unquote, chosen ones before him, like Mike, we knew his high school story. He got cut.
- [27:26]
Joe Vardon
Right? Right.
- [27:27]
Andrew Schlect
Ron wasn't getting cut in high school. You know what I'm saying? And that's what is like, you're. You can. You can find people who look like Kareem who look like Bill Russell. I mean, even with Magic, Magic had the size, but he didn't have the athleticism that Bron had. Like, bronze mix of size and athleticism is truly the most. One of one thing. And then he combined that with being great as a basketball player, which, I mean, that doesn't. That doesn't always happen. And that's the thing where it's like his special size and. And athleticism to go with the skill, and some of the skill had to develop. He wasn't shooting that thing coming straight out, you know, like that. That. That is what transcends errors. And that's the thing where it's like, when I look at all these dudes and it's like, oh, what could they have done here? It's like Bill Russell, for example. It's like, as we know he was a great athlete. We know he dominated games with his rebounding and his intelligence and his. And his defense, even to how he blocked shots. Like, he was saying, I can block shots. I'm a block shots to start fast breaks. And dudes don't do that enough. They just want to send that thing to the fifth row. Right. But what does Bill Russell's ability to make shots from anywhere, how does that translate to different errors? That's probably the biggest demerit to Bill's top five case. Just because you look at the percentages, you look at the fact that he never dropped 20 a game in the ranking scene. Did a couple times in the playoffs, and you're like, could you really have Bill Russell lead your team in. In the 21st century? It would be. It would look weird. Right? That's. I feel like. I feel like that's the whole. When we talk about era hopping, like, yeah, it's bronze body combined with his game, and I don't think everybody else has anywhere close to a case like that.
- [29:25]
Joe Vardon
Well, that's. I, yeah, I see what you. I do agree with part of what you're saying. Part of what you're saying. I do think Braun could. You could play. LeBron could play in an era because of his. His basketball acumen and his size, but so could Magic for the same reason, because Magic was as cerebral a player has ever lived. And so the fact that he didn't shoot it great would be mitigated by the fact that he wouldn't have to because he'd be getting layups all the time or he'd be diming people up and other people would be shooting wide open threes. I mean think about that now. Think about magic in an era when he's surrounded by three point shooters and how many assists he would generate.
- [30:11]
Andrew Schlect
Okay, so.
- [30:12]
Joe Vardon
And how many points his team would score. He did that in an era where they didn't shoot a lot of threes. So it was a much more congested paint. Right. And he still managed to get incredible amounts of assists every year. To, to the. The Michael piece about his three point shooting which a lot of people bring up, I would simply ask this. If Michael Jordan is considered the greatest winner in in mod in his era and was to lost point earlier the best offensive player in the league and the best defensive player in the league in the same season at guard.
- [30:56]
Law Murray
Do.
- [30:56]
Joe Vardon
We think he wouldn't have become the best three point shooter in the league too if three pointers were important back then?
- [31:03]
Andrew Schlect
Oh, he works. He wouldn't find shooting it like the thing with shooting is look at, you know and this is the part of the game that, that it's changed but it hasn't changed. Like what's changed is that mid range to the three like, like the mid range was the dominant shot to the point where you know, you had power forwards catching it at the top of the free throw circle and shooting it then. And if you see that in 2025 you would think that's just asinine. Why are you catch spotting up from the top?
- [31:42]
Joe Vardon
Bill Lambert shot. Yes, yes.
- [31:45]
Andrew Schlect
But it's like if you grew up and you watched Seven especially the 70s when there wasn't no damn three point line. But do you watch 80s and 90s basketball? It's like that's not only how these dudes grew up but that's how it's like we're going to get good shots from this area, whatever. Like that's what analytics is. Analytics is take a few steps back and get yourself an extra point. And so I think when you play the game in a way where it's like that is not a considerable area on the floor. That's not our offense. You know it's like, you know when we watch football and it's like yeah, there ain't no, ain't a lot of plays for third and 15. Like I feel like a lot of not just teams and coaches, you know when I say teams I mean the Group of guys that you put together to form your roster, Right. It's like, oh yeah, you can have one guy out of 15 who can shoot three. Who cares? Like, that's probably what you're thinking in 1985, but like now that's crazy. It's like you can't do it like that.
- [32:40]
Joe Vardon
Sure.
- [32:41]
Andrew Schlect
I think it's like when that three point line moved in a bit for those three years, Michael was a clip just like everybody else from three, you know what I'm saying? It's like the league moved this line in. I think we should probably use it. That's how it was when it moved back. It was like, let's just go back to what it was. I think if Michael came up in this era, he's shooting the three. Well, Magic came up this era. Look how Magic was like, oh, they shooting threes a little bit more now, late 80s. And it's like that dude was like a 37% three point shooter for a year on pretty damn good volume, Especially correlating to his era. That's like, Joe, I love that you brought that up because it's like we're going to be like, man, I think guys get different abilities to play the game based on how the entire league was treating a part of the game. That's why you get the volume of threes that you have now. Not necessarily because teams are like, like, you know, standing out. It's because everyone's a copycat. It's like, well, we can't lose this margin too much. Like we might as well use this area, you know?
- [33:45]
Joe Vardon
Yeah, yeah. And Michael's game was predicated. A lot of Michael's game was predicated on drawing fouls too. Right. I mean, that was a big part of his game was getting.
- [33:53]
Andrew Schlect
Would you call him a foul merchant.
- [33:56]
Joe Vardon
In his way in his era? Sure. Yes. Yes. Right. Like all, like most great offensive players, he knows how to draw fouls. Like, he's good at it. Like he gets. For whatever reason, he gets the referees to blow their whistle. Like there's. That's a skill, right? That's a skill because everybody can't do it. And he was really good at it. He wasn't like the best I've ever seen at it, but he was, he was quite good at it. And he would have. I think as the gay as he got older, I think he would have relied more on the three pointer if it was a shot that was encouraged to be taken. Right. As opposed to what you were talking about law, which is became just an incredible low post fadeaway jump shooter. Like an amazingly efficient low post fade away shoot. He just was. He became excellent at it. Right. Because he couldn't jump as much as high and he couldn't do it as often as he used to. So all that to say that I think he would have adapted to the three pointer and been perfectly fine with it as he got older. He made six threes in the finals in game two. Come on. Like, it's not like he couldn't do it, it's just that he didn't do it, like. And so, so anyway, all of that to say while I, I do think LeBron's got a case, and I would never tell anybody who thinks LeBron's the best player ever that they're wrong. I. I mean, I would never say they're wrong to have the opinion. You. It's, it's okay to have that opinion. I just disagree with it because of what I saw from both of those guys when they were at their absolute best. And what. When LeBron was at his absolute. I would say he was at his absolute best with the Heat, I think is fair to say. I believe it. I think that's when he was at the peak of his game. And they made four straight finals and they went two and two, and they really should have gone one in three. I mean, you know, honestly, they should have gone one in three and they didn't. So you, you can't. I can't demerit him for winning. He won it. They did win it. So. Okay. But they went 2 and 2 when he was at his absolute best and when Jordan was at his absolute best as a player. He won the first, the first three, I think, was his peak as a player. He won three, went three, and. Oh, and went in fairly comfortably three. And like, it wasn't like, like, my favorite Michael Jordan stat is he never needed a Game seven, never needed one in the finals. He was six. And. Oh, with no Game seven, like. And so, I mean, I don't know, I just, I think that that is just. I think that's unassailable.
- [36:45]
Law Murray
I know that LeBron was at his most athletic when he was with the Heat. I wonder if he was a better player those next four years with the Cavs because he was a little smarter Floor, maybe a little better.
- [37:00]
Joe Vardon
Yeah.
- [37:01]
Law Murray
And then you would say, okay, great, he was a better player when he was with the Cavs and he went one and three.
- [37:06]
Joe Vardon
Yeah.
- [37:07]
Law Murray
But then you start talking about who they were playing against.
- [37:11]
Joe Vardon
That's fair. And this is fair. Yes, this is a fair.
- [37:13]
Law Murray
That's when we have to say, yes, Michael never saw that.
- [37:17]
Joe Vardon
Michael never played the Bulls. I would, I think it's fair to say the Bulls never played a team as good as the Warriors. Yeah. Now whatever.
- [37:26]
Law Murray
The Bulls.
- [37:27]
Joe Vardon
Yeah, right, whatever. Yeah, they were the warriors. Right. And so that the era was. The era is the era you play. You can only play the teams that are there. He can. You couldn't play the, the 58, 50 through 65 Celtics. They weren't available to play. So you can only play who's there. But you're right, I think that certainly the warriors were the best finals opponent between those two guys. Right. If you stack them all up, all of the finals teams that Michael Jordan and LeBron James played against, the warriors were the best opponent by far. Right? Like, it's not close. So that is fair. But greatness dictates that you still find a way to beat the team that's their best opponent.
- [38:19]
Law Murray
I want challenge. As the Cleveland guy who was born in the same hospital as LeBron four years before him, I. And the one who's like actually asking questions of probably the greatest player ever in, in Michael, I do want to say that, you know, we haven't talked about how Michael had that unquestioned killer instinct that LeBron does get questioned about. That's, that's, that's one thing Michael, Michael would stop at nothing to win. And then the other thing that, that I think is at least still true for anybody my age and maybe even anyone down to law's age. And then maybe under law is where this might change. But like, I think about Michael's impact on basketball, maybe the way I think about Tiger in golf. Whereas like when Michael came, when Michael came along and he got to be as good as he was, we, we as a sports community, we, we looked at basketball differently and we haven't really changed how we look at the game. I don't think since Michael, like, so, like LeBron, you could say, well, he's the all time leading scorer and he went to eight finals and he, you know, he, he led three different teams to finals. No one's ever done that either. But, and that's all, that's all fine, but he didn't change the way we think about the sport. Like, he's the next Michael, you know, like he's the next great Nike athlete with the, the lifetime contract and the shoe and wearing 23 and all this stuff. But Michael did it first. Like, you know, I just think again, I Think about Tiger. And of course, there were great golfers before him. There might. Jack Nicklaus might be better than Tiger, but. But we look at golf through the prism of what Tiger did.
- [40:18]
Joe Vardon
Yeah.
- [40:19]
Law Murray
And there's a guy right now playing his name, Scotty Scheffler, who. Who is as like he's. He's reeling off wins the way that Tiger did. We're not. We are nowhere near thinking about golf in the lens of it being Scotty Scheffler's game. He's just being compared to Tiger. And so I think, you know, maybe that's not a great comparison, because LeBron has done a lot more than Scotty has done in that sport. But. But I just do think that until we. Until we are able to look at basketball in a lens from. Other than what Michael did to it, I think that Michael will. Will always be at that. That top. That top line.
- [41:03]
Andrew Schlect
I think the challenging thing that LeBron has is something that. That DA brought up when he was talking about Kareem, actually, because the best thing that Michael had is that stretch of not being questioned. You know, that's what that's all six and oh means to anybody. It's a narrative thing to say with all the great players in the league at that time in both conferences, Michael, when he was at his best, couldn't be touched. Magic made the playoffs every single year of his career, and they lived in the Finals. Even if he was playing with Kareem, like, five championships in 12 years, and they were in the finals another, I think three or four.
- [41:51]
Joe Vardon
Three other finals appearances. Yes, yes.
- [41:53]
Andrew Schlect
Right. And then you got Bill Russell, who was literally 272 in playoff series, like, you know, literally 272 and. And never lost a game seven. Right. Like when Michael was like, oh, I don't need game sevens in the finals with Bill, it was, I don't. I need a Game 7, and I'm going to win it every single time. Like, that's unassailable.
- [42:17]
Joe Vardon
I think it's 11 and 0 in game seventh. 11.
- [42:20]
Andrew Schlect
Oh. And so with LeBron, we all know, like, you know, there's finals that he lost. There's times that he was great with that. Couldn't quite win it the biggest with me in Cleveland. You know, growing up as someone who wanted Bron to win all the time, his first one with the Cavs, because I wanted that for Braun and I wanted that for Cleveland. I had nothing to do with Cleveland. I'm from Philly. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was hurt personally when he couldn't make it out of the east after they won in O. They won the east in 07. Like that 07 run when he beat up the Piston, I was like, this is it. And yeah, they lost to the spurs, but it was like, he's going to get back. And that's when bron started winning MVPs. But that those 60 wins teams kept on not making it out. And that was like, man, you're being questioned. That's why the decision hit so hard with Kareem. Kareem played in the dark first 10 years in the league. He won like six MVPs and one title. And that title came in his second year with Oscar. And the whole league was in the dark. The Celtics dynasty was over. The day Bill Russell decided he was not only done playing, he was on coaching, he was on Boston, period. And the league. I just felt like everything that was, quote, unquote, problematic with the NBA or problematic with professional basketball, like the NFL had the super bowl, it was taking baseball, it was one on one. It's like basketball was lost. It was in the dark. It was so many things distracting.
- [43:53]
Joe Vardon
70S was. Was an era that nobody talks about or remembers at all.
- [43:58]
Andrew Schlect
And Kareem dominated that era. And it was.
- [44:01]
Joe Vardon
He was the best player. Yes, yes.
- [44:03]
Andrew Schlect
Like, he gets to Los. Yeah, he gets to Los Angeles in 1976 from Milwaukee, he wins another MVP. And that Lakers team didn't even make the playoffs.
- [44:14]
Joe Vardon
Right.
- [44:14]
Andrew Schlect
The ABA was about to fold. Like, basketball was in such a weird place that Kareem's greatness should have crossed over so much more. And it didn't because, you know, he was doing it at a time where pro basketball was on life support as far.
- [44:28]
Joe Vardon
No, it is law. It's a great consumption that Kareem's. That decade, which was Kareem's decade, there's not. It's not close. If Bill Walton hadn't gotten hurt, he may have challenged him, but he got hurt, so he couldn't challenge him. But that screams decade. He was the best player in the league by far in the 70s, and he only won one title. And so nobody remembers. Right. For a lot of reasons, but he only won one. So, yeah, I mean, that's a fair. He won all of his titles with the Lakers. Right. Like, almost all of them with the Lakers. So that's fair. That's a fair point to make about Kareem and his era. So, you know, I don't know that we're going to solve this conundrum anytime soon, but I wanted to close with this because with this is about, you know, the end of this book and I had a different experience than you guys did. But I, I did want to ask you, like, was there anything that you learned in doing this book or being a part of this book or talking about this book or, you know, about the league or about the players or about yourself? You know, like, because it's, it was a labor of love to me like this really. I really enjoyed doing this because I love telling stories and I love that, that younger fans know who Oscar Robertson was and know who Sam Jones was, you know, and know who Dolph Shays was. You know what I mean? Like I really. Because if you love basketball, you love all of it.
- [46:06]
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Joe Vardon
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Joe Vardon
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- [48:15]
Joe Vardon
Right? You should love all of it, at least. I think you shouldn't just love the part that you. That you're a fan of. You should love all of it. Right? Because you revere. I revere George Mikin. He saved the league. There'd be no league without George Mike, you know, like, you got to respect that, you know, and so I wonder what you guys got out of this, out of being a part of this series. And y' all can just jump in anytime you want.
- [48:41]
Law Murray
Well, it just. In listening to the question, I was honored and very appreciative that I was asked to do the LeBron piece to be a part of a project like this from a company like ours. And, you know, we don't need to get into too much, like, you know, patting ourselves on the back, but the Athletic has really become a force, and I think a long time down the road, you know, whatever our company is, people will talk about the Athletic. The way they've mentioned, you know, Sports Illustrated or espn, like, as you go on through. And so for the Athletic to do a top 100 book for basketball and. And just to have the privilege of. Of getting to rely on my experience of the last however many years following that guy from Akron, that meant a lot to me. But when you asked me about what I learned, you know, David, again, I mean, just with the. With our conversations, like, you, you know, that I really kind of appreciate history. And so I also got to talk to. Or I also got to work with. With Lenny Wilkins, and he delivered groceries to Jackie Robinson. Was just bold me over. It gives me goosebumps now, just, like, talking about it.
- [50:04]
Joe Vardon
Yeah.
- [50:05]
Law Murray
And then I just had this wild, insane conversation with Rick Barry as he drove across Florida. He was driving from, like, some golf tournament to some business thing that he had, and. And we just had this conversation that bounced all over the place. And I never talked to him before, and I don't even know if I used everything that we said, but just it was like an hour that, like, it was one of the most unique hours of my life. Talking. Having that conversation.
- [50:37]
Joe Vardon
Sure.
- [50:37]
Law Murray
And that. That never would happen without this book. So those are. Yeah, those are my memories, for sure.
- [50:45]
Andrew Schlect
Man. I just feel like, first of all, I'm just fortunate to be in a position to, you know, talk about ball, especially with you guys. Y' all have seen, like, things I haven't come close to seeing yet or experienced yet. And, like, when those moments happen, like, I'll appreciate it if those moments happen, but, like, I just think about how young the league is compared to other Sports, Their legends are still here. We still have them. We're losing them, though. And that. And, and that is something that I've kind of thought about a lot over the last few years. Like, I wrote the Oscar Robertson chapter, and again, that was a responsibility bestowed upon me, which was like, all right, cool, let's figure out how to do this. But there was one guy I didn't have a relationship with, Oscar. I got to meet him two years ago after I wrote this chapter, which was really cool. But I did have a relationship with Jerry west, and Jerry west basically helped me write that chapter.
- [51:48]
Joe Vardon
How about that?
- [51:49]
Andrew Schlect
I remember going, I was in the middle of an eight game road trip. Shout out to the Athletic. I was in the middle of an eight game road trip and I went to Orlando and sequestered myself in the hotel room. Look, first time in my life I was in Orlando. I wanted to go out and be like, oh, this is where Disney World is at. Like, I never heard. It was a miss to me. I'm in Orlando. I was like, nah, I got to write this chapter. And Jerry west said he was going to call me. And I still was like, he ain't going to call me now. My phone rings and he calls me and he's on the phone with me for an hour talking about a dude that was his contemporary, you know what I mean? I got to write off of that, and I can't do that today. Jerry's no longer with us. You know what I'm saying? Like, we got a lot of these guys who. It's literally living history in this game that we love. And the fact that we were able to put this book together, we got to talk to so many of these guys to talk about their careers and the careers of their peers and like, I don't know when we'll get to do something like this again. And I don't know who's going to be here when it's time to do that. So, yeah, yeah, that is the gravity of this book. Like, we didn't mess around and just like, you know, I think a lot of us really got a chance to do something cool with this. And the next time we do something like this, I'm sure it'll be great, but it won't be the same.
- [53:12]
Joe Vardon
No, right, right. Both of you said is. Is so correct. And just, just being able to, to lift up people like Oscar Robertson, who's again, been forgotten. And, you know, Oscar Robertson has touched. Oscar Robertson touches every part of the modern NBA. Every single part of it. From from free agency to, to super teams to all of it. He touched all of those eras. He touched. He's created. He's part of all of those eras. You know, I got to. I had never met Bob Pettit before. I was doing the Will chapter and I talked to Bob Pettit about Wilt Chamberlain and I just, was just sitting there, slack jaw. Bob Pettit I'm talking to. This is amazing. You know, like, and just to talk to guys, like to talk to people about Sam Jones. I just, you just are blown away by the connection to your point. Both of your points. Like, they're still here. A lot of them are still here. And the fact that we were able to touch so many of them directly to get their reminiscence about the game and the league. I have one rule about people. If you like basketball, I like you. If you like the NBA, I like you. That's it. We can coexist. Because that's my line of demarcation. Because I couldn't. I sucked at playing. I was terrible at play. I couldn't do anything. But I love the game, Always love the game. And to be a part of this has been a joy to get back to that word again. And I just, I'm so happy that the people that were contributing to this book felt that same sense of joy because it's, it's, it's a wonderful game. It's a. Without getting too metaphorical, it, it is, it is the best of what we can be if we decide to do stuff together. Like, like you can really do amazing things if you do them together. And basketball kind of really touches that because it's only five people and it's. But those five people can do amazing things together if they put their mind to it and they sacrifice for one another. So on that sort of happy note, like, I think it's time to get out. Thanks guys. Thank you for this. This was great, great discussion. And once again, books out there buy it. Put my kids through college. Thank you.
- [55:59]
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- [56:26]
Trisha Hershberger
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- [56:54]
Joe Vardon
Man, look at that return of that old king, man. Oh, wow. Emotional.
- [56:59]
Andrew Schlect
King of the Hill is back.
- [57:01]
Joe Vardon
They got a Bob's in the dirt. Oh, that's Boba.
- [57:04]
Andrew Schlect
World has changed, dad.
- [57:06]
Joe Vardon
Bobby wants to bring that new girl over for dinner. The Vegas. What the hell am I supposed to feed her? Can't we just put some grass in a bowl?
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Joe Vardon
Ready to make some memories, dad? Let's freaking go.
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Capital One Bank Guy
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