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- [00:01]
Ben Green
Hi, this is Ben Green from the Athletic fc. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.
- [00:35]
Esper Henny
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- [01:00]
Zena Kaeda
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- [02:23]
Mike Vorkanov
Good morning indeed. It's great here in New York City.
- [02:27]
Esper Henny
Yeah, it's wonderful.
- [02:28]
Zena Kaeda
There you go. I'm sure the vibes are good. S. How are you feeling now? 20 in the Eastern Conference finals, New York goes up. What'd you think about the game last
- [02:38]
Esper Henny
night, man, it was like a Josh Hart redemption tour. You. You know, the. The way that he responded after a slow game one. And honestly, a slow start to this game, too. It. He. It felt like he just wouldn't stop shooting.
- [02:53]
Mike Vorkanov
And.
- [02:54]
Esper Henny
And it eventually paid out, you know, 26 points for him. He knocked down five threes. He was unconscious.
- [03:01]
Mike Vorkanov
Vork.
- [03:01]
Esper Henny
I mean, the. The energy in msg, it feels like it relates directly to how well or how poorly Josh Hart plays. You know, like he's just, like, he matches what they do. I don't know if you notice it when you're. When you're in the arena, too.
- [03:16]
Mike Vorkanov
Yeah, he's a little bit of their energy, man. Right. Like, that's.
- [03:19]
Zena Kaeda
That's.
- [03:19]
Mike Vorkanov
He's the Knicks energy guy. He's the vibe. Check for MSG during Knicks games. Game one, he was doing very poorly, actually. I mean, arguably got played off the floor. That's when the Knicks start going good, and this time he starts hitting the shots. Five threes.
- [03:34]
Esper Henny
What?
- [03:34]
Mike Vorkanov
Let me scroll up real quick. I mean, Cleveland altogether out of 11 from three. Yeah. And Cleveland hit nine. Three. So that's not good. If Josh Hart nearly matches you 3 for 3 as a team, that's the kind of night it was for Cleveland.
- [03:48]
Esper Henny
It was. Yeah.
- [03:49]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, so I want to. I want to set the table really quickly. Josh hart contributes those 26 points. That leads to New York defeating Cleveland 10993. They are now 20 in this series. They're about to go to Cleveland, which we know Cleveland does pretty well at home. They're 6 and 1 in the playoffs. They on at, you know, at home, 2 and 7 on the road. So you imagine that they're going to try and revive something, but they have to answer for the fact that New York likes to do a lot of different things. Josh Hart stepped up. We've seen Mikhail Bridges step up. You put all your attention on Jalen Brunson. Oh, he reminds you that he's not just a scorer, Mike, he's also a facilitator. Ends up with 14 assists. Seven of 16 field goals leads to 19 points. But I really think the shape shifting of not only Josh Hart but also Jalen Brunson was a big factor for New York.
- [04:41]
Mike Vorkanov
Yeah, look, absolutely. I think, you know, if. If series are cat and mouse games, this was the Knicks adjustment to the Cavaliers. Adjustment. Right. The Cavs started throwing two at the ball, trying to get Brunson off the ball. You know, I asked Jared Allen about that. They said their preference is to have somebody else do it right, than Jalen Brunson, which is I totally reasonable opinion, especially after you get burned for 38 points in a loss. And it was funny. Somebody asked Jalen Brunson during his press conference, like, what, you know, like, were you looking for Josh Hart off those roles or off the screens? And he's like, he was just open, right? Like, it was a pretty easy read for him. The Cavs decided, hey, this is going to be the guy who beats us. And then unfortunately, it was the guy who beat them. Right? So this was what the Cavaliers wanted and essentially they were doomed by their own strategy.
- [05:30]
Esper Henny
It's crazy that you look at this Knicks box score and five guys in double digits. You know, everybody kind of contributed offensively. And then you look on the other side for the Cavs, and sure, there's four guys in double digits, but it didn't feel like it was as, as spread out and as, as even. And I think that's a look at the approach for both teams. Like as every guy on the Knicks, at least for their starting lineup, can put the ball down on the floor, make decisions, make reads, score the ball at times, shoot the ball, whatever. But like, they can make decisions with the ball in their hands. Of course, they're run by Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns, but for the Cavs, it's only James Harden and Donovan Mitchell. And even when Evan Mobley was, was feeling it early in this game, he had 10 points in the first quarter. They completely went away from that. So I feel like they, the Cavs are kind of searching for their process. Vork, I don't know if there was anything post game in terms of are they, are they believing in their process over the first two games? Do they, do they still trust in what they're doing or, or is it something else? Are they still searching?
- [06:36]
Mike Vorkanov
No, I mean, look, they are very happy with their process. Kenny Atkinson harped on that. Donovan Mitchell even harped on that more than the head coach did. Jared Allen said it like they are happy with the shots they're getting. They were happy with the shots they were forcing in game one. They, they are, they're content with the process. It has only happened to just lead them astray, right? They're down 20 in this series, which is, you know, the kind of the problem there. If the process doesn't pay off. So that's going to be half, you know, that's going to be something they have to figure out. But look, you know, I think Don Mitchell said Something to the effect of like, you know, our offense was bad because we missed the shots. Right. Which is kind of like a, hey, it's a shooter's league type of analogy. And I get it to some degree. Sam Merrill's a pretty good shooter. He went, I think, 07 from three. Max Drus was like one to three. Jalen Tyson might've been like, oh, of three, like they had some really bad shots. I think the bigger problem, you know, sure, maybe they hit a few more threes and this game goes differently. The bigger problem was, like, Donovan Mitchell didn't look like himself for most of the game. You know, most of his points were in the second half. They're already down. He didn't seem to have that pop. He said he's healthy. He said, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great. When I asked him if he is in fact great. And James Harden, you know, kind of started running the show in the third quarter and that's when things kind of went kerplunk there for Cleveland. So they have to figure that out. Evan Mobley had a great first half. I think he was pointless and shotless in the second half, if I remember off the top of my head. Yeah. And Jared Allen didn't get the ball enough either. He was playing pretty well. So they have to figure that out. Like the whole doing banjo situation with Harden and Mitchell didn't work out. They didn't get the ball enough to, you know, the interior where they were really doing well in the first half and getting those points at the rim and also getting the Knicks into foul trouble. So there are a number of issues for them. So, you know, even if the threes start falling, it's not as if it's faultless otherwise.
- [08:27]
Zena Kaeda
So that makes me want to turn the attention to Cleveland because right now New York is consistently putting all of their fingerprints, their identity into these games. They're running in transition. They're be. They're winning the, you know, fast break points. They're winning the rebounding. We're watching, you know, Carl Anthony Towns put on masterclasses of how to rebound efficiently and then get the ball up to his guards. And to get offensive going or offenses going. We're also seeing them go on these runs s, these unanswered, double digigit runs. Now this is two games in which the Knicks have done that. Game one, obviously Cleveland gave up that 22 point lead. That was the game they were supposed to steal. And now you see New York going on another 18 point unanswered run in the third quarter. And this to me is where you're starting to see, okay, Donovan says he's okay, but that pop isn't there and that explosiveness and that really unique and star like performance that you need in a third quarter when your team is, you know, on the cusp of going again, going underwater against a team like New York that's putting the ball in the basket. Yeah, we're not getting that and we're not seeing that out of, out of Donovan. So I'm curious with the bigs that they have Evan Mobley, Jared Allen finding a way to make offense run through them so that Donovan and James can have a little bit more rest time because we know they're pressuring them hard. Is this something that we might see Kenny Atkinson, you know, try to shift to in game three?
- [10:02]
Mike Vorkanov
I mean, it's hard. You know, I, Mobley's not really. He's like, the way I look at him is he's like a playmaker off the catch, basically. Like he catches it on the move and he does some stuff. I think he did that a number of the series. I don't know if you can just kind of give him the ball and have him run pick and roll and, or just find a way to create for himself. Obviously Jared Allen is not at all right. So they still need Harden and, and Mitchell to facilitate. I, you know, I, I'd argue to your point, like they need to do a better job of finding Mobley so he can finish finding Allen so he can finish. And that's where it kind of really dried up. And I think that opens up like the threes that Mobley was hitting in the first half. Right. Like I think he hit two or two threes, I want to say, to start the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to start the game. And so like, and then he started to feel it and that's, you know, when those two guys are going like, that's when the Knicks get in trouble because now they're getting, their guys are getting into foul trouble, you know, leads to kind of an add on effect. And so those are like almost multiplier points because then more good things come from them. I, you know, like the Knicks have done a pretty good job on Harden and on, on Mitchell. It's clear Harden is at his best as a facilitator, but things just kind of don't work quite the same way. And the Knicks have been able to kind of contain James Harden one on one. Right. They haven't had to trap him and he's such a smart player who can, like, pass out of those traps, and when he's getting blitzed and create four on three situations, they've been able to get to win these games without having to do that. And so Cleveland, maybe two days, things, you know, they get. They rest a little bit, they get home, get in the cold tub or whatever fancy sports performance equipment they use now, and, like, everyone feels better. Um, but, you know, those. Those are the adjustments they got to figure out.
- [11:44]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, a little. Normatech for sure will go.
- [11:46]
Mike Vorkanov
Normatech.
- [11:46]
Zena Kaeda
And, you know, for clarity, more sponsorship
- [11:50]
Esper Henny
for the NBA Daily normatech.
- [11:52]
Mike Vorkanov
Listen, listen, listen.
- [11:53]
Zena Kaeda
We're trying. We're trying, okay, Trying to get the money. We're trying to get the money. But, like, send me one.
- [11:58]
Mike Vorkanov
I need one.
- [11:59]
Zena Kaeda
We all do. With all this traveling we're doing. We all do. I more so mean like, not because, for example, Mike Brown says in the post game, you know, he loved the fact that they sprayed the ball in the first game. They got nine sprays. It went inside the paint, got it out. And you saw that happen where, you know, Brunson's getting in paint and he's getting the ball out. And even when it got to Josh Hart, he got seven assists off of that, right where the ball went to him. And maybe he made the extra pass. But I more so mean Evan Mobley, not necessarily being the playmaker, but the offense, focusing on them. Right. Finding a way to run running sets for them.
- [12:35]
Esper Henny
Yeah.
- [12:36]
Zena Kaeda
Setting things up where they're the focal point of the offensive outcome. S. Like, I. I'm. You've been watching them all season long, just as we all have. Like, there are moments where Evan Mobley does have these pop games, and they're kind of like residuals that he's getting offensive rebounds, you know, getting on the glass. But is there a way that they can highlight Evan Mobley and Jared Allen a better way in game three?
- [13:01]
Esper Henny
Yeah, I mean, I. Especially during these playoffs, I feel like teams have. Have learned that Jared Allen is the guy that James Harden likes to run pick and rolls. And so I think, for the most part, you're seeing teams understand how to take that away. And. And Allen has had, like, a couple of very, very impressive playoff performances, especially in game Sevens, you know, game seven versus the Raptors, Game seven versus the Pistons, but overall, like, a pretty uneven one generally. And I think that's because teams are catching on that James Harden loves to run pick and roll with Jared Allen. The Evan Mobley side of things, to me, it's More they've been waiting for him to be an offensive hub of sorts. And there are games where he is aggressive like he was to start this one, but then that, that energy and aggression, it wanes. And I, I think capturing that is, is something probably more Evan Mobley related than Cleveland Cavaliers related at this point. They have tried multiple different avenues whether it's running him with bench lineups, asking him to be the guy that brings up the ball. It. The reality changes when James Harden is on the floor. And I just, I don't know if you can do that mid playoff series. I will say I think Mobley has had a pretty good playoff run like before this to start the playoffs. We were talking about how the 2021 draft is like a focal point of these post of this postseason between like Kate Cunningham and Scotty Barnes having really loud series and Sengun and Jalen Johnson probably not having the best postseason runs. I think Mobley has quietly been really good in the postseason at just doing what he does best, which is very, very good. Defense, offense in a pinch in certain moments and then playing off of other guys. He just, he isn't the guy that everybody wants him to be. He is who he is, which is like defensive player of the year caliber player, all starish caliber offensive player. But is he, is he the. The 1B on a championship team? I don't necessarily think so. I think that's why they've brought in James Harden here to be more of a facilitator, to give him easy shots and easy opportunities. Those guys just haven't been able to do that, at least for the first two games of the series.
- [15:16]
Zena Kaeda
Let's talk about that. James Harden, OG and Anobi, Mikhail Bridges were really making things difficult for him, closing up his passing lanes. He only had two assists on the night. What's the answer with James Harden, not only offensively, but particularly what they're doing, what Cleveland wants to do in terms of protecting him on defense. It feels like Kenny Atkinson is like, no, you gotta go guard as opposed to maybe pre switching and trying to, you know, cover up for the fact that sometimes Harden looks like he's on an island a little bit out there.
- [15:47]
Mike Vorkanov
Yeah, I mean it's, it's really hard, you know, having him guard in isolation against Brunson, not going to work. Right. You know, and having him, you know, what they tried today and a number of other times in the fourth quarter, which also did not work is having, you know, him on OGN and OBI and then they get two on the ball, because obviously, like, Brunson will find N and Obi, pull him into the screen, pull him into the action. And then Harden is the second guy shadowing Brunson, you know, the second of those two defenders on the ball. And that's a problem too, because now, as Brunson reads that and inevitably tries to get the ball to, say, Anunoby, right, because he sees the 4 on 3 situation and an open shooter, it's now Harden who has to re respond, recover, and try to get there. And that's not a good place for him to be either because now he's flying around in space, except he's not flying around that fast. And like, there's one one three with Ognobi. I think it was his third three of the night or fourth three of the night. Like, Harden was recovering and he just got like, not there. He ended up three feet away, four feet away, and he was just in
- [16:49]
Esper Henny
the middle of nowhere.
- [16:50]
Mike Vorkanov
And OG had an open 3, but he was so scared of OG catching and, you know, putting the ball on the floor and getting by him that he just ended up giving an open shot instead. And so this is the kind of predicament that the Cavs are in, right? Like, Harden can't guard one on one. He's not equipped to, you know, blitz and recover. So then what do you do? You keep trying to hide him. And really this only works if Josh Hard is on the floor, because then there is a place to kind of make this work defensively for the Cavs. But then if Josh Hart is hitting threes, then you're just screwed essentially, right? Like that's, that's how it worked for their defense today. Maybe there's, maybe there's something that they think of that can mitigate this. But the problem then is James Harden is not providing enough offensively either. Yet, you know, I think he was 6 to 15 tonight. Only two assists, as you said, Zena, like, he's not facilitating. He's not scoring enough. He's not shooting the ball well. And there are also the defensive issues.
- [17:46]
Esper Henny
Okay, Vork, so we, we know there's a big difference between road Cleveland Cavaliers and home Cleveland Cavaliers in these playoffs. They're 6 and 1 at home. They're 2 and 7 on the road. Is this series over? Even though I give you those, those stats said over?
- [18:05]
Mike Vorkanov
I, you know, what's the old, what's the old saying? It's not. Series hasn't started till someone wins on the road or whatever. That's right. I, yeah, but no I mean, listen, the Cavs are still down too. Oh, I understand the splits. I think the Knicks are the best team they faced this entire postseason. Maybe things really are different when the Knicks show up in Cleveland and Drew Carey sitting on Celebrity Row and scaring everybody. But I, I don't know. I, I, you know, I think the Knicks were the favorite in the series. They've taken a 20 lead. I think they remain the heavy favorites. Like, do you guys feel like home court advantage is what saves the Cavs here?
- [18:43]
Esper Henny
They do play different.
- [18:46]
Zena Kaeda
He said they need to get their legs under them. And there, there is something to that, that when you go home and you're on your home court, you get a little bit of a juice. Now, do I think they have enough juice to get two games at home? Absolutely not. Yeah, I think they can get one more or not one more. They can get one in this series and then New York will have to, is going to just nicely close out
- [19:09]
Esper Henny
the gentleman sweep, as they say. Yeah, I, I think, I agree. I mean, it's, it's kind of weird because they've been in this situation before. Like this is exactly what happened. Oh yeah, they dug out too, you know, but I, I do think this one is over. I wonder how much the Cavs can push them, especially because as you said, Vork, you know, Donovan Mitchell is saying he's not injured, but he does look like he's not 100%, especially mobility wise, especially in this game. In the second half, it felt like they were hunting him defensively, understanding that he wasn't at 100%. And these games are now every other day. You know, there isn't a two game or two day gap to give these guys some Norma Tech and get them feeling good. That's where I think this series becomes a really, it's tough. It's a war of attrition at this point. You know, whoever is just the healthiest ends up winning.
- [20:04]
Zena Kaeda
It's interesting that you say that because that's pretty much where Western Conference finals are right now.
- [20:08]
Esper Henny
Yeah, exactly.
- [20:08]
Zena Kaeda
It's about to become. Because of the pace of that series.
- [20:12]
Esper Henny
Yeah.
- [20:12]
Mike Vorkanov
And look, and that's kind of the flaw in Kenny Atkinson's thinking of, hey, we get some time to rest, is that you get the same amount of time between these, this next games that you've had between game seven and one and two. Like, and you get to fly and you have to fly on top of it. Right. So I, it's not as if the schedule is in their favor for rest.
- [20:31]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. Before we get you out of here, Mike, we appreciate you taking your time to break the game down, but I want to just get a vibe and a sense. What is it like in New York right now?
- [20:41]
Mike Vorkanov
All right, let me try to think of an analogy. I mean, listen, the Knicks, when they are good, run the city, right? There's all, all apologies to the Brooklyn Nets, but this is, for the most part, a one team city. And basically it's. When the Knicks are good, it is essentially like, you know how, like, you have friends who get really drunk and then they're just the happiest people you've ever met? Like, that's what the city is like, essentially. They are four beers in and two games away from the finals. And that's what everyone.
- [21:11]
Esper Henny
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:12]
Mike Vorkanov
And that. That's the city right now. And I. I fear that not only is the country not ready for what it's like if the Knicks make the final. I feel like New York City might not be ready for it. It's going to be like if the Knicks make the finals.
- [21:25]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, Yeah. I had a sense of it. Just, you could see it on the broadcast. All the celebrities, all the alumni sit in courtside. It looks like it's a fun time to be in New York. And not only apologies to the Brooklyn Nets, New York Liberty didn't win against the Valkyries last night either. Why are we apologizing to the Brooklyn Netflix?
- [21:44]
Esper Henny
The Brooklyn Nets need to win games. Sorry.
- [21:47]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, it's fair. It's fair. It's absolutely true. It's absolutely true. New York Knicks are running. Running things, but we'll see if they run things on Saturday because Saturday is the next hundo matchup against the Cavs for game three. Mike, appreciate you joining us, buddy.
- [22:01]
Mike Vorkanov
Thanks for having me.
- [22:02]
Zena Kaeda
Guys,
- [22:06]
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Zena Kaeda
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- [25:48]
Ben Green
hi, this is Ben Green from the Athletic FC. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.
- [26:30]
Zena Kaeda
All right. S before we go, I feel like it's been a little bit unfair that Dave and I get to keep the Western Conference finals in these conversations. So far it's been electric, it's been insane, it's been alienable the way that we've been watching Wemby put in work. But then also OKC coming right back in game two with Shay Gildis Alexander kind of reminding all of us, hold on. Still the MVP over here. So I was like, I kind of want to hear what your thoughts are because I know you've probably been brewing. You've been in the group chat with your thoughts, of course. But I just wanted to know as you're watching this, we know tonight the series moves to San Antonio for game three. The series is split 1 1. There are some injuries that have been cleared up and you know, I'll allow you to break that down for us. But I just also want to hear what you think about this series so far and are you on the okay season or are you fully transitioned over to the Spurs?
- [27:23]
Esper Henny
Listen, I'm Canadian. How am I not going to be able to root for, you know, like it's, it's hard not to. I will say the spurs are, spurs are very, very fun. They, they make a compelling case to root for the San Antonio Spurs. But I will say I appreciate you giving me this platform because, yes, I have been itching to talk about OKC versus San Antonio and it is like all time basketball. It's genuinely one of the best series that I've ever watched and I think it is encapsulation of modern basketball, like the high pace, energy, the ball pressure, defensively, how important a paint touch is. I mean, the Thunder basically can score in the paint when Wemby, yeah, the youth, the Thunder can't score when Wemby is on the floor in the paint and then they score a bunch when he's off. Same thing for the Thunder, the way that they generate turnovers with their point of attack defense and Alex Caruso. It really has been like every single team in the NBA. All 28 other teams are trying to copy what the spurs and Thunder do. And, and you see that in like the Portland Trailblazers. You see that in the Houston Rockets. You see that in the Toronto Raptors and Miami Heat and a bunch of other teams that like take bits and pieces of what these teams do. The Pistons, right, probably the best example of this. But these two teams are the very best at it. And to watch them show down in this, like not even David versus Goliath, like Goliath versus Goliath versus Goliath, right, where both of these teams are just so dominant in what they do. And honestly they're built to play each other. So that's the part that's been awesome to watch. You mentioned the injuries. The fact that Jalen Williams is, is at least day to day moving forward when it comes to the Thunder, that's a big question. A.J. mitchell, we'll see. He also got dinged up in game two. We'll see how available he is. And then for the spurs it's de' Aaron Fox and Dylan Harper and how questionable those guys are. I mean they haven't had Fox for the first two games. But Harper, as you know, and I know you're such a big fan of Dylan Harper too, but like the lift he's, he's had as an on ball scorer is, is really, really important for this team. Like I don't know how much Jordan McLaughlin minutes the spurs are going to have to rely on and who else they have to go to to get some gu minutes because you know, they're kind of dropping like flies at this point. It's, it's Steph Castle and nobody else other than Jordan McLaughlin. So injuries are impacting the series. I could probably talk for 30 minutes about this series. I would love to get your thoughts on this series. How do you feel about how this series transitions to game three in San Antonio? They are also a great crowd. You know, we'll see if, if we get to see them in the finals, but San Antonio really does it good at home as well. What do you think's gonna happen in game three?
- [30:17]
Zena Kaeda
Ooh, well, I think once again the fans are gonna win. I said this after game one. It doesn't matter who came up with the win after game one, the fans are winning because this is incredible basketball, as you clearly laid out. I do think this is just so predicated on whether Dylan Harper and de' Aaron Fox are available for game three. And right now, Dylan Harper has that right adductor strain. He is questionable and unlikely to play. When you think about what Dylan Harper does in terms of putting pressure on the rim, methodically getting to his spots, and kind of almost being like the foil Jalen Williams, right, The person that gets into the paint that that blows by the perimeter. Defenders like Stephen Castle absolutely can do that. But we're seeing Dylan Harper doing it with less turnovers, with more poise with the basketball on average. Right. And so you need that size. You need that size on defense, but you particularly need it on offense. And he's so. He's. We mentioned this on our last pod talking about this. He's much more critical to what San Antonio wants to do than, you know, A.J. mitchell or even Jalen Williams. A.J. mitchell, good news. He's cleared from the injury report. He had a right thigh contusion.
- [31:37]
Esper Henny
Wonderful. There you go.
- [31:38]
Zena Kaeda
He's probably going to be available. And he picked up right. Game one, he was not great. Game two, he picked back up, was able to put the ball in the basket and. Right. I feel like all of the momentum now is in OKC's hands because of the absence of a huge ball, ball handler. But also table setter and Darren Fox, that's also veteran presence that you're not getting because you didn't quite get it from Keldon Johnson in Game two. You know, Harrison Barnes is on the bench, like you're not getting. You don't have a ton of veteran presence out there for them. And in the moments where OKC is going to go on a run on the road in their home court, like, you need someone to be like, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let's back this up, let's set things up, let's slow down the pace. I know we like to run, but let's do it in a way that's intentional and is clean basketball. And sometimes that's what we saw in Game 2, particularly with Stefan Castle. 20 turnovers over the first two games. It's not you. It's great that he's putting up buckets and dunking on Isaiah Hartenstein the way he is and, you know, being able to assist. But if Victor Emanyama doesn't have a clean game like he did in game one, those type of things are glaring. Right. The Turnovers and the mistakes on defense and, you know, not being able to answer runs, those things become glaring. So you. You see just how dependent the spurs can be on Victor women. Yama just being dominant, whether it's offensively or defensively. Right now.
- [33:09]
Esper Henny
I wonder if I. I was just
- [33:12]
Zena Kaeda
asking you a question. Go ahead.
- [33:14]
Esper Henny
Okay. I. I mean, the only thing, when you were mentioning, like, Wemby and. And the guys who need to step up, I'm kind of like, will they lean double big now? Because the Thunder went double big, right, with Hartenstein and Chad, like Will spurs, instead of leaning on their guards, say, hey, we'll go big with you, and we'll play Luke Cornett and Wemby together more often. And, you know, obviously that will help with the size issues or. Or maybe even dealing with the physicality that OKC was throwing out there in game two. I know a lot of people talked about the. The physicality Hartenstein brought to Wemby, but, you know, Cornett can kind of provide that same thing to Chet and to Hartenstein. Maybe they just roll with that and go double big. You know, have obviously Vassell and Champagne and Castle still there. But then Wemby and Cornett are the two guys inside. Maybe that's the way that they try to counter missing a couple of their guards. What do you think?
- [34:10]
Zena Kaeda
It's a great point. And the only thing that I would say is that the spurs had that as kind of like a bonus aspect of their game throughout the regular season, whereas OKC did that as, like, a factor. Like, this was like a mode that.
- [34:23]
Esper Henny
That was their, like, preset.
- [34:25]
Zena Kaeda
That was a. That was a preset thing that they did. So they know how. With the two, you know, bigs on the floor. That's actually their preferred mode. I don't know that the spurs still know how to get into the seams of defenses and to beat that, like, matchup zone situation that OKC has been doing. Excuse me, man, mess that up. I don't know if they know how to run that matchup zone that they've been doing against OKC as well. When Luke Cornett and Wemby are out on the floor, right, because they like Wemby being out on the. On the back line of that defense. But oftentimes you see Wemby being like, Dylan Harper, get out there. Vassell, get out there. Now he's having to be the person that's also having to get out there. You want Wemby by the basket, or do you want Luke Cornette running The backline of that matchup zone. It just feels like that could be a little bit of an issue in terms of how OKC will probably expose that and take advantage of that. The other thing that is interesting for me in terms of going double big, is there now enough space for your driving guards?
- [35:31]
Esper Henny
So I'm just looking at the numbers really quickly. Can you get. I mean, just. Just throw it out there. How many minutes do you think, in the playoffs Luke Cornett and Victor Wembanyama have shared on the floor together? It actually. It will shock you. Maybe it won't. Maybe if you're a Spurs fan, you're like, this is an easy answer, but it will shock you.
- [35:51]
Zena Kaeda
I feel like it's 10 minutes.
- [35:54]
Esper Henny
It's one minute.
- [35:56]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. Yeah. Like, I mean, they don't play together.
- [35:59]
Esper Henny
They played a single minute together.
- [36:01]
Zena Kaeda
That's actually in the playoff. I knew it was low, but that's still pretty shocking.
- [36:05]
Esper Henny
It's. It's very shocking. I mean, in the regular season, they only played 113 minutes together, and the spurs lost their minutes by a lot. They had a -9 net rating when Wemby and Cornette were on the floor together. So maybe that's just something they don't like to go to.
- [36:19]
Mike Vorkanov
But I don't know.
- [36:20]
Esper Henny
Maybe. Maybe the injuries forces their hand. They've got to do something.
- [36:23]
Zena Kaeda
They've got to do something because, yeah, the Mark Dagnault's approach of jamming up Victor Wembanyama on all of okc's drives and just. I mean, having Isaiah Hartenstein basically be a hanger just hanging all over Wemby all night long, it was incredibly frustrating. And they needed something else to offset the fact that the basket was, you know, not being able to be capitalized on, because Wendy looked.
- [36:48]
Esper Henny
Maybe Carter Bryant, you know, they have guys to go to. Maybe Harrison Barnes.
- [36:52]
Zena Kaeda
And I feel like that. Carter Bryant, Harrison Barnes. I particularly am thinking, like, offensively, the spacing is what's interesting. Carter Bryant can't hit that outside shot. Harrison Barnes has obviously hit that outside shot. I'm mostly thinking about the defensive aspect, that shell defense that they have when they go kind of boxing one. When they kind of do that, like, matchup zone, it is because they are so. They've got the capability to have those perimeter guards just move and recover. And, like, just every single shot feels contested for okc. And that's where you're like, carter Bryant could, I think, pop in and do that easily. Because he did. Yeah, replicate that a little bit and replicate that for sure. I just, I don't know what that's going to look like long term over the course of a game if Luke Cornell is the guy that's doing that.
- [37:41]
Esper Henny
You mentioned Harper. Offensively, like Harper is also one of their best defenders. Like, that's the, that's the other part to this is like the combination of Castle and Harper at the point of attack, that's what really made SGA struggle in game one. Of course Carter Bryant was a big part of that, but just you need more bodies. And I, I wonder at the same time, like the Thunder have learned how to win without Jalen Williams. Like they kind of know their identity without them. You know, they don't have to think on the fly. They're like, all right, cool, this is the way we play now. And it's, it's more A.J. mitchell, it's more Jared McCain. It's, it's more creation opportunities for Shea in different spots of the floor. They're kind of a well oiled machine at this point without J Dub, as crazy as it sounds. So we'll see. Game three is going to be fascinating.
- [38:30]
Zena Kaeda
It's, it's not that crazy ass like they went 39 and 10 without J Dub in the regular season. They won all six playoff games that he was not available for. Right. Like this. And it's not a knock on who J Dub is to this system. It's really just a boost of how good the system is. It's a boost of, you know, it's how great the structural stability of this roster is, is that Mark Dagnault can go 10 deep and the spurs just don't have that advantage. Or not even that advantage. I would say that luxury. Yeah, it's a luxury.
- [39:04]
Esper Henny
Yeah. I mean, look, with the injuries, they don't, they, they don't have that advantage. They don't have that look, it, it's just, it's not part of what they are. They still have some unproven guys and I think, yeah, we'll see how they, they react at home. Because that's the other part. Like role players play better at home. That's, that's the end of it. Is Champagne going to knock down more shots? Is Visell going to have a big game? We'll see game three. It's going to be all time. I've loved it. It's, it's one of the best. Thank you for allowing me to be on my soapbox for this.
- [39:31]
Zena Kaeda
It was for sure. And I know I'm excited for the drums to come out San Antonio that first game of the playoffs when they had the Fiesta lineup of the the shirts. I'm very curious.
- [39:41]
Esper Henny
I think the Fiesta to come back.
- [39:43]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, I hope it does. I hope it does. Well, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I'm happy we got those out of the group chat and into the ether letting folks know. And I appreciate Mike Vo for joining us as well. Thanks to Esper Henny for all of your thoughts on Game two, but also the Western Conference Finals. I'm Zena Caida thanking you for joining us on the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.
- [40:07]
Mike Vorkanov
Thanks for listening.
- [40:08]
Esper Henny
Make sure you hit the subscribe or
- [40:09]
Mike Vorkanov
follow button so you never miss an episode.
- [40:11]
Esper Henny
If you enjoyed it, drop a like
- [40:13]
Mike Vorkanov
leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us.
- [40:27]
Ben Green
Hi, this is Ben Green from the Athletic fc. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.
- [41:01]
Esper Henny
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Mike Vorkanov
Par l' italiano?
- [41:29]
Zena Kaeda
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