Knicks fire Tom Thibodeau

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily – Episode: "Knicks Fire Tom Thibodeau"
Release Date: June 4, 2025
Hosts: Dave DeFore, Zena Keda, James Edwards
Guest: Fred Katz

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Athletic NBA Daily, hosts Dave DeFore, Zena Keda, and James Edwards delve into the surprising decision by the New York Knicks to part ways with head coach Tom Thibodeau after five highly successful seasons. The discussion offers in-depth analysis, varied perspectives, and expert insights into the implications of this significant move for the franchise and the broader NBA landscape.

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Announcement: Knicks Part Ways with Tom Thibodeau [02:32]

Dave DeFore opens the episode by announcing the unexpected firing of Tom Thibodeau, who had led the Knicks to their best season in over two decades, securing the third seed in the Eastern Conference and advancing to the conference finals. The hosts express surprise given Thibodeau’s track record of stability and success within the organization.

Dave DeFore [03:31]:

"This was the best season that they've had this century."

Analyzing the Decision: Scapegoating or Strategic Upgrade? [03:31 – 05:19]

James Edwards shares his astonishment at the decision, highlighting Thibodeau’s role in transforming the Knicks from a struggling franchise into a competitive contender. He questions whether the organization is scapegoating Thibodeau for perceived shortcomings or genuinely seeking to elevate the team's performance further.

James Edwards [04:10]:

"For five years, Tom Thibodeau brought stability, he brought respect, and he brought winning back to New York."

Zena Keda concurs, critiquing the franchise's communication regarding the firing. She suggests that the official statement lacked substantial reasoning, leading to feelings of frustration and confusion among fans and analysts alike.

Zena Keda [05:19]:

"It’s not you, it’s me. It’s like a bit of a gaslighting situation because you can't find in that statement an explanation as to why you're moving on."

Exploring Reasons Behind the Firing [05:19 – 09:23]

The conversation shifts to possible reasons for the Knicks’ decision. While acknowledging Thibodeau’s defensive prowess, the hosts discuss the team's offensive struggles and lack of experimentation with lineups during critical moments, such as the Eastern Conference finals.

James Edwards [07:07]:

"Maybe the suits thought that this team should be better than 51 wins... he should have got a year to at least get another run with this team."

Zena emphasizes the broader NBA trend of emphasizing immediate results over long-term development, questioning where this shift originated.

Zena Keda [07:07]:

"I'm trying to figure out where's this expedition that the NBA overall has had recently on results over the process."

Potential Replacement Candidates [09:23 – 11:36]

Dave and James brainstorm possible coaching replacements, weighing the pros and cons of seasoned coaches versus first-time head coaches. Names like Michael Malone, James Borrego, and Sean Sweeney are mentioned, each bringing unique strengths and potential challenges to the Knicks' strategy.

Dave DeFore [09:30]:

"Maybe he wasn't willing to do that. Maybe that's what it came down to."

James Edwards [10:12]:

"But you are going to say that a first-year coach potentially could take this team over the top. Like maybe like that's a, that's a risk to take."

Front Office Decisions and Future Outlook [11:36 – 12:10]

The hosts critique the Knicks' recent front office decisions, including significant trades and high-stakes moves. They stress the importance of making informed, franchise-altering decisions that align with long-term success.

James Edwards [12:10]:

"These are franchise-altering decisions and they have to be right."

Maximizing Team Potential Under New Leadership [12:10 – 14:01]

Zena and James discuss what a new coach could bring to the team, particularly in maximizing the talents of key players like Jalen Brunson, Carl Anthony Towns, and OG Anunoby. They debate whether a new leadership can enhance the team's offensive and defensive strategies to secure a championship.

Zena Keda [12:22]:

"What can they bring to this team that's not already there?"

James Edwards [12:22]:

"I think defensively there's just going to naturally be issues."

Guest Segment: Fred Katz on Thunder vs. Pacers Finals [16:29 – 33:31]

Transitioning from the Knicks' coaching changes, the episode features Fred Katz, an esteemed NBA reporter, who provides expert analysis on the upcoming Thunder vs. Pacers finals. Fred highlights the contrasting playing styles of both teams, emphasizing the Thunder's chaotic defense and the Pacers' elite ball control.

Fred Katz [18:36]:

"The Thunder defense is the most intentionally frantic, chaotic defense that we've seen in the NBA in a very long time."

The discussion covers strategic matchups, potential game outcomes, and the strengths each team brings to the finals. Fred predicts a closely contested series, highlighting key players and tactical decisions that could influence the series' outcome.

Fred Katz [32:08]:

"I think OKC is the better team. I think OKC has been the best team all season."

Concluding Thoughts [33:31 – 34:11]

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reiterate their predictions for the Thunder vs. Pacers finals and reflect on the swift developments within the Knicks' organization. They emphasize the need for the Knicks to carefully navigate their next steps to build on their recent successes.

Zena Keda [33:17]:

"I think it's going to be five, six. But the reason why I say five, I don't think it's going to be five in any of those games or blowouts."

Dave DeFore [34:11]:

"This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us."

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Key Takeaways

• Unexpected Coaching Change: The Knicks' decision to fire Tom Thibodeau, despite his successful tenure, has sparked debate about the organization's direction and priorities.

• Potential Reasons: The move may stem from the desire to achieve immediate championship success, though Thibodeau's contributions to stability and performance are highly regarded.

• Replacement Challenges: Identifying a suitable replacement is critical, with considerations between experienced coaches and first-time leaders, each bringing different dynamics to the team.

• Strategic Moves: The Knicks have made significant front office decisions recently, indicating a commitment to reshaping the team’s future, though the outcomes remain uncertain.

• Finals Insight: The Thunder vs. Pacers finals promise an exciting and strategic showdown, with both teams showcasing unique strengths that could define the series' outcome.

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Notable Quotes

• Dave DeFore [03:31]:
  "This was the best season that they've had this century."

• James Edwards [04:10]:
  "Tom Thibodeau brought stability, respect, and winning back to New York."

• Zena Keda [05:19]:
  "It’s like a bit of a gaslighting situation because you can't find in that statement an explanation as to why you're moving on."

• Fred Katz [18:36]:
  "The Thunder defense is the most intentionally frantic, chaotic defense that we've seen in the NBA in a very long time."

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This episode of The Athletic NBA Daily offers a comprehensive exploration of the Knicks' strategic shift and provides listeners with nuanced perspectives on the implications of firing a successful head coach. Additionally, the expert analysis of the Thunder vs. Pacers finals enriches the discourse, delivering valuable insights for basketball enthusiasts.

Transcript

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[Dave DeFore]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for June 4, 2025. I'm Dave DeFore here with Zena Keda and James Edwards. Coming up, Tom Thibodeau is out for the Knicks. That's why James is here. So we're going to talk about it a little bit. And then Fred Katz comes by before Tom Thibodeau got fired to talk about Pacers, Thunder, foreign everybody. Good morning, guys. What's new in your world, James?

[James Edwards]

Oh, you know, just got approved for two weeks vacation about eight hours ago, was gonna knock out one more piece tough, was gonna relax, go back to the great city of Flint, Michigan and see family and friends. And it's, it's, it's like clockwork, man. When I'm covering a team every summer, there's something, there's something. I can't just have a normal summer.

[Dave DeFore]

This summer, the Knicks are going to be looking for a new coach. Tom Thibodeau out after five seasons, five extremely successful seasons, including this most recent one where they were the three seed in the east and they, you know, they lost in six in the conference finals. This was the best season that they've had this century. And James, I don't know if this was the right move or not. I don't know that we'll know if it's the right move until maybe this time next year. But it does feel like it kind of came out of nowhere because they were so successful. I mean, is, is Tom Thibodeau being scapegoated here or is this just an opportunity where maybe they see a chance to upgrade?

[James Edwards]

Yeah, I agree with you. I did not think this would happen. I was 80, 20, that he would come back. And I guess when you look at it in totality, maybe the suits thought that this team should be better than 51 wins. Maybe this suits thought that this team, even though it got to the Eastern Conference finals once Boston and Cleveland were eliminated, that it should have been represented in the Finals. This is a shock to me simply because this is an organization. For two decades that was the butt of jokes, that was, had no culture, that had no stability. And for five years, Tom Thibodeau brought stability, he brought respect, and he brought winning back to New York. And ultimately, for me, yes, there were flaws this year. This team wasn't perfect, but the fact that this guy helped bring good PR back to this franchise and the fact that this team was put together 12 hours before training camp signaled like I felt like this guy should have got a year to at least get. Get another run with this team.

[Zena Keda]

That's exactly how I feel. Particularly the emphasis on the statement. You can say you can justify reasons for why Tom Thibodeau was fired. If you're looking at the offensive rigidity, which I still think that there was more to it than most people would look at and see, you could say that he ran guys to the ground. You could say a lot of different things. But everything you just listed, James having brought them to the Eastern Conference finals for the first time since 2000, being able to literally, in that same statement that Leon Rose made to say, in five season, you brought us to the playoffs four times, you also got us for series one. You poured your heart and soul into this organization. You led us with classic professionalism. Unfortunately, we had to go a different direction. I just feel like it's a. It's not you, it's me. Like, it's like a bit of a gaslighting situation because you can't find in that statement an explanation as to why you're moving on, why you have to move in a different direction. Especially because the very first sentence was, our singular focus is winning a championship. And you fired the guy that got you the closest to competing for said championship in the last, I don't know, 50 years. So I just. I am frustrated for Tom. I am frustrated for Tom. But what I really want to know. It's one thing we've seen this before. We've seen it with Michael Malone. We've seen it with some other players, other coaches, not even just in this season, but in recent seasons. I'm trying to figure out where's this expedition that the NBA overall has had recently on results over the process. It feels as if there's so much emphasis on you need to win now or else you gotta go. Where'd that come from?

[James Edwards]

I mean, that's a great question. I think part of it's social media. I think part of it is people are too online. I think people listen to fans and media way too much. Yeah, it's. It's a situation specifically in New York, where this team, despite its imperfections, still made it to the Eastern Conference finals and grew stronger as the season went on. Yes, there were the offense. The starting group that they invested so much in wasn't good. They had a negative net rating from January 1st on, they weren't very good in the playoffs. Right. But he, this team. Jalen Brunson missed a month at the end of the year. Mitchell Robinson was gone for most of the year. I think the biggest knock, if you're going to talk about it with Tibbs, is he didn't really experiment with a five out lineup. Didn't do Jalen Brunson, Deuce McBride, OG Anunoby, Mikhail Bridges and Carl Anthony Towns. That's probably the biggest knock in terms of lineup experimentation. But give the guy another, another, give him a summer to, to stew on it. To think about it. I just. The thing that Denver did that I love so much, like the Denver story is my favorite story in recent NBA history. Like they had a coach and their core players. They kept them together for seven, eight, nine years and they finally won. They finally got over the hump. And not everything can be fixed by, by one name, by one one at one edition, by one new voice. And that was the other thing a lot of people talking about the kind of the reports are that the team needed a new voice. Well, of the core guys, Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart are the guys that have been around for a little a while and they're the biggest TIP supporters.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[James Edwards]

Everybody else that's in the core has been here for a year, a year and a half. So what, what new voice? Like, what was the time for the new voice? I just, I just think, listen tips. There was flaws this year with this team, but ultimately this franchise has not been very good for the larger part of 25 years. And I thought he deserved another year to try to rectify any type of qualms or issues that this team had this year.

[Dave DeFore]

To me it was an opportunity to maybe bolster the coaching staff around him, like bring in an offensive mind that was.

[James Edwards]

And maybe he wasn't willing to do that. Maybe that's what it came down to.

[Dave DeFore]

Maybe. Yeah. But you know, look, man, the grass is always greener, right? So where's the greener grass? You know, I believe in watering your own grass, that that creates green grass. But the Knicks, they've decided we're going to get some sod laid. So who are they looking at? You know, who are the options for them that are allegedly an upgrade on Tom Thibodeau?

[James Edwards]

So if we're, if we're going to assume that they have a greener grass candidate out there, it would be, it would be a bit of a surprise, right? Like Michael Malone's a great coach, is he any different in his approach than Tibbs?

[Dave DeFore]

No, not much. He's not going to play the young guys. He doesn't play a huge bench.

[James Edwards]

He's outspoken. I don't know if ownership will love how outspoken he is. Then you have what, James Borrego, another CAA guy, offensive mind, his defenses have been not the greatest. Hasn't had much success as a head coach. Obviously in Charlotte. There they didn't do him any favors.

[Dave DeFore]

Sure. There's this right coach pop pedigree though, comes out of that coach injury.

[James Edwards]

Yes. And then you have a guy like Taylor Jenkins, another guy that was probably a scapegoat in, in Memphis. We don't know if we know the whole story there, but kind of similar to Tibbs. Tibbs is firing. Apparently people didn't think he did enough. And then after that you're getting into first year head coaches, you're getting into Johnny Bryant, Sean Sweeney, somebody I really like. But you're going to say that a first year coach potentially could take this team over the top. Like maybe it could. Maybe like that's a, that's a risk to take. Right. Mike Inori, he's another guy in Minnesota, been with Cat, great personality, been up for many jobs, but again would be a first year head coach. So you kind of look around, you're like of the proven coaches, unless we're forgetting somebody who's out there, Jay Wright, the Villanova connection stuff for sure. Like Jay Wright was a great college coach. Does that mean he'll be a great NBA coach?

[Dave DeFore]

I keep seeing people say Dan Hurley. I just don't think that that personality works for the NBA.

[James Edwards]

I tend to agree. I tend to agree and I'm not sure it works for the Knicks. And they're, they're wanting to keep things in house. I don't know if that's, if that's conducive to that. So listen, I'll say this. I think over the last 10 months, more so than the previous four years, this front, the suits in New York have taken major risks. Trading for Mikhail Bridges, trading for Karl Anthony Towns, firing Tibbs. This is, these are franchise altering decisions and they have to be right.

[Zena Keda]

What are your thoughts of like in the new regime, someone coming in to take advantage of all of this success essentially that New York recently had. What can they bring to this team that's not already there?

[James Edwards]

Yeah, I think the big thing is maximizing the offense. They invested so much in the, in the five. Jalen Brunson, Carl Anthony Towns, OG Anunoby, Mikhail Bridges, Josh Hart giving up first round picks for basically all those big contracts for all those guys. Obviously, Josh, Jalen Brunson took a pay cut, but that. That group was not consistently good. That group struggled as the season went on. So is there a way to maximize their talents? On paper, that is a very talented starting five. Obviously they switched up the starting lineup in the Eastern Conference finals, but I would say, I think we all would agree that's their core group. And is there a way to maximize that, that collective better? I think defensively there's just going to naturally be issues. Jalen Brunson tries his ass off on defense, but there's limitations with him and Cat at the point of attack and then at the back line. Are they learning? Did they learn throughout the postseason that what Minnesota did was correct, that they need to put up more traditional five next to Towns and they played Mitchell Robinson, but with that, are you maximizing Towns because he's not playing the five on offense? Right. So I think there may be, I would assume in this decision that they think that there's more to unlock there or maybe that they're going to make moves beyond this and, and try to tinker. I just think that for a guy in Tom Thibodeau who did so much and was basically handed such a seismic piece in Karl Anthony Towns right before training camp and getting them to the Eastern Conference finals, not giving them a chance to kind of like iron out things he might have learned throughout the year, I think that's a really tough blow.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, yeah. I know they're hoping for a Doug Collins to Phil Jackson sort of upgrade or a Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr sort of upgrade. But this team doesn't have Michael Jordan or Steph Curry. And I would argue that Tom Thibodeau got all so much out of Jalen Brunson. I'm not sure that any coach is going to be able to maximize there. So it's going to be everybody else stepping up and meeting that sort of production. James, looks like you got a busy couple weeks ahead of you. I hope you enjoy it. Then I hope you actually get some vacation because I know it was a long year. Guys, stick around. We got Fred Katz to talk Thunder, Pacers finals and how the Pacers beat the Thunder.

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[Dave DeFore]

Thunder Pacers game one tomorrow night Fred Katz is here. He covers the Knicks and the entire NBA. Also one of the most plugged in Oklahoma City Thunder guys too. Fred, you know your beat Experience has run the gamut. It feels like all the NBA storylines have run through Fred Cat's notebook at some point in the last few years, man. Like Bradley Beal. Oh, yeah, that's a Fred Cats beat. And he has kind of dominated the. The trademark. How's it feel to be so in the midst of everything happening with the NBA?

[Fred Katz]

Well, it feels good to have no home at all and just jump around and move around 900 different places and cover 868 teams and. I don't know. I get paid to watch basketball. What's better than that?

[Dave DeFore]

That's pretty good.

[Fred Katz]

You must. You must have watched this team a lot. I'm like, yeah, because that's all I do. So that makes sense.

[Dave DeFore]

What's the thing that you're most excited to see in this Finals? I mean, again, it's too. The Thunder are not a surprise. We watched them get here all year, obviously 68 wins, 80 total wins as they enter the finals. The Pacers kind of came on, you know, mid season and. And have been a little bit of a Cinderella, but. But very good team, if you've been paying attention. Yeah. So what are you excited to see?

[Fred Katz]

Absolute abject franticness. I think that's exactly what we're going to see. The Thunder defense is the most intentionally frantic, chaotic defense that we've seen in the NBA in a very long time. The Pacers offense is the most intentionally frantic, chaotic offense that we've seen in the NBA in a very long time. Not saying the Pacers D offense is the best offense we've seen in a long time, but in terms of the way they play, in terms of the fact that they succeed on randomness and the Thunder defense succeeds on randomness. That and they're both elite at those sides of the court. That. That's. That's a fun basketball matchup. Like everybody wants to talk about the ratings or whatever at. That's a fun basketball matchup.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, that is.

[Fred Katz]

That is an offensive team that says we want to exceed in randomness. We want to cut and then cut and then cut some more. And it is a defense that says we want to exceed with randomness. We want to jump passing lanes, we want to swarm. We want to be constantly communicating. We want to get back on defense just like you want to get back on offense. We're going to have some sort of. Some sort of crazy response to Pascal Siakam leaking out on 18 consecutive possessions like he's going to try to do. Or Obi Toppin trying to top that and leak out on 72 straight possessions. It, it's just going to be a fun, really fast series. Even if the pace isn't fast. Like just the pace within the half court on, on both sides is going to the decision making. You have to make so many decisions in such a short amount of time. Both teams, I feel like it strategically is just going to be an incredibly fun series.

[Dave DeFore]

Be like watching Fortnite. I don't know if you guys have ever seen that, but it is never played Fortnite. It is. Oh no, I'm too old to play it but man, when I watch kids play it, it is insane. That's what this finals is going to feel like.

[Zena Keda]

Some parents are out there probably like it's probably like watching Coco Melon. Just like quick critch, like different scenes, colors, everything happening all at once. But it's so crazy. Like of course, I think all basketball fans know is going to be a matchup for the ages because of the frenetic energy both of these teams put out. However, the conversation has been swayed and outbalanced in which one team is going to come out on top than the other. Where people are literally grasping at straws, myself included, to try and figure out where. What are the ways in which the Indiana Pacers can overcome, outdo, whatever you want to call it the Oklahoma City Thunder. And that's, that's the question I have for you, Fred Katz, as a person that watches a lot, you know the stats, you know all the insights, I mean I'm really struggling to try and find flaws in OKC's game. And so I'd like to ask you some about the strengths about the Pacers. Like are. Is there anything that's like really being called out to you of like this is a way that the Pacers could actually overcome the Thunder?

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. So to me, the way if you, if I, if I took a two and a half week nap and I woke up and you told me the Pacers won and I had to guess how the Pacers won.

[Zena Keda]

There we go.

[Fred Katz]

The first, the first thing I would guess would be okay, Indiana's an elite ball control team, right? They finally, they were the ones who figured out how to play at a fast pace offensively against OKC without turning the ball over. Because OKC's defense is turnover centric. They swarm, they'll gamble, they foul a ton. Part of the reason that they foul a ton is because they're just gunning for steals. They're gunning for takeaways, they're gunning for frantic. Just to make just to make passing lanes as uncomfortable as they can possibly be. To make driving lanes as uncomfortable as they could possibly be. And they have faith in their communication, they have faith in their quickness and they have faith in their schemes that they're going to be able to recover back out onto shooters. The other thing is OKC gives up a lot of corner threes. They don't do it because they don't value the corner three. They give up corner threes because you kind of got to give something up. And they put themselves into rotation a lot. Pacers are really good at getting good looks on corner threes. When they get out on the break, they're really good at getting good looks on corner threes. And like Aaron Nesmith hasn't missed a corner three since 1989. So if, if you've got Neesmith hitting corner threes, you've got Siakam, who was really hot during the conference finals, hitting corner threes because they're moving that fast. That works. The thing that's so interesting about Indiana is they're not a typical ball control team because they play so fast normally. A team that doesn't really turn it over is going to be one that plays at a slower pace and is going to be one that isn't going to try to be breaking all the time, isn't going to try to be cutting all the time. You look at the ultimate team game, beautiful offense like prime warriors dynasty. Right? You're not going to find a better offense than that. Right, right. You're not going to find a more beautiful offense than that in terms of player movement, ball movement, unselfishness, everything like that. What did those warriors teams do, Dave? Where were they in turnovers?

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, just always just throwing. Cannot value the basketball any less.

[Fred Katz]

Just, just dead last. No matter how good are you are at it, no matter how beautiful it looks like, if you play that style, you commit turnovers. Except for the Pacers. Except for the Pacers. And that's the beauty in how good Tyrese Halliburton is. And on top of that, like it's the beauty and how good Andrew Nemhardt is because he doesn't really make mistakes. And TJ McConnell makes really good decisions when he's handling the basketball as well. And when they get on their breaks, they like, they make sure it is worth it. They make sure they were out in front of the defense and they're not going to turn that stuff over and they'll do it after makes too. It doesn't have to be after stops. So I think those are kind of the way OKC forces a higher percentage of turnovers than any other defense in the league by a wide margin. And if they're not able to get those takeaways and they're not able to get out running and you can kind of bog OKC into its half court offense, which is overly criticized in my opinion, but is not as good as when they're out in transition.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Fred Katz]

And, and Indiana's able to get out in transition, they're able to create more corner threes than maybe they normally do and they happen to get hot in those corner threes. You could win a game because Aaron Neesmith hits four corner threes. Yeah, you could win a game because you committed only eight turnovers and you just happen to win the possession game because the other part of it is you're probably going to win the free throw battle because OKC fouls a lot.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Fred Katz]

And as much as Shay gets all the comments about, you know, being a free throw merchant, like OKC as a team doesn't get to the line. Yeah, all that much. Like they strategically lose the free throw battle. So like if you can somehow, easier said than done somehow, just not get destroyed on the possession battle, then I think that's the way.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. I mean if you go back and rewatch that Nuggets Thunder series, that was the secret for, for the Nuggets was that they kept OKC in the half court and the ball always found like Lou Dort. And if, if the Pacers cannot turn it over, that's, that's the worry I have for OKC. I mean, something like 20% of their points almost this season came off generated turnovers. So you know, their half court offense, I, I, I understand that it is overly criticized, but the truth is it's not as good as transition because it's not as easy that no team has a half court offense as good as their transition offense. Like this is. This is the key to basketball. And if the Pacers can keep them out of transition, where do those points in the half court come from for okc?

[Fred Katz]

Well, if you watch the conference finals, yeah, J Dub makes all the difference, right? He makes all the difference in the world. You know what you're going to get out of Shay and you look at the numbers during the season even and like when Shea was off the court, their offense fell off a cliff. J Dub runs those bench units. He did a really good job, I thought in the conference finals being able to get to his shots, making the right reads on pick and rolls. He hit his threes when he's hitting his jumpers and when he's facilitating that offense with Shea off the court, they are just relentless for 48 consecutive minutes. It is, it is truly unbelievable. So I think it starts. I think it starts with J Dub. I don't know, Zena, what would you add to that?

[Zena Keda]

I feel like the difference between these two teams because they're so well matched up. I mean, they don't have a Shay. Don't get me wrong. I think Tyrese and Pascal kind of go off back and forth as being the guys for the Pacers. But in terms of being matched up out on the floor, they're pretty well matched evenly. Where I think the difference is how they play the different zones out on the floor. And we know OKC has tremendous perimeter defense. We know that Indiana's interior defense, the way they guard the paint, is significantly better than, than okc. And this is where I'm like, who can take advantage of the zones that the opponent can't guard as well? So I'm looking at OKC1 transition. Indiana doesn't guard transition as well as OKC does. Can they do better in transition? You're talking about the half court. Can OKC find a way to get their perimeter shooting going? That can be Lou Dort, that can be J, you know, J Dub. That can be anyone really. Let's be real. Kendrick Williams, you go down the Roc Wiggins, Wallace, anyone can go hot from three. It's really about the consistency of taking advantage of those zones for me. And if I'm looking at okc, there's more evidence in their series against Denver of their inability to be consistent in taking advantage of the half court. As you mentioned, I'm not even thinking about taking away Shay. I'm talking about taking away their ability to shoot the three consistently versus Indiana. Being able to take advantage of their mid range game or being able to take advantage of their size and side or even the three ball, which they shoot a lot of threes. Yeah, they were, they were inconsistent.

[James Edwards]

I think against.

[Dave DeFore]

They can get cold too.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, they can get cold too. I don't know, I. It's hard for me to just look at just the individual matchups because Shea is going to always win that. The second you take them off, it gets pretty even. And now it's just a matter of taking advantage of your zones.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, it's playoff basketball basically, right, Fred?

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, yeah, it is. I'll add one thing that I'm really Curious to see here is Tyrese Halliburton is probably at. I don't want to say at his worst, because, my goodness, he's good.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

But a way that you can mess with his process and his speed a little bit. I think the best way to guard a Tyrus Halbert and pick and roll and the tyres Halliburton, Miles Turner pick and roll is awesome. The Terry Salbert and Pascal Siakam pick and roll is awesome. And by the way, Indiana might be the best team in the league at slipping screens. OKC might be the best team in the league at communicating on screens and screens and rotating after them. You know, there are people on the weak side and they're low men and all that. That's something to watch. But we haven't seen a team really switch just every single Halliburton pick and roll. Like the Knicks were not switching Halliburton pick and rolls. And I think the best way, if you can do it, if you have the personnel for it, is switch the Halliburton pick and roll. Because what happens is then you get the Pacers out of what they want to do. Pacers want to put you into rotation, and the Thunder, a lot of the time, have no problem defending in rotation. Sometimes they. It's almost like they put themselves into rotation just for the sake of it, because they're like, you know what? We're going to do it and we're going to execute on it. But if the Thunder switch those pick and rolls and they have the. The capability of being able to do that, especially if it's like J Dub gardening Siakam, he's just. And you have Dort guarding Halliburton. Like, you just switch that. That's no problem. Those guys are switching partners. And now all of a sudden you're making Halliburton have to go one on one. That's not what they want. They want Halliburton on the move. They want defenders on the move. They want cutters. I think this team is uniquely positioned to be able to switch pick and rolls against those guys. OKC will cross match more than any other team in the league. Probably. They're very willing to do it. If they do a lineup where they have, say, one big on the court, J Dub could guard Turner and. And Hartenstein could guard Siakam or Hartenstein could guard Niecemith, and they just sag. Like, there are ways that they could just try to figure this kind of stuff out. It's just different from other teams that they've gone up against because they might just want to try to switch that, that pick and roll up the middle. And. And that is such a bread and butter play for Indiana. It's such a way that Indiana causes rotation, and I think OKC is going to try to keep itself out of rotation with the guys directly involved in that sort of play. And I wonder how the rest of the defensive matchups get configured because of that.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, if they can blow up that, that Halliburton pick and roll, it's going to be a short series for the Pacers. It may feel long, though. Fred, before we get out of here, do you want to give us a prediction?

[Fred Katz]

I don't want to give you a prediction, but I will. I think OKC is the better team. I think OKC has been the best team all season. I'm incredibly impressed with the Pacers run. They're playing amazing ball, and I don't think their defense gets enough credit. Offensively, they're obviously awesome, but I think they are way better defensively than people say. And I think they'll take. I think it'll be a series. Let's say. Let's say OKC in six.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Honestly, we all kind of feel the same way.

[Zena Keda]

I think, like, it's.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Like.

[Zena Keda]

Five, actually.

[James Edwards]

Oh, yeah, that's true.

[Fred Katz]

I mean, look, five is fine, but like, the Pacers, I just. I don't know. I just feel. I feel. I feel. Feel like I need to give the Pacers more respect than. Than five. They've, They've. They've run the gauntlet. It's not a fluke.

[Dave DeFore]

It's not a fluke finals run.

[Fred Katz]

No, no, it's. It's not.

[Zena Keda]

Because I think it's fair to say it's not, you know, five, six. I think those numbers, you know, can go back and forth. But the reason why I say five, I don't think it's going to be five in any of those games or blowouts. Right, right. Like, let's just be real. When you think about the fact that New York should have won that first game.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Right. Like, it came down to a bounce, a very tall bounce, but you never know. It's going to be close. And I think that OKC will find a way to close it out more than Indiana will.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Well, that's going to do it for the show, folks. Fred, I'm going to see you in okc. Guys. Go and read them over at the Athletic. Thanks to Fred for hanging out for Xena Keda. I'm Dave Dufour. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.

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