Leaping Around the League

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic NBA Daily - "Leaping Around the League" (February 29, 2024)

Hosted by Dave DuFour, Zena Keita, and Esfandiar Baraheni, "Leaping Around the League" dives deep into the current NBA landscape, focusing primarily on the Minnesota Timberwolves and the Milwaukee Bucks. The episode features insightful discussions, expert opinions from regular Athletic reporters John Krasinski and Eric Name, and a thorough analysis of the controversial 65-game rule.

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1. Minnesota Timberwolves: Rising Stars and Season Outlook

Anthony Edwards: Star Performer with Mixed All-Star Weekend Impressions

The episode kicks off with an in-depth analysis of the Minnesota Timberwolves, particularly spotlighting Anthony Edwards. Edwards has emerged as a pivotal player, averaging 31 points per game in February and demonstrating remarkable resilience on the court.

• Performance Under Pressure:

  • @07:30 Anthony Slater: "Anthony Edwards said, okay, I'll guard Jaren Jackson Jr. and just shut him down for the last 17 minutes in the game."

• All-Star Weekend Controversy:

  • Edwards's participation in the All-Star Weekend sparked debate as he expressed minimal interest in competing, contrasting his regular-season grit.
  • @05:06 Anthony Slater: "Anthony Edwards kind of was really very honest and straightforward of like, hey, we're just not here to compete like that in All Star Weekend."

• Injury Resilience:

  • Despite rolling his ankle and being carried off the court during a game against San Antonio, Edwards returned to score crucial points.
  • @07:19 Fred Katz: "He was in real pain and somehow shook it off, came back out, played great in the second half and got them a win they needed."

Team Dynamics and Playoff Prospects

The Timberwolves' defensive prowess remains a cornerstone of their success, being number one in the league by a significant margin. However, their offense has been described as sluggish post-All-Star break.

• Defense vs. Offense:

  • @12:58 Anthony Slater: "Their defense is not just number one, it's number one by a mile."

• Potential Playoff Matchups:

  • The team is seen as genuine title contenders if their offense improves, with favorable matchups against teams like the Clippers and Lakers.
  • @12:58 Anthony Slater: "I like the way they match up with the Clippers. I like the way they match up with OKC... I like the way they match up with the Lakers, with the Warriors."

First-Round Playoff Challenges

New Orleans among others poses significant challenges for the Timberwolves in the playoffs, given their historical struggles against the Pelicans.

• @15:31 Anthony Slater: "New Orleans has made them look the worst on a consistent basis."

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2. The 65-Game Rule: Navigating Controversy and Impact

Understanding the 65-Game Policy

The podcast delves into the ongoing debate surrounding the NBA's 65-game participation rule, which mandates players to participate in at least 65 games to qualify for postseason awards. This segment features insights from Mike Vorkanoff, analyzing the rule's origins, player reactions, and future implications.

• Origins and League Motivation:

  • @26:17 Eric Name: "It was like a top two priority for them aside from the hard tax. They really wanted to have something in place where they could get guys onto the floor more."

• Impact on Players and Awards:

  • The rule has significant financial implications, affecting players' eligibility for All-NBA selections and associated bonuses.
  • @32:44 Sam Amick: "Players might have to choose between playing hurt and trying to make an All-NBA team."

Behind-the-Scenes Insights

Vorkanoff highlights internal disagreements and concessions made during negotiations, emphasizing the league's economic motivations.

• @27:35 Eric Name: "The league pushed for it hard because it's all about their economics. They get roughly 50% of the basketball revenue."

Future of the 65-Game Rule

Discussions revolve around potential tweaks and the likelihood of the rule's permanence, considering the league's current stance and upcoming CBA negotiations.

• @30:01 Eric Name: "I don't see why the league would change it unless they get some concessions in return."

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3. Milwaukee Bucks: Leadership, Performance, and MVP Considerations

Team Performance and Coaching Changes

The Milwaukee Bucks have shown significant improvement post-All-Star break, moving three straight wins with renewed focus under head coach Doc Rivers.

• Improved Team Dynamics:
  • @41:32 Mike Vorkanoff: "They're way more organized on defense. We're getting shots that we like on offense."

Giannis Antetokounmpo: MVP Season and Leadership

A central discussion point is Giannis Antetokounmpo’s outstanding performance this season, positioning him strongly in the MVP race despite team challenges.

• Statistical Brilliance:

  • @45:38 Mike Vorkanoff: "30 points a night, 11 rebounds a night, six assists a night. He'd be the first person to do that since Oscar Robertson."

• Challenges to MVP Candidacy:

  • Team's early struggles and perceived lack of support from coaching may affect voters' perceptions.
  • @50:28 Mike Vorkanoff: "It reminds me a lot of Jokic's season two years ago when he won the MVP with Jamal Murray out."

Leadership and Team Morale

Giannis has taken on a leadership role, striving to organize the team and steer them through coaching inefficiencies.

• @56:07 Mike Vorkanoff: "Giannis has been putting together his most impressive offensive season and willing the Bucks to victory night in, night out."

Potential MVP Factors

For Giannis to clinch the MVP, the Bucks need to sustain their momentum during a challenging schedule, potentially securing a second-place finish in the East.

• @50:28 Mike Vorkanoff: "If they go 20 and 8 in their final 28 games, get themselves pretty solidly into the second spot."

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4. Humorous Interludes and Team Banter

The podcast features light-hearted interactions among hosts and guests, adding a comedic layer to the in-depth sports analysis.

• Playful Banter:

  • Instances of playful jabs and humorous exchanges, especially between Sam Amick and John Krasinski, add entertainment value.
  • @23:20 - 23:36 John Krasinski and Sam Amick: Light-hearted rejection of joining the podcast, fostering a relaxed atmosphere.

• Guest Interactions:

  • John Krasinski’s participation brings a unique dynamic, blending professional insights with casual humor.
  • @56:44 John Krasinski: "Anthony Edwards should win three straight MVPs." Followed by playful counterpoints from other hosts.

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5. Concluding Insights and Future Discussions

The episode wraps up with reflections on team strategies, player development, and upcoming game analyses, setting the stage for future episodes.

• Doc Rivers and Team Accountability:

  • Discussion on Doc Rivers' coaching style and accountability within the Bucks' organization.
  • @60:31 Mike Vorkanoff: "Doc Rivers stayed out of certain controversies but held himself accountable for team performance."

• Upcoming Matchups and Predictions:

  • Hosts express anticipation for future games, including Bucks' matchups against Warriors, Lakers, and Clippers.
  • @43:44 - 44:04 Mike Vorkanoff: Overview of the Bucks' road trip and challenging schedule ahead.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Anthony Slater on Edwards's All-Star Weekend:
  @05:06 "Anthony Edwards kind of was really very honest and straightforward of like, hey, we're just not here to compete like that in All Star Weekend."

• Anthony Slater on Timberwolves' Defense:
  @12:58 "Their defense is not just number one, it's number one by a mile."

• Mike Vorkanoff on Giannis's MVP Season:
  @45:56 "This is his most impressive season as a pro. Like, he's putting together this insane season."

• John Krasinski's Playful Commentary:
  @56:07 "Anthony Edwards should win three straight MVPs."

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Conclusion

"Leaping Around the League" offers a comprehensive exploration of key NBA narratives, balancing technical analysis with engaging banter. From Anthony Edwards's burgeoning stardom and the Timberwolves' defensive excellence to Giannis Antetokounmpo's MVP-caliber performances and the multifaceted debate over the 65-game rule, the episode provides listeners with a rich tapestry of insights and perspectives. The inclusion of guests like John Krasinski and Eric Name further enriches the discussion, making it a must-listen for NBA enthusiasts seeking both depth and entertainment.

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For more detailed analyses and future episodes, tune in to The Athletic NBA Daily, available Monday through Friday.

Transcript

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[Sam Amick]

Hello and welcome to the Tampering Podcast part of the Athletic NBA Show Network. I'm Sam Amick, NBA National Writer at the Athletic, here with my co host Anthony Slater, Fred Katz and friend, colleague friend of the show on a pretty consistent basis recently, man, John Krasinski. John we we don't normally lean on you like this brother, but the team that you cover just keeps winning games. We got to talk some Minnesota Timberwolves today.

[Anthony Slater]

Let's do it. Looking forward to it.

[Fred Katz]

We got we got to talk Minnesota Timberwolves into June. Maybe that's what you really want to Say June might be strong. May at least something.

[Anthony Slater]

I've never. I never. I don't know what the NBA looks like in May and NBA Arena. So like, we'll.

[Fred Katz]

We'll see about that.

[Sam Amick]

Yeah, John's wife is probably not happy about this. Like, isn't that vacation time? Oh, man, we get away. And also on today's show, just for the folks that are not necessarily all in on the wolves just yet, we're gonna have Mike Vorkanoff from our staff on to talk about the controversy surrounding the 65 game rule. He had a good column the other day talking to all sides about some of the early blowback and the conversation around player participation policy. We might. I don't know if I should tease this. It's to be determined. We might have a little bucks chatter at the end with Eric name. He's got a scheduling conflict. We'll see how that goes. And then Mr. Slater and of course Mr. Select. We might jam in an OKC segment. Another T Wolves type team that is, that is kind of shocking the world right now and fighting for top billing in the west. But jk, let's start here. I see you at All Star weekend, my friend, and had a good time running around. And you're the Minnesota boy, so you're used to the cold. My, my soft west coast ass was not happy out there walking around in 15 degree, 10 degree temperatures. We go cover the All Star Game. As you remember, I was kind of on the fence about am I writing a column tonight about this debacle. Wasn't really feeling it afterwards, you know, when, when they scored 700 points, you know, started realizing that people were pissed off about the way players handled the game. And so it was leaning towards, okay, maybe I'll write maybe. All right. And then you happen to say, you know, by the way, you know, this Anthony Edwards statement is going to make the rounds. It's already on social media that he had made it really clear he has no, you know, had no interest in competing in the game. The optics weren't great for Ant. And the assertion of course was like, ah, what this young fellow who seemingly is so competitive and so old school and everything that we love about the game. Why, why did he flip it the other way? Man, you try to juxtapose that with the way this guy has played coming out of the break, the way he was playing coming into the break, a whole different dude. And the T. Wolves are rolling. You know, take me. I want to talk about the season, but in the context of all Star Weekend. What has it been like for you? Last 10 days or so? Just kind of covering the Ant experience?

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's been interesting because I, in, in many ways I think ant became sort of the face of All Star malaise. Right? I mean he comes out in the skills competition and shoots left handed threes and then he doesn't really play a ton in the All Star game because he said afterward I really wasn't in a hurry to get out there. And, and we're just not competing. This is a break for us. Like that's, that's just the way that it's going to be. And I think that there is a perception among some, or a, I would say a yearning among some NBA fans who want to see who the next face of the league is going to be. They want it to be a Kobe like drive an M.J. like you know, kind of maniacal competitiveness that no matter what you're doing that you, that you just go a thousand percent at it. And so when Anthony Edwards kind of was really very honest and straightforward of like, hey, we're just not here to compete like that in All Star Weekend. That's not what this is about. I think it disappointed some people. But what I've kind of told people is that, you know, yes, the All Star weekend wasn't a great look for him that way in terms of competitiveness, but you put him in a game that really matters with stakes and regular season and playoff implications. There's no one more competitive. He's averaged 31 points a game in February. The Wolves have kind of been a little bit sluggish coming out of the break offensively, but he has really carried them that way. We were just at the game last night against Memphis And Jaren Jackson Jr. Was just kicking their butts all over the place. And Anthony Edwards said, okay, I'll guard a Jarrett Jackson Jr. And just shut him down for the last, you know, 17 minutes in the game. And so that's the kind of drive that he has. It shows up. We see it in the play. We've seen it in the playoff series that he's been in. We've seen it in the regular season where he does not miss games. Even when he's hurt, he does not miss games. And so that's, I think, the side of competition that fans do want to see. And if they're paying attention to and watching these games now, they're seeing the side of an ant that they probably wanted to see in the All Star game.

[Fred Katz]

What, what happened two nights ago he like got carried off and looked like, yeah, I have a serious injury. And then later in the game he has like the dunk to seal it. Like I only saw those two things. I'm like, what happened?

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah. So San Antonio, right before halftime really rolled his ankle. You could watch the video. And it rolled legitimately and he couldn't put any weight on it. He was. Had to be carried to the locker room. He couldn't put, you know, just hobbled off. And then second half starts, he just jogs out of the tunnel onto the court. And I think he scored 14 of his 34 in the third quarter and just took the game over. And he has a kind of pattern that has developed over the course of his four years in the league now where he takes hard falls, he takes bad hits, and it looks like he's going to be out for three weeks and he goes back to the locker room and he comes back onto the court, he doesn't miss any time. That's just 22 year old bones and, and muscles and ligaments and, and, but it absolutely like the target center was so, so quiet when he was down because he was in real pain and somehow some way he kind of shook it off, came back out, played great in the second half and, and got them a win that they needed.

[Sam Amick]

John, how do you see that squad in the context? All right, Slater.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, I was about to say something then. Physically say something.

[John Krasinski]

Say it now. Say it now. You got it. You, you just.

[Fred Katz]

I was gonna say it's almost. Well, I was maybe gonna say something about Anthony Davis in the whole, you know, leaving the court, coming back thing, but I'm gonna not do that.

[Anthony Slater]

But plays and when Anthony Davis leaves, he leaves.

[Fred Katz]

So he know he. I don't like the last three times he has come back, even though it's like. Anyway, I'm sorry, I don't, I mean.

[John Krasinski]

Bring up some stuff. You could just talk about Paul Pierce.

[Sam Amick]

Well, I was just gonna say how these strays we gonna fire off here.

[Anthony Slater]

Not. Naz Reed said it in the after, in the locker room after the game. He said, I just say that he. Paul Pierces it. Like that's literally what he says. And, and so they tease him about it.

[Fred Katz]

But I was gonna say it's almost more impressive he played the next day right after a bad roll. Sometimes the adrenaline will get you through the game and then it's like, hey, he's still gonna miss a week or something. But he played on a back to back and play. Played well.

[Anthony Slater]

So, yeah, and. And he has the one. The last. Last year at the All Star Game, he drew headlines because he was one of those guys saying, hey, look, it's our job. We play. Like, that's what they pay us for. That's what the fans want. We have to get out there and play. I don't believe in load management. And we were kind of talking with them off the cuff last night after the game and just. Just before we were leaving the locker room, and he kind of reiterated that stance of he does not believe that, you know, there should be load management. He thinks that he. He is a proponent of the 65 game rule. Like, he wants that in place because he thinks guys who get these awards should get them because they played in these games.

[Fred Katz]

Well, let me ask you. So I think. I think, because he has said some of that, because of how he plays, I think a lot of people and Draymond Green mentioned this on his podcast recently. Hope and Believe, like, he's maybe like one of the future faces, particularly of American basketball, right? This, this search for the post. Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, like, next beacon. So I think there was disappointment in.

[Sam Amick]

All LeBron out of the conversation. But. Yeah, go ahead.

[Anthony Slater]

He's old.

[Sam Amick]

Yeah, he's gone.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, that's who I meant to loop LeBron in there. But I think there was like. Like, you make the game competitive. You know, you be the face. You be the one that changes it, because, like, you have this. You have an ability to. To rise here as a face. And I guess part of the thought process was like, does he not realize that? Does he not realize, like, what he can be in the league yet? And I don't know. I would ask you.

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah, I mean, I do. Like, I. I have had conversations with him about the opportunity that is in front of him. Because you're right, Slater, that, you know, as an American player, one of the very best young American players, him and Tatum and, you know, maybe a couple of others.

[Sam Amick]

I mean, John Moran, if he wasn't.

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah, Halliburton, you know, those guys, like, there. There is the opportunity there for him to rise up and kind of be not just a face of the Timberwolves, but a face of the league. And he is very marketable. His Adidas shoe is selling out. You know, it just seems like he has the cool factor as well that could make him a major star, and I do think he wants that.

[Fred Katz]

My wife thought he was excellent in the movie Hustle.

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah, exactly.

[Fred Katz]

Like he was a villain.

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah. Yep. He's.

[Sam Amick]

I mean, by the way, any young player who can get routinely compared to Michael Jordan without the Internet destroying you or laughing you out of the room has got to find a way to ride that wave. It is remarkable how similar their games look. I think I'm over the All Star Game thing, John. Like, whatever, they're gonna have to figure that out for next year. You know, in terms of that being any sort of Anthony Edwards character flawed. No, it was just a moment. You know, the dude is incredible. I do want to spin the conversation in this direction and get your opinion on two things. I kind of can't believe I'm saying this, but the T Wolves here in, in early March almost at this point are at the top of the West. So now naturally you got to talk about how legitimate are they in terms of actual title contention. Their profile is really unique. They do not profile like a title contender. You can't have a 17th ranked offense and be in that conversation yet. They just keep winning games. How do you see that aspect of what they're doing?

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, the reason that they are where they are is because their defense is not just number one, it's number one by a mile. I think the gap, I think John Schumann said this on NBA.com but the gap between them in the number two ranked defense is the largest that it's been in the, in 28 years or something like that. It's, I mean that's, that's how dominant they've been defensively and that's what keeps them in games. They were hoping as they went into the break, the 10 games before the break, they had like the third ranked offense in the league. They thought that they were starting to put some things together to iron out the wrinkles offensively, eliminate some of the turnovers, share the ball a little bit more and get a little bit more balanced attack. Since they've come out of the All Star break, it's been a little rusty and a little sluggish. So they're looking to get that back. But if they can even get their offense into the top 10 area, yeah, I think that they are legitimate title contenders when it comes to at least matchups in the playoffs. I like the way they match up with the Clippers. I like the way they match up with okC. I like the way they match up with the Lakers, with the Warriors. I would pick Denver in a series because of their experience, but I do like the way they match up with.

[Sam Amick]

Saying that's the one Obviously, when you take into account the storyline, that. That is the most interesting. Right. With the way that Tim Conley came from Denver in Minnesota with Nikola Jokic in mind. I mean, in terms of entertainment value, you know, sign me up for that series all day.

[Fred Katz]

I might take Warriors Wolves from entertainment value.

[Anthony Slater]

Draymond and Rudy going at it. Absolutely.

[John Krasinski]

They match up with Denver. Well, like, their size is just insanely overwhelming. And when you have people talk all the time about. About Towns and Gobert out there, and obviously that's just huge. But when you have Edwards and you have McDaniels on the wings, that is not easy to match up with. John. John, I wanted to ask you because you. You led me right into it, so I'm going to ask you now, what's their nightmare first round matchup? Because with the way the west is set up right now, it's. They could really still finish anywhere from one to four, realistically, because those four teams at the top were all jumbled there, which means they could play anybody who's in the bottom half of the playoff picture. Who's the one who you're like. Because if they lose in the first round, yeah, that is a huge problem. But it's also possible because the west is so damn deep. So who's their nightmare matchup? Where if they get them, they're like, oh, crap. Of someone in the bottom half of the. Of the picture right now.

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah, I mean, you're right, Fred. They could. They could. I could absolutely see them going to the finals. I could absolutely, absolutely see in them losing the first round. That's the variance that they have, just depending on matchup. And one of the matchups that I think that they would want to avoid is New Orleans. Of all the teams that they have played this year, New Orleans has made them look the worst on a consistent basis. Brandon Ingram, for whatever reason, is not bothered by Jaden McDaniel's defense. He just rises up over him. He shoots it. He looks very comfortable doing it. And. And they. They control the. The boards a little bit better. And Zion Williamson, who is obviously really, really good, but inconsistent, he looks like Charles Barkley against the Wolves. Like, he just is overpowering. He gets to the rim at will. He scores, he rebounds, he does everything. Valentunas is a big dude that. That kind of helps neutralize some of the Wolf size advantage. And so that particular matchup in. In the games they played this year just really does put that bit of bind for whatever reason. And so I think they're number one. I also Would like to see Dallas too. I, you know, this new Dallas look I think could give them some pressure with their scorers with the way they, they can spread things around. So those are two teams that I would be watching you very closely if, if they get them early on in the playoffs and what that would look like.

[John Krasinski]

Nor did that throw Herb Jones on, on Ant also for sure I haven't.

[Sam Amick]

Studied the boxes but you know, I just glanced at it if that's your worst nightmare of a first round matchup. They were 2 and 2 against the Pelicans this year. What do you. The first two games that they won without Zion Williamson.

[Anthony Slater]

Zion was injured. Yep. So. So that was kind of a little fool's gold. And the other two games that they played that New Orleans won, they handled them pretty, pretty definitively. So.

[Sam Amick]

Got it. All right, good stuff. Now the other kind of bigger picture debate I wanted you to weigh in on is, I mean Anthony Edwards is. He's not going to be the mvp. He's not going to be top five mvp. But you look at this recent surge and I looked at it January 24, like you mentioned since in February how the scoring has had an uptick. You know, it goes back even a little bit further. Like he's averaging almost 30 since January 24th. And if you like it's an interesting comp if you analyze his season next to Shay Gilgis Alexander it's, it's very similar players with you know, ants production just a tick below what Shea is doing and a pretty significant tick. But like two way players who are, are you know, kind of that Michael Jordan profile of you know, 36 and 5 territory. What do you think in general about the way Ant gets discussed as far as how much credit he deserves for what they are doing? Because as we saw, you know, they're one of those teams where people don't know who, where to assign the credit, you know. And he doesn't seem able just yet. He's not piercing into the top of that conversation.

[Anthony Slater]

Yeah, I mean I do think that in some ways he gets a little bit penalized because of the roster depth that the Wolves have. I mean you have Rudy Gobert who's been fantastic, especially defensively for them. You also have Carl Anthony Towns who's another Allstar that has been really, really good. You have Mike Conley, so he has more, more well known talent around him. Shay is, you know they have a lot of really young talented guys with the Thunder, but Shea is clearly the face that and, and, and sort of the center of that universe. But I do think that, you know, if. If the Wolves were to finish up the season number one in the West, I think you could point to Anthony Edwards because his playmaking, his decision making has gotten much, much better. And his defense is, when he locks in, is as good as anyone on the ball. So he brings so much to the table. He is their kind of offense. And just the way that when the offense is going well, it's when Anthony Edwards is hitting shots and then distributing it to others. There's so much that is put on his shoulders as a 22 year old. So, yes, I think he's right in that conversation. I just think that maybe he takes a little bit of a discount just because he has veterans around him who are really well established and Shay doesn't quite have that.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Why do you.

[John Krasinski]

I'm sorry, can I. Can I jump in here? Can I jump in here, please? I'm sorry, Sam, I need to put you on a poster right now.

[Sam Amick]

Oh, no, buddy. I'll be the judge of that. My hand's going up. You're about to get rejected.

[John Krasinski]

That's a ridiculous comparison. And I say this as somebody who thinks Anthony Edwards is awesome and has a really good all NBA case, but, like, he's not.

[Sam Amick]

I said a. I said a significant tick. Have you seen there's some ticks out there that are massive.

[John Krasinski]

No, ticks by definition are not significant. If there was a significant tick on you, you would never get Lyme disease.

[Fred Katz]

Have you ever gone hiking in Northern California?

[Anthony Slater]

Significant ticks in Northern California.

[John Krasinski]

It's a cockroach size.

[Sam Amick]

Finish the bug description. Pause in between.

[Anthony Slater]

That was a. That was a pregnant pause on that.

[Fred Katz]

What was the trade deadline? The hot actions cats needs to throttle back.

[John Krasinski]

All right, some hot action on cockroaches right now. And I'll tell you this much. Anthony Edwards is averaging. Like, get the mic. Forget about the conventional stuff. Okay. Shay shay has a 65% true shooting percentage. Like Anthony Edwards is 58. Good number. Good number. But Shay's. Shay is leading the number five offense in the league.

[Anthony Slater]

Coming out.

[John Krasinski]

I'm not done.

[Sam Amick]

I'm not my damn podcast. Hey, waiting in the wing. Hit his mic. Hit the mute.

[Anthony Slater]

This sounds like the OKC fan base right now. Because OKC fans hate Anthony Edwards and. And really, really reacts strongly.

[John Krasinski]

Shay is leading the league in steals. The advanced numbers are not even close. Shay's like, wind shares are twice. Anthony Edwards is right now. Okay, awesome. He's awesome. He's awesome.

[Sam Amick]

But.

[Fred Katz]

But the wind shares.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Somebody tell Me about the wind shares.

[Sam Amick]

For God's sake, let me push the glasses up. Oh, the windshares, here they come.

[John Krasinski]

You know what? You guys demean it all you want, but Shay is. She has a real MVP case right now.

[Sam Amick]

Matt Templeson's so happy with you right now.

[Anthony Slater]

Yes.

[Sam Amick]

I didn't say aunt had a real MVP case. Fred, let me explain how podcasting works.

[John Krasinski]

Yeah, you said he was like a. He's like a ladybug below.

[Sam Amick]

You're done. You're done. We have a podcaster from Minnesota who is around Anthony Edward podcast, and I can't even talk a reporter, and I'm just putting it up on the T for him to talk about his guy and how he should be more in the conversation. It was a significant tick. Damn. Okay, Shay for mvp. That's what we learned today. He's not even an ant on SGA's ass. That's what you're trying to tell the world.

[Fred Katz]

This. This is gone haywire. I was gonna ask a Rudy Gobert question, and I no longer need to ask it.

[Sam Amick]

Mike Morganoff is sitting there watching this, trying to come on. And we are off. Oh, now my phone's ringing. This is great.

[Anthony Slater]

That's for get me in. Get this Minnesota kid out of here. I'm a national writer, God damn it.

[Sam Amick]

John, we appreciate you. I'm sorry that Fred attacked you. Yeah, we'll have our lawyers get in touch.

[John Krasinski]

Oh, to be clear, John, I. I attack Sam.

[Anthony Slater]

Yes, please. Yeah, as long as you keep it in within your house, that's fine.

[Sam Amick]

John, if you'd like to be the new co host of the tampering pod, let me know. You know, we have an opening.

[Fred Katz]

Wow.

[Anthony Slater]

I'll take it under consideration.

[Sam Amick]

All right.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Immediately fired.

[Sam Amick]

Yes. Thank you, John. Talk to you. That was amazing. Hi, Vork.

[Eric Name]

Hi, guys. I was just looking at my warp and war and EPM to make sure I can be in this conversation.

[Fred Katz]

Did that feel like a personal shot at you? I hope it did. It.

[Sam Amick]

Nice to have you on, sir. Yes, spicy indeed. We're gonna switch gears here. We're making the rounds. Good, good Timberwolves discussion, Fred. Always bring in the spice. I like that. Thank you, Fred. Appreciate you. We're now gonna.

[Fred Katz]

All three of us gonna be at warriors next tonight. Is this like a full New York podcast now?

[Sam Amick]

Are you going to Warriors? Knicks?

[Eric Name]

Yeah, I'm actually not sure yet if I'm going.

[Sam Amick]

Okay.

[Fred Katz]

Okay. Sorry.

[Sam Amick]

He's load managing.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah.

[Eric Name]

Yeah, I need to get to 65 games, but I'll find other Ways at.

[Sam Amick]

Least put in 20 minutes. At least 20 minutes. All right, so that is the topic that we wanted to talk to Vork about. Fellow national reporter at the Athletic. Thank you for coming on, Vork. Good column on the 65 game rule. I kind of love. This is a funny way of putting it. Like the classic approach that you took to the topic, which was very much voices from all sides, you know, context about where we'd been when it comes to this rule, how it came about. If some, you know, listeners somehow don't know, you know, players this season, of course, have got to play at least 65 games to be eligible for postseason awards. That's become controversial. Joel Embiid was the face of it before. He was out for, you know, as long as he's been out now. But what you got into, and I think that kind of, you know, advanced the story and, and, oh, you know, shed new light, was a couple of, of specific tidbits, you know, reporting on the fact that an anonymous top TV executive, you know, quite some time ago had personally complained to Adam Silver about the load management, the impact that it had on TV ratings. And like, we all know that the business is driving a lot of the motivation from the NBA standpoint. They've admitted that publicly. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's always illuminating to hear the behind the scenes stuff. So that was good stuff. But then, you know, another thing that got my attention was a union official indicating that they yielded on negotiations about the 65 game policy in order to get other concessions. But simultaneously, you know, saw the, the rule as an ill conceived way to attack the problem. So I don't know exactly where you want to start there, but, you know, what did you learn in the process of doing the column and, and where do you think this whole situation is going?

[Eric Name]

I guess one of the things I learned was how much the league pushed for it in the last CBA discussions. You know, one person that told me it was like a top two priority for them aside from the, the actual hard apron or what were we calling it? The, the hard tax. The hard cap. Sorry. So it seemed like it was their second. Yeah, no, no, they obviously passed push for a hard cap at first that the union would not ascend to. And that's how we kind of got to the second apron. No, I, you know, they really wanted to have something in place where they could get guys onto the floor more. And I feel like, you know, part of the discussion about this has been, hey, you know, Mike cost Joel Embiid an MVP if he had played, like, 63 games before he, you know, had surgery or maybe Tyrese Halberd might have missed an all NBA. That's kind of like missing the forest for the. Through the trees. Like, this is all about the league's economics. It touches, like, every single part of it, and that's why the NBA was pushing so hard for it, and I think also why the MVPA ultimately agreed to it. It's like, yeah, they got some other stuff, you know, in the cba, and it's hard to tease stuff out from one another because it's like a big, convoluted document. All these things are interrelated, but they get 50%, roughly, of the basketball revenue that comes in. So a big, plush TV deal is pretty good for the players, too.

[Sam Amick]

No question. And that is the part for me that, again, to the defense of the league, they have not. They're not trying to run from the business component here. You know, I. I was on a conference call months ago when. When Joe Dumars was talking to a small group of media about this decision, and I had asked him about the, you know, the TV component and that being a driving force. And to his credit, he said, no, I'm not going to sit here and BS you like, of course, that's a big deal. The thing that I. I wonder where it goes is the way it impacts decisions on the floor. Like, you highlighted the fact that Tyrese Halliburton, as he was coming back from his hamstring injury. I didn't actually know this until I read your column that, you know, he. They had load managed him back in because of the injury. And then, lo and behold, he played between 20 and 22 minutes in his first four games back to make sure that his 65 game, you know, counter kept going because, you know, you got to play at least 20 to have a game count. That type of stuff that is a substantive impact on the game. You know, I wrote a column early in the season about De'Aaron Fox when he turned his ankle. Like, the idea that a player like that is gonna try to maybe come back quicker because that counter is always going for each of these guys who want to be all NBA. And then, you know, in the tie into the contract and the money and all that stuff, you know, as far as the where is it all going part. Do you think this thing survives through the cba? Do you think tweaks are made? You know, it seemed like there's a lot of chatter about possible change.

[Eric Name]

I. I think you know, talking to Graham Williams, you know, other players, they like, they want to get this thing changed, right. I, I don't know what the incentive is for the league to change it. It's working out pretty damn well for them at this point.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Right.

[Eric Name]

All the top players have been playing more than they have been last year. And I think maybe you or Joe wrote about it in one of your stories from All Star Game what the actual numbers are. And for them to be willing to change it, the MBPA would probably have to give them some kind of concession too.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Right.

[Eric Name]

Like you're essentially doing a side letter to the CBA that's already in place. And so I, I don't see why the league would do it, aside just from trying to appease players and making sure that you're in a good place with that. But they certainly won't do it until there's a new CBA place. Like, the league seems to be kind of in the stasis until the new CBA is in place. I don't know if you heard like Adam Silver was saying, hey, we won't even make tweaks to the in season tournament until we talk to our future TV partners to figure out what they want that to look like. So I think that's going to hold up business for a while until that all can get done.

[Fred Katz]

And so how close do we feel like the TV deal, like, is this something like bust at any moment or so?

[Sam Amick]

45 days or take it from here. But 45 day exclusive negotiating window in March, right?

[Eric Name]

Yeah, it starts March 9th, I think, and goes 45 day exclusive window, you know, with Warner Brothers Discovery, which owns TNT and then Disney, which owns espn. But like, let's be serious, it's kind of like tampering before NBA free agency. People have been talking and back channeling. Yeah. Actually, David Saslov, the CEO of Warner Brothers Discovery, said the other day in our earnings call, yeah, we're already having talks, they're going well. So, you know, like, I think that.

[Sam Amick]

Those would be for tampering. I think that should be a thing.

[Eric Name]

Yeah, that would be interesting.

[Sam Amick]

Right.

[Eric Name]

Like we're going to come down, we're going to check all of our own cell phones. $10 million out of Silver's pocket.

[John Krasinski]

Yeah.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah.

[John Krasinski]

The NBA loses its own second round pick. Announcer so like it's like Mark Tatum can't do the second iron spiral has.

[Sam Amick]

To be moved up to the second round. Okay.

[John Krasinski]

Exactly.

[Sam Amick]

Real quick context work. And I keep jumping in on you, but you mentioned the data. This is What I was told at All Star weekend, where it was where I was told in no uncertain terms by, you know, league officials like, like we get all the controversy but this thing is working and that's what they are happy about. There has been since the all star break a 25% reduction in star player games missed due to injury this season compared to last an 18% reduction in games missed due to injury among all starters that you know is sign. It's small sample size but it's in their minds a sign that it's working and a sign that they're justified and they want to keep forging ahead.

[Eric Name]

Yeah, and I think like I understand that Joel Embiid and Tyres Albert and kind of in the faces of this so far but if you want to look at big picture, I don't even know why the MVPA should try so hard to change the rule. It really affects like one, two, maybe three players every season. And I say they're big name players. But the impact that it has is pretty small in terms of who would potentially get, you know, cut out of an all NBA spot or something like that. And on the other hand, like maybe Tyrus Halberton misses it because he misses a few more games down the line. It might be another player who gets into an all NBA spot and he gets the extra $41 million or something like that. So I, I don't know if it's necessarily this big picture issue that they really should fight for, but I, I think I can understand why they're being put in a bad place where you might have to potentially choose between playing hurt and trying to make an all NBA team. Which aside from what's in the contract, you know, they're also have shoe contracts that have bonuses for winning awards and all that stuff like that. So there's a long tail of money that's possibly involved for one or two people.

[Sam Amick]

I think the Joel thing. And Fred, sorry, real quick. I want your guys opinion on the Embiid part because it's like yes, high profile guys. I think Joelle is now him getting hurt for an extended period kind of quieted that conversation. But when I wrote a column the night that the Sixers played at the warriors and I watched Joel limping around the floor for three quarters before Jonathan Kaminga fell on his leg. And I mean, listen, I know the league and the Sixers insist that the two injuries had nothing to do with one another. You know, it's hard for that to pass the smell test. It seemed like he pushed his way Back people with the Sixers felt like he pushed his way back. And, and I admittedly that night got in my feelings a little bit about. Damn. Like this guy who is an all time great is going to be written out of the history books because of this rule. Like he's never winning anything ever again. So it's not just, I mean, to me it's really him. It's the idea, like, do you care if that this guy is, is going to be out? And the answer might be no. You know what I mean? But I think he's, he's far and away just the number one guy. Yeah. Yeah.

[Eric Name]

I mean, that's fair. It's usually one guy who becomes the face of this thing and then you have to decide how much that matters.

[Sam Amick]

Fred, I had interrupted. Go ahead, sir.

[John Krasinski]

Yeah, no, I just, I was curious to know. So when this CBA was negotiated, there was different leadership at the mbpa, right? Like Tamika, Tamika's out and Andre Iguodala takes over in the interim. And that's after this is negotiated. And I, I can tell you there was certainly a lot of discontent with this CBA from the player side, like very shortly after it went through. I think in a lot of ways the players didn't realize exactly what was going on when it happened. Part of it, for what it's worth, is on the actual players. Like, I will never forget when Pat Beverley, when he was on the Clippers talked about, he, he was talking publicly complaining about how the union doesn't communicate with the players. They don't know what's going on. And so I said, okay, let's see who the union rep is for the Clippers. He was on the Clippers at the time. And I was like, let's see who the union rep is on the Clippers. So I go to the MBPA site, I look at who the union rep is and the union rep for the Clippers is Terrace Terrence Mann. This is before Terrence Mann was the starter who they wouldn't trade for James Harden. This is when Terrence Mann was a rookie second round pick. And you look through who the player reps are for teams and it's a disproportionate amount of whoever the most recent guy drafted was. So it's like the second round pick from the last draft is always the pa, the, the PA liaison or rep or whatever you want to call it. What does a 19 year old know about working in a union? Nothing. It's rookie duty. And that's why this stuff doesn't get communicated. That's why this stuff doesn't go through to the players. And I've always just been frustrated by the way the MBPA and the players make up the MBPA and the way the communication lines work. That being said, Mike, in reporting on this story, have you, have you gotten any sort of vibe on, on how with the leadership change, how priorities might change publicly? Like you say they don't like, you know, the, the PA is, is. Is not in love with the 65 game rule. Does the way that they're willing to handle the 65 game rule, does that change now that there is a change in leadership there? Or do you see them going about things in, in a different fashion?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Well, I think they're the same.

[Eric Name]

Good to delineate. It's good to delineate like two things. Yeah. Tamika Trimaglio, who was the executive director during negotiations is out. Andre Godala is in as the interim. Right. And he's going to decide whether he wants to stay on full time and all that. But the executive committee is still there. Like they're heavily involved in negotiations too, right? Like they were the ones who decided they want a leadership change. They are the ones who had to sign off on the deal itself on the cba. And so it's not as if, even if you don't want to add a, like, you know, every player in the NBA level, even like 30 team level, there are a lot of players who are involved and had a lot of say in this. Like Jalen Brown was at the negotiating table, right? Like C.J. mcCollum's at the negotiating table. You know, I asked Jalen Brown at All Star Weekend one of the actual questions I could get into a player, whether he had any regrets about this being in the cba. He's like, no, no regrets. He would want it to be a 58 games, but he's not regret about it being in the cba. So I think maybe the players who weren't attuned to the negotiations or what the final deal looks like are not happy with it. That's a separate issue to your point. Maybe there should be some better labor organizing in the NBA and they can deal with that ahead of 2030. Even Tyres Halberton, when he was saying that he was playing so he could be on the all NBA team on the JJ Reddick pod was like, yeah, I don't really pay attention to that.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

So stuff.

[Eric Name]

Well, you know, what are you signing off for when you sign these cba. But I, I think there Will be.

[Sam Amick]

That's quick. I mean, that's why you got guys like Paul Reed, you know, that night when the Sixers played the warriors, saying, you know, I didn't sign up for this stuff, or maybe Kelly Uber, one of those guys. And, and that the communication issues have always been a major problem for the union because you have all the power in the executive committee. And then like if that word to your point, Fred is not getting from the committee to Terrence Mann to Patrick Beverly, like that, that Requires Terrence Mann, 19 year old, standing up in the locker room in front of the entire group and you know, and speaking with some authority about what the union is conveying to him. That doesn't happen. So that's when, you know, on a lot of teams you have guys who are in the dark.

[John Krasinski]

Right. It also requires, it also requires terrence Mann, a 19 year old, to just like know anything about unions.

[Sam Amick]

Yeah.

[John Krasinski]

And, and, and, and collective bargaining agreements, which is not a knock on Terrence Mann. It's a knock on 19 year olds. Because when I was 19, I certainly was not qualified to be doing anything with a union. It, it, it's just the way that it's handled internally, I think is flawed. Like Patrick Beverly, you want to know more about the union? Well, you're a vet. Volunteer to be your team's union rep. Don't pawn it off on, on, on the rookie second round pick who has to do it as part of his rookie duty. I'm, I'm with you. I think the, the, the players union could benefit from increased communication. I think part of the reason why after CBA's are signed, we start to see, oh, this was, this was bad. And you see it coming from the players and in some cases it's because in a lot of cases they just like, they're not totally sure what they're.

[Eric Name]

Signing at the time or they're not interested during negotiations. Apathy too.

[Sam Amick]

Right.

[Eric Name]

It's not just not being told what's in there, which, you know, they get, they send them all out like, you know, top sheets and cover sheets about like what's in there and all that stuff. Top line stuff. Like some players just don't care and they just sign off on it. Right. Like keeps the money going. Understandable. So, you know, that's, I think that's a very big thing to figure out.

[Sam Amick]

Good stuff. Fork. Appreciate you, man. You came in amidst some chaos. You, you steadied the waters. You know, Fred stayed in line. Fred, I love you. Appreciate you. One shot per week. That Was fun, though.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

All right, stop talking about this boring labor stuff.

[Sam Amick]

No, I'm a sucker for the union stuff. We don't talk about that. And not even just the union stuff, but the league union relationship, which might not be all that sexy for the listeners, but there really is, you know, I'm just a massive part of what makes the NBA go. So appreciate you being on top of that. Highly recommend. If folks didn't read your column to go check it out and we will talk to you soon. We are going to shift gears here and highlight another team that is front and center a lot this season in a very different way than the Timberwolves story that we talked about before. We got Bucks beat writer Eric Naim on the program from a lovely Charlotte post shoot around media room. Eric, we, we've been talking about your team all year and in terms of aspirations and expectations that were unmet. And it's funny on this particular episode because we're highlighting teams like the T Wolves and maybe at the back end the Thunder that are all about the, the fun that comes with surpassing expectations. I just, I feel like every couple weeks we got to have you on to do a pulse check on the Bucks.

[Fred Katz]

Now it looks like Lamello Ball's doing a pulse check behind Eric's head.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

He is. Yeah. Look at that.

[Fred Katz]

I like the, the backdrop. It's, it's, it's almost as cool as the parrot with the beer on his beak that.

[Sam Amick]

I mean, I should be asking you about Jeff Peterson heading the Charlotte front office now, you know, but we'll, we'll hit that on another day. First of all, thank you for joining us, brother. I know you had to wait a little bit while we, we open things up for you. But, but how are the Bucks? That's. I'm just going to throw it in the most general way possible. How is the team that you're covering now?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Great. That they think they're great like that.

[Fred Katz]

I mean, if you're in Charlotte generally, it's, it's a good, good night.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah. No, that's fair. And they just had a good one against Charlotte in Milwaukee. So, you know, they've come out of the all star break. They've won their first three. Getting ready to play the Hornets tonight. They go to Chicago on Friday. So a back to back that potentially they win five straight before they really get into it. Before I come out to visit you guys next week, where the Bucks go, Warriors, Lakers, Clippers, Kings, and before that they have one more at home against the Clippers. So that's like five games where you're actually gonna get tested and have tough stuff. But coming out of the All Star break, the Bucks feel really good about everything that they're kind of doing. You know, you. You saw them go three and seven in the first games on. In the first 10 games under Doc Rivers, and there was, you know, concern about, what are the Bucks doing? Is Doc going to be able to figure this out? And every night, like, the players would get done with the game and sure. Like, they might have lost, but they'd be like, everything makes way more sense. Like, we're way more organized on defense. We're getting shots that we like on offense. Like, we still have some things to figure out, but everything is trending in the right direction. And, you know, all I can go off of is kind of what the players say.

[Fred Katz]

Right.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Like, obviously, you can do your reporting and talk to people, but overwhelmingly, even behind the scenes, everyone's like, everything's way better. I know we went three and seven, but everything is way better. We're going in the right direction. And now after the All Star break, you've kind of seen some of that come to fruition where they have won three straight and. And I think they're. They're really hoping that they're winning five straight before they go into, you know, that. That really tough part of the Western Conference road trip in that game before. Before the road trip with the Clippers and walk.

[John Krasinski]

Eric, how was their approach over the break? Like, did they. I feel like they're different teams use the break for different things for them. I feel like, considering the fact that this is a joke I've made to you 17 times since the start of the season, which is that they use training camp to learn a defensive style that they never played. So they basically just never had training camp and then they change coaches.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Is.

[John Krasinski]

Was there at all. Just like a. Let's turn this into training camp 2.0 in the second half of the season to just get things reorganized.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah, I mean, they. They made the interesting choice of not flying back to Milwaukee. Their first game was on the road in Minnesota on Friday night. They flew. It had all the players fly into Minneapolis, and they had a practice on Thursday at the University of Minnesota. And like, that was. Again, we. We talked about multiple training camps throughout the season as they're going through different coaches and coaching changes and changes from the coach that threw out a defense that he was running in training camp and offensive changes and doing all this stuff. But, you know, Doc Rivers came in and he really focused on the defense event when he first got to Milwaukee, the defense improved in those first 10 games and then offensively they kind of lost their way. So, you know, at the University of Minnesota, it was really like Doc Rivers going player to player before this first practice and being like, all right, here's what we expect out of you. This is what we need out of you. If we're going to win going forward, focus on these things and you know, going from guy to guy before this practice, doing that, and then really kind of trying to hammer home what they're trying to do offensively, install some new things on that end. And really what they're trying to do is make Damian Lillard even more comfortable. Right. And you know, the, it's been a storyline throughout the year. How comfortable Dame is it? You know, what they're trying to do and the two man game with him and Giannis, I mean, this is something that I wrote about all the way back when we all, or I guess when Sam and I saw each other at the end season tournament, right? Like that. That was something that we were talking about then. It's been a continued storyline and they're still trying to figure that out. So, yeah, I would say another training camp, this one largely focused on the offense and making sure everyone had their expectations ready to go for, you know, this final 28 game stretch. I believe it was after the All.

[Fred Katz]

Star break just because I'm trying to really fire Fred cats and even Sam up. How would you compare Giannis's MVP case to, I don't know, Shay, Gilders, Alexander, perhaps? Like, how would you compare contract.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I, I personally believe this one's fine, by the way.

[Sam Amick]

Anthony Edwards.

[John Krasinski]

That one's, that one's fine from earlier.

[Fred Katz]

In the podcast where these two almost lit each other on fire yelling about Eric.

[Sam Amick]

You recite Giannis's windshares off the top of your head.

[John Krasinski]

Sam said that Anthony Edwards should win three straight MVPs.

[Sam Amick]

And oh yeah. I was like, yeah, yeah, that's a take.

[John Krasinski]

And I was like, no. And said he was significantly better than Shay. And I was like, no.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I mean, one thing I appreciate about you guys is not being afraid to throw a take out there. If there's one thing I think about when I think about the tampering podcast is Hot Take City. That's, that's all you guys do. So I, I appreciate you guys not being afraid.

[Sam Amick]

Fred, Fred's kind of like a cockroach on this pod. I'm just saying, you know, that's.

[Fred Katz]

Oh, Yanis MVP case. That's what I was really asking about.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Truly. I believe this is his most impressive season as.

[Sam Amick]

Oh, hot take there.

[Fred Katz]

There's a take. These are. I like you coming in with the taste.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I think when you look at what he's been doing before I looked at it coming out of All Star break, I believe it's 30 points a night, 11 rebounds a night, six assists a night. He'd be the first person to do that since Oscar Robertson. In the season that Oscar averaged a triple double like that. If you're talking about counting numbers and how impressive they are, you start there then I, I think one thing that's kind of been underrated is just the fact that obviously I've been on this podcast every couple months to inform you guys that, hey, it's kind of messy in Milwaukee. Things aren't going right in Milwaukee and the thing that had been going right the entire season was Giannis. Giannis was just like, all right, everything's going wrong. I'm just going to go win games. And yes, it was not against the best schedule. And all the things that you heard about the Bucks 30 and 13 start not being that impressive before Adrian Griffin got fired. But like he just willed them to wins.

[Sam Amick]

It was just him, everybody but Indiana.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Right, except Indiana. But even those nights, 64 points, career high, couple 50 point performances he tried those nights, he just couldn't get it all the way across the finish, finish line. So to me, this is his most impressive season in the NBA. I think you have all of that, you know, in the one on one that I had with him that we ran right out of the All Star break. Like he was talking about the fact that he was more worried about leadership than he's ever been before. He was trying to get everything like organized as a team. Okay, what are we doing on offense? What are we doing on defense? He's talking, he's trying to step up in the void that was created by Adrian Griffin. Just not really taking to the job in his first year as an NBA head coach. And because of that, Jonas had to do even more of that. So you're looking at the, to me like the best, like leadership and willing the team to victories. A lot of times under my Buden Holzer, it was, this is the system. Giannis is going to have a spread out floor. He's the system. He's going to dominate. This all makes sense. For 43 games, it all did not make sense. What the Bucks were doing offensively didn't make a ton of sense. What the Bucks were doing defensively didn't make a ton of sense. And in the middle of it is Giannis putting together his most impressive offensive season and willing the Bucks to a victory like, night in, night out. So to me, it's, it's just been crazy. You look at his rim percentage, it's up next to his first MVP season. Like, the ability that he's shown, even with all of the mess, even with the spacing not being great, like, he's still putting together this, this insane season. So to me, this is most impressive season as a pro. I, I think it's, it's kind of been somewhat ridiculous to watch him not be a part of the MVP conversation. Like, I, I, he's a part of.

[Sam Amick]

It, he's just down a bit. I mean, that's what I was going to ask is, like, what do you think it would take for him to pull off the surprise finish at the ending here? They currently have the seventh best or tied for sixth best record in the league. They could pretty easily get up into. Not easily, but they can get up into the top four. Boston, Minnesota, Oklahoma City. You know, Denver right now is two games ahead of the Bucks. And I only say that because we all know that team success gets factored in people like MVPs that come from teams at least near the top of the conference. You know, they, they, I think they would need to pass Cleveland and be second in the east behind Boston. They're not going to catch the Celtics, you know, and I don't know within all that exactly what the schedule looks like. What do you think he, they would have to do for, for him to, to get there?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah, I mean, coming out of the break, the Bucks had one of the, like the, in the final portion of the season, they have one of the toughest schedules in the NBA. I don't know if they win something, like, if they go 20 and 8 in their final 28 games, get themselves pretty solidly into the second spot. Like, I understand that there's more talent around him than the comparison I'm about to make, but to me, this reminds me a lot of Jokic's season two years ago when he won the MVP when Jamal Murray was out. And, you know, it was just kind of messy and they didn't have the best record in the league, but Jokic had, like, willed them two victories. Like, it was just how good he is and his individual brilliance. Like, to me, that reminds me a lot of this season with Giannis. Like, everything's kind of A mess. He's just kind of channel.

[Sam Amick]

I'm going to channel my inner front cats and push back because it's always good for the pot. But I do mean this like I would. I don't love that comp. Because the truth is I think the perception for a lot of voters is going to be that fair or not, Damian Lillard's struggles to get comfortable are partly falling at the feet of Giannis because the, the Jokic example from a couple years ago, that was enlightening and revealing because you took a guy like Jamal out of the rotation for so long and they still played at a very high level. I think this one has got the, the reverse optics, which is that he's probably going to pay a price for the, the angst around Dame. And real quick Slater, before you jump in, like, you know Dame's interview the other day with Chris Mannix at si, I was actually going to light heartedly ask you about it because as, as a native Milwaukee and like, can you help your guy, like figure out how to have some fun in your city? Because he's googling boxing websites and, and bored to tears. But like that, those, those are tricky optics where that it just feels like the group has had a hard time getting Dame comfortable. I think part of that is going to fall in Giannis.

[Fred Katz]

Also. It, you know, how much of the Adrian Griffin mess, or whatever you want to call it, kind of falls on him too. Yeah, right. You know, like LeBron has faced this in past years. You know, the Westbrook example, it's good, right? Where it's like, oh, well, you know, that, you know, the Westbrook experiments not going that well. It's like, well, like LeBron, you're kind of at fault for, for it not going that well.

[Sam Amick]

Not a bad cop.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd do. I think from a perception standpoint he's ever going to be in this conversation. No, I don't. And I'm saying I think it's ridiculous. Like, I, I think it's ridiculous that he's not going to be able to beat the perception that he's at fault for Damian Lillard not feeling totally comfortable. And he's at fault for his coach being one of the worst in the league for the first 43 games of this.

[Fred Katz]

But he kind of pushed for that coach, though, that that's where I mean.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I mean, that's totally fine. Like, I'm not trying to say that's not what occurred, but I don't know that you can be like, well, he should have known Adrian was gonna be one of the worst coaches in the league. You. You get to the three finals of a job, you assume these guys are all qualified. Right. Like, the fact that he picked out one of them is the guy, all of a sudden, he's supposed to. He should have known that Adrian Griffin was not going to be able to handle the job. Like, I don't. I don't know. That's fair.

[Sam Amick]

I don't even.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

It's going to go along with. I'm not trying to say it's not going to.

[Sam Amick]

We don't have to go along. I'm just trying to get inside the minds of the voters. And 100 MVP doesn't stand for messiness. And the reality is, like, MVPs do not typically get picked from messy situations. Now, to their credit, like, you just kind of chronicled that. You're kind of cleaning it up a little bit. And. And I do. Let me pivot, because we, you know.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I. I got one more point.

[Sam Amick]

Yes.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

So the one thing. I understand that. Right. I heard a lot of that at All Star Weekend. Right. Like, well, Giannis is never gonna be in the MVP conversation because he's, you know, he is the reason why Adrian Griffin's there. Where did it show up in Giannis's play? Like, where did it show up in Giannis's play? Did you see him taking nights off? Like, was that a thing that he did? Like, I. I know the coach killer thing is going to go along with him and, and whatever that. Like, that. That can be whatever you want to say, but, like, when it was other stars, you do see stars take nights off and, you know, not do. Giannis did everything in his power to make that work. And I'm. I don't disagree. This perception is going to stick with him this year, and it's probably going to take him out of that, whatever.

[Sam Amick]

But, like, also by. And I'm. I'm. I got one foot on both sides of the fence here to. To jump on your side for a minute. You know, Mike Booneholzer was in trouble for a long time. Like, a long time. You know, the year they won the championship.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Three years.

[Sam Amick]

Yeah. We reported that. If he didn't. What was it? If he didn't get past the second round or the conference finals, like, he's out. And we had very, very solid reporting on that fact. And then it was admittedly kind of hilarious to then watch the championship parades and they. Bob, we love you, bud. It was like, oh, good Lord. Like, y'all were I had him one foot out the door, so that is fair. And that was not just a Giannis thing. That was an organizational, previous ownership thing. Perception is reality when it comes to voters. And I mean, listen, we've, you and I have discussed the media coverage of your team and how it's, it's a small market team that has kind of big market problems. But the truth is that, you know, people are not on the ground there every day like you are and don't have the nuanced perspective that's going to impact voters.

[Fred Katz]

So also, we're talking about separation points between like a Giannis and a joke. It's a Giannis and a Shay. And if you're looking for a small separation point between absurdly good.

[Sam Amick]

I mean, I can see, I honestly could see myself voting on his, you know, second right now. Third. I mean, I have him. His, his season's incredible.

[John Krasinski]

Behind Anthony Edwards.

[Sam Amick]

Yes. I mean, and I might have ant with two slots like I think I.

[Fred Katz]

Might give him until he ruined All Star Weekend. So he took himself out.

[John Krasinski]

Sam is going Anthony Edwards one, and then I protest, he's leaving the rest of his ballot blank.

[Sam Amick]

Just, I'm gonna actually, I'm gonna just do like Carl Anthony Town second, and Rudy Gobert third. Wow. Just to kind of skew the vote, you know what I mean?

[John Krasinski]

Sam says it's a significant tick, but the reality is it's like one of Those ticks from 500 million years ago when the atmosphere was overloaded with oxygen and insects were just like 6ft long. It was one of those ticks.

[Sam Amick]

Or like Slater said, Northern California hikes. You don't know anything about this. You need to come to our part of the country.

[John Krasinski]

But I have a honest question. I have a Yanis question that's related to basketball. You mentioned Giannis around the rim. He's shooting 82% at the rim this year. But it's not just the efficiency around the rim. He is getting to the rim like never before. And as a result, you're seeing 65% on twos or whatever it is, which is a career high and career high efficiency numbers across the board. And he's still averaging 31 a game. Like you said, more than three quarters of his shots are within 10ft right now. Career high. Again, what are you seeing that is allowing him to pull this off to such an extreme? Because he's taken fewer threes, he's taking fewer mid range shots, those little pull ups that we would see and be like, ah, damn. Yes. Like, just go Just go. Just go. And you're like, I get it, the human body can only take so much, but like, just go. It's so easy for you. He's just doing that every time now, right? So what, what is allowing him to do it to this degree?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I think over the last five years, he's, he's really developed in an insane touch around the room. You go back to that MVP season, I'd have to recheck the numbers, But I think 24% of his shot attempts were dunks that year, which is absurd. 24% is an insane amount to be so. A quarter of his shots were dunks in his first MVP year. And as he told me at the Athletic after the year, like, you know, I gained seven pounds, the floor was spaced and I was just dunking on MFers. Like that's, that's just what I was doing. I think over the last five years, it's the variety of finishes that he's, he's kind of figured out. When he goes left now, he's going to sneak in a right handed finger roll that you just can't get your hands on. When he goes right, he's going to extend it all the way out and shoot like a little hook shot. Like everything he does around the rim is just so much more nuanced than it once was, that once he gets to those places, you just can't do anything about it. And in the past it'll be like, okay, well don't let him get a dunk. Like, make him shoot something else. And now his touch is just insane around the rim that no matter what you do, he's just going to score at the rim and he's going to shoot 80%. And the only thing you can do is make sure that the wall is built so well, so sturdy every single possession that he doesn't get to that spot.

[Fred Katz]

Sam Amic, did you want to flip the conversation to Doc Rivers? And if we did, I have one. Go ahead.

[Sam Amick]

You have takes? Yeah, I want to talk, Doc, because Eric, I, I just, you know, the conversation last week, you know, he was viral for like an entire week and JJ Reddick's going after him and, and I stayed out of it. I will say, like, I just think Doc's been a really interesting guy to cover. I, I covered him. Beginning of my national days was the Lakers Celtics Finals in 2010. Saw him, you know, still trying to win titles at that point. And then 2008, of course, he, he wins it with Boston and, you know, covered the clippers years wasn't around the Sixers as much, but I just, I found the conversation interesting to see a guy like jj, who played for him and had good years under him, go after him. I think, you know, we don't need to dive down that rabbit hole. What I'm wondering is that on the beat, on the ground, as that stuff was going on and apologies if I missed any of this. Like, did Doc ever really directly address the conversation that surrounded him? You know, you had his son Austin Rivers on ESPN kind of defending his honor to an extent. And, and everybody was talking about Doc. Did, did Doc take any of this stuff head on or largely stay out of it?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I mean, largely stayed out of it. And, and I think, you know, this is another thing that you're talking about. Like, you know, people don't have the, the boots on the ground in Milwaukee. Everything that Doc said at All Star Weekend, in the various interviews that he did, he said it as an introductory press conference. He said as he was coaching the Bucks, he said in pregame press conference and post game press conferences. Like, he already said all of those things to, not to me specifically, but to the group assembled here in Milwaukee. So none of it was like really a surprise. And I mean, to me, like the, the big thing is like accountability, right? Like it, you know, is Doc accountable for his team or just, you know, blaming other people and kind of how it all works. And the thing I kept coming back to, and I, I told you this at All Star Weekend, Sam, was that like, you know, everyone will say, like, Doc should have said this or said that. And I've been looking for the first thing that he said that isn't true. Like I was on that west coast road trip, it sucked. They had a back to back, took a day off, went on a 5 game, 10 gig, 10 day West coast road trip, took another day off, had to, had a back to back, took another day off and had another back to back. So yeah, that was a bad time to join the team and take over.

[Sam Amick]

Like, not the point.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I understand it's not the point, but it's the truth. Like, the truth is you don't have.

[Sam Amick]

To tell the world the truth all the time. Just do the.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I don't disagree, I don't disagree. But no, no one said, well, that was false, he was lying. No, that's not, that's not the thing.

[Fred Katz]

Can I ask a different type of question? Chalk Rivers related? I'm just curious. Do you think it is good for, for the Bucks that they now have a personality at head coach, because, you know, covering Steve Kerr with the Warriors, I think the way he talks and makes news and. And really speaks to different things. Like, the warriors look like. Like, Steph Curry loves it. Like, but they love that they have a head coach that just, like, he can take the attention from over here and over here, and, you know, he'll just. He'll make news. Whereas the Bucks. I know that Budenholter, who's. We'll call his personality, what, milk toast or something like that, and Adrian Griffin was not made. He. The only headline he made was, oh, wow, Adrian Griffin got fired. Do you, like. Do you think this is. Like, is this. It's probably what they wanted, right? It seems like Lillard and Giannis almost want the personality head coach that he is.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I mean, I. I think a big thing that.

[Sam Amick]

That one.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

They've never had this before, like you said, right? Like, when they've been good, they haven't had a guy like this. So I think they still have to figure some of this out and whether or not they actually like it or don't like it. But I do think one thing that Giannis has kind of appreciated throughout his career is, like, people that tell it like it is. He. He likes that. Like, he likes, if you don't show up for the last game before you go on the All Star break, that the coach is willing to call it out and be like, yeah, we didn't try. Half the guys were in Cabo. Like, Giannis feels the same way, so he enjoys that. And again, should he say those things? Like, should. Should he tell. Should he say it like it is and make the. The big quote and the quip and say the line and do all that stuff? Maybe not. But, like, they were trying in Memphis. They did lose to a team of G Leaguers. And the reason why they did is because the guys weren't there mentally, like, that's. That did happen. And again, you can say it's Doc River's fault that his players should have been ready to go, but I think we've all covered the league long enough to know that. Yeah. What. So what? Doc Rivers yelled at me, like, whatever, I don't care. Like, I. I gotta go to Cabo or wherever I'm going. Like, I. I don't know. So it's. It's been weird for me on the ground because I. He keeps saying stuff that's true, and then people being like, well, he should have said that.

[Sam Amick]

And I was like, I mean, we love.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Maybe not.

[Sam Amick]

We love guys who are Interesting. And in that regard, he's always been fun to cover. I. I do think it was a pretty hilarious perfect storm of.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Of.

[Sam Amick]

Of moments. And. And just for the sake of, like, NBA pop culture, I'm gonna. I'm gonna kind of memorialize it here on the pod. I mean, it wasn't just him talking at allstar Weekend about how he didn't really want to join the team when he joined the team and how hard it was then. He repeated in an interview to Rachel Nichols that he had two teams contact him before he took the Bucs job, which is such a hilarious tease because people then want to figure out who the teams were. And, oh, by the way, it also has dangerous optics there because, you know, as we'd reported, he was a consultant with the Bucks before. So let's not maybe go down the road of, like, how coaches really get hired. Like, you guys don't want us to talk about that, but now you're kind of alluding to it. But it didn't even come close to stopping there. You had the line about how he told the Clippers that James Harden would be great for them. So he did kind of take credit for the Clipper success. And then. And I admittedly texted a friend and colleague, Tim McMahon of ESPN on this one. I then look at ESPN and there's a story about how you told the Clippers that Shay Giltress Alexander was going to be amazing.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

He knew.

[Sam Amick]

He knew about the. Okay, give him credit.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

You know, he could see it.

[Fred Katz]

He. He even warned Kawhi Leonard.

[Sam Amick]

I just. I want. I want the interview where he talks about all the draft guys that he loved that didn't pan out and the. And the X's and those choices he made that don't work. I think that's where people do grow a little tired of it, is that, you know, it's. It's highlighting the convenient stuff that makes you look good.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah. And again, like, I. I'm not trying to say he's avoiding doing those things. He is doing those things, but, you know, like, as he's saying all this stuff about the team and the time that he joined the team, like, yeah, I was on that road trip. It sucked. Like, it was. It was not fun. I didn't want to be on it.

[Sam Amick]

Oh, and just like you, he was on commercial flights. He was getting rental cars.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

100. Exactly right. Exactly right. Exactly. This the same thing. Me and Doc Rivers going through the same stuff. But no, I mean, it's just interesting because I do think one, like, the Headlines and all that stuff like, have come along with Doc Rivers. But to Slater's point, the only headline that Griff made was he got fired 43 games in. So what the headline probably should have been is.

[Sam Amick]

I mean, it was also, you know, Terry Stott's departure, that was kind of a thing.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Jerry Stott's departure, the head coach of an NBA team threw out his defensive scheme four games into the season.

[John Krasinski]

Yeah. Don't forget about the mutiny or the Bobby Porter's disagreement.

[Sam Amick]

Right.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Like there's is all this stuff and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, you know, Doc's making headlines now the whole season.

[Sam Amick]

No.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah, it's all been headlines.

[Sam Amick]

What are we talking about by comparison? 100. Because guess what? If as long as the basketball is good and it's going in the right direction, good job.

[Fred Katz]

Best sports in general.

[Sam Amick]

Good job, Doc. All right. In honor of our buddy, I have one. I know. I'm saying I'm setting you up.

[Fred Katz]

Promotion. Okay, this is going to be one.

[Sam Amick]

One more thing, as Modakil likes to say.

[Fred Katz]

This is. This is. This is gonna be very random. Eric. Name. Name the city, though, that you primarily cover.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Milwaukee.

[Fred Katz]

Sam Amick. Name the city.

[Sam Amick]

You're in Sacramento proper.

[Fred Katz]

San Francisco would be me and Fred.

[John Krasinski]

Katz in New York.

[Fred Katz]

That would be the career path of Dr. DiVincenzo.

[John Krasinski]

Right, exactly.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

That was really well done.

[Sam Amick]

Oh, and now he's. Let me get. Here comes the story. Promotion. Here we go.

[Fred Katz]

Exactly.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I mean, one more thing.

[Sam Amick]

Right. You know, hold on. I can't let go of my mic. Can I just give a little applause?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

That was well done.

[Fred Katz]

Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, go. I'm. We don't need to go too deep into. Fred cats wrote a brilliant story. Just go. If people want. Dr. Diva. Ted was third in the league and made threes. I mean, that's kind of.

[Sam Amick]

Yo.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

He tried 17 threes the other night.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, 18.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Single game. That's crazy.

[John Krasinski]

Shortchange him.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah, I wouldn't dream of it.

[Fred Katz]

He is having quite the season and Fred Cat spoke to him and I spoke to the. The man who's apparently, you know, really, you know, I guess propelled this season, which is Steph Curry. So go to the Athletic and read about it if you'd like. I just wanted to say that the Curry.

[John Krasinski]

The Curry quotes from Slater's part of the interview were so awesome, in my opinion. Like, I. I asked. I asked later if he was going to be able to get Curry because. Because Dante told me all the stuff that he learned from playing with Curry and kind of how he rejiggered his shooting form after playing with Steph to. To improve it and look at what it's done. And I. I asked him if he thought he'd be able to get stuff. He was like, yeah, for sure. So he does the Steph interview, and he's like, I got him. He was good. I'll send over the transcript. I was like, great. So he sends the transcript, and it's like, stephen Curry, the greatest shooter of all time. Everyone agrees. Even Reggie Miller agrees. Just talking so technically about jump shooting and comparing why. Why shooting a 3 is. Is fundamentally similar to shooting a bow and arrow and talking about angling and getting so technical. And I'm like, this. I was like, what are you talking about is good. I was like, this is awesome. How cool is this? Hearing this dude talk about. Talk about this. This is like. Like those baseball instructional videos that I watched when I was a kid. But if they were done by Stephen Curry about to win back, well, I.

[Fred Katz]

Mean, these are the conversations. Yeah, there you go.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

You're saying he's better than Tommy Mansky. Come on. That's ridiculous. Steph Curry. Okay.

[Fred Katz]

These are also the conversations that Dante DiVincenzo was allowed to have on, like, a everyday basis for a season. And I think that's kind of at the heart of the story we did. And, you know, it. Promoted tonight. Warriors, Knicks, tnt. Kind of an interesting, fun game.

[Sam Amick]

All right, well, gentlemen, I got FOMO because I will not be at Warriors, Knicks. Mike Vorkanas.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Come on.

[Fred Katz]

Lamello looks fired up back there for.

[Sam Amick]

I need a game, man. I got nothing in town right now. Y'all are out there seeing the action. I got a little dry spell here. Appreciate you, Eric, for coming on. I know you had to chill in the Charlotte media room waiting for us. I hope it was well worth your. Eric Slater. Fred. Fred, I love you so much. Even though even our cities tick me off. Hey. Every once in a while.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Wow.

[Sam Amick]

All right, thanks as always. Yes. Always. Always bugged. To the loyal listeners. That was a fun pod. A little bit longer than normal, but covered a ton of ground. Thank you to John Krasinski. Thank you to Mike Vorkanoff. Super producers Andrew Schleck. Dave, before we will talk to you next week. Week.

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[Mike Vorkanoff]

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[Sam Amick]

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[Mike Vorkanoff]

Hey guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.

[Fred Katz]

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[Mike Vorkanoff]

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[Sam Amick]

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[Mike Vorkanoff]

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[Mike Vorkanoff]

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