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- [00:01]
A
Your team just added its 67th AI tool and also your 67th security blind spot. The good news? The Vanta Agent works like a GRC engineer in the background, finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16,000 fast moving companies like Ramp, Cursor and Harvey who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get started@vanta.com hey, this is Adam Grant,
- [00:28]
B
host of Ted's podcast Rethinking with Adam Grant. This podcast is supported in part by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results. One assumption many organizations rarely rethink how their financial operations actually get done. That's why smart leaders turn to Bill with AI powered automation. Bill isn't just moving money, it's reducing the manual work of invoices and expenses for nearly half a million businesses. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with a platform built to evolve with you. Visit bill.com proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances.
- [01:03]
C
Hi, this is Ben Green from the Athletic fc. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.
- [01:41]
D
What's up everybody? Esperahini here, continuing our draft coverage ahead of the 2026 NBA Draft, joined alongside Derek Parker, who if, if you don't know from YouTube, you should know from YouTube because he does some incredible draft work there, covering the NBA draft every single year. He also covers the Oklahoma City Thunder and the draft itself for Sports Illustrated. Derek, how's it going man?
- [02:06]
E
Doing good, man. The draft is incoming. We're, we're getting close. It's busy season, but excited.
- [02:12]
D
Okay, so we're talking wings with you today and I, I think wings in this draft. I don't want to say few and far between, but it does feel like it's, it's either very guard heavy, very big heavy in this draft. Would you agree? And then the follow up question is, who is your number one wing in the 2026 NBA draft.
- [02:33]
E
I would agree. I think obviously it's very, very guard heavy. You kind of have that run after the top four of, you know, five, six guys and then a lot of good bigs floating around too. So I think the Wings have taken a little bit of a hit overall. But potentially the best player in the class is a Wing, so that brings it back. And obviously it's AJ DeBonsa, you know, out of BYU. Just unbelievable at basically everything. At 6, 9, he's got fluidity and 25 point per game guy. He projects to be that at the NBA level also. One of the only top guys who I think really showed improvement through the season, which is really important. Obviously Cam Boozer was very steady in the production that he offered and I think Darren Peterson was a little more up and down due to the injury. But AJD Bonsa, for all intents and purposes got better through the year. You know, the passing got better. Defensively I think he shored things up and then offensively checks every single box that, that you need at an NBA level, so can play on the wing. But he's also again 6 foot 9 with a 7 foot wingspan. So he's going to be a little positionally versatile there just again checks every box you want out of a potential number one pick.
- [03:35]
D
It's, I mean AJ is an incredible player and if you watch him at byu, I, I completely agree with you. That improvement that he had kind of game to game, the shot creation, his, his ability to kind of take and make these really tough and difficult shots, especially in that mid range area. How do you feel about how his game in general? I guess his game at this very young stage translates to the NBA.
- [04:02]
E
Yeah, I think shot creation is just consistently at a premium in the NBA and to have a guy at 6 foot 9 that can create his own shot is certainly a luxury. I think he has probably the best like creation tools for his size that I've seen in my time doing this. Like just the burst and the acceleration and all the buzzwords you use for a guy when he like has the ball and wants to get to the rim. Like he has it in terms of like creating his own shot. And then you know, the jumper isn't just the absolute most beautiful thing, but it goes in and he shoots it at a high rate. And then again improved his three pointer through the year too. So yeah, I just think he has all the tools in his arsenal to get better and he's already a really good player.
- [04:40]
D
It's, it's one of those things where, you know, of course the top four of the draft feels like consensus at this point. Not in the order of the top four, but just in the fact that those four players between AJ DeBonsa, Darren Peterson, Cam Boozer and Caleb Wilson, it feels like AJ is the shoe in to be number one. Would he be number one on your personal board?
- [05:03]
E
He would not. You kind of touched on it there. But just the shot profile as a whole I feel like is a little bit tougher than the other guys. Now that's not to say that eventually he won't be one of the best mid range shooters in the league or he won't be one of the best 6 foot 9 off the dribble, you know, tough shot makers in the league. But I do value the, the ease with which Darren Peterson scores and the ease with which, you know, Cameron Boozer impacts the game just a little more. And I say this as a person who again, covers a lot of Shay, like the mid range is back. I think AJ DeBonsa can potentially get to that point. But it does scare me just a little bit in terms of the shot profile, I would say.
- [05:39]
D
Yeah, I mean, look, this is a guy who, who averaged 25 points in college in his first year, BYU. He's a pretty prolific rebounder to like seven rebounds a game. His, his ability. I think the sell for AJ DeBonsa is how big he is, his ability to create shots at his size. And you know, I think overall you hope that that also translates to a defensive game that could be dominant as well. How do you feel like he can, he can work on the defensive side of things in the NBA?
- [06:09]
E
Yeah, I think it's a little bit of best of both worlds. Right. Like I think obviously the 6 foot 9, the 7 foot wingspan, that's great. That's phenomenal. Those are like the exact template you want out of a guy who can put, be put in the middle of the floor and just do a lot of things offensively. But I think I would have liked, you know, the steel numbers to be a little bit better, the block members to be a little bit better given his size and tools. And again, he's the perfect template, but I do think he needs to probably, you know, put that into practice on the actual floor. So right now, you know, not the most stellar defender, but sky's the limit for a guy with this level of athleticism and fluidity and seemingly work ethic as well.
- [06:44]
D
Yeah, the physical tools are just the selling point here. Okay. Of the top Four. Who do you think he fits best with?
- [06:51]
E
Team wise?
- [06:52]
D
Yeah, yeah, just team wise.
- [06:54]
E
What.
- [06:54]
D
What team? Or maybe even just your personal preference. What do you think is the best team for AJ Devonza?
- [06:59]
E
I mean, the Wizards are hard to ignore just in the sense that like CJ McCollum led them in points per game last year and he's not even there anymore. So it's like, I mean, getting a potential 20 plus game, got 20 plus point game guy, like off the rip with your number one pick and then, you know, folding in the best version of Trey Young and, you know, who knows what's going on with ad but that level of score for the Washington Wizards, like, they need it so desperately. So I do think it's a good fit if he ultimately does go there.
- [07:26]
D
Yeah, it feels like, I mean, as we're kind of watching the NBA Finals, it feels like wings very important still in the NBA. As much as, you know, size is becoming important. Wings and what they're able to do with their combination of size and fluidity kind of reign supreme. And AJ Devonsa is, is maybe one of the best examples in the draft in recent years. Okay, number two on your wing board. Who would that be?
- [07:48]
E
Dalen Swain, out of Texas, two years at Xavier. You're pumping your fist. I mean, he's a fan favorite. Like, he's the one guy like Swain. Yeah, it's like there's like the film draft community and then there's like the advanced analytics draft community. And Dylan Swain is like bridging the gap here. Like he is analytics slanted. But. But when you watch him, he really pops. Like he's got athleticism and size and he can create his own shot. And he was a role player dating back to Xavier and he just broke out with Texas in the sec. Like he's got the full package outside of the three point shot. And you know, there's some believers that he's going to be able to shoot the ball, especially once, you know, NBA gravity gives him better shot quality and things like that. So just a stellar player, a guy who had a really, really nice year with the Longhorns.
- [08:32]
D
Yeah, this is, this is also a guy that like, despite you having him second on your board and this is sort of to the wings being few and far between, he's slated to go somewhere in the kind of 15s to 20s range of the draft. Why do you think that is? Why is he not a consensus lotto guy versus, you know, some of these other prospects?
- [08:55]
E
Yeah, I think it's Just as simple as age. You know, there's a lot of true freshmen in this class that they're maybe a little more mystery boxy in terms of the upside and what they can bring as a junior. You know, Dalen Swain is a junior and he had a really great junior season. But I think people can get a little stuck on, well, what are these guys going to bring as a junior when they're 21, 22 years old? And that's fine. I think there is a lot of upside to be had in the beginning of the draft. But Dalen Swain also brings a lot of things that the NBA values right now in terms of he can pass, he can rebound, he brings ancillary skills that all wings should. And then he's also got this kind of boost of self creation where he can, you know, create in the pick and roll and in isolation and do a lot of things on the ball. So he brings a legitimate scoring package, you know, himself for others. And then also I think the upside is better than people anticipate. Even though he was a junior, I love Dalen Swain.
- [09:46]
D
I mean, he's kind of in and around the range of, of where the Raptors have a pick. And I obviously cover the Toronto Raptors. And so I'm, I'm watching what possibility there is for Swain to maybe be in that range. They could, they could use some wing help, some shot creation. He's also incredible at getting to the basket, as you alluded to, which is just his, his craft of being able to get to his own spots and finish in and around the basket seems like a main selling point for him. The jump shot is a question though, because in his first two years at Xavier, you know, he shot 15% on very low volume, then 25% on very low volume. Last year at Texas, he was a 34% three point shooter. Again on low volume. Like two and a half three point shots. It's a game. Do you feel like that's a part that can be. Do you think the three point shot is something that can be a consistent part of his game?
- [10:38]
E
I think it can be. It's certainly not easy to project. Again, you touch on like 15% as a freshman. It's not great. The volume still isn't there. I think the biggest thing in his back pocket right now is that shot quality factor because when he was getting open looks, catch and shoot looks where he could load up and the hitch didn't really matter and like the speed of the shot didn't matter like he made threes, and I think if he's playing with, you know, a legitimate NBA playmaker, then that shot quality is just going to stand and get better. But with Texas, you know, he was the main engine. He was the guy creating the offense, and he was having to shoot a lot of off the dribble threes and create his own shot and just take a. A worse shot quality in general. So I think that could be his saving grace in terms of the three pointer, but aesthetically, it's not amazing. And then volume wise, it just has never really been there. So certainly a work in progress.
- [11:27]
D
Do you have a favorite landing spot for Swain?
- [11:30]
E
I think it would have to be the Thunder. I mean, you look at what they needed in the postseason, they need secondary creation. They don't have anyone of this size like all of their teams.
- [11:38]
D
The Thunder guy is saying, no, I'm just kidding.
- [11:41]
E
He's the perfect fit. He's the perfect fit. I mean, they play Kayson Wallace at wing, Alex Caruso, Lou Dort, and those guys are stellar, but they're guards. Like, they're. They're not wings, and they just don't have a guy of this size in addition to him bringing that creation that they need. So I think it's a really good fit.
- [11:55]
D
Yeah, look, six, six foot six and a half, six foot ten, wingspan. Has. Has the potential to be a really good defender in the NBA just because of his physical tool set. And I think that matches what the Thunder want to do defensively too. So it makes sense to have Swain, you know, I guess as high as you do on your wing boards. Who goes? Who's number three on the wings?
- [12:19]
E
I'll say Yaxel Lindaborg. And I have him at 3. I actually have him higher than Swain on my board, but in terms of just ranking wings, I'll say he's the third best wing because Axel Linda Borg, as we will get into, very positionally versatile. Like, this is a guy who started out at UAB as a center, and then he moved to power forward. And then this year with Michigan, he was playing next to two bigs and he did play the wing. So super malleable. Can just do so many different things with the ball in his hand, off the ball defensively. Like, he. He's a legitimate player. He can play face up, he can post up. And I think in terms of, like, wing ability, he really improved on the perimeter this season in terms of taking threes, doing more things face up, just kind of hovering around the perimeter. So he's an impressive player.
- [13:03]
D
He, he's definitely one of the coolest players in this NBA draft. When you watch him play, you can very easily say how this all translates to the NBA. And I also think it helps that he's a multi year guy. It also helps and hinders him that he's a multi year guy because he's going to be 24 years old by the time the NBA season starts. And so he's more of a, you know, it's kind of harsh to say, but he's more of a finished product compared to some of these younger players that have a few years to develop to figure things out. Do you feel like that is, I guess, what is his ceiling? What is his potential? Is he, is he a finished product or is there more to tap into for Yaxel?
- [13:43]
E
I don't think he's a finished product. Now, is he closer to being a finished product than most of these other guys? Yeah, I think just due to the, the age, sure. But, you know, he was a late bloomer in basketball. I think he's seen a really rapid ascension across basketball in terms of starting out as a rebounding five and then moving to the power forward. And now he's doing absolutely everything for a national champion Michigan team. And how's that going to fit into the NBA? Like, is gravity going to take even more pressure off him? Can he continue improving on the ball? Like, I don't think he's just a complete. Like, this is what he is. Even though he is 24 years old. Like, I think there's still some room for improvement. So in like the grand scheme of the draft, I think he's a great pick even if he is 24, because I think he can improve. But certainly, you know, it is going to be different than taking like a true freshman in Braden Buries, who, even for an older true freshman is just going to have so much more room to grow. But I don't think we're just like completely capping Yaxel Lindenberg.
- [14:39]
D
It's, it's really interesting because there are a few teams in the range Yaxel is slated at. You know, you talk about Thunder earlier. I mean, maybe the warriors who are trying to be competitive around Steph Curry, maybe the Miami Heat or Charlotte Hornets. Like there are a few teams in that grouping of somewhere between 10 to 14 range, like late lottery that could use an experienced rookie to bring into the, to the fold. Who do you think, what, where do you think is the best fit for Yaxel?
- [15:11]
E
Yeah, I think certainly the ones you mentioned, for all the reasons that Dalen Swain works for the Thunder, I think Axel Lindeborg does, too. The warriors, you know, if they are intent on moving forward with Steph Curry for the next few years, which it seems like they are, like, to me, grabbing a guy who's 24 and can impact the game immediately doesn't seem like such a bad idea. And then this also seems like just the most Miami Heat pick ever, where, you know, he slips due to age, but then they somehow just continue to add to his game and develop the way that they do and make the most out of a little bit less. So, yeah, I think those spots in the late lottery, and then the Hornets as well, sitting there at 14. Like, you talk about the. The perimeter monsters that they have, like, folding in Yaxel, Lindenberg, who can rebound and pass and dribble and defend, like, would be a monster, monster core four there.
- [15:57]
D
Yeah, the. The combination of Brandon Miller and Yaxel would be very, very fun on the wings, slash, you know, forwards, whatever you want to call them, but, like, that combination next to Khan, next to Lamelo, that. That feels like something that they can work with, grease the wheels of their offense, if you will. Okay, we've got our top three in AJ In Dale, and Swain in Yaxel, who is numero for. For you.
- [16:23]
E
Number four, Nate. Amen, out of Tennessee. Not a guy that I was, like, immensely high on through the season, but in diving into, like, the scouting report and just kind of getting into the deeper film with him, I kind of came around just in terms of the size. He's like, a legitimate 6 foot 11. He's got a 611 wingspan. I mean, those are already better measurables than any other wing we've talked about. And not to mention the fact he's probably the most, like, fluid and coordinated and, like, athletic from, like, a connected sense, like, just an incredible mover. I think that's ultimately the appeal right now because statistically, it wasn't the most amazing season with Tennessee, even though I think in any other year, like, nearly 17 points per game as a true freshman, we're, like, not really talking about, like, we are now, but Nate. Amen. Immensely high upside. You know, I think there's some detractions just in terms of the. The Tennessee season, but when you watch him play, just the smoothness he has, the fact that most of his shots come on the wing and that he is this jumbo archetype that I think NBA teams search for, like, you can kind of squint and see the vision of what he can be in the NBA and I think that could be a really good player.
- [17:28]
D
It's, it's interesting because yeah, you look at his numbers in Tennessee and It's like okay, 17 points per game, six and a half rebounds, couple of assists. He had a couple of steals as well, but also 39% from the field and 33% from three and just very inefficient. I mean he shot 43% on twos at Tennessee. I. Why do you think he was so inefficient offensively?
- [17:54]
E
I think they asked him to be an offensive engine next to Jacoby Gillespie and you know, five star prospect, 611 wing. Like I think that was fine of them to ask. Like he came in and he did add 16 points per game and you know, the, the efficiency wasn't perfect, but I just don't think that's going to be his role at the NBA level. And that's kind of why I project him to be a little bit better in the NBA especially I think NBA spacing and just the space on the court and the way the NBA operates and the way offenses work, I think it's set to help Nate Amant more than most. In addition to the fact that he's going to be, you know, the, the fourth scoring option, the fifth scoring option, he's going to be a guy who benefits from playmakers off the ball and just kind of gets into his own on transition and spot up shooting and things like that. And you know, he was asked to really carry a heavy scoring load for Tennessee. So I don't think that really played into his efficiency in the best way.
- [18:43]
D
Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I, I'm curious then because he seems like he's slated to be a late lotto guy. If you project him to be more of a role player, does it make sense for him to be a late lotto guy and, and not maybe potentially fall deep further in the draft?
- [18:59]
E
Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think, you know, the pressures of being the sixth pick are real and going to a Brooklyn team that like needs a star or even like Atlanta at 8, like they want him to plug in and like be what they thought Riza Shea would be theoretically. So I, I think yeah, certainly going to just a little bit better of a situation later in the draft could be a great thing for Nate Event. And I'm kind of eyeing, you know, the bulls at number 15 where he can go in and you know, they're looking for slap size, length, athleticism, physicality. And I think he brings some of those things. Maybe not the physicality part, but 6 11. You know, he's got Josh Giddey as a playmaker. He's got the template for what I think he can be in modest Baselis and they would theoretically maybe have a Caleb Wilson and I just think, you know, him going to a pressure free situation would be really great.
- [19:44]
D
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, we've got our top four. Who is the fifth wing rounding out this group?
- [19:51]
E
The last one, Baylor's Cameron Carr. Super exciting player. Spent a few seasons at Tennessee, transferred to Baylor and broke out. He can score. He's so, so athletic. I mean he just has like the perfect wing, you know, archetype in terms of he's 6 foot 5 but his arms are that of like a center. Like he's got a seven foot wingspan, can jump out of the gym, he can shoot, which you so rarely see. This combination of like high flying athleticism and three point shooting ability. I think the spurs are employing a lot of guys right now who have that and it's a reason for some of their success. So yeah, he's a player man, he can score. I think the defense is a little up and down, but still like the, the floor as a whole is great given the tools and then the shot blocking. Super fun for a guy this size.
- [20:37]
D
I, maybe you will disagree with this. I'm curious, but I think Cam Carr, if he gets drafted in the late lotto, slash, end of first round, whatever, has a chance to potentially win rookie of the year just from his ability to score in multiple ways, play in a role, right? You talk about the athleticism. He will be a human highlight reel and that will help his case too. But just I feel like he has a sneaky upside to have a really good rookie season. Depending on where he goes, like if he comes in for a team, let's say like, like the, the, the Hornets, right, Who can get his level of shooting, maybe can, can kind of insulate him a little bit defensively. I, I wonder if he could have a really good rookie season. How do you feel about him as an, as a, as a underrated dark horse rookie of the year candidate?
- [21:31]
E
I think in any other year I would agree with you. Now the most loaded draft we've seen in a long time. Maybe can't get there, you know, when the cam boozers are floating out there. But I agree, I, I think depending on the team he lands with, like he's a guy that's Going to be able to plug in quickly. And again, as we touched on with, like, Swain, like, he was a junior or a redshirt sophomore, whatever he is, he's got some experience under his belt. Right. So I think that lends itself to maybe plugging in a little quicker. And like you said, if he lands at the right team, he's got the highlights. I think he's going to have, like, the face value impact of, like, going to dunk the ball, going to shoot threes, going to have crazy blocks. Like, that wins you games in the NBA. And that wins you some hardware sometimes, too.
- [22:10]
D
Yeah, look, he. He was. He is touted currently as, like, a 3 and D guy, and you sort of alluded to it now with, like, there are still some defensive questions. He's not, like, the biggest strongest player. He's still rather lanky and, like, not filled out yet. How do you feel about his defensive upside? Defensive potential?
- [22:30]
E
Yeah, I think the upside is great. Like a shot blocker that's 6, 5, that can rotate from the weak side and send it off the glass. Like, that's awesome. And then the wingspan, like, he's going to be able to get in the lanes and fan out and hopefully guard at the point of attack a little bit. You touched on it, though. Just very skinny. And we're seeing right now in the NBA Finals, like, strength is huge. How many times has Stephon Castle just gone through somebody? It's hard to envision right now, like, Cameron Carr doing that, like, guarding Stefan Castle. And obviously that's like the pinnacle right now of what we're watching, but going to have to fill out, certainly. And I think, you know, prospects like this can. We've seen guys add strength and functional weight and physicality, so certainly not out of the realm of possibility, but going to have to get a little stronger.
- [23:12]
D
He's definitely one of my favorite prospects. Again, from Raptors perspective, at number 19. I'm looking at this and saying, well, maybe I don't think Cam Carr will be there at 19. I would be pretty surprised, given to your point, like, the set of tools that he has. But just a guy who can shoot, run, play athletically makes a lot of sense for truthfully, a lot of NBA teams. Okay, we've got our top five. What are some honorable mentions in the wing category for this loaded 2026 NBA draft?
- [23:43]
E
Yeah, I think you got to go with Isaiah Evans as one. Just given that he is, like, the definition of a true wing. Like, he's a little lanky, like. Like Cameron Carr as we talked about, but can really shoot it. I think defensively he improved as a sophomore. Just kind of brings a skill set that a lot of teams need in terms of can do so many different things offensively, but it's all complimentary, which is the best way. And then again, defensively, can fan out, you know, can make plays, can just do a lot of different things. So Isaiah Evans, you know, a two year Duke guy who played with both Cooper Flag and Cam Boozer. That's exciting. Maybe he ends up one of those places. So certainly on the the wing watch list.
- [24:19]
D
Yep, that's a really good one. Isaiah Evans also now just looking at kind of like mock boards. He's drafted to be like a late first round pick. We'll see where he ends up. I mean he might end up on, on a contender and that really changes kind of where his fit is, how he could play a role in year one. Okay, give me another honorable mention if you got one.
- [24:39]
E
I'll go Joshua Jefferson. In the same way that like Yaxel Linda Borg, we've like put him in kind of the wing box for this video specifically. I'll do the same for Jefferson. I think he's probably the best like point forward in the class, which I just called him a forward. But like if you're on the perimeter and you're face up, you're playing the wing, right? So I just think he can do so many different things. He's not the most athletic guy, but he's just unbelievable. When I watch me, he can score, he can defend, he can pass, he can play off the ball, on the ball. Like he can just do so many different things. I gotta shout out my guy, Josh Jefferson.
- [25:10]
D
Okay, Josh Jefferson makes it into our group. Look, this is going to be a really fun NBA draft just from the stakes of the top four, but also the depth that we're seeing in this draft. I know the nil kind of impacts the second round and maybe a little bit of the late first round, but overall the talent of this draft seems insane. And I'm very excited to see how this group pans out. I'm very excited to see how you cover them. Derek, my guy, I appreciate you as always. Tap into his YouTube if you guys haven't yet. Very, very, very good draft content that I always watch because I'm just like, who is this guy and what does he do? And thank you Derek for explaining it to me. Thank you Derek for joining us. Appreciate you guys as always. We'll see you guys next time. Thanks for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe or Follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed it, drop a Like, leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us.
- [26:26]
F
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- [26:56]
C
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