NBA Draft Lottery Fallout | Morning Shoot Around

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily: Episode Summary Episode Title: NBA Draft Lottery Fallout | Morning Shoot Around
Release Date: May 14, 2025
Hosts: Dave DeFore, Zena Keita, and Esfandiar Baraheni
Regular Appearances: Andrew Schlecht and Alex Spears

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1. Introduction to the Draft Lottery Fallout

In this episode of Morning Shoot Around, hosted by Andrew Schlecht alongside Dave DeFore and Esfandiar Baraheni, the discussion centers on the repercussions of the recent NBA Draft Lottery. The hosts delve into how the lottery outcomes affect various teams, especially those in smaller markets struggling to attract star talent.

2. Impact on the Toronto Raptors

The conversation begins with an examination of the Toronto Raptors' position following the draft lottery results.

• Andrew Schlecht expresses skepticism about the Raptors' relevancy:
  "[03:39] They’re like the 28th, 29th most interesting, if we're being honest."

• Esfandiar Baraheni dismisses the significance of their draft position:
  "[03:50] 7 and 9 is not that big of a difference to me."

The hosts agree that missing out on top picks slightly still leaves the Raptors in a challenging spot without substantial gains from the lottery.

3. Conspiracy Theories Surrounding the Lottery

The discussion shifts to the prevalence of conspiracy theories within the NBA, particularly regarding the draft lottery's integrity.

• Dave DeFore laments the lack of trust in the process:
  "[07:10] If I was Adam Silver, I would absolutely rig the lottery every single year."

• Zena Keita adds humor while critiquing the randomness:
  "[06:31] People could believe anything."

The hosts highlight historical instances, such as the "frozen envelope" incident with Patrick Ewing, to illustrate ongoing skepticism about the lottery's fairness.

4. Evaluating Current Draft Picks and Team Strategies

The conversation delves into the effectiveness of recent draft picks and the strategies teams employ to rebuild.

• Esfandiar Baraheni praises teams excelling in scouting minor talents:
  "[15:20] The teams that get out of that, they're the best at pro personnel scouting."

• Dave DeFore discusses the inefficacy of the current system in distributing talent equitably:
  "[14:22] The bottom of the draft has come up closer to the top of the draft."

The hosts debate whether teams should adopt more aggressive tanking strategies to secure higher picks consistently.

5. Alternative Draft Systems and Proposed Reforms

Exploring potential alternatives to the draft lottery, the hosts propose innovative systems that might better serve the league.

• Zena Keita suggests a pitching tournament-like system:
  "[08:53] What if instead of a lottery, they did like these pitches?"

• Dave DeFore introduces the idea of salary scales based on team performance:
  "[09:27] What you could do is a salary scale instead of a draft lottery."

These suggestions aim to reduce randomness and incentivize teams to improve rather than tank.

6. Challenges for Small Market Teams

The episode highlights the inherent difficulties smaller market teams face in attracting and retaining star players.

• Andrew Schlecht emphasizes the lack of a fair mechanism:
  "[10:56] There's no fair and equitable way to get stars to small markets."

• Dave DeFore critiques the inability of teams like the Jazz to compete without significant changes:
  "[42:40] They have to tank. That's the only thing."

The hosts agree that without substantial reform, small market teams will continue to struggle in building competitive rosters.

7. Specific Team Analyses and Trade Scenarios

The discussion moves to detailed analyses of specific teams, including hypothetical trades and their potential impacts.

• Dave DeFore proposes trading Anthony Davis to improve team dynamics:
  "[27:09] I do think that the smart move would be to trade Anthony Davis."

• Zena Keita explores potential trade partners like the Pacers:
  "[28:07] What about AD with the Pacers?"

The hosts debate the feasibility and potential outcomes of such trades, considering team needs and salary cap implications.

8. Playoff Predictions: Oklahoma City Thunder vs. Denver Nuggets

Shifting focus to the playoffs, the hosts analyze the ongoing series between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Denver Nuggets.

• Andrew Schlecht praises the competitive nature of the series:
  "[63:19] It is a chess match, back and forth, just punch for punch, great playoff series."

• Dave DeFore critiques Jamal Murray's performance and its impact:
  "[66:24] Jamal Murray just doesn't think he's got it like he should."

• Zena Keita highlights Nikola Jokić's crucial role:
  "[64:35] He was incredible last night."

The hosts discuss the tactical nuances of the series, including defensive strategies and player performances that could determine the outcome.

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts reflect on the need for a committed strategy in team management and the broader implications for the league's future.

• Andrew Schlecht underscores the importance of commitment to a plan:
  "[43:03] Commit to a plan. Because you will die in the middle."

• Dave DeFore reiterates the necessity for teams like the Jazz to adopt aggressive rebuilding:
  "[42:39] Maybe that's the lesson to take here, it’s like, tank harder."

The hosts conclude by emphasizing that without decisive actions and strategic planning, teams will remain stagnant, perpetuating the cycle of mediocrity.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Dave DeFore: "[07:10] If I was Adam Silver, I would absolutely rig the lottery every single year."
• Zena Keita: "[08:53] What if instead of a lottery, they did like these pitches?"
• Andrew Schlecht: "[43:03] Commit to a plan. Because you will die in the middle."
• Dave DeFore: "[42:39] Maybe that's the lesson to take here, it’s like, tank harder."

Key Takeaways:

• Draft Lottery Criticism: The current NBA draft lottery system is widely viewed as flawed, with conspiracy theories undermining its credibility.

• Small Market Struggles: Teams in smaller markets continue to face significant challenges in attracting star talent, perpetuating competitive imbalances.

• Strategic Reforms Needed: Proposed alternatives to the draft lottery, such as pitching systems or salary scales, aim to create a more equitable and strategic approach to team rebuilding.

• Playoff Insights: The ongoing Thunder vs. Nuggets series showcases the importance of player performance and tactical execution in determining playoff outcomes.

• Commitment to Plans: Successful team rebuilding requires a steadfast commitment to long-term strategic plans, avoiding ad-hoc decisions that can derail progress.

This episode provides an in-depth analysis of the NBA's draft lottery aftermath, offering critical insights into team strategies, systemic issues, and the broader landscape of professional basketball.

Transcript

[Andrew Schlecht]

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[Esper Heaney]

Gross.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And what it means for these particular teams. We can start with the Raptors if you want.

[Esper Heaney]

Oh, no.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Let you get it off your chest. You want to wait?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, they're like. They're like the sixth most in seventh most interest. I don't even know.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, keep going, keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep going. They're like 28th, 29th most interesting, if we're being honest. Come on.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. No, I mean, lottery wise, I don't think they're. I mean, 7 and 9 is not that big of a difference to me.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

It would have been nice to jump to one or two.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yep.

[Esper Heaney]

And I know there was. There was that whole thing yesterday where there were a bunch of reports coming out where it was like, oh, if it was this combination and they were one number off or one number this way and whatnot, like the Bulls were close to winning the lottery. The spurs had the best odds at one point to win the entire thing and get number one overall, which would have just been terrible.

[Dave DeFore]

This is why I don't gamble.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Esper Heaney]

Would the spurs have been worse than the Mavericks for you guys?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know. I don't know. I think it's kind of interesting, right? It turns into a 2K franchise then, right. Where you trade, you know, you tank or you don't even tank. You just trade away players, you get draft picks and you wind up with all the top picks.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

That's kind of cool. If the Dear and Fox thing is. Is kind of in the way there for it to fully be what it could be. But I don't know. I. I think the Dallas thing is the funniest thing that could have happened.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's the fun by far. It's the funniest. It's also the one where the conspiracy theories around it make more sense than the reality.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, the NBA has found themselves in a tricky spot because there's so many conspiracy theories that have existed throughout the NBA for years and years and years.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Lottery ones, too, right? Yes, well.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. I mean, one of the first ones was the frozen envelope for Patrick Ewing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Totally. And it's it's tough now because, like, you think about the Cavaliers losing LeBron James. Oh, sorry, guys.

[Esper Heaney]

Kyrie Irving.

[Andrew Schlecht]

We got. You got the New Orleans Pelicans. Oh, man. Sorry about that. You guys going to la? We got something for you. Oh, Mavericks. You know what? We really need a boost in the ratings.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, there you go.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What would help most is to get a star in la. You know what? Don't worry. We got your back. Or bring a Cooper flag.

[Esper Heaney]

You could really sell yourself on this, by the way. This is not.

[Dave DeFore]

Whoa. Okay. Conspiracy theories.

[Esper Heaney]

They do, right? Exactly. It's. It's because so close.

[Dave DeFore]

Anything you want.

[Esper Heaney]

Exactly.

[Dave DeFore]

I can.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No, no. It makes way more sense than the reality that. Oh, well, the t. That team that had 1% chance to actually win it. That. Oh, come on.

[Dave DeFore]

But 1% is a million. I mean, it's. It's. It's a huge chance.

[Esper Heaney]

There was, what, 1,001 different combinations that could have happened. Yeah. And that was the comp. It's. People do bring up the basketball gods in this situation. And we, we talked about it on the pod. It's like they were. They work in mysterious ways. This was some sort of weird.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No one's working in a mysterious way. People are pulling strings. Come on, basketball.

[Esper Heaney]

I do.

[Dave DeFore]

I, I. It would to me. Look, and I. I've been on the record with this. If, If I was Adam Silver, if I was the commissioner, I would absolutely rig the lottery.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He's done a good job.

[Dave DeFore]

I would rig it every single year. I, I mean, I, I just. Oh, if there was, like, what's a cool, fun team that is one piece away from being, like, in the playoffs, like, for you guys, right? Like, oh, I don't know.

[Esper Heaney]

The Wizards are Cooper Flag away.

[Dave DeFore]

Sure. The Wizards were Cooper Flag away, let's say. Okay, but are they cool and fun? I don't know, but they could be, right? Okay, let's throw them a bone. Maybe they don't get the first pick, but they need a guard. Give them the second pick. I. I would do that. Victor Women. Yama to the spurs, you know, like. But then it's like.

[Esper Heaney]

It's like.

[Dave DeFore]

I agree.

[Esper Heaney]

That is perfect. The fact that that happened, that also felt. You know what? I'm. That you could. You could believe everyone. You could just believe anything. Anything.

[Dave DeFore]

We could make it. We could go through. You know, that's a redraft idea. Let's do a podcast where we go back and we bake a conspiracy for every single number one pick.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I feel like we could.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay.

[Esper Heaney]

I Have a conspiracy for the Andrea Bariani draft.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You really?

[Esper Heaney]

Yes, absolutely. They knew that the draft was going to be terrible. They're like, you know what? Let's. Let's give it to the Toronto Raptors because we know this number one pick is not going to be anything consequent.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Same with the Hawks. Same with the Hawks. With Bresh.

[Esper Heaney]

There you go.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know what? Hey, Hawks.

[Dave DeFore]

Honestly, that's how you should rig it. Risa Shay is going to be a. A what? A third, fourth best starter on. On the Hawks in a couple years. That's what they need. They don't need to. To have Cooper Flag.

[Esper Heaney]

I have a really wild idea.

[Dave DeFore]

They have talent.

[Esper Heaney]

What if, what if instead of a lottery, they did like these pitches? Like, I don't know if you guys have deca in America. Deca is like a business, business thing where you go out in tournaments and they, they like pitch these ideas.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Are you a deca guy?

[Esper Heaney]

I was a deca guy. That makes sense.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I could totally see that. I love that.

[Esper Heaney]

Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It makes me like it even more.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, you.

[Esper Heaney]

You get up in a little suit and tie and you're like, well, this presentation, NBA teams should do that for the lottery, you know.

[Dave DeFore]

Can I expound on that?

[Esper Heaney]

Yes, go for it.

[Dave DeFore]

I thought about this a lot. Okay. What you could do is a salary scale instead of a draft lottery. Worst record, you get to offer the most money in a rookie contract. And then the players.

[Esper Heaney]

Is that enough of an incentive, though?

[Dave DeFore]

Well, depends if you're. If you're Cooper Flag and you know, the Wizards come and they say, hey, we can give you $30 million a year, four year contract. It's guaranteed as a rookie.

[Esper Heaney]

Not bad.

[Dave DeFore]

Or you're. You're playing for the minimum or, you know, whatever.

[Esper Heaney]

The minimum for the Lakers sucks. But it is a free market endorsement.

[Dave DeFore]

It's not meant to distribute talent. It's not meant to because the best organizations are gonna. Are gonna.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's the problem. That's the problem I have with all of this. Like, hey, we need to change it. I mean, here's the deal. No matter what happens, people are going to want to change it.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No, there's no. There's no perfect system.

[Dave DeFore]

And so they voted 291 for the current odds and they really hate it.

[Esper Heaney]

And one team.

[Andrew Schlecht]

The one team, though, the one guy that was right.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Sam Presti was right. Listen, that's the next T shirt.

[Dave DeFore]

Andrew.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, we had a sampress shirt a long time ago.

[Dave DeFore]

Sam Presti was right. Would be a good one. If they win.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That would be a good one.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That would kind of rock.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. I mean, I just, I think that the pro. The biggest problems with the NBA is like, there's not a fair and equitable way to get stars to small markets.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And like, that's what the lottery is. Is basically for.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Get these markets that can't get these big name players a chance to have them at least for eight years. You know, like, that's what this is for. When you start to, like, kind of peel back these layers and everything, it becomes even harder to accomplish that. And so, like, that's. That's the system that's built. Yes. No one loves tanking, but there's trade offs with everything that you put in place. So I don't know, what if you.

[Dave DeFore]

Just flattened the lottery completely? Right. And maybe it was. I'm.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I hate that.

[Dave DeFore]

I'd say all 30 because. Because you think that the bad teams deserve some sort of a chance to, to get talent. I. I guess because of the fact that small markets can't attract.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Separate yourself. Like, that's the problem is like, you need to be able to separate yourself to, to give yourself a chance to get those players.

[Dave DeFore]

But there's a lot of teams that get stuck in the middle. Right. That's the thing. You get stuck in the middle because, like, you take a guy and he's not, you know, he's deandre Ayton.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, that's. And you're stuck. Right.

[Esper Heaney]

Like, I've seen a lot of people bring up the Pistons. They're like, well, look, the Pistons the last four or five years got the fifth pick, Right. Every single year it's like, well, it's not the fifth pick that is making them what they are right now. It's the number one pick, the Cade Cunningham.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Esper Heaney]

That changed their situation. I don't think anybody's gonna go around saying, oh, well, the spurs with Devin Vassell and Keldon Johnson and these guys were anything. It was Victor Wembanyama who changed their franchise. So I'm like. I'm like looking at past drafts, even 2022, which is like the Paolo Chat draft.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Esper Heaney]

Top of the draft is great. There are gems in the first round you think of. Jalen Williams obviously was in that draft for Oklahoma City. You know, Tari Eason for the Houston Rockets was in there. Christian Brown was 20th. Those are good players. Jalen Williams obviously became an all star, but it's few and far between compared to the top 10, which was Paulo, Chet. You know, obviously they. Jaden Ivy will see what happens. Dyson Daniels, Shaden. Like the. The caliber of player.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Changes. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

The other thing is top five picks don't win a lot of titles with the team that draft them.

[Esper Heaney]

Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They haven't in a while. What was the last top five pick that swung an NBA title?

[Dave DeFore]

Well, I mean, the Celtics last year. Right. Like with Tatum and Brown.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, that's probably the last one. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Is there another one? Trying to think what was the last number one pick?

[Dave DeFore]

Man, let's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Swung it.

[Dave DeFore]

LeBron. You know, I think Anthony Davis.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, not for their team. Not for his team. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, that's. That's the thing that's funny about this is like, there's so much hand wringing about the number one pick. Right. And the number one pick has in the past been the thing, like, the catalyst for all these. Like, you have your Tim Duncan's and you have Shaquille o' Neal and all these players that truly did swing everything.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But it's been a while, I guess.

[Esper Heaney]

Kyrie is probably 2011. Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Everybody doesn't win it if LeBron doesn't go back.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

It's a different world, though. Like, the talent curve is so different now than it was in the 90s. And I mean, even the early 2000s, like, just players are so much better. Right. Like, so your bottom. The bottom of the draft has come up closer to the top of the draft, which is. That's. That's another thing that's at play here. Right. And it's part of why we have so much parity in the NBA is that there's. I mean, there's so many good role players like Aaron Neesmith. Right. Like, this guy, he gets drafted by Danny Ainge just because of his body.

[Esper Heaney]

Yep.

[Dave DeFore]

And he turns himself into this kind of player. So it's just. I. I don't know. I do think it's tough because these small markets cannot compete. Like, they just can't. Like, no one's signing in Charlotte ever.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. That's.

[Esper Heaney]

They just have to draft better, man. They just have to hope that, like, I don't know, Derek Queen or Trey Johnson or whoever, they end up picking at 567 is better than Dylan Harper or Ace.

[Dave DeFore]

I actually think, you know what, the teams that get out of that, you know what they're the best at is pro personnel scouting. They're the ones that fight like Ty Jerome. You know what I mean? They find those guys.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, okay. This guy just Needs more of an opportunity.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Not a great time to bring Tiger, by the way.

[Esper Heaney]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Not the best like, but the NBA has gotten bad at that because it. It doesn't. It's not incentivized. There's no incentive to go out and make your team better with existing talent when you can sell this hope of a tank. And like unfortunately that's just kind of. It makes sense because if you land Cooper flag, you've made hundreds of millions of dollars for your business.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

So I understand it. Like it's not, it's. It's. There's nothing sexy about going out and getting Davion Mitchell.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know. Oh, hey, you know, like Andrew Wiggins could be available this summer and he could make us a much better team. But Yeah. I don't know. The Wizards. Right.

[Esper Heaney]

Like there's certain teams that thrive on that. Right. Like the Grizzlies do a good job of that. The Heat do a good job.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Unless players though, like those players that fill around these top guys. But you still have to have a mechanism to get the top guys and you can't. You can't really farm those guys.

[Dave DeFore]

Indiana. Indiana has done a very good job of building very unique Cleveland too right now. Cleveland, Cleveland starting from Nothing. Right after LeBron left.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

So there is a path there to. To doing it. But those are franchises that are just run better, you know.

[Esper Heaney]

But man. Got to it. Top five picks and Darius, I was gonna say.

[Dave DeFore]

Right, right. That's fair.

[Esper Heaney]

They traded for Jared out.

[Dave DeFore]

They.

[Esper Heaney]

They were opportunistic in the Jared album.

[Dave DeFore]

Although Charlotte also has two top five picks.

[Esper Heaney]

It's true. Yeah. I mean look, Lamello and Brandon Miller, it's like, it's cool. But they. They have not.

[Dave DeFore]

Is it cool?

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think it is. I think it is. I still think it's cool. I think I just. I just. Who do you like it for? For them.

[Dave DeFore]

I. I haven't done any drugs.

[Esper Heaney]

I would. I mean like, I think for them it's like you pray that VJ Edgecomb is there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's so good. Would be so good for them.

[Dave DeFore]

What does he do?

[Esper Heaney]

He's a two way defensive monster. Crazy athlete. Not a crazy guy who can like create for you offensively. But that's Lamello and Brandon Miller's job anyways. He can take advantage of the openings that they create. You know, people have done like the Victor Oladipo comp. I'm not necessarily there yet. I don't think he has the like creative juice offensively off the bounce. But like As a two way guy, at minimum, he can be like a really, really good wing.

[Dave DeFore]

Can he, can he be a finisher? Yeah. And a slasher?

[Esper Heaney]

Absolutely.

[Dave DeFore]

Because that's where Oladipo was at his best. Like, when you put the ball in his hands, it actually wasn't great.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Only like that.

[Dave DeFore]

Indiana J Dub, Right? Like, you want J Dub to be able to play off of Shea.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. It's almost weird, though, at the rim. I don't really, I, I can't put my finger on why he couldn't finish.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, right. He was like, you have small hands. Maybe. I don't know. Man, the combine, there's been so many numbers. Do you guys, do you guys think the NBA, like, NBA teams believe in that type of stuff as much as we? Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. Because it's one of the few things that when you get them and you know they're accurate, that you actually know, you can say, right, I know this guy has a 7:2 wingspan. I know his vertical is this. Right. Like, I mean, those little things really do.

[Esper Heaney]

They do matter. Yeah, I know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. I remember when the Raptors were drafting Scotty Barnes, one of the, they like, dropped a video after they drafted him, and it was them measuring his hand, and it was the largest hand that they had measured since Kawhi.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

And they were like, that was a big thing for them. It's like the dude has massive hands, you know, which is apparently a huge thing for finishing at the basket. Like you said with VJ Edgecomb. Yeah. Maybe he has small hands. Maybe that's it.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm gonna ask, actually. Yeah, I, I, I, I have, I have a measurement guy.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, but that could be, that could also, that could also be like a Mori guy, you know, because Daryl Mori likes his like two ways type defensive guys, and that would work really well with Philly, you know, so, I don't know.

[Dave DeFore]

Interesting. You, you think that he would go there, Bailey?

[Esper Heaney]

I think Ace could drop. Do you think? I feel like Ace could drop just because a lot of people thought he was like the 610. You talked about measurables. People thought this, this guy was like a 610 shot creator, MPGA type. And measuring out to be like 6, 7, you know, looks pretty regular compared to what people thought he was. So maybe there's a chance he drops.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, that's why I'm telling you that stuff matters.

[Esper Heaney]

That stuff. Yeah, Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, there's a, I've got a buddy, Mike Weisenberg, who covers the draft, and he actually goes to Prep events and he gets measurements. Oh, he's. He's there doing, like, height, weight, vertical. Because these guys want to know and, you know, it's a good way to get information, and teams really want to know that stuff. If you. Actually, the truth is, if people ask me how to get into, like, basketball. You want to work in basketball, go out to high level middle school tournaments and start with a tape measure and get started. That's. That's the. Where the curve is on. On, like scouting players.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Right now.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Is 8th graders.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What do you think about Khan measuring 5? That's another guy that's like, con. Con. Can apple somebody that people like. I think he's risen up a bunch of draft boards, but like six, five without shoes. Six, six wingspan.

[Dave DeFore]

Can he shoot it enough?

[Esper Heaney]

He's a really good shooter.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dave DeFore]

On the move.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, he's. He's either the best or second best shooter.

[Dave DeFore]

I think I saw. I saw one game this year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I like him. I think he can really play.

[Esper Heaney]

He would have been a great pick for okc. If they had kept that pick. That would have been. Yeah, that would have made a lot of sense.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, he. The Thunder. I mean, now that he's only measuring at 6, 5, there's, like numbers like 6, 7, you know, floating around, I think.

[Dave DeFore]

See? Okay, but functional height, right? Like, what's his shoulder height? What's his. What's his wingspan? What's his standing reach? Like, this is.

[Andrew Schlecht]

The wingspan is six, six standing room, eight and a half feet.

[Dave DeFore]

So he's. I mean, he's six, six functionally on a basketball court.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I think wingspan is more important than.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Short neck.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No, no, he doesn't.

[Dave DeFore]

I just tried to make at this point, but that's true.

[Esper Heaney]

Like.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I'm into that.

[Dave DeFore]

I like. I mean. Yeah, it really is a real thing. Like, you ever watch a guy play and he's got. It looks like he's got high hips. That's real.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, I know.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, Thawne Maker, I call it high hips. High, high hips. You never get.

[Esper Heaney]

Poku was a high hip, Scott.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. You never. So, you know, think about how you have to play. It's all. You can only really face up. You're never gonna back anybody down. You're gonna be. You're gonna be a. Like, it's gonna be hard for you to guard in the paint. Like, you're. Especially if you're a big and you've got high hips. So, you know, like, this stuff the Biomechanics matter. That's what I mean. If you want, like a. If you're drafting a guy and you're looking for a shooter, short arms.

[Esper Heaney]

Let me ask you guys this, because there's been. There's been some conversation about Cooper and, like, how he would fit in Dallas with what they do, because they had. Obviously, I think they would. He would fit really well next to Anthony Davis, obviously. But there's also the question of, like, all right, where does that leave Lively? Where does that leave Gafford? Where does that leave PJ Washington? Do they make more trades? Because they have to extend or pay a few of those guys? You think Cooper can play the three? Can he play the three and have AD Be the four and then Gafford or Lively be the five? Can that.

[Dave DeFore]

Where's that spacing coming from?

[Esper Heaney]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, that's the problem is space and creation is like, that's going to be their biggest problem next year is. Is those things. I mean, if, in all honesty, if I'm them, I'm trading Anthony Davis. I know they're not going to do it. I know they're not going to do it, but that. Here's. Here's the things that I would do. There's. There's some hilarious.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, is Nico going to survive? Like, I. Does Nico make it to. To even make these decisions is number one thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like, you shouldn't. But I think he will.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know. I think we're all, like, a little too comfortable with the idea that he's not getting out of there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Shouldn't. What if Nico calls.

[Dave DeFore]

Calls fix the draft?

[Andrew Schlecht]

No, no. What if he calls Roblinka and he's.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, hey, oh, no.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What about the number one pick in all of. The pick. Then the pick that you gave me for Luca Doncic, and then it's with the Lakers.

[Esper Heaney]

I feel like the Lakers would at least consider it.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think you'd have to think about it. You'd have to think about it. So.

[Dave DeFore]

No way.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No way. Like, all right, now we're pro wrestling.

[Dave DeFore]

That's. Yeah. I was gonna say that's like, you know. You ever know anybody who got divorced and then got remarried to. To their ex.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes. And got. Yeah. Gotten back together and you're just like.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, that's what that would be.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's like, what. What are we doing this for?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But then he gets. He gets Luca and Anthony Davis. I do think that they should consider trading AD100, because I do like the fit with him and Lively with Coop and Lively. Like, I Love that. And then go lively. Yeah. Go get somebody that can create.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, man, imagine if they had, like, you know, like, Hub.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're not going to do it. They're absolutely not going to do it. But you know what? He should. Yeah, he should absolutely trade Anthony Davis today. But defense wins championships, man. Yeah, he's not going to do that.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, they're. The thing is they're not going to be as good because, you know, Kyrie's going to be out.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, we're.

[Dave DeFore]

They're going to get to. To play guard.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's.

[Esper Heaney]

That's what I'm saying. They should. They should make a trip. Like they should. I would say. I would call Rob Palinka and be like, hey, hey, Derek Lively for Austin Reeves. There you go.

[Dave DeFore]

Or no, no, no.

[Esper Heaney]

Daniel Gafford.

[Dave DeFore]

Daniel Gaffford. You know what? That's not enough for Lakers for Austin Reeves.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, absolutely not.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. It's got to be more. More than that. I don't think Dallas has the. The like, lively, maybe.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Livelier, lively.

[Dave DeFore]

But I'm not giving up lively. But Nico might. I don't know. You never know. It's a. It's a weird situation, but I do think, like, the smart move would be move. It's similar to what you've got. Like. Like Boston has a similar kind of situation. Right. Like, Kyrie's gonna be out next season most of the year. And. And what's he going to look like right when he comes back? Probably not great if we're judging on history.

[Esper Heaney]

Yep.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. So next year is probably. It's. If it's not a lost season, you're in the play in. In the west at best.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're in the plan this year.

[Dave DeFore]

That's what I mean. Right. So you're right back where you were. So does that make any sense? Anthony Davis is 31. He'll be 30 next year's 30. Age, 32 season. So by the time you're even thinking about actually be competitive, it's a whole nother calendar year. He's 33. You're about to sign him to another max because that's just how the NBA works. And your competitive window is already closed.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Because kyrie's gonna be 36 when he comes back. 35.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This is why.

[Dave DeFore]

Gotta do it. Got to do it. And then when you bring Kyrie back in February, March to just show, hey, look, this guy. Guess what? His legs work. He's Kyrie. Right. And you get that nice little Hope that hope run where Cooper flag. He solidifies his rookie of the year case. Derek Lively looks great again because you're. They're playing with Kyrie. Everybody goes into the summer, move Kyrie. And now you're ready to actually restart. And you've got these two guys in Lively and Cooper Flag that are going to bring you to a level of defense that most young teams never hit. Yeah, I. I just. I think that Andrew, like, I know it's a funny thing to say, like, oh, they should move Dave. Absolutely. The right basketball move is to trade Anthony Davis.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No question, man.

[Esper Heaney]

I mean, I. I actually really love that argument, but there's just no way. There's just no way.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, like would. I mean, with the Knicks do something. I don't know. I'm looking in the East. Right. I think that, that if you're, if you're Dallas, you're calling up some of these Eastern Conference teams and you're selling them on the idea Anthony Davis could get you to the Eastern Conference finals or to the finals. If you look at it next year, right. Like, Boston's out of it.

[Esper Heaney]

You know who AD would be sick with? The Pacers. My God, would the Pacers be awesome with Anthony Davis?

[Dave DeFore]

Swap Turner.

[Esper Heaney]

No. Take mountain. You could. Whatever you want to do, whatever the.

[Dave DeFore]

Those above the break threes with Miles Turner.

[Esper Heaney]

But they are massive.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But would you. Would you trade them hard?

[Dave DeFore]

Nope.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, it's kind of tough. That's where the. That's where the issue.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's the thing, though. That's the thing about any of these trades that we're talking about. The Anthony Davis, which are fictional and not going to happen. Yeah. You need a creator back.

[Esper Heaney]

Right?

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's the thing is like Nimhard.

[Esper Heaney]

I would.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, that's. That's something that I would consider.

[Dave DeFore]

Defense runs championships.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I'm telling you, it would be amazing. The problem is like, trading them out East. There's a lot of teams. I need creators, man. In the East.

[Esper Heaney]

If I'm looking at the East.

[Dave DeFore]

Brooklyn. Brooklyn.

[Esper Heaney]

Brooklyn, yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Brooklyn would do it.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, sure they would. What player do they have to trade? That's the problem.

[Dave DeFore]

Traffic.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They don't have it. That's the problem. Like, if I'm Dallas, I want. I would like to have a guy, somebody coming back that can create a little bit. Brooklyn's got Cam Johnson is like the only valuable player on their team.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, Claxton. But like, beyond those two, it's. They don't have any players. That's what that's what's such a bummer for them.

[Dave DeFore]

You need a young. You need a young creator.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

They. How many are there?

[Esper Heaney]

There's not that many.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You typically can't get them either.

[Esper Heaney]

Right. It's hard to get that guy.

[Dave DeFore]

Someone. You know what? Somebody in the chat made a joke about Tyler Hero. Yeah, that would be. Now, that would be the funniest three. Yes, now that would be the funniest thing is. Yeah. You trade for time. I mean, but, you know, that's unrealistic.

[Andrew Schlecht]

All Star. All Star. Tyler.

[Dave DeFore]

He's an All Star. You know, how many teams would want Anthony Davis just in the league? Okay.

[Esper Heaney]

A lot.

[Dave DeFore]

10. 12, right?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Chicago, for sure.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, now, hold on.

[Esper Heaney]

Kobe White.

[Dave DeFore]

Now, that is.

[Esper Heaney]

But you need more than just Kobe White. But.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's Chicago. Come on. They're gonna give you the farm, right? Can we. Can. Are we allowed to borrow future draft picks from 50 years from now to get Anthony Davis? I do think the Chicago would be interesting. And. And honestly, he could play next to V. That works pretty nicely.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You'd kind of like to.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. And giddy, you know, Give giddy.

[Esper Heaney]

To your point, if someone in the east is like, man, we're one piece away. You know, we're like, that's my thing. Orlando. I don't know. Orlando's like, hey, let's get.

[Dave DeFore]

I think that's a trickier one.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, it is. But, like, I'm thinking of a team that's decent enough.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. I mean, what about. I mean, you. You have to rope some other teams in. But, like, would the Sixers want to trade Paul George for Anthony Davis in some sort of a way that sends Paul George. Not to Dallas somewhere.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, Right. I mean, give me Maxi in Dallas, you know?

[Dave DeFore]

Well, and we don't know, like, maxi, though. Yeah, no, but. But, like, ad Next to Embiid, if Embiid's playing, you know.

[Esper Heaney]

Okay, look, look, this is funny, you guys bringing this up, though, because the East. The east is wide open next year, right? Absolutely. Wide open. Cleveland.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Well, maybe.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know. The Pacers. My pacers might win 65 games next year.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, maybe. Possibly. Nick will probably win a lot of games. Yeah. If they keep it together, they'll win, though. Those two are probably the two best teams other than Cleveland. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Cleveland's gonna. Yep.

[Esper Heaney]

Do the same thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

All right, we gotta stop talking about the East. Listen, okay.

[Esper Heaney]

I'm just saying, you know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I know. I know. It's. It is completely open because, like, no one is going to believe in the Cavaliers at all. They could win. They could win 75 games, and people.

[Dave DeFore]

Be like, they're the Atlanta Hawks.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Cool. Good job, everybody. You're gonna lose in the second round again. Yeah, it is. It is absolutely wide open. If you're an east executive, like, this is the time to be aggressive, you know?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Especially because you just need one year, you know, like you look at. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Well, here. Right, let's.

[Dave DeFore]

I think the Celtics are in an interesting position.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

We already heard. I mean, we know, like, their payroll is not sustainable.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

They have to get off these players. Horford, I don't know if he's going to retire or what.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Porzingis. I think they've got to move Porzingis and then Holiday. Should they. Should they try to reset?

[Andrew Schlecht]

It is the. It is. You would never want this to happen to yourself, but if you're the new ownership group, you've been kind of given a free pass.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You need to do. And just like essentially going to the next Jaylen Brown.

[Esper Heaney]

How big of a reset are you saying?

[Dave DeFore]

See, now, see, this is the question here, because is Jaylen Brown a part.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Absolutely.

[Dave DeFore]

The next version. You think so? Okay. Yes. Yes.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What else are you gonna do?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, it's hard to trade that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

How are you gonna get a player that's as good as Jaylen Brown?

[Esper Heaney]

Yanis.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, Giannis, Jalen Brown, all your picks.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's. That is a thing.

[Esper Heaney]

That is a thing. It is a thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What about Anthony Davis?

[Dave DeFore]

I don't think that Anthony Davis fits there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, the honest thing is intriguing.

[Esper Heaney]

I don't think that would happen. But I guess to your point, like, that's the type of upgrade.

[Dave DeFore]

What about.

[Esper Heaney]

To make.

[Dave DeFore]

What about. What about this? What about you play? I mean, I know that there's no way Dallas is trading that pick, but, man, I would have called Nico immediately and said, hey, how about Jalen Brown for number one pick?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Jalen Brown's really good.

[Dave DeFore]

He is really good, though. My point is that he is really good. He is the most valuable available. Not available, because I don't think he is actually available, but he would be the. The most valuable thing that the Celtics would have. And if you were gonna do a reboot, I think about the Herschel Walker trade a lot.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

For those of you who don't know, Herschel Walker was traded to. From Dallas, the Dallas Cowboys to the Minnesota Vikings for a huge hall of Picks that set the Cowboys up to win multiple titles and be competitive throughout the 90s right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You can talk about one that people actually know about.

[Dave DeFore]

They might know. Sorry, that one, you know, from my, from when I was a kid. So I would talk about Willie Mays.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Or whatever, but, you know, netted the Thunder. Shay.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, wait, let's do a Boston version of this. The Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce trade gave them Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum.

[Dave DeFore]

There you go. You know, so this is, this would be a thing. And the difference being Jalen Brown's in his prime.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, and so, but I just think like, Tatum is the star. The, the salaries, the, their payroll is crazy. This would be a, an interesting time for them to pivot. They were going to have to pivot anyway.

[Esper Heaney]

Okay, what if they pivot a different way? What if they trade Porzingis, trade Drew Holiday? Tatum is obviously out next season. Yeah, it's Derrick White and Jalen Brown next season with Peyton Pritchard and Xavier Tillman and whatever. And that's probably like, you're probably like a playing team maybe a little bit better than a playing team in these.

[Dave DeFore]

I think six seat, right. Five seed. I mean, it's the east, but what.

[Esper Heaney]

If they don't be a playoff team? What if they do the Mavericks thing or the warriors thing, you know, the gap year, right. Where it's like, let's go get Steph some help. Now they, they went and got James.

[Dave DeFore]

Wiseman, but yeah, Jalen Brown's gonna have.

[Esper Heaney]

Have a wrist surgery, right? Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

See, you can't have. Listen, you.

[Esper Heaney]

Why, why can't you tank?

[Dave DeFore]

I don't think Jalen Brown can miss a, have a, have a lost season in his prime. Do you know what I mean?

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's not ideal, but.

[Dave DeFore]

That would be an interesting idea. I mean, and then you come back the next season and you have whatever that draft pick winds up being, which. Yeah, they could turn into a player and then you have Derek or you can trade them for the new version of, of what you're making.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

And next year's draft is great too. And you get a chance at.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

You know, we just saw Dallas do it. Why not the Boston Celtics?

[Dave DeFore]

That.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, so let's go back to the lottery.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

All right. Who are the teams that are most sick to their stomachs? Let's do like a, just a, a throw up ranking of, of teams that are most sick to their stomach. After this lottery.

[Esper Heaney]

Utah's number one. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Gotta be.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Has got to be number one for many, many reasons.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Utah is in such a tough spot because one, they Don't. They don't have anybody to build around right now. Right. They have marketing. But beyond that, what other player on their roster would net a first round pick in a trade?

[Esper Heaney]

Honestly? No one.

[Dave DeFore]

Nobody?

[Esper Heaney]

You? No one. Yeah. Like maybe. Maybe Walker Kessler. Like a bad first round pick, it.

[Dave DeFore]

Would have to be a fake one. Right. And one that turns into two seconds or the 28th pick because, I mean, he's like on a bad team.

[Esper Heaney]

And has Dante George. Not you. A first round pick.

[Andrew Schlecht]

A first for Keonte.

[Esper Heaney]

I don't know if I would like.

[Andrew Schlecht]

If you're the Raptors.

[Esper Heaney]

No, see, yeah. No.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

They have no talent.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's that, that. I agree. They're number one in that they had the best odds. They fell to five. This is part of it. And now they got to go do the work. And the problem is, if you're a Jazz fan, they've not drafted well. No, like, they flat out have not drafted well.

[Esper Heaney]

No, they haven't like that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That, to me is the biggest issue is that now you have to rely on a team that's not done very well. And so like that. I mean, last year, Cody Williams at 10. The year before, Taylor Hendricks at 9, Keonte at 16.

[Esper Heaney]

That's the other guys last year could be okay, though. Like Filipowski.

[Andrew Schlecht]

A nice, like. Yeah, third big for somebody.

[Esper Heaney]

I'm trying to throw them a bone here. I'm not. You know, he's a plumber.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Collier is a tough one. I feel like he's a. I mean, I think he. He had some moments for them.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But it's hard to know what's real with him.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, it's the same thing as Keonce George.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's like both those guys, I just think it's. They're just in a really tough spot.

[Esper Heaney]

They need to be bad again next year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And they have no other choice.

[Esper Heaney]

Go through the exact same process that they did this year. And it's gonna stink for Jazz fans to watch that. But it's just. That's the world.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know, guys. I actually don't know.

[Esper Heaney]

You think they should go for someone?

[Dave DeFore]

Well, look, Cam. Boozer, you know, you gotta like, you gotta at least think about it. I love that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Future Modern says that Utah should sign Kaminga.

[Dave DeFore]

That's a great idea. That's a fun, great idea. I think he would do well there. He would.

[Esper Heaney]

I agree.

[Dave DeFore]

Him and. Him and Lowry.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Somebody has to score the points.

[Esper Heaney]

Exactly.

[Dave DeFore]

That's right. The. The thing is, though, that they just are at such a dearth for talent that there's no path to contention for them. So, like, the best team they could put together doesn't even make the play in.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Probably not in the West. That's the thing.

[Esper Heaney]

Absolutely not. No.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's the. That's the big. That's one of their biggest issues is that they're in the Western Conference.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

They petitioned to move.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They should.

[Esper Heaney]

You know what? Minnesota is going to move at some point when the expansion happens.

[Andrew Schlecht]

For sure. It's Minnesota.

[Esper Heaney]

It's either Minnesota or Memphis.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. I'm kind of a Memphis guy.

[Esper Heaney]

You're a Memphis guy. How about New Orleans?

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think I've told you this before. We have.

[Esper Heaney]

We have talked about this. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Tennessee touches a state that.

[Esper Heaney]

That is in the ocean. Yeah. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Come on. Let me ask you guys. Could. Could. Could Utah start slinging those picks around?

[Esper Heaney]

Sure. For what?

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, you could.

[Esper Heaney]

You know what? The one type of player that I think could make something interesting is like, if they go for Lamello, Trey Young, John Morant, one of those guys.

[Dave DeFore]

One of those guys that they definitely can't trade for.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They just. Because if you're the. If you're one of those teams, you need players back.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

We'll take Larry Markinen, Bradley Beal. Bradley.

[Dave DeFore]

Does Bradley be like skiing? I know he likes the nice weather in Phoenix, but how do you feel about ski.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Can you even ski?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. You're not allowed.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Not even allowed to ski. Even if he liked it.

[Dave DeFore]

How does he feel about sledding? How does he feel about cold weather?

[Esper Heaney]

So Utah is the worst. Utah is the.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Utah is. Is the team that I look at that I do not see a path.

[Dave DeFore]

They never should have traded. They never should have traded Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert. They should have just tried to keep him for as long or. Because they're never going to be into that. Like, how do they get there again without tanking into.

[Esper Heaney]

They have to tank. That's the only thing. It's. Just keep tanking until you get your guy. That's it. That's all.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They should have tanked harder in years past. And if you're. If you're going to spread that over three seasons, then you're going to have a much better chance of eventually landing in the spot that you want to land. But instead you do this soft tank.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That lands you at 9 and 23 and at 10 and 24, and that's your own fault. And then you pick the wrong guy in both drafts.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Maybe that's the lesson to take here, it's like, tank harder. Commit as hard as you possibly can for years.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think the thing is, like, commit to a plan, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, that's what it is.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Commit to a plan. Because you will die in the middle. You will die. That is where teams go to die is whenever you're picking 9th, 10th, 11th every single year, and you're just hoping that one of those guys turns into Shea or Kawhi or whoever else. Yep. And for Utah, they haven't done a good enough job to get that guy.

[Esper Heaney]

And so Chicago, the first team, I.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Thought it was absolutely. You have to commit. You just have to commit one way or the other. And if your commitment is, well, we'll just. We'll see what happens. And then in March, we'll just pull the plug. Well, then you're going to be picking ninth for the rest of the way because teams have already committed.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, and like, the problem is, like, the Jazz are in a bad spot, but they're, you know, they're picking fifth this year because they did commit, you know, and eventually you're going to find somebody, you know, in that spot or you're going to land at number one. I mean, look at. We mentioned Detroit. Detroit has been in a bad spot for a while, but they're coming out of this with Cade and Asar Thompson. Right. Like, you have to feel pretty good about that. We'll see what Jaden Ivy brings to the table. But they have guys like you get a first round pick for all the guys that we just mentioned.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, Detroit was able to sign these role players that they got because.

[Esper Heaney]

They had some hope, because they had some infrastructure.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, they committed and a lot of people dogged on them, including me.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But they figured it out and it's because they committed to a. A plan. Like, this is our plan.

[Esper Heaney]

Years of. We are going to be.

[Dave DeFore]

We could argue they were like, they were a year behind because of Monty Williams.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, for sure. 100. Yeah. Yeah, I will. Can I just say before we make our second pick here that I will pitch that it should not be the Washington Wizards. I do not think the Washington. Oh, second pick in the worst thing draft.

[Dave DeFore]

No, they're fine.

[Esper Heaney]

I actually think it's like, they have a pretty decent group.

[Dave DeFore]

They will.

[Esper Heaney]

They draft pretty well, actually. And at 6, they'll be able to find a guy, whatever that guy could be for them. So I'm actually not. I'm not that sad. If I'm a Wizards fan. I am sad. I'm a Little bit sad that I.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Don'T get one or two should definitely be sad. But the turnover, the new regime, things.

[Esper Heaney]

Have been better, gone well.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And they've committed. Like, I think that. That.

[Esper Heaney]

Exactly.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Alex Sar. Bub Carrington. Those are guys that you're like, okay, like, I. I like all those guys. I believe they can find somebody, you know, to join.

[Esper Heaney]

Probably gonna do it again next year.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Well, they're gonna just be bad, right?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, no matter what, they're just not. They don't have enough talent. They're going to be bad. And so they have to lean in. But they're developing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, Star was a different player by the end of the year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. And Will Dawkins knows how to do this. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

They just started the tear down. This is, by the way, amazing job security.

[Esper Heaney]

Is to start the tear down.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, listen, let me tell you, I've been here three years tearing it down. We haven' Started the tear down s. Listen, this is like a seven year program that we're on. Yeah. Judge me Year eight, guys. Just judge me in year eight.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And it may. And it. I mean, it could backfire. I mean, we saw Troy Weaver, who's another Presti guy.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It completely backfired on him in Detroit until.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. But that was for different reasons. Right. Like, I mean, it was. That's. If you just. If you. If you hire.

[Esper Heaney]

We've been drafted. Well, I'm just saying. I know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think you have. You have to have luck along the way. And there were things that Weaver did that were not great.

[Esper Heaney]

For sure. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Also, shout out to the previous Wizards regime for. For going out, taking Johnny Davis before. Everything just crumbled for them.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

At 10.

[Dave DeFore]

Shout out contract.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Bradley Bill contract. I like what they're doing now, though. Sorry.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, no, no, I think. I think you. There's hope. There's hope that exists there for Wizards fans today. And, you know, picking six is not ideal, but if you get a Jeremiah Fears or Con Can Nipple or one of those guys, I feel like their roster is set up in a way where they can just kind of take on whatever they need.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Who can they talk into?

[Esper Heaney]

Jordan Pool, Dallas.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay.

[Esper Heaney]

You, You. You're picking up what I'm throwing down, Andrew. You know, get a guard in there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It is. I mean, it doesn't play defense.

[Esper Heaney]

You don't. It's all good. You got the other guys, they're not.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Trying to win a championship next year.

[Dave DeFore]

That's right.

[Esper Heaney]

So Jordan Pool for. I don't know. I guess Gafford, P.J. washington. Someone 1 of those two? I don't know.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know. We could talk Dallas.

[Esper Heaney]

I know, I know.

[Dave DeFore]

Is that what it is?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Two years, over 60 million left.

[Dave DeFore]

What if. What if Jordan Poole was in Orlando?

[Esper Heaney]

I would like that as well. I think that would be fun.

[Dave DeFore]

That would work.

[Esper Heaney]

You don't like. I. I say get any guard. Anybody who could dribble on the Orlando.

[Dave DeFore]

Somebody said Colin Sexton in the chat and I actually think that he would be great coming off the bench in Orlando. Orlando, yeah, sure.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

But he can't be the starter.

[Esper Heaney]

No, he's not the full time starter.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, pool could start there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Listen, you still need a tank commander if you're the Wizards, you know, like who's gonna do that now?

[Esper Heaney]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot. Also they have Marcus Smart and Chris Middleton just like there. So that's also.

[Dave DeFore]

They're not gonna be there.

[Esper Heaney]

You think they'll trade him? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean those are nice trade ships. I mean this is who's second week.

[Esper Heaney]

Washington is not second.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean for me it's Brooklyn.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, I agree.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And they're kind of doing the, the quasi tank thing.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, they're doing the Utah thing. Yeah, they're.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're Utah east right now. And that they 1. They both have good coaches, great job on the hires. It's looking pretty good there, but like void of talent. They're. They're in a probably a worse spot in my opinion than. Than Utah is because like who. Okay, so name me their top three young players.

[Dave DeFore]

Claxton.

[Esper Heaney]

Claxton.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Is he young on the second contract?

[Dave DeFore]

Right. That's the thing.

[Esper Heaney]

It's like maybe Noah Clowney.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, let's look up Noah Clowney stats. Hold on.

[Dave DeFore]

No, they don't have any talent.

[Esper Heaney]

Young player. Does Cam Thomas still count as a.

[Dave DeFore]

Young Thomas and a bunch of scrubs?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Sure.

[Esper Heaney]

Okay. Cam Thomas, Nick Claxton, Zaire Williams. That's my final three, Wolf. That's my final three.

[Dave DeFore]

That's my thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's. I think that's worse than Utah's.

[Dave DeFore]

Are they, are they the team that makes a bad trade this summer?

[Esper Heaney]

You could sell yourself on that, but I think that would be more dumb than just tanking another year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like the thing about that is you make a trade for. For a good player. You are so far away.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Because you have no talent. That's the most talent void team and everybody talks about, man, the league is so talented. The Nets are over here. Like what are you talking about?

[Esper Heaney]

They play so hard, though. They play wildly hard, which is what their quality was last season.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's. That's really cool. I'm really happy for them. But it leads to them being in no man's land, at least them being an absolute no man's land. I mean, it's. It's. It's kind of a problem. Like, they. They need to. I mean, I don't know, maybe you keep Cam Johnson at this point just because he is, like, one of the only talented people on your team, you know? But it's rough. Like, you got Delo redux going on here. I mean, I don't know.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, Yeah, I. I think I. You agree. I agree that it's. It's Brooklyn number two. Who's three be the wraps? I don't know.

[Dave DeFore]

Maybe Charlotte.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I mean, Charlotte's had some luck in the lottery recently.

[Dave DeFore]

Charlie has some talent.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, yeah, they have talent. They have guys that you would trade first for.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Andrew Schlecht]

If you're doing that test, you know, the Raptors did, like, the quasi Tank thing that we're. That we've been talking about.

[Esper Heaney]

They did, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like, kind of in no man's land. Their roster is so weird.

[Dave DeFore]

It's a mess.

[Esper Heaney]

It is a weird roster, but it's been a mess.

[Dave DeFore]

It's been a mess for years now.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

With no direction like you. You look at their roster for the last three or four years, and it's gone. I don't know. It went from this project, you know, 6, 9 thing.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

To Vision 6 9. That's right.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Project 610 is actually working in Orlando. Right. Like, because they got good players.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

That's the thing about the Raptors is, like, they commit to, like, Emmanuel quickly.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Who was racing to give him that money?

[Esper Heaney]

Nobody, really. Yeah. They weren't competing against anybody. They were just being nice.

[Dave DeFore]

Is there. Is there some kind of scam going on with the Raptors?

[Esper Heaney]

I think they have. I think, you know, the Brandon Ingram trade, to me, is an indication that they have a lot of pressure to become a playoff team quicker than they probably want to themselves. Like, they. The. There's probably pressure from ownership to get them to a certain level, be a playoff team next season. And I think now, especially with the rest of the east, you could probably sell yourself on this team being, like a top eight team in the east just because of the way it is. Yeah, I think you could. I mean, look like they were. They're gonna get another nine pick here or whatever. Ninth overall pick. That's gonna be a. That's gonna be a guy. I don't know if he's gonna play. We'll see. But they're starting five plus whatever rotation players that they have next year is decent enough to be able to be a competitive team in the east next year. I think that's. That's their goal. At least that is their goal next season.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Who's your guy? Who's your guy? At nine?

[Esper Heaney]

I don't know. I'm like, whatever falls to them. At this point. I would. I think Derek Queen would be a lot of fun. That would be a lot of fun for me. I am starting to sell myself on this Colin Murray Boyles guy.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

But like, the. The dude for me would be Derek Queen.

[Andrew Schlecht]

If they're Queen. All gas, no brakes.

[Esper Heaney]

All gas, no brakes. Yep. Yeah, he's just fun. I think he's just a cool player. They like to run a lot of high post stuff with the playmaking with Jakob and Scotty. He just fits exactly what they need from. From a big man spot. Even though I know there's a lot of like, come on. Malawatch talk because it's ginormous and he's obviously like, very specifically like a Maasai type guy.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

But I don't know. I'm not necessarily sold.

[Dave DeFore]

At some point. At some point, you got to just get the best player.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, totally.

[Dave DeFore]

That's it. That's. The Toronto Raptors. Just need to take the best player every single year instead of like trying to find some archetype.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

That doesn't actually exist.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, otherwise, like, what's the point? Like, they are just gonna spin. They're the Chicago Bulls north of the border.

[Esper Heaney]

To me, I think they're better than.

[Dave DeFore]

Bulls One look, they got Kawhi Leonard in. In one of the luckiest trades ever. And if they don't win that title, I think we all feel completely differently about how the Raptors have been.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, absolutely. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

And so, you know, but the last few years, it's just a mess, man. Like, it's just. It's such a weird basketball team and I don't even know what they're trying to accomplish anymore.

[Esper Heaney]

They became too, like you said, mental with like Fred Pascal, OG Those guys, they held too long for those. Right. Like, Andrew Nemhardt was on the table for Pascal Siakam last summer. They decided. Or two summers ago.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

They decided not to trade him. And now you look back and you're like, Andrew Nemhardt would be pretty great on this Raptors team.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

They had an option to trade for dejante Murray, which was another thing. I'm not necessarily in love with that, but that's. Whatever. That was an option. They had an offer for three picks for OG Anunoby. Three picks. And Boyan Bogdanovich from the Knicks before they traded him for RJ Barrett and Emmanuel Clark. Quickly. There's, like, Fred Van Bleet. They had an offer for first and a second. Like, those things were there, and they didn't necessarily.

[Dave DeFore]

The Raptors may have the hardest path to building a team, period. Because they're in Canada. Right. Like that. That actually does make it more difficult.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, it does. It totally does. You have to be so good at drafting, and you have to be as opportunistic as possible. Like, you have. Yeah. And you have to be ready to trade at all. I think that's one of the things that's helping them here is, like, they have a lot of salaries that they can trade, and they have all their picks, so if there is a dude that they like, they can try and go out and get them.

[Dave DeFore]

Would Giannis. Would Giannis do Toronto?

[Esper Heaney]

I mean, I don't know what the. The trade would be unless you're including Scotty.

[Dave DeFore]

It has to include Scotty.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

So Milwaukee.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. And so it's like, Scotty and your picks. Yeah, that's. That's the version of the trade. I just. I don't. I don't know if the Raptors would be down. Honestly, I don't know if they'd be down. It's like, because. Because it's like the Nets thing, it's like, are they close to competing if they trade?

[Dave DeFore]

Do they. Do they have enough?

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're way closer than the Nets.

[Esper Heaney]

They are way closer than the Nets. Yes. But are they close enough? Are they, like, do we feel like we have a chance next season with Jason Tatum out and all that type of stuff to trade?

[Dave DeFore]

Maybe.

[Esper Heaney]

I. I don't know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, maybe. But then, like, why are you trading for Brandon Ingram?

[Esper Heaney]

Like, what, do you just want to make the playoffs? They just want gate revenue. They would like to.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Again, why did you trade for Brandon Ingram, then, if that's what you want?

[Dave DeFore]

All that success down in New Orleans, and they said, yeah, we need a taste, man.

[Esper Heaney]

His ankle, man. Yeah, there was. There was some stuff, but I think.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What does that mean? What does that mean?

[Esper Heaney]

I mean, he was out for months, and it wasn't the tanking. It wasn't like they were just holding him back for tank purposes. Yeah, it was like, we need to build out a long term plan for this guy to be healthy with his ankle, you know?

[Dave DeFore]

Is he gonna. He gets an extension this summer, right?

[Esper Heaney]

He already got an extension.

[Dave DeFore]

He got the exact. Okay. I was. I couldn't remember whether he was due one or. He got it.

[Esper Heaney]

He got this.

[Dave DeFore]

That's insane to hear. I didn't, I didn't hear anything about this.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Dave, when you have the chance to lock Raptors core, you do it. You take it.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, my God. The Raptors are. The Raptors are the saddest franchise, man.

[Esper Heaney]

They're going to be a playoff team next year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're not the status team. They're not the saddest. They're in the East. They actually have talent. They have guys that you get a first for.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Saddest team.

[Dave DeFore]

They're sad.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're the weirdest team, though.

[Esper Heaney]

They are weird. There's. They are undeniably a strange basketball.

[Dave DeFore]

What's the basketball direction of the, of the franchise? Right. Like, I mean, there's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Who.

[Dave DeFore]

You're not building around Scotty Barnes because he's not that guy.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's. Let's acquire all the players that people probably don't want to trade for.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. And then hope that they become a little bit better so that they can trade them for. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Manual quickly. A five year, 130 million dollar contract.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Just in case.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. I used, I used to do these kind of trades on 2K back in the day where I was like, you know what? I could get that guy? Like, he's, he's. You have to spend that much to get him. Let's just bring him on. He's talented. And then like, you get this team where it's like, I have a Yaka Portal or RJ Barrett, Brandon Ingram, Emmanuel quickly. Like, what did I do? I gotta start over. Reset, you know?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What have I done? How did I get here? That's. That's how it feels. Okay, so anybody else that should be feeling bad about the position that they're in?

[Dave DeFore]

Man, I, you know, honestly, I. I don't, I don't.

[Esper Heaney]

How about my Bulls?

[Dave DeFore]

I mean. Yeah, the Bulls, probably. The Bulls had it bad. You know, they lose the, they lose the coin flip, that becomes the Mavs.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Number one pick because of that Josh G. Yeah. Shot that went down.

[Dave DeFore]

And they're gonna. And then they're gonna pay Josh. Kitty.

[Esper Heaney]

They're gonna pay Josh getting more than Emmanuel quickly, by the way. They're definitely gonna pay Josh getting more than Emmanuel quickly, you think they are.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You think that's more than 30 million a year? 132 and a half a year.

[Esper Heaney]

32 and a half a year. They will pay more than a manual.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes. Wow. See, that was the thing, like, whenever the Thunder had him was like, okay, what are you gonna extend him for? Like, he's gonna have to take a big fat discount to stay here.

[Esper Heaney]

Well, I got. I gotta be the nerd and be like, the percentage of the cap thing, you know, 32 and a half is gonna be like 18 in a couple years. So it's not that bad.

[Dave DeFore]

Right?

[Esper Heaney]

30.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It is going to look bad, though.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Immediately. Immediately.

[Esper Heaney]

Gonna sign him for like a five year. 150. I don't know. 80. What is. What is that? Yeah, it is.

[Dave DeFore]

Addicted to bad decisions.

[Esper Heaney]

Are they gonna. Are they gonna trade Kobe White, is my question. Because they probably.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, because it's a bad decision. Again, like, I don't understand.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I do not understand why 45 million.

[Dave DeFore]

A year, the Bulls get such a pass in the national media. Like, they just get ignored, actually, which is somehow even worse. There's not even a level of disdain by people. You know, remember when the Knicks were bad and it was like, oh, this is awful. It's like a moral crisis in the NBA. Like, oh, man. You know, like the Lakers, they're not allowed to be bad and they never are. But the Bulls have just been bad forever. They lucked into Derrick Rose and they had a nice little run.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They did.

[Dave DeFore]

And it fell apart. And outside of that and Michael Jordan, they have just been awful.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Yeah, they really have been.

[Dave DeFore]

They should be amazing. Like, this is like one of the biggest media markets. It's Chicago. They're the Bulls.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

This is a situation where I wish the NBA would just, you know, pull a pelicans, go in. Hey, we're just going to take this team and we're going to hand it to some basketball people and see what happens.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, they're fun this year, though. There were some stretches that were really fun for them in the regular season.

[Esper Heaney]

We. We talked about how fun they were.

[Dave DeFore]

Kobe White, Alonzo Ball that signed me up. That's. That's must watch.

[Esper Heaney]

They are going to trade for Anthony Davis.

[Dave DeFore]

Trade for Anthony Davis, you know, wasn't.

[Esper Heaney]

That a thing at some point? Him to Chicago.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, right.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, we do that with everybody.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, that's right. Still waiting for Blake Griffin to come back here. Gonna be great.

[Dave DeFore]

He's not even good when he's doing TV next year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Trey Young to okc. Let's go.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Trey Alexander sitting on the bench for the Nuggets. You know, he's from here. Get him on a two way.

[Esper Heaney]

Hey, before we head out of here, how are you feeling? Okc, Denver. You think they close it out, game six. Oh, are we going to get them?

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, I have done like three podcasts about this since the game last night, and I think I flip flopped like twice because, like, I try to go with my gut in the moment and my gut is flip flopping every second. I don't know. I mean.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, if I was doing Oklahoma City radio, I'm, oh, hey, you know what? This is going seven. Denver's gonna win. I'm in Denver. I'm like, I don't know how Denver wins game six.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This series has been so close. You know, like, any criticism that's going anybody's way is probably not justified in my opinion, because it has been so, so close. You know, you're a. Aaron Gordon, you know, prayer shot in game one away from the Thunder being finished with this series.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, is. I don't know. I mean, you're still waiting on, like, the real Jamal Murray game to happen. Like, maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't. You know, you're waiting on the Thunder to have another game where like, like game two where they just absolutely dismantled them because they shot the ball well. You know, you're waiting on a game like that to happen. Every game has looked so different. You know, there's not like a pattern to this. You know, in game four, there were, like, hardly any points in the paint. Last night. They both scored exactly 50 points in the paint, you know, a hundred, 100 total points scored in the paint last night. So, like, none of these games have, like, the same pattern. There's no rhythm to this series. It is a chess match, back and forth, just punch for punch, you know, great playoff series, great basketball. Great, great. I think the.

[Esper Heaney]

This is the finals.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It very well could be. Tactically, it's been great. Both teams have played well. It's good to see Jokic wake up and like, he was incredible last night.

[Esper Heaney]

That shot was unreal.

[Dave DeFore]

He. Top of the key soundboard shuffle. Yeah, come on.

[Esper Heaney]

And he's done it a bunch. He did it to the Lakers a couple years ago.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, he's so is. I mean, it happened just like, literally right in front of me.

[Dave DeFore]

They need the Jamal Murray game in game six.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They need it. The thing is, like, the Thunder have done a really good job on him.

[Dave DeFore]

He got going in the third Right. And. And I. We. You know, we text during the. During the games. Right. And that he hit the Murray flurry in the third.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He did.

[Dave DeFore]

And I was thinking, oh, okay, he's starting to see the basket. Well, I went back and re. Watched. No, he was hitting some wild shots.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He was.

[Dave DeFore]

And that's different than when Murray's going. Like, the thing is, he's not in shape. He's not. His first step is. Is non existent. Really.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Dort can stay in front of him without even using his hands. And that's not what playoff Jamal Murray normally is doing. Right. Like, the mid range is really how he gets the three ball going. It's just not happening. The other thing is he can't post these guys up.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No.

[Dave DeFore]

And Jamal Murray actually does a lot of post up. Like, he. He'll get in high post, he'll get in the mid post, and he's not able to post up OKC's guards. He can't get into rhythm. It's a little bit like Jokic is having a similar. Was having a similar problem, and he solved it in the last game. I was talking to some people, and the theory that we worked on is part of why where Jokic gets hot from three is because he gets hot inside. Right. So defense starts to sink all of a sudden because it's like, well, we're sending two and he's still scoring.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Plus he's seen the ball go in a couple times, so now you've got that extra step. And his shot, obviously he can get it off over a lot of people, but it creates that one. That little bit of space that he needs. But there's also the. The mental aspect, I think, with him of seeing the ball go in. But Murray is just. I just don't think he's got it like he should.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Period.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. I mean, the screen navigation from Dort and from Cason are just ridiculous.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, the screen setting for the Nuggets is actually. I mean, I think Gordon's doing a good job. MPJ is not. Not getting physical enough on those screens. I mean, he's. Obviously. He's dealing with the shoulder thing out there.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, and I think Brown is doing a pretty good job of trying to force switches, but it doesn't matter because OKC is just. He's too skinny.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, not. We haven't talked enough about how skinny those two guards have been for Denver. Right. Like in the playoff. I mean, think about KCP last year. Like, he was just too small, I think.

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah, they're another team. They are another team that feels the Nuggets, they got to make something happen this summer.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, I think that what they did before the end of the season signaled a bit of a sea change.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. If they don't get out of the series, then like. Absolutely.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, I think. I mean, look, even if you win the title, right. Even if you win the title, if you're. If you're. You have to be smart. Especially because they don't want to spend money.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

They have to be able to do this on the fly around Jokic, and I do think a lot of stuff would be on the table. I mean, like, is there. I don't think they've got their. Their draft picks aren't going to be.

[Esper Heaney]

Good enough, but no, they only have the one.

[Dave DeFore]

Giannis and Jokic would be amazing together.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They just don't have the goods.

[Dave DeFore]

They don't have anything to trade.

[Esper Heaney]

I don't have anything to trade. Nothing.

[Dave DeFore]

Unless Jamal Murray is interesting to the Pelicans. And, you know, maybe you take back C.J. mcCollum and maybe you, you know, you can get those picks sent to Milwaukee or something like that. You'd have to be extremely creative. We don't even know who I mean. Is Tim Connolly gonna go back?

[Esper Heaney]

Yeah. Who's running the show? Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Are we gonna get Tim Connolly bowl too, in the conference finals? Right. Like, if the Nuggets get through and play the Wolves, then just Connolly go, oh, I'll just go to whichever team wins.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I know he'll go to the team that pays him more. And it won't be. Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, it won't be the Nuggets.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Shoot. Thanks so much for tuning in to the live stream. I think we'll have this published on the. The feed again. So would love some feedback on that. Would love to know. If you guys are listening and enjoying this, this format, please leave us a five star review. Leave a comment. You can comment on Spotify, you can comment on the Athletic app. Would love that. You can also send us an email. NBA Daily theathletic.com so email us at NBA Daily@the athletic.com. we'd really appreciate that. Any. Any feedback, good or bad. You know, we want to be accessible, so please do that. I hope you guys have a great day. We'll talk to you guys again next week. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to.

[Dave DeFore]

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