NBA Eastern Conference Preview: The top 5 contenders

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily

Episode: NBA Eastern Conference Preview: The Top 5 Contenders

Date: October 17, 2025
Hosts: Dave DuFour, James Edwards, Esfandiar "ES" Baraheni

---

Overview

This episode dives deep into the evolving landscape of the NBA’s Eastern Conference, focusing on the five top contenders for the 2025-26 season. The hosts discuss the impact of key injuries, rank the best players in the East, debate potential breakout athletes and teams, and share their predictions for playoff positioning and which team is poised to emerge as the Eastern Conference Champion. The tone is fun, opinionated, and occasionally irreverent, reflecting the hosts’ chemistry and breadth of NBA knowledge.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

State of the Eastern Conference

• Parody and Uncertainty:
  The hosts agree: the East feels wide open but less star-laden than in recent years, partly due to significant injuries, e.g. to Jason Tatum and Tyrese Haliburton.
  “Is this the year that maybe we don’t trash talk the East? ... It’s going to be competitive, at least within itself.” — Dave, 02:41

• Surprise Potential:
  Multiple teams (Orlando, Detroit, Atlanta) could outperform expectations simply because no one expects much from them.
  “We’re going to talk ourselves into Orlando, Detroit, and Atlanta. Because we don’t expect much.” — James, 03:13

---

Ranking the Top 5 Players in the East (Current)

Injury caveats played a significant role in determining these rankings.

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo

• “It’s pretty obvious Giannis is the best player in the east, at least as of today.” — Dave, 04:33

2. Jalen Brunson

• “It’s pretty safe to say he’s the number two player in the East.” — James, 05:37

• Brunson’s efficiency and ability to generate offense under heavy defensive pressure sets him apart.

• Both hosts debate if Brunson has "another level" but agree he's already elite.

• “He plays basketball like Floyd Mayweather—trying to go every minute, just wears people down.” — Dave, 07:06

3. Donovan Mitchell

• “He is what will take [the Cavaliers] to the next level... he’s the head of the snake.” — ES, 09:11
• Noted for playoff performance, scoring consistency, but in need of better playmaking, particularly in the postseason spotlight.

4. Cade Cunningham

• “This is a guy that can be the best player in any playoff series.” — Dave, 13:21
• Recognition that his ranking now is a product of last year’s leap and belief in further growth.

5. Divergent Picks:

Each host chose a different name for the fifth spot, citing team context, versatility, or upside.

• ES: Pascal Siakam (Indiana) — Appreciated for two-way play and impact metrics. “I just think Pascal should probably get love here as one of the five best players in the conference.” — ES, 19:19
• James: Karl-Anthony Towns — Offensive skillset and track record, despite defensive shortcomings. “You can make the case he’s the greatest shooting big man of all time.” — James, 21:09
• Dave: Evan Mobley — For his defense and all-around impact on the Cavs. “This is also part of why I think the Cavs are under a lot of pressure this season.” — Dave, 23:02

Joel Embiid’s health questions kept him out of consensus top-5.

---

Wild Card/Breakout Players

• James: Brandon Miller (Charlotte) — May “become the best player on that team.”

• Honorable mentions: Brandon Ingram (for being perennially underrated); “I love the 6’6”-6’8” smooth wings.” — James, 28:24

• ES: Franz Wagner (Orlando) — Could take a leap as a driver of offense and defense. “That’s the caliber of player that he can be.” — ES, 30:55

• Dave: Ausar Thompson (Detroit) — Impact defender, could help Detroit take another leap. “Just sign him up now for an all-NBA defensive spot.” — Dave, 33:58

• Additional Pistons Shoutouts: Jaden Ivey and Jalen Duren named as young talents who could elevate Detroit’s floor.

---

Teams Likely to Miss the Play-In

Consensus:

• Wizards and Nets: Not competing by design.
• Charlotte Hornets: Lack of defense, injury concerns, and no reliable center. “You can be a great horse jockey, but if your horse has two broken legs, you’re not winning a lot of races.” — Dave, 41:11
• Chicago Bulls: Bereft of shot creators following the loss of Zach LaVine. “Who on this team are you afraid of to score the basketball?” — James, 42:44

Debate:

• James: Miami Heat — Uninspiring roster, counting on questionable depth; BAM Adebayo is the lone bright spot.
• ES: Boston Celtics — Predicts they’ll pivot to a soft tank as the season progresses due to injury woes and tax concerns. “A very easy way to lose games in the NBA is not having a good center.” — ES, 47:54

---

Top 5 Eastern Conference Teams (Regular Season)

General agreement on top 4, but order and 5th spot varied:

1. Cleveland Cavaliers

• Expected regular season win-getters due to depth. But hosts emphasize need to experiment, not just pile up wins.
• “They need to figure out what are our other tricks. What else can we do come playoff time?” — Dave, 51:03

2. New York Knicks

• Tipped to be stronger in the playoffs.
• “If it clicks... I think the upside is higher [than Cleveland] because they have more versatility.” — James, 58:27

3. Orlando Magic or Atlanta Hawks

• James and ES: Favor Orlando for their defense and internal growth.
• Dave: Atlanta Hawks—predicts firepower and depth will translate to regular season wins.
• “Their defense is what puts them over the edge for me.” — ES, 52:48

4. Atlanta Hawks or Orlando Magic

• Consensus: Both should be solidly in the top 4.

5. Milwaukee Bucks / Detroit Pistons

• James: Bucks—reluctantly, because of Giannis, but warns about fragility and lack of upside beyond their star.
• Dave/ES: Prefer Detroit—their youth and depth bode well for the regular season.
• “Youth and depth are important in the regular season. This is a team that got their first taste of winning last year.” — Dave, 56:53

Notable Bubble Teams:

Pacers (potential to disrupt the top 5 if things break right), with breakouts from Andrew Nembhard or continued growth from Halliburton/Siakam.

---

Who Wins the East? (Finals Prediction)

All three hosts ultimately chose the New York Knicks as their pick to reach the NBA Finals, but not without caveats.

• Reasoning:

  • The Cavs are in a “prove-it” year—historically flamed out in playoffs.
  • The Knicks are healthy, have the most balanced roster, and their stars (especially Brunson) are proven playoff performers.
  • “If it clicks and they end up shooting more threes, figuring out stuff defensively, I think the upside is higher [for the Knicks] because they have a better team than Cleveland…” — James, 58:27
  • “That’s why I think the Knicks should go to the NBA Finals. And by the way, it’s part of just like banking on Jalen Brunson in the playoffs.” — ES, 62:07

• Caveats:
  Health. Both Cleveland and New York were unusually healthy last year—regression or injuries could upend the hierarchy.
  “Odds of being as healthy again—very slim…that could add another wrinkle to the already wrinkled Eastern Conference.” — James, 62:15

• Wild-Card Upside:
  Detroit’s blend of youth, defense, and star power could allow them to leap into contention if their young core coalesces, though the hosts see them as one year away.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Jalen Brunson as the new East MVP Candidate:
  “If the Knicks make the Finals, does that mean Jalen Brunson had an MVP type season to get them to that point?” — Dave, 64:13

• On the East’s Depth and Chaos:
  “You could talk me into four teams. You could talk me out of four teams.” — James, 58:27

• On Evan Mobley’s Defensive Potential:
  “Mobley came in with tremendous instincts. It’s only going to get better and scarier as his body continues to fill out.” — James, 26:18

• On Pascal Siakam’s Hall of Fame Candidacy: “Who’s had a better career: Pascal or Carmelo? …I think Pascal, because of the postseason success, if there’s a world where he gets in…” — James, 20:04

• On What Could Sink the Top Teams:
  Injuries are the “great equalizer” for teams like New York and Cleveland.

• On The Changing Center Position:
  “A very easy way to lose games in the NBA is not having a good center.” — ES, 47:54

• On The Pessimism in Milwaukee:
  “Everything went right for Detroit last year. I’m very nervous about the Bucks this year because of the chatter about Giannis.” — Dave, 55:28

---

Segment Timestamps (approximate)

• 02:35–04:00: Setting up the East preview, initial observations on parity, injuries
• 04:30–12:15: Top players debate (Giannis, Brunson, etc.)
• 13:20–19:50: Cade Cunningham's leap, team context, 5th-best player debate
• 23:00–26:33: Mobley's place among elite, Cleveland's pressure
• 27:19–36:45: Breakout players (Brandon Miller, Franz Wagner, Asar Thompson)
• 40:05–46:42: Teams missing play-in (Hornets, Bulls, Heat/Celtics), supporting arguments
• 50:48–57:06: Ranking the top 5-6 teams, deep dives on Pistons/Bucks, Hawks/Magic
• 58:14–63:15: Finals predictions, pressure on Cavs/Knicks, keys to postseason success

---

Conclusion

While the Eastern Conference lacks the high-end star power and certainty of years past, it makes up for it in parity, up-and-coming teams, and unpredictable breakouts. Consensus or near-consensus among hosts is that—unless injuries upend their season—a deeper, healthier, more versatile New York Knicks are best positioned to take the East, with Cleveland, Orlando, Atlanta, Detroit, and Milwaukee close behind in the mix. The season will hinge on how new acquisitions, young talent, and injury returns shape the landscape, with several “prove it” years looming for both franchises and individual stars.

Transcript

[eBay Announcer]

With 132 million users and an unrivaled selection of sports trading cards and memorabilia, ebay is the home of collectibles. Premium trading card singles, Unreal live card breaks. Truly unique game used memorabilia. All the epic finds you need are right here on ebay. Collect with confidence by downloading the ebay app on the app store or by going straight to eBay.com TheAthletic that's eBay.com TheAthletIC start building your collection today.

[Capital One Announcer]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks. Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Term supply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.

[Dave DeFore]

This Halloween. What's under your costume? Might just steal the show.

[James Edwards]

Wait, is that Glow in the dark underwear? Boo. Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

Meundies has dropped their spookiest collection yet. Glow in the dark undies and PJs.

[James Edwards]

So comfy it's scary. Tricks, treats and buttery soft briefs.

[Esperaheni]

Exactly. To get cozy and spook you for less, go to Meundies.com Trickortreat and enter.

[James Edwards]

Code trickortreat to get 20% off your first order. That's 20% off your first order at.

[Esperaheni]

Meundies.com Trick or Treat code Trick or treat.

[James Edwards]

Me undies.

[Dave DeFore]

Treat yourself. Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily, presented by ebay. I'm Dave Defor, here with Esperaheny and James Edwards for our Eastern conference preview. We've gone through all the teams in the East. Now let's figure out who's going to win it. Good morning, everybody. Good morning, guys. Season about to start. I know, I know. James is extremely excited to get back to work.

[James Edwards]

Oh, yeah. I mean, listen. Who. Who I shouldn't say what I was about to say. Yes. I'm very excited.

[Dave DeFore]

You guys. We've. We've done 30 teams worth of previews. We've done the Western conference preview, and we've saved the least for last, the Eastern Conference, guys.

[Esperaheni]

Oh, come on, Dave. Can we make conference?

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. Is this the year that maybe we don't trash talk the East? I mean, it's going to be competitive, at least within itself. I mean, there's chance, right?

[James Edwards]

You know what I think is going to happen? I think it's. Nobody knows what's going to happen. It's like Philadelphia, right? The last few years, the bar was high, and there's all these expectations, and I'm using Philadelphia as kind of representation of the east in general. Now the bar is low, and when the bar is low, you just have fun watching the fun teams.

[Dave DeFore]

Right?

[James Edwards]

Like, you can talk. Like, we're going to talk ourselves into Orlando, Detroit, and Atlanta. Like, that's just going to happen.

[Dave DeFore]

Right?

[James Edwards]

Like, because we don't expect much. So I. I think it's going to be fun. Will it be a good conference? I don't. I don't think it matters as long as Oklahoma City cares enough, try to win as many titles as possible. But it's going to be fun.

[Esperaheni]

There were, let me see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 teams that won less than 40 games last year in the east over, under. On how many we get this year? I. I would actually go under. I think there will be less. Fewer teams this year that win 40 or fewer games in the.

[Dave DeFore]

Interesting. I think I was gonna say more. I was gonna say all 15 teams in the Eastern Conference less than 40 games.

[James Edwards]

Somehow, I don't.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, the thing is, the injury bug has hit the east, so it's a little. It's maybe a little bit down here from a narrative standpoint. You know, obviously, Jason Tatum being a massive injury, just completely, you know, changing the trajectory of the Boston Celtics franchise, Tyrese Halliburton getting injured, and then Miles Turner leaving the Pacers. I mean, that. That team is just totally different this year. Speaking. So those guys not going to be playing this. This season. Who are the five best players in the east right now? I mean, I think it's pretty obvious Giannis is the best player in the east, at least as of today. I don't think that's controversial.

[James Edwards]

You guys agree 100%?

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, it depends on how much you believe in Joel Embiid.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. Well, I mean, I. At this point, I'm just going to put a big question mark on Joel Embiid. You know what? We've seen some of the stuff coming out of training camp. He looks like he's moving okay, but, like, we've been here before. Is he. I don't think he's starting the season.

[James Edwards]

I think I. I wouldn't be surprised.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. I mean, it would be a surprise to me if there's a chance. But. But that being said, I'm hoping that he is, but he's a big question mark. I think we could leave him out for the purposes of this exercise, you.

[Esperaheni]

Know, I mean, if he's 30 games of Embiid versus 65 of Y', all, you know, or anybody else in the east, that's.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, if he, if he comes back and he's somehow healthy enough to play 60, 65 games, it'll be a miracle. So, you know, and he would be a top five player. The guy is super talented. So who comes after Giannis James? I mean, is it. Do we. Is it Jalen Brunson?

[James Edwards]

That's who I went with. I did my list in order. I just. At a point, your resume speaks for itself. And Jalen has terrorized the league with the ball in his hands less than I think Cade has had like 53% of his threes were assisted. Halliburton in the 50s and Jalen like 43. Like, this guy is a guy who just gets buckets and finds ways to get buckets. Right? Like there is a level of shot making an offense that he has in this league that we put offense on a pedestal that you can't ignore what he's done in a New York Knicks uniform and you add in the accolades. I think it's. I think it's pretty safe to say he's the number two player in the East.

[Esperaheni]

Now, James, do you think there's another level Brunson can go to? Because like we. Dave mentioned maybe MVP conversations this season. He was in MVP conversations last year. But like, is there another level that he can get to in his career?

[James Edwards]

I think we'll find out this year because of how different they're going to play. I think he's going to be off the ball more. Can he be he. In small sample sizes, he's been a very good spot up shooter. Can he be elite at that? Can he find that proper balance of, of creating for himself, being off the ball and then creating for others? Like, I think there's going to be a different style in which we see him play this year, which will. I mean, I think if this doesn't take him to another level, then he'll be what he is, which is one of the best players in basketball, which I don't think is an issue. But I think this year will be the year we find out maybe next year if they get year two in a Mike Brown system.

[Dave DeFore]

He's. He kind of plays basketball like Floyd Mayweather, right? I mean, he, he's trying to play the full 48 minutes and he's gonna just continue to touch you every single time he can. He just Beats these guys up. But I have worried like, the last couple years watching him, will he run down? Right? Like, just. It's a hard style to play. Every single bucket is kind of tough. I mean, there's not a guy in the league that takes the shots that he takes. I mean, it's just. It's the hardest looks every single night. And he's undersized. So I hope to see like this year an improvement in the offense so he can get more of those buckets. But does it, you know, what does he have to do to have the off ball gravity? Is it just sticking shots or. Or, you know, has he got to be a better cutter? Like, what. What do you expect to see out of.

[James Edwards]

Yeah, I think being a better cutter helps, but I also think just getting him off the ball and just getting it moving side to side, getting him in situations where he's coming around pin downs, coming around screens, able to shoot from the wing. Sometimes maybe you put him in the corner as a kick out guy. Just easier shots. Yeah, I think that's what's most important. Like you said, this guy has had to work for a lot of buckets, and that's what makes him so great, because the efficiency has been there, the winning has been there, and he's found a way to do it. But there is a way to get him easier shots, and I think that's what Mike Brown is very much keyed in on this season.

[Esperaheni]

Also going downhill.

[James Edwards]

Yeah, there's.

[Esperaheni]

There's. There's a way to conserve Jalen Brunson without having him take fewer shots or take more shots off the ball. It's like not having him bring up the ball every time because dealing with that full court pressure and that ball pressure is another aspect that, like, just wears guys down. So you have Mikhail or you have someone else bring up the ball, it makes it a lot easier for Brunson to get into his actions. Off ball, too.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, you can bring him up off a pin down out of the corner and get him right into a pick and roll up at the top of the key. Who. Who you got next? S?

[Esperaheni]

Oh, man. I. I think this is pretty clear to me. Curious. This is where the. The list splits off though, right? This is where it's like you're entering a different tier of player. Probably we're gonna be finding out about.

[Dave DeFore]

Everyone'S personalities because the Eastern Conference doesn't have, like, all these overwhelming talents.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I went.

[Esperaheni]

Donovan Mitchell, I think he is still the most, and maybe not the most important cavalier, but he's the best cavalier in terms of what they require from him. Scoring wise, the offensive load that he carries, he is what will take them to that next level. Now, you can argue Evan Mobley is their most important player just because of what he provides. Versatility wise to them, like how far he's able to expand his offensive range, how he's able to look in the playoffs, in the postseason, will dictate how far this Cavs team goes. But I think. I think Mitchell is their best player. I think he is the pacemaker for everything that they want to do on both ends of the floor. Truthfully, I think he's kind of actually underrated defensively, in my opinion. So I got to say, Donovan Mitchell, that's number three for me.

[James Edwards]

Same for me. First of all, I think it's important just to note the resume, right? Like, we can't just dismiss that 100%. Yeah. Elite shot maker, elite driver. I think he's improved as a playmaker at times, and I agree with you. I don't think he's as bad defensively. Now, is that the system? And when you have guys behind you, you can.

[Dave DeFore]

100%.

[James Edwards]

Yeah. Right. Like, I think that's part of it, but who cares? Like, that's. It's. Basketball is a team game. I just think you have to go with the resume when it comes to Donovan, just one of the best scorers in basketball. The reason that the Cavs get up so many threes, the reason why they play so fast, the reason why the offense is so potent, it's him. He's the. He's the head of the snake.

[Esperaheni]

Basically. Has always been a playoff player, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. 24 points a game last year, which is 24 for his career as well. 37% three point shooter for his career is about 38 last season. I mean, this guy is just. He's kind of in his prime still. Does he have another level and does he have to hit that for the Cavs to get out of the East?

[James Edwards]

I think it's more. So can we get the best of Donovan in the playoffs and we'll get to this a little later? I think my biggest thing with the Cavs is, especially last year, they. They put themselves on this pedestal. Look, we play our starters less than anybody, right? Like, yeah, but they looked run down by the second round. Like, I know they had injuries, but I can just vividly remember Donovan Mitchell's hands on his knees like, three times in the elimination game.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, yeah.

[James Edwards]

Why is that the case? Right? Like, so can we get the best of Donovan Mitchell in the playoffs. Can we get the best of this team in the playoffs? Like, that's what matters. Enough of the 60 wins. And JB did a great job there. Right? But this team has flamed out in the playoffs no matter who the coach is. Right. At a point, the players got to look in the mirror.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah. I will say playmaking is also a big thing for Donovan Mitchell. That's the next step for him. Like, he is a good passer, but overall, for the amount of scoring load and usage that he has, he's still pretty. Like, I would say, not a top tier passer in the NBA for how much he does for a team offensively. So like, he. He needs to be able to manipulate defenses. And to your point, James, in the postseason, when it matters, when the coverage is all geared towards you and the scouting report is Donovan Mitchell versus everybody else, how are you going to find open shots for your teammates?

[Dave DeFore]

All right, I'll go next because I think that this one also won't be controversial. Although if you go back a year ago on this show, me saying Cade Cunningham is a top five player in the Eastern Conference probably would have been a surprise and a shot. I know James, I'm a known. But you know what? You can't hate on what he did last season. Okay. We got to see what it looks like when he has actual NBA talent around him. And that matters. You know, you can't be a top five player in Charlotte, for instance. It's just not going to happen. But Detroit, that's a real basketball team now. And I think Cade, this is a guy that can be the best player in any playoff series. I think this. This coming playoffs in the east, he can be the best performer against any single person out there. You know, his highs are. Are extremely high. And when you can defend the way that he does, also, you just. It's nice when your best player is not a defensive liability. You don't have to scheme around them. Allows him to add another shooter out there that may. Might not be able to defend that well, which just unlocks more stuff for K. But I think that the leap we saw last year was the first one. I think that he's got another one coming this season. I know y. I know I'm. I'm preaching to choir right now.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, you really are.

[James Edwards]

I thought I would. I thought I would be the one. I thought maybe AS might have Cade 5. I thought I'd be the only one to have him 4. And I agree with you and I Think there's a couple things here for his. Yes, Detroit had actual NBA talent around him last year, but we still like have to acknowledge that his second best offensive weapon was Malik Beasley and he still did what he did.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, right.

[James Edwards]

Like, that's not a knock on Malik Beasley. No, but that's. That shows that the Pistons still haven't even really gone for it. So I think that's what, like we talk about all these other teams in the league, the Pistons are going to go for it at some point. They're just spending this time figuring out what young guys are worth building around outside of Cade. And there's going to be a point where they press the button and I think it's going to be scary for a lot of teams. The other thing.

[Dave DeFore]

Go ahead.

[Esperaheni]

I was just going to say they are probably my favorite Lowry marketing destination because he matches so well with what they want to do offensively. And if the, if the Jazz decide to blow it up and, well, blow it up, I think that that's blown all.

[Dave DeFore]

That is a. That is a smoking crater.

[James Edwards]

I heard myself say Salt Lake City.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Dave DeFore]

That's fair.

[James Edwards]

Okay.

[Esperaheni]

If they decide to blow it up again and trade Lowry, then I, I would put the Pistons number one on the trade destination list just because of how well he pairs with Kate. So. Yeah, sorry, go ahead, James.

[James Edwards]

And there's a couple other things with Kate and I'm not speaking out of turn here. I've talked to Kate about it many times and I think it's been an emphasis for him this summer. He's coming in to the season in shape. Like, I think the one thing with Cade, he's like understood the conditioning aspect and now that he's played basketball deeper than just. I mean, in their case, when I was there, March, like this thing was white flag in March. He understands that importance. I know just talking to people around that organization still, like conditioning was huge for him and I think that'll help with the turnovers. I think that'll help with some of the nonchalantness we see when he's getting double teamed and at leads to a lot of the turnovers. Like that's the big thing. I think that's what we love about Kate, is how smooth his game is. But he can just be sometimes too cool for school that when he doesn't meet pressure with pressure, it leads to turnovers. I think we're going to see less of that this year. He still hasn't even really become the three point shooter. I think he'll be. And like you said, defensively, he's really good. I just think that that guy just has it. What he did last year with. Listen, if we take Kate off that team and they have some good players, right? But like, we're. We're not talking about the Pistons in the same way that we would talk about OKC if they took Shay off or. I don't want to say Halliburton off the Pacers. I guess we'll find out, right? But like, I think it's a different level. I think there's a drop off. And that dude, I still think he's. There's still things he can refine, but what he did last year, it speaks for itself. And I think he's only going to get better as this team continues to invest around him.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, his lower leg injury issues, I wonder if that contributed to lack of like just not being able to be in condition to start the season. I don't want to give him any excuses, but he has had kind of like a run of every single season. Something going on with his lower leg. So maybe that's.

[James Edwards]

Yeah. No. Yep. I agree. I think. Except last year, two years ago, when he missed basically. I mean, last year was basically his. This is his fifth season. So last year was basically his third season because he missed his third season.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

So, yeah, he had like a rod in his leg learning how to play with that. And I remember him telling me, like, when we were talking about the three point stuff and how it hasn't translated like it did at college, he's like, it's not an excuse. He's like, that is just farther. And it takes time to like, adapt to it.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, I would even say it's not. It's the distance is a thing, but it's the rhythm and the feel of that distance. Right. Like your pickup points are higher. Like, it's just a whole. It's a different. The way that the. The geometry of the court is. Is just different. By adding the extra foot and a half.

[James Edwards]

I mean, it's running up and down. Right. There's a difference between stationary shooting threes. But then when you're defending. Exactly. Dame Lillard on the other end, your legs are a little soggy. Right. Like, but you still got to be like, it's just getting used to all that.

[Dave DeFore]

Also, everybody's six, seven. I. I just. Let's not underestimate that. That everybody is six, seven and an absolute freak athlete. And it is just hard. So, like, there is that. All right. I think that the, the this final spot top five in the East. This is probably where we're all going to be all over the place because now it's going to be styles ask go. Go ahead and go first man.

[Esperaheni]

So we're. We're chalk for the first four. I know because I agreed with you guys on cade. We're chalking. This is where I might differ a little bit because there are a few options I'm going to go with and I lean defense so I lean a guy who can play on both sides of the ball.

[James Edwards]

So I'm not going to go chalk.

[Esperaheni]

I went with Pascal Siakam, Indiana Pacers forward. How awesome was last year for Pascal because Eastern Conference finals mvp. You could argue whether he was the guy to get that over Halliburton with the shots that Halliburton hit. Whatever. We can debate that. But in terms of like the on off metrics for what Pascal does impact wise for that Pacers team, especially defensively they were 11 points per 100 possessions. Better on defense with Pascal on the floor last year. Just wildly better defensively with him. The mid range shot making the isolation stuff that has improved over the years. He still knows how to get a bucket. Still pretty good passer, plays all star level basketball. I just think Pascal should probably get love here as one of the five best players in the conference. So stamping my name on it. Pascal Siakam Top 5.

[James Edwards]

I love Pascal. That is a great pick. I agree with you. I think he's the best player on the Pacers. Not the most important but the best player.

[Esperaheni]

Yep.

[James Edwards]

Hall of Famer in my opinion.

[Esperaheni]

I think so. Yeah.

[James Edwards]

I think it'll. I think it'll end up that way. I went with here again. I'm just going with resume.

[Esperaheni]

Dave is shocked that we said hall of Famer by the way I think about it.

[James Edwards]

So he has got a title NBA championship. He has the all NBAs most improved.

[Esperaheni]

Also one MIP. Yeah.

[James Edwards]

All right. Who. Who has. Who's had a better career? Pascal or Carmelo? Wow.

[Dave DeFore]

Carmelo Anthony.

[Esperaheni]

Wow.

[James Edwards]

Well, I know we have to factor in USA but I'm talking about NBA career.

[Esperaheni]

Listen, I'm loving this.

[Dave DeFore]

I'll let you guys probably had a better career although. But again I mean outside of the title and James, you're going to get.

[Esperaheni]

Nick fans all over you with that one.

[James Edwards]

I know and I love and I love mellow but like I even think we've had this conversation like Paul George's career mellows. That one to me is not even close. Paul George's career is better than me.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, I would agree there. I would agree. Yeah.

[James Edwards]

So I think Pascal, because of the postseason success, if there's a world where he gets in, even if he doesn't win another title or anything like that.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

No offense to Carmelo. I just. You gotta like, do something other than score.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, okay. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know, man. I think if you score like Carmelo, you maybe, maybe need some help.

[James Edwards]

That's fair. That's fair. But I mean, he parted.

[Esperaheni]

I love that he didn't help his.

[James Edwards]

Team get some help. Yeah, he made him trade everybody for him to go to New York.

[Dave DeFore]

But anyway, that's fair.

[James Edwards]

I went with Cat. I think again, resume, make the case he's the greatest shooting big man of all time. Some would argue Dirk. I wouldn't argue with either one of them. Could put the ball on the floor. The gravity he presents makes life easier for his teammates. I wish he shot more threes. I need to find, find a way to do that. Part of it was scheme last year and part of it's him. He needs to let it fly. Obviously not the defensive stalwart is somebody like Pascal. Right. Doesn't have that versatility. But I think just the offensive resume, as I contradict myself after we talked about Mello, speaks for itself. The resident. He's been there, done that. He's been to the, he's been to the conference finals two years in a row. Yeah. I just think Cat deserves that last spot with, with us all not touching anybody on the 76ers and Joel and B. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, I, I, I will say I think that this season for Cat is super important. His ability to pass is what's going to take this team to the next level. And then obviously shot volume. But his passing was very good and we didn't get a chance to see that last season with this team. Just a function of the, the way that that offense works. I mean, do you, do you anticipate him being able to operate much from like the elbow as, as a facilitator, kind of like what he would do in Minnesota?

[James Edwards]

It sounds like when, when he's, when he's at the 5, that's going to be the case. And then when he's at the 4, they're going to move him around like, we'll see. Maybe we'll see Cat shoot corner threes.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

Like you think you'd want a great shooter to shoot. The easiest three point shot last year, I believe was his Lowest percentage of corner threes in his career. So Mike Brown's gonna move him around when he's at the 4, use him in different ways. And I think when he's at the 5, you'll see him as like a hub type thing. That's what it sounds like.

[Dave DeFore]

The way that Mike Brown used Sabonis in Sacramento, and it's like, okay, so what if you had a guy like that, but who could also shoot, put the ball on the floor and pass? I feel like that could be a pretty potent guy for me. I am gonna go with Evan Mobley, second team all NBA last season, defense player of the year. And this is also part of why I think the Cleveland Cavaliers are under a lot of pressure this season. You have two of the. The five best players in the east, in my opinion right now, and that doesn't even count that you've got Darius Garland and Jared Allen. I mean, they have a stacked squad when it comes to talent, and I think that. That they have to win this year, two years in a row of getting out big with the double big stuff. I mean, I think this is where Mobley, while he is great, he needs to take that next step on the offensive side, and he needs to be a guy by the end of this year. We're talking about as like one of the two or three best players in the east, not a guy who is like borderline fifth or sixth. Yeah, I agree. If he can do all those things, I think the Cavs are going to have another great season.

[Esperaheni]

I thought it was interesting. We talked to Carter Rodriguez for the Cavs preview, and he mentioned that a lot of Mobley's good offensive games came against weaker competition. So it was, like, cool. Monday night against the Hornets, he was dominating. Tuesday night against the Wizards, he was going off, but it was those other levels of competition where his offensive game just wasn't there. That's the step you need to see him take. You need to see him be established against bigger, stronger defenders and be able to get his offensive game off. Like when they ran the bench lineups with Mobley as the number one option. Like dribble handoffs. Let's run him and Struse together. Let's run him and Sam Merrill together. That was such potent offense in the regular season playoffs, not the same case. It completely evaporated. How can he do that in the postseason, by the way? To that point? I think that's why I threw Pascal in there, because I think there's. I think this Pacers team is actually going to be pretty good. I think even without Halliburton, their system sort of flows. They'll be able to play random basketball. And having Pascal be the number one option for them, it might just on top of the season that he had last year. It'll help elevate him to another level too, just to be the number one guy on the team. So that's another case, I guess.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Edwards]

No, I like that. And I think Mobley. Do you believe in the shot is a big thing. Right? Like he needs to be a threat out there, being able to put the ball on the floor. Like, I think he. I remember when the Pistons, I was covering Detroit and they had the number one pick and it was the Cade Mobley Green year. And I had a front office person explain to me, we think Kate will be the all NBA multiple time guy, Jalen Green will probably win rookie of the year and Mobley will be the hall of Famer. And I don't know, I didn't always like, I think Kade has Hall of Fame potential. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

But I understood what they meant. And Cade is 100 or Mobley is 100. Like has everything you'd want and a modern big today. And came in with the instincts like Jaren Jackson, like for example, like he fouled in college. He still falls.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

Mobley came like when you come in, like, yes, you can learn certain things and Jaren is a great defender but the foul thing will always hurt him. Mobley's come in with tremendous instincts and it's only going to get like better and scarier for people on that end as his body continues to fill out and he continues to learn the game and he's just a phenomenal player.

[Dave DeFore]

I thought Mobley would be the guy that passed Giannis, the guy who was like, I'm the, I'm the new best player in the East. I mean, not yet, but I assumed that, that he would grow into being that guy and the guy who would be able to guard Giannis. By the way, he's kind of just perfectly built to, to go up against him. Yeah, yeah.

[Esperaheni]

I mean, look, the more, the more versatile Mobley is on both sides of the floor, I think the, the more they'll throw him at 5 as their full time center and that makes the team building options easier. Right, because then you can look into trading Jared Allen to make your depth a little bit better, to make your Ross's roster make a little bit more sense. But we'll see, we'll see if they end up doing that.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay, so who do you guys think have a chance to, to break out in the, in the east?

[James Edwards]

So when we're doing breakout, are we doing player or team? Player.

[Dave DeFore]

Player.

[James Edwards]

Player.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

And we're not talking about like if we're talking about going from really good to like MVP conversations. To me that's cade.

[Esperaheni]

Okay.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

If we're talking about I really like this guy to he's the best player on their team. For me it's Brandon Miller.

[Esperaheni]

Ooh, I like that.

[James Edwards]

I like that. I love Brandon Miller. I love his game. He looks like he's put on like a good amount of weight. Like he doesn't look super thin. I'm not the biggest lamelo guy. I think Brandon has the skill set, plays, competes on both ends of the floor to be the best player on that team. And if you told me again, I don't think the Hornets are going to be good this year but if you told me that there's the consensus starts to shift that this is Brandon Miller's team this season, I wouldn't be surprised. And I want to give an honorable mention to Brandon Ingram. Like two.

[Dave DeFore]

Brandon.

[James Edwards]

Yeah, like listen, it's very clear that I have like a type. I love the six, six, six, six, seven smooth ways.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Edwards]

Ingram's really good man. Yeah, he is like I think people just like and I understand like he doesn't shoot threes. He shoots too many mid range twos. He's been in a shitty situation. I say this every time I've, I talk about Brandon Ingram. I've watched him be one of the best two players in a playoff series already. He did it when the Hornets lost to the Suns. I think it was the year the Suns went to the NBA Finals. Like, yeah, he made like he was really good in that series. He's a better passer than he gets credit for.

[Esperaheni]

Absolutely.

[James Edwards]

He's a better defender than he gets credit for. If he can shoot more threes and less mid range twos, I think people the narrative on him would switch. I hope he does that this year. I just think like if he's healthy, which is a big if people just remember like oh yeah, Brandon Miller is really good and I just want him to be really good as the leader of the Paul George, Brandon Ingram, Brandon.

[Dave DeFore]

Miller fan clubs, the Paul George being everybody's favorite player thing. But it's real, it's a real thing.

[James Edwards]

And I'm 33, I'm not even 23.

[Dave DeFore]

I know, like I love it baffling to me but it's like tmac.

[James Edwards]

It's the.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, it is exactly like tmac.

[Dave DeFore]

It's the same.

[Esperaheni]

It's the smooth scoring, the smoothness.

[James Edwards]

Can dunk on you. Like. Yeah, I want to play like. Like, just makes basketball look so cool, man.

[Esperaheni]

That's exactly.

[Dave DeFore]

TMAC was a powerful player, too. Like, I first skinny guard. Like, it wasn't always.

[Esperaheni]

Paul George was also a powerful player. Pacers. Paul George, before the legend injury, he had like.

[James Edwards]

Well, how many Eastern Conference finals did he go to in India? Was it 2 or 1?

[Dave DeFore]

2. And those indie teams were great.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

West.

[Esperaheni]

Shout out to David West Verticality.

[Dave DeFore]

Who's your breakout? Who's your breakout player? Look, there.

[Esperaheni]

There are a few options here. I like the. I like the Brandon. Brandon Miller shout out. Just because they take a lot of threes and I mean him and. Him and Lamelo are going to take a lot of shots and so, like, Miller is just going to be up for tons of us. That's awesome. I think he'll have a chance to break out. I also like him defensively. I think he provides a lot of versatility, so that's a good, good call. I think Orlando is a team that's going to break out. And there's probably two players you're looking at as breakout players here with Paolo, Ben Caro and Franz Wagner. I think I lean Franz Wagner for the breakout, though, because I think we already know what to expect from Paulo. I think he already provides something. Hopefully he becomes more efficient as a score. I think the presence of Desmond Bain will help him be more efficient. Work as a screener, guy who can finish around the basket, etc.

[James Edwards]

Etc.

[Esperaheni]

But Franz, he's a driver of offense. This guy can barrel his way to the basket. He's great at making decisions, getting downhill. I think he's a good, positive defender, too. He had a stretch. I mean, Dave, we talked about it last year, like when. When Paolo got hurt and we were all like, oh, well, that's the season for the Orlando Magic. And Franz pulled out like 10 or 15 games of this wildly efficient basketball where he was putting up 30 points a night, where he's putting up 25 points a night. That's the caliber of player that he can be. So I got. I think I'm gonna go Franz for breakout player of the year for the east.

[Dave DeFore]

If. If he can shoot it.

[Esperaheni]

If he can shoot it, yes.

[Dave DeFore]

If that shot ever comes around. If it pops for him this season.

[Esperaheni]

Honestly, that's for both of them. For both Paolo and Franz, they need to be able to Shoot the rock. And they have not been able to do that consistently.

[Dave DeFore]

So let me ask you this, James. If you had to choose between one of these guys, let's say the Magic. I don't know. They just don't have the money. Both of these guys need a. Which one of these guys would you build around? Paolo or Franz Wagner.

[James Edwards]

Oh, man. So I like Franz a bit more as a playmaker. I like Powell. I like Paolo more. As if the shot can come around. That guy's just more dangerous, just with the size and strength that he has. I.

[Esperaheni]

Paulo has that playoff resume too, right? Like two.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

Undeniable.

[James Edwards]

Man, that's tough. I'm gonna just. I'm gonna go Paulo just out of. I don't know. But the Michigan State me doesn't want to pick France. Oh, yeah. But shout out to Franz. He's like. I watch him a lot in colleges. Didn't think he'd be this good. You know what? I'll go Franz. I don't think the shots as bad as it appears. Like, I don't know. I think it'll. It'll fix itself one day.

[Esperaheni]

I think the fact that it's as close of a conversation is. Is pretty good.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Esperaheni]

Because you wouldn't.

[Dave DeFore]

You wouldn't think that. Like, a year ago, no one was saying this, but there's a. There's an argument to be made at Paolo and the way that Paolo kind of operates with the ball in his hands kind of holds this team back a little bit. Yeah. And the real key to them maintaining success while. While Paolo was out and while Franz was out last year was Jalen Suggs. And that's where I think Desmond Bain being. Adding him to the mix is going to help them quite a bit more ball handling. Anything to make it so that these guys, just like Paolo can be a black hole. And I. That would kill their offense. So, yeah, I think I would probably lean Franz. I like that as a breakout for me. We talk all the time about Amend Thompson. I think a Sar Thompson is going to be the Thompson of this season. Just sign him up now for an all NBA defensive spot. I think the Pistons are going to be improved. You know, we talked about Cade and maybe the leap that he's got coming. I think a Saar will benefit from that quite a bit. And you know, we're seeing more and more that teams are learning how to use guys like this. And I think that just another year under his belt. And remember, he started out not. Not healthy last year, so, like, give him A chance to start fresh. Like he's healthy in training camp. He gets to go out there from day one. I think a star Thompson is going to open a bunch of eyes. I mean anytime you have a guy with that kind of motor, that kind of athleticism and just, I don't know.

[James Edwards]

There'S something about him.

[Dave DeFore]

Right? Like he pops and it's more than just athleticism.

[James Edwards]

Yeah, he's, I think they're going to use him like honestly like a lot of secondary ball handling this year, which I like. He's a very smart player, good passer. Just needed to tighten the handle and I, I think you make a great point. The Pistons took off last year. When he came back, it was also kind of the same time Ivy went down. Right. So I'm curious to see how that situation plays itself out. But Asar and Isaiah Stewart being two of the best defenders in basketball. Com completely helped the Pistons trajectory and then find an identity. Right? Like if Isaiah Stewart would have got the minutes for the, to meet the requirements, he would have probably been one on one of the all defense teams. He was that good last year. And I think when you have somebody like a SAR in the front court at the point of attack and you have Cade who can defend, Asar just unlocks a lot of stuff for what they can do defensively. Unlocks them to be able to play fast and in the open floor. If he can just like be an okay corner shooter and it like he doesn't need to become Dan Marley, right? Like he just needs to be able to hit a hit, hit his hit corner, open threes, shoot him. Just be able to do that, Just be able to shoot him and make them. And I think JB's done a good job with Monty, struggled with, he just like put a star in the corner and like that was what he did. They've used him in the dunker spot. They're going to use him as a ball handler. Like I, I, JB is just a great coach and he's going to find a way to, to utilize that, that unique skill set that Asar has.

[Esperaheni]

Even in the playoffs. They, they ran, I mean they camped Asar in the dunker spot, but there was like multiple possessions. I believe it was in New York where it was like Cade would drive Asar wide open in the dunker spot. Cade would drive Asar wide open in the dunker spot. They, they find a way like corner crashes are a way to get offensive rebounds. But Asar does an incredible job of like weaponizing the space that Defenses give him to actually crash the offensive glass. And so even without the jump shot, I think he's going to be a pretty use player. I like that shout. Honestly. There's a few guys on the Pistons that we can mention. You mentioned Ivy in passing, but like maybe this is the year he puts it all together. You know, he.

[James Edwards]

He got to watch them individually before he got hurt.

[Dave DeFore]

Absolutely.

[Esperaheni]

Like he, he got to watch them play a certain brand of basketball. How does he fit into that? Jalen Duran is another guy. Like it's. It's incredible to me that Jalen Duran is still 21 years old. Feels like he's been in the league for five years.

[Dave DeFore]

That actually that kind of shocked me a little bit because in my head he's like 24, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

But he's still super young and he a lot of room to grow too. So there's a couple guys on the Pistons that can make them really make a jump.

[James Edwards]

Yeah, I agree.

[Dave DeFore]

All right guys, stick around after the break. We're going to talk about the teams that are going to do well in the east. Also, who's going to be at the bottom of the East.

[eBay Announcer]

You saw that play when your all star sized up the defender jab, step twice, then step back and drain one at the buzzer. That's not just hall worthy, that's wall worthy. And you can own a piece of it when you shop the unrivaled selection of trading cards and memorabilia on ebay. The home of collectibles since 1995 squad up with 132 million users around the world to find that rookie patch auto you can't find anywhere else. Premium trading card singles and sealed boxes. Unreal Live card breaks Truly unique game used memorabilia. All the epic finds you need are right here on eBay. Plus with eBay online authenticity guarantee for trading cards. You know what you buy is the real deal. Collect with confidence by downloading the ebay app on the app store or by going straight to eBay.com TheAthletic that's right. Your collecting journey tips off right here, right [e-mail] theathletic come through and collect with us today.

[Capital One Announcer]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks. Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Term supply. See capital1.com bank capital1NA member FDIC. Are you still running your business with one creaky old phone system? Missing calls, losing track of messages, and scrambling to keep up with your team? It's time to break up with the past and say hello to Kuo. Quo is the number one business phone system with 4.7 stars across 3,000 reviews on G2. Quo brings all your business phone calls and texts into one app for your team. No more juggling devices or being tied to a landline. Quo's built in AI logs calls, creates summaries, automates follow ups, and can even answer and route calls. So you never miss an opportunity. Whether you're a solo oper or leading a growing team, Quo keeps you connected and helps you deliver standout customer experiences. Join over 90,000 businesses using Quo and see why it's the number one business phone system for customer satisfaction. Level up your workflow with quo. Get started free plus get 20% off your first six months at quo.comtech that's quo spelled q u o.com tech and if you have existing numbers with another service, Quo will port them over for free.

[James Edwards]

Quo.

[Capital One Announcer]

No missed calls, no missed customers.

[Dave DeFore]

All right. When we did the Western Conference preview, we realized just how many teams are competing for the playoffs. The play in. Like they're not tanking in the East. We have the Wizards and the Nets that we assume are just not going to try. I mean, we know Brooklyn isn't trying, period.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Michael Porter Jr. Is their best player. Is that. Is that where we're at?

[James Edwards]

Cam.

[Esperaheni]

Cam Thomas.

[Dave DeFore]

Believers Thomas. But you know, either way, that's a sad debate to have. So outside of the Wizards and the Nets, what are the other three teams that you guys have missing the play in? Just playoffs completely.

[James Edwards]

You want me to go first?

[Dave DeFore]

Go ahead.

[Esperaheni]

Go for it.

[James Edwards]

Go for it. I have two non shockers and one maybe shocker.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. Okay.

[James Edwards]

Hornets.

[Esperaheni]

Yep.

[James Edwards]

Yep. I just like. I think Charles Lee's a fine coach. I just don't think they're going to be able to defend. I don't love the center situation. Yeah. Lamelo's always hurt. Brandon's been hurt.

[Dave DeFore]

Even though you can be a great horse jockey, but if you're. If your horse has two broken legs, you're not winning a lot of races. Yeah, right.

[James Edwards]

100%.

[Esperaheni]

A great way to tank NBA games is to not have a starting center.

[James Edwards]

100%. Yep.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

No, that's a great point. I just. There's nothing like Miles Bridges. Like good NBA player. Fine. Right. Like, but that's. It's just not a very inspiring group. I don't. They have no identity. There's just no culture there. Still. I just. It's just. I just don't see again, unless Brandon makes like a tremendous. Like a bigger leap than even I think, like, okay, maybe they fight for one of those. But I just. I'm not the biggest lamelo guy. He's always hurt and just having the set. The trade, trading Nurkic was just it. Just from a team building standpoint.

[Dave DeFore]

They traded every center.

[James Edwards]

Yeah. It just made no sense.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm with you. I don't think there's. Charlotte has no chance to play it.

[James Edwards]

No.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, I agree. I'm with you guys on that, too.

[James Edwards]

My other team is Chicago.

[Esperaheni]

I also have the Chicago Bulls.

[James Edwards]

I think Billy Donovan's a good coach. I think they're going to play hard. It's almost like a poor man's Orlando where they're not going to be anywhere near as good defensively.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

But you could say what you want about Levine. I at least knew there was. There was going to be five to 10 to 15 games a year where just Levine can maybe score 40 and the Bulls might win.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

Who in the hell on this team are you afraid of to score? The basketball?

[Esperaheni]

I guess Kobe White.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

That's the only guy.

[James Edwards]

All due respect. And I mean. And I mean, with all due respect, Kobe White is a very good player. Kobe White is not going to swing games.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

With the regularity that they will need him to swing games to stay out of. To make the play in. I. I just. This team just does not have the offense for me. That's great that they're going to be able to generate threes. They shoot them. Who's going to make them? I'm. I hope Baselis ends up being good. I'm not the biggest. I think basketball Twitter's bigger on gozelisan. I am.

[Dave DeFore]

Yes.

[Esperaheni]

Hands up. Hands up. My bad on that. I'm very high.

[James Edwards]

I get it. I'm not mad at it. I understand it. And I thought there was some. Some positive moments last year.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

But I don't think he's. I don't think he's ready for that leap.

[Esperaheni]

No, not yet.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

I like the sumo, but like, he's not going to move. Like, this team just is not going to be able to score the ball.

[Dave DeFore]

It's a team full of role players.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

I agree. I will say for you Bulls fans, I think. I think this team can make a decently deep NBA cup run. They are poised for an NBA cup run.

[Dave DeFore]

They are.

[Esperaheni]

They're, like, perfect for Josh. Giddy had a triple double versus the Washington Wizards on a Tuesday night, and they are now 3. 0 in their NBA cup division. That is. Watch out for the Bulls.

[James Edwards]

I love that Josh.

[Dave DeFore]

He's not scared to throw up a heave, I'll say that.

[Esperaheni]

Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

That is what I will say. He will throw up a heave.

[James Edwards]

I. Oh. Every time Giddy's brought up while I'm on a pot, I owe him an apology. I just remember watching him at summer league and watching him dribble like a stick figure and just never thought. I didn't. I didn't get it with.

[Esperaheni]

This guy is very funny.

[James Edwards]

He just knows how to play. And it's worked. I don't. It's worked. I was wrong. And I continue to be on an apology tour until. Until I'm right, and then I'll tell everybody I told you so.

[Dave DeFore]

I do think they'll be big.

[Esperaheni]

One of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. They just. They don't have anybody.

[Dave DeFore]

They're not going to be good. Okay, we agree on Charlotte. We agree on Chicago. I. I think we're all in agreement there. So what's your third team, James?

[James Edwards]

The Miami Heat. Oh.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, wow.

[Esperaheni]

Okay. All right. I have a different team, by the way, so this is. We're not chalk anymore.

[James Edwards]

Okay. All right, so let's just. Let's just go through it really quick. All right, so first, let me say this. There's just nothing inspiring about this Heat team to me. I love bam. I want to make that clear. I think a BAM and Khalil Ware front court could be, like, fun. Like, I think it could be interesting. I like the Jovic signing. If you're on. Like, if you think Jovic is going to be a legit rotation player. Like, I think I've seen glimpses. I'm not, like, sold there like other parts of the basketball world is, but I. I understand why they think that's a good contract. Terry. Roger is just. It's bad. It's gone.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

Is Norm Powell capable of, like, keeping the scoreboard moving? Great year last year. Can he do it again? The, like, the. The Hawkez thing, like, that was. I don't think that was a sophomore slump. I think he was just a older rookie that came in and was, like, fine. And now it's kind of settled itself. I. My guy, Tech 19. Simone Fontechio. I like that addition. Right. And he was. He was pretty poor in Detroit last year. I don't think he's as bad as he was last year, but is that moving the needle? It's just not a very inspiring team, especially if Hero's out for a while.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, you're not a believer in Casperus? Jack has Jonas?

[James Edwards]

Not this year. No.

[Dave DeFore]

He looks pretty good.

[James Edwards]

Yeah. Yeah. I like them. I think there's something there. I watched him a lot in college. I. I do like his game. I just. I'm not. I'm not there yet. But, like, let's go through it. Right. So are Pacers or Heat?

[Esperaheni]

Pacers.

[Dave DeFore]

Pacers, I would say.

[James Edwards]

I just. Yeah, I think they know how they're going to play and it's just going to be like, I think they'll stink in the postseason, but, like, that's just a team you're not going to want to play on a Tuesday night in February. Yeah. Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

They're deeper too, I would say.

[James Edwards]

I think we all agree. Calves.

[Dave DeFore]

Yep.

[Esperaheni]

Yep.

[James Edwards]

Think we all agree. Pistons.

[Dave DeFore]

Yep. Yep.

[James Edwards]

Think we all agree. Bucks. Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

Yep.

[James Edwards]

I think we all agree. Hawks.

[Esperaheni]

Yep.

[James Edwards]

Dave.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[James Edwards]

Okay. I think we all agree Magic.

[Esperaheni]

Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

Yes.

[James Edwards]

Do we agree on Boston?

[Esperaheni]

No. That is the team that I have in the play in, so.

[Dave DeFore]

No, but wait a second.

[James Edwards]

No, you have them in the play. Sorry.

[Esperaheni]

I have Boston outside of the plan.

[Dave DeFore]

That's where we. So now this is going to be interesting. We'll get to Boston. I don't want to lose the threat on Miami because this is interesting because it seems like Boston, you're assuming they're going to pull the plug. Is that.

[Esperaheni]

Yes. 100. So look, I'm assuming not only are they going to pull the plug, but I think in February they're going to look at, hey, we're the nine or the 10 seed and we have to. They still have to get out of the tax. They still have to make another trade. You know, I think they have to.

[James Edwards]

Trade like Simons or what's the. The wing.

[Esperaheni]

Hauser.

[Dave DeFore]

Yes.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah. So. So they still have to make another trade. And their front court rotation isn't the greatest. Like, it's Nimus Keda and Chris Boucher and Luke Garza. And again, like I said, on the glass, you're going to get crushed on the glass. A very easy way to lose games in the NBA is not having a good center. And so, yeah, the Celtics are probably going to be middling in the east and then decide to pull the plug, which will be. They'll be like the 11 seat or something.

[James Edwards]

Should.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. Should they.

[James Edwards]

Just play them? Looks like he is almost Tatum looks like he might be ready for.

[Esperaheni]

No, I. I can't. I don't know, man. He shouldn't come back is my opinion. It's like that's fair.

[James Edwards]

Just. It's a lost season.

[Esperaheni]

Rest out the year.

[Dave DeFore]

You know.

[Esperaheni]

What is the point of being the eight seed and going up against a Mat Magic or Cavs or whoever you think is the number one seed. The Knicks in the round one. I don't necessarily see the vision there. Like first of all, imagine this. A top 10 pick in the summer with open flexibility for the Celtics to either trade or draft or go out and do something else to build a new team around Tatum and Brown and Derrick White. I feel like that's the sell for me if I'm a Celtics fan. It's like, hey, we can add this new level of flexibility if we get a top 10 lottery.

[Capital One Announcer]

I don't know.

[Esperaheni]

That's my.

[James Edwards]

That's my way of thinking.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

I just think there's still too much talent. Like if you just line it up like Jalen, Derrick White, Peytons.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Edwards]

I still just is a little bit more inspiring than what Miami has to offer right now. As. As we don't know. Heroes thing like Philly.

[Esperaheni]

That's like they're the big question.

[Dave DeFore]

Huge wild card.

[James Edwards]

They could win 30 games or 60 games.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

60S high.

[Dave DeFore]

I'll say this. I think Philly has too much talent. Even without like let's say Embiid plays 25 games. I still think they have too much talent. Unless they have another season that where everyone's hurt.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

To miss where I'm at. They've just got too many good guys. Too many good guys that can put the ball in the basket. Right. Like Tyres. Maxi is an All Star. Jared McCain was looking like the rookie of the year last year. If Paul George can. And he can hoop. So.

[James Edwards]

And they're. And they have guys expectations for Embiid. Like he's going to be flying under the radar. Absolutely. Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

Nobody. If he plays 20 games, no one will be shocked. If he plays 50 games, 60 games, people will be very shocked right there. That's the level of expectations for him beat this year.

[Dave DeFore]

Who do you guys have. Who do you guys have in the top of the East? Top five. I mean it might not even be. Might even legitimately be five teams that you have to think about in the east. If that makes sense.

[James Edwards]

I think we're chalk on this. I had. I struggled with the I wanted to do 5A and 5B, but I'll let. I'll.

[Esperaheni]

Okay, well, let's. Let's go down the list here.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. Cleveland team in the East, I want to start at the top.

[James Edwards]

Regular season, I have the Cavs.

[Esperaheni]

I like the way James answered that. Because regular season, I have the Cavs. In the playoffs, I would still have the Knicks as the better team.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's the way I've got them. I think the. The Cavs have just got so many bodies. They should be able to chew up wins. This is why, though, they shouldn't. They. They should not just go chew up wins. They need to experiment all season long and they need to be working on their. You know, the Bucks went through this a couple years before they won their title. They just, you know, you cannot be a one trick pony. And they need to figure out what are our other tricks. What else can we do come playoff time when our, when our bread and butter doesn't work? Knicks 2. That's chalk. Here's where it gets tricky.

[James Edwards]

Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

Do you give the Bucks the benefit of having Giannis and just the best player in the east, you know, one of the best players in the world.

[James Edwards]

I didn't move them. I didn't. I thought about it. This is like three through six. Man is.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, it opens up. It does open up.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

I win Orlando.

[Esperaheni]

I also went Orlando.

[James Edwards]

I know that they'll be. I know that they're as good as anybody on one side of the floor. I know that for a fact.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. So that's amazing. I have the Atlanta Hawks. I think that they're deep, they can score. I think they're going to win a ton of regular season games. So I have them. I think they're third best team in the regular season. At least they were fourth for me.

[Esperaheni]

I. So I have Hawks fourth. And the reason I have them fourth is because I just don't know. Christophs Verzing is with the health stuff, like, in general. How many games is he going to play for them is the big question.

[James Edwards]

Mark that I have. Well, not even just him. Like, it's not like I love Luke Canard, he's been injured a lot. Jalen Johnson just came off an injury.

[Esperaheni]

Yep.

[James Edwards]

There's stuff there to like. Yeah, like, I don't know. I think it's more than just Porzingis, but I agree, he's the. Probably the biggest piece that you want.

[Esperaheni]

Look, they have a high ceiling. Like, we could. We could be here in two months and Say, oh, absolutely. The Hawks are the third best team in the east, actually. Maybe they're in the conversation with the other two. But I just, just, I think right now Orlando's defense is what puts them over the edge for me for sure.

[Dave DeFore]

I've got Orlando four. I, I just, I worry about their offense, you know, what's their philosophy offensively? What kind of system do they have? Do they have the shooting? And I think this is where Desmond Bain becomes one of the most important players in the east because his shooting and playmaking on the ball I think is going to make, be a difference maker for them.

[James Edwards]

I agree.

[Dave DeFore]

Who's your, who, who's your five and six then? James?

[James Edwards]

So I toggled back and forth with Milwaukee and Detroit. Okay. I only went with Milwaukee because Giannis is the best player in the East. The reason I didn't do Detroit 5. As I kind of mentioned earlier, they're still not going for it.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

They have players I really like. Like, obviously Cade. Right. I love a star. I love stuff. I love like Ron Holland, like, I think is going to take a good leap. Tobias, like, he's the question mark for me. Like, does he have that drop off? Can they replace the Beasley efficiency with Charis and Duncan? Like, I have like, Malik was incredible last year.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[James Edwards]

And I just wonder if they like if those two can, can imitate that together. I wonder about the fit with Ivy. Like, I, I know Detroit's not. Last year was a shock to everybody there. They're clearly not going for it and investing in a team where they're going to have guys on major deals. Right. Like, they still, they want to see if last year was real. I just know that Milwaukee's going for it and I know Giannis is going to play X. Like going to play like every night. He always plays. The Hawks are a bit deeper. They're going for it. The Magic are going for it. Cade is going to be a top five player in the east this year. And if you tell me his first team all NBA or second team all NBA, I'm not surprised. If you tell me he's top five in MVP conversation, I'm not surprised. And they win 48 games. I'm not surprised. I just, I, I don't know. I just, I just hesitate to. If they can replicate what they did last year. Like, so many things went right and. But I also think they are, I think they are a better team than Milwaukee. Like 1 through 15. I would rather have the Pistons. It's just the other team has Giannis.

[Dave DeFore]

See, but what you said there, though.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Everything went right for Detroit last year. I'm very nervous about the Bucks this year because of the chatter about Giannis.

[Esperaheni]

We're aligned.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Exactly. Where everything could go wrong. I mean, the. There's a scenario in which Giannis forces the trade. Bucks somehow, like, are just floating around the play and already. And are pulling the plug, and they're one of those three teams that aren't the Wizards and Nets that missed the playoffs for sure because they just have nothing. Who's going to dribble the basketball for the Milwaukee Bucks this year?

[James Edwards]

You don't like Cole Anthony?

[Dave DeFore]

I like Cole Anthony just fine. Do you like him as your starting point guard on a. On a title?

[Esperaheni]

Does he start.

[James Edwards]

Is he.

[Esperaheni]

Is he.

[Dave DeFore]

Can they. Can they not start him?

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Who.

[James Edwards]

Let's see. Giannis, Gary Trent, Miles Turner, point guard Bobby Portis.

[Dave DeFore]

Are we going to try that? I mean, like.

[James Edwards]

Yeah, Kuzma, I think.

[Dave DeFore]

Dude.

[Esperaheni]

I think you guys are mistaken.

[James Edwards]

This.

[Esperaheni]

Giannis thinks he's the point guard. Yanis wants to be the point guard. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

I understand what everyone is thinking. Yeah. It's just bad thinking. But I have Detroit. I have Detroit 5, Detroit 5, Detroit 5. Because I just trust him a little bit more. And again, youth and depth are important in the regular season. This is a team that got the first taste of winning last year. I don't think that they're going to come back and I. If anything, they're going to be doubling down on what they did last year. Like, these young guys.

[James Edwards]

That's fair.

[Esperaheni]

You got to bank on. You got to bank on a little bit of the younger upside of the Pistons. Right. Because we just talked about how a SAR can take a leap. Maybe IB Ivy puts it all together during younger guy, like I said.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Esperaheni]

I don't know. That is better to take a leap on and take to make the bet that they'll be better than Milwaukee with AJ Green and, you know, like, just pieces. That sure might work. But do they excite you in any sort of way to be a top five team in the.

[Dave DeFore]

What's the box? Breakout potential? What's the thing that could surprise us? When you look at that team, there's nothing.

[James Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

Unless, like, Unless you really believe in Cole Anthony.

[James Edwards]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, the breakout thing is Giannis has, like, the best regular season in NBA history.

[Dave DeFore]

That would be. Yeah, right.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

And being coached by Doc Rivers, we know that there's a great chance for that. You agree with Bucks Detroit there?

[Esperaheni]

Yeah, I'M there. Yeah, I'm there. I, I, I like, I kind of want to just mention that the Pacers might be in this conversation.

[Dave DeFore]

They could be right. Andrew Nemhardt, I think, has a, it's is probably going to open a lot of eyes. He could have easily been my, my breakout guy. But I've been saying that for 18 months now. All right, guys, who is going to win the East? Who's coming out of the east and going to the Finals?

[Esperaheni]

This is a question for James right here.

[Dave DeFore]

I know I'm putting James on the spot.

[James Edwards]

So I don't like, I have my predictions piece coming out Thursday on the Knicks. I have the Knicks getting to the NBA Finals.

[Esperaheni]

Okay.

[James Edwards]

I don't, I don't. I wouldn't put money on it. There's no team in the East I would put money on. You could talk me into four of them. You could talk me out of four of them. I think it's going to be bumpy out of the gate for New York. Just trying to get used to the system. And that's part of why I have Cleveland winning the regular season. Like, they're just picking up from where they were last year. Right. Like, they the same coach, same core. Like they're just going. But if it clicks and they end up shooting more, threes end up being efficient, figuring out stuff defensively, I think the upside is higher because I think they have a better team than Cleveland in terms of, like, the versatility that they can go with 1 through 5. Like OG can guard 1 through 5 or 1 through 4. Mikel can guard 1 through 3. Yep. They have Mitchell Robinson if he's healthy. Like, I think he was one of the most dominant players all of last postseason with the offensive rebounding and how he just helps them so much defensively. Like they finished 13th in the regular season on defense. And again, they play their starters more than anybody. With Mitchell, he didn't come back till March and I think we would all agree he's probably their second best defender. Yeah, I just think that. And I've watched Mitchell Robinson punk Jared Allen. I have questions about Jared Allen against other really good centers. So when you said that earlier, I think that is something like if they can get Mobley at the 5 and address the Allen thing, like, I think there is. He doesn't always show up in the postseason.

[Esperaheni]

Yep.

[James Edwards]

I just think the Cavs, year after year, they flame out in the postseason. So until seen otherwise, like, I have to continue to think that will be the case. Orlando doesn't have the scoring. Yeah, but they could be so good defensively that it might not matter. Detroit's the one team that I still think they're just like a year away, but they might have the best blend of offense and defense when you take out the Knicks and Cavs of everybody else.

[Dave DeFore]

But also might have the, the most upside of any team in the East. Like it just, just the nature of the way that team is built. They have so many young guys that are talented that if they just pop, you know, all of a sudden.

[Esperaheni]

Well, if you, if you told me, you know, in April or sorry, in May that the Pistons are in the conference finals because all these guys put it together and they had some sort of miraculous run where they beat one of these teams, I would not be surprised. I think that was.

[James Edwards]

Beat the Knicks last year in the first round. Exactly.

[Esperaheni]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esperaheni]

I like. Yes, I like James's reasoning for the Knicks because the Cavs are in a prove it year. You know, this is what it is for the Cavs. It was like that for the Celtics before they won the championship. It was like that for the Nuggets before they won the championship. If you want to be in this conversation, if you want to win an NBA championship, you get slotted into this category of you have to prove it come playoff time. Especially when you've been a team that's won 60 plus games, that's had multiple 50 plus win seasons, that's. That has kept its core together. In terms of continuity, if you're, if you're not changing anything for us to feel excited about, you're banking on this continuity being the thing that puts you over the edge. It has to be them in terms of the pressure meter, if you will. That's why it's the Knicks. That's why I think the Knicks should go to the NBA Finals. And by the way, it's part of just like banking on Jalen Brunson in the playoffs. You know, he is so proven to be able to reach that moment and can match any type of moment that's required of him. I think in a half court setting where you just need a bucket, especially against the Cavs, I'm taking Jalen Brunson.

[Dave DeFore]

So.

[James Edwards]

Yep. I had one caveat really quick. Yeah, I think there's a caveat as. And I don't. It's taboo to talk about and I'm going to knock on wood for both teams. Cleveland and New York were very healthy last year.

[Esperaheni]

It's true.

[James Edwards]

Yeah. The odds of them being as healthy again, obviously, we, we all cover the league are, are very slim. They knew Mitch would be out for a while, so that doesn't really factor in. Jalen missed three and a half weeks with a rolled ankle. That was really it though.

[Esperaheni]

OG had a pretty healthy season, which is surprising.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[James Edwards]

Mikel again played all his games. Josh missed like games here and there. I don't even think he missed 10. But maybe. I don't think Cat missed too many games. Yeah, like they were relatively healthy as, as was Cleveland. You hope and pray that that stays the case again. Knock on wood for all the teams in the NBA. We don't want to see that. But that is something that could add another wrinkle to the already wrinkled Eastern Conference.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. All right, I'm with you guys. I think the Knicks, it's, it's their time. I believe in Jalen Brunson, especially as a fourth quarter playoff performer. The guy can just, he's proven time and time again that he can get a bucket. And I think Katt will have a better season than he had last year. I just think he more settled. I think a coach that's got a better offensive philosophy, especially when it comes to bigs and how to use them. It's not just pound the basketball and work until you get a shot. Like, I actually think Cat is going to have easier buckets this year. Yeah. So I'm a believer in the Knicks. James, thanks for hanging out, guys. Go and read James Edwards over at the Athletic. He's going to be covering the Knicks for us all season long. He'll be here, of course, after their, their opening night game. I hope next week Dave has moved.

[Esperaheni]

To tears from this.

[Dave DeFore]

You know what's funny is I yawned and all of a sudden my eyes started and I was trying to.

[Capital One Announcer]

No.

[Dave DeFore]

Sell that and get us out of here, but man, I had a tear running straight down my face. The, the yawn tear actually just totally crushed me here at the end of the show. But that's gonna do it for today's show, folks. Thank you guys for listening. Give us a rating, a review Wherever you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, whatever, like, and subscribe on YouTube, leave a comment in the comment section. Let us know who you think is going to win the east, who the best player in the east is. Is Jalen Brunson going to win MVP this year? That's actually, to me, one of the bigger questions. If the Knicks make the Finals, does that mean Jalen Brunson had had an MVP type season to kind of get him to that point? But let us know what you guys think about that again. For James Edwards and Esperaheni, I'm Dave DeFore and this has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us. You hi, I'm Adam Grant, host of the podcast Work Life. Did you know Paylocity offers one platform for HR finance and it that means innovative solutions like On Demand Payment, which offers employees access to wages prior to payday Flexible time tracking features which enable staff to clock in through their mobile device.

[James Edwards]

Numerous other cutting edge integrations are available.

[Dave DeFore]

To all your teams in one single place. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and bring teams [e-mail] 1.

[James Edwards]

Don't raise your voice to prove you're right. Focus your mind with every word of irrefutable fact you can find, because conviction is the calm that comes when you know that you really do know. People who read the Financial Times know that they can shape their own perspectives with confidence because their viewpoints are informed by genuinely unbiased journalism, clarity and conviction. Source FT subscribe to the Financial [e-mail].

[Esperaheni]

If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working.

[Dave DeFore]

Right, Grainger knows you need to understand.

[James Edwards]

What'S wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger.

[Dave DeFore]

Offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and.

[James Edwards]

Multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem.

[Esperaheni]

With Granger, you can be confident you.

[Dave DeFore]

Have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly.

[James Edwards]

Call 1-800-granger clickranger.com or just stop by.

[Dave DeFore]

Granger for the ones who get it done.