NBA Stock Watch with Fred Katz | Morning Shoot Around

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily: NBA Stock Watch with Fred Katz | Morning Shoot Around

Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: Andrew and Dave DuFour
Guest: Fred Katz (The Athletic)

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Overview

In this energetic, early-season episode, Andrew, Dave DuFour, and guest Fred Katz bring their informed, irreverent banter to an “NBA Stock Watch”—an assessment of which NBA teams, players, and trends deserve to have their “stock” rising or falling after a chaotic first week of the 2025–26 season. The episode blends deep X’s and O’s analysis, advanced stats, rookie takes, MVP narratives, and plenty of playful sarcasm.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stock Up: Eric Spoelstra and the Reimagined Miami Heat

Starts ~03:15

• Fred Katz’s “Stock Up” pick: Eric Spoelstra, despite already being considered one of the NBA’s best coaches, is getting even more buzz for dramatically retooling Miami’s offense.

  • Miami has virtually abandoned pick-and-roll and dribble handoff actions (“They are not setting screens at all—off the ball, on the ball, in transition,”—Fred, 04:01). Instead, the Heat employ a blistering pace and constant off-ball movement with few set plays, influenced by trends seen in Europe, particularly Paris basketball.
  • Stat: Heat are running an unprecedentedly low 19.8 pick-and-rolls per 100 possessions, less than half the previous record low (1819 Sixers with 38).

• Quote:

  “They are running it incredibly well... a team I did not think was fun to watch at all last year. Yeah, they're just fun to watch. They are just fun as hell.”—Fred Katz (06:53)

• Andrew draws parallels with European hoop trends:

  “Everybody kept saying, everybody wants to play like Paris...I didn’t think it would spread here this fast, but it makes sense when you’ve got athletes but not skill on the ball.”—Andrew (07:08)

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2. Stock Up: Tyrese Maxey & the Philadelphia 76ers' Guards

Starts ~08:52

• Tyrese Maxey is a revelation:

  • Early stat line: 37.5 PPG, 47% from three (9.5 attempts), 11.5 FTA, 8.3 assists, 3.8 rebounds (note: early small sample).
  • Maxey is giving the Sixers a “life raft” to the next era as Joel Embiid shows signs of decline defensively and inconsistently on offense.
  • Maxey could be an All-NBA guard if his production is remotely sustainable.

• Notable Stat: Maxey is averaging over 43 minutes per game early—Nick Nurse is leaning hard on his starters.

• Other guards getting stock up buzz:

  • Vijay Edgecombe and Quentin Grimes praised for shooting and explosiveness.
  • Sixers’ young backcourt seen as legit, with shooting percentages sometimes approaching 50% or more.

• Quote:

  “He could be one of the six best guards statistically this year... Maxey is a legit 30-foot threat, you have to guard him as soon as he crosses half court.”—Andrew (10:57)

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3. The Heat Offense and NBA Pick & Roll Evolution

Starts ~14:39

• Fred provides historical context on Miami’s offensive experiment:
  • Previous low for pick-and-roll actions per 100 possessions was 38; Miami is currently at 19.8, “halving” the prior record.
  • Emphasis on the league’s current offensive creativity—teams experimenting far more with movement, less structure, and drastically reduced screening.

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4. Foul Rates and Pace: League Trends & Referee Impact

Starts ~16:46

• Hosts debate surging NBA foul rates:
  • This season, 8 teams average 25+ personal fouls/game (vs. only one team in prior 10 years).
  • The high pace, more pressing, and ragged defensive styles are leading to increased fouling, not just officiating quirks.
• Quote:

  “You look at the list... The Raptors are 25th. Ball pressure without the personnel to do it... But also the officiating side, there are a lot of shooting fouls, too.”—Andrew (22:53)

• Both expect rates to normalize as teams (and officials) adjust.

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5. Stock Up: 2025 Rookie Class

Starts ~24:28

• Much better than last year: Star power, shooting, and competitiveness are apparent among new NBA rookies.

  • Standout names: Cooper Flagg (a little up and down), VJ Edgecombe, Dylan Harper, Con Knipple, Cedric Coward, Scion James, and others are all off to hot starts.
  • Rookie shooting stats are wild: Coward at 64%, Knipple at 53%, Kyler Murray Boyles at 50% from three, etc.

• Hornets praised for their draft haul (33:23), especially for picking up “connective” wings and a real NBA center.

• Playful moment:

  “Do you know what Trey Johnson’s real first name is?... Richard Johnson.”—Andrew & Dave (30:19)
  Discussion snowballs into a joking riff on NBA name oddities.

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6. Stock Up: Wizards’ Young Core

Starts ~35:36

• Keyshawn George & Alex Sarr: Are they the Wizards’ new foundation?
  • George compared (in flashes) to Paul George for his advanced shooting mechanics, ball-handling, and smooth game.
  • Sarr described as “awesome”—Wizards playing competitive ball with fun, young talent.
  • The pod marvels at Washington’s trajectory: “When was the last time the Wizards had their stock up? John Wall… the last time the Wizard stock was up, Enron stock was up.” (38:11)
• Quote:

  “He doesn’t look overmatched handling more. He doesn’t look overmatched as a facilitator. And the Wizards are staying in these games.”—Fred Katz (36:35)

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7. Stock Down: Atlanta Hawks (“Bread and Butter... Not So Much”)

Starts ~38:48

• Andrew vents at the Hawks for underperforming early:
  • “I’m annoyed with the Atlanta Hawks. This was supposed to just be bread and butter day one plug and play... and it has not been.” (38:48)
  • Trae Young’s role feels neutered and misused; his shots and assists are down.
  • Jalen Johnson good but not ascending as expected; injuries and thin depth exposed.
  • Team defensive struggles noted (e.g., giving up 138 to Raptors and 128 to Bulls).
• Quote:

  “You look at the teams that have quality backup bigs, and it’s the top half of the league in defense.”—Andrew (43:56)

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8. Stock Down: Teams Without Point Guards — Texas Edition

Starts ~47:56

• Rockets and Mavs under the microscope:

  • Houston’s offense: No clear organizer or system—just tough shots, offensive rebounding, and piecemeal guard play.
  • Dallas: Big for no reason, dead last in offensive rebounding and points per possession, despite a “6'10” point guard.”

• The hosts dissect how offensive rebounding is back in fashion around the league, helping teams like Houston mask offensive woes (brought up by Fred with deep-cut Knicks and Tibs references, 51:41).

• Consensus: Current structure might get reg-season wins, but both teams are non-viable in playoffs without real point guard/playmaking upgrades.

• Quote:

  “It’s amazing to me that the Houston Rockets not having an offense is not a bigger story... Eme Udoka—what’s the offensive philosophy... outside of go beat the man in front of you?”—Andrew (48:19)

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9. Quick Stock Down: Sacramento Kings (aka “Stock Down Kings”)

Starts ~56:25

• Brief roasted mention: Kings seen as a roster of talented individuals who don’t fit at all, drawing a "taco and chicken noodle soup" analogy.
• Quote:

  “The Kings are just a conglomeration of players...who make no sense next to anyone else they’re around and who bring out the best in no one around them.” —Fred (57:05)

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10. Stock Up: “Skinny Luka” & Early MVP Race

Starts ~59:34

• Luka Dončić is in rare early form: Averaging 46 PPG over first two games, looking fitter and more dominant.
• The MVP race is shaping up as “epic” (Dave, 60:29): Luka, Giannis, Jokic, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and even Victor Wembanyama mentioned.
  • Giannis up to 36-14-7 on 70% FG through 4 games: “That’s numbers a guy would put up in 1962.” (64:46)
  • Wembanyama averaging “six stocks a game” (blocks + steals), redefining defense for a winning Spurs team.
  • Jokic and SGA as wildcards. Spurs as a sneaky top-six team means Wembanyama could enter the discussion.
• Giannis seen as favorite due to strong narrative, “best numbers,” and clear value to Milwaukee.

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11. Other Notable Segments and Fun Moments

• Name riffs: The group riffs on NBA players with unique or unfortunate names, particularly “Dick Johnson, III.” (30:23–31:53)
• Wizards and their new “good vibes”:

  “Leaves you with good vibes and a loss... with flattened lottery odds, you don’t have to just be awful. Winning does matter. Learning how to win games when you’re young matters.” (37:27)

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Notable Quotes (by Timestamp)

• On Miami's Offense (Fred):

  “They are just fun as hell. I love watching the Miami Heat right now. I don’t miss their games.” (06:53)

• On Maxey and Sixers (Andrew):

  “He could be one of the six best guards statistically this year...he’s a legit 30-foot threat.” (10:57)

• On Officiating & Fouls (Andrew):

  “The defense right now has no chance...it slows the game down so much...Have some respect for the fans’ time.” (17:23)

• On the Atlanta Hawks (Andrew):

  “I’m annoyed with the Atlanta Hawks. This was supposed to just be bread and butter day one plug and play, and it has not been there.” (38:48)

• On Kings’ Roster (Fred):

  “The Kings are just a conglomeration of players who are good players...who make no sense next to anyone else they’re around and who bring out the best in no one around them.” (57:05)

• On Stock Up for Luka & the MVP Race (Dave):

  “What a joy to watch Luka. Honestly stock up on just, like, this year’s MVP race... It’s set up to be an epic MVP race.” (60:13)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:15: Fred’s Stock Up on Eric Spoelstra/Miami Heat’s Offense
• 08:52: Andrew’s Stock Up on Tyrese Maxey (Joe-embiid/Maxey/Sixers Guards)
• 14:39: Pick and roll/pacing historical breakdown
• 16:46: NBA foul rates, league-wide style & officiating
• 24:28: Rookie class stock up and Hornets draft praise
• 35:36: Wizards’ young core & “good vibes with a loss”
• 38:48: Hawks stock down and roster construction issues
• 47:56–55:56: Teams without point guards—Houston’s “tough shots or bust” offense and the regression of offensive rebounding; Dallas issues
• 56:25: Sacramento “Stock Down Kings”
• 59:34: Skinny Luka, the MVP race, and Giannis’ insane numbers

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Summary Table

| Stock Up | Stock Down | |--------------------|----------------------| | Eric Spoelstra | Atlanta Hawks | | Tyrese Maxey/Sixers| Houston/Dallas (PGs) | | 2025 Rookie Class | Sacramento Kings | | Wizards Young Core | | | Skinny Luka | | | Giannis, SGA, MVP Race| |

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Tone and Flow

The show is lively and irreverent, blending advanced analysis (“true sicko stats” as Andrew quips), big-picture trends (“let the ball do the work”), and inside jokes. The hosts and Fred are quick to pivot between analytics, eye tests, and jokes about NBA names and team “vibes.” All three are bullish on the league’s influx of young talent and early-season innovation, but not shy about calling out disappointing teams or trends (“bread and butter” Hawks, “giant but guardless” Texas teams, and the always-rebuilding Kings).

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This episode is required listening—or reading—for NBA fans who want early-season insights, a sense of what’s new and different in 2025–26, and a healthy dose of humor.

Transcript

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[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Welcome to the morning shoot around here on the Athletic NBA Daily presented by ebay. And today me and Dave Defore. Per usual, but we have a special guest, Fred Katz from the Athletic. I'm so excited to talk to Fred. Today we're going to do the NBA Stock Report. So we've watched a week of NBA basketball and it's probably way too early to do something like this. And that's why it's really fun. Fun to do it.

[Andrew]

We're speculators.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You know.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Fred, welcome to the show.

[Dave DeForest]

Thank you for having me. It's always just an honor to be on the screen with you and Dave.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

It's great. Privilege. Privilege. If you guys have comments or questions, put them in the chat. And if you are listening to the podcast version of this, please tune in with us. We. It's usually around lunchtime. Call it the morning shoot. Around. Usually around lunchtime on Wednesdays.

[Andrew]

It's morning here.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Okay.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Okay. We'd love to have you guys join in on the stream. Okay, let's start. Fred, since you're the guest, we'll let you go first. Let's go stock up first.

[Dave DeForest]

All right, I'm gonna stock up is good. First, let's start on. It's a lot of good stuff happening in the NBA. Let's start on something good. Stock up on the guy who we didn't. We already thought of as being like Amazon level stock. Like, if you thought having your stock in Amazon was steady, then imagine how steady it would be to have your stock in Eric Spolstra.

[Andrew]

Wow.

[Dave DeForest]

And yet I'm going stock up on Eric Spoelstra. Not necessarily because I'm sitting here thinking, Eric Spoelstra is so much better of a coach than we ever realized, but because I am probably more interested in the Miami Heat than I am in any other team in the league right now. And it's because of the way they're playing. You know, people have talked about how they're just not running pick and rolls anymore and that kind of stuff. I think that conversation is way too simplified. I was looking at the numbers the other day. First of all, it's not just that they're not running pick and rolls. I was looking at the numbers the other day. These might be a little bit.

[Andrew]

These are.

[Dave DeForest]

These are a little bit out of date now. But the. As of the other day, the Heat were running 22 pick and rolls per 100 possessions. That was last in the NBA by a long shot. 29th in the NBA was 42 pick and rolls for 100 possessions. So they were almost half of the second least pick and roll heavy offense in the NBA. But that simplifies it too much too, because the Heat aren't just not running pick and roll, right? And they're running a lot of the stuff we saw Memphis do last year. But they're doing it to way more of an extreme, is that they're not setting screens at all, Right? They don't set screens off the ball. They don't set screens on the ball. They don't set screens to free up guys in transition. They are getting the ball. They are going. They are playing the Fastest paced offense in the league. Notice I didn't say they're playing at a league leading pace because that's a useless stat. Stop using pace as a real stat. It's not a good stat. It tells you nothing and it has no correlation to good or bad teams. But they're playing at the fastest pace of any offense in the league in terms of actually like the vernacular term of that word. They are getting into their sets insanely quickly. They are rushing the ball down the floor to cross half court insanely quickly. They don't have Tyler Herro and I imagine when Tyler Herro gets back, whenever that is, they're going to be setting some more screens because I'm sure part of this is like you don't have your pick and roll ball handler, so you got to figure out other ways to score. But they're not running the dribble handoff stuff nearly as much as they used to with bam. They are just like cutting and replacing the cutter. It's a lot of stuff we saw in Memphis last year. We saw some of it in Cleveland last year. Memphis obviously got away from it to the extreme. Cleveland kind of actually got away from it. It's called cla. Like Cleveland got away from that CLA stuff a little bit as the season went on and, and, and has gotten away from it a little bit more this year, although it still has elements of it in the offense. But Miami is going to this strategy insanely hard and insanely deep and I think it's catching a lot of teams by surprise. I think he caught Orlando by surprise. I think he caught the Knicks by surprise. And their offense looks really good. And this was an offense that was incredibly stale for a few years. And I think everybody in Miami was like, we got to try something different. This is innovative. It's risky. I have no idea how it's going to look in the long term. I have no idea if the league is going to catch up to it and if people are going to not be taken by surprise as much. I have no idea how it might look during a playoff run. When a lot of playoff basketball is trying to create advantages and setting a screen, the purpose is to try to create an advantage in some way, shape or fashion. And if you take that out of your offense and you take away probably the easiest or at least the most intuitive way to create individual advantages during an offensive set, however, I'm extremely fascinated in it. They are running it incredibly well. It's, it's working so far and I find them insanely A team that I did not think was fun to watch at all last year. Yeah, they're just fun to watch. They are just fun as hell. I love watching the Miami Heat right now. I don't miss their games.

[Andrew]

When, when I was in Europe this summer, everybody kept saying everybody wants to play like Paris, right? What Thomas Isolo kind of came up with and, and, and made popular in Europe. I didn't think it was going to spread here this fast, but it makes sense when you're a team that's got athletes but not skill on the ball. It makes a ton of sense when you think about just the way that, I mean, they don't have anyone that you're scared of being able to go get their own shot. So this makes perfect sense. Get the ball moving. Let the ball do the work. Let your feet do the work. Yeah, I'm, I'm actually surprised that this is, that this is coming over this quickly. You know, I spent some time with Bayern Munich in their training camp and this is just what everybody's trying to do over there.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, you look at the handoffs, you're talking about that they've run six total handoffs in four games.

[Andrew]

Insane.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

And like what were the warriors of the league? The Knicks are the top of the league. They're at like 36, I think.

[Andrew]

Do you, do you guys remember off the top of your head or, or maybe we can look it up real quick. The warriors, like in their heyday, like with Steph. Because Steph is not a, a heavy duty like pick and roll ball handler guy. He's not a high volume guy. I, I wonder what those numbers would compare to, to what the Heat are doing right now. I mean this is kind of unprecedented in this high pick and roll era, to be honest with you.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, yeah, it, it, it is. It has been interesting to, to see with the Heat have done how they've kind of like remade. They made the, remade their roster to a degree. Obviously they had to post Jimmy Butler, but then they had to figure out like what. How are we going to actually have an offense with this team?

[Dave DeForest]

Right.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Because it's not a like super apparent what they should do and if they stuck with what they did, like they were already in the mud and then you're without like a true creator. So that, that has been cool. Yeah, my stock up. This is probably low hanging fruit, but Tyrese Maxey and the Philadelphia 76ers through four games, he's averaging 37 and a half points per game, shooting 47% from three on nine and a half attempts, taking 11 and a half free throws a game, 8.3 assists, 3.8 rebounds. That feels like a per 36 number or a per 100 possessions number. That's, that's what he's been doing so far. He's looked ridiculous. He's going to cool off at some point. Like he's not going to average 37 points a game. That's not going to happen. However, the Sixers, and we kind of thought this already, but I think it is just totally obvious that they have their life raft to the next iteration of the team. And you get to kind of see. I mean it's been really pretty sad watching Joel so far. Defensively there's almost nothing there. Offensively he'll get it going from time to time, but the fact that they have this guy, it, it raises the floor of their team in a significant way to where if he's healthy, like this is not going to be one of the worst teams in the league and, and he will be like one of the best guards in the league. As we see some of these guys start to age out over the next couple years, Terry Smackey is going to rise up and be probably one of those top three to five guards in the NBA.

[Andrew]

I mean he's got a shot at all NBA this year, right?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

If you play. I mean if he plays, he averages.

[Dave DeForest]

If he averages 38 a game, I think he's got a real chance at making third team hot. Yeah, I think he's got a real chance. If he breaks the, the non wilt scoring record, I think he's got a really good chance at seeing an award from it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean I just. He could be one of the six best guards statistically this year. Right? Embiid and PG are going to be in and out all year, Maxi. I mean, you know, he's mostly been healthy. He had the little hamstring thing, but I mean I don't see any reason why this isn't sustainable for him. His shooting is incredible. Mean, he was the best shooter in his draft class by far, but I didn't know he was going to shoot like this off the dribble. And now he's a legit 30 foot threat. Like you have to guard him as soon as he crosses half court and then he's so fast he can get to the basket. And now that they've got some other guys on the wing and the perimeter you have to guard. I don't know man, that Sixers are fun. It's a, it's a fun story. I wish, you know, Embiid, that part of it wasn't so sad because imagine these guys flying around, around, you know, like a peak MVP level Embiid, you.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Know, that's a contender. Yeah, that's like a true, that's a true contender.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

I mean, look, he's also gonna have the stats if, look, Nick Nurse has always been a. I'm gonna play my starters a lot of minutes.

[Andrew]

Yep.

[Dave DeForest]

These dudes are playing.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Right off the bat, like Maxi's averaging. They played one overtime game, but maxi is averaging 43 minutes a game right now through four games. Edgecombe is playing 40, is playing 39. When you got Kelly Oubrey playing 39, you know, that's just the intuitive decision like, like what champion hasn't had Kelly Oubre playing 39 minutes a game? You know, can you name one? I don't think you can name one. So you kind of have to do that. It's very Nick Nurse, who's great, he's obviously a great coach, but he, he loves playing his guys a ton of minutes and that's going to help the Maxi thing. I, I would add, like stock up for all the Sixers guards.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Like, truly, if Vijay Edgecombe is just like a holy crap kind of watch right now in terms of his unbelievable explosiveness and just his readiness, I'm. I'm sure somebody is going to say stock up for him at some point here because how could you not? And if you came away from last year watching Quentin Grimes on a tanking team fill a role that he probably wouldn't fill on a winning team as just a lead ball handler, go out and create some stuff. Like if you were watching that and you were wondering, okay, how do you evaluate this? What kind of player is he really? If you watch these first four games, like you can see, I mean, I don't think Quentin grimes is a 20 some odd point score, but you definitely see a world where that guy is contributing on both ends of the floor. Hitting a ton of threes, doing some occasional stuff off the dribble, averaging, you know, mid teens playing a lot of minutes for you is not really an exploitable player on either side of the court. Can attack closeouts. Like Grimes just been good. He's been shooting. All three of those guys have been shooting the ball like crazy from three. Edgecomb's 43 on seven attempts a game. Maxi is 47 on nine and a half and Grimes is 48 on almost seven attempts right now. I mean, those numbers are obviously going to come way down. But Max is an unbelievable shooter. Grimes is a very good three point shooter. Edgecomb, I think is going to hit threes at a very good rate. Like they've got, they've got real shooting and they've, they've got a, a good promising young backcourt there. Can I add one thing that has nothing to do with the Sixers? Because I want to follow up on something that Dave proposed, which will. Which will. We're going back to the Heat. I. I'm instilling chaos in this podcast, even though it's not my podcast. We're going back to the heat.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

So Second Spectrum started tracking pick and roll data in 2013. 14. So this is what, do the math. The 13th season. Sure that we've had pick and roll data for before this, but by the way, the, the like 16 warriors average 43 pick and rolls per 100 sessions.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Dave DeForest]

During the regular season. So until now, the record during this 13 year span for fewest pick and rolls per 100 possessions averaged by a team was the 1819 76ers. They averaged 38 pick and rolls per 100 possessions. And that is the record for the fewest pick and rolls per 100 average by a team in a single season. The heat are averaging 19.8 right now. They are having, they are having the previous lowest number that has been compiled by a team over 13 seasons. Yeah, I mean, do the math. They're 13, 13 seasons, 30 teams. It's 390, 390 different teams. And the Heat are having.

[Andrew]

They don't have time. They're flying, man. You can't. You. They, they don't take enough time to set up for, for a pick and roll. Like, it just doesn't. I mean, it's amazing. It's. It's been fun to watch.

[Dave DeForest]

So we talked about how they've got.

[Andrew]

Two 140 point regulation games already like this season. That is incredible. I don't know if it's sustainable. Right. We saw this with Memphis last year where I, I felt like they ran out of gas and you have to have a lot of guys to play this way, but they've got them. I mean, the one thing that Miami has is athletes. They lack skill, but they have athletes. And so leaning into that just makes sense. I mean, if you're not going to tank, you have to try. And, and this is where Eric Spoelstra, I think and we're gonna get a chance to really see how great of a coach he is. New stuff, right? Yep. We've been asking for new stuff. I want new stuff on defense, but, you know, that's hard.

[Dave DeForest]

Yes. I took us off track, Andrew.

[Andrew]

No, it's my turn.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

I think it's also, it's also tough when there's so many fouls in the NBA right now. Defensively, like, what do you guys make of that?

[Andrew]

I don't, I mean, it's just, I have complained about this the entire time I've done this, and, and I, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I, I understand that you can't. Maybe you, you don't feel like physically you can have these guys play a playoff style for 82 games, and that's why you call so many fouls. There has to be something better. I mean, how about just like, if, if you're gonna call the fouls like this, call the travels and moving screens, too, right? Like, the defense right now has no chance. But like Giannis in the game yesterday, he took a, I don't know. It was six steps with the gather. Now the gather step is broken. It's busted, and it's ruining basketball at every single level. I don't like it in general, but, like, six steps with the gather is outside even the spirit of the, the rule of the gather step, like, now you're just, you're flaunting it, Right. So I, I think that they've got some officiating challenges beyond that, but they're calling it tight because they just don't want it to be physical because they want to keep the injuries down. Like, I, I, I don't think that's a bad strategy. It's just not much fun, you know, I don't like watching free throws. Fred, we've talked about this before. Could you replace the free throw? Like, couldn't it be one for two? Right. Or something? Just, like, it slows the game down so much. And then last night, like, you have like an, it was an 11:15 Eastern start for the Warriors Clippers game.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And now you've got these guys, like, I mean, in that game, it didn't go that late, but, you know, you have a game where these teams are shooting like, 50, 60 free throws. I don't know. Have some respect for the fans. Time.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

I do appreciate that the, the honeymoon with NBC lasted a week before people started complaining about something with the broadcast. I do really appreciate that people gave it a full week of being like, man, this is so much better than tnt.

[Andrew]

Cnba.

[Dave DeForest]

You probably did it right. And then after a week, they're like 11:13 start time. I'm out. Done. Screw NBC. These late start times. What a disaster. Why is an 8pm game have to start at 8?

[Andrew]

16?

[Dave DeForest]

What is wrong with everybody here? Can't they just be punctual like everybody else in the world? I'm glad that it took a week of just real harm.

[Andrew]

Nature's healing.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah. Before we could get back to complaining.

[Andrew]

By next month, everyone's going to be on board with me on the anti nostalgia kick.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Round Ball Rock is bad. Actually, for now. Make a new thing. This AI Voiceover from. With the guy from when I was a kid. I can't remember his name off top of my head. That is weird and creepy and bad. You know, there are other people's voices that you could use for these. These intros. Like, it doesn't have to all be people from when I was a child. Right. Like, I don't know. It's just we're. We're perpetually stuck in this thing where we're in the future, but everything has to be old.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Dave's like, I'm sticking with skinny jeans. I'm looking back. Yeah.

[Andrew]

I'm not changing again.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

I'm looking back again. Ten years, and there's not a team that averaged 25 or more personal fouls per game. Like, the closest I can get is the 201617 Phoenix Suns, a team we all remember. They were terrible, but they averaged 24.8 fouls per game. There are eight teams right now averaging 25 or more fouls per game. Eight. It's a lot. It is. It is a lot. And I just wonder. This happens every year where the officiating starts a certain way. Teams adjust, the league adjusts, the officials adjust, and eventually we make it back to somewhere close to where we were last year. And so I just wonder if this is a trend that will continue. The paces are averaging 28.3 personal fouls per game, as are the Pistons. That exact same number. That. That is absurd. That is a crazy, crazy number of fouls.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah. So I have. I have two things. First of all, the 2016 Phoenix Suns. My goodness. There's one thing I know about the 2016 Phoenix Sunsets, and it's that they either had too many point guards or not enough point guards.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

And I don't remember which one, but if it's the Suns, I know it's one of those two. Secondly, I do think part of it. Look, look. Obviously, when you see a ton of fouls called the first place, you're going to Go is officiating, and that probably is the number one reason. And we do see this kind of stuff tend to even out throughout the year, and I imagine it will come down as the year goes on. But we have to talk about the style of play change and all of these teams that are trying to mimic the way the Indiana Pacers played last year without the personnel of the Pacers. Yeah, we've got offensive teams playing faster who's probably going to do some more fouls, because it's going to induce frantic defense. And then you've also got teams full court pressing more, which is also going to lead to more personal fouls. Because what's going to happen is if you get beat, it's going to lead to guys slapping down. It's going to lead to players being more tired, and when they're more tired, they're more likely to defend with their hands and not with their legs. And when you defend with your upper body instead of your lower body, that's when you end up fouling. Dave's a coach. He knows this. That's why you tell everybody, defend with your legs. Stay in front of a guy, as opposed to just swiping down with your hands or your arms. And on top of that, if you get beat on a press, it makes you more likely that you're going to have a mismatch, and that also makes it more likely the fouls are going to go up. So I do think there's a stylistic element to this, too, where teams are playing a style that is more likely for them to foul defensively and more likely for them to force fouls offensively. And that's bringing that stuff up, too.

[Andrew]

Yep. I mean, you look at the list. I mean, The Raptors are 25th. I think they're averaging 25. I mean, ball pressure without the personnel to do it. Let me. Let me send a bunch of bad defenders out who were wild. Yeah. But also the officiating site, there are a lot of shooting fouls, too. These are not just a lot of things only.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, I'm not. I. I think it's a mix of everything. Yeah, I think it's just the perfect storm. I think you're seeing a stylistic change, and you're seeing the game's called really tight on top of it, and that's how you get to this point of, like, more fouls. But I do think it'll come down throughout the season because, number one, officiating tends to turn into something that is a better product throughout the course of the season. Every year we see like, points of emphasis get emphasized to the extreme in October and November, and then they come down to more reasonable levels throughout the course of the year. And on top of that, every year we see teams say they want to play really fast right out the gate, and there's always increased pace in October and November and then teams start to die down for whatever their particular reasons are, and pace of the league really gets slower basically every single month, all the way into the playoffs throughout the course of a season. So I, I think both of those things are going to come down and, and fouls will come down with it. Even if it ends up being a high foul season by the end, I think it'll be not as high foul season as it seems to be right now.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, Dave, stock up.

[Andrew]

Stock down. Oh, stock up.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Sorry, I was. Did you do a stock up? Did you have one?

[Andrew]

I did. Well, yeah. Well, we talked about VJ Edge come a little bit, but yeah. How about the rookie class? This year's rookie class, way better than last year. The star potential in this class is absurd, obviously. Like Cooper flag. I've been up and down to start, but every other guy, Vijay Edgecombe, who we talked about, been amazing to start, looks like a star. Dylan Harper's been coming off the bench and I just don't know, like, what, what the spurs do. Canel in Charlotte has had a really good start. Cedric Coward has been amazing, like shooting the ball as a rookie, which is exactly what that team has needed forever, this rookie class. I mean, I know why everyone was excited last year because it did feel like all of my draft guys wanted to skip over last. Last year's draft class to get to this year. And it has paid off tremendously. I mean, Andrew, like, you do as much draft stuff as anybody who doesn't call themselves specifically a draft guy. Like, what's your read on. On this year's class? Are they living up to what you anticipated?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, I think they're better. I think they're quite a bit better. You know, because kind of the story coming into the season was that it's Cooper flag and then it's everybody else. Right? The everybody else has done quite well. And not only are these guys, a lot of these guys are shooting like absurd percentages right now.

[Andrew]

You don't think Cedric coward can shoot 70 from 3? Wow, what a hater, man.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Like, like, just listen to some of these percentages. Like cowards at 64. Con Canymple is at 53%. Kyler Murray Boyles is at 50 from 3. Like, that's not really his game. Jae gor is at 50. Asa Newell, who I think is probably like an underrated guy that's been pretty good for Atlanta is at 66%. Scion James is at 77. Like some of this stuff is going to level out. Like that's going to happen. But a lot of these guys are really good and they're super competitive too. You can, you can tell that a lot of these guys are ready to play in the NBA. Trey Johnson. Who, by the way, you guys know what Trey Johnson's real name is? Because it's not Trey and like, right, he's the third. I'm assuming he's the third, which Fred, you'll be glad to hear. No one's calling him Trey Johnson iii.

[Dave DeForest]

That's true. Why does no one go Trey Johnson the third and yet we hear Trey Murphy the third all the time.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Why is no one making the mistake with Trey Johnson?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

No one's making the mistake. He's just Trey Johnson. Do you know what his real first name is?

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[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

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[Dave DeForest]

I don't.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Richard Johnson.

[Dave DeForest]

Oh wow.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Dick.

[Dave DeForest]

How about Johnson?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Dick Johnson the Third? There's three of these guys wandering around the earth right now. Can you believe that?

[Dave DeForest]

There's three. There's three Dicks just walking around.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

There's three Dick Johnson wandering around.

[Dave DeForest]

That's almost as bad as Randy Johnson.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

It is.

[Dave DeForest]

Whose nickname was the Big Unit.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That's true.

[Dave DeForest]

I mean, the guy. The guy had.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

It's a good thing there aren't three Randy Johnsons.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

The birds.

[Andrew]

Definitely a lot.

[Dave DeForest]

If we lowercase it. They're definitely a lot. More than three. Randy Johnson.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Oh, absolutely. However, billions, I would say.

[Andrew]

Do you guys know the story of that? Randy Johnson keeps a stash of baseballs next to his bed instead of a bat in case someone breaks.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That's not true. Is that true?

[Andrew]

That's what he says.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That can't be true.

[Andrew]

I mean, maybe not. Now the guy's a photographer now, right?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That can't be true.

[Dave DeForest]

Gotta be a bit. Although I have to say, if I broke into somebody's house and Randy Johnson was waiting there, you know what he would do? He would just like, just so you couldn't avoid it, he would throw a slider at you and just. Just nail you.

[Andrew]

I don't know, man. I could hit a breaking ball.

[Dave DeForest]

So not Randy Johnson. Johnson take you out.

[Andrew]

Damn.

[Dave DeForest]

His name is Dick Johnson.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, yeah. Alex Spears. Text me the other day on that one. Shout out to.

[Dave DeForest]

At that point, you just gotta. You just gotta lean into it.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, no, he's not. Trey Johnson, everybody.

[Dave DeForest]

He's just like the broadcast needs to lean into it. Like, I want to hear. I want to hear like the Wizards broadcast being like Dick Johnson really inserting himself into that play.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Hey, to get us back on track, shout out to the Charlotte Hornets for just drafting really good players in this last draft.

[Andrew]

Like, bunch of solid guys.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

I think McNeely is going to be good. You know, obviously they got their top guys like Scion James. I think is can play. Obviously Colk Brenner is a guy. To bring it back to our previous conversation, Ryan Coltbrenner is a. Is. Is like a real center in the NBA and then you have at the top of the class Con Canipple looks like an. An awesome wing that's just like a connective player that. I mean, the Hornets have needed this kind of guy for a long time. Just somebody who can help bring some functionality to the offense. Like, I. I think that he is going to be so helpful to them. He's only 20 years old. Like, the guy is going to be really, really good for the Hornets. So I think they did just about as good as anybody in the draft after getting some like pretty bad luck. Like, they kind of needed a break, but they. They got it in the form of like all these draft picks are starting to work out for them.

[Dave DeForest]

Definitely. I mean, Kalkbrenner looks really good.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Like he is. They. They have a very strange center situation where they came into the year and I was like, what are they going to be doing at the 5? Because they. Mason Plumlee, who at this point is just like a great vet to have and not necessarily a great vet to start. And they have Mamadou D. Aquite who plays like his feet are on fire at all times. And I'm not sure there's a rebounder in the league who's more fun to watch. The guy just goes after freaking everything and I think he's probably the best rebounder in the NBA who's never boxed anyone out like he is. He is so great at just chasing after the balls, being a loose ball guy, and he's switchable and he's good.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Hold on, Spread. You're talking about Moussa Diabate.

[Dave DeForest]

That's what I just said, right?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

You said Mamata Diakit.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I was like.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

I was like, by the way, such a delightful guy. I don't. He. I. I had like, one of, like, the most like, fun interactions with an NBA player at the Thunder facility one day with Mamada Diakite. But that's not who you're talking about.

[Dave DeForest]

No, I'm talking about Musa Diabate.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Diaquite is such a delightful guy.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

He's awesome. I love that guy.

[Dave DeForest]

I covered him. I covered him with the Knicks.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, he is.

[Dave DeForest]

He is such a cheerful human being.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yes, yes.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, a hundred percent. And. And I just. I just called Musa Diabate him.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Oh, yeah, the Hornets. I was like, I think he is.

[Andrew]

He's not. Nope.

[Dave DeForest]

Although, look, now you can see how my brain works. And before we saw how Andrew's brain works because he went from calling out Dick Johnson to talking about Gnipple.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That's true.

[Dave DeForest]

And. And now you can see how mine works. By the way, Trey Johnson. We make the name comments about Trey Johnson. Trey Johnson. That guy's gonna be good.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

He can, like, he can really hoop.

[Andrew]

He is good.

[Dave DeForest]

That was a good pick at number six, too. Like, this whole draft looks awesome.

[Andrew]

Wizards. Hey, you're gonna have to go do some Wizards coverage. The Wizards are good.

[Dave DeForest]

Can we talk about good?

[Andrew]

But they're on a good path.

[Dave DeForest]

Can we raise Keyshawn George's stock?

[Andrew]

Yeah, we're talking about him. I mean, last night, man, the. The game that they played against the Sixers, him and Alex Sar. That's something. That's a thing.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

His ability to handle it. The four kind of reminds me of Paul George a little bit, the way he plays. And then the shot is smooth. Those back to back threes that were from the same spot where he just. He turns his body, which is like. That is an advanced shooting thing. That's something that. That usually takes a few years in the NBA because younger players have happy feet. And so just to have your feet ready and turn your body to receive the pass like he did, to be ready to shoot. Amazing. So what is this, his third season? Second season. Second.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Second season. And he's averaging it's through four games. It's early 20 points, nine boards, five assists, 1.3 seals, 1 1/2 blocks per game.

[Andrew]

That's awesome. It's amazing.

[Dave DeForest]

Forget about whether that is a season average or not, which it probably isn't, but that's just an impressive four game stretch for a dude entering a second season and whose role was a little uncertain coming into this year. Like we did. We didn't know if the Wizards were going to want to use him as more of a complimentary role player. If they were going to turn it over to him and be like, you know what, just go do your damn thing. And they have put him in a position to succeed and he looks comfortable. Like, he does not look overmatched handling more. He doesn't look over match as a facilitator. And the Wizards are staying in these games.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, they probably should have won last night against the Sixers.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah, probably should have. But it was great. Great tank game.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Leaves you with good vibes and a loss.

[Andrew]

I mean, be good and you can be like fun and competitive and still lose. You don't have to do whatever, you know, like Brooklyn is trying to do. You don't have to do that. Yeah, young players are not good enough to really win NBA games. And now with flattened lottery odds, you don't have to just be awful. And winning does matter. Learning how to win games when you're young matters. Sar was also awesome, by the way.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Stock up. Stock up for Sar, too.

[Andrew]

Stock up for the Wizards, which crazy.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

I get to see him in person on Thursday. I can't wait.

[Dave DeForest]

Wizards having their stock up. My goodness.

[Andrew]

I know.

[Dave DeForest]

The Wizards having their stock up. When was the last time Wizards had their stock up?

[Andrew]

John Wall.

[Dave DeForest]

The last time. The last time the wizard stock was up. Enron stock was up.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That's probably.

[Andrew]

It was like right after the housing crisis.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Yeah. Sheesh.

[Dave DeForest]

No, it was 2017. 2017. They came.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

A game away from the conference finals, but sure feels like the Amaran era.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Yeah. This is wild. Okay, stock down. Where are we going with Sock Down Dave?

[Andrew]

Man, this hurts me. But they. They do this to me all the time. I'm annoyed with the Atlanta Hawks. This was supposed to just be bread and butter day one plug and play, and it has not been there. Looks like there's been some regression from a couple of their guys. I'm just not. I'm not happy with the fit. Jalen Johnson's been good, but not overwhelming. Like. Like he hasn't just exploded in the way that I expected him to. And and maybe this is. You know, this is my own expectations. And then.

[Dave DeForest]

I don't know.

[Andrew]

There's been too many times where I'm seeing Trey Young in the corner when I'm watching them play offense, and I'm confused by it. It isn't that I don't think Trey should be off the ball, but that's an ineffective use of one of the most dynamic offensive players in basketball. I. I just. There is no reason that he can just stand in the. In the corner for a possession. So I'm a little bit confused by what they're doing. And obviously, the results have not been good.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, I think the other thing with the Hawks, too, is that, like, they have eight. They have a really good top eight. And I think the Hawks are going to be okay. I think they're going to be good.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, they have a really good top eight. And after that is where you're like, all right, is Snow gonna be able to sustain as, like, a ninth guy throughout the year? Or, you know, is. Is Mo Gay gonna play that role well enough to be able to do it? And when you're talking about a ninth guy, it's like, fine, you step in, you play her 15 minutes, you're all right during the regular season, but when Porzingis has missed a couple of games already and Jalen Johnson has missed the game with the ankle injury, and that doesn't seem to be serious, but Jalen Johnson has had injury issues basically every year. Porzingis is obviously dealing with, you know, pots, the condition that he had kept him out last year, and he's got the injury history on top of that. And you look at what happens to the roster when they're down to, like, six guys and it's not a playoff game, it's just an October game, then all of a sudden you're like, the Hawks look and feel thin. Porzingis is especially important for them, too. Yeah, like, I. I wrote a Hawk story leading into the season. I went down to Atlanta and. And I based that story around Christoph Sporzingis. And there's a reason why I wanted to talk to Porzingis for that story specifically. And it's because of how important he is to that team, how important he is. And. And this kind of stuff tends to happen with Kristaps Porzingis because of the style of player he is, as much as. Because of the quality of player that he is. But his ability to protect the rim behind Trey and open up the floor on the other side is so important for how The Hawks want to play, and they also want to play this incredibly fast, frantic style. But you want that sort of rim protector, you want that sort of versatility defensively that you can have where you can be like, all right, we're going to play a really good drop with Porzingis, and then when we need to, we're going to play really good, more aggressive, pick and roll defensive styles with Okongwu at the five. And you're going to be able to play a conglomera and Porzingis together. If you want that. You're going to be able to have multiple really good defensive wings with Dyson Daniels and Nikhil Alexander Walker. Dyson Daniels, who's off to a slow start offensively to begin this season also. And when Porzingis isn't there, I think it just changes the fabric of their team. And he's played in a couple games. He was really good in those couple of games, but he's only played in a couple of games. And, you know, I don't think the expectation is Chris steps poisonous play 65 games. But, you know, when they don't have Porzingis, it just looks. It just looks different. And I think they'll be okay, and I think they'll look good when they have Porzingis. But I agree, they have not looked anywhere near the best version of themselves over these first four games.

[Andrew]

Trey shots are down. He's not shooting it well, but his shots are down. Assists are down. Right. So other guys aren't shooting it as well. But then they've given up. 138 to the Raptors and 128 to the Bulls. They just don't have the defense. And maybe that's because of the lack of depth. Maybe this is going to settle itself out. But they're not. They're not coming out of the gate the way I expected them to. I had high expectations for them. I mean, I just, you know, I think Trey Young is again, one of the more talented offensive and dangerous offensive players in the NBA, and I really thought this team was built to highlight him. So I just had these high expectations. The, The Porzinga stuff is obviously, when we're doing previews of the season, the. The question is, well, is Porzingis going to be healthy?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And that seems like it's going to be the most important thing for the team.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Especially when one of their biggest problems is they don't really have a backup center.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Like that. That, to me, not having quality depth at center is like a really easy way to lose. Lose games in the NBA.

[Andrew]

Well, it's the core of the defense, Andrew. Like every. You look at the teams that have quality backup bigs and it's the top half of the league in defense.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

And. And even a backup point guard. Like, I like Nikhil. I think Nikhil's a really good player and a good secondary ball handler. But they don't have a real backup point guard either. Like, they have the depth that they have is all on the wing, which is good. Like you need that. But if you don't have a backup point guard and you don't have a backup center, like, it. It is. It gets really tricky to like, organize the offense and to have a competent defense for 48 minutes.

[Andrew]

I wonder if there's some hope that like Risa Shea has some internal development as a playmaker, because we've seen some of that. Right. Like he can handle, he can pass, but you just can't bank on that if you actually want to compete. Like, you have to have known knowns. The unknown stuff is all that's gravy on top. You know, finding out a guy can do some things along the way is extra. But if you think that if your goal is to compete for. For, you know, a title, which it seemed like that that's what they were trying to do, make the finals, you just have to have a known quantities. Nikhil, like you said, Nikhil is more of a combo guy.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So one of the reasons why I like them signing him was because he could play with Trey and he can score enough as an individual creator off the bench that you can. You can have him out there alone. But they almost. You almost have to have two of those guys if you don't have a guy who's more traditional point guard. So you. You need to add like Caris Lavert along with Nikhil Alexander Walker or something to that degree.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah. I think there was also faith that Dyson Daniels would. Would kind of continue his progression as a pick and roll ball handler. And that even though he's a starter, you know, you stagger him and Trey and you're able to play Daniels with the bench unit. And I think that that part has kind of lagged behind. We haven't seen progression from Jason Daniels. And look, this kind of sounds like the same conversation we've had about the Hawks for the last 976 years. Right. Which is when they muster enough offense with Trey Young. All right, court. And I. I still think the Hawks have a lot more to give on that front. And I think they will get there, but it. They obviously haven't really shown it over these first four games.

[Andrew]

Yeah, bumming me out.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Stock down for me. Teams in Texas that don't have point guards, we just thought like going into the season it was like, oh, these are really interesting experiments that are happening. They're. These teams are going to be giant in Houston and Dallas. You know how our team's going to deal with the like. Turns out like just being faster is helpful than. Than these teams. Now the. I don't really know what the offensive identity of the Houston Rockets is going to be ultimately. That they've kind of fallen into this ISO. Heavy basketball that is. That has not been great for them to this point. I don't really know what they're going to do outside of like, your turn, my turn. They don't have good shooting around kd. They don't have like a true pick and roll ball handler. They don't have somebody to organize their offense. I don't know what they're going to be. And Dallas is like all of that, but much worse. And there's like d' Angelo Russell just lurking in the background, like just, just waiting to take every shot. I don't know what happens to both these teams during the season. It does not look great offensively. Houston is obviously much better defensively. Dallas hasn't even looked good defensively so far. But turns out having guards on your team and multiple guards, good thing. You should do that. Look at, look at the other team in Texas right now. They have. They're going to have plenty, especially when de' Aaron Fox gets back. I think that it's like they're set, like they're in a really, really good spot. But when you don't have like a good primary ball handler, I think it sets you up to just be in a really strange spot, especially if you're trying to compete like Houston is.

[Andrew]

If you're going to play in Texas, you need a point guard in your starting lineup. Is that what you're saying?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Listen, Texas, anywhere, anywhere good.

[Andrew]

It's amazing to me that the Houston Rockets not having an offense is not a bigger story. And it. And they haven't had an offense. I mean, like Eme Odoka. What's the offensive philosophy of the Houston Rockets outside of go beat the man in front of you.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Make your shots. They are tough shot takers. You know, this was last season too, man. End of shot clock. Fred Van Vliet, the bailout option. Mr. Hand Grenade, right. Dylan Brooks, same way. And so, you know, this is why they have to offensive rebound like they have to be an elite offensive rebounding team. They need to probably lead the league in shot attempts actually because they are going to rely on tough shooting. Their shot diet is not going to be easy. It's not a, it's not a recipe for success come playoff time. And this idea that it. And even with Van Vliet, Van Vliet's not the point guard that solves this problem. The problem is systemic. They don't have one right. There is no system. There is no easy way to generate a bucket. How often outside of, oh, smart cutting. Smart cutting is great, but it's not reliable. Defenses can cut down cutting angles. You have to have. I mean running plays actually does matter. It opens up some of the read and react stuff. So I would love to see what it looked like if they had like offensive sets from time to time.

[Dave DeForest]

Their best offensive strategy, Dave, I don't think it's make shots. I think their best offensive strategy is actually missed shots. That's when their offense is the best.

[Andrew]

Well, the kick out to the three, right, the kick out on the offensive rebound to the three point shooter is the best play in basketball at any level.

[Dave DeForest]

And maybe I covered Tibs for too long, maybe I did. But here's what I'll say. I'm not as down on the Houston offense as you guys are. Maybe I'm down on the Houston offense as like a playoff offense. However, I think they are going to take more shots than any other team. They're. They're right now their bottom half of the league in effective field goal percentage. They played three games, whatever. Just saying this to demonstrate just the concept of what can happen with the math if it's stretched over a long period of time. And there have been teams that have done to this extreme over the course of a season. So this is not statistically impossible by any stretch. Grizzlies, Knicks, like the, the Tibbs Knicks, like Knicks had a year a few years ago where they were third in offense and they were like 20th in effective field goal percentage. And it was because they were the best offensive rebounding team in the league. Houston is getting 41 of their own misses right now. That is not a thing. And offensive rebounding is up across the whole league. The whole league has realized that offensive for rebounding, except for like a couple of teams, the whole league has realized offensive rebounding basically has no correlation to transition defense. If you do it the right way and we're going to crash Way more. And teams are crashing way more. They're forcing defensive teams to box out way more and they are going after offensive boards. There were like a few years ago, there were like a few teams, 3, 4, 5 who have a 30% offensive rebound rate. This year it's like more than half the league has a 30% offensive rebound rate right now.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Houston, there's a strategy called. It's tagging in right. Like you're, you basically when you crash, you crash behind the guy. So that way. Because more three pointers means longer rebounds. So the way that you limit transition is you literally block them with your body while going for the rebound. By the way, I checked while you were talking because I, you know, just on a hunch, the Milwaukee Bucks dead last in offensive rebounding. Doc Rivers was the guy who pioneered. Well, him and Tom Thibodeau pioneered getting back on defense. Which you know, again I, I it watching this evolve back to offensive rebounding. And then those Memphis years with Stephen Adams is one of the best offensive rebounders in NBA history.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Elite.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean it takes up so much space. But those Memphis years, it covered up for a lot of warts for the offense there. And it's do. It's going to do the same thing in Houston. I just to me that's a, that's a team that has title aspirations. You're not gonna, that is not going to happen in the playoffs. The, the foul like it's just not going to happen. Teams are going to be able to get more physical. Those shots that are already hard in the regular season are just going to be more, more difficult. I just, I don't know.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, you're probably right.

[Andrew]

Can they get Derek White?

[Dave DeForest]

Maybe they could. If the Celtics make them available. They have the resources to get anybody they want. They got the, they got the picks. They got the young players. They didn't extend Tari Eason like, which makes him tradable in these scenarios. Like they could do it. What I was going to add. Where is Houston right now? Points for possession. In spite of all the terrible offensive numbers. Where's Houston right now? Points for possession.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

You'll have to tell me. Third.

[Andrew]

Third. 121.2 offensive rating through three are.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, through three games. Whatever. Yeah, I don't think they're going to be third. My point is not that the Rockets are going to be the third best regular season offense in the league. My point point is if you get an insane amount of offensive rebounds, which they will, even if Stephen Adams has to exit the Lineup because, you know he needs time off or he gets hurt because that often happens. Like, even if that happens, they're going to get an insane amount of offensive rebounds. They are still absolutely massive in every way and they are built. Offensive rebound. I think during the regular season they are going to get enough offensive rebounds to be a legitimately good offense statistically. And I still think they're going to win a lot of games. But I agree with you in terms of their playoff viability, at some point that becomes untenable, especially because they're. Part of the reason they're good offensively is because they're very good in transition. And in the half court they just bog down and they have these insanely long possessions. They take forever to initiate and they take forever to find a good shot. And that obviously is a bad playoff trade. But in terms of regular season wins, I still think they're going to win a lot of games.

[Andrew]

I, I don't think we talk about basketball enough in direct possession battle terms and how important that is. Like just taking more shots than your opponent, more bites of the apple like that gives you a better shot to win. You win more often if you take more shots, period.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And if you can lead the league in shots, you probably are going to get 50 wins, period. If you take the most shots in the league, you're going to have 50 wins. It, it just, it. And, and this is my gut, right? Like someone look this up and please tell me I'm wrong, but it does. That's how it's, it's been the last few years. And so to me, I think that again, they should be able to churn regular season wins through defense and offensive rebounding. Absolutely. Yeah. The, the questions are this is post trade deadline, right? I, I think they're going to make a move because they do have the talent. Like this could be a title team.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, they, they do have the talent. They just need somebody to help them organize things. Dallas, on the other end of the offensive rebounding conversation is the, is the.

[Andrew]

Worst, which makes no sense.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Offensive rebound percentage, the worst.

[Dave DeForest]

You know, where's Dallas in, in points per possession right now?

[Andrew]

Right?

[Dave DeForest]

Dead last. Because that's your way of making up for it. You win the possession game.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Big for no reason. Big for no reason. You've got a 610 point guard, big for no reason. What are you doing? I just, I, I don't know. That's a bit befuddling. I, I just. You've got this excellent center rotation. I, I don't know. Yeah.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Do we want to end with a stock up? Make a little. Make a little Oreo here, Fred?

[Dave DeForest]

Sure, we can end with a stock up. I have. I didn't get to do a stock down, but I will. I. I just want to say this.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

I'm just gonna make a. I'm just gonna make a. A pun on the Sacramento Kings G League team, and I'm just gonna call them the Stock Down Kings.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Poor Kings fans, man. I just. I just find myself.

[Dave DeForest]

That's the only point I wanted to make.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Okay. I like that. I just feel bad for Deuce and Mo.

[Andrew]

I just.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That's. That's what I feel bad for.

[Dave DeForest]

The Kings are just a conglomeration of players who are good players.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Talented players.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Hall of Famers, and who make.

[Dave DeForest]

Who make no sense next to anyone else they're around and who bring out the best in. No one around them just.

[Andrew]

Is.

[Dave DeForest]

I mean, with. With DeRozan, Levine and Sabonis on the floor, they're getting outscored by 14 per 100 right now.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Hey, if I opened a pack of basketball cards, it would look like the King's roster. You know what I mean? Just no rhyme or reason. And if I was just, oh, man. Oh, I got a Sabonus, you know, it just. There is no rhyme or reason. They've had this issue. I mean, Sabonis is a major problem. He's hard to build around. He has to touch the ball, and he's not elite. And everything else cascades down from that. You have to have these other guys who can individually create, but they also can't defend. Your defense is never going to be good. I just. They're a team that needs to have a fire sale and just won't.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Can't. I would argue.

[Andrew]

Well, fair.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

What are. Like, what are you going to do? It's like if somebody brought dinner over and they're like, hey, I brought you a taco and chicken noodle soup. Like, just like. No. Like, there's nothing goes together. Like, individually, these things are pretty good. But. Yeah, I'm not going to.

[Dave DeForest]

You know what? I have to.

[Andrew]

You don't think Zach Levine could help a team? I mean, he's on an expiring deal. Right. Like, you don't think that there's a contender that.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

No, I don't. Dave.

[Andrew]

Orlando.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

No, no, no. That's the last thing Orlando needs.

[Dave DeForest]

Come on, Dave and I had completely different takeaways from your comment, because my takeaway was I would totally have a taco and chicken noodle soup.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

You would have a taco and chicken noodle soup.

[Dave DeForest]

No, if someone just brought over some free. Like a. Like a good taco and some chicken noodle soup. If it's good. Well, I'm thrilled. I'm not going to order it together.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Maybe. Maybe you're a Kings fan. I don't know. You're like, I like this. This isn't so bad.

[Dave DeForest]

Jeremy Lamb of this workplace.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Unreal. Now Davis is gone. David's just gone now.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, he's just. My. My camera overheated.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

This happens every shoot around. Okay, stock up. Stock back up. Let's. Let's. Let's go to. I don't think you have a Stock Up Kings thing on the other side of this, but what do you got?

[Dave DeForest]

No, no, that wouldn't be as good of a punk Down Kings, so I. I can't have that. Stock up for skinny Luca. Yeah, stock up, Skinny Luca.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

It's quite good.

[Dave DeForest]

Skinny Skinny Luca just gonna average 50 points a game and do everything that you want Luca to do. Apparently those two games from him were pretty. Pretty freaking magical and amazing. And it's. It's really. I mean, look, I'm sorry, Mavs fans. It must be. We just had a whole conversation about the Mavs being last and everything offensively.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

And now. Now we got to talk about Luca just looking awesome and it. What a. What a joy to watch Luca honestly stock up on just like this year's MVP race.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Is. I know it's super early.

[Andrew]

It's early. But it's never too early, though, with what's going on this first week. It's.

[Dave DeForest]

Is this absurd. I'm just saying, it's like. It's like set up to be an epic MVP race.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Because I just said stock up on Luka Doncic, who everybody agreed coming into this year was the top four player in the NBA. Everyone. And I honestly probably should have said stock up on Giannis and detecumpo before I said stock up on Luca.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Sure.

[Dave DeForest]

Because holy crap, Giannis. I texted Eric name. Our Bucks beat writer does an unbelievable job. Don't tell him.

[Andrew]

He's on the show this morning on.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

The NBA Daily Today.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, definitely don't tell Eric. I said he does an unbelievable job. But I texted Eric last night. I'm watching Bucks Nicks, and it's like the third Bucs game I've watched, and I'm like, is. Is Giannis better than he's ever been? Like, is he just. He's just a better pastor. He had, like, five dunks in that game where I was just like, what in the world? He dunked that. And he's always been that type of player, but he's playing with so much force. He is a better passer than ever, I think. I think he's a better attacker than ever. I think he's a better pick and roll facilitator than ever. He is playing fantastic defensively. He has just been legitimately doing everything for a team that absolutely requires him to do everything, but when he does everything, they're pretty freaking good. Luca, I just touched on, has scored 92 points in his first two games played. Victor Wembanyama is. Looks like he's just gonna have a season that we've never really seen since Wilt. I guess in terms of, you know, they weren't keeping track of blocks with Wilt, but you have to imagine that, you know, these are going to end up being like Wilty type numbers. If he's going to average 30 and 14 and four blocks or whatever, it's going to end up being. And this MVP race, I mean, Jokic putting up Jokic numbers as. As he will like, oh, we've been bored with Jokic.

[Andrew]

I mean, Jokic is just doing the Jokic thing. I mean, Shay averaging 40.

[Dave DeForest]

Shay's averaging like close to 40.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Like on the Giannis, this MVP race is.

[Andrew]

Is.

[Dave DeForest]

It's setting up to be a really cool one. That's going to really stress me out a lot when I have to vote.

[Andrew]

Giannis looks healthy and then I think coming off Euro basket, I think he's got a little bit of a. An edge to him, which a lot of these guys will. Right. Like just being sharper playing over the summer and playing and especially that competition for him where I know it. It meant a lot of. But the passing stuff, I'm not sure where that came from. That just came out of nowhere.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, he's always been a good passer.

[Andrew]

But, like, he has had good vision, but I wouldn't say he's been a good passer. He's. He's turned himself into a really good passer now. Like, he sees stuff, but he hasn't always been able to deliver. And now it feels like he's got real touch on his passing. That's different.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, he's been excellent and he's been excellent. Creating threes, too. The Bucks had a very specific goal that they wanted to take more threes this year, and last year they led the league in percentage, but they were, I think, 17th in attempts and they wanted to change that. Coming into this year, they really wanted to get into the top 10 in terms of attempts and become just a much more high frequency three point attack. And so much of that, if not all of it, hinged on Giannis's ability to get into the paint and create for others from there. And he is honestly executing it in as great of a way as I could possibly imagine it being. I mean, the numbers that he's. Can we just read his numbers really quick? Because again, this is one of those things where, like, yeah, it's early in the season. He's not going to average this for a whole season, but just a four game stretch of doing this at any point is pretty unbelievable. He is averaging 36, 14, seven assists. He's getting to the line as usual, 11 times a game, and he's shooting 70 from the field.

[Andrew]

What?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. That is. What, saying what?

[Dave DeForest]

How is this a thing?

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, it's. It's crazy. It is.

[Dave DeForest]

That's like numbers a guy would put up in 1962.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Yeah. The league is in a pretty wild place offensively. To start the year, there's 11 guys averaging 30 or more points per game.

[Andrew]

There have been how many 40 point games now? What are we up to? It was at least 16 the other night. Four 50 point games. And this is in October, and we've still got a couple days left. NBA Cup Friday night. And, you know, somebody's gonna go nuts Friday night.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Respecting the cup, of course.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Everybody's pumped.

[Andrew]

I actually, I thought Giannis was gonna pop last night for 50 because it was the Knicks, you know.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And he started slow, but then he had that amazing second half. Yeah, Fred, like, who's gonna win mvp? Like, just after. You just watched this week, just, like, how does it feel right now after this week? The narratives are being set.

[Dave DeForest]

I just said that this was going to stress me out when I had to make the decision, and Dave's like, let's push that moment up to.

[Andrew]

I think it's going to be Giannis.

[Dave DeForest]

Like, you know, I think I would.

[Andrew]

Eric made a great point on the show this morning, and he said everyone was so down on the Bucks that if Giannis does this and they're top four in the east, it's gonna be really hard not to vote for him. I think he's actually right. The argument is there. The narrative was laid beforehand and he's obviously gonna put the numbers up if they win. It feels like Giannis is going to have it.

[Dave DeForest]

I agree with Eric. I. I am not sleeping on the possibility of the thunder winning 70 games and people saying thunder just won 70 and Shea won last year and he had a better year this year. How is he not mvp? I could see Shay garnering votes that way. And hey, I, I didn't, I'll tell you this, I didn't see anyone having the spurs in the top six. I saw a lot of people who were really excited about the Spurs. I saw a lot of people who were maybe higher on the spurs than consensus. I didn't see anyone with the spurs in the top six. And to be clear, I didn't have the spurs in the top six. If Victor Wanbanyama is 30 and 14 and is by far not even close the best defensive player in the NBA.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Six stocks a game is what he's at right now. Six.

[Dave DeForest]

Right.

[Andrew]

By far.

[Dave DeForest]

It's, it's just not even close to, you know, second best defender in the.

[Andrew]

Teams have stopped shooting against him.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, they don't shoot rightfully so they're.

[Dave DeForest]

They'Re giving up like 20 some odd points per 100 possessions in the paint. When he's on the court. The hell yeah. Like teams, teams don't shoot. It's like double that when he's off the court. Like, teams do not shoot. When he is on the court. He completely changes the other team's shot profile on top of the fact that he's the best defensive playmaker in the entire league from a Blocks and Seals perspective. So if you've got a guy who is by far the best defensive player in the league who is also averaging 30 and is just playing with an incredible force, and the Spurs, I mean, we talked about how, what if the Bucks outplay expectations, they finish top four, like totally. The Bucks could win 48 games in a week East. They could win 50 games in a week East. They could finish top three, top four. It's on the table if Giannis is going to play like this and Giannis could win MVP that way. What if the spurs win the same amount of games, 48 games, but in a way better Western Conference. And when Minyama is putting up these numbers, like, that's, that's on the table too. And, and I do think people would probably lean Giannis over Wembanyama because right now I think I would say Giannis is the better player and I think he's the more respected player because Webanyama's 21. I think people are just going to lean more towards like, that dude's got the experience, but damn, Like, I don't think we can rule out Wemby. I don't think we could rule out Jokic. If people are going to be like, he just averaged a 30 point triple double again, there are.

[Andrew]

I think Jokic. I think Jokic has got no shot. He's had the best season ever five years in a row. Like, he's. It's not gonna happen. They would have to win 68, 70 games.

[Dave DeForest]

They could win 60 games.

[Andrew]

60. I don't think they can win 70. They don't have the, they don't have the guys for that.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah, they've never won 60 with. With Yokesh, which is interesting.

[Andrew]

But they got Tim Hardaway now, so.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Listen, that's what everyone waits for. He's been awesome when they try to win 60 games. B. Tall Air wants to know, quick question. Who wins a seven game series? The Bucks without Giannis or the Wizards. It's the Wizards. Easily. Easily.

[Andrew]

It's probably the Wizards. No, it's probably Kyle Kuzma.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

It's not even.

[Andrew]

Probably the Wizards.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

It's not even close.

[Andrew]

That's nuts.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That's a sweep.

[Andrew]

Giannis is the mvp.

[Dave DeForest]

Yeah, I was gonna say that's the answer.

[Andrew]

That's it.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

That's. That's the.

[Andrew]

Appreciate you. That's the argument that. Like that.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

But that the Bucks PR should send around to everybody. They should send that question to everybody that has a vote.

[Andrew]

Yep. No debate.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Every single person that has a vote should get that question.

[Dave DeForest]

Speaking of the Bucks, can I just go kind of an out there, stock up?

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave DeForest]

Stuck up. Ryan Rollins.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Absolutely.

[Dave DeForest]

Ryan Rollins.

[Andrew]

Is.

[Dave DeForest]

Is KPJ gonna get the starting spot?

[Andrew]

I don't know.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Shouldn't he. Shouldn't.

[Andrew]

I don't think so. Yeah, Ryan Rollins can be great for that.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

He.

[Andrew]

He can guard again. Another guy we talked about on the show, Eric Name, talked about how Rajan Rondo is like taking him under his wing and. Or Ryan Rollins has put himself under his wing and you know, you got a guy those kind of like that kind of wingspan, that kind of head for the ball, like as far as like being. He wants to be a good defender. Yeah, I like it. I'm. I'm happily surprised by the Bucks. That's a good story.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have another question in the chat? Why aren't you guys talking about the undefeated Bulls? Listen, here's why. Here's why we're not talking about the Bulls is because we're saving it for the Saturday slamming jam because that's our surprise team and we're very excited about it. Okay, there we go. So go ahead and leave me alone until Saturday. We'll talk about the Bulls then.

[Dave DeForest]

I mean, Andrew, I will say that, you know, Bulls fans are taking the team seriously when they say why aren't you talking about the undefeated Foals? You don't think they're as good as their record? And then they end the message which with laughing my ass up. That's when you know Bulls fans have really bought into this team.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

Shout out. Shout out to Bulls fans.

[Andrew]

Listen, we're if you can't be good, at least be fun. And the Bulls, they fight in every game. They play hard. It's fun.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

They think about to shock the world.

[Andrew]

They stink.

[Host (Andrew or Dave, likely Andrew)]

No, it's about to shock the world. They about to shock the world. Okay, thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Morning Shoot around. Please leave us a a comment on YouTube. You can comment on Spotify as well. Would really appreciate that. Hope you guys enjoy the rest of your day and we'll talk to you guys again tomorrow morning. If you love to travel, Capital One.

[Dave DeForest]

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