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- [00:00]
Host 1
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Mike Vorkunoff
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Mike Vorkunoff
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- [02:11]
Caitlin Cooper
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- [02:13]
Host 2
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Caitlin Cooper
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Host 2
Foreign.
- [02:36]
Host 1
Welcome to the Saturday Slam and Jam here on the Athletic NBA Daily. On today's show we're talking to Mike Borkinoff about the NBA Lottery and then Caitlin Cooper stops by to talk about the Indiana Pacers and then we'll do some Pacers trivia. Miro Sanders like with me I have Alex Spears and our buddy Mike Vorkanoff from the athletic Mike. What's up?
- [03:00]
Mike Vorkunoff
What's going on? I'm happy that I'm the opening act for Caitlin because that's the way it should be. Like, yeah, everyone's like, get through this guy. Let's get to the actual star, please.
- [03:09]
Host 1
She's so good. Every time I talk to her, I'm like, man, I know less about basketball than I thought I did. You know, she's so good.
- [03:17]
Host 2
Me too.
- [03:18]
Host 1
Looking forward to that. So, Mike, this week you got to witness one of the most dramatic and bizarre draft lotteries in NBA history. You're one of the media members invited to the lottery drawing room where the actual draft order is determined in front of team officials and other media members. What were some of the highlights from that overall experience for you?
- [03:41]
Mike Vorkunoff
I think firstly it was, you know, just like, I think when Dallas won the lottery, everyone. Everyone's. Everyone's reaction and like, the theme of the night was just utter disbelief, right? Like, it was a combination of shock, surprise, laughter. You know, you had execs saying, like, nico traded Cooper for a Luca for Cooper. Right? Like, I think everyone. I don't say they were in on the bit, but like, everyone had the same thoughts pretty much because it was such a wild outcome that I think was probably the most unpredictable way the lottery could have gone. I know they didn't have the longest odds, but it was probably the most, like, chaotic potential outcome. And then, you know, there's. There's a lot going on, aside from San Antonio, number two pick. There's the roller coaster ride of what happened with the Sixers and the Thunders picks, which are kind of, you know, conjoined there. And it was really funny. When you're in this room, you're in there the first 15 minutes, all your communications are taken away, your phone's taken away. If you have a digital watch, they take that from you. And so you're in there for like 75 minutes, hour and a half, and the lottery's done in 15 minutes. Like, it's just. It goes like, quick. And the rest of the time you're just there to talk to people. And at some point, the broadcast, the ESPN broadcast of the lottery comes on. And usually people don't watch it because they know what's going to happen already. And sometimes they do. Like, I remember in 2019, the year that the Knicks were one of three teams with the highest odds, they kept playing up Knicks angle on the broadcast and like, yeah, so can the Knicks win the number one pick? And inside, everyone knew it was already, you know, not going to happen. And there's just like, you know, some. Some laughter at that.
- [05:27]
Host 2
This time it was.
- [05:28]
Mike Vorkunoff
The broadcast was about how, if you remember, Kevin Nandi at some point says the Sixers lost their first overall pick. And there was like some grumbling about it and some laughter about it. And then when he comes back around, he's like, oh, wait, never mind. They now have a top four pick. It was like the same type of reaction. It was this very, in real time response to the broadcast vis a vis that you knew the future already. So it was like, kind of funny to watch because everyone was watching the broadcast, including Sam Prestig, who was obviously in the room there on behalf of the Thunder. But yeah, I think. I think once everyone kind of like internalized that the Mavericks won the lottery, it. The vibes were. The vibes were interesting.
- [06:10]
Host 2
It's.
- [06:11]
Host 1
It's probably such a cool environment too, because it, because you don't have your phones, like, that's probably the first thing that people go to after, like an event like that. And you not having that forces you to like, actually interact with people. I'm sure it just creates like one of the more like, unique environments that you can be in right now in sports.
- [06:29]
Mike Vorkunoff
Yeah, that's why I try to do it as often as I can. I think this is my, like, fifth or sixth time. And you're right. Like the fact that you take your phone away, you know, usually you find out and then you start texting your friends or you start texting people in the league that you know you don't have that option. And so you just start talking to some GM or you start talking to some NBA person and everyone's in the same wavelength. They're like, I got to talk about this. The only people I could talk about it with are stuck in this room with me. So let's just talk about it for the next hour and, like, try to digest what just happened.
- [06:58]
Host 1
Oh, that's so awesome.
- [07:00]
Host 2
So Dallas getting the number one pick unsurprisingly and understandably set off a lot of talk from NBA fans about the lottery being rigged. Rigged. Now, Mike, back in 2019, you wrote an article where you investigated the idea of rigging the lottery and how realistic of a scenario it would be to pull off. What were some of your big takeaways from doing that story?
- [07:21]
Mike Vorkunoff
Well, for one, the NBA does not like when you talk about rigging the lottery. I think understandably so. You know, when I, when I got on the phone to talk with someone from the NBA about this. I still remember their first response was, so you want to talk about committing a felony, which, you know, in the past, where we've seen past lotteries get rigged, that, yes, it was. It was a crime to do that. Right? We've seen that with state lotteries. So kind of a taboo subject. But, you know, it's. It's really hard to do. And I think that's why the league goes for the level of transparency that it does. Right? Allows media members, allows someone from each team in there to make sure that everyone knows it's on the up and up. And, you know, we watch this big, clear lottery machine, this big drum with air circulating through it, and the ping pong balls come up to the very top in succession for four numbers just to make sure everyone understands, like, this is how it works. Stop asking us after the fact if it's rigged. And I think it's fascinating, really. It's more of like an exercise in how the human brain works more than anything else. Right? If we're unable to. If we're unable to understand things that we did not expect or that we can't clearly explain, we start kind of creating conspiracy theories, right? And we've seen this a lot in the last few years. Like, we start creating conspiracy theories to explain the unknowable or what we don't want to hear. And in some way, it also kind of just explains maybe our lack of really, truly being able to internalize probabilities. Just that if something is unlikely to happen does not mean that it actually will not happen. Right? So a 1.8 chance does not mean a 0.0% chance.
- [08:58]
Host 2
I also feel like a lot of fans don't realize that you can go watch what you saw. It is on NBA.com they put the actual draft lottery in that room. That video is online. You can just go watch it. They don't publicize it that much, but it's there. You can go watch it.
- [09:14]
Mike Vorkunoff
It's not a very exciting video. Everyone's very, like, chill in the room now, which I kind of don't like. I remember the first year I did it again, it was 2019, and it was the Zion lottery and the Pelicans won. And Alvin Gentry was in there for the Pelicans, and he just jumped up and he screamed, you know, f. Yeah, it was great. And I was like, this is how you need to react to winning the number one pick in a year with, like, a Zion, like, draft pick. And then every year since, like, everyone's like, very quiet, very demure. Like Brian Wright, the year they won, you know, the spurs won the Wemby draft was just like, sitting there quietly. I'm like, guys like, you should be okay. You can celebrate. You can fist pump, you can jump sports.
- [09:50]
Host 1
Come on.
- [09:51]
Mike Vorkunoff
Yeah, but everyone wants to be nice and professional and all that boring stuff we all hate.
- [09:57]
Host 1
Man, I need to go at some point because it's just like, it's so fascinating to me, you know, I think it's just. It is one of the cooler days. It's just hard whenever the conspiracies just make more sense in your brain than, like, the actual results. Especially when it's tied to, like, it's not tied to. But it feels like it's tied to the Luca trademark. Just like, it just gets more muddy and more messy, you know, for the league itself. But, you know, that's. I don't know. It's. It's been such a wild week. I just can't believe it.
- [10:30]
Mike Vorkunoff
It's funny I asked, like, it is tied to the Luca trade, right? Like, I think it's clearly tied if they don't.
- [10:35]
Host 2
True.
- [10:35]
Mike Vorkunoff
Yeah, they don't. If they don't trade Luca, they don't miss the playoffs. They don't lose their playing game. Like, they're not here. They're, you know, whatever. Whatever happens to the team this series. And also it's tied to then them winning the coin flip with the Chicago Bulls too. Right. Win that coin flip to get 0.1% more lottery odds in the exact combination that they did. So, you know, sorry, sorry, Bulls fans. But it was funny I asked a few executives, you know, I was like, would you trade Luca for Cooper and Anthony Davis in a first round pick? Right. Like, that's kind of what happened here. And I, you know, a few think that they would have. So, like, when you're talking about, like, is this a trade I would make now? And in hindsight, like, it might be for a few, you know, kind of like teams around the league.
- [11:20]
Host 1
Yeah. I think, like, even in the future, like, this may all get lost, and you're like, wait, how did they get this team? It's like, well, they traded Luca and then they ended up getting this team. Yeah. It's crazy. So let's keep talking about the Mavericks a little bit. The Mavs won. The Mavs win Also had a lot of NBA people talking about whether they need to be any changes made by flattening the lottery odds to make the scenario, this kind of scenario even less likely in Your conversations around the league, what is your impression of how teams feel about flattened lottery odds and whether there would be a push to revisit the draft lottery reform?
- [11:55]
Mike Vorkunoff
I, I find it funny. First of all, there is, I think some teams and, or, you know, top kind of like decision makers and teams who are interested in lottery reform. Right. And this comes on the back of like a month and a half ago we were talking about a different kind of lottery reform, which is to try to help against tanking, which would essentially be, you know, down waiting the lottery odds for the worst teams. Right. To stop, you know, the Jazz from doing what they did or the Sixers from doing what they did. But the reaction out of this lottery, and I, I think they had it even before this was just that, like, maybe we need to find a way to reward, not reward, to give a chance, a way for the worst teams to get talent. You know, this is their best way to acquire like the potential great player. Like no free agent's going to go to Charlotte. Nobody's going to push their way to Utah. D.C. is a huge market, but that just hasn't been how their history has gone. And so it's, you know, some people might be interested in kind of pushing up to 20% or whatever that might be for the worst, for the worst teams. And it's kind of, it's a hard road to walk if you're the NBA trying to figure out like, okay, how do we make the lottery so nobody tanks. But then also how do we make the lottery so the Washington Wizards can get out of this multi year tank with some level of talent that's not, you know, the number six pick and Alex Sar. Because, you know, the part of it too is not just are you lucky in the lottery, are you lucky in the lottery in the right year? Right. Like getting them is not the same as getting the pick this year or 2023.
- [13:24]
Host 1
Not even close.
- [13:25]
Caitlin Cooper
Yeah.
- [13:26]
Host 2
So in addition to attending the lottery, you also wrote an article this week for the Athletic about home court advantage in the playoffs and how its importance has changed over the years. This is obviously a huge topic for a lot of Nuggets and Thunder fans this weekend. What were some of the key stats from your findings and do you have any theories as to why home court advantage isn't quite what it used to be?
- [13:46]
Mike Vorkunoff
Oh, man, I miss home court advantage. It was fun. RIP Home court advantage. I guess we'll see for this weekend.
- [13:54]
Host 2
I know.
- [13:54]
Mike Vorkunoff
Yeah. I mean the stats are, well, the stats, the stats are pretty clear in that we've seen a trend over the last 10 years of home court advantage in the playoffs going down. Obviously that correlates with home court advantage going down in the regular season too. You know, teams are winning a smaller percentage of their home games across the league. And, you know, I think after, I think it was the game Wednesday night or something like that, or Tuesday night, home teams were just 31 and 30, you know, these playoffs, which is crazy. Like they were winning 70% of their games like eight years ago. Now they're barely above.500. You're talking about like basically this almost the same rate that home teams, home teams and air quotes won during the bubble in 2020 when there was no actual home court advantage, right? Everyone was playing in the same sterile place. You know, my theory is that this kind of has to do with the rise of three point shooting, right? You see a pretty good. You see, if teams shoot even one road team shoot even one more three in a game, then the home team, like they win the majority of the time in the playoffs this year and I think in years past, last year too. And obviously three point variance can explain for a lot of it just, it's, if you're able to shoot threes well, you can make up for talent inefficiencies if you get hot. If we, I mean, the Celtics, we've even seen that, right? Like, three point variance has kind of explained their playoff path to some degree against the Knicks too, when they've shot poorly, they blow 200 point leads and they lose those games. So I think there's a, there's a correlation there. And, you know, I haven't been able to do the research, but I'd be very curious to see what it says. But obviously the last two years have also been this very physical sort of playoffs where the referees have not been making as many calls, right? And so it's, you know, usually the more talented teams are able to get to the line more frequently, right? And so that's another sort of variance that comes into play. So those are, those are my two best theories for what's going on. And I'm kind of curious how this plays out in the conference finals and the finals as well, because, you know, does it flatten, Flatten things up a little bit more? And as we talk about the age of parity, this is just one more example of it and one more kind of stripping away of the advantages for large markets or great teams or whatever the case may be. Like this might be the first time since in the three point era, where the NBA has had multiple 61 teams in the season, and not one of them gets beyond this conference semifinals. Right. If the Thunder moves in game seven and. And the Celtics obviously get finished off by the Knicks.
- [16:25]
Host 1
Yeah, it's been fascinating. It's been, like, totally unpredictable. Like, I feel like. Like, as the playoffs go on, I feel like I just know less and less about what's going to happen or what these teams are going to do. It's just. It's kind of great to cover. Like, it makes it. It makes it kind of a lot more fun. Last question. Mike, you cover the business of basketball for us here at the Athletic. Looking ahead to this summer, what are some stories that you expect to be following expansion? Maybe the Blazer sale? What are some other things?
- [16:56]
Mike Vorkunoff
Yeah, the Blazer sale is a big one. They went up for sale officially earlier this week. You know, the timing was very interesting because as you said, expansion is at the forefront of the league. And so are they trying to front run expansion and see if they can get sold before maybe teams in Vegas or Los or Seattle go on the market? Right. Does that impact expansion at all, too? Does they have to. Does the NBA choose to push expansion back to finish off the Blazer sale? Because I don't know if you want three teams on the market all at once, that's not great from supply and demand standpoint. Right. Let alone just trying to navigate all those things and have multiple bidders, like, across possibly like, three different teams. Like, that's a messy situation. So those are two things that I'll definitely be following. I. I am kind of curious to see, you know, the further impact of the second apron and the finances of the new cba. The financial rules of the cba. Right. Like, the Celtics have a big decision to make. If they keep this team together, they're paying, what, $470 million or more in total salary plus luxury tax. You know, everyone's trying to duck out of it. Will the Bucks try to duck out of the tax altogether? Right. Even if they keep Giannis. You know, this is. This is the further. This is, I think, another kind of flashpoint in the new cba because the new repeater taxes kick in this summer, and they're going to be very, very, very expensive, which makes, you know, even harder for teams to be living not only in the second apron, but just above the luxury tax altogether.
- [18:26]
Host 2
Yeah. On the Blazer.
- [18:27]
Mike Vorkunoff
These are not sexy things.
- [18:30]
Host 2
On the Blazer sale. It's so wild to me that, you know, Phil Knight makes that offer of 2 billion back in 2022. And at the time it seemed like, you know, competitive. You know, it didn't seem out of the realm of possibility that they might be sold, you know, if there was some more negotiation. And now just three years later, that is, that would be such an uncompetitive offer. You know, it seems like with the Celtics selling for 6 billion, like is it realistic that the Blazers could be sold for like 4 billion? I mean, that's what the Suns were sold for.
- [19:02]
Mike Vorkunoff
I mean I would think that's, you know, I would think like three and a half billion is the floor. The Hornets, right. Kind of a smaller market, no history kind of franchise went for $3 billion a few years ago. I would think the blazers are at 4. But again, and this is, this is the qualifier that I'm throwing up as of right now. And I'm still trying to get a kind of like a lay of the land. But if you expect the NBA to expand within the next few years, do you show as much interest in the Blazers, right. Or do you try to get ahead of expansion? And that drives the Blazers price up because some people are thinking they can get in for a cheaper price there to buy an NBA team. So the, the interplay of those two things is kind of fascinating. But yeah, like these, these prices are astronomical, you know, and like the Paul Allen Trust also has, or Paul Allen Estate also has the Seattle Seahawks. And like what are they going to go for when they hit the market, right? Like are we going to see a 10 billion dollar NFL team? Like all these numbers to just who's rich enough to buy them becomes a question here.
- [20:01]
Host 2
And I'm super interested because the, in this case in Portland, the city owns the building, the Modus center. And so that theory, you know, that wouldn't be part of the deal similar to what happened in Boston. So I don't know how that would affect it. Although clearly it didn't really affect it in Boston since they went for 6 billion. But yeah, I'm super interested to see how it plays out because that whole, the Modus center is, it like hasn't really been built up. Like there's just not a ton around that arena. And so I'm interested to see like what a new owner would want to do with that entire space when they don't own the building.
- [20:37]
Mike Vorkunoff
Yeah, and there's also kind of like a time, I don't say time crunch, but there is, you know, time is important here because I think the Blazers are set to refurbish the motor center over the next few summers ahead of the WNBA team getting there. And I think they're hosting a. A women's Final four as well. So who pays for that? If she continue, you know, either whether the Blazers continue to own the team. Sorry, Whether the, you know, Jody Allen continues to own the team, or she sells it to someone else. Like, who pays for that? Do you want to pay for remodeling the Motor Center? If you come in and you buy the team and you want to build your own thing for the reasons that you said, Right?
- [21:13]
Host 2
Yeah. Now, Mike, before you go, we are going to put you on the spot because every week for the last four weeks, we've been doing an NBA championship draft. You can see the results from the last four weeks. Now, this week, we're only going to draft three teams because. Because we're. We're getting close to the end here. Now, how this works is we're just going to each pick one team. Now, I did. I did do a special this week, a two for one special. You can take Denver and get Boston. You can get both two for one. So think about that. Something to think about. Now, Mike, would you like to draft first, second, or third? How confident are you in who you think the NBA champion is going to be? Which I feel like is the hardest question ever in my lifetime. At this point in the playoffs, I.
- [22:11]
Mike Vorkunoff
Feel like we were just talking about the fact that nobody knows anything anymore, so I don't know what the value is of the first overall pick. Do I get anything for picking last? Do I get two picks? Like, what are the rules? How can I gain?
- [22:23]
Host 2
You would, because it. Normally it was a snake draft, but in this case, there's not really a benefit to the third because we just don't have enough teams left.
- [22:33]
Mike Vorkunoff
I still want to pick last because I want to be able to say that I got the last pick and still was.
- [22:37]
Host 1
Right.
- [22:38]
Host 2
All right, Andrew. Andrew, I'm going to make you pick first because you made me pick first last week, and I don't think so.
- [22:44]
Host 1
That's fair. That's fair.
- [22:46]
Host 2
All right, Andrew.
- [22:48]
Host 1
Oh, this is. This is brutal.
- [22:51]
Host 2
So as a reminder, people, you can pick the Pacers, the Knicks, the Wolves, the Thunder, or you can take the Nuggets and the Celtics. Now, we're recording on Friday, so the Celtics may be out by tomorrow, but it's still two teams for the price of one. Think about that.
- [23:07]
Host 1
I'll take two teams for the price of one dot Give me Denver. Boston. Really?
- [23:12]
Host 2
Wow.
- [23:12]
Mike Vorkunoff
Will they kick you out of Oklahoma City? For that.
- [23:16]
Host 2
Now why would you make that your choice?
- [23:21]
Host 1
You know, I'm just going with my gut, I guess. I have no idea. There's. I have nothing to back any of this up with. Nothing.
- [23:27]
Host 2
No, I don't really have anything to back any of this up with either. Man, that's a shocker. Andrew.
- [23:35]
Host 1
Yep. Part of it is I just wanted to put you in a weird spot is really my only mission within all of this.
- [23:41]
Host 2
Yeah. Yeah. Not great. I mean my choices between OKC and Minnesota. I've been really impressed with Minnesota this playoffs though I do think whoever they play in the next round is. Is going to be a significant jump up compared to a Stephless warriors team and that Lakers team that was just a terrible matchup. Yeah, I think it's going to be a big jump. So I don't want to get too excited because I did the same thing with the Cavs when they beat the Heat. Oh my gosh. The Cavs look unstoppable. And of course they dealt with some injuries, man. All right, I'm going to go with okc.
- [24:20]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [24:23]
Host 2
So that leaves Mike. You could have either of the Eastern Conference representatives, assuming Boston gets knocked out at some point. Or you could take the Wolves.
- [24:35]
Mike Vorkunoff
I. I do find that interesting that both of you chose teams that could like Andrews.
- [24:40]
Host 2
Your.
- [24:41]
Mike Vorkunoff
Both of your teams can be out of it by the end of the weekend.
- [24:45]
Host 2
And mine. Yeah.
- [24:46]
Mike Vorkunoff
And yours to be gone as well. And you guys just like you want to live in the uncertainty. So I'm going to be a coward. I'm just going to pick a team that know is going to be there. I'm going to take Minnesota.
- [24:58]
Host 2
Yeah. You know, part of it is. And maybe Andrew feels this way too. Like if Denver, Boston or OKC wins the championship, it makes sense in the historical context of the NBA. If any of these other teams win, it's going to be an outlier compared to what we've thought like a title contender. A title winning team needs to look like in the regular season like they're going to stand out. And so maybe that's why we're attracted to these. These teams even though it is so precarious because like you said, they could be knocked out by the end of the weekend.
- [25:32]
Host 1
Yeah. I have nothing insightful to say except for I cannot wait to watch these basketball games.
- [25:40]
Host 2
I can watch game seven.
- [25:43]
Host 1
You don't want to watch game seven?
- [25:44]
Host 2
I'm so. I just gimme a couple more days. I do appreciate. I do appreciate that. I got two days.
- [25:51]
Host 1
You get two Days. Yeah, two days to live a normal life and then you get to experience game seven. Hey, go read Mike Borgonoff at the Athletic. Thanks so much for coming on, man.
- [26:03]
Mike Vorkunoff
Thank you guys. Thanks for having me.
- [26:08]
Host 1
All right, Al, it's time to bring on somebody that every time I talk to, I feel like I learned something. And I'll simultaneously feel like I don't know that much about basketball. And it excites me to bring Caitlin Cooper back on the pod. Basketball she wrote is her blog and she is just a gift to the NBA community. Caitlin, welcome back to the show.
- [26:29]
Caitlin Cooper
Thanks for having me on. That feels a little hyperbolic, but I appreciate it.
- [26:34]
Host 1
I mean, whatever. It's true, it's true. We love hearing your insights about the Pacer. So let's start by going back to mid December when everything started clicking for this Pacers team. From December 13, Indiana won 70% of its games and had a top eight offense and defense per clean the glass. What were some of the major factors that led to the second half success that we saw for the Pacers?
- [26:59]
Caitlin Cooper
I think the biggest turning point was ironically they went, they went winless in the in season tournament after being the darlings of the in season tournament a year ago. And because of that they got four days off to really recoup from practices to finally get healthy. I think that they went back to the drawing board on some things and the most important returns was Andrew Nemhard was no longer on a minutes restriction. He was the biggest motivating factor in my mind on the strides that they made at the defensive end. He sets the tone there. Aaron Neesmith, it took him a little bit longer to come back, but they got their point of attack defenders back. Tyrese Halliburton made some strides on that end of the floor. They started turning the ball over a lot less, which is important to them not only offensively but also defensively. Especially for a team that plays so quickly, it can be very hard for them to stop on a dime and get back. Plus that allows them to set their ball pressure defense, which is very important to their scheme. There they found a role that suits Pascal Siakam. Miles Turner got better. A lot of things were all coalescing at the same time, but them having that practice time and being healthy I think was the biggest motivating factors and what the turnaround ended up being in addition to this, I think it was, I think it was. Most people expected that Tyrese Halliburton, once he started looking more like Tyrese Halliburton, that The offense would come around and it did. What they did defensively was a much bigger surprise, at least to me and what my coverage was.
- [28:15]
Host 2
So I wanted to ask you about defensively because a lot of the analysis about the Pacers defensively focuses on targeting Tyrese Haliburton as like the weak link in their defense. And we saw the Cavs go after him in the series. And yet, as you pointed out in your podcast After Game 5, the Cavs were not as successful as you might have expected in those situations. So what have the Pacers done to limit the damage of this expected weak link in their defense?
- [28:40]
Caitlin Cooper
Yeah, I think games one and game five both point to the answer to that. So at the end of game one, Tyrese actually got three stops in a row just by himself on possessions against Donovan, Mitchell, against Ty Jerome, and then on a closeout to Max Stru. So Ty, in and of himself, I think very quietly made strides on the defensive end where the Pacers were a little bit more willing to switch with him than what you would have seen in the playoffs a year ago when it was a lot more show and recover. And then just his overall activity, his deflections are up. He's very good at using his length over like roughly the last two years. I think that he leads all guards and blocks on three point shots. Some of what they do defensively. There's a lot more peel switching now, so when he peels out to the perimeter, he gets to use that length against shooters more. And then also I think he's fairly self aware. He, he looks for places to scram himself out of mismatches and he can be creative with that. And he talks before the season started that he felt like when he reviewed the film that he just wasn't always in the right place at the right time, especially as an off ball defender. And I think that speaks to some of the his better force turnover rate, his better deflection rate. He's in the right places at the right time and he's been better at knowing where he can cheat and win. But also the Pacers defensive scheme at the end of game five was very good at insulating him. It was, you know, if he does get that switch, Andrew Nemworth sinking off, he's getting his hand on a ball. Miles Turner being effective as a rim protector. Behind him, Aaron Neesmith in the key sequence in the fourth quarter, I think it was Darius Garland went after Tyrese and he reached from behind, poked it from Garland and then made the layup at the other end. So just the overall fabric of the defense with the other four guys, particularly in that starting lineup, I think has supported him as well. When you're looking at just what Tyrese's numbers are when he's the screener defender, and they're not as bad as you would expect them to be when you're just looking at his individual defense in isolation.
- [30:26]
Host 1
The Pacers offense was incredibly efficient in the Cav series, posting the best offensive rating for any team in the second round. While it's understandable how the Cavs injuries affected their offense, why weren't they more successful defensively against Indiana and what. What didn't work about their approach?
- [30:45]
Caitlin Cooper
It was like polar opposite approaches from the two teams, right? Because the Cavs were trying to take out the Pacers strongest links. They were having Max Drew Soro face guarding Tyrese pretty much nonstop in that series. And at the other end of the floor, Donovan Mitchell was kind of quote, unquote, dominating the Pacers in part because the Pacers were like, we're going to take away the lyricism and movement in your offense. You were the number one pick and roll offense in the NBA. You had, you know, tons of cutting around the pick and roll. They decided to stay home on everything. And as it turns out, you know, the Cavs ended up finishing with fewer passes per 100 in that series than the 30th ranked team during the regular season. And the Pacers conversely ended up finishing with fewer closeouts per 100 possessions than the 30th ranked team in the NBA this season. So they really stayed home on those shooters. They weren't having to close out. And that allowed Donovan Mitchell in some games to get, you know, 40, 50 points. But speaking specifically of the Pacers, because the Cavs are like, you know, we're going to test your weak links. The Pacers are a deep team, especially with the strides that Andrew Nemhort has made. He was very critical in that series because the Pacers were playing four on four pick and roll possessions a lot, with Tyrese being more like, you know, negative space in art. He likes to stand out on the perimeter and give his teammates space. And, you know, four on four can be very effective for the Pacers. So I think at one point in time in the middle of that series, Nemhard and Turner were the number one pick and roll combo in the NBA. And that of course speaks to Nemhard being capable as a secondary ball handler. But also, like I just said, it can be advantageous for teams with the extra space that you have on the court when you're playing four on four. So I think that's in part why the Cavs weren't as successful as they wanted to be, because they were, you know, gearing up more towards Tyrese and Pascal. And then Aaron, Andrew and Miles Turner have been three of the most effective shooters in the playoffs. So when you forget about those guys, they're capable of making you pay as well.
- [32:29]
Host 2
You mentioned Neesmith and Nimhard. They've been huge playoff risers so far. Both are posting numbers well above their regular season averages. They've been shooting the lights out. They're both finishing their third seasons in Indiana. I was wondering, for each player, what do you think has been the biggest area of development in their games over these last three seasons for Nemhard and Niecemith?
- [32:47]
Caitlin Cooper
I think Aaron in particular, since he came back from the ankle injury, what I've noticed from him is he's simplified his reads against closeouts. He's been one of the most effective players attacking closeouts in the postseason. He's improved as a movement shooter so he can shoot on the move more. I think a lot of times when people are looking at how effective Neesmith and Nemhard have been in particular as shooters in the playoffs, Nemhard's a little bit harder to explain because he's just like upped his volume on three pull up threes and suddenly he's just drilling over 50% of them. But it's almost like a trickle down effect because teams are geared up more on Tyrese and face guarding him. That means Nemhard's running more pick and roll. And because Nemhard's running so much more pick and roll, that means that Aaron Neesmith teams are hiding their smaller guards on Aaron more because they don't want them navigating so many picks against Andrew. So that's been very advantageous for Aaron in these playoffs where he's now more often being guarded by Garland Mitchell, Gary Trent Jr. AJ Green, almost all of which he has a size advantage on. So I think that people are looking at his three point percentage and thinking, oh, that's just solely an effect of Tyrese. And certainly Tyrese sets the table, has a lot of gravity, creates open shots for his teammates. But Aaron's actually making a higher percentage while being guarded more in the playoffs because he's able to still shoot over the top of those contests. His average, I think last year I looked at his average, matchups were more like Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Chris Middleton. Last year, all guys With a size advantage. So he was shooting like 27% from three in the playoffs last year. Now he's up over 40. So I think and he's just capable of making tougher shots. Like I mentioned, he's been more effective as a movement shooter than what you would have seen in the past. He does more of that now that Buddy Heald isn't on the roster. So I think that's two of them. And then just for Nem Hard, I think he's been the best defender on the Pacers for two seasons now, but he's taken that to an extra even. You know, he didn't, he didn't average enough minutes and games to be qualified for all defense. But I think he's an all defense caliber defender.
- [34:44]
Host 1
Recording on Friday morning prior to game six of Celtics Knicks. If it ends up being the Knicks, it would be a rematch of last year's second round series which went seven games. The Knicks have made significant roster changes since that series. I'm interested in your thoughts on the Knicks defense, which has been pretty improved since the start of the playoffs. How, how real do you think that improvement is and how might the Pacers try to break that down?
- [35:08]
Caitlin Cooper
Yeah, if you would have asked me during this question during the regular season, I would have been like, the Knicks aren't really capable of playing the type of defense that limits the Pacers the most and the Pacers aren't really capable of playing the type of defense that limits the Knicks the most. And now both have kind of adjusted that in the postseason. So the Knicks have done a lot of switching against Boston and that worked for them through the first four games and game five. They did a lot of switching. And this is not me trying to denigrate Jason Tatum at all, but because they didn't have Jason Tatum, the Celtics had to rely on a lot more ball movement in that game. And the Knicks switching was harder because of that. There was a lot more Ghost screening, a lot more Spain actions, and this is a team that didn't switch all year. They're not really used to having to navigate all that. So once the Celtics were moving the ball more, the switching became a lot less effective for them. So I think using that game as a guide and we'll see how Game 6 goes, I think that bodes somewhat in the Pacers favor because they're the number one passing team in the NBA. They're going to move the ball. They don't isolate a lot. So if they're going to be switching, it's going to look a little different than what the Celtics were doing in the first four games with some of their offense becoming a little bit catch and hold with Tatum on some of those isolations where it became easier for OG Onenobi and Mikel Bridges to be loading up on some of those actions. It was harder for them to do that in game five when the ball was moving for Boston and that's how the Pacers prefer to play. So I, I think defensively it could be a comfortable matchup for both teams. I'll put it that way.
- [36:32]
Host 2
Well, Caitlin, thank you for answering all of our questions about the Pacers. But it is now time to play Andrew versus the Beat, our weekly trivia show where Andrew goes head to head against an NBA beat writer. This week. The challenger is Kaitlyn Cooper from Basketball. She wrote. Now, Caitlin, you've played this before. I came up with eight questions all about the Pacers. Some are easy, some are hard. You'll give me a number between 1 and 8. It'll correspond to a question. If you get it right, you'll get at least two points. And if you get it wrong, Andrew will have a chance to steal for one. And we'll go back and forth until all the questions have been asked and answered. So to start us off, I just need a number between one and eight.
- [37:12]
Caitlin Cooper
Let's go with number two, Andrew Nemhard's number.
- [37:16]
Host 2
Question number two. This is the Pacers second consecutive conference finals appearance. There are only two Eastern conference teams who have never made consecutive conference finals. Can you name both? And you do get one point per correct answer.
- [37:36]
Caitlin Cooper
Ever made consecutive? Well, we know it's not Boston, not Cleveland, not the Pacers. I doubt it's Detroit. It's got to be a team that just hasn't had a lot of success. I mean, one of them has to be the Hornets, right?
- [37:54]
Host 2
That is correct for one point.
- [37:58]
Caitlin Cooper
Not Miami, Not Orlando. Probably not Brooklyn. Probably not the Knicks either. Is that Washington?
- [38:13]
Host 2
Washington has done it once upon a time back in the 70s. Andrew, you have any guesses who the other team is?
- [38:24]
Host 1
About Toronto.
- [38:26]
Host 2
It's Toronto, which is a little surprising. I thought those DeRozan teams at some point had.
- [38:32]
Host 1
I had a little bit of doubt about them but like everybody else that we ran through, like makes sense.
- [38:36]
Host 2
Okay, question number one. During round one, Tyrese Halberton had double digit assists in four consecutive playoff games. There are only 10 players in NBA history who have accomplished that feat, including two active players. Who are the two active players that have had 10 plus assists in four consecutive playoff games. You get one point per correct answer.
- [39:00]
Host 1
Nikola Jokic.
- [39:02]
Host 2
No, Andrew. Bad. Okay, Caitlin, you get a chance to steal.
- [39:08]
Host 1
That's the first time you've ever said bad to me after answering bad.
- [39:11]
Host 2
Andrew, I'm gonna go. Yes, a very good guess. Very good guess is one of the answers. Can you get the other name?
- [39:20]
Caitlin Cooper
I'm gonna go with LeBron.
- [39:22]
Host 2
LeBron? No, it is a guy who's currently playing. In fact, he plays on Jokic's team. Andrew. It is, of course, Russell Westbrook.
- [39:29]
Host 1
Russell Westbrook. Son of a gun. Yeah, that was bad. I deserved the bad.
- [39:34]
Caitlin Cooper
I don't know. I would have gotten that poll.
- [39:37]
Host 2
It's kind of surprising that Jokic hasn't done it. Okay, Caitlin, you're up by one, and you control the board.
- [39:43]
Caitlin Cooper
Go with number seven.
- [39:46]
Host 2
Question number seven. Oh, yeah, this one's hard. Pascal Siakam leads the Pacers in career playoff games with 80 games played. He leads the team. Which NBA player has Siakam played the most playoff games against with 12 games played?
- [40:07]
Caitlin Cooper
Well, my first inclination was Giannis, because I know that the Raptors played the Bucks in the playoffs and the patients have played him twice, but Giannis didn't play last year. It's an active player that he's played the most playoff games against.
- [40:22]
Host 2
Correct.
- [40:27]
Caitlin Cooper
And I think the Raptors played Boston. They played Milwaukee in that run. Who else did they play in the run to it? The other inclination is LeBron, because it feels like every Eastern Conference player probably plays the most playoff games against LeBron. Let's go with LeBron. I feel like that's the safe answer here.
- [40:46]
Host 2
It is a safe answer, but would you believe he's only played LeBron in the playoffs? Six times? Only playing them six times.
- [40:52]
Caitlin Cooper
So then it might have been, I don't know.
- [40:54]
Host 2
If you, like, missed some games, Andrew, you have any guesses?
- [41:00]
Host 1
I'll say Giannis.
- [41:02]
Host 2
So, Kaylin, you're on the right track because it is a buck, but it's not Giannis because he did miss so many games. It is Brooke Lopez.
- [41:10]
Caitlin Cooper
I should have thought of that. I didn't think about it until you phrased it like that. Like, I don't know why I didn't think of that. Because he played. Okay, Andrew, against the Pacers, you have.
- [41:19]
Host 2
Control of the board.
- [41:20]
Host 1
I'll go three.
- [41:22]
Host 2
Question number three. When this player has been on the court for Indiana in the playoffs, the Pacers have held teams to 24.2 fewer points per 100 possessions compared to when he is off the court. Among players who have played 300 minutes in this year's playoffs. That is the biggest. On, off swing defensively. Who is the player?
- [41:43]
Caitlin Cooper
No.
- [41:43]
Host 1
Wow. Oh, no, no. Andrew's on.
- [41:47]
Host 2
Then you better get it right.
- [41:49]
Host 1
I better get it right. Is it Miles Turner?
- [41:57]
Host 2
No, Andrew bad. Kaylin. Kaitlyn, do you have a guess?
- [42:06]
Caitlin Cooper
I think it's Pascal.
- [42:09]
Host 2
Is Pascal Siak. 24.2. How about that? Okay.
- [42:17]
Caitlin Cooper
And Swing during the regular season too. Let's go number four.
- [42:20]
Host 2
Oh, really? Yeah. Question number four. Miles Turner already has 25 blocks this postseason, which leads all players in the league. Unless Chet had more than three last night. I didn't actually look it up after that.
- [42:31]
Host 1
He did not.
- [42:32]
Host 2
Okay. He did not. Great. There are only three Pacers who have ever had a postseason with 25 plus blocks. Can you name all three? So this is in a single playoff run. They get 25 plus blocks. Three pacers in the past have done it. Other than Miles. You get one point per correct answer.
- [42:50]
Caitlin Cooper
Jermaine o' Neal.
- [42:52]
Host 2
That is one correct.
- [42:56]
Caitlin Cooper
Roy Hibbert.
- [42:58]
Host 2
Roy Hibbert. That is correct. Can you get the final name in all three points? It is not Rick Smith. Andrew, you can steal one point.
- [43:10]
Host 1
Oh, boy.
- [43:12]
Host 2
25 plus blocks.
- [43:14]
Host 1
25 plus blocks.
- [43:16]
Host 2
Not miles Turner. We said Roy Hibbert. We said Jermaine o' Neal.
- [43:23]
Host 1
Yeah, those are names that were obvious to me. Gosh, I don't know. This feels wrong. Also Del Davis.
- [43:34]
Host 2
Andrew. That is correct.
- [43:36]
Host 1
Wow.
- [43:36]
Host 2
For one point. There you go, Andrew. Does the comeback start now? You're down 5:2, Andrew, but you have control of the board.
- [43:44]
Host 1
Wow. I'm in shock that that was correct. Number five.
- [43:48]
Host 2
Question. Number five. Aaron Neesmith has already committed 40 fouls through 10 playoff games. The last time the Pacers made consecutive conference finals in the 98 and 99 playoffs. Who led the Pacers in personal fouls committed in both playoff runs? Easy question. There you go.
- [44:07]
Host 1
Wait, what? What?
- [44:10]
Host 2
Okay, so forget the intro. Okay. It's about Aaron Neesmith. Not important.
- [44:13]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [44:14]
Host 2
When the Pacers made consecutive conference finals in 98. 99, who was the Pacer that led them in personal fouls committed in both playoff runs?
- [44:24]
Host 1
Wow.
- [44:25]
Host 2
Who's just out there hacking away?
- [44:27]
Host 1
Feels like it would be one of the last two guys that we mentioned. Dale Davis or Rick Smiths.
- [44:33]
Host 2
Which one are you going to say? Andrew.
- [44:38]
Host 1
I'll say Rick Smiths.
- [44:41]
Host 2
Andrew. That is correct. It is now five to four with two questions remaining here.
- [44:48]
Caitlin Cooper
I thought we were talking about the consecutive conference finals against the Heat. I was gonna be like, I don't know. Is it Roy or Lance Stevenson? Let's go number six.
- [44:58]
Host 2
Oh, they did, didn't they? So it wasn't the last time. It was two times ago. They've made consecutive country finals a lot. You said six.
- [45:08]
Caitlin Cooper
Good things come in pairs.
- [45:11]
Host 2
This is a. This is a. I love this question that I wrote. What is Jame Johnson's career high in the playoffs? Now, before you answer, you get to choose who answers first. So you can make Andrew guess, and then you can go higher or lower, or you can guess and then Andrew goes higher. Lower. If either of you got it exactly correct, you would get a bonus point. So we're talking about James Johnson, his career high in points in the playoffs over his. His entire career.
- [45:36]
Caitlin Cooper
I'm gonna let Andrew guess it.
- [45:39]
Host 2
All right, Andrew, where would you like to set the bar? Think back to all those James Johnson playoff moments.
- [45:45]
Host 1
21.
- [45:47]
Host 2
And, Caitlin, would you like to go higher or lower than 21?
- [45:51]
Caitlin Cooper
Kind of think what. Which team he would have been playing for, where he would have a career high. Was this going to be like the Heat? I feel like he's going to be more apt to be, like, racking up handoff assists, and he's going to be racking up points, but.
- [46:05]
Host 1
Right.
- [46:05]
Caitlin Cooper
I'll go. I'll go lower. I feel like it's going to be less than 21, but probably wrong.
- [46:13]
Host 2
Andrew, you were. You were within three points.
- [46:16]
Host 1
Okay.
- [46:17]
Host 2
Of the correct answer. The correct answer was 18, which means Caitlyn gets the points.
- [46:27]
Caitlin Cooper
Was he playing. Which team was it?
- [46:29]
Host 2
Well, I was gonna. I was gonna look that up. Yeah. Who were his other teams? I mean, he played on the.
- [46:37]
Caitlin Cooper
The Raptors. He played for the. Yeah. Who else? In the East. All that's coming to mind is the Raptors in the Heat.
- [46:46]
Host 1
Raptors. He. He played for. For Dallas for a hot minute. I think he started in Chicago. Right.
- [46:57]
Host 2
I'm gonna spend a lot of time looking this up, so just sit back. Better be good. Oh, my gosh. He has. So. He's played so many seasons.
- [47:06]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [47:06]
Caitlin Cooper
Yeah.
- [47:07]
Host 2
Here we go. All right, drum roll. It was the Miami Heat. Not that exciting. However, his second highest was with the Memphis Grizzlies. So that's kind of interesting.
- [47:19]
Caitlin Cooper
I didn't even remember he played for the Memphis Grizzlies.
- [47:22]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [47:23]
Host 2
It was in a game against okc. Okay, Andrew, you can't win the week. You've already lost. Okay. Caitlin's already beat you, but you can make it really close so that it looks like it was right.
- [47:34]
Host 1
Cue the smoke.
- [47:36]
Host 2
You can make it closer so that people who are looking back at the score will be like, wow, that was a really close one. Okay, so here we go. There are nine Indiana Pacers who have had a playoff run where they've hit at least 25. Three pointers, and we're going to name them all. So how this works, Andrea will give me a name, then Caitlin will give me a name, and we'll go back and forth until one of you stumbles. So this is a single playoff run, hitting at least 25. Three pointers. And it has to.
- [48:02]
Host 1
Reggie Miller.
- [48:03]
Host 2
Reggie Miller. Great guess, Andrew. That is correct. All right, Caitlin.
- [48:07]
Caitlin Cooper
Paul. George.
- [48:09]
Host 2
Paul George did it multiple times. Andrew.
- [48:19]
Host 1
Goodness. I had a guess, but I. I think that it's definitely wrong. Danny Granger.
- [48:28]
Host 2
Yeah, Danny Granger did it.
- [48:30]
Host 1
Sure. Okay.
- [48:31]
Host 2
Okay, back to Caitlin.
- [48:34]
Caitlin Cooper
Like, we need people who would have been making longer playoff runs. So did George Hill do it?
- [48:41]
Host 2
George Hill did do it. All right, you guys have gotten four of the nine names. Five names remaining. Andrew, who would you like to guess next?
- [48:54]
Caitlin Cooper
Did.
- [48:56]
Host 1
C.J. miles do it?
- [48:59]
Host 2
D.J. miles? No. Andrew. I'm sorry. I don't even know if he was close. Caitlyn, any other. Any other names? It's impressive you remembered him, though.
- [49:12]
Caitlin Cooper
What? Chris. Is Chris Mullins on the list?
- [49:16]
Host 2
No. I'm surprised. There's four players on the current Pacers team that are on this list. Halliburton, Nemhardt, niece Smith, and Miles Turner have all done Miles Turner.
- [49:26]
Host 1
So I was gonna guess Miles Turner, but, man, I was, like, thinking about the past.
- [49:30]
Caitlin Cooper
I don't know. Stuck in the past.
- [49:34]
Host 2
Yeah, the oldest name. Actually, I don't know if this is the oldest name, but Jalen Rose also did it. That was, like, the one. Kind of surprising based on the. Based on the era.
- [49:42]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [49:44]
Host 2
Okay. But ending there. Caitlin, you have won seven to four. Congratulations for winning versus the beat.
- [49:51]
Host 1
Wow. Everybody go subs. Everybody go subscribe to Basketball She Wrote. Anything else that you'd like to share, Caitlin, before we go?
- [50:01]
Caitlin Cooper
Yeah, I'm always thankful for people to subscribe at Basketball She Wrote. There's free membership as well as paid membership over there. I'm happy to have you at either option. And then Samson folk, who I'm doing post game pods with after every playoff game, is also writing gamers for me over there. He's my favorite basketball writer slash talker in the Internet sphere. And I. I'm really happy that after, as I told you guys ahead of time, after being sick for a lot of the portion of this season that I get to podcast again. So thankful for the invitation here and thankful to anybody that wants to check us out Doing more so vodcasts on YouTube after these games.
- [50:33]
Host 1
Yeah well thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the Saturday Slam Jam. Be sure to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. We will read it on the show. Hope you guys enjoy your weekend and the basketball and we'll talk to you guys again next week.
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Host 2
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