ReDrafting the 2021 NBA Draft | Morning Shoot Around

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic NBA Daily

Episode: ReDrafting the 2021 NBA Draft | Morning Shoot Around
Date: November 27, 2025
Hosts: Andrew Schlecht, Dave DuFour, Esper (Esfandiar) Baraheni

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Main Theme

A look back at the 2021 NBA Draft, re-drafting the top 15 picks after four full seasons.
The hosts examine how the class, once considered underwhelming, has produced surprising depth, multiple All-Stars, and several outstanding rotation players. Their snake-style redraft sparks nuanced debates about ceiling, fit, and context, with plenty of candid hot takes and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolving Reputation of the 2021 NBA Draft Class

• Initial Doubts, Surprising Depth:
  The 2021 class was once panned as “only Mobley and Wagner,” but has blossomed: “There are just so many guys...only 5 or 6 big time misses in the first round. Everyone else is either still kicking, a rotation player, or a starter—or like, an All-Star/All-NBA guy, which is rare for a draft.” (Esper, 05:14)
• “Four years later...by the end of year four, the top seven [or eight] guys are at all-star level from this class.” (Dave, 06:07)

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Redraft: Strategy & Context

Hosts use a snake draft, making picks based on fit, talent, and developmental trajectory—not just original order or stats.

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Picks 1–3: Top Tier Stars

• #1 Cade Cunningham (Dave, 07:58)
  • “This dude is legit. He’s an MVP candidate right now...He can score everywhere. The three is looking so much better this year. If anyone in this class is going to win MVP, it’s Cade Cunningham.”
• #2 Scottie Barnes (Esper, 09:13)
  • “I lean Scottie [over Mobley]...I like Scottie’s passing more, his decision making, his ball-handling...He’s a wing who can kind of create more than Evan can. They're both Swiss-army-knife defenders, but Scottie does a little more.”
• #3 Evan Mobley (Andrew, 12:57)
  • “Still really good player, still developing, still really young. Free throws are a concern, and the shooting has to come along for him to reach that next level...He can anchor your defense, but he probably needs to be your third most important guy at best in your offense.” (Andrew/Dave, 16:48)

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Picks 4–6: Offensive Hubs & Versatile Wings

• #4 Alperen Şengün (Andrew, 17:30)
  • “I’ve been slow on Şengün, but he’s closer to surpassing the ‘Vucevic type’ than to becoming it. Better defensively this year, and the team is built around all his strengths.”
  • Dave: “Such a great rebounder...still provides positive value.”
  • Esper: “Context is huge. All the top guys needed the right context to become what they are.”
• #5 Franz Wagner (Esper, 21:24)
  • “Elite driver...the biggest swing is shooting—if he can become even a decent pull-up and catch-and-shoot guy, he’s All-NBA potential. Magic’s offensive context still isn’t tailored to him, but the tools are all there.”
• #6 Jalen Johnson (Dave, 23:28)
  • “Right now he’s averaging 21.5/9.5/7, shooting 38% from three...an elite playmaker. Size and athleticism pop, and he’s a multi-level scoring threat.”
  • On fit: “Next to Paolo, Johnson’s shooting might work even better than Franz Wagner.”

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Rising Star Segment: Surprise Breakouts

• #7 Austin Reaves (Dave, 26:05; undrafted in real life)
  • “28 points a game, 6 rebounds, 7 assists—nobody saw him becoming this good. He’s maybe the best ‘number three’ in the league.”
  • Andrew: “He’s earned a pretty fat paycheck...will be interesting to see what happens this summer.”
• #8 Josh Giddey (Esper, 32:33)
  • “20/10/10, essentially a triple-double, now shooting 38% from three—offensive system is key for him. Needs plus-defenders around him, but the Bulls have finally unlocked his production.”
  • Andrew: “Giddey needed the context that OKC initially built before Jalen Williams’ star turn changed everything.”

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Perfect Fits, Hidden Gems, and Defensive Aces

• #9 Trey Murphy (Andrew, 37:14)
  • “He’s trapped in New Orleans. If he were on the Knicks, Nuggets, Wolves, or Warriors, he’d be seen completely differently—elite shooter, incredible dunker. Worst team for his skills.”
• #10 Jalen Suggs (Andrew, 40:46)
  • “Hard-nosed, Marcus Smart-type. Might never be a primary creator, but just helps you win.”
• #11 Herb Jones (Esper, 42:10)
  • “One of the best defenders in the NBA—if he’s a 36–37% three-point shooter plus all-world defense, that’s elite 3-and-D. Wrong context in New Orleans makes him overlooked.”
  • Dave: “Connective offensive pieces require things to connect. There’s nothing for him in New Orleans.”

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Late Lottery: Talented Scorers, Role Players, and “Lottery Hopes”

• #12 Quentin Grimes (Dave, 43:52)
  • “About a 20 PPG scorer—should be a starting guard, but has been buried. Much better player than people realize.”
• #13 Jalen Green (Dave, 44:05)
  • “If he went here [#13] instead of #2, we’d feel very differently. Not the #1 option, but defended well in Houston last year. Needs to accept a 6th man role to maximize value.”
• #14 Davion Mitchell (Esper, 51:46)
  • “Turned his career around with improved three-point shooting and elite defense at his position. Great decision maker, and—‘Off Night’ top five nickname.” (Dave)
• #15 Aaron Wiggins (Andrew, 54:42)
  • “Crazy biased, but he’s a hidden three-level scorer, can hit threes, get to the rim, and is a microwave off the bench. Not a great defender, but always in the right spots, super funny, and a great sixth man.”

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Honorable Mentions & Role Players

• Names discussed or nearly picked:
  • Jonathan Kuminga: “Hasn’t figured out how to play with stars after years in the league—huge red flag.”
  • Santi Aldama, IO Dosunmu, Moses Moody, Corey Kispert, Cam Thomas, Trey Mann, Mamu, Deuce McBride …and a shoutout to the strong undrafted class (Austin Reaves, Jose Alvarado, Sam Hauser, Trendon Watford, Keaton Wallace).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the transformation of the draft class:
  • “This class is near and dear to my heart...We did a lottery party...people showed out...the thought was the Thunder could get the first and the fifth pick, [but] they ended up with six.” (Andrew, 06:14)
• On Scottie Barnes:
  • “Shoutout to Scotty and his parents for just allowing him to go by Scotty, because I don’t know that his career goes like this if his name is Scott Barnes.” (Andrew, 12:29)
• On team building and context:
  • “These guys are obviously All-Star, All-NBA level, but how important context is for these guys is just a different animal. Some thrive despite context; these needed the right thing around them.” (Esper, 20:07)
• Humor and candor:
  • Repeated jokes about team names (“He’s a Thunder,” “He’s a Heater”),
  • Lively food debate at episode’s end, e.g., mashed potatoes’ status as Thanksgiving MVP, stuffing waffles, and mac & cheese opinions.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:09 – Redraft order and format explained
• 07:58 – Cade Cunningham picked #1, discussion of his MVP arc
• 09:13 – Scottie Barnes vs. Mobley deep dive
• 12:57 – Evan Mobley’s offensive development and limitations
• 17:30 – Alperen Şengün and the archetype/fit conversation
• 21:24 – Franz Wagner’s offensive ceiling and Magic’s challenges
• 23:28 – Jalen Johnson’s breakout, fit next to Paolo
• 26:05 – Austin Reaves, the undrafted star
• 32:33 – Josh Giddey’s rise in a new context
• 37:14 – Trey Murphy’s hidden star power
• 40:46 – Jalen Suggs: winning impact
• 42:10 – Herb Jones: elite defending and context limitations
• 43:52 – Quentin Grimes, Jalen Green: scoring guards’ value
• 51:46 – Davion Mitchell and the value of ‘Off Night’
• 54:42 – Aaron Wiggins: “microwave” bench star, fun personality
• 55:14 – Praise for the deep undrafted class
• 56:20–59:55 – Closing Thanksgiving/food banter

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, smart, and irreverent.
• Plenty of friendly debate, pop culture riffs, and “draft nerd” in-jokes.
• Direct language, willingness to call out teams’ missteps ("Pelicans stink," "Dallas trade was a fireable offense").
• Hosts candidly admit their own biases or initial misreads (e.g., “I was slow on Şengün; that’s a me problem”).

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The 2021 NBA draft’s reputation has undergone a huge reversal; it’s now full of impact players and upside surprises.
• Redrafting is more than stats—it’s about context, development, and fit.
• Building around unique talents requires vision, patience, and the right environment.
• Some elite players remain hidden by poor team situations.
• Even late-lottery guys or undrafted players can become stars—or, at worst, key rotation pieces.
• And, if you needed the hosts’ Thanksgiving food rankings, those come standard.

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Additional Memorable Quotes

• On undrafted Reaves:
  “He was one of the first I penciled in…28 points, six boards, seven assists; maybe the best ‘number three’ in the league.” (Dave, 26:13)
• On Giddey’s newfound success:
  “Josh needs to be the guy...The Bulls picked the perfect offensive context around him.” (Esper, 33:50)
• On Trey Murphy:
  “He’s got the Pelicans stink on him.” (Andrew, 38:00)
• On role players:
  “You could be a Cam Thomas believer, maybe you’re a Trey Mann guy…” (Andrew, 54:44)

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Draft Board (Hosts’ Top 15, Redrafted)

1. Cade Cunningham
2. Scottie Barnes
3. Evan Mobley
4. Alperen Şengün
5. Franz Wagner
6. Jalen Johnson
7. Austin Reaves (undrafted in 2021)
8. Josh Giddey
9. Trey Murphy
10. Jalen Suggs
11. Herb Jones
12. Quentin Grimes
13. Jalen Green
14. Davion Mitchell
15. Aaron Wiggins

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A fun, spirited, and insightful episode—packed with sharp analysis, context-driven takes, and plenty of NBA draft lore for hoop heads and casuals alike.

Transcript

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[Dave Dufour]

Thanks.

[Capital One Advertiser]

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[Andrew Schleich]

Foreign. Game day is coming to prime with an epic day of live sports. Black Friday football is back with the Chicago Bears taking on the Philadelphia Eagles at 3pm Eastern, followed by an Emirates NBA cup doubleheader. Bucs, Knicks at 7pm and Mavs Lakers at 10pm and the whole day starts with the Capital One skins game as four elite PGA golfers meet with $4 million on the line. Black Friday game day, the Capital One skins game at 9am Bears Eagles NFL action at 3pm and the final night of the Emirates NBA cup group play with Bucs Knicks at 7 and Mavs Lakers at 10. Only on Prime. Welcome to the morning shoot around here on the Athlet NBA Daily. I'm your host, Andrew Schleich with me, Dave Dufour.

[Dave Dufour]

And this is where we would have like some kind of fill in.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, you gotta, you gotta do that.

[Dave Dufour]

You know, we need a live studio audience, actually.

[Andrew Schleich]

A live studio audience?

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, you know, like Mama's Family, they used to record in front of a live studio audience.

[Andrew Schleich]

You know, so you get, okay, some.

[Esper Henny]

Like Family Feud music in the background.

[Dave Dufour]

Don't ask why. Mama's Family.

[Andrew Schleich]

I was about to say all the shows to pick. You chose Mama's Family?

[Dave Dufour]

Dude, I was having a conversation with someone the other day about Vicki Lawrence and just how funny she was. You know, like we were talking about.

[Andrew Schleich]

Female comedians that were talking about. I mean, you could be saying the most. I mean, this could all be fake. I've never heard of anything you're talking about.

[Dave Dufour]

Are you being serious?

[Andrew Schleich]

Yes. Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

You might. Might as well be speaking.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, man.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, see? Oh, see, I finally just showed how old I am is what it Is.

[Andrew Schleich]

You can say like full house, but full house.

[Dave Dufour]

I don't. Did they have a live audience?

[Andrew Schleich]

They at least had a. Least had a laugh track, you know?

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, I, you know what Family Matters was. Was.

[Esper Henny]

I was gonna say family matters.

[Andrew Schleich]

Family matters. Yeah, I know that.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, yeah, There you go.

[Andrew Schleich]

Seen it, watched it, Urkel.

[Dave Dufour]

Okay.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay. Esper Henny is also here with us.

[Esper Henny]

Hello, everybody. What up, what up?

[Andrew Schleich]

And.

[Dave Dufour]

And a diatribe about the lack.

[Andrew Schleich]

Exactly. That's how it feels, right?

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Today we are going to do a 2021 redraft and kind of use it as a vehicle to talk about how this 2021 class is impacting the NBA at large so far this season. And it is to a large degree. So I am, I'm excited to talk about this class. It's one that a couple years ago looked bad. Like did not look good. It was like, oh, Evan Mobley should have gone number one obviously. And he's like really the only good player from this class. He and Franz Wagner the only like two good players in this class. It's different story today. So yeah. Thought it could be kind of fun to go through this. I did a randomizer to get the draft order. It will be Dave, then S and then me.

[Dave Dufour]

Okay.

[Andrew Schleich]

Snake draft style.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, people are going to hate me regardless of what I do with the second pick.

[Andrew Schleich]

We'll get five. Each of us get five picks and then you can let us know why you hate it. Okay. Which is what you do because you're on the Internet. All right.

[Esper Henny]

It's true.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay. All right, I'm going to pull up our list here so you guys can look at it as we go here on YouTube. So if you're not watching on YouTube, we would love for you to join us live. Usually around 1 o' clock Eastern is when we are starting this. I know it's called the morning shoot around, but we don't, we don't care about time. Time is.

[Dave Dufour]

Well, it's morning for me.

[Andrew Schleich]

It's morning for Dave. You know what it's all about, Dave?

[Esper Henny]

Well, because I sleep at 3:30 now. It's also morning.

[Dave Dufour]

That's fair. Wow. Late night last night. Fun show though.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, it was a fun show. Also just on the 2021 class.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yep.

[Esper Henny]

The depth of this class is insane. Like if you look at it even outside because I know we're probably only gonna go like a few picks or whatever.

[Andrew Schleich]

We're gonna do 15, 15 picks.

[Esper Henny]

Okay, cool. Honestly, we could probably go even deeper because there's Just there are so many guys, guys who are like rotation players, obviously. Guys who are like all stars and all NBA guys and then guys who are still kicking around the league. Like there's. I was looking at it earlier. There's only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, like big time misses in the first round of this draft. Otherwise everybody else is either still kicking in the league, a rotation player or starter and then. Or like an all star slash all NBA guy, which is. That's rare for a draft, you know.

[Dave Dufour]

And four years later, by the way, like, this is not. We're not talking like six even where, where some of these guys were late bloomers. Everyone by, by the end of year four is going to be, I don't know, an all star level. Like all these guys like the top seven.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Or something from this class. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

There's. There's a lot of probably top eight minus one.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Like the way I would put it. Yeah. This, this is a class that's near and dear to my heart because it was like the Thunder's first class of like players that they brought in after like their first year of tanking. And we did, we did a lottery party and it was like the first like post covet event that we did for down to dunk. And like people showed out like crazy. The, the thought was like the Thunder could get the first pick and the fifth pick because they had this Rockets pick that was top three protected.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

And they ended up with six.

[Esper Henny]

Damn. It really feels like every year there's something like that with the Thunder.

[Dave Dufour]

That, that Sam Presti, he's. He's doing stuff over there. Yeah, man. We've made fun of Law for this last night. He gets tagged in social media at the end of every loss by Thunder fans.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Who have spun thank the Tankathon every night.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

6.8 chance, man. 6.8.

[Andrew Schleich]

I've tagged him before. I've done that. But yeah, I remember I have a video of it and I sent it to Keith Parrish because Keith is like the most like anti tank person I know and he's like, tanking is so dumb. This will never work. The Thunder. This is going to be a disaster for the Thunder. And I took this video of like Thunder fans, like slowly, like just the air being let out of this balloon of like excitement because the Thunder were not. Did not get one of the top picks. But anyways, Dave, pick number one of the 2021 NBA redraft here on the morning shoot. Around. Who you got?

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, man. God. Imagine if, if the Thunder could have drafted Cade Cunningham like I am right now. Wow. You know, I don't want to even say he's a late bloomer. I'll say I was late. Right. I think injuries really delayed what we're seeing over the course of the last two seasons, like now, including this one. This dude is legit. I mean, he's an MVP candidate right now. Obviously. They're having a great start to the season. They're 15, 2. You know, what, is he at third? Is he at 30 a game? 27. 6 and, and 10 assist? I don't know. I mean, we, we've talked about Cade all season long. He can score everywhere. The, the three is. Is looking so much better this year. He looks like out of this class. He looks like the guy who is the mvp. Like, if he's. If one of the guys in this class is going to win mvp, it's Kate Cunningham. Yep.

[Andrew Schleich]

I agree.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, I think that's right. I, I still, still holding out hope that Evan Mobley can continue to develop his offensive game.

[Dave Dufour]

That's the whole, that's the thing holding him back. But he's clearly number 2s to me. But I don't think where you go.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, yeah, I, I think, I think, look, this is like the perfect time for me to do my, my Scotty Barnes pick. And I, I think it's a legitimate conversation because if you look at Scotty and Evan, two guys who are going to get compared to each other for the rest of their careers just because of how the Rookie of the year race went out, also because they've both had like, on again, off again seasons. Last year was a bad year for Scotty. Evan Mobley won defensive player of the year. This year has been a struggle. Some start for Mobley, obviously a really good start for Scotty this year. And I think part of it is they're both trying to figure out, or they maybe have figured out that they're not like the number one scoring option on a championship team. I don't think either of those guys are going to be that, but they're both like these Swiss army knife guys who can handle the Rock, who can make plays, who are also obviously wildly talented defenders. I personally, and I guess this is just part of, like me covering the Raptors versus not covering the Cavs. I personally think the variety of ways Scotty can impact the game on both ends and is a little bit better than what Evan Mobley can do at a baseline. If the Mobley stuff pans out, offensively and he really does become what people thought of as, like, the Kevin Garnett of today, which I don't necessarily see happening. Then, yes, it's obviously Evan Mobley. But at this point, I. I do think there's pretty valid reasons for taking Scotty over Evan, just because I think both of them have offensive questions. I think both of them need to be set up offensively. They're both very talented defenders. But I. I like Scotty's passing more. I like his decision making more. I like his ball handling more. He's a wing who can kind of create a little bit more than Evan can. So. Eileen. Scotty. Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

And Scotty is giant. Like, you say he's a wing. Like, sometimes when you think of a wing, like, oh, like a six. Six wing. This dude is massive. He's the size of, like, some centers.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. He's almost as big as Dwight Howard.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Like.

[Andrew Schleich]

No, not even. Yeah, not even. Kidding.

[Dave Dufour]

Do not realize that, like, Dwight Howard's like, six, nine. On a great. On a good day.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

And just jacked. And Scotty Barnes is getting there.

[Esper Henny]

There's this video of. Of Scotty and the Raptors pre draft workout thing, and they're measuring his hands, and it was the biggest hands that they had ever measured, including Kawhi.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

I was like, he just has these ginormous mitts of. Of hands that.

[Dave Dufour]

You know, my friend Mike Weisenberg, he. He does draft stuff. And he actually was talking to me about Scotty Barnes when he was in high school because he wanted him to go to Oregon. And he's like, we. We're gonna get Scotty Barnes. Like, Like, I was hearing about him when I think Scotty was like, 16. Wow. Yeah. So. But he's. He's also Canadian, so he's pumped that the rest.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, hell yeah. Shout out to Mike.

[Dave Dufour]

But I heard about the. The hand measurements from Mike.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, man.

[Dave Dufour]

You get a text about a basketball player's hands. You know what I mean? Like, you know, something crazy is happening.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Also, shout out to Scotty and his parents for just allowing him to go by Scotty, because I don't know that his career goes like this if his name is Scott Barnes.

[Esper Henny]

True. It's true. That is true.

[Dave Dufour]

Scott Barnes sounds like there's actually an mba.

[Esper Henny]

There's a. There's a restaurant here in Toronto called Scotch Bonnet. It's like, perfect sponsorship opportunity there.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

For real.

[Andrew Schleich]

I. I will take at. At 3. I will take Evan Mobley, naturally.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

The good value pick, by the way.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

It Makes I'm feeling really good about.

[Esper Henny]

The defensive player of the year. Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Right.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Still really good player, still developing, still really young. His free throw percentage is like super duper concerning so far this year. I don't. The shooting is, is something that like has to kind of come along for him to reach that next level.

[Dave Dufour]

Mm.

[Andrew Schleich]

And like the regression with the free throw so far is very strange. He's like shooting more per game than he ever has, but he's. He's almost like 13% less than he was last year.

[Dave Dufour]

Wow.

[Andrew Schleich]

It's like what. Like that's.

[Esper Henny]

Did you. So I, I send you some of these like warm up videos.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Before the game. And one of them had Mobley practicing free throws before it.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

His form is all kinds of messed up.

[Andrew Schleich]

There's something like very weird that's happened with him.

[Esper Henny]

There's. There's a hitch. The load up takes forever and I just. Yeah, I think. I, I don't know, man. Some of the regression this year, they've obviously leaned on him. They want him to be more of an offensive factor for them. Right. To like, take them over the top. And I think we all agree the Cavs, they got to do that in order to make that next leap, make it to the Finals. Like, Mobley is the big swing factor for them. I just, I don't know if he can be the offensive guy that they expect him to be. That's. That's my question with him.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, I think at this point, probably not. You know, I'm like feel pretty comfortable saying that. I mean, I will say the shooting thing is weird to me because his like, Quick Trigger 3 has looked really good.

[Andrew Schleich]

Not bad.

[Esper Henny]

Yes.

[Dave Dufour]

Right. Yeah. And. And then even some of the stuff off the dribble has looked really good. And all I can think is whatever they've been doing there. Right. Has affected him in the free throw line. Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I've worked with a lot of guys on shooting and you just. There's mechanical stuff and there's mental stuff and there's mental stuff that creates mechanical stuff. If you're overthinking it, if you're trying to put the ball in the rim, you know, it's actually not a good way to shoot, especially on free throws. And it could just be, you know, when you're standing there, man, the whole world is looking at you. And maybe it's just that. I don't know. But he. I, I just don't. I like the handle looks good right now, but he still doesn't seem like he's comfortable there, like attacking. Yeah, I just, if he could, if he had any sort of a back to the basket game, not like a, not a post up, like, I don't think he, you know, like, it's not that league and he's like big enough like bully ball. Not really, but like if he could create with his back to the basket, if you could feed him the ball at the elbow and he could spin and go, or if he could draw the double and, and, and make a pass, but he's just. He's not going to be that guy.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, he needs to. And I think a lot of these, these guys need to establish like, okay, like, what is. Like if you were to try to explain to somebody this is like Evan Mobley's go to way he has to score, right, what would you say? What would you say it is? Because, like, there's a lot of like these power forward bigs like through the history of the league that you're like, yeah, like, this is how they killed people. Like, this is the way that they did it.

[Esper Henny]

I guess pick and roll. Like, but that's, that's not him creating. That's him getting set up to do that.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

And it's not like he's. I don't, I don't know. It's. It is effective, but it's. It still doesn't feel like it's like, is like his. You know what I mean?

[Dave Dufour]

He can, he can anchor your defense, but he probably needs to be the third most important guy at best in your offense. Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. And lucky for him, he is.

[Dave Dufour]

Right. Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

They need.

[Esper Henny]

They need Garland back.

[Dave Dufour]

I like this. The comment on YouTube that Mobley's go to move is a wide open dunk thanks to Garland and Mitchell. And that is literally what.

[Esper Henny]

That is true though.

[Dave Dufour]

You know, he benefits so much from the gravity of those guys. And I just, you know, again, like we, when we were looking at him defensively, he's amazing, but the offensive stuff is just so rough. I mean, you'd rather he was your fourth best offensive player right now, I would think. Yep.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Speaking of offensive engines, I'm gonna take Alperin Shangun here.

[Esper Henny]

Great, great pick.

[Andrew Schleich]

I have been very.

[Esper Henny]

He was almost a thunder.

[Andrew Schleich]

He was. Well, he was. For just a. A few minutes. He was.

[Dave Dufour]

Yep.

[Andrew Schleich]

Wore the hat. He got.

[Esper Henny]

I know, I know. I said a thunder and I. Yeah. Like it.

[Dave Dufour]

Is it like jazz, where it's like jazz. You know, they say jazz, man, which I hate. I can't stand it.

[Esper Henny]

That's terrible.

[Dave Dufour]

Utah, the Jazz man, you know, but, like.

[Esper Henny]

Because you can't say he's. He's a. He'.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esper Henny]

He.

[Andrew Schleich]

No one says he's a Thunder if he's a heater.

[Dave Dufour]

Do they say a heater?

[Esper Henny]

He's a heater, but they do say he's a son when they do Phoenix sun, you know.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. You just say, yeah, they're a Thunder player.

[Dave Dufour]

Thunder is a sound and, you know, the sun is physical.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

I don't know.

[Dave Dufour]

Sorry.

[Andrew Schleich]

Anyway, I've been slow on Shangoon, and this is probably more of a me problem than it is anything else, because this archetype of player, I think, is really hard to build around in the NBA specifically, like a big. That is not great defensively. That is maybe not your very best offensive player, but he's like one of your top three players. I mean, you think about Vucevic as, like, kind of like the. The token guy, where it's like. And the problem with those guys is not only are they not great defensively, but because they're so good offensively, they get paid a lot. And so now you're like. Right. You're tying so much of your cap to these kinds of players that you feel like you can't win at the highest level with. And I think, like, he is closer to surpassing that than he is to being, like, the Vusevich type of player.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

And so he's been better defensively. A lot of it is that he's surrounded by guys that everybody defends, and if he is. Does happen to be the weakest link, he's not, like, the worst guy to have out there. He doesn't have to anchor their defense in any way.

[Dave Dufour]

He's such a great rebounder. Right. Like, he's. He still provides value even as a. A below average. Like, what we would consider below average defender.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

His rebounding is so, like, he actually provides positive value out there. So. Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

And.

[Dave Dufour]

And I'm with you. Like, I was probably a little slow on him, too. Same reason.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

But they built this really great team around him that highlights all of his strengths.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

And even the stuff with him and Reed Shepard, like that two. That works because of Shingoon. I mean, Reed shepherd looks great because he gets to play with Shingoon and with Katie.

[Esper Henny]

It's funny, man. Like, the first four names here, which I agree with, like, these. These are the four top four guys in this draft. All of these guys, in order to blossom, required the right Context, right? Like Cade needed the shooters, needed the spacing. Malik Beasley, right. Scotty needs to have a BI type score creator next to him. Mobley needs the. Like we talked about. Mitchell, Garland et Shangoon. The crazy defenders around him allowed him to be this offensive hub. So it's just like these guys are obviously all star, all NBA level players, but how important context is to these guys? Reaching their ceiling is just a different animal because there are some guys who thrive despite context or irregardless of context. These guys very clearly needed like the right thing around them to be as good as they possibly can be. So it's just an interesting kind of thing there. Speaking of a guy who probably still needs a better context around him, Franz Wagner. This is where I'm going with Franz. I'm high on Franz as a player. I think he's an elite driver. He creates a lot of good offense because of that. I think the Magic and Dave, we talked about this a little bit yesterday, but overall I think they have to figure out what their priorities are offensively and how they want to prioritize their guys. Get them in the best situations possible. You need to be really creative with that Magic offense and I don't think there's a ton of creativity there right now. They've allowed themselves to play a little bit faster without Paulo, but how are you going to reincorporate Paulo in once he's healthy while also providing Franz with kind of the context that works with him? He obviously the shooting is the big swing factor here. Like if he's going to be a decent pull up shooter and catch and shoot player, that's the biggest swing for him as a, as a player generally. But I, I think he will eventually be an all star level player. I think he has like all NBA level potential. It's just similar to those four guys we just talked about. Can he be put in the context to do that?

[Dave Dufour]

You know, shooting for him is, is the biggest thing. A buddy of mine coached him on the German national team and he described, he said he plays like a wrestler. Like yeah, he's like he's so physical and he was talking about the first time he coached him like skills and he just wasn't ready for just how like solid he was and, and truly like he came in an NBA with an NBA ready body and has used that to his advantage. If the shot comes around, this guy becomes a completely different.

[Andrew Schleich]

It's been better too. Like he's, he's been better this year.

[Dave Dufour]

He, he's had ankle trouble. You know, he had improved his shot, hurt his ankle in the 23 World cup, and then has kind of dealt with ankle issues since then. And maybe he's, maybe he's healthier right now. Like, I mean, the ankle really, like people just don't realize how much it can affect your jump shot. I mean, I know that saying it out loud is like, duh, but like, we don't think about it. Guy comes back from an ankle sprain and his numbers are down and people don't think about the fact that, oh yeah, it's, it hurts to shoot. Yeah. But with Franz, if he can ever shoot, the guy's a different player.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Very curious where you go here, by the way.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, wow. I mean, to me these, this is pretty simple, especially with the way this year is gone. I'm gonna take Jalen Johnson with the first one here.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

I'm a believer right now he's averaging 21 and a half points, nine and a half rebounds, seven assists, shooting 38 from three. I mean like this guy is an elite playmaker all of a sudden. Like, I mean, you think about his size and athleticism and. Did you guys see the dunk that he had the other day?

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. He's like the dude flies and, and.

[Dave Dufour]

He'S trying to, to just kill everyone.

[Esper Henny]

He wants to dunk everything.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Let me ask you, let me ask you this. If the, the Hawks called Orlando and said, let's swap Jalen Johnson for Franz Wagner, who says no?

[Esper Henny]

I think the Magic say no. Wow, that's tough. Actually. I don't know. Paulo and, and Jalen Johnson, like, kind of very similar to Franz and Paulo require the same areas.

[Andrew Schleich]

It does, it does.

[Dave Dufour]

But Jalen Johnson is a better shooter and I think just being more of it, I mean, just a multi level scoring threat makes a big difference. And he would maybe work better next to Paulo because of the shooting, but Jalen Johnson. Yeah, and. But anyone who's going to play next to Paolo is going to have to adjust their game. Right? Yeah. And so, but I would say Jalen Johnson. Jalen Johnson just feels like he has this. I mean, what's his ceiling like? Paul George. Paul George.

[Esper Henny]

If he could shoot like Paul George, that would be quite the thing.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, it's gonna, I mean, the volume is gonna, the volume increase like a ton, right?

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. And maybe it will when Trey comes back, you know, like that. That's the, the other thing is like the ball being in his hands a lot is gonna, is gonna keep him keep it down actually.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, he's at 3.4 attempts per game. I mean, the thing about PG and like when people compare people to Paul George, that dude got up so many attempts.

[Dave Dufour]

He was basically like Steph Curry and Klay Thompson is for a stretch of his career.

[Esper Henny]

As far as being 40.

[Andrew Schleich]

His second and last year in OKC, he was at 10 attempts a game from three.

[Esper Henny]

Where does Paul George rank on three pointers made all time?

[Dave Dufour]

That's an interesting.

[Andrew Schleich]

He's got it. He's got to be high up there. I'll. I'll figure it out.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, I got you. He's six of the month amongst active players and he is ninth all time.

[Andrew Schleich]

That's right.

[Esper Henny]

It's kind of crazy that there's six players in the top 10 who are.

[Dave Dufour]

Active, but that's okay. So my next pick, undrafted Austin Reeves. I. I'm.

[Esper Henny]

I was hoping you'd miss him. I was hoping you'd somehow forget.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, he was one of the first people I pencil.

[Esper Henny]

Okay.

[Dave Dufour]

28 points a game, six. Six rebounds, seven assists. I mean, I, I didn't know this guy was going to be this good. I don't think anybody did, obviously, because he went undrafted and he has kind of turned himself into. I mean, we were talking about it with Yovon last year where he was maybe the best number three in the league. Right? Just reliable. What is it? He definitely is now, right?

[Andrew Schleich]

The best number three.

[Esper Henny]

Is he even a number three?

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, come on. Come on. He's playing with Luca and LeBron, whatever.

[Esper Henny]

41 year old LeBron James, like, this.

[Dave Dufour]

Is all NBA last season. I can only, I can only respond to the evidence I have in front of me. And, and you know, yeah, LeBron was hurt, but my memory is much longer. LeBron's still like a top 10 or 12 player, it seems like.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esper Henny]

No, it's just because like, offensively the Lakers use him like he's the number two, you know?

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. But for now.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, for now.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Chet. Number three, Guy.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Amin Thompson.

[Dave Dufour]

Okay, Guy.

[Andrew Schleich]

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[Dave Dufour]

Closer. Closer than. Than we would think, right? Yep.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Jalen Suggs is like a different kind of number three guy, but like his, his like added value and we'll have a chance to talk to him, talk about him soon. But like the added value of just winning is just, is just there. Like he just has all these intangibles about him that you're like, I just want that guy on my team kind of thing. Austin's really good. He, he has to show it in the playoffs. Like, he has to show that he can be like that third guy in the playoffs. And like the Lakers are going to find themselves in a really interesting position next summer because I think they would like to kind of keep everything open so that.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, they have to pay him though.

[Andrew Schleich]

Get somebody. But it's like, okay, now, like, you can't let this guy go. And he is, he's earned a pretty fat paycheck. So that, that'll be like an interesting summertime deal. But anyways, Austin Reeves at 7s, you're back up.

[Esper Henny]

I can go three different ways with this and I'm kind of split. There are three players that I'm considering right now.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay.

[Esper Henny]

I think all three that I, I honestly think all three have a good case. I think I'm gonna lean with the guy who is, is turning heads the most this season, which is Josh Giddy.

[Andrew Schleich]

Josh Giddy.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Whoa.

[Esper Henny]

I think I'm gonna do it.

[Dave Dufour]

Whoa.

[Esper Henny]

I'm gonna commit to it. Obviously off to a tremendous start this season. 20 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists. Basically a triple double. It's like 9.9, 9.5. Regardless, the three point shooting seems to be there now to a certain degree. Like 37 last year, 38 this year on similar volume. Like it seems like that's now going to be at least on mid volume part of his career. Yeah, I guess generally his defense is not good and the Bulls are not good defensively either. And I think very similar to some of these other flawed players that we've mentioned so far. Like, Josh needs the perfect context around him. They need to build with plus wing defenders and guys who can scramble and you know, kind of work around all that type of stuff. Right. To, to make him a better defensive player. But he's big, he can rebound. I think he will be able to get gaudy box score numbers. I think because of that he will be an all Star at some point in his career. Maybe this year.

[Andrew Schleich]

Probably make it this year. He's almost averaging a triple double. 20.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

I think it was you, Andrew, on Slammin Jam who said he could be the first time all Star this year. Right?

[Andrew Schleich]

Yes.

[Esper Henny]

I, I think your case was. Has panned out perfectly because you were like, he's probably gonna average a triple double. Boom. He's averaging a triple double. He's. The scoring is through the roof right now. I think the Bulls have picked the perfect type of context offensively around him, not defensively. I think he's a good player, man. I think he's figured it out. I think, you know, to the point Joel Lorenzi made when he was on the show a couple weeks ago. Josh is a guy who needs the ball in his hands and the Bulls are willing to have Josh be the guy to create for them. So. Yeah, that's why he's doing as well as he is right now.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. And he, it's. What's funny is that had Jalen Williams been what people thought he was going to be just like this role player, wing, like do it all. Role player wing. Whereas, like, he can shoot, he can handle some, he can pass, that's great. But he just like exploded and became like a literal all NBA, all defense player. And Josh was supposed to be that guy for OKC though. Like, he was supposed to be the second guy next to Shay and be the guy, like be this guy where the con. The context that you're talking about is really the Thunder, you know, like 100%, like minus Jalen Williams. It was supposed, that was supposed to be his context because you can't really think of a better center to pair with him than Chad Holmgren. Like a guy that protects the rim at that level and shoots that way. And then you have like a. The score that Shay is next to him and he can be like this big creator. But the problem in OKC was that Jalen just got so much better than him so fast that it was like, okay, now Josh, you do the things you do worst and that's defend and shoot, corner threes.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

And he, he was not good at it because he's asked to do everything he's not good at. So the Bulls do need to like find their, you know, you can't just go find Chad Holmgren. But like a version of that that can defend.

[Esper Henny]

And Anthony Davis, come on down.

[Andrew Schleich]

I. I don't think it's a. I don't know.

[Dave Dufour]

The Bulls, look, they need players who play. Okay. They do need players, Hallmark. They play their guys, they play hard. It's why they wind up in the play in.

[Capital One Advertiser]

Right.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

They play themselves in. Literally.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Anthony Davis not gonna play.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

That's what they need.

[Andrew Schleich]

He has no market player. We have a joke on. Back when it was like the. Like, Anthony Davis said, it was like, in his second or third year, people used to ask questions on down to dunk. Like, hey, can we. Like, how do we get an Anthony Davis type player? Was, like, the question. And it was like, y', all, like, get the number one pick in the draft. Like, that's. Yeah. Like, there's your option of, like, how to get an Anthony Davis type player. But, yeah, Josh had a great season so far. He had a great.

[Esper Henny]

I'm comfortable picking Josh here.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. After Zach Levine was gone, like, he really picked it up. He's shown a lot of potential. The Bulls are at least fun. Like, that's a. That's a fun team.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. I'm up at 9 and 10, and I will take Trey Murphy. He was next on my board.

[Esper Henny]

That was the other guy I was debating.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay. Trapped in the hell hole that is the New Orleans Pelicans.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

He. He's got to get out of there. Get out of there, number one, and find a good context, because if this guy was on. If he was, like, on the Knicks or if he was on the Nuggets or he was on the Timberwolves or if he was on the warriors or any team, people would be talking about this guy way differently. But he's. He's, like, trapped in maybe the wor on the worst team he could be on in the Pelicans, and no one really notices, like, what he's able to do. I mean, the guy is 26 and three with 1.7 steals per game. He takes eight threes a game at 37%. He's a career.

[Esper Henny]

One of the best shooters in the NBA.

[Andrew Schleich]

Incredible shooter, incredible dunker, incredible personality as well, and.

[Dave Dufour]

And yet really likes Tevin Campbell.

[Andrew Schleich]

He likes what?

[Dave Dufour]

Tevin Campbell.

[Andrew Schleich]

What's Tevin Campbell?

[Dave Dufour]

The singer?

[Andrew Schleich]

Oh, I don't know. I didn't.

[Esper Henny]

I don't know who that was either.

[Dave Dufour]

Yep. That's all I know about Trey Murphy personally.

[Andrew Schleich]

He likes to. Yeah. I just think that the Pelicans are almost invisible like, to the NBA at this point. Like, the only thing that people want to talk about when it comes to the Pelicans is the fact that they traded their pick and their front office is a disaster, and yet they have this guy who really is an all star level player just kind of hiding in plain sight down there. And Trey Murphy, and I feel like if he was on a different team or in a different context, he probably would have gone higher, but he's got some of that New Orleans Pelican stink on him, and so he just falls several. Several places. Like, he. He could be in the Jalen Johnson spot. He could be in the Franz Wagner.

[Esper Henny]

Spot if he's in the right context. Right.

[Andrew Schleich]

That's good. I just think he's in the worst context for a player that plays NBA basketball. I.

[Esper Henny]

He is like, my. He's near the top of my list of, like, if the Raptors wanted to make some sort of swing move, yeah, he's the guy to go out and get. Like, Derek White is in that category. Trey Murphy is in that category. Like that they need another guard, slash wing guy who can shoot the ball, shoot the leather off the ball. Trey is that guy. And you're to your point, like. Yeah, if he's in a different context, I think he could really, really pop off.

[Dave Dufour]

It's a. It's amazing that we talk about how this, you know, it's like a. A league that values length and athleticism and shooting and like, he does everything.

[Esper Henny]

He literally does everything.

[Andrew Schleich]

And it's good.

[Dave Dufour]

I mean, when we were talking about Cam Johnson all. All this time, not very often you hear people say, hey, how about Trey Murphy? How come teams weren't. Why wasn't Trey Murphy the hot girl at the club? Yeah. Pelicans clearly don't value the guy.

[Andrew Schleich]

No, they don't. It's.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

I mean, I would look the way the Pelicans are making trades, I would just call and ask, you know.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Which phone, though? You gotta. Yeah, both.

[Andrew Schleich]

All of them.

[Esper Henny]

This is, by the way, at this point in the draft, there's a drop off.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, yeah.

[Esper Henny]

So I'm very curious where you go.

[Dave Dufour]

So. No, there's one more. I think there's one more guy that belongs up in. In that. That top 10 is. Is pretty solid. Okay. I'm assuming it's gonna be. Okay.

[Esper Henny]

I'm curious.

[Andrew Schleich]

Taking Jalen Suggs right here.

[Dave Dufour]

That's right. That's who I think.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay.

[Esper Henny]

Actually, I thought he was drafted already. Sorry, go ahead.

[Dave Dufour]

Right.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. He's the other Jalen hard, hard nose player. Like a guy that you trust to be on your team to help you win and has the leadership stuff. He's good enough. He's a good enough shooter. He's not the guy that people were hoping that he would be offensively. Like, he's. He's more of like the Marcus Smart role than he is like your primary point guard. But he's just going to help you win basketball games and you need these kind of guys on your team. Like, if you're Orlando, I think you feel really comfortable with him occupying that spot and figuring out the rest because he is just that kind of player. So, yeah, give me, give me Jalen Suggs.

[Dave Dufour]

I like it. I like it.

[Esper Henny]

Okay, now is where there's a bit of a drop off.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Now it's.

[Esper Henny]

Now it's where beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Now this is a personality test for the three. It's like, who, like who are you? Like, who are you? Are you okay? I'm. I'm curious. I'm very curious.

[Dave Dufour]

I'm.

[Esper Henny]

I'm locking in on this one guy who I think people have forgotten about, similarly to another guy we just talked about in Trey Murphy because he plays for the New Orleans Pelicans.

[Andrew Schleich]

Oh, man.

[Esper Henny]

I'm gonna take Herb Jones here. I think Herb is one of the best defenders in the NBA.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

I think unfortunately he is in a context where that does not matter. I think he can shoot the ball better. Like, what is he right now? Let's see. He's 36%.

[Andrew Schleich]

36%. That's what he is. Career.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, that's about. I would say like 36, 37% is probably where he's going to be at for the rest of his career if. If that pans out. Plus being literally all world defensively, I think that's one of the best 3&D players you can get. It just depends on like his context and where he is because it just doesn't matter in New Orleans. It really doesn't matter if you haven't. He's. I saw someone say this. Maybe it was shamat Dua shout out to my guy. But similarly to Alex Caruso on the Bulls where it's like, this guy is obviously a very talented defender and very useful offensive player, but what does it matter when he was playing for the Bulls? He just needs to go to a team where what he does is important.

[Dave Dufour]

Connective offensive pieces require things to connect.

[Andrew Schleich]

100.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

And there's nothing. There's. There's Nothing there in New Orleans for sure. So Herb Jones seems the way to go here.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay. Herb Jones.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, man.

[Andrew Schleich]

Dave, you got two. You got two.

[Dave Dufour]

It's hard. I. I'm gonna fight my. My desire to lean into my bit and pick Mamu. Although Mamu is great and he's just on the outside of this, I might.

[Esper Henny]

I might. You know, I gotta pick. I gotta pick.

[Dave Dufour]

If I. If I was Andrew, I definitely would take Mamu. Right. Look, I'm gonna take these two guys back to back and just talk about them together. I'm gonna take Quentin Grimes and I'm gonna take Jalen Green.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay.

[Dave Dufour]

You know, look, scoring guards, I think Jalen Green, if he went here in the draft, man, we feel way differently about this guy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. His first step is insanely fast. He gets to the basket. He. He actually, like last year, defended very well with the Rockets team. I. I think he's an underrated player, and it is very tied into the fact that he went number two, period.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Quentin Grimes is the other way. It's. He's underrated player. I think that a lot of people don't know that Quentin Grimes is like just about a 20 point a game scorer. Yeah, that guy could probably. I mean, I think he's a starting guard in the NBA and he's just in a place where, you know, he's kind of buried right. There's so many guys, and there's not much incentive to. To make him the featured guy. I don't know if. I mean, he's not better than Tyrese Maxey, but. Yeah, I. I think Grimes is a much better player than people realize.

[Andrew Schleich]

It. It's. You know, there. There are teams out there that need guards and, you know, none of those teams would ever trade Quentin Grimes, though, right? Yeah, like, they would never. A team that's desperate for guards. I'm talking about Dallas. They traded him. They traded him. They're the ones who did it.

[Dave Dufour]

Okay. That any trade that the Dallas Mavericks made historically just has to be thrown out the window.

[Andrew Schleich]

It.

[Esper Henny]

Right.

[Andrew Schleich]

That. That dude, that trade, that. That trade on. It's on its face was just like a fireball offense. Yeah, it was really dumb. I was just like, really, really dumb. Yeah. I don't. I don't know what to do with that.

[Dave Dufour]

They.

[Andrew Schleich]

I mean, imagine him on Dallas right now. Like, how much would he be.

[Esper Henny]

It'd be awesome.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

How much he would be grabbing them?

[Dave Dufour]

Like, they still would be pretty bad. Yeah. Anthony Davis still probably not playing.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. But I mean, like, that Just having a useful guard.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. Well, how about a youthful guard that, like. I mean, the guy is young. I mean, this is. Yeah, this is the. The thing about trading this guy. It was like, these dudes do not actually grow on trees.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, he. He's kind of had a similar trajectory to, like, Nil, where he's like this, like, first round pick. And for whatever reason, both these guys have had to bounce around to reach their destination. And I don't think it's like, the kind of people they are. It's just been really weird for both of them. And the fact that. That, like, even Minnesota decided not to keep Nikhil was strange. And the fact, like, you look back at all these teams that didn't keep Quentin Grimes is like, this is really weird. Like, I really don't know what to do with this.

[Dave Dufour]

I think the bias of draft position for a front office. Right. So the bias of draft position. These salary slots have a huge effect. I mean, Andrew, you know, like, I mean, a huge effect on. On all sorts of moves. But. But front offices, like, they have their pet projects. You know, it's going to be tough to. To for a team. Like, if they draft a guy and they draft him high, they're gonna have a hard. A harder time moving that guy than a guy like Grimes, period. Yeah. Less. Less emotional attachment because they are human beings. As much as they want to act like they're robots, they do have emotional attachment to these draft picks.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Except when it comes to Quentin Grimes. And you. And you took Jalen Green.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. Again, he's a good player. I think if he doesn't go, if he's not the number two pick, this is about where we feel he is. And I. I mean, I think he's totally fine. Guard.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. I am kind of averse to this kind of player in that they play like they're the number one guy, but they can never be your number one guy. Right.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

There's actually another guy like that in this draft class that we haven't talked about yet.

[Andrew Schleich]

Like the ultimate version of that.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, the pinnacle of that version.

[Dave Dufour]

I almost took. Look, I almost took Cam Thomas, but I did not want to go too hard into the bit. I think Jalen Green's a better player than Cam Thomas.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, I agree.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, I think so, too. I just think, like, the Zach Levines and even demar derozans of the world that, like, have to play. In order for them to play their game, they have to play. They have to be the Guy. But there are so many players that are so much. That are at such a higher level that if you bring those guys in, they're going to make up a majority of your cap sheet. And you're gonna have to figure. Now, the good thing about Jalen Green is that he doesn't. And.

[Dave Dufour]

Right. It's a great contract.

[Andrew Schleich]

He's on a good contract. Raphael Stone's done an amazing job with. With contracts. Yeah. He's done so, so well.

[Dave Dufour]

Here's the thing about Jalen Green. All right. I want to see, like, we haven't had a chance to really see him play next to Devin Booker. And, you know, guards, they. They benefit. Playing next to elite guards all the time. We see. We see this quite often. He's clearly not the number one guy in the pecking order, but he also guards, like, he does defend, and I. I think that that has to matter a little bit. Like, when we're talking about these guys, he's. He's not. I mean, I'd rather he was the sixth man, obviously, than a starter.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

I mean, he would. We would feel. Again, we would feel much.

[Esper Henny]

That's always the thing with these guys. Right. It's like if they could just suc. Being the bench player, you know?

[Dave Dufour]

Right. Yeah. But I. I think Jaylen. I think Jalen, is. He. This is about where he would go. I. I feel somewhere in this range.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Yeah. I. I don't. I don't. I'm not a Jalen Green guy. I would. I think. I. I'm trying to think of where.

[Dave Dufour]

Andrew's taken Aaron Wiggins for sure. I thought about taking Aaron Wiggins. I'm.

[Esper Henny]

I'm honestly thinking about taking it just so Andrew can't take him, you know.

[Dave Dufour]

Because Aaron Wiggins, like, if Aaron Wiggins is. Is on a different team, I don't know what it looks like. Man, that guy is insane.

[Andrew Schleich]

He's the best.

[Dave Dufour]

He's so good.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, he is really good. I. There's also, like, there's another player here that went in the top seven of this draft.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, there is that.

[Esper Henny]

Like, maybe in another world, like, if he gets traded, this year could be higher. I feel like I kind of just want to take him for the sake of taking him.

[Dave Dufour]

Just a value pick.

[Esper Henny]

Just a value pick here. I'm gonna take Jonathan Kaminga.

[Andrew Schleich]

Oh, okay.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah. I. There. Ha. He has to eventually become a good player. Right? That's. That's.

[Dave Dufour]

No, no, no, no.

[Andrew Schleich]

I'm glad Dave and I both agree on this.

[Esper Henny]

No, like, there's just there's too much there.

[Dave Dufour]

And he's still playing defense. Like. Like he's wearing, like, wooden clogs.

[Andrew Schleich]

I mean, it's. It's. If we're taking. If we're talking skill set, like, NBA body, like, he's going, like, number two for me, probably. But the fact that, like, he just cannot make it work with some of the best players to ever play the game. To ever play the game. And, like, you can't. You've been here for years, years, and you just can't figure out how to play with these guys. I'm like, I'm so out. I am so, so out. Like, look at the rest of this list. Most of those guys I would trust to figure out how to play with Steph and Draymond, almost all of those guys, I'd be like, yes, you can do it. He can't do it. And like, that, to me, is the biggest red flag ever.

[Esper Henny]

Okay, fine. You've convinced me and I want to change it. And Donkey 16 brought up a very good point. I'm taking Davion Mitchell here.

[Dave Dufour]

Davion Mitchell has been better. He has been better. Davion Mitchell has been better than Jonathan Kaminga.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah. He's completely turned around his career, by the way, because when. When he was on the Raptors, it was like, is he gonna stay in the league? And then obviously the three point shot.

[Andrew Schleich]

Another top 10 pick, by the way.

[Esper Henny]

Another top 10 pick.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Like, the three point shot has panned out. Very good decision maker. Obviously an elite defender for his position. I just think he's like.

[Dave Dufour]

And honestly, he'll stick around. Wait, we gotta. We gotta also say the. Maybe a top five nickname of all time. Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Off night is as a top five.

[Esper Henny]

It's incredible.

[Dave Dufour]

Yep, yep.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Period.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, he's. He's thrived.

[Esper Henny]

There's, like six players Andrew could take here, but he's gonna take Aaron Wiggins.

[Dave Dufour]

He's got to.

[Andrew Schleich]

I.

[Dave Dufour]

He's got to. Aaron Wiggins is too good.

[Esper Henny]

I mean, you. You wouldn't be wrong in taking Aaron Wiggins. Like, Mamu is here. IO Dsumu is here. You can take the value pick of Cam Thomas if you believe in Santi Aldama.

[Andrew Schleich]

Listen, you know, I do. I do like Moses Moody, you know? Yeah, Moody. Moody is. Moody's fine. He's fine.

[Esper Henny]

Kispert.

[Andrew Schleich]

Corey Kispert. He's fun.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Also like, another context guy where he has been in the wrong context for the entire career. If he was on a good team, that would help Him a lot. I. I'm by. I'm like crazy biased for Aaron Wiggins, the person, because he's just delightful guy and he is one of like, like the hidden best, like three level scores in the NBA. Like, the guy can hit threes, he can hit jumpers, you know, off the dribble, in the mid range, he can get to the hoop, he can do it all. He's a getting. He's not a great defender. He's probably one of the weaker links defensively on the Thunder, mostly because he has to defend bigger guys typically. And he's really not that big, but he is willing. He's in the right spots and he's just one of the funnier people that I know.

[Dave Dufour]

And he's a microwave.

[Andrew Schleich]

He's a microwave score. He's like. He's a six man. He hasn't. I mean, he's been out for a little while. Yeah, he has an abductor strain on down to dunk. I. I actually, I said pray for his abductor, but I should have said abductor. Anyways, Aaron Wiggins, I think he's awesome and he's super funny and so I have to put him here. But yeah, a lot of good, like, role players left and I mean, you could.

[Dave Dufour]

You could.

[Andrew Schleich]

If you're a Cam Thomas believer, maybe you're a Trey Mann guy. Like those. Those are like.

[Dave Dufour]

I think Trey Mann is so good.

[Andrew Schleich]

Scores off the bench that I think could really help teams. Mama is somebody that should have probably gone and this has been outrageous for the Raptors.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, I.O. man, I.O.

[Andrew Schleich]

Is on my list. I was like 19th on my list. Yeah, I can. I can play. But yeah, let us know what you think of the list.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Deuce. Deuce McBride.

[Andrew Schleich]

McBride is another one. That is. That is good. Yeah. There's also players on this list.

[Esper Henny]

Might be the best undrafted class, too. Between Austin Reeves, Jose Alvarado, Jay Huff, Sam Houser, Trendon Watford, you know, Keaton Wallace, even, who's playing for the Hawks.

[Andrew Schleich]

Like a Keaton Wallace mention.

[Dave Dufour]

Wow.

[Esper Henny]

Hey.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yes, he exists.

[Esper Henny]

He's good.

[Andrew Schleich]

He.

[Esper Henny]

I actually kind of like Keaton Wallace, to be honest.

[Dave Dufour]

Guys, we just got maybe the best compliment I've ever gotten on a single live stream. Someone asked us to expand the draft. Always leave them wanting more. That's awesome. Thank you.

[Esper Henny]

That's a.

[Dave Dufour]

That's a great. That's a great compliment, but no, let.

[Andrew Schleich]

Us know about our drafts if you. If you need the list. Maybe we'll post it on social, but also just go to YouTube if you're listening on the app and you'll get to see. See them listed out. I have them in a. In a doc here with us live on YouTube. So appreciate you guys tuning in. Hope everybody has a Happy Thanksgiving. Dave, your favorite Thanksgiving food. Ask your favorite Thanksgiving food.

[Dave Dufour]

Pumpkin pie. Pumpkin pie.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay. Besides dessert. Besides dessert.

[Esper Henny]

Candy.

[Dave Dufour]

Pumpkin pie is not dessert. But pumpkin pie is a side to me, Dave.

[Andrew Schleich]

It's absolutely a dessert.

[Esper Henny]

Candied yams.

[Andrew Schleich]

Okay, me too.

[Dave Dufour]

Okay, wait, wait, no, hold on a second. Candy in the name. And you're saying that's not a dessert?

[Andrew Schleich]

Yes.

[Esper Henny]

We don't.

[Andrew Schleich]

We don't get to choose the categories. They are chosen. Chosen for us. The categories are chosen for us. We are just eating whenever it's. Whenever it's time.

[Dave Dufour]

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

And by the way, turkey overrated.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, turkey's a bad bird, but yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, honestly, probably mashed potatoes, which is so funny because you get mashed potatoes whenever you want.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Something about Thanksgiving. Mashed potatoes.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, Agreed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

I don't know. The bread, like, honestly, good yeast rolls or whatever. Dinner rolls.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Stuffing. I like stuffing, too, if it's done right.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah, totally.

[Esper Henny]

But, yeah, candy DMS is the special. My wife makes a very. I mean, like, it's not hard to make candy DMS because it's just, like, tons of sugar.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. It's a m. I'm trying something tomorrow called Tofurky. Oh, apparently.

[Esper Henny]

I don't think that'll be good.

[Andrew Schleich]

That sounds terrible.

[Dave Dufour]

I will report back. I will let you know.

[Andrew Schleich]

Have you guys ever had a stuffing waffle?

[Dave Dufour]

No. Oh, man, that's a good idea.

[Andrew Schleich]

So the day after you.

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, that's.

[Andrew Schleich]

Take stuffing, you put it in a waffle iron, and then you can throw. Then if you want to throw turkey and candy gravy and whatever you want on it. Or if you want. If. If you want to go gravy, if.

[Dave Dufour]

You want to go saute some green onions and some scallions.

[Andrew Schleich]

Sure.

[Dave Dufour]

Right.

[Andrew Schleich]

Sure.

[Dave Dufour]

Throw it on top.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

Almost like a. Like a Korean, like pancake.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

I just want to just throw that out there. That the stuffing waffle. The day after Thanksgiving hits. Really?

[Dave Dufour]

I love that this has turned into a food podcast here in the last.

[Andrew Schleich]

It's really few weeks. Yeah, I'm all about that. Yeah, about that.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. It's good stuff.

[Andrew Schleich]

Good. Stuffing, waffle.

[Esper Henny]

Also. Also.

[Dave Dufour]

Wow.

[Esper Henny]

I forgot Mac and cheese.

[Andrew Schleich]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

I'm from the south, and so I have opinions on Mac and cheese. But I also am not a Mac and cheese guy. That makes sense. Like there's a way. It has to be in order for me to have them even a little bit. But I probably have had Mac and cheese on Thanksgiving twice in my life.

[Andrew Schleich]

Wow.

[Esper Henny]

Wow.

[Andrew Schleich]

Sad.

[Dave Dufour]

Something about too much cheese doesn't do it for me.

[Andrew Schleich]

Something about too much cheese.

[Dave Dufour]

I get light cheese on pizza, so just, I don't know.

[Esper Henny]

What's your go to type of pizza?

[Dave Dufour]

Oh, Margarita. I'm a pizza guy, so, like go classic all the time. Yeah, Margarita.

[Esper Henny]

Little, little vodka margarita.

[Dave Dufour]

I like it. Yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Really good.

[Dave Dufour]

Especially if like you got a hot chili oil.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, sure.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Wow.

[Esper Henny]

I'm, I'm a, I'm a big soprasada.

[Dave Dufour]

Guy, you know, I mean, so since I stopped eating meat, right. Like it's, it's a different thing. But I mean, this summer in Italy, it was very hard to turn it down.

[Esper Henny]

Turn down the. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schleich]

Wow.

[Dave Dufour]

Very good.

[Esper Henny]

Anyways, so we're just hanging. Yeah, yeah. Food podcast launching soon.

[Dave Dufour]

That's right.

[Andrew Schleich]

Just give me a Domino's pizza. All right, that's. I don't need anything. Anything fancy. All right. Hope you guys have an awesome Thanksgiving. We will have slamming jam on Friday. This week, Samvasini joined Alex and I and we talked about the 2026 draft. We also did trivia over the 2025 rookies. That was very hard. It was extremely difficult. So hope you guys enjoy Thanksgiving. We'll talk to you guys again on Friday.

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Ready to order?

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Yes.

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[Dave Dufour]

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