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- [00:00]
Advertiser
This message is brought to you by Apple Card For a limited time, get a new Apple card and get $150 bonus daily cash when you spend $150 or more at Nike in your first 30 days using your new Apple Card with Apple Pay, Visit Apple Co nikepromo for important offer details. Subject to credit approval. Offer valid only for new Apple Card accounts open by June 15, 2025. To qualify, you must spend $150 or more on Nike purchases within the US offer may not be available elsewhere. Additional terms and Lim did you hear it's easier than ever to level up your card collecting game with PSA grading now on ebay Listings easy and seamless. Here's how it works. Find a raw card over $250, add grading and make your purchase. That's it. Plus for a limited time, shipping from PSA to you is free. Ready to build the most epic collection? Learn more@ebay.com PSA what makes a great pair of glasses?
- [01:01]
Andrew Schleck
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- [01:38]
Dave Dufour
Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily Special NBA finals edition for June 14, 2025. I'm Dave Dufour here with Andrew Schleck coming up. Ooh, the Thunder win one that we thought they were going to lose and the series is now tied two games apiece. And I'm going to talk to Sampson folk after the break. What happened to the Pacers and how they collapsed in the fourth quarter. Good morning everybody. Good morning, Andrew saying that for real because it's real late in Oklahoma City. How about those Thunder? The Thunder pull a little Pacers and have a comeback win in a game, Andrew, that I thought they were definitely going to lose and I thought the finals were done. How. How about that? They they pulled one out that was a championship sort of win. That's one that you hang your hat on.
- [02:34]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, I mean the way that they closed that game was it didn't look anything like the rest of the game at all because if you watch that game, the Pacers owned it. They owned that game up until really the last three minutes of it. And the Thunder just went on what felt like an improbable run. So from the 2:58 mark until the end of the game, the Thunder went on a 12 to 1 run where the, the Pacers missed all five of their field goals. Then the one point was a Ben Matheran free throw in which he missed all the other ones.
- [03:06]
Dave Dufour
The other three.
- [03:07]
Andrew Schleck
Yep. Shay went 6 of 6 from the free throw line, scored 11 points. He scored 11 of the 12 points for OKC in that stretch run. And Dort had the other point which he split the free throws. And they both just these moon balls to the. From the free throw. It's just like I, I don't know, I didn't expect anything to go in, but just an incredible performance, you know, from the Thunder in this one where they just. They did. I feel like this was the inverse of game one, right. In the finals where the, the Thunder owned game one, the Pacers owned this game, but they just hung around. Like the games it's at, it's 7 when it, when it felt like it should be 27.
- [03:49]
Dave Dufour
Yeah.
- [03:50]
Andrew Schleck
And in those kind of games, teams that just give themselves a shot to like hang around, maybe you can put something together. And the, the biggest adjustment. And you sent me John Schuman's stat about this, if you want to read it. But like that, that was like the adjustment that just flipped everything for OKC down the stretch.
- [04:10]
Dave Dufour
Yeah. In this series so far, the number of screens that Shay and Jalen Williams, J Dub have set for each other. Game one, one screen. Game two, two screens. Game three, zero screens. Game four, nine. Seven of those in the fourth quarter. And look, we know this, it's basketball. If you get your two best players involved in actions together, whatever the actions, dho, regular screens, I mean, you can just, you can do a pass and cut, give and go, whatever you want to do. You put your two best players in action with the ball and you're going to get good things. And I mean, we're all going to say, well, what took you so long, Mark? I mean, this is the most that they've, that they've had in their. In the past three seasons together. And it came to a certain degree in desperation. I mean, this was a quarter that they played for the finals. I mean, it's just unlikely they come back from three one. I mean, it's. The Pacers are a pretty good basketball team and, and that is a statistical fluke anyway. When a team comes back from 3 1. So the quarter for the, for the season, they go to this and it's extremely successful. Are you. I mean, I know you're not surprised.
- [05:24]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, I, I think a lot of this stuff isn't rocket science.
- [05:27]
Dave Dufour
Right.
- [05:27]
Andrew Schleck
It's like let's just use our two best players and, and play them off each other. And the one thing they kind of discovered, and it's something that they known throughout this series with them, is that Shay's just way more comfortable with N. Smith on him than he is with Nemhard on him. Nemhard did a great job. He was just an absolute monster. But I think the one play that I think gave Thunder fans the most hope was the shot that started that 12 to 1 run was. It was the two main game of Shay and J Dub. They get the switch onto Nimhard or on Denise Smith and Nimhard tried doubles over to Shay. Shay throws to J Dub, which everybody flies out to Dub and Dub drives just a few feet inside the three point line and just throws out to Shay who takes that open three and cans it. And like that was, that was like one of the first moments were like, ah, they actually like ran something. There's an assist which The Thunder had 10 of.
- [06:23]
Dave Dufour
Yeah.
- [06:23]
Andrew Schleck
You know how many times The Thunder had 10 or less assists in this season? Zero.
- [06:28]
Dave Dufour
Zero. Right. Yeah.
- [06:29]
Andrew Schleck
I was going to say didn't happen. Didn't happen. 16 was the least amount that they had all regular season. 13 is the least amount they've had and it was against the Pacer. So the Pacers deserve a ton of credit for that. Like, this isn't just the Thunder missing shots. It's the Thunder not being able to get into actions because they're, they basically get into their half court sets with the shot clock at like 14 because they're getting pressured so much. And so that to me is, is a huge reason why Thunder have slowed down. But I do think that they started to figure something out, you know, down the stretch of this one with Shay and Dub and just, can we just work a little bit where it's not isolation basketball? Because I think that if it was what the rest of the game was, which was just ISO ball, they were going to lose that basketball game.
- [07:18]
Dave Dufour
Well, that's where they wear.
- [07:19]
Andrew Schleck
Because they figured it out.
- [07:20]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, that's where, that's where the fatigue in the fourth quarter shows up that, that the Pacers have relied on. And, and to a certain degree, I would say the Pacers got a little bit of their own medicine here because what they, what they proved is it is actually hard to do 94ft of defense and to play offense at that pace for for, you know, however many quarters. Now we are into the finals, you know, 28 quarters or whatever, it feels like. They, they are, they are the team that was behind the eight ball from, from a rest standpoint. The, the truth is they go away from Pascal Siakam completed down the stretch. They're not getting really a. Past the free throw line, much less into the paint. I mean, the ball is just not even getting to the corners. It's not, it's not getting below the break at all. I mean, the shot chart in the fourth quarter really does tell the story for the Pacers. And that was all about, I, I thought fatigue of the Pacers and then Oklahoma City finding legs where they haven't had them in the fourth quarter. I do want to talk about J Dub because his game is going to get overlooked a little bit because Shea had such a ridiculous fourth quarter. But they don't get a chance to come back if J Dub doesn't have the game. He has 27 points. He was 11 of 11 from the free throw line at times, was the only guy seemingly willing to take a hard shot, which is, you know, I mean, usually it's Shea that's having to do that. So the only other guy willing to take a tough shot was J Dub. We talked a lot about his, you know, I, I won't say his inability to, to step up because he's had moments, but this now is a few games in a row where you can say, if we say, hey, J Dub, he was by far the best, the second best player on the Thunder. This is what this is supposed to look like. And them playing off of each other, to me, again, all makes sense when you see how J Dub played for the first three and a half quarters of that game.
- [09:09]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, he kept them in it. He kept the. Like you talk about him and Caruso just kept them within, you know, arm's reach. And you look at his shot chart, it was all downhill, it was all aggression. And that's what the Thunder were kind of missing in game three was that they weren't the aggressor. And J Dub made it a point to be aggressive the entire night. All his made shots were either on the. On his way to the rim or right at the rim. And I think, like, that is a really important point. And I think that he was trying to almost prove a point where it was like he. Nobody's making threes for the Thunder tonight, but the fact that they kind of knew that, like, this is not what they were going to rely on. They're going to be aggressive, they're going to get to the free throw line. Like you said, 11 of 11 just to make them all. It's like that's not super characteristic of Dub. Like he is good to miss like two or three every game, it feels like. But for him to make all his free throws, to play downhill, to play super aggressive, to have three of their 10 assists, which feels like a ton. He, he had a great game. And then defensively too, like the guy, a lot of times I feel like we highlight his offense and I know he did make the all defensive team and very much deserving. Like he was very, very good tonight on switches. Now that's not a guy that they wanted on Halliburton. They were, they were hunting Chet down the stretch. I think we can talk about Chad here in a minute. But yeah, they, they were trying to keep J Dub as far away from the guys with the basketball as they could. And it's because he had, he'd done such a good job, you know, defensively, like he, he deserves a ton of credit for this win.
- [10:53]
Dave Dufour
I mean, you mentioned chat the lineup change. Isaiah Hardenstein back in the starting lineup. Kayson Wallace back off the bench. I think Chad's the guy who benefited the most. Obviously being able to roam as a rebounder really helped him. I thought he didn't have to battle as much. He could fly in. You know, he had that big put back dunk. Finished the game with 15 rebounds, 14 points. Didn't really have to, didn't stretch the floor. But then again, none of, none of the Thunder stretched the floor. They only hit three threes in the game. Again, when their big three has a game like this, it's tough for them to lose. And in particular when you get 20 off the bench from Alex Caruso, who is legitimately a six starter. I mean this is a team with seven starters, I think it's safe to say. And he just comes in and it's like, how do you get Alex Caruso more minutes?
- [11:45]
Andrew Schleck
Crusoe, like the Thunder aren't in this position. They're not even in the finals without Alex Crusoe. Let's just like make that clear. And they are, they are not in this position to win this game without him. I mean, he had five steals tonight. He had the 20 points. He had one of their three threes, which felt huge in the second half. Seven of nine from the field and just playing just outrageously aggressive basketball and like just being in the game from the jump and like that guy is he's maximizing who he is as a basketball player every second that he's on the court. I mean, it's pretty incredible what he's been able to accomplish in the way that he played tonight. But, yeah, they don't. They don't come close to winning this game without him. And I thought Chet, you know, Chet played really well on the boards, like you mentioned. He was great on the boards, but they were hunting him and specifically they were trying to get him onto Tyrese Haliburton at the end of the game. And they did successfully. And I thought he held up well enough, you know, like, he doesn't need to like, block his shot every time to like, be considered like a good defender. But like, I think it shows that one. The Thunder is super comfortable with switching and they're super comfortable with him as like their lone big, which they've shown as like their silver bullet. But like, I think that he, he did. He did well enough as, you know, add on switches and that helped the Thunder a ton know, to deliver this game.
- [13:14]
Dave Dufour
He's got the length and motor for it. I mean, this is one of the things with him, you know, coming up right. Like, this is the hope that he can turn into a guy. You're not going to ever want him on an island against A1, but he's going to be able to hang up and he's got the timing to let a guy like Halberton get past him and still get a block. And he had one of those in the game. I don't know. How are you feeling about the rest of the series? I asked Sampson the same question. I mean, to me, it's going to go seven. I. I think we're getting. Already got an all timer on our hands as far as, like, the quality of the basketball goes. This has been a great series, but I think we're going to get an actual all timer. I think we're going seven. I think it's going to be close.
- [13:54]
Andrew Schleck
Yeah, it feels like it. This feels a lot. It mirrors in so many ways the, the series that the Thunder played against Denver.
- [14:00]
Dave Dufour
Yeah.
- [14:01]
Andrew Schleck
You know, and now the Thunder have got to be. They've got to have a sigh of relief right now that they are going home for game five and it's two out of three and they have two out of those three at home. And so I think that they've. They've got to be really glad that that's. That that's where they're at today. Yeah, I think, I think it's going to go seven. I think Thunder win game five. I think Pacers win game six. I think it's back in OKC for game seven and I honestly think it's a toss up. I think that this Pacers team is legit and I think that this Thunder team is the more talented team. But some of this is coaching. You know Rick Carlisle is not going to be out coached. You know, I think the players will out. I think the Thunder outplayed the Pacers. I don't think they were out coached tonight. I thought I think there's the Shagel just Alexander was who he was and that's, that's what delivered this game. And the defense from Dort and Crusoe and Jet, you know, and J Dub helped them deliver this. But yeah, I think this is going long. I think that Game 7 in OKC is feels likely right now and just even thinking about it like just gives me goosebumps. Like it's going to be electric. Like the the two crowds have been incredible.
- [15:20]
Dave Dufour
Yeah.
- [15:21]
Andrew Schleck
For this series the teams have been incredible and I know the ratings aren't great but like man, if you just love basketball, this is a series for you.
- [15:30]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, I mean the ratings aren't great because again, Loss is on Netflix right now. I I don't know if everyone is like wrapped their head around this but you know, there's just too much stuff to watch. But anyway, this has been awesome. Andrew is finishing up like an hour and a half of podcasting almost as long as the game when Scott Foster's refereeing guys stick around. After the break, Samson Folk and I, we break down what happened for the Pacers that was good and what was bad.
- [16:04]
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- [17:10]
Samson Folk
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- [18:23]
Dave Dufour
The Indiana Pacers lost game four and they had the win in hand. Joining us from Indy, Samson folk. He teams up with Caitlin Clark to live stream and talk hoops over on basketball, she wrote. He also covers the draft because he covers covers the Raptors for Raptors Republic. He just kind of stuck doing that. Samson, how's it going man? How'd you enjoy being in Indy for for the finals?
- [18:50]
Caitlin Clark
I mean it's been a blast. The there's like an aura to India Indianapolis right now. Obviously everybody talks about how much this state loves basketball. I think that's patently true. And there's kind of been a buzz around the city, especially after winning game three. The crowd was probably the best I've ever heard in person. And I mean like the basketball has been phenomenal from both teams. They've both there's been punch counterpunch. You see it not just in the games but as it's resulted over the the corresponding series. So and all the quotes and everything reflects that too. Everybody here kind of understands that. I know everyone thought this might be a quick series, but everyone is prepared for it to be extremely long and to, you know, like the Thunder. They changed their starting lineup coming into this the series, and they changed it tonight and they didn't win with it. They won doing something else and switching chat out onto stuff and just having Shay go bananas in the fourth quarter. There is a bunch of punch and counter punch stuff going on here. It's been, it's been fantastic, man.
- [19:54]
Dave Dufour
I mean from a, from a tactical standpoint, it's been more like a Super bowl when you consider how many like lineups we're seeing, how many different adjustments we're seeing in game. I mean let's, let's focus in on game four. The Pacers controlled this game for, for the majority of it. It was really the first game that looked like they were going to have an easy win, not just a normal win like they had in game three, the first normal basketball game. It feels like they played a couple months. But what, what did you see out of them in the first three quarters that was working so well?
- [20:24]
Caitlin Clark
Well, honestly, starting with that double being lineup from OKC opened up a lot of offensive avenues that hadn't really been available to the Pacers. And you know, even, even with the double big, they were the Thunder. And in games past it felt like the Thunder were able to pressure the ball without relent and that was able to disrupt so much of what the Pacers do. And especially Tyrese Halberton, who his screen and roll stuff wasn't as accessible via because he was seeing switches. And that opened up a bunch of stuff. The ping pinging around the floor, the three point shooting. They started four or five and they still were scoring on cross matches with Pascal early. So all of that got them going, the double big lineup and then they kind of carried the energy in the juju going forward and, and then the fourth quarter, maybe they scored 17 points. Obviously the water got turned off, but it was good for three quarters. They figured it out.
- [21:17]
Dave Dufour
You know, the sneaky thing that happened to for me in the first three quarters was that the bench coming in for the Pacers didn't get that early second quarter run. That's where they really have won a lot of games. Even in the ones where they've come back, it has been the bench kind of getting this early second quarter push and, and they didn't have it in them tonight. You know, TJ McConnell didn't have a great game scoring OB. Obviously we'll talk about Matherin because he fell apart just completely down the stretch. But they just didn't get the kind of production that they've gotten in some of these wins to, to back up. You know, I mean, they, they were playing well with the starters, but then the bench was Just getting outplayed, I. I thought by okc, second unit. Let's talk about the fourth quarter because it's not often that we've seen the Pacers control a game going into the fourth, and it's not often we've seen the Pacers be retired in the fourth quarter. I mean, you mentioned it. They lose the fourth quarter by 14 points. You know, you only put up 17 points in the fourth quarter. It's hard to win a game. It's hard to close a game out. What happened? Was it just fatigue or did OKC make a big change?
- [22:24]
Caitlin Clark
So towards the end of the game, basically everything flattened out into trying to search for Shea or getting checked on a switch and they didn't score anything. And also you. You have to credit the Thunder maybe most of all for their ability to just play catch up and keep the ball not necessarily in front, but away from the dangerous areas of the court. Like when Tyrese is taking a three pointer and missing, when Miles is taking a three pointer and missing, when N. Smith is missing. It's just like you understand that the Pacers weren't loving the shots they were getting and that the Thunder were pretty comfortable playing aggressive catch up. And just like, we can look at.
- [23:01]
Dave Dufour
The shot chart, by the way, if you haven't seen the actual shot chart, it is disgusting.
- [23:07]
Caitlin Clark
Yeah. And I thought probably like something that the Pacers, when Caitlyn and I go through the film, what we'll probably suggest is more of the flat ball screens for Pascal, the inverted stuff. I thought he was pretty sublime tonight and in the series overall, that they could go to some of that stuff to guarantee paint touches, to guarantee more rotations that aren't just keeping the ball out in front of and what, like Pascal didn't touch the ball in the last three minutes or so and, and you know, it did just become a case of on one end. Shai scores 15 points over the course of the quarter, scores seven over three possessions to take the lead, and he's scoring in isolation. He can do that. Tyrese had a couple really great drives in flow and, you know, he beat a couple switches. But there were some stuff at the end of the game where it's like, if it's Tyrese versus a switch and Shave versus a switch, the Thunder are going to close that game out. And I think that was the real strength of it for the Thunder in their own stretch was they kept the ball in front or in their catch up, they kept the shot chart for the Pacers in a really nasty spot. And then Shai was awesome down the stretch. Like JDub carried for a large portion of the game. Shai was unbelievable. The shot making was on an unreal level. I heard this arena get extremely loud and then very quiet a lot of times on the fourth quarter. He was. He was sublime.
- [24:28]
Dave Dufour
Yeah. It seems like the Pacers, they. The. They allow the Thunder defense to, at times, just keep them floating out in no man's land. You know, Miles Turner sometimes comes up to set that ball screen really high up by the logo, and then Tyrese Halliburton just can't turn the corner on any of those guys with the way that the Thunder are moving. But typically that we've seen the Thunder a little worn out by the time you get to the fourth quarter, and that's when that stuff starts to happen and you do start to see Tyrese Halliburton and getting downhill, getting into floater range. I. I agree with you. I think more stuff for Pascal Siakam to close out this game and we would have seen a different outcome. I mean, he was cooking in the game. Doesn't get any of those pet elbow touches that he likes when. When things aren't dropping. I've started calling him the cooler when the other team gets hot. Right. Like, you think about it, he hits a big shot. So, you know, looking ahead a little bit to game five, how do they counteract what worked so well for the Thunder in the fourth quarter?
- [25:26]
Caitlin Clark
Yeah, I think it's. Honestly, it's a bit of reversion back to game three. And. And because what happens a lot of the time is because they want to set Tyrese loose and they want to get him catching handoffs with momentum, and they want him dribbling and making, you know, dort play, like ducking under screens and all that. But they probably don't look any better or they look their best when Pascal is coming up to catch near the elbow, flashing there and running like basically triangle concepts with him there, because Pascal is far more dangerous with a live dribble than Turner is. And while it doesn't exactly run straight pick and roll, you can run a lot of get actions, you can run a lot of dribble handoff stuff. And most importantly, maybe you can run split action with Tyrese Halberton presenting a lot of problems as a shooter. And Pascal is perfectly capable of punishing with a live dribble if they play off of him or just like making reads as a passer. And he's perfectly fine as a screener, too. So I think that was a missed opportunity and probably something we'll see more of in game five.
- [26:27]
Dave Dufour
What do you think about more Pascal at the five? I mean it has not been the best Miles Turner series. He's had some incredible defensive plays, I, I'd say and of course he's hit a few shots here and there. But what do you think about seeing more Pascal and, and Obi toppin as, as your bigs?
- [26:44]
Caitlin Clark
I think, well, I think probably the thing that's most difficult for them in that regard is, is that Pascal, I mean you obviously watch the game and most people listen will have the four steals in the first quarter. He had six stops maybe in the first half and a lot of that was that he got to be both an at the level player going up to the, to the screen and also being in the shadows as like the low man. He was able to provide so much help and he can't really do both on a possession and give you that versatility if he's not out there with one of OB or Miles as well. So it might, if they like they could do it and they could find something else. But as far as like when I'm thinking about it it might put them or pigeonhole them into one look defensively for too long. Maybe it really is just about Rick being able to I guess pull the dial or the lever at the right time for a good two or three minute stretch. But there might be something there, but we'll see.
- [27:40]
Dave Dufour
It's hard, honestly, it's been hard to tell with, with Rick Carlisle when it comes to who he's going to finish with between Obi and Miles Turner. I mean there was a game where I definitely thought he was close with Miles Turner and they close with Obi toppin and then he did the opposite and Miles Turner winds up being huge down the stretch. So I've pretty much learned at this point you can't second guess Rick Carlisle. You know, maybe one of the best coaches to ever do it. You got a prediction for the rest of the series? I, I, I feel like it's going to go seven.
- [28:08]
Caitlin Clark
I, if it goes seven, I'll, I'll give the Pacers that that crazy variance.
- [28:14]
Dave Dufour
Game and destiny vibe stuff.
- [28:17]
Caitlin Clark
Yeah, yeah, I, I've been calling it the, the mandate of Heaven to ordained by God Chinese government. And when I was on Andrew's podcast down to Dunk, I said I thought it would be either okc in 6 or pacers and 7. So I gotta go pacers in 7 and that would be a hell of a series, man, it's already been a.
- [28:38]
Dave Dufour
Amazing finals as far as I'm concerned. The basketball's been really good. I mean, every single game has been compelling, so it's been a lot of fun. Guys, go and check him out. He does a really good job with with Caitlin Cooper over at Basketball she wrote. They do film breakdowns. They go a little bit deeper into the X's and O's. So you know, for all the talk that there's no good media out there educating people on the X's and O's of basketball, shout out to Samson and Caitlin for the good job that they do. So thank you for that. Thanks to Andrew Schleck for joining me earlier. Thank you guys for listening for everybody. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us. Sam.
- [29:40]
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- [30:05]
Samson Folk
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- [30:11]
Dave Dufour
Which is why we're so excited to tell y' all about the new Lamellar Gloss collection from the girlies at Tresemme.
- [30:18]
Samson Folk
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