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- [00:01]
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- [01:14]
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- [01:43]
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- [02:32]
John Krasinski
Welcome to the basketball 100 podcast. This is a podcast based on the book written by many of us here at the Athletic. We're here to count down the top 100 players in NBA history and discuss and debate their place in the league's hierarchy. I'm your host, John Krasinski. I cover the Minnesota Timberwolves for us here at the Athletic, and with me today is J. King in Boston, Kelly Eco in Houston, both compadres at the Athletic. How's it going this morning, boys?
- [03:01]
J. King
It's beautiful, baby. Any day I can see your face.
- [03:04]
Kelly Eco
Is just cjk, man, you to go.
- [03:07]
J. King
You're ready to go.
- [03:08]
John Krasinski
Come on, man.
- [03:09]
Kelly Eco
You're really to go. We got to give you your flowers, bro. And Father's Day just passed. You and J, happy belated Father's Day.
- [03:14]
John Krasinski
Oh, there we go. Appreciate that. Let's. Let's get mad at each other. Let's, let's have an argument, let's have a debate, let's yell and scream and, and see what we come up with here. But, you know, this is a whole thing where we're designed to just kind of break the, the, the top 100, the basketball 100 into chunks, kind of break it down piece by piece. Our subject today are players 5 through 19 on this list, and I'm just going to run them out for the readers right now, just to set the scene for us. Here we have at 19, we have Moses Malone, 18 Kevin Garnett, 17, 17 Carl Malone, 16 Jerry West, 15 Dr. J, 14 Kevin Durant, 13 Oscar Robertson, 12 Steph Curry, 11 Hakeem Elijahan, 10, Kobe Bryant, 9 Larry Bird, 8 Tim Duncan, 7 Shaquille O', Neal, 6 Wilt Chamberlain, and 5, Magic Johnson. And so I think the way to kick this off, guys, is I, I, it's just a good start. Which player on this grouping do you most find the most joy or excitement? That just comes to mind when you read this list. You, you see that name and it's like, all right, I'm ready to go. Kelly. What? Why don't you start us off here? Which one gets you going here?
- [04:31]
Kelly Eco
I, I think it's, it's, it's someone that's been, his name has been popping up recently, and that's Kevin Durant. I, I think for me, I was happy because anytime these lists come out, we're reminded of that these dudes actually play basketball for a living. That the social media stuff and all the antics, all that stuff is cool. But when it comes down to brass tacks, these, these guys are them dudes. And I think KD oftentimes gets, I want to say maligned or disregarded because of everything. He's, he's so present online. But this is one of the greatest basketball players that ever walk this planet. And I think even at being 13 off that list, I think he's 12. 12 or 13, I still think that's a little bit low, but I do think that it's, it's an honor to be awarded or, or just seen for his achievements for over 17 years. And you really don't see guys over the course of their career average that 45th that 5049 threshold. And he's averaged that for 17 seasons. So I do think that, you know, KD is just a future hall of Famer, obviously, but he's just a good guy, good character. And I think these lists are a reminder of why these guys are so special and why we love the game so much.
- [05:51]
John Krasinski
Yeah, Kelly, I mean, you hit at the sort of the crux of our book. And you know, all of us here at the Athletic, when we're covering this league, we are covering the personalities, we're covering the drama, we're covering all of that stuff. But I feel like the basketball 100 as a project, as a product really does just. Let's dive into the hoops of it. Let's get to what happened on the court, on the in, during the games. And if you do take some of the drama out of the KD story, even though I'm, you know, I'm fine with those things that are surrounding him. I mean, just the purest Hoopers. Hooper is Kevin Durant. And it's, I mean, it's, that's a great way to kick things off. What do you think about that, Jay?
- [06:35]
J. King
Yeah, that, that's fantastic. The one that made me happy was, was Shaq. And, and because I think it's so hard to place Shaq on a rankings list because if you look at the accomplishments, he only had one mvp. He didn't have as many championships as obviously the Bill Russell's or Michael Jordan or anybody like that. He had a bunch of them, though. But like when you lived through the Shaq era, there was nobody more dominant and there was nobody who could guard him. Everybody was just in absolute hell against Shaquille o'. Neal. You look in, you know, the, the finals, he was averaging like 35 and 15 and, and, and you look, you look back at how dominant he was when it really, really mattered. And I, I think it's just so hard to place him because of that combination, because he wasn't always in great shape. Like there were times he did coast throughout his career and, but like that peak, Shaq at his highest, I don't know that there was a more unstoppable player. So I was happy to see him on, on the one that, that I'm discussing just because I think his place will, will promote debate here.
- [08:00]
John Krasinski
Yeah. And I mean, I think when I, when I think about Shaq, definitely penalized because he was so big and strong and I mean because I do think that he was so athletic, so overpowering, that it was always, when you watched him, if there was a knock against him, not even in the later years, but even in the earlier years, it was like, well, of course this is what he does. Like this, he's supposed to do this. When really I think that there wasn't enough appreciation in the moment about the combination of quickness, size, strength, athleticism, even some touch around the basket. I think he got, you know, kind of overlooked in a lot of those things just because of his sheer size. And we just did not appreciate what we had right in front of us.
- [08:46]
J. King
And you look at the, the three championships that he, the first three championships that he won the three peat with the Lakers in the Finals in 2000, he averaged 38 points and 16.7 rebounds against the Pacers. And that Pacers team was like Rick Smith, really good. The Davis's, they weren't just really good, they were huge. And they were built to some extent to combat Shaq. It should have been tough for him. And there was nothing anybody could do. The next year, 33 points and 15.8 rebounds against Philly, which had Dikembe Mutombo, which had a bunch of other sides, which had one of the best defenses in the league, if not the best defense in the league that year and then a year later against the Nets, 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds. Like his peak, that three year peak in the finals. Has anybody ever played basketball better?
- [09:42]
John Krasinski
I don't think so, no. No, no. And, and, and you guys, maybe this might be slightly before your time. I'm a little bit older than both of you, but the Shaq Orlando jersey, the year that he was drafted, I mean, the highest selling thing, I was in the middle school at the time and it was the thing to have. You could not wear another basketball jersey. You had to get the Shaq one. And I mean the, the black pinstripe Orlando Magic 32. It was just iconic.
- [10:16]
Kelly Eco
And, and I, I think, you know, going back to what Jay said about the three year peak, that's, that's kind of what the crux of these lists are. People trying to remember when were these guys at their peak powers. How does that compare to other guys? And you look at Shaq, I think even the way he talks about physicality in today's game, you can see that his brain is still in that era in terms of he expected guys like Dwight to dominate. I remember the TNT show where he tried to break down what Dwight should do every quarter and it sounded so simple in his brain because that's how he was played and that's how he was wired, but that's really how he approached the game. Like this was a brute force with a ton of skill. I know everyone's seen the all star clip of him and MJ and he. There's a twin, twin crossover spin. It looks so effortless at the seventh quarter at that size. But Shaq was a dominant force. And, and I think a lot of times because he's so goofy and funny online, people forget that. But this guy was immense.
- [11:14]
John Krasinski
Yeah, the, the beatings that he took as well in the post was like, I mean you had guys taking two by fours to his back and you just weren't getting the calls because they were just bouncing right off of them. It was incredible. Yep. I'm gonna take my, my, my selection is closer to home as a Minnesota guy. I'm taking kg. He's at, he's hanging on by a thread here at number 18. But when I think of players who gave you your money's worth as a fan, when you bought a ticket to, to, to watch Kevin Garnett play, there was never a night off. There was never a night where he was not worked into a complete lather and sweat before the game even started. Maybe you know, one of the top two, three, four defensive players to ever play the game. I really believe just with his versatility, his ability to guard multiple positions. And when you look at what he was able to do even before Boston where he won his championship, but even in Minnesota, he took a team that was consistently under talented in the Western Conference and got them in the playoffs every single year. They, they only made it to the Western Conference finals one year, but he was carrying those teams and kind of like a, a, a the start of the evolution of the game in terms of being able, a big man, being able to Dribble handle, knock down a shot from the outside, go into the post, pass it. Just do everything that you could. Kevin Garnett, that's my guy here, you.
- [12:53]
Kelly Eco
See him differently because of, um. So imagine an alternate scenario where he doesn't win that championship in Boston. What is his impact for you? Is it still the same or, or how do you see that trajectory panning out if he never wins in Boston?
- [13:09]
John Krasinski
So, I mean, I'm sure that his, the, the championship helps his perception among the greater basketball community. He's probably not number 18 if he doesn't have a championship right now on our list. In terms of a guy who grew up in Minnesota watching him, who knows that really there are no Timberwolves without Kevin Garnett. I think he would still be cemented for me personally in, you know, a top 20, 25 players of all time list, just because I saw day in and day out, the impact. But I do think for much of his, the first 12 years of his career before he was traded, he was sort of kind of overlooked. I mean, he got plenty of accolades and all NBAs and things like that, but he wasn't viewed in the same tier as some of the other guys that were around him in his contemporaries until he got to Boston and then really showed that, hey, you know, on a big stage, he was a. He was ready and willing and able to. To do just as much as he did for the Wolves as well.
- [14:13]
J. King
He's one of those guys, if you place him somewhere else, where he won more and had better teammates next to him. His whole career. I think he's looked at totally differently because I'm with John. Nobody in his peak, like, defended better. Like, you can say maybe Bill Russell. There are a few other guys in league history who have the defensive resume, but at his peak, he was so disruptive, he could guard literally anybody and. And did it with an intensity on every single possession that lifted up every single person in that organization. So I think if. If you. If he was drafted to San Antonio, how differently does that go? You know, and that's always the. The question to me is like, if he was in Tim Duncan situation, how differently would we think of Kevin Garnett? How differently will we think of Tim Duncan if he was on Minnesota? Conversely. So it's. It's a fascinating discussion and one that we'll never have an answer to, but the intensity that KG brought, it's incredible to me that he had the longevity that he had that he played. I think it was 20 seasons in the NBA because to get himself to the place that he went every single.
- [15:31]
John Krasinski
Game, every single practice, a maniac and.
- [15:35]
J. King
Stay that locked in for 20 years is crazy to me. You would think that at some point that guy would, would mentally just lose focus and, and he never did. And he was just the ultimate competitor the whole time he was in the league.
- [15:49]
John Krasinski
It was the ultimate conversation here in Minnesota during those years when he was first round and out. I think it was eight in a row before they broke through. Wolves fans would say, well, yeah, you put him in San Antonio. If you just swapped places with Tim Duncan, he would have just as much success. And you know, I don't want to short Duncan on that because I do think that Duncan is a player that we can talk about right now a little bit as, you know, as the years go on and as he sort of stays quiet within himself and doesn't go out and promote himself and doesn't do last dances and, and things like that. I think people forget about just how incredible that he was. But that was a constant debate here in Minnesota about well, yeah, you know, yes, Duncan is great, but put KG on that team with Manu and Parker and, and, and Popovich and, and you're seeing exactly the same thing from the Spurs. I don't know the answer to that, but it surely is a, you know, a really interesting conversation to think about in a great. What if, if you just swap those two guys and you know, what would Duncan do in Minnesota? What would KG do there?
- [16:56]
Kelly Eco
I think the one thing that you said about the getting himself into character, I compared to Heath Ledger as the joker. Yeah, like just he did that for 20 years and like it's hard to replicate that amount of. He, he was his own culture. G was his own culture. And, and the people that, that played with him, they kind of absorbed themselves into that culture like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, like those guys, they bought into the KG experience and I think it must have been great for someone like you to live. Have lived through that in Minnesota and seeing the effect he had on an entire town, entire area and just seeing like the greatness that he was. How that was exemplified on both ends of the floor because some of these guys on the list, they weren't all two way players but KG was one of those rare combinations of, you know, defense, offense and just having that even the playmaker, he was an underrated playmaker as well. Like it wasn't, it doesn't get talked about as much, but he was a complete basketball player. So I do think that going to Boston obviously helped him with his accolades, but even if he stayed in Minnesota, he would have been on that Mount Rushmore of legends over there. So it's good for him.
- [18:12]
John Krasinski
Yep. The temperature changed in the room as soon as he walks in. Like, I mean, he's one of those dudes.
- [18:17]
J. King
I can remember covering him. And literally, like, when he would walk in, everyone would stop talking.
- [18:22]
John Krasinski
Yes.
- [18:23]
J. King
Like, teammates would stop talking, reporters would stop talking. Everybody in that room would just, like, shut up. Especially before a game. Everybody knew, just don't get in kg. Do not speak around kg.
- [18:36]
John Krasinski
Yep, yep. You walked around on eggshells. But then after the game, when you sat down and talked with him about the game, there's no better interview. Like, just charismatic, intelligent, like, really got into it. Like, it was a super. You know, it was an education every time you talk to him. And he wore his heart on his sleeve, and so it. It was awesome stuff to be. To be around him a little bit, for sure.
- [19:01]
J. King
He was one of my favorite players growing up. And I remember the interview with John Thompson.
- [19:06]
John Krasinski
Yes. Unbelievable.
- [19:08]
J. King
The Timberwolves were having a down year, and he, like, started crying during the middle of the interview.
- [19:15]
John Krasinski
It was like, I'm losing Legendary.
- [19:17]
J. King
I'm losing John.
- [19:18]
John Krasinski
Yeah.
- [19:19]
J. King
Or we're losing John.
- [19:20]
John Krasinski
Yeah. Yeah.
- [19:21]
J. King
And he was just, like, weeping, and Thompson was like, it's okay to cry or whatever he said. And it was just the perfect, perfect illustration of just how much Kevin Garnett cared.
- [19:32]
Kelly Eco
We don't have that.
- [19:33]
J. King
Not about his individual stuff, but just all he cared about was team success, and he played that way. He was never a guy who wanted to go out and get 30, 40, cared about that. It was, what can I do to lift my team? What can I do in every possession to help the guys around me? And he played like that for 20 years with the intensity. It was just borderline insane.
- [19:52]
John Krasinski
Yeah. So the three of us are coming up in sort of the same era. Kelly's a little bit younger, but I wanted to take the next step here and talk about on this list, who is one guy that you wish you could have seen a lot live here, that you could have been either in the locker rooms or just even watching games, you know, when they were in their prime. There's a bunch of the older guys here on this list that neither. That none of us. None of us were around for, like, in the. You know, in the prime of it. So Kelly. Kelly, who's a. Who's a. Who's a guy that you look at, say, damn, I wish. Larry Bird.
- [20:31]
Kelly Eco
Yeah, without a doubt. I just think when you have for more or less a white guy that is so self confident and can back it up with this game and can shut everybody on the court up. When you had that amount of just the optionality with his game, like he was sizable shooter, passer, defender, like he was everything that you wanted in a wing player, a perimeter player. And to have been in that era, obviously Jay is close to there. So I wish I could have been in those locker rooms during those playoff runs, during the games against Magic, those, those epic. Like just being around for that run. I feel like from a distance, having gone back and watched those games, it looked legendary. So I can only imagine me as a reporter being around that cover now. Like talking to him after games, before games and practices, picking his brain. I think that that's the biggest part of why we love covering this sport. The ability to pick these players brains and chat outside of the game at times and step outside and talk to them as men. I do think that that's also a part I've come to appreciate. But having been able to, if I would have been able to witness those things live, I think that would have been a really big benefit to my life. So I regret that.
- [21:58]
John Krasinski
Jay, can you imagine Larry Bird in the social media era and just like, just like what could have gone ugly for him?
- [22:06]
Kelly Eco
Imagine, imagine Larry and KG in the same locker room.
- [22:09]
John Krasinski
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Just like all the sound bites, like all the highlights, all, all of that stuff. It had been incredible.
- [22:16]
J. King
He would have the Anthony Edwards allure where.
- [22:19]
John Krasinski
That's right.
- [22:19]
J. King
Where he could say whatever he wants and it's just so cool that everyone is.
- [22:23]
Kelly Eco
He'll take the fine.
- [22:29]
J. King
Yeah. I mean Larry, some of the stuff you'd probably be like, like he got in a fight, I think it was in the finals. Right. And.
- [22:37]
John Krasinski
Yeah.
- [22:37]
J. King
And hurt his hand. It's like if that happened today, he would have got crucified for it.
- [22:43]
John Krasinski
Yep.
- [22:44]
J. King
And. And instead it kind of went. Went under the radar and nobody really cared. And everyone thinks of him as the greatest competitor, which he was. But it's, it's another example of just how scrutinized today's athletes are compared to the guys of that generation.
- [23:00]
John Krasinski
Yeah, I remember. So I'm 46, so I was coming up and watching the league just as Larry was sort of transitioning into the very back end of his career and moving out. And one real visceral memory I do have of seeing him on the floor was they Were playing the Pacers in the playoffs and it was like a duel with Chuck Person and Larry fell in the first half and hit his head on the court and was bleeding and got taken out of the game. Comes back in the game and just starts drilling threes and, and, and willing the Celtics back into it. And I, I can't remember, I might have been nine years old at the time or eight years old and my dad is, was a big Celtics fan at the time because the Wolves were not even in the league fairly just yet. So. And, and even then it's just like, man, this guy is just completely different. So to see him in, you know, 84 and just like at the peak of his powers, that would have been an incredible experience.
- [23:56]
Kelly Eco
Yeah.
- [23:56]
John Krasinski
Yeah.
- [23:57]
J. King
Three straight MVPs, like, just ridiculous. I grew up, my, my cousins who I idolized, my older cousins, they love Larry Bird. One of them named his dog lb. But they used to have me watching all the, the old Larry Bird tapes. They had highlights. Oh like the highlights. They had his top four games on like. Yeah, VHS. And so they would have me watch the 60 point outing against the Hawks over and over again and have me watch like the Hawks on the bench going crazy because Larry Bird was hitting such tough shots against them and like that. That respect from opponents is rare and not many guys get it. And Larry was a showman for sure.
- [24:44]
John Krasinski
Jay, who's your pick?
- [24:45]
J. King
My pick? I would love to see Dr. J, man. Like I, I feel like I don't totally grasp his impact and if when you look at the accolades that he had, they're just kind of ridiculous. He, he was the, the three time MVP in the ABA. He was an 11 time NBA all star. He was four time all ABA first team and then five time all NBA first team. He was an MVP in the NBA on top of his three ABA MVPs. Like, and I feel like, I feel like he doesn't often get talked with like the greatest of the greats, but just the way he played, the style he played, obviously the, the one handed like underneath the basketball. I just wish I had a better appreciation for his great because I do feel like sometimes he gets lost in the shuffle a little bit more than he should. And he also played at UMass, which is right down the road from where I grew up. Like if I was in his prime, I would have been going to the, the Curry Hicks cage which seats like 3,000 people and would have been nuts to be there for, for Dr. J, I'm sure. So yeah, Dr. J, for me Is like, I, I just. Because I want to know more about what made him special. Obviously you can see the highlights and all that, but I feel like a lot of the other guys on this list get talked about all the time, whereas Dr. J doesn't get probably enough respect today.
- [26:24]
John Krasinski
Yeah, I mean, another part about it is I do think like as the analysis of the league has become a little more analytically inclined and you look at efficiency and you look at kind of some of those numbers, maybe, maybe Dr. J's stats don't exactly measure up quite as much to some of just the all time greats. And so he does get diminished. But if you talk to anybody who was around for those days, it wasn't just what he did on the court, which was, he was incredible, an incredible player, but the crown that he wore on his head in the early days of basketball becoming a national entity, professional basketball at least I think separates him and does have to be factored into the discussion around him as a, an influencer, as a, as a kind of guy on the forefront of bringing this league to a point where it could get to Magic and, and, and Larry and Michael and, and really take off. I mean, he was the icon for the game for such a long time and, you know, such a presence about him that I just don't think that part of the conversation can be understated when you think about what Dr. J meant to the game at, you know, at large here.
- [27:43]
Kelly Eco
I think he won the Walter Kennedy Award. Right. For his humanitarian efforts and just the important aspect of giving back to the game and transcending the game, going beyond it in terms of community and how that affects charitable, you know, acts and just being a kind person away from basketball. And I think people, if you talk about today's game and even in today's society, the way, you know, other players are talked about, going back to what Jay said, he's not always brought up like that. And part of that might be because they almost try to reduce his highlights to, you know, the crazy one hand underarm of the duck. But Dr. J's game was smoother than that. He was a smooth operator. And I do think that platforms like this, you know, are great for giving him his flowers because a lot of places they just let me into, oh, he was the king of highlights. He was the king of like. But he was, he was so much bigger than that. And I think it's important to shine the light on that.
- [28:46]
John Krasinski
Absolutely. I mean, just an incredibly influential person on and off the court and, and like I. I still. My favorite thing. You know, we saw the. The. That documentary on. On Dr. J where he's dunking at 60 years old, like, throwing that down. I mean, it's just like, it's. It's insane when you think about it. And I've, like, I've just been. I don't know if you guys. I've been around him. I've. I've only said hello to him once or twice, but another guy that, like, when he is walking into the room, it's just like. Well, there's the.
- [29:18]
Kelly Eco
Almost like presidential. Yeah, he's like the most revered guy ever.
- [29:22]
J. King
They say aura a lot these days, but he had.
- [29:25]
John Krasinski
Yeah, he had a lot. Unbelievable. Yep. So just unbelievable swagger, all of that stuff. Just fantastic for Dr. J. Okay, so let's get to a little bit of probably the red meat of this conversation first. Let me give. Give me my guy. My guy's Oscar Robertson. Just in terms of. When you look at his numbers, they almost don't even make sense. Like, as a rookie, he's 30.5 points. Yeah. Like, and it's. It's 30 and 11. You know, when Westbrook was coming up and. And he averaged a triple double almost for the first three years of his career, I. I can't even really understand what it was like, so I just want to be a part of that and see it up close and see what it looked like game in and game out, how he controlled games, what he did. And, and because these numbers that are. You pull up on his basketball reference literally just blow your mind. They're like, wilt like numbers where it's just. There's no possible way that that could happen. But he just dominated in a. In a. In a way on all three levels. Scoring, rebounding, assisting. That. That just was unfathomable to me. So to be around him and watch him, how he operated, what. How he fit, what. What he did, and that was so much different than anyone had been doing it before he came around. I just think that a trailblazer like that I want to see and want to experience.
- [31:05]
J. King
He averaged 30.5 points, 10.1 rebounds and 9.7 assists as a rookie. As a rookie, man, as a rookie, like, that's just stupid. It's unfathomable.
- [31:17]
John Krasinski
And back then, when, you know you were. You were a real man. Like, you. You weren't. You know, this wasn't one and done like, these were grown men on teams, you know, on a very stacked rosters everywhere, because there's only so few Teams like all of that. It was. It was amazing.
- [31:35]
Kelly Eco
Yeah.
- [31:37]
J. King
Just ridiculous.
- [31:37]
Kelly Eco
Great.
- [31:42]
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- [32:12]
Paige - Giggly Squad Co-host
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- [33:13]
Kelly Eco
Comcast Business High Five Hotline.
- [33:14]
John Krasinski
I signed my business up for the five year price lock guarantee and I can't stop high fiving people.
- [33:20]
Kelly Eco
That's perfectly natural when you sign up for gig speed, Internet and advanced security locked in at a great rate for five years.
- [33:26]
J. King
Really?
- [33:27]
John Krasinski
That's great news. High five, everybody.
- [33:28]
Kelly Eco
The Comcast business 5 year price lock guarantee is back, but only for a limited time sign up today.
- [33:34]
John Krasinski
High five ends 92125 for new customers with qualifying bundle. Current customer eligibility varies by service and area. Guaranteed rate applies to monthly service charge excluding taxes and fees. Other restrictions apply. All right, so now, yeah, now let's get to the red meat here. Who do you guys look at this list and say, that guy is too high. He's just not magic.
- [34:12]
Kelly Eco
Magic Johnson. You can start. We can. We can cut it out.
- [34:16]
John Krasinski
All right.
- [34:17]
J. King
Holy cow.
- [34:20]
John Krasinski
Make the case.
- [34:24]
J. King
So who's above him?
- [34:26]
Kelly Eco
Shaq. Shaq Shaq is above. Shaq is above him. Tim Duncan is above him. For me, you could make the argument for Hakeem, Steph.
- [34:36]
John Krasinski
So you're putting him like down around 10.
- [34:39]
J. King
I'm putting him like nine falls out of the top 75.
- [34:45]
Kelly Eco
And let me preface this by saying like yes, Magic Johnson, the sheer archetype of his player, the jumbo guard that could do it all. I think that is a supreme skill set and there is a reason why he has. He's one of the most decorated players to ever grace this planet. I just think of going back to what Jay said about dominance. When you look at Shaq's peak, when you look at Tim Duncan's peak, when you look at Hakeem's peak, you could even argue Steph, maybe. I think that if you have to win one basketball game, are you taking peak Magic or are you taking peak Shaq? I'm taking peak Shaq. I'm taking peak Tim. I'm taking peak Hakeem. I might take peak Kobe. But. But you know, this is not a slight at Magic because it sounds like.
- [35:43]
John Krasinski
A slight at Magic.
- [35:43]
J. King
This is absolutely, I want you to know this is absolutely a slight at Mag.
- [35:49]
Kelly Eco
I'm still calling you a top 10 player of all time. I mean it's not, I'm not. I understand that it's going to be seen as a slight and I apologize.
- [35:57]
John Krasinski
Halliburton right now over. Over Magic?
- [36:00]
J. King
No.
- [36:08]
Kelly Eco
But yeah, I just think that I would just take me personally, I would take Shaq over him. So Maybe, maybe he's 7 on all time list and instead of 5th or 8th, but that's just me for me.
- [36:22]
J. King
I got to defend Magic here. I got to defend Magic here.
- [36:27]
Derek Clason
He.
- [36:27]
J. King
Other than his rookie year, he received MVP votes in every season of his career. He was top eight in MVP voting for 10 straight years. He came back after being out of the league for four years and received MVP votes in his return year.
- [36:47]
Kelly Eco
He was great, this dude. He was great.
- [36:49]
J. King
He was a three time MVP. He averaged 11.2 assists for his career as a 6, 9 bruising force who by the way also played center in his rookie year in the biggest game of the season and had. What was it, 42, 15 and something. Yep, Magic was ridiculous. Magic Kelly should never be allowed to say Magic's name again in his life.
- [37:14]
John Krasinski
I love it.
- [37:15]
Kelly Eco
I'm putting himself. Kevin. I'm, I'm, I'm taking Shaq. I'm sorry, I'm taking Shaq. If I gotta win one game, I.
- [37:22]
John Krasinski
Don'T know, Magic's peak is he's the best point guard of all time. Like, like that's, that's to me what he is like. But I mean, hey, this is what the debate is. I love it. Like, this is, this is good conversation because I, I would tell you, like I looked at this entire list and did I think Magic Johnson was coming out of your mouth? Kelly? No, I did not definitely. But that's great, man. But yeah, I think, I mean I think Magic is, I still think you could say maybe Steph is pushing him for greatest point guard of all time. I think that. But I think Magic is still number one. Am I? Let's just in terms of all of the things that he was able to do, all of the winning that he did with the Lakers, you know, all sorts of different roles that he played. I mean, just an incredible play player. But hey, that's, this is, this is what this is about.
- [38:16]
Kelly Eco
I want to hear yours.
- [38:17]
John Krasinski
So yeah, so for mine, the two.
- [38:19]
J. King
High, I'm still stunned. I don't recover from that one.
- [38:24]
John Krasinski
It's great. That's great. Don't mind my. Too high probably I think is going to be. I think it's Karl Malone right now at 17. I don't think he's the top 20 player of all time. Incredible longevity, unbelievable success with the Jazz, scored, you know, as, as well as most anybody in his era. But I just look at a lot of the guys around him, KG Moses, Jerry West, Dr. JKD, Oscar Robertson and then some of the guys behind him that we will get to here a little bit later in the conversation. I just think that that's a spot that I look at as a player of like. No, not quite there. I think there's going to be other guys that deserve that spot. And I just think that a little bit more of kind of. He was such a blue collar workman like guy piled up stats over years and years and years and credit to him for all of his longevity. But I don't think He's a top 20 player of all time.
- [39:31]
Kelly Eco
That's fair. Do you. I know a guy that's not on this list that people might argue for Karl Malone, but the Joker. Would you take. Is there an argument for the Joker over Karl Malone?
- [39:46]
John Krasinski
I think there is right now. You know, he's got a title, he's got all the MVPs. And I think that I, you know, Joker is coming to a place where he's going to not only be bum rushed in the top 20, but he's getting up into the top 15 or more if he keeps this up. I mean, the, what he is doing at this level consistently and what he does with the talent around him, I think is outrageous. And so I think there's him, Giannis, there's a few guys that we can talk about getting into that, but Joker, I think is the guy that I would put there right away and then just see where he finishes, you know, on this list, you know, five or six years down the road. Jay?
- [40:31]
J. King
Yeah, I'm, I'm with you 100%. Joker should be in this top 19. I think even if you revoted, I don't even know who decided the top hundred for our book, but even if they revoted now, which is like a couple years after the list was put together, I think he would be in the top 20. I think he would threaten to be top 15. The consistency he's had year after year after year, just nobody can stop the guy. And he's just an offense by himself that lifts up everyone around him. And yeah, I think Giannis, Giannis too, yes. Like, just the ruthlessness, the relentlessness that he plays with year after year. He hasn't had much playoff success after the championship, which, which could limit eventually his ranking. His ranking. Right. But when you look at the stats he's put up year after year and really the supporting cast that he's carried, I think obviously they've run out of talent there the last couple of years. Giannis and Joker, they deserve to be on this list, but it's so hard to take somebody off this list. And as I was, as I was thinking about who's too high, who's too low, I'm like, man, these guys are all incredible. They're all so great. Like, there's, there's really not much differ between many of these guys on the list. I, I do not envy whoever had to put these rankings together. And, and I didn't have too much of a strong feeling that, like, somebody was totally out of place. Although Joker, like, he, he's coming for much higher on the list, and I think he was 28th in our list. He, he's coming for way higher than that.
- [42:12]
John Krasinski
Yeah. And important, like, that's important. Context for this conversation, Jay, is that this list was compiled a couple of years ago. We, we, we published the book. Of course it's going to be an evolving document. Things are going to change. And, and really, in the last couple of years is where you've seen Joker kind of transcend from an excellent player to an all time level player here with these MVPs that he's stacking up with what he's doing just like statistics wise and efficiency wise and all of those things. And so, yeah, if we were to redo this list today, I'm sure that, that he would find that top 20. Maybe Moses drops out. Maybe it's KG, maybe it's Malone. I think it's probably one of those bottom three guys, but that's what I kind of look at. Any. Anybody on this list that you think is too low? Where, where we are in. In the, in the 5 through 19 range. You, Kelly, Maybe you want to go with Shaq here or. I don't know. What.
- [43:09]
Kelly Eco
No, I think, I mean, seven is, Seven is good.
- [43:12]
John Krasinski
Seven's good, right? Yeah.
- [43:13]
Kelly Eco
Seven is good, too.
- [43:16]
Derek Clason
Low.
- [43:17]
Kelly Eco
You know, honestly, I think this list is pretty good. Maybe you could argue Hakeem might be low, but other than that, like, I understand the argument for Steph.
- [43:32]
John Krasinski
Yeah.
- [43:33]
Kelly Eco
But I think this list got it pretty right. I think they, they. They got it pretty, pretty close. How about you, Jay?
- [43:40]
J. King
I think Steph deserves to be at least one spot higher.
- [43:44]
Kelly Eco
Okay.
- [43:44]
J. King
Like I said, I didn't have much of a problem with this list. I think it was well put together. But Steph. Maybe it's just living through the Steph era and, and seeing what he did for his team, seeing how he totally changed the entire game of basketball, seeing the championships that he put up, covering him in the finals, when a Celtics defense that was one of the best in a while had nothing they could do with him and just totally tried everything and at the end of the day, just couldn't. Couldn't hold up against Stephen Curry and, And lost against him. I think his ability to. To do it like, like he started winning championships in 2015 to come back after all the injuries, after getting older, after losing Kevin Durant coming back with Andrew Wiggins as your third best player probably, and winning a title, like, I just think when all is said and done, his impact on the game is undeniable. And I think throughout this era, he's probably even been, to me, underrated. Like, for all the, for all the championships he's won, for all the MVPs he's won, I just feel like it's. It's hard to measure the impact he has on every player around him, because at every moment of every game he has played in the last decade, everyone on the other side has been petrified of him, of leaving him open. And what that does for all your teammates is, Is so important. And like, even when he doesn't play well, I think, like, to me, the Andre Iguodala Finals MVP was a joke, an absolute joke. Iggy was incredible in that finals. He held LeBron to, like, what was it, 35? And I say that with all due.
- [45:47]
John Krasinski
Respect, because LeBron was.
- [45:49]
J. King
Was ridiculous. But. But to me, it's like, even when Steph wasn't having a great game, what he did was why they won, what he. What he was was why they won. And, And I, I just think he should be higher on this list. Not much higher. Like, all the guys in front of him are ridiculous, but I think you could argue that. That he should be above some of the guys in front of him.
- [46:16]
Kelly Eco
John, question for you about going back to the Finals mvp. How. How much stock do you put on an award that's voted on by basically, like, seven people?
- [46:25]
John Krasinski
It's hard. Yeah, it's a good point, Kelly. It's hard to. To do, but it's also kind of like one of the barometers that stands the test of time. Like, you know, whether you. The Finals vote, MVP vote from 1978 or. Or 2024, like, that is a marker that you can put down, you know, on an era is like, okay, here's what this guy did at the biggest stage in his era. And like, it's hard to compare the games, you know, on the floor because it's. They're so different from now to the 90s and the 80s and. And the 70s. Like, the game has evolved to such a different degree that it's almost harder to compare players, but you can see where they stood within their respective eras. And so I do look at it and give it weight, but it's. It is difficult when you know that it's such a short. A small panel of people that are voting, and things can go a little crazy, like the Iguodala vote and, and things like that. And I especially think lately, with more of the scrutiny that is on the vote, I wonder about, you know, people being influenced in those situations and like, okay, what are people going to say about me when they say, John Krasinski voted for this guy, what an idiot. Or. Or something like that. Like, that's really factors in nowadays. And so it, It. It's. It's hard to contextualize that part of it. Yeah, but, yeah, I think Steph would be my pick as well. But, you know, there's going to be a bunch of these other pods up for, for this top 100 where it's going to be a Lot, I think, easier to have a debate on. Hey, this guy's at 72. He should be at 55. Yeah. But when you're talking about five creme de la creme. Yeah. It's like, should he be over Hakeem? Yeah, maybe Kobe. Yeah. I mean these names are so legendary and so iconic that I mean, yeah, it's, it's splitting hairs. Like it's, you know, do you want them 12th, 11th? Do you want magic 5th or 27th like you do Kelly? You know, it's just, you know, it's up for debate, but yeah, yeah, that's a system player. Well, hey guys, this has been great, great conversation. Anything to wrap up before we, before we get on out of here. Any closing thoughts from you guys?
- [48:58]
Kelly Eco
I think at some point we should do a top 100 interview list.
- [49:03]
John Krasinski
Yes.
- [49:03]
Kelly Eco
I think going back to what you said about, about being around KG covering and speaking to him, I want to see like who are there the top 10 guys in that? Because I think Carmelo's up there for sure, 100%. But yeah, just to see if we could compile that kind of list. As long as Magic's not on it, I'm cool.
- [49:24]
John Krasinski
Hate hard. Approved.
- [49:26]
J. King
I just feel like we should salute Moses Malone. We did not talk about Moses Malone at all.
- [49:30]
John Krasinski
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:32]
J. King
And it's probably fitting because Moses Malone was like, like before I guess the league kind of took off. But three time MVP, like 12 time All Star, just ridiculous accolades and probably one of the most under discussed players in NBA history. And we didn't discuss him at all. So salute to Moses Malone.
- [49:57]
Kelly Eco
That's John's fault.
- [49:58]
John Krasinski
No, that's bad. Yeah, I'm a bad host for that. But like that's. Honestly guys, that's what I worry about both with him and Duncan in terms of Moses as another guy that was quiet as a church. You are not going to see him promoting himself, doing the, you know, being on ESPN as an analyst, like getting any kind of modern attention for what he did. And Tim Duncan is the same way. There are, there's going to be, not in the not too distant future conversations with media members or, or younger followers of the game who come up and say, man, I've watched these Tim Duncan highlights and all it is is a bunch of turnaround bank shots in the post. How good was he, man? You know, if I look back at these Moses Malone, all he did was rebound his own misses, put him back and, and pile up stats that way. Like really, was he that good? And, and no, the answer Is they. Moses was incredible. Just an incredible two way force who never drew any attention to himself, but just busted your ass every single night that you got on the court with them. And so, you know, we're, we're already kind of seeing him slide toward the back of the top 20 and just that the lack of, of electricity in around him I think is gonna kind of contribute to a slide that will happen that probably is undeserved. And I think the same thing might happen with Duncan.
- [51:35]
J. King
Yeah. And with Duncan too. The consistency and the relentless consistency was part of what made him so great.
- [51:41]
John Krasinski
Yeah.
- [51:42]
Kelly Eco
Like he's almost punished for being so consistent.
- [51:44]
J. King
He received MVP votes and defensive player of the year votes when he was a rookie in 1998. And he did it, still was doing it in 2015. Incredible. Crazy that is. And he was doing it basically all the way through. And so, yeah, like, why are you gonna. Are people gonna watch highlights and be like, oh, he was just hitting bank shots over people. He was just hitting like, that guy was a goat. Like, that dude was in the right spot every single time. He allowed guys around him to flourish. Those teams never would have evolved the way they did. Tony Parker Manufacturer KAWHI they never would have been as good as they were if Tim Duncan wasn't there to empower them and play in a style that was great on its own, but also allowed everybody else to be great and do their own thing around him.
- [52:31]
Kelly Eco
For sure. For sure.
- [52:33]
John Krasinski
Yeah. And one of my favorite, KG would talk about Duncan. They had a huge rivalry and didn't get along stuff. But, and, but KG would say you would play against Tim Duncan and he would, you know, right shoulder, left shoulder, bump, hook shot. And you'd, you'd be an inch away from blocking. He'd say, almost, big fella, nice try. And like that was his little. That was his little talk. It was just like, oh, maybe next time. Like that. Just little quicker that. Yeah. Where KG is like full lather, just F bombs and just like, you know, assaulting him verbally. Tim would just be like, yep. And just go about his business and do his work. Unbelievable.
- [53:14]
Kelly Eco
Yeah. It's a humble giant.
- [53:16]
John Krasinski
Yep. Awesome, guys. Well, hey, this was a lot of fun. Kelly Eco in Houston, J. King in Boston. You guys are great. Awesome. It was great to talk to you about this top 20. I'm sure we are going to get some debate and pushback off of this, which will be great. You can find him online at kellyeco. Just find us. Find him somewhere and we will, but we will catch up with you guys next time. Thanks a lot for taking it. This has been the Basketball 100 podcast here at the Athletic.
- [53:58]
Derek Clason
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