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SPECIAL No Free Lunch feed drop: The Secret to Building Kevin Durant's Empire w/ Rich Kleiman
00:57:26
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Foreign.
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Athletes aren't just chasing wins, they're building empires on no Free Lunch from the athletic NFL star and Dominican SU dives into money mindset and making moves in business with top athletes and financial pros. Enjoy this episode and be sure to subscribe to no Free Lunch with new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday on YouTube or or wherever you get your podcasts.
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He's going to have to have trials and tribulations of saying, hey, I'm going to try this. I don't like that, I'm going to throw that away. I'm going to go to this, I'm going to try that. And so like, I'm in the midst of that process and I've been fortunate. I've hit a lot of like great lightning bolts that I'm really, really excited about. But there's still so much more for me to try.
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B
The irony of it all is when people like you and Kevin retire, you go from being old to young. Because you might be old in football, but you're young in real life and you've got so many things you can do.
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No Free Lunch is presented by T. Rowe Price. The information provided on this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered financial or legal advice. Always consult with a qualified financial and or legal professionals before making any legal or financial decisions or investments. I'm Indoma Kinsu and welcome to no Free Lunch where we talk to experts and athletes about how the most successful people in sports manage their money and grow their wealth. When you think of the most successful athletes off the field, you might think of Magic Johnson, George Foreman, or even Jumpman Michael Jordan. From media to tech and venture capital, athletes are creating real enterprises that will last for decades after they're done playing. Arguably, nobody is doing it better than Kevin Durant. So today I'm speaking with KD's longtime agent and business partner Rich Kleinman to discuss how athletes can build their post retirement career while they're still playing. Let's talk about it right here on no Free Lunch. Today's guest on no Free Lunch is a trailblazer in the sports entertainment business. He's a longtime business partner of Kevin Durant, AKA KD and Rich. Welcome to the show man.
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B
Thank you man. I'm excited to be on no Free Lunch.
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A
Yeah man, I appreciate you joining us, especially being a busy man. We're well connected in so many different places, but it's funny, we've never fully fully met each other until now. We were talking about earlier how you and my sister are Both at Roc Nation with our family members, Jay and Jay Brown, who I'm super close with and whatnot. So I'd love to just jump into this. Man, I'm super excited because I've been watching you from afar. Everything that you've built with KD and from boardroom to 35 ventures and everything you're building, I just want to share with people, like, what made you become who you are. Especially as a young kid, born and raised in New York, being a hustler and just grinding all the time, I got a lot of respect for people like that. What was that like? And how did you get to where you're at right now?
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B
Yeah, well, I appreciate that. And I think, you know, for me, I had the benefit of growing up in New York at a time when hip hop was exploding. Basketball culture has always been so big in New York City. And for me, I never connected in school. Like, I loved being around people in school. I loved being around my friends. I love playing sports. And what was funny is, I did so bad in school, but I never missed school. Like, I never took a day off. I never missed practice. I just wanted to be around everybody. And I really prided myself as a young person of having this, like, wide array of friends. And to me, that was my currency. That was, like, what gave me oxygen as a kid was just being in the mix and, like, knowing what was going on for better or worse, right? There's pressures that come with trying to keep up all the time, but I just had the ability and the confidence to be in any room at a very young age. And even if I did feel uneasy about going to a certain park that I was going to go watch people hoop at or being invited to a friend's studio when I was a young kid, I wasn't going to miss that opportunity. And I wanted to play sports. Like, I was a good athlete, but I wasn't a great athlete, right? Like, so at the time, I thought I was good. But when you start venturing out of your little community, you quickly can figure out, like, oh, like, I can't play sports, man. But I didn't want to miss it. So it was like, all right, cool, if I try out for Riverside basketball team? And at that point, in New York, there was only a few AAU teams, so you have to be really, really, really good. So if I tried out and I didn't make the team, I wasn't like, all right, I'm just done. I was like, yo, let me stay in touch with these dudes. That I met at tryouts. So from, from that point, I like, just got into one college and it was in Boston. And as soon as I got there, it was the same. Like, I knew I had no discipline to be in school or any focus to finish school, but when I was there, I started booking. And when I was a bookie, it was like a reaction to me seeing that everyone I was meeting wanted to place bets. And for some reason, I just quickly connected with that hustle. Like, I was like, I'll do it. I said to my friends, like, I got you. Like, I can take your bets. And for some reason, even though it was an illegal business, the idea of running this company and being focused on taking bets and having a system in place and having a structure and making money, something clicked in me. Like, okay, well, if I do put my mind to something entrepreneurial. Right. I didn't know that word back then, but if I could put my mind to something, this is giving me some fuel. And that was really like my first hustle. Hustle was like running this bookie operation.
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A
Yeah, no, that's dope, man. I mean, to have that foresight. And as you mentioned, not everybody not having the cliche word that it was everybody knows as entrepreneurship now, you were starting at a young age, creating that in that small business. As you continue to grow and aspire to become an entrepreneur, not even knowing it. Something you touched on that I really like is you're really relationship based. And as you're looking at those relationships and, and cultivating them and helping them, how do you continue to evolve, building those relationships and really more or less adding value?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think, like, I had a long game for myself always, you know, and I still do. Like, I have fantasies, I have visions, I have things that I'm working for and striving for. It's not money based. It's more about, like, the impact that I feel like I can create in the world or for myself. Right. Like, how I feel about it. So I felt some of that from booking. And when I got out of college after a year and went back to the city, I tried to keep running my bookie operation, but the stakes got higher and I was now really running a business and I was in New York and it just went left, if you understand what I mean. Right. Like, it was no longer in control and a fun little college book. But I always, like, would look at these certain people and think to myself, like, man, if I could just hoop, I could have like, just kept going. Or if I could rap, I could have just kept going. Or if I grew up and my father ran private wealth at Goldman Sachs, I would just get on. So it always felt like someone had a currency. So I felt like, well, my currency would clearly be how many people I know, like how deep my network is, how deep my relationships are. But it wasn't gonna be at that point in my life, like, oh, I know this dude over at this company. Cause I had no access to that. But what I did think was powerful was like the equivalent of like the popular kid, right? Like that to me was like, what all I could conjure up as a kid, I was like, all right, well, you'll know me as someone that's at every party. You'll know me as someone that is in every room. And the only way to really do that at a young age, because no one has anything to offer anybody, is to like, really have a connection to somebody and really be able to like, have a point of view and a personality and to just like, enjoy people and to ask them about themselves and to really be curious. So I just did that naturally. And that became a bit of the pattern for me. And how I continued to build relationships was like, let me not ask this person for anything. Like, because ultimately, if there's a real relationship here, at some point we're going to both ask each other for something. Not because we're using each other, but just because that's what good relationships are. Like, you're in a marriage, you're each giving each other something. With your children, with anybody you work with. So let me just make these relationships non transactional and really connect with people. So I really have always thought of things like that, right? There's still people now that I meet. And it's not calculated, or at least I tell myself it's not calculated. But when I meet them, I'm thinking like, okay, I see where this person could play in what I'm building. I'm not going to ask them right now. Like, I can't ask them this right now. So for me, it's always been like, let me really connect. Let me really make this a real relationship. Understand who the person is, gain that trust and like, yeah, we can add value to each other at some point in our life in any capacity. That's a win. But the relationship can only work if we can really connect on a personal level. And that's just been the pattern I've used my whole life.
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A
No, that's super dope. And so let's, let's Dive in a little bit more to how those relationships evolved.
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B
Yeah, well, so what happened was, is I got out in the mix in clubs in New York. So, like, the person that was the star at a club in New York as a kid was a dj, right? It was like the people that came into the party, and then it was the DJ and the DJ in New York that was like, bridging the gap between, like, the hip hop world and fashion world and the music. Music business was this guy, Mark Ronson.
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A
And.
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B
And the funny thing about the relationships that I was talking about is sometimes the talent. And you may understand this is that, like, everybody assumes that, like, they don't know what to say to you, or they don't know how to talk to you, or they don't want them to think they're talking to you for this reason, or they act. They're out of character when they around you. So sometimes talent is the loneliest in the room because people aren't even talking to them a real way. So I would always just like, be like, nah, I'm the same. Like, you grew up in New York. You see these people, they're way more like relatable or feel approachable at a really young age. So the first kind of foray into that was I was managing DJs and I was managing DJs who like, work their set in all these different clubs, and they would take me to different private events and take me into different parties and cities, and I go from like a fashion show to a celebrity wedding to like the best club night on Tuesday, Friday, Saturday in New York. And I was like, if I'm gonna be in here and I'm gonna get this platform, I'm just not gonna stand with the crates next to the dj. I'm gonna work the room. So that just started to get me in the mix in the music business a bit. And once I got into the music business a bit, like, I was doing different things. Like, I was a music supervisor, I was managing clubs and consulting for clubs. But the closest thing to that was artists. And from being in the mix, I started meeting artists and. And then artists asked me to manage them, and I would start managing artists. Then Mark Ronson and I built a label, and all of a sudden I was in the music business. Right. I had no intention to do it, but the energy of the music business was something that felt so like on brand with who I was, and I just kind of jumped into it.
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A
Yeah, no, that's dope. And I mean, I want to touch A little bit more on. On your conversation and the statement that you made about how, like, athletes, entertainment, entertainers, and people just not treating us as human beings at the end of the day and just talking to us like normal people. Like, talk to me like you talk to my dad or to my sister or whatever it is. Just keep it basically raw of what you're saying. And then you fit into those rooms and have those real transparent conversations. And I imagine that took you a long way with building those relationships with the different people that obviously are very talented and. And gifted, but they said, nah, man, this person is treating me like a true human being at the end of the day. So I can actually. I want to mess with them and I want to work with them because they gonna tell me the truth. They're gonna keep it 100 with me the entire time.
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B
Yeah. Without question. And you know, and also, like, one thing talent does like to do, really everybody likes to do, is at times they like to talk about themselves also. Right. So I would. I would have no problem asking Mark, like, bro, how'd you work this set? Like, this is crazy. How much you getting paid for this gig? Like, so I understand, is every set every night different? Or you got a plan set and you know you're going to get engagement from somebody when you start to really show a real interest in what it is that they do. And then also, like, confidence will breed success in. In every walk of life. So, you know, Mark used to say to me, when. When he asked me to manage him, I was like, damn, like, I'm just in the club. Like, why you at why me? He was like, I like the way you move around the room. And if you're managing a DJ at that point, like, what's the real skill set you need is like, the confidence to move around the room, like, go collect the money at the end of the night, be able to make sure the right people around with tables are near the DJ booth. So I think for me, it was like, all right, I'm going to be fearless and talk to anybody. But it doesn't mean that there weren't times, especially when I started to get around into the music business to get into certain rooms where, like, I look back on certain meals I had early in my career, certain studios I was in or rooms I was in. And I almost think about it from a sports analogy is like, I mean, I would imagine you dominated every level always, but let's say like in ninth grade, in high school, yeah, you're in, you're in the locker room, and they're like, all right, bro. You're going to come in on passing situations, and you're sitting there thinking, like, bro, I'm the best player in here. Like, I know I'm going to dominate. You knew, yeah. But you just were like, all right, that's the process, right? There's a little bit of a process. So for me, it was like, I'd be in some of these rooms or some of these dinners and be like, damn, I'm sitting with X, Y, and Z. But I'm not, like, really acting, like, all the way myself. But that's because when the. When the levels got higher, that same confidence that I had in the city, I was like, all right, this is different. I'm going to have to figure out how to be my real self in every room. But it's okay because, like, this version of me is the one that's learning. This version of me is the one that's gonna watch. So, like, when people say to me, like, who are your mentors? I don't really. I really have such a hard time answering that. Cause I'm like, well, is a mentor, like, supposed to be this Yoda that you point to? That's like, yo, they gave me the game, right? Like, a lot of athletes have a coach or a certain trainer or someone. I didn't really have anybody like that. Almost probably because I was too confident for my own good at some points. But so my mentors were people that I watched. I was like, oh, okay. I see how Jimmy Iovine is. I see how he moves. I get it. All right, I'm gonna make a mental note of that. Like, that's my mentors for me. So I think as I started to, like, continue to grow in business, I had to keep reminding myself, like, all right, the same reason you were in the mix as a kid and able to get these guys to work with you and these guys to work with you. It's still applicable even if the stakes get higher. But maybe you just gotta work a little harder, right? Like, the same I would kick to Mark Ronson ain't gonna work. The first time I meet Jay Z, he. He's looking at me like, what you talking about? So I'm like, all right, let me. Let me. I have a whole different hustle I gotta think about with myself now. I will say that at this point in my life, the one thing that I feel the most proud of is I'm like, okay, cool. Any room doesn't mean that there's still not so many levels that I wish I could go to or so many people that I admire, but I'm not gonna be uncomfortable in any situation now. But that took a long time to get to that point.
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A
Your character, that's a testament to your character at the end of the day, like, to be able to be uncomfortable and put yourself in those uncomfortable positions, to be able to get there. And ultimately, when I look at it, to your, to your comments of, like, knowing that you are considered one of the best or you believe yourself as being one of the best. Like, I remember back in the day when I went to Army, US Army All American game in high school and they asked, they looked at me and said, hey, we're gonna have you play O line. But I came here as a D lineman. I was like, all right, it's cool. Let me just do this. I can, I can play offensive line and I can play defensive line, but I'm going to go kill it over here, shut all these top five guys that, that are ranked ahead of me, and then I'm going to go play D line as well and go win that side of things. So ton of respect from that standpoint. And then you mentioned Jimmy Iovine and being a mentor of yours and somebody that, that you looked up to and wanted to follow their footsteps. It's crazy that you say that though, because Jay Brown was that for me. Like, I remember being around Jay Z, being introduced to him from Uncle Wes and all these different particular people and, like, seeing how he's moving. But I'm like the dude over here in the cut in the shadows, like, making tons and tons of moves, but just silent about it, like, and when I pull back the layers, oh, he's managing her, he's managing him. And like, it's crazy. And like, then Jay is like, man, you can come, come sit in meetings with me. I don't care. So I'm. I'm sitting in crazy, crazy meetings. Big, big, multi billion dollar deals that are getting done with him, and he let me have that access and I'm soaking up all that knowledge. So I want to change the subject a little bit and kind of dive into the KD side of things, of what did you see in him, why you wanted to partner with him, to be able to say, hey, like, he's special and we can build something amazing together.
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B
You know, that's a great question, because it almost in a lot of ways fills the gap with the last thing I was saying. So imagine you have this, like, unconventional journey where you don't do well in school. You have a lot of chaos around your home life, but you start finding your footing, and you're like, damn. Like, this is easy. Like, I'm a bookie. So I got some money now. I'm a manager of DJs. I'm getting in every club. Now I'm managing some artists. I got a label again. Like, money's never been the thing that drove me like, that. I always could hustle enough to make money for myself, right? So I was always going to be like, all right, I'll have money. But then all of a sudden, I get to this next level in my career, and I'm like, holy. Like, I'm not moving up at the same speed that I. That I was moving at. I'm not as comfortable in every room that I'm in. And I almost felt like I hit this, like, stop Gap, where I was managing a ton of artists. Like, I was. I worked on I was an A and R and J. Cole's first album. And look at J. Cole, right? I managed Solange, Meek Mill, Wale. I'm in the studio with Jay at times with no idea I'm around it, but I'm like, damn. I'm not. What's happening right now. Like, why am I at this space? Like, is this me right now? And when looking back on it, I think, like, I got married young. I had two girls in my 30s. And so maybe that was just life, right? Like, maybe mentally there was a rationale for why that paused a bit, or my confidence was stagnant. But the thing that was missing was this, like, passion. And even though I grew up in the music business, sports was my passion. Basketball was my passion. So I was like, yo, you know what? I think the only way to get this back would be to, like, figure out a way to work in sports. And I had started building great relationships with athletes. So, like, two New York athletes, Victor Cruz and Cece Sabathia, we would always kick it. And I would talk to them about marketing and branding, and, like, the music business blueprint was starting to be used in sports. So now athletes really understood what I was saying. Like, the way I was talking about how you would build a brand or approach a sponsor was resonating. So I remember I said to Jay, like, yo, I want to go into sports. And he was like, bro, we're about to start an agency. And I'm like, yo, let me work on the agency. And to their credit, like, they let me work on it from day one. And when I said, To Jay, I have to dead everybody I'm working with in music. And he was like, why? And I'm like, I can't do both. He's like, yeah, you can. I'm like, no, you can do both. But if I'm going to do this, I'm telling you, all these relationships that I built in music, they're not going to convert. So I'm going to have to build all these relationships again. At your level, it doesn't matter. You call a commissioner or you call the chairman of Sony Music. Same. But for me, I'm going to have to know now who these people at the Nike shoot, they're not the same people that were at the video shoot. And I don't want anybody to look at me and go, that's the guy who manages artists. Because I know what that is. You know that you'd be like, yo, who works with. Who works with Katie? Oh, that's Wale, manager. And they're like, he's not. Especially at that time.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I was like, all right, I'm moving into sports. They gave me the idea. They gave me the opening to move into sports. And one of the only athletes that I really knew well was KD from Wale.
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A
Okay?
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B
So I would hit Kevin, and timing in life is everything. He was at this great place in his life. But when we ultimately signed him, it wasn't just that I was working in sports. It was like, wait, all of a sudden, somebody this good, right? Because think about it. I'm moving up. I'm moving up. I'm moving up. But now I'm not feel. Feeling like myself. When I'm sitting at dinner with Jimmy Iovine and Mary J. Blige, I'm like, damn, why am I not talking with the same confidence? Or if I'm in the studio with Jay, like, that's my man. We were super, super tight, but I'm like, damn, I'm not even all the way myself. It's not even a conscious thing. I'm just like, damn, I'm not all the way myself. Like, I could somewhere feel that, but now I'm around kd, I feel all the way myself. He wants me around him, and this is one of the best in the world. It just got my confidence back. It got me feeling like, oh, I can really do this at a super high level. And I think, like, once he gave me that belief, all of a sudden I felt this commitment to him that was like, nah. Like, I'm not letting anything happen to him, to this relationship. I'm going to work harder than I've ever worked in my life. Because as you know, to be as great as you are, or he is, the work that's put in blew my mind. Like, we would take a Nike trip to China. We get off a 16 hour flight, I'd be like, oh, yeah, we going back to the hotel, right, to chill. You'd be like, no, we're going to the gym. Like, the gym in the music business. We'd go back to the room, have a session, chill, go to sleep. Now you want to go to the gym. So I was like, I better work. Then I got to work on another level.
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A
It seemed like you were in the music business and you enjoyed it. You love working with Wale and J. Cole and all these amazing artists and you learned from them and you took great insight from them, but your passion wanted to be in sports. So then Wale plugs you into kd. Y' all hit it off from a. From a relationship standpoint. And he's starting to lean on you more than a friend of. But hey, man, I need to. I want to build my business. I can. I have something special. So how do you evolve that in that timeframe when you guys get comfortable with each other or 1000% comfortable with each other, saying, man, like, I'm a focus on sports. I want to still learn and build this, but how can you help me take that ball and run with it?
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B
The thing was, is, like, so, you know, I was moved into being an agent, but I didn't really have, like, the instincts of an agent, because the instincts of an agent is very transactional. The instincts of a manager, the instincts of, of a brand builder is like, you've got to put your whole mind, body and soul into it. Right? You got to understand it all. And if you think about the music business, like, if you manage an artist before their first album comes out, you're working with nothing. Like, you have to build a fan base. You have to figure out a way to get a hundred people to come here, you play. You gotta get the right packaging on the demo because you're gonna go sit in a record label and try to make them want to sign you. So all those things that was not about making money were things that I was really good at.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So as soon as I got with Kevin, like, everyone at rock was like, all right, so Rich, Kevin likes you around him, so you should probably be with him. Like, I know we have some other athletes you've signed, but, like, you should be with him. So I was like, without question. So if you think about that, like, 99% of the time, I'm with him. It's not about a deal.
- [25:26]
A
Hey, Rich, I gotta stop you real quick, man, because I want to give you kudos, because being an agent and having that title and a lot of people don't even realize this, but like you said, it's all transactional. They're looking at you as dollar signs. I commend you for pulling back and saying, man, yes, I got one of the best, if not one, I've got one of the best in the entire world at my fingertips to work with. And I'm not looking at him as a transaction. I'm looking at him as a human to build around him and playing the long game. So, man, kudos to you for doing that. But, like, that's what people are missing from an agent perspective and really, a true agency, like, if you can build that. And I want to get back into this conversation of you talking about how you guys continue to evolve, but then also next, like, how do you look for the next guy to also help him build something around? Like, that, too? But let's get back to, like, how you, like, continue to evolve and grow with kd.
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B
Well, I think what happened was, is. And I appreciate you saying that, you know, I. There was a difference between trying to build something that. If you think about what I said earlier about, like, for me, it's been about trying to figure out ways to impact whether I. I can't figure out if it's impacting me or it's impacting my world, like, my community around me. But that's what's motivating. Like, that's what's motivating. And I understand that. I mean, money is important in life, but that's what's motivating. So for me, when I was working with Kevin, it was like, well, he's gonna get a max contract. So, like, I'll figure out how to do that. You know, he's gonna get a big sneaker deal. I'm gonna figure out how to do that. But for some reason, I could see whenever we go to show up for a Sprint commercial, he looks miserable. Like, he looks miserable and he doesn't want to do it. So, like, what world are we in where if he's gonna make a max contract and he's gonna get a big stinker deal and he doesn't want to go to this Sprint commercial, why actually are we doing this? And I would say to him, like, do you want to do this, bro? No, I don't want to do at all. I'd be like, you know, you don't have to. And his eyes would light up, like. And you understand, like, as a young athlete, especially back in the day, you really thought some was just the way it was, like, oh, I gotta do it.
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A
And they're NFL sponsor. I gotta do with Verizon. Nah. I went and did it with Sprint and built something special with them and. And found ways to be creative. So I'm happy. And I want to go out there and do these activations or whatever it may be, not just because it's cookie cutter. I'm the next best guy, so they can plug and play me.
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B
Exactly. And. And, like, at what point should any of this feel like you already are putting in a certain amount of work, putting, in your case, your actual physical body on the line for someone else? Like, it's for you, but there is an organization in play that. That you can't control. Right. The NFL is the NFL. But does that mean on your off day, you got to go pop by this league sponsor or team sponsor if you're unhappy or miserable about it, well, then something's not adding up here. So I would say to Kevin, like, no, you don't have to do that. And he'd be like, oh, for real? I'd be like, yeah. I'm like, if I was you, I would focus on this restaurant you got in Oklahoma City. Maybe we can do three of these all throughout Oklahoma. I would start saying these things to him that would make him think about the possibilities. And then he did have the benefit of LeBron starting a few years before him. LeBron having that great close proximity to Jay and seeing that blueprint of how an economy can be built around this star at the center, especially a star with this gravitas and taste and vision. So Kevin could quickly go, oh, like, I could do this. And, oh, Rich just came from working with Jay. Like, maybe all the ingredients are here. So as soon as he gave me this nudge of, like, yo, let's just do our own. Let's really do this. All of a sudden, it all connected for me. Like, now I got the confidence from one of the best at what he does. I've got this experience now of being very comfortable, being uncomfortable. Now I think I really got it. Like, okay, I'm gonna put the work in. I'm gonna show the vision, and I'm gonna go for it a bit. And when you have that support and confidence from somebody all of a Sudden, like, you get that, like, wind at your sail and you're like, all right, like, I'm. Now I'm just going to. Now I'm going to have a little bit of, like, why not? Mentality. Like, I'm going for it. I'm not going to hesitate anymore. No more stop gaps. And then also, like, being clear that whatever it was we did, I wasn't going to. The main thing up. Like, I have a lot of respect for basketball, right at this point in my life, I've been able to build opportunities at a brand for myself and our business. But up until recently, like, the last few years, I wasn't naive. Yeah, basketball is bringing us here. So, like, whatever you need to do. If I think you should sign with the Knicks, but you want to go to the Nets. All right, bro, I told you how I feel. But I'm a ride with you, you know, like, it's only I can do about it.
- [30:48]
A
Nah, that's fresh. Because one, I want to. I want to Gateway into boardroom and why you guys created that, because, I mean, from afar watching, I think y' all are incredible. I aspire to be similar in. In a lot of different ways, but I want to understand everything that you're building underneath it, because I know you guys partnered in 2019 for 2C, a two season deal with the show called the boardroom. And, like, how you guys built that and why you built that.
- [31:18]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, it was like, I realized now that the way the sports world had evolved, that a lot of my experiences growing up in the music business, being a music supervisor, being able to be a producer on Fade to Black, and tapping into all these worlds, I realized that, like, the sports world now was. Was basically at the center of all of it. It had as much, if not more influence than any other sector in society. So all of a sudden, I'm thinking, well, the young sports fan in me as a kid, I probably wouldn't have done everything I did in the music business if it was today, because I would have said, wow, I could work in real estate, fashion, art, music. And it's all rooted in sport in some way. It's all connected back. So how do I build a brand that really embodies this world, this intersection? And the model at that point was like this weird time in media where digital media, which was like a whole other thing built around, like, views and page views and Facebook ads, so you could see buzzfeed and barstool and all these brands grow and to become these Big behemoth. But everyone started to see that, like, it was all falling off a cliff and that that wasn't going to have the stickiness. And I had been investing in venture, so I knew that if I tried to raise money, people would have been like, rich. Why? Why are you doing this, bro? Why? You need to get in the media business. Like, digital media is dead. You'll need all this money. And I hate that. Like, that's like my kryptonite. So I'm like, you know what, man? If Kevin and I are successful over here with this investment we're doing and some of the film and TV we're doing, I'm gonna build this brand. Because I really see it. Like, I. I thought of it and thought of the name boardroom in one second, like, it just all hit me like, oh, I know what I want to do. So I went to ESPN because I was like, well, I see this route where maybe if I do two shows, two seasons of a show at espn, that I could be like, the new undefeated. But I'll be the boardroom at ESPN because it'll represent, like, business and culture of sport and all this. Cool. I did two seasons of the show there. I quickly realized, like, nah, they're not. They're not going to buy. They're not buying this brand. Yeah, I went to do a pop up at Sloan at MIT in March of 20, right before COVID And right after we did the pop up, we did this, like, conversation with me, J. Will and Jalen Brown. And on stage, I had them call it bordering. And all these kids were coming up to me and I was like, oh, you know, this is really connecting. Like, this makes sense. And I think a lot of it has to do with this name. Like, just what it means. Like, it's just a different feeling. Then Covid hit ESPN was like, yo, we can't do a third season of the show. So for 24 hours, I was hot. Like, I called Jimmy. I'm like, how could you do this to me? And, like, it's Covid. Like, I was so, like, delusional on, like, how unimportant what I was saying was, but I just felt so passionate about this brand. So the next day, I was like, oh, you know what? I'm just gonna build this from the ground up. I'm gonna build it day by day. And since then, I think for me, I've looked at brands like Forbes and Vanity Fair and GQ and not necessarily thought, like, that's the way you build a company. Because that's all. These are ancient. I mean, these brands are still hot today, but they're ancient brands from when they were built. You can't build a company in the same business model. But the idea that Forbes is so sticky to people. Right. Like, if you're on the Forbes list, it's just a list, but people are calling the Forbes list. So I was like, I want to build a brand that means that to people. I want to put content out. I want to be experiential. I want to build all these different extensions of what this word boardroom means now to me. And it's going to encompass all these worlds. And that's kind of just been the vision. Like, keep adding block by block by block, and the brand sits at the center.
- [35:26]
A
What's KD's role in boardroom? Because obviously he's a part of it, but how does he influence in. And also, like, being a part of it? Like, you don't necessarily. Like you said, you don't leverage his name, image, and likeness from it, but he's a part of it. But you stand the boardroom brand as its own, but you've got two behemoths in yourself and KD behind it.
- [35:48]
B
Yeah. So him and I are like, equal partners in the ownership. I would say that he's way more involved than one would think for two reasons. A, he's got an incredible instinct and taste, and he's very much representing a different perspective of the conversation we're having. Right. So if I want to put someone on the COVID and I run it by him, and he's like, that is whack. Like, that is not a move like that. I take that. I take that feedback. But I'll also push back if I disagree. And he promotes it. He's updated daily, weekly. Like, I'm always communicating with him. And then when he pops into a certain content piece, then we have the benefit of, like, oh, my partner's also a very, like, notable star athlete. So that gives us, like, a lot of extra kind of infusion of excitement around the brand. He's at all of our events. He speaks at our conferences. You know, if I need him to holler at somebody that I want to get on the COVID of something, he'll hit them up. But. But at the end of the day, like, the brand is really an embodiment of the two of us. Right. So it's like it was built out of our relationship and seeing the, like, dynamic of what made me and what made him and then our connection. So you Know, it's, it's very much in the fabric of it all. But, you know, also the family office that we still run with 35 ventures, the cool thing is, is like, if we invest in psg, we utilize that investment and that ability to align with a brand like that, which was because Kevin was able to be invited to be on that cap table. Right. Like, they wanted us both, but it was Kevin that was really invited on that cap table that then gives boardroom this great, like, flywheel of branding and cachet. So so much of what we do with our family office stuff gives so much ammunition to boardroom.
- [37:49]
A
So rich, break down. What is 35 Ventures?
- [37:53]
B
Yeah, 35 Ventures was built to operate as like, the family office for Kevin's business. I'm intricately involved in every aspect of it. I manage and operate the family office, but it encompasses all of his investments, his brand deals, his encore off court, his foundation, and anything else that's made up of his, like, business set to be there for him for the rest of his life.
- [38:22]
A
Tell me a little bit of how you and KD's workflow works, especially when he's in season. He's going to go play for my big bro IME down in Houston. So congrats. Excited to come down there and be down there with y'. All. But how does that workflow work between you and kd, especially in season, off season? Because you said he's fully immersed with everything and as a part of decision making process and helping the Bro Boardroom and 35 ventures.
- [38:50]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's like it goes in waves because we speak every day, but I can read. I can read him. So, like, sometimes he'll FaceTime me, be like, bro, tell me what's going on. I'm locked in. I want to hear everything. Sometimes I'm just updating him so he hears it, but I could tell he's not as engaged. And then sometimes I'm like, yo, let me give him some space right now. Not that we're not talking, but I may just talk to him about ball for a few weeks, right? Or I may just talk to him about, like, something that's going on in his life. And if that happens for a period of time, let's say for like three, four weeks, I don't feel like we've locked in. Then I'll schedule something and be like, all right, bro, I'm coming to Phoenix. I'm coming to la. We're going to sit down. I'm going to give you the whole run of show. And then, like, once or twice a year, I'll make him do, like, State of the Union. But by the time I've done the State of the Union, he knows everything. But it's just, in my opinion, is good to keep that repetition, like, for me and for him to just keep saying the information over and over again. But, like, you know, you speak to someone every day, you tune them out at some time, especially me, right? I'm talking. As soon as that phone rings, I could be right into some. And he could be like, bro, I just woke up. Like, I don't want to hear about that right now. But you know, that that's how I am.
- [40:12]
A
Curious, from your perspective, do you think boardroom and 35 ventures and all the outside adventures that he has going on that you guys work on keeps him sharp on the. On the court?
- [40:26]
B
That's a great question. I wouldn't say keeps him. I wouldn't say keeps him sharp, but what I do think is, I would imagine he's never said this to me, but I would imagine that when he may be down about something in sports at this point in his career, right? Like, look at last year in Phoenix. That was just. That was a bad year, right, Bill? The same way if work's going crazy and you. I go and I go home at night and I'm talking to my daughters, I'm like, all right, like, little perspective shift, right? You gotta find something else great to kind of remind you, like, all right, it's not the whole world.
- [41:13]
A
Yeah.
- [41:14]
B
So I think sometimes when he's feeling a bit down maybe about something in sports, it's exciting for him to be like, yo, tell me what we got today? Because it's a nice distraction, and it's a nice way to be like, all right, like, let me. Let me. Let me. Let me, like, remind myself of what the hell I built here and who I am.
- [41:34]
A
I asked the question that way because when I mean, it keeps him sharp. He's able to disengage from basketball, which is a ton of energy and emotional, physical, like, emotions that go into that. And so, hey, I can now go over here with my guy Rich, and I can go and focus on PSG deal. Philadelphia Unions, Brooklyn Aces, whatever it may be, Gotham fc. And then, like, I've recharged, and then I get right back into to hoop and I'm. I'm fully locked in again now. But I had that break away where I got to put it off and put it in a box and. And now I come back even Sharper to it.
- [42:15]
B
100%, bro. 100%. That's spot on. That's actually really spot on. Because you know what I've been telling a lot of young managers that I speak to, I said, you need to work to the point where your client or your partner is hearing about you from other people. You got to get to the point that when you are not with him or her and they're moving around and someone's like, yo, Rich is hustling. Rich is on it. Trust me, that'll get. That'll get him locked. And I remember when we went to the Bay after year one in the Bay, Kevin went to training camp and hit me like, bro, Draymond. And them was like, what are y' all doing out here? And I was like, that's what you wanted. Like, now I know you know that I'm busting my ass. So in a lot of ways, like, that same thing, which gives you a little bit of, like, the sharpness you're talking about is, like, it allows you to, like, disarm and disengage from, like, the mental warfare of being a professional athlete, especially in, like, today's day.
- [43:25]
A
Yeah, no, because, I mean, I had to do it. And that's why I asked the question. Because, man, Mondays and Tuesdays, like, out to doing my treatment, man, I had to disengage from football because it's a grind. I've been. I went Tuesday through. Really Tuesday night through Sunday. I have a little break on Saturday, try and disengage, and then get. Drive right back into it where we play on. On Sunday and whatnot. And so that's really why I asked the question. But you. You brought up something about being in the Bay. And so my question for you is, like, with the 35 ventures and all the different business deals and mentioning Draymond and, like, I know he's got some amazing mentors over there in the Bay, but for you guys, when he made that decision to go to the warriors and play with that team and obviously do an incredible job from the basketball side of things, how did you guys talk about before he got there, how you were going to leverage him being in that city and in the valley of, like, man, there's nothing but greatness in there for success, especially off the court.
- [44:25]
B
Yeah. Well, it's funny because, like, we knew it during the decision making when we were in the Hamptons, and people, like, some of our, like, the OGs, would say it to us, but it didn't really compute. Like, I didn't really have any idea how I was going to ingratiate myself into that world? Steve Stout set up a dinner for us for Kevin's birthday at Ben Horowitz's house.
- [44:54]
A
Okay.
- [44:55]
B
And it's. It was right before training camp. Kevin's birthday is the end of September.
- [45:00]
A
And people. You don't know who Ben Horowitz is. That's a part of Andreessen Horowitz.
- [45:05]
B
Yeah. So, like, one of the most powerful investors in technology and business in the last hundred years. So Steve Stout sets this birthday dinner up for Kevin, and it was also his, like, welcome to the bay.
- [45:21]
A
Yeah.
- [45:22]
B
And we did it at Ben's house, and the whole team was there, and Ben invited, like, the who's who of the Valley. So all of a sudden, I'm in this room, and everywhere I turn, someone's introducing themselves to me. And that's brand new. So I'm like, don't know enough to know which person or not I'm supposed to be talking to. So I'm just talking to everyone. Then the next day I'm like, oh, Ron Conway. It says here he's one of the greatest angel investors of all time. Neil Mohan. He's the chief product officer of YouTube. Bill Gurley. Oh, my God. He's a senior partner at Benchmark. Oh, I'm calling every single one of these people. And then I said to Kevin, kevin, we're gonna go have dinner with them. Can't you do it? Nah, Trust me. Give me a year. I could have every one of these dinners by myself. You got come with me to these dinners. So we would go to dinner. And what I did that I think was smart was I knew I couldn't fake that I knew what I was talking about. Like, I knew that. And I also knew that in order for Kevin to figure out and get the information he needed, I was going to have to ask dumb questions. So I always tell this story because in hindsight, I must have sounded like an idiot. But in a lot of ways, it was so eye opening for me, was Ron Conway sits and starts saying to me at dinner, here are all these deals. He's like, got all this list of deals. He's like, we invested in this one and this one and this one. We invested in this one, in the seed round, we invested in this one, in the Series A round. We invested in this one. And it monetized after it went public. And I was just like, yo, I don't even know what a seed or Series A is. Like, straight up. I just don't know. And he was like, wow, okay. And he starts breaking it down. And what I am good at is, like, hearing it, taking it, and keeping it moving. So all of a sudden I was like, that's the unlock. Like, the unlock is simple. I'm just gonna be 100% myself and ask every question. And then a lot of times, those guys would bring someone with them. So, like, imagine you're Ron Conway. You're like 70. You're like, yo, let me bring my young, cool investor guy to dinner with Rich and Kevin. So as soon as dinner's over, Ron's going to go home. Young guy's going to stay with us. So all the questions I asked Ron, then I go with the young guy, we go out, we chill, and I'm asking a million more questions. And then it all starts to unfold. And then within a few months, Kevin and I were like, oh. Like, these are. You know, people say, like, these guys are trying to change the world, but, like, no, these people are really changing the world. Like, this is crazy. So that's kind of how that caught fire. And then we were just like, really? And then the warriors were the greatest platform during that three years we were there. It was incredible.
- [48:20]
A
Man, that's. That's so dope, man. I love you sharing that, because that's where a lot of people don't understand. And my mom's a school teacher, so she's always told me there's no thing as a dumb question. You just gotta have the balls to ask it and ask for help. And that's fresh to me, because, one, you're doing it not only for your own knowledge, but for KD's knowledge. And. And you gotta learn the terminology. It's a whole different ball game of understanding the terminology from seed rounds to Series A and how that all so you can connect the dots. Cause it's basic, but you just haven't been exposed to that terminology just yet.
- [48:54]
B
When you are with somebody like Ron Conway, Ben Horowitz, if you are acting like you know, you're better off asking the question because they know that you don't know. As soon as you try to act like you know, they know right away. You don't know from the way you're responding to it. So you're better off being, like, with conviction. I have no idea what you're talking about. That's so much better for someone like that.
- [49:26]
A
And you'll gain way more respect from them because you've actually been truthful from that perspective. A question for you as we talked about the warriors and the different things of obviously he benefited going to that team. Do you guys also talk about relationships of saying, all right, he's not at the end of his career by any means, but it's going to probably end sooner than later. From that perspective, is there a reason why he chose Houston outside of the basketball reasons and also, like, how are you guys building and preparing for life after ball?
- [49:59]
B
Well, first, as it relates to Houston, he didn't want to leave Phoenix. That wasn't the plan. He was really happy living there. It obviously didn't work from a basketball standpoint. It was over, right. Sometimes when it's over, it's over. And you know, I think that, like you said, IME Royale Ivy is an assistant there is one of Kevin's best friends, man, D.J.
- [50:24]
A
Augustine, they got that teacher's connection.
- [50:26]
B
Yeah, D.J. augustine's in the front office. D.J. is there. I know, I know, bro. He got all young dogs like Ahmed and Jabari and Tari. They got Van Fleet. They're just so deep and so athletic. And I think you could see now that the NBA, you have to be athletic. You have to have 10 players being able to play the ball's got move. And I just think the whole scenario of this organization is going to be the perfect fit for him, I hope. And Phoenix, ultimately, you know, it was a lot. It was a bit of a process, but they got him where he wanted, so I'm excited about that. It, you know, it should and probably needs to be the last stop of his career. I think he could play another three, four years. I mean, honestly, he could probably play longer. But I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, obviously health. You got to make sure at a certain point, if you are ready to do it 365 days of the year, it's not just 82 games, right? So. And I think as it relates to after basketball, it's almost twofold because, like, financially he's good. He be able to retire with a family office structure that's been built for him where he's got a foundation that he's built that his family is running day to day in Suitland, Maryland. We have invested in real estate and private equity. He's got public stocks, he's got a venture fund, he's got other cool investments that have gained value. He's invested in some sports teams. He's got a lifetime Nike deal. All of that waits for him from a security standpoint, if any of those things, he wants to get more involved in he can at any time. Boardroom is something that is not going to probably ever be his day to day job, but it's another cool asset that he has when he's done playing. Yeah, financially he's straight. But what he's got to figure out, which I'm sure you now have to think more and more about, is like, but I may, let's say, need 25, 30, 40 days from you a year. Let's say max, I say, bro, you give me 40 days, all this will run the rest of your life. Cool. The other 325 days of the year, what do you want to do? Like, what is it you want to do? Because only you know that. And that may not be. It's not going to be business. Like, yes, you can have business. Like. Like, yes, it's going to be business. But what is it you want to do? You want to be more involved with Team usa? You want to own an NBA team or run a front office, you want to run WNBA team, you want to be more involved with like youth basketball? What is it you are going to want to do? I don't know if he's figured that part out yet, but I think he feels confident that when he retires that his life is in order, his finances and he'll have a lot of things that he could tap into to inspire him and be involved in. But he may want to figure out what becomes that thing that fills what he's done his whole life. That's, you know, only something that you can relate to. Right? Like, that's a different mentality.
- [53:49]
A
Man, you, I think you said it spot on, man, because fortunate enough to have all the great mentors and all the people to help you build those nest eggs. So God forbid, you don't have anything to worry about and you're financially sound, but what's going to keep you fulfilled and excited to wake up every single morning. So for me, my kids, my wife, like these different particular aspects that I'm working on and that is something that he's going to have to have trials and tribulations of saying, hey, I'm going to try this. I don't like that. I'm going to throw that away. I'm going to go to this, I'm going to try that. And so like, I'm in the midst of that process and I've been fortunate. I've hit a lot of like great lightning bolts that I'm really, really excited about. But there's still so much more for me to try because the last 15 years, it's been nothing but football and focusing on those different things. And he has to go through that process at some point in time. When he does decide to say, hey, here are my basketball shoes. One of the dope has got the lifetime deal, as you mentioned, with Nike and Elliot Hill, everybody over there. But what's going to ultimately fulfill me and take that time that I have. Man, Rich, this has been amazing, man. We don't have to connect in New York or wherever, definitely in Houston. But this has been an amazing conversation, boss man.
- [55:10]
B
I feel the same way. And incredible questions. One of the many things that you'll need to do in this next phase of your life is to keep doing this. It'll probably fuel you and give you information and motivation and all the other things you do. And the irony of it all is when people like you and Kevin retire, you go from being old to young because you might be old in football, but you're young in real life and you've got so many things you can do. So let's definitely stay in touch and let's exchange contacts and keep building, man. And we'll catch a game in Houston and come kick it in New York when you're here.
- [55:46]
A
No question, man. We definitely gonna break bread together. So I appreciate it, man, again for joining no Free Lunch. But this has been a pleasure and many more times for us to connect here in the near future.
- [55:56]
B
Appreciate it, bro. Thank you, man. It's been fun.
- [56:00]
A
Tro Price proudly sponsors no Free Lunch. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the podcast participants and do not necessarily reflect those of T. Rowe Price. Their sponsorship supports the platform platform and does not imply endorsement of specific content or perspectives. Man, what a conversation with my man Rich Kleinman. It's to say the least, he is very, very special. Grinding from being a bookie as a young kid growing up through Roc Nation, working wale and then now we're managing and operating everything for KD from boardroom to 35 ventures. But I would say that's ultimately the biggest takeaway that I take from this conversation is just you have to find people that can help you build your team, especially as a professional athlete or entertainer that you can trust vibe with, but more importantly help you grow and challenge you in multiple different ways. And I think Rich is doing an excellent job for KD and continuing to to build his off field endeavors, but also helping him manage and think through his successes on the court as well. All right everybody, that's our show for today. Please share any feedback or suggestions of what topics you guys want to hear next. But you gotta go like comment. Subscribe to no free lunch on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.