Dave DeFore (2:58)

Ho, ho, ho. A common greeting is that. Where does that come from?

Capital One Advertiser (3:02)

What do you mean?

Esper Henny (3:03)

It's Santa, of course.

Dave DeFore (3:04)

Yeah.

Esper Henny (3:06)

I've even got the H hat.

Dave DeFore (3:09)

I'm.

Esper Henny (3:09)

Putting on my shoulder. Like. Like one of those guys who sweat, you know, and they've just put the towel on the shoulder. Anyways.

Jared Weiss (3:16)

Hello, Terry.

Dave DeFore (3:17)

Claire, being a guy who sweats and is from the South, I resent that comment. Also, a guy who sweats. Cooper Flag put into work last night. The Mavericks going against the Nuggets. Look, second night of a back to back, like, we can. We can make a lot of excuses, but you still got to play the game.

Jared Weiss (3:33)

Yep.

Dave DeFore (3:34)

Mavericks pick up. What I have to say is an impressive win for a team that has looks like it's kind of finding its footing a little bit since AD has come back. And they. They put Cooper Flag in, in my opinion, in a better role where he's playing with. With other, you know, with guards, guys who can handle and pass.

Esper Henny (3:53)

Yeah.

Dave DeFore (3:53)

All of a sudden this team looks like a real basketball team. And, you know, tip of the cap to Nico. You see the vision. If Kyrie was out there, like, this team is pretty good.

Esper Henny (4:01)

This team would be really good. If Kyrie was out here. Yeah, absolutely. Over the last month, they've been around like, middle of the pack on offense, middle of the pack on defense, which is a far cry for them being 26th overall on offense to start the year. It's just been a world of a difference. To your point. Yes. They're playing more guards. Ryan Nemhardt is playing more often. Brandon Williams is playing more often. That's allowed Cooper Flag to slot into a more comfortable position as an offensive player. And it's also allowed him to expend more energy defensively. Like, you see some of these weak side rim protection rotations that he's doing, or he'll shoot the gap and fill a passing lane and immediately cause a deflection or help the Mavericks get out and running. Like, there's so many things that he can do. And defensively, when he has that energy and his mind isn't completely focused on, hey, I can't turn this ball over because I'm the point guard for this team also. Well, you have to say Anthony Davis has been huge for him. Absolutely massive.

Dave DeFore (5:03)

Yeah. But yeah, I do want to say Speaking of him playing point guard, look, tomorrow we've got the morning Shoot around over on YouTube. If you guys haven't joined us for our live stream, we're going to be taking mailbag questions tomorrow. I'm stealing a mailbag question from the Shoot around for tonight's show from longtime listener Oscar. He wants to know what do you think about Dallas's decision to have Cooper Flag run the point again, which has happened. He had nine assists in the game last night. And ask like, why is it working better now than it was?

Esper Henny (5:36)

Because I think they're finding the right moments to do it. If you look at this game, they ran it in clutch opportunities more often. So to close the game. And why are they doing it in those moments? Because they eventually want Cooper Flag to be that guy for them. Right in those moments. And we've seen it all across the NBA. You need those jumbo wings to create for you. You think about Jayson Tatum on the Boston Celtics. You think about LeBron James for a decade plus and what he's been able to do. Those jumbo wings have dominated the NBA for as long as the NBA has been around. And so Cooper Flag is that type of archetype. He can lean into those characteristics when the going gets tough. And in clutch moments, you need his mid range scoring. I think he has a really great knack for being clutch. He hit a huge shot tonight as well. But I remember against the Pistons he also settled into a mid range shot and scored. So he just, he's not afraid of the moment. And the crazy thing is he's 19 years old. He had 33, 9 and 9. He's the youngest player, youngest player ever.

Dave DeFore (6:40)

To put up those stats, man.

Esper Henny (6:42)

That's crazy to think about. Think of all the talent and young talent we've had in this league. You know, in our Christmas Day special, we Talked about how LeBron had this absurd Christmas Day game as a rookie.

Dave DeFore (6:53)

What if I'm expecting Cooper Flag? He's on this run, man. And I look, the room for growth is so obvious with him too. You know, you look at where he's at right now, it's such a high floor. You know, he shot one free throw in the game. I mean, this is a guy he's not even getting to the line yet.

Esper Henny (7:11)

Shooting night too.

Dave DeFore (7:12)

When you consider the motor that he's got, his ability to put it on the floor, get his, get his head down and get to the basket, I think those free throw numbers will go up. I mean, this guy, I mean, I'm Starting to believe the hype, you know, the early struggles or whatever. I think if maybe tainted what people think about him. But the guy right now, I mean, we can talk about Con Caneple as the rookie of the year or whatever because he's been doing it a little bit longer. And I will say, man, that guy's a.

Esper Henny (7:39)

He looks incredible.

Dave DeFore (7:39)

He's a shooter. But Cooper Flag's not far off even on the season as a whole.

Esper Henny (7:44)

I'm looking at this entire class as a whole and I think you have five, maybe six, maybe more, all NBA guys, like future, all NBA players in concert. Nipple and Cooper Flag and Dylan Harper and Derrick Queen. And I'm sure I'm missing somebody, so I apologize for doing so. But like the rookie class is absolutely stacked and the fact that they're already impacting the game at a high level, it just goes to show you that this class is exactly what people touted it to be.

Dave DeFore (8:14)

So yeah, let's talk about the Nugget side of this a little bit because look, they lost and this is a team that, that shouldn't lose to the Mavericks. Even on the second night of a back to back. It was a close game, but the Mavericks really own the majority of the game. The. The Nuggets make a. A really nice run in the second half. They had a 47 point third quarter, which was insane.

Esper Henny (8:34)

Y had nine assists in that quarter, which is crazy.

Dave DeFore (8:38)

Jamal Murray goes off again. 14 assists for Jokic and Murray, right, they combined for 60 points and 28 assists. That is the story here, right, is that every single thing that the Nuggets have going on offense is those two guys and oh yeah, Cam Johnson hurt his knee and now they're down a third starter. This game ends on a Peyton Watson missed shot. That would have been either Christian Brown, Cam Johnson or Aaron Gordon in any other circumstance. So, you know, again, you tip the cap to the, to the Mavs. This game's probably not close if the Nuggets are at full strength. But now they got to find a way again. Even though they've been unhealthy to start the year and had the best start in franchise history, man, as it just. The hits keep coming.

Esper Henny (9:32)

I think that's why they added this depth though. Like, I think that's why Jonas Valentunas is here. That's why Tim Hardaway Jr. Is here. That's why Bruce Brown is here. They've also leaned on some of their other young guys and a Julian Strother and a Jalen Pickett. I just think They're a deeper team than they've ever been. This is probably the deepest team Nicola Jokic and Jamal Murray have ever had around them. And this is what's allowing them to kind of deal with these blows. Now losing Cam Johnson, to your point, is going to hurt them, especially when it comes to the extra creation department. Now there's going to be so much pressure on Murray, on Jokic to do every single thing. How does that bleed into their. How exhausted they are, how tired they get? I mean if we look back and maybe in January they've lost a couple games point to this stretch where they're going to be injured and it's all those two guys that have to do everything. I think that's the main factor for them. I guess midway through this season, especially through the lulls of the season, how they deal with tired legs. But overall the depth is the reason. They'll be fine. I think they'll be okay. But.

Dave DeFore (10:37)

And they got the wolves on Christmas Day, which.

Capital One Advertiser (10:40)

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Esper Henny (10:41)

Tough one.

Dave DeFore (10:41)

Wow. I mean, look again, if Jokic. We'll see what happens. That guy when. When the chips are down, it does seem like he finds a way to kind of step up a little bit. Let's talk about the Hawks. Trey Young has been back. How many games he played since he come back? S Three games played Three games.

Esper Henny (10:59)

The Hawks have played four. They've lost all four of them and they gave up a hundred and actually they gave up like a million points.

Dave DeFore (11:09)

Yeah, a couple. Disgusting. By the way, no basketball game should see 300 points in regulation.

Esper Henny (11:16)

That was absurd. I can't believe I watched that. That was like watching Globetrotters game. But no, they. They improved.

Andrew Schlecht (11:23)

The Bul.

Esper Henny (11:24)

Hawks did improve. It was not 152 to 150. It was in the 120s this time. But the Bulls still won.

Dave DeFore (11:31)

Yeah.

Esper Henny (11:32)

And so the question is Hawks been off to a bad start with Trey Young. What comes next? Is this a Trey Young issue?

Dave DeFore (11:39)

Look, we talked about this when Trey went down like Nikhil Alexander Walker really plugs into that starting lineup very nicely. He does the two way play. It allows Jalen Johnson to be more of the playmaker. And we talked about how he. He's a Swiss army knife. I still stand on talent and I still think Trey Young is a supreme talent in the NBA. I think that this guy again, what he can do for you offensively, there's not a lot of guards that can do this. It's just whether it's a good fit for this team. Like are they better off having the two way guy or having Trey. I just don't know because I mean, we know come playoff time that Trey is a target. It's a, it's a pick on league. They're going to pick on him. Now all of a sudden your defense is scrambling to cover. And then offensively, I don't know. He's not as much of a collaborative player as Nikhil Alexander Walker. Right. He doesn't play as much off the ball.

Esper Henny (12:34)

We coming into the season, both of us said that this is the perfect type of team around Trey Young.

Dave DeFore (12:40)

Right, Right.

Esper Henny (12:41)

But that's a hypothetical. You have to see how it looks with him incorporated into the lineup. And I think part of that is buy in on Trey to be a guy who can work off the ball more often. When he got hurt, they were running these cutting actions. Jalen Johnson was handling the ball more. Nikhil Alexander Walker was handling the ball more. They looked better offensively, but then they would go through stretches where they couldn't create at all. Right. That's where you need Trae Young. There's moments in times where Trey can really amp things up for them. I think they'll be okay. I think they'll actually be better. And truthfully, like you said, their ceiling is much higher when Trey is on this team. It's just about putting it all together and buying in on what their philosophy is, you know?

Dave DeFore (13:25)

Yep. Look, they've got to figure out the center rotation. Yeah, that is amazingis now. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Esper Henny (13:32)

I don't know how they're going to go with that.

Dave DeFore (13:33)

Anyway, look, I was still. I'm not as high on the Hawks now as I was coming into the year, sadly. But you know, I still think that they're a better team than what we've seen here, here recently. Guys, stick around after the break. We're going to talk to Jared Weiss who was in San Antonio to watch the spurs beat the Thunder again.

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Dave DeFore (16:41)

Oh, the Thunder lose to the spurs again. Our man Jared Weiss was in the building because, you know, covers the spurs for us over at the Athletic. Jared, I gotta ask you. The spurs move to two and oh, over the Thunder. Have they broken the Thunder? Have they figured them out?

Jared Weiss (16:59)

Oh, God, it's over, guys. The Thunders. The Thunder dynasty lasted one season because Devin Vassell had like 14 points. Or actually it was. It was Harrison Barnes with his 18. He finished with 18. He finished with 20.

Dave DeFore (17:13)

20.

Andrew Schlecht (17:14)

Look at that.

Jared Weiss (17:15)

Harrison Barnes are 20 points. So just like wrap it up. J. Dub Traydom chat A bomb Hartenstein. He was okay while it lasted. Like, okay, so this has been the question is, is this a rivalry and you ask Wemby. You asked Mitch Johnson, I asked sell this question. They would say no. The Thunder just won an insane amount of games last season. They won a championship, and then they won an insane amount of games to start this season. The spurs have had their number these last two games and, you know, have their number, you know, is a connotation of like, oh, they figured it out and everything is different now. They won two games and they did a good job. And hey, the fourth quarter, they destroyed the Thunder and their offense was humming, their defense looked good. So the spurs are not better than the Thunder yet. Obviously not. Let's not be ridiculous. But this matchup is going their way, and the Thunder need to show something in particular, like Chet Holmgren. Offensively, he needs to find a way to get really involved with these games. And the spurs, their defensive pressure, especially in the fourth quarter, has been really effective against the Thunder team. And they've done a good job of taking everybody out of the game besides SGA and J Dub, you know, and J Dub had to take a lot of shots early on to even get involved, and then they didn't really do a ton in the second half. So the spurs have the recipe to beat the Thunder. The spurs have the recipe to beat anybody in the league. Apparently the sports, that doesn't mean that they're better, but they're doing this. And Wemby is like, what, what do we think he is right now? Like, 70% of his of his capability, 70% of what he was doing before he got hurt, which wasn't even his best basketball. Like, they have a lot of room to improve here.

Esper Henny (18:55)

Still coming off the bench, Victor Wyama.

Dave DeFore (18:57)

He'S going for six man of the year. I, I, I mean, why change it? You can, you can play French vanilla still, like, you can get into that lineup. I mean, it's not, you know.

Jared Weiss (19:07)

Well, the thing is, if you, if he wants six man of the year, he has to beat Calvin Johnson out, who actually might be the sixth man of the year right now. He had 25 points in this game. It's the same amount of minutes as we.

Esper Henny (19:18)

Jared. Outside of the Thunder, OKC and San Antonio rivalry, the spurs have been playing awesome basketball this month. 9 and 1. They're a top 10 offense, top 10 defense. Maybe the thing that might surprise people the most is how good they've looked offensively because of the amount of questions that we had coming into the season about it. As your light goes out, what have you seen outside of the OKC games with what this team has looked like over the last month or so.

Jared Weiss (19:50)

I would say that this last game here epitomized what they've been all year, which is that they've been a high pressure defense that they create turnovers. Well, they run well off of those turnovers. You know, they had 10 steals in this game. They had 19 fast break points to five for the Thunder. Honestly, the crazy part was they had 24 free throw attempts and the Thunder at seven like it was. Shay got to the line two and a half times and then Isaiah Joe is the only other guy that got to the line. Like the spurs thing has been, they can put pressure on you with their guards because they have a bunch of guards that are good at on ball. They are aggressive at the passing lanes. We saw like Dylan Harper had just a phenomenal second half. Really like that third quarter, he was phenomenal defensively and that really blew this game open. And he finished with 10 assists. And they just like they all, you know, they have three point guards, right? And Harper's already really good. Castle's been, Castle's been very good this season. Like, he's. He. I don't know if he's going to be an all star just because there's so much talent in the league, but he's like clearly on track to. He could be an all star very soon. And then like between those guys and Darren Fox, there's always two guys having a really good game. And so teams don't get a break from the spurs having someone that can carve up their defense. All three of those guys have been getting like two feet in the paint over and over and over again. And all three of them do it in slightly different ways. Like, Harper is kind of like a combination of what Castle and Fox can do. Then Fox is just so savvy. And then Castle, he just kind of like gets in the split stance and just kind of split stances his way all the way through the lane. Then he just like jumps. Yeah, then he just like jumps in the air and hangs in the air forever.

Esper Henny (21:24)

Yes.

Jared Weiss (21:24)

You know, I can. You call it a decel dribble. If he just walks into the shot.

Dave DeFore (21:28)

Like it's a stone cold Steve Austin dribble is what it really is. You know, the way he walks to the, to the ring, it's the same way that, that he dribbles to the basket.

Esper Henny (21:39)

I look, he decelerates the ball.

Dave DeFore (21:41)

It's funny that you brought this up because, you know, you look at the box score and you see Darren Fox scores six points. Dylan Harper scores four points. Those guys combined for 19 assists. The, the spurs were getting looks early and often and it paid off throughout this game. The way that they are able to churn possessions in the paint for like this offense, these three guards, it's incredible. I want to talk about de' Aaron Fox because this is an all star guy who, who worked to get himself to San Antonio and he is gonna struggle to make another all star team. This is actually a pretty rare scenario. I actually, he is playing adult basketball, like to a degree. Like we talked about Harrison Barnes when the spurs signed him. It's like, all right, get a, get a vet out there. This is a whole nother level of sacrifice that we're seeing from de' Aaron Fox. Like, what is it like when you watch a guy like that defer to a first and second year player like Dylan Harper and Steph Castle? Like that is. That is maybe never happened before.

Jared Weiss (22:45)

Here's the thing. I think you're probably right. It never feels like anyone's deferring on that team. They, their offense is feeling very naturally egalitarian. And this is what's, I think what's really been special about what's happening with the spurs this season is they, they couldn't, they couldn't make their offense happen the way they designed it until Wemby went down. And it's like they needed to lose Wemby in order to have the freedom for them all to figure out how everyone else plays together. Because it was a lot of just figuring out how do we play through Wemby. And it's, it's been even more of a blessing in disguise that Wemby has been a little limited in how much he can play and he's coming off the bench. And so it's, it just forces them to start their games with their overall identity. And the hard part for them has been figuring out how to get Wemby involved. Like Wemby is just not involved as much as he usually would be. And they're still winning and now they're beating the Thunder and they were close to the Knicks. Like there's, there's not a lot separating them from the top of the NBA right now. So the, I don't really ever see them really having to sacrifice. It just kind of happens naturally that they spread the wealth really well, you know, and they have a nine man rotation that's as deep as any team in the NBA. They're facing the team with probably the best nine man rotation and they're going tit for tat with them on that. So, you know, this team is. Is just. It's spread very evenly and it's going to change every single night. Who's the guy that scores a lot? And every single one of these games, it's like Fox has a down game, Castle has a lot of points, Harper has a lot of steals and assists. And then it just kind of flips around and these guys. I think what's going to hurt Fox for the All Star thing is just that he's going to have a lot of nights where he doesn't put up big numbers, and it's going to hurt his averages a little bit.

Andrew Schlecht (24:27)

Yeah.

Jared Weiss (24:28)

And I think he's fine with it. I don't think he cares. He doesn't seem to care.

Esper Henny (24:31)

When you're winning. When you're winning, it does not matter. That's the part about it. Like, when you're nine and one over the last month and everybody's firing all on all cylinders, it doesn't matter if you're not getting the numbers. Also, Jared Weiss says the spurs don't need Victor Wyama anymore.

Andrew Schlecht (24:46)

Clearly.

Dave DeFore (24:47)

That's right. I figured out the offense.

Esper Henny (24:49)

They figured out the offense.

Jared Weiss (24:50)

He's a backup big, who needs them.

Esper Henny (24:52)

Honestly, the question is, like, how do they incorporate him into this whole thing moving forward? Because they did find an identity without him. You know, the, like, the post touches stuff that they were doing went before he got hurt. How does that work now? But looking ahead to Christmas Day, what do you expect going into okc? Because it was loud in that arena in San Antonio. They had the Fiesta court. I. I saw the post game with Victor Wembanyama doing the soccer clap, which I love, by the way. I need more of that.

Dave DeFore (25:24)

Yes.

Esper Henny (25:24)

Yeah. You talk about the travel. Dave actually mentions it in our Christmas Day preview. The spurs fans will travel to okc. What kind of environment are you expecting in Oklahoma?

Jared Weiss (25:35)

Probably an environment like this. And, you know, I just started covering the spurs this season, and I've been waiting for one of these nights where the crowd goes crazy and my ears are ringing. I mean, I protect my ears. I always have earplugs in. But, like, I had to do that. I have.

Dave DeFore (25:51)

Oh, I do it in San Antonio especially. It is the loudest DJ system in. In the NBA. Sorry to.

Jared Weiss (25:59)

Is it really?

Dave DeFore (26:00)

Yes. It is so loud. I do not miss that. The crowd's great, though. Sorry, Jared, not to interrupt.

Jared Weiss (26:06)

Well, the crowd's been okay this year. It hasn't been great this year. It's been better for sure than it has been the past. But it hasn't been electric, like, what I've been used to going to. You know, I lived in the Northeast for a long time, and you have the three of the craziest fan bases up in the Northeast. And so this. This game, I pulled out my apple watch, and I turned on, like, the noise meter to see how. How many decibels. It was, like, almost hitting 110, which is, like, kind of dangerous, honestly. And that's. That's the kind of environment they're trying to cultivate here in San Antonio. And the Thunder fans have been doing that, you know, when the team has been competitive for a long time, they've had a great fan base. And so I think we're expecting to see the same thing there in Oklahoma. And this is all coming from, like, there's a reason why the spurs fans were louder in this game than any other game that I've been to in San Antonio so far this season. This is the rivalry. This is the rivalry in the game right now. And you asked on the title rivalry, and I get that. They, Especially the Spurs, they do not want to claim this to be a rivalry because they're trying to be humble. They're trying not to piss off the Thunder too much here. They don't want the Thunder to be trying any harder against them. It's a smart thing to do, but we get to decide. Yeah, we get to call. We're the media. We get to tell you if it's. And then the fans get to decide if they agree.

Andrew Schlecht (27:21)

Exactly.

Jared Weiss (27:21)

And we all feel like this is turning into something special because we all know where this is going, and we're a long ways away from it. Yeah, we.

Dave DeFore (27:29)

I know. We're there, Jared. No, Dave is already there. Just say right now, we have a lot of. We have a lot of spurs fans that listen to this show, and we have a lot of Thunder fans.

Jared Weiss (27:40)

Hi, everybody.

Dave DeFore (27:40)

Listen to this show. And I think the ethical hoops comment from Victor Wyama struck a chord with absolutely. Of those fan bases. I. I think that there's a reason that you see when he and Chet are on the court, they go at each other a little bit harder. I mean, it's a rivalry. I think the spurs look at the Thunder as what they want to be, and that's awesome. It's fun. I mean, especially because they're both young teams. I mean, they're both still hungry.

Esper Henny (28:10)

Just add this, like, they're both young teams. They also have a pretty heated rivalry going back to like the KD Russ years at the same time.

Dave DeFore (28:18)

It was a pretty good Tim Duncan's not gonna be out there doing anything. I mean, like, no, I think the rivalry that's happened right now is as real as any old one. Yeah, for the fans, of course, for the fans. And spurs fans, look, they are relishing this win just like they did last weekend. And, and I'm telling you guys, don't sleep on the spurs winning on Christmas Day. I can feel it.

Capital One Advertiser (28:42)

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Jared Weiss (28:43)

Look, but if they do, if they do, this sure as hell's a rivalry at that point.

Dave DeFore (28:47)

There's no question that story. All right, guys, that's it for this show. Thank you to Jared for hanging out. Thanks to Esper Henny as always. I'm Dave Dufour. Merry Christmas everybody. Have a safe and happy holiday and we'll talk to you guys next week.

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Dave DeFore (30:33)

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