Steph Curry over LeBron? | Top 25 NBA players of the 21st century

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic NBA Daily

Episode: Steph Curry over LeBron? | Top 25 NBA players of the 21st century

Date: November 10, 2025
Hosts: Dave DuFour, Fred Katz, Esperance A Henny

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into The Athletic’s just-released list of the Top 25 NBA Players of the 21st Century (since 2000), sparking debate over player rankings, legacies, and the criteria used for selection. The hosts debate the most contentious points at the top of the list—particularly Steph Curry vs. LeBron James—ponder the placement of modern stars like Nikola Jokic and Luka Dončić, dissect the ongoing point guard debates, and address overlooked greats and honorable mentions.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Top 5 Players of the 21st Century

• List Order:
  1. LeBron James
  2. Steph Curry
  3. Tim Duncan
  4. Kobe Bryant
  5. Nikola Jokic
     (02:30)
• Curry vs. LeBron Debate:
  • Esperance: Puts Curry ahead of LeBron, citing Curry’s “evolution of the sport at every level,” his offensive gravity, and the fear he instills in defenses. Emphasizes Curry’s revolutionary impact:

    “He caused an evolution of the sport at every single level. And he’s the most dangerous person to ever step on an NBA basketball court ever.” (03:04 - Esperance)

  • Fred’s Rebuttal: Fiercely argues LeBron is #1, citing his longevity, all-around dominance, and ability to exceed the "chosen one" hype:

    “LeBron is one of the two best players of all time, maybe the best player of all time… Certainly has done it in terms of longevity. He is the best player ever to touch a basketball.” (04:39 - Fred)

  • Dave: Highlights that no player has ever met and exceeded such high expectations from day one:

    “He’s the chosen one and somehow… became the one or two greatest players of all time… that’s something.” (06:56 - Dave)

2. Peak vs. Longevity, and Defense

• Hosts agree: LeBron’s Defense in Miami and two-way play is unmatched among modern stars:

  “Prime LeBron defensively was ridiculous. Was an all-defensive caliber guy. Steph is solid, sure, …not as good of a rebounder as LeBron.” (06:30 - Fred)

3. Kobe vs. Jokic for Spots 4 and 5

• Kobe gets the nod for longevity and championships:

  “Jokic, when he continues to do this for more time… then, Kobe gets that mantle.” (09:45 - Fred)

• Jokic’s Offense: Hosts acknowledge Jokic's historic offensive peak, but ring counts still sway the argument for now:

  “The difference… is the ring, kind of winning it. At some point it has to be more than just putting up the triple doubles and winning the MVPs.” (10:30 - Esperance)

4. How Many Rings Can Jokic Win?

• Nuggets’ Contest Window:

  “I think he can win this year. I think the Nuggets are poised to try and win this year… this is a very good opportunity.” (11:34 - Dave)

• Thunder and Parity:

  “Denver… fought like hell against Oklahoma City last year, gave them the toughest time during their entire playoff run…” (12:14 - Fred)

5. Point Guards: Ranking Russ, Paul, Nash, Harden

• Russell Westbrook at 16 sparks debate about greatness vs. divisiveness:

  “I think probably no one is happy with Russ being at 16, which is exactly the way it should be…” (18:10 - Fred) “He’s probably the best rebounding guard of all time… one of the best energy players of all time.” (18:57 - Fred)

• Chris Paul (13), Steve Nash (15), James Harden (added to discussion):
  • Peak vs. Longevity:

    “If you go peak for peak, you could argue James Harden had the highest peak…” (20:02 - Dave)
    “Longevity, and I would probably say Chris Paul…” (20:36 - Dave)

  • Steve Nash’s MVPs and Influence:

    “One of the things I see too often is people crapping on Steve Nash’s two MVPs… He changed the league.” (22:00, 22:54 - Fred) “If they name something after you… you’ve done it.” (23:18 - Esperance)

• Allen Iverson’s Poetic Placement Behind Westbrook:

  “I’ve always thought of Westbrook as kind of the Iverson of his generation…” (23:38 - Fred) “Probably no one defines [‘go get your own bucket’ basketball] more than Allen Iverson…” (24:10 - Dave)

6. Modern Superstars: Luka Doncic vs. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA)

• Shea at 25, Luka at 19:
  Hosts challenge the ranking, noting SGA’s historic 2024–25 MVP, ring, scoring title and two-way play against Luka’s cumulative All-NBAs and playoff heroics.

  “Luka has not had a season like SGA had last year… basically a clean sweep for Shea. A perfect season in all regards…” (26:03 - Dave) “Shea’s such a good defender that I think it pushes him a little bit over the top…” (27:50 - Fred)

• Fred’s Admission:

  “You had Luka Doncic at 19, and you did not rank Shea in your top 25.”
  “If I’m being honest, that just sounds like a royal mess up.” (29:12 - Dave & Fred)

7. Honorable Mentions, Near Misses & Underappreciated Stars

• Draymond Green at 27:

  “To me, we left him off. Guys, this is the greatest defender of his generation… another person who caused an evolution in the sport…” (31:53 - Esperance)

• Other names discussed: Tracy McGrady, Manu Ginobili ("talent-wise, you could argue him over Melo"), Pau Gasol, Vince Carter (received the last vote):

  “Vince Carter was phenomenal… put aside the fact he was a legit superstar… and later became an awesome late career role player…” (34:05, 34:39 - Fred) “The ability to have that sort of awareness and to be able to adjust is very rare in human beings—not just in basketball players.” (36:30 - Fred)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments (by Timestamp)

• Curry vs. LeBron, Fear Factor:

  “You have to guard him 94 feet… defense is running scared… Steph Curry just puts the fear of everything in you.” (03:04 - Esperance)

• Fred’s LeBron Defense:

  “You have not seen fear or danger until you see my reaction to you not having LeBron number one on this list…” (03:55 - Fred)

• On Kobe vs. Jokic:

  “Peak for peak, you could argue that Jokic… has been better than Kobe Bryant’s peak. But, defense matters.” (09:45 - Dave)

• On Steve Nash’s Place in History:

  “The Nash dribble… has changed basketball at every single level because keeping your dribble alive is super important.” (23:18 - Esperance)

• Comparing Westbrook & Iverson:

  “I’ve always thought of Westbrook as kind of the Iverson of his generation… lower efficiency guard, who is so much better than just the efficiency says…” (23:38 - Fred)

• Luka vs. Shea, Honesty in Rankings:

  “If I’m being honest, that just sounds like a royal mess up.” (29:20 - Fred)

• On aging gracefully (Vince Carter):

  “The ability to have that sort of awareness and to be able to adjust is very rare in human beings.” (36:30 - Fred)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:48 — Introduction & purpose of episode
• 02:29 — Reveal of Top 5 players (LeBron, Steph, Duncan, Kobe, Jokic)
• 03:04-06:49 — Curry vs. LeBron debate
• 07:20-10:30 — Kobe vs. Jokic for top 5; championship context
• 11:34-12:59 — Jokic’s title window, parity conversation
• 12:59-18:10 — Point guard segment: Russ, Paul, Nash, Harden
• 18:10-20:54 — Fixing Russ’ ranking, polarizing player debate
• 20:54-24:52 — Peak vs. longevity for point guards, Nash’s MVP legacy
• 24:52-25:31 — Comparing Iverson & Westbrook, context of past eras
• 25:53-29:14 — Luka vs. SGA, modern superstars and ranking challenges
• 31:53-33:41 — Draymond Green as a snub, Manu Ginobili’s underrated greatness
• 34:00-37:33 — Vince Carter, aging gracefully, late-career transformations
• 37:39-38:02 — MVPs that made Top 25 without winning MVP & wrap-up remarks

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Conclusion

This lively, insightful episode showcases the passion and nuance behind player ranking debates, reflecting on how legacies are shaped by not just stats and rings but by impact, context, and even personality. The hosts are candid about their biases, hiccups in voting, and the inherent challenges in comparing eras and careers. The episode is an engaging listen for anyone seeking perspective on NBA greatness beyond mere numbers.

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Read the full rankings and player profiles at The Athletic.

Transcript

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[Esperance A Henny]

Good morning and welcome back to the NBA Daily. I'm Dave Dufour here with Fred Katz and Esperaheni special podcast. We're talking top 25 of the century that since 2000. Guys, the list just came out on the athletic. I don't know, off the top of your head, anything controversial here that you want to scream about, like yell at the clouds?

[Dave Dufour]

Hmm, controversial? I don't know, it's kind of hard to be controversial about a top 25. No, I'm kidding. It's very. It's very easy to be controversial about a top 25. Listen, I think. You know what, Dave? I want to get right to it with LeBron and Steph Curry.

[Esperance A Henny]

Oh.

[Dave Dufour]

Because I know you have takes, I know you have thoughts and opinions on the whole LeBron and Steph one and two. Because that's what it ended up being LeBron James, number one, Steph Curry, number two, Tim Duncan, number three, Kobe Bryant, number four, and Jokic number five.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

How do we feel about the top five in there?

[Esperance A Henny]

I mean, I, I think that that's probably about right on the top five. Although I, I, Yic and Kobe is an interesting conversation to me for that four and five spot. And I. We'll get into that in a minute because we'll talk rings. But with Stephen, LeBron and Fred, like, you know, we've. We've done this together for a few years. Like, you kind of know my opinion here. I put Steph number one. And the. The reason is because he caused an evolution of the sport at every single level. And he's the most dangerous person to ever step on an NBA basketball court ever. You have to guard him 94ft. I, I've just. Defense is running scared the moment the game starts, every second he's on the court, and he has the same number of rings as LeBron. I just. I feel like that has to matter. So that peak for Steph Curry is just insane. And I understand that a lot of this, like LeBron, I mean, incredible longevity and career and has collected statistics for sure. But, you know, Steph Curry just puts the fear of everything in you, Dave.

[Fred Katz]

Here's my reaction to that. You talk about Steph Curry being dangerous and Steph Curry putting the fear in people. You have not seen fear or danger. Until you see my reaction to you not having LeBron number one on this list, then you will incur wrath. That is when you will finally understand what fear is. The next time I see you in person and you're not going to be saved by the fact that we're over just some digital universe and I could actually go at you. It's crazy. Dave. I. Steph is awesome. He's great. He's yada, yada, is the best. I think the same stuff as everybody else.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

LeBron is one of the two best players of all time, Maybe the best player of all time. Certainly has done it in terms of longevity. He is the best player ever to touch basketball.

[Esperance A Henny]

I would agree with that.

[Fred Katz]

Racking up stats, you're talking about.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, that was disrespectful. That was stats.

[Fred Katz]

You're talking about him like he's Monte Ellis. Are you kidding me?

[Esperance A Henny]

That was a little disrespectful. Okay.

[Fred Katz]

My goodness.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

Ridiculous. The guy's been to the finals 900 times. That's an actual stat. 900 times he's been to the Finals. All right, that's. That's. Steph is the best shooter of all time. Yeah, he caused a revolution. LeBron caused everybody to lose their minds because nobody knew that a guy this athletic could also be this skilled and this great of a passer and this much of a genius on the court on his way to apparently just racking up stats. One of those stats is the all time scoring leader. Yeah, but he's racking. He's racking up stats. He's right. He's racking up stats. He's like, he's like 20, 23 Nicola Vuchevic, you know, like, he's just racking up stats. Like, come on, man.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, I agree.

[Esperance A Henny]

No, for real, he's. He has had the greatest career from a longevity standpoint, maybe if anybody in any sport ever. It's like him and Tom Brady, right?

[Fred Katz]

LeBron at his peak was a premier defensive player.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dave Dufour]

He was fear. Yeah, you talk about fear.

[Fred Katz]

He was feared a game changer defensively, like low man. LeBron in Miami was like, holy crap, this dude is insane. Just in passing lanes as a weak side help defender. He could switch on to anybody. Like in an era when like, no one could switch on to anybody.

[Esperance A Henny]

Like, yeah, prime.

[Fred Katz]

LeBron defensively was ridiculous. Was an all defensive caliber guy. Steph is solid, sure, solid, totally solid handsy, super smart, good positional defender, pretty good around screens, great rebounder. Has not as good of a rebounder as LeBron.

[Esperance A Henny]

Well, definitely not.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, okay, so come on, man.

[Dave Dufour]

I'll also just add that, like, there's probably no player in NBA history that has met and exceeded expectations like LeBron James. Oh, yeah, definitely from day one, he's the chosen one and somehow some way exceeded all those expectations to become the one or two greatest players of all time. Like, that's something.

[Esperance A Henny]

But it's, you know, it's funny to talk about the top 25 of the 2000s and LeBron is basically been it. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's his run the entire century and it doesn't even look like it's going to end at any point. Although, you know, at this point in the season, like, we haven't seen him yet, but that in and of itself is. Is pretty incredible. And, and of course, like part of the reason why, you know, it's hard to argue even when people say, okay, LeBron is. Is better than Michael Jordan.

[Dave Dufour]

Right.

[Esperance A Henny]

Even that argument, I don't argue against it anymore because of the career that he's. That he's put up Tim Duncan, 3. I think like makes just a ton of sense. You know, he, he won everything that you could win. Obviously one of the greatest defensive players ever. The difference between Kobe at 4 and Jokic at 5. Guys, how are you feeling there?

[Fred Katz]

I feel good about it. Longevity. Longevity. Yeah, longevity matters.

[Esperance A Henny]

Championships matter too.

[Fred Katz]

Championships absolutely matter. I know it's become this sort of meme in our extremist culture of like championships, either they mean everything. You don't have as many championships as this guy, so you're not ahead of them on the rankings. Robert, or he is racking up championship stats, or it's the other way where it's like, stop talking about this crap. But like they, they matter, especially when you're the dude who's helped leaving him there. And Kobe got three with Shaq, two without Shaq. Incredible playoff performer. Incredible, incredible, clutch performer. And you know, for these rankings, I think people should know like we're only great, we're not grading just people who happen to play in this century. It's only their numbers from this century. So like, so like Shaq, for example, had about a half a decade of like Shaq, like dominance during this century. So Shaq ends up falling to the bottom half of the top 10 on this list. Kobe, you still got, you know, 14, 13 years of awesome Kobess on this. It's pretty, it's pretty killer. That's, that's a big difference to me. Jokic, when he continues to do this for more time, which I anticipate he will, I'm not doubting that. Eventually for sure. However, until then, Kobe, Kobe gets that mantle.

[Dave Dufour]

The only argument against that, and like I, I generally agree, is that, you know, like peak for peak, you could argue that Jokic, the last three, four years of his peak has been better than Kobe Bryant's peak. But then on the other side, like if I'm arguing with myself here, defense matters. And Kobe for better or worse has racked up a lot of all defense nods and maybe some of those were off of resume and hype and whatnot. But like he is a good defender. He's a good two way guy who can guard his position and guard multiple positions too. So like that should matter for something if we are going back to the Steph Lebron debate where one of them is obviously a clear two way player, dominant defensive player, and Steph is just okay as a defense defender, you know.

[Esperance A Henny]

And, and the thing is, Jokic offensively has had the best season of anybody for like five years running, you know, and he seems to one up himself every single year, but they got one title. The MVPs that he's got, that's. I mean, that's amazing. But the difference between him and the. The four guys ahead of him on this list. LeBron, Steph, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant. Right. It's. It's the ring kind of winning it at some point. Like, it has to be more than just putting up the triple doubles and winning the MVPs. And it's funny to say this. I mean, he's the best player in the world, right? I mean, he's a winning player. This is. This isn't like, you know, we're not giving the Charles Barkley conversation where it's like he. He was close but can't get there. It's also a pretty competitive league. I mean, how many more. How many more rings can Jokic get? Let's just like, being realistic, thinking about where the league is now. From a parody standpoint, it's hard to repeat even, much less, you know, to stay competitive for as long as the Nuggets have. I mean, how many more rings you guys feel Jokic has, you know, available?

[Dave Dufour]

I think he can win this year. I think the Nuggets are poised to try and win this year. I mean, Fred, I don't know how you feel about the Nuggets this year and their chances, but this is a very good opportunity for them. Even despite the Thunder being awesome and the east having the Cavs and Knicks like the Nuggets are, are involved in that conversation. Regardless, just because of Nikola Jokic and the added depth that they have, it just. I think this year is a very, very good year for the Nuggets to try and win it. Fred, how do you feel?

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, I mean, I think they're the second best team in the league right now. I'm with you. They're the second best team in the league. And. And look, Oklahoma.

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[Fred Katz]

It's Oklahoma City. And then everybody else. And I think everybody's on the same page as that.

[Dave Dufour]

Yep.

[Fred Katz]

However, we have seen, you know, even when it's this team and everybody else, in certain years, you know, something bad happens, and all of a sudden that next team, you know, all of a sudden the Toronto Raptors, end up beating the Durant warriors in the finals because they lose Kevin Durant and then eventually lose Klay Thompson. You know, like, sometimes something really bad happens, and there's that next team in the pecking order on top of that, Denver, with a way worse roster and way more shallow roster, fought like hell, against Oklahoma City last year gave him the toughest time during their entire playoff run, probably maybe even more so than Indiana. So yeah, I mean, then Denver could do it. They could do it this year and they, they're going to have the best player in any series they play.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah, let's say moving further down the list, the, the point guard conversation is always interesting. Obviously, like Steph was number one, but Chris Paul 13, Steve Nash 15, Russell Westbrook, 16 is very interesting to me. Fred, you know, I know that you covered Russell Westbrook obviously for a big chunk of his career. You wrote about Russell Westbrook for this project. How do you feel about Russ being 16 there? Obviously it's like the triple double guy. I mean, you know, we know about the numbers. Mvp.

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[Fred Katz]

I think it makes sense given the extreme opinions that he tends to invoke. I think they're probably. I think probably no one is happy with Russ being at 16, which is exactly the way it should be. I think half the people are probably like, how is he not top 10? He, he averaged a triple double in four different seasons in the history of the NBA. All, all other players have combined to do that twice. He did it when no one ever thought he was going to be able to do it. He just said the other night in a press conference, he's the best rebounding guard of all time. And maybe that sounds cocky. Is he wrong? He's certainly justified in feeling that way if he wants to feel that way.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, of course he is.

[Fred Katz]

I think he's probably the best rebounding guard of all time. You know, not having watched every single Oscar Robertson play, but like, the dude just on everything. He's one of the best loose ball players of all time. He's one of the, the best energy players of all time. He's one of the best, like small guards going into scrums to get the ball. Like, the guy overpowers people. And then on the other side, it's like, okay, well, he's playing for himself and he's, he's, he's, he's playing an efficient basketball and his shot selection is not good. And I'm sure the other half people are like, how is Westbrook even 16 on this? How is he even 16? No titles. Couldn't make it into the conference finals on his own. Like, how is he doing this and. Or past the first round on his own, I should say. And so I think him being at a place where everybody is probably unhappy with it is absolutely perfect because it pretty much encapsulates the way the conversation around him has been for a very long time.

[Dave Dufour]

I'm looking at like, Chris Paul, James Harden, Steve Nash, Russell Westbrook, Like, I'm adding Harden into this list.

[Esperance A Henny]

Throw Harden in there. Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Dufour]

You know, he's basically the point guard for a very, very long time, been the lead creator for a bunch of different teams, like offensive hub onto himself. And that's where it gets interesting to me because I think if you go peak for peak, you could argue James Harden had the highest peak of any of these players with that Rockets year. It was just absurd. And at the same time, you think of longevity, and I would probably say Chris Paul has the best longevity just because every single year he is able to boost an offense, make them top Tier. He's obviously, I think people have forgotten, like, young Chris Paul, New Orleans, you know, Chris Paul, where he was zipping up and down the court and was, yeah, one of the best defenders at his position. But I think that's an interesting argument. As we look up and down this list. It's peak versus longevity. And how do you weigh those two things when it comes to that position?

[Fred Katz]

You know, I mean, there's also. There's also playoff success, too, where, like, Harden has had so many games that, you know, series deciding games where he has not looked like a guy who would be on this list in those games. And that is a reason to have James Harden at 14 and not top 10, even though he's an MVP. And, you know, another guy who helped revolutionize the game in various ways. If. If I assume. I assume that Dave had Nash number two on his list because he also revolutionized the game in terms of. I also have turning the entire league.

[Esperance A Henny]

To be fair, Mike d' Antoni revolutionized the game, and Steve Nash was the tool that he used to.

[Dave Dufour]

Okay, so then Steve Kerr. Revolution.

[Fred Katz]

Steve Kerr revolutionized.

[Esperance A Henny]

No, Steve Kerr was harnessing the magic of Steph Curry to change the sport. Steve.

[Fred Katz]

Steve Ste. I like that. Steve Nash is. Is. Is in the top 15. I. I feel like one of the things that I'm gonna. Am I gonna sound like an old man right now?

[Dave Dufour]

I think I am.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yes.

[Fred Katz]

One. One of the things that I see just far too often is people crapping on Steve Nash's two MVPs.

[Dave Dufour]

Thank you.

[Fred Katz]

And in retrospect, and like, everyone in.

[Dave Dufour]

Canada thanks you, by the way, I get it.

[Fred Katz]

You can. You can look at. I'm only doing this for American Canadian relations. It's the only reason we could. We could use something. Visit positives here.

[Esperance A Henny]

This segment brought to you by Las Vegas Tourism.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, but look, I get it. The. The counting stats were not insane. Beyond the assist for Nash, he was not a defender. He was the engine behind. Adjusted to league average. Maybe the most potent regular season offense we've ever seen.

[Dave Dufour]

Yep.

[Fred Katz]

And he was playing in a way that was revolutionary. And he was the reason behind it. He made so many of those dudes, it changed the league. There is a reason why everyone in the league started doing what he did and never went away from it. And you're right. Mike Dantoni, huge credit to Mike. Dan amazingly coached.

[Esperance A Henny]

But Steve Nash, though, if they name something after you, a move like you've done, like the Nash dribble, has changed basketball at every single level because Keeping your dribble alive is super important. And people, he. He wasn't the first to. To do that, but he definitely popularized keeping dribble alive after penetration.

[Fred Katz]

So, yeah. Another small guard, by the way, on the list in this spot, right after Russell Westbrook is Allen Iverson. And I think that's quite poetic because I've always thought of Westbrook is kind of the Iverson of his generation. You know, I talk about the actions that he inspires, and I. I feel like Iverson is. Feel like Iverson is. Is very similar in that sense. Kind of this lower efficiency guard who is so much better than just the efficiency says that he's going to be. And they're just people who just latch on to both of those dudes.

[Dave Dufour]

It's always so funny to talk about efficiency in that era because, like, And Dave, you actually mentioned this yesterday, but, like, who was Allen Iverson passing the ball to? Nobody. Eric snow, Samuel D', Alembert, like Aaron McKee, like, all respect to those guys, but, like, let's be real. And also in that era, efficiency was one of those things where Tracy McGrady not the most efficient player. You know, Vince Carter had years where he was efficient, but also, like, not the most efficient player. There was a brand of basketball which was like, go get your own bucket. Go score by yourself. Be that guy for your team. And probably no one defines that more than Allen Iverson, who is. Who led a lot of offenses, forced.

[Esperance A Henny]

Him again, another guy who forced them to change the, like, to kind of change the rules a little bit. Right? Like just that crossover move that he had. I mean, I'm from Virginia, so, you know, he was ahead of me in school, but I watched him play high school football. I mean, this guy was like an amazing athlete. You mentioned, like, comparing him to Russell Westbrook. Imagine Allen Iverson with Russell Westbrook's body. You know, that was the thing that kind of held Iverson back was that he was a small guard when the league was so physical and allowed to be so physical with him. You know, the. That run that they made to the finals. Like, I remember just how beat up he was.

[Dave Dufour]

Right?

[Esperance A Henny]

He was just like, it looked like he was wrapped in ice for that entire playoff run down at the bottom of the list. I think this is where. I'm not going to say it's controversial, but there is something that stands out to me and s. You know, as the. The Canadian apologist protector.

[Dave Dufour]

Thank you. Yes.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah, it is. It is odd to me that Luca is 19 and Shea is 25.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. I really love watching Luka Doncic play basketball. So I will preface it with this unreal start to his career. Five time first team, all NBA member. That's ridiculous. But at the same time, Luca has not had a season. And this is why it goes back to peaks. Right? Luca has not had a season like SGA had last year. Led the league in scoring mvp. One of the best mid range seasons of all time. You know, arguably since Jordan. He obviously got the finals mvp. Western Conference finals MVP was Jalen Williams, I believe. Actually, no. SGA won Western Conference finals MVP as well. Basically a clean sweep for Shea. A perfect season in all regards and he led one of the best teams, 68 wins. So I just. To me, I think it's clear cut that Shay should be above Luca on this list. Even though as we stand right now this season, you could argue Luka is a better player than sga. And I, I would be fine with you having that argument and saying, well, look at the offensive output, the playmaking, etc. Etc. Fine, that's cool. In terms of peak, in terms of resume, in terms of all that, I think there's a very clear cut case for Shea over Luca.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, don't forget about Shea being 2025 first team all in season tournament team.

[Esperance A Henny]

That's right.

[Dave Dufour]

Clean sweep. Exactly.

[Fred Katz]

Huge. Got to respect the cup when you.

[Dave Dufour]

Got to respect the cup.

[Esperance A Henny]

Right.

[Fred Katz]

I will just, I will counter that even though I agree with everything you said, like Shay, I think Shea's a better player than Luca right now. Even though that's. Luke is averaging, what is it, 97 points a game.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Fred Katz]

She's. Shea's such a good defender that I think it pushes him a little bit over the top. However, if you're voting based on like legacy stuff and not just like, and not just oh, who's you're. Who would you rather have today? Like Luke is a five time all star. Five time first team all NBA. Shea is a three time all star, three time first team all NBA. And they're both early enough in their careers that it's like I don't know who's going to end up with more all NBAs or who's going to end up with more all first teams. You know, Shay's got the MVP, which is obvious.

[Esperance A Henny]

And a ring, a huge thing.

[Fred Katz]

And he's got the ring. Luca. Luca carried a team to the finals. Carried another team to the Western Conference finals.

[Esperance A Henny]

Like.

[Fred Katz]

Both un. Freaking believable. But I think probably if you're gonna do. And to be honest, I have no recollection of whether I did Shea over Luca on my list. I don't have the slightest clue.

[Esperance A Henny]

It's the perfect way to be.

[Fred Katz]

And so I. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna completely down the middle of this thing. I'm gonna say, like, I agree with you. I think I'd probably take Shay. I was doing rankings of players today.

[Dave Dufour]

Fred, I have your list.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah.

[Esperance A Henny]

Don't do that. We're not doing that. No, do it.

[Fred Katz]

Do it. Do it.

[Dave Dufour]

Kill me.

[Fred Katz]

Kill me. Crush me. I deserve it. I like this.

[Dave Dufour]

You have.

[Fred Katz]

Let's do it.

[Dave Dufour]

You had luka doncic at 19, and you did not rank shay in your top 25.

[Fred Katz]

Well, if I'm being honest. If I'm being honest, that just sounds like a royal mess up.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah, fair.

[Fred Katz]

That just. That just sounds like, you know, somebody being an idiot. Honestly, that's. That's incredibly. It's incredibly.

[Dave Dufour]

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and say this is. It's a hard thing to do. Okay?

[Esperance A Henny]

It is.

[Fred Katz]

No, we all did, and we all.

[Esperance A Henny]

Voted, by the way. S also voted yes. Xena got a vote. Andrew Schleck got a vote. I mean, you know, we. We were all part of this project, and it was hard. It was very hard. I mean, and again, you're gonna wind up leaving someone off accidentally.

[Dave Dufour]

You know, it was just funny that, like, we.

[Esperance A Henny]

We got to the point.

[Fred Katz]

Probably left off Shay. I think I probably left off Shay. Just because of the sample.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Fred Katz]

Because we have. We have the larger sample with Luca. Like, Shay was putting up numbers on tanking teams and missing some games here and there on the tanking teams. He was. He was very good during his first year with okc, that was like the Chris Paul, Dennis Schroeder year. But he wasn't like an unbelievable all star level player yet. He was just sprouting into that. Whereas, like, Luca, by his second season was all NBA. So now I'm going to justify it. I'm going to say Luca.

[Esperance A Henny]

Well, we also talking about, should he.

[Fred Katz]

Even be on this list? Should he even be on this list? Would you even put him on this list? Are you kidding me?

[Dave Dufour]

How he even put on Luca probably.

[Esperance A Henny]

Is a basketball hall of famer already, right? Like, he had a really kind of like an amazing few years in Europe as a pro before he came over. I think there's a little bit of that, too. Like, he feels older. There's a little bit of that Bias, you know, like so much.

[Dave Dufour]

By the way, if Luca ends up winning MVP this year and the Lakers make an incredible run to the finals or something like that, I mean, this immediately changes. It completely invalidates my SGA argument.

[Fred Katz]

It's.

[Esperance A Henny]

It's close. But I. I appreciate that having a ring and an MVP puts Shea ahead of Luca. Like, I. Actually, I. I'm. I agree with you. S. Speaking of people who just missed the cut or maybe were forgotten, there were a bunch of players, obviously, who were honorable mentions. You know, if you're cutting down a list of 25 guys, it's gonna leave some folks off. And starting with 26. Joel Embiid at 26, but Draymond Green at 27. To me, we left him off. Guys, this is the greatest defender of his generation again, another person who caused an evolution in the sport. Right. His ability.

[Dave Dufour]

Right.

[Esperance A Henny]

I mean, and. And let's not forget the. The contributions on offense. I know, like, it's very easy to say, well, he's a non factor, but the truth is, what he does offensively allows Steph to do so many of the things that he does because of his playmaking and whatnot. I do think Draymond Green is one of the 25 best players of this century so far. No. No arguments. Perfect.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.

[Fred Katz]

Let's. Let's put 30 guys on the top 25.

[Esperance A Henny]

30 in the top 25. Well, spiritually, that's.

[Fred Katz]

Why not.

[Esperance A Henny]

You know, like, I have. I think I have just.

[Fred Katz]

Alexander is not there.

[Dave Dufour]

Anti Canadian bias right here.

[Esperance A Henny]

Any of these guys that, that you feel like, outside of Draymond, that we've. We probably forgot Tracy McGrady right there. Manu Ginobly, Paul Gasol.

[Dave Dufour]

Manu is one of those weird ones, right? Because obviously never got any of the accolades, but very clearly a wildly talented player probably could have got more accolades on a different team, probably would have been a starter and consistent all star on a different team, but just chose to buy into what the spurs were doing. And you could argue that for some years that they won those championships, he was their second best player. So it's just. It's hard to look at the resume with Manu knowing he was just such a good player and very clearly, like, talent wise, you could argue him over. Melo, you could argue. I would at least. You know what I mean? You could argue him over some of these other guys. It's just the talent was clearly there. Manu, to be a top 25 player, I guess he just didn't. Didn't go about it the way that most people conventionally want to.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah. The. The last person who got a vote. Okay, this is the. The bottom of the barrel, but got a vote. Vince Carter. Not bad. That. That's. That's about right. You know, like, it's like an honorable mention.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah. I mean, Vince. Vince Carter was freaking awesome.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah.

[Fred Katz]

Like Vince Carter was. If Vince car. I'll say this. If Vince Carter were on this list and we were just scrolling through it and I was just looking at stuff because obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about with any of this, but if I were just scrolling through and we saw Vince Carter at number 24 on the list, I. I wouldn't really have a reaction.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, I wouldn't bat an eye. Yeah, that's true.

[Fred Katz]

Well, yeah, I wouldn't bat an eye. Like Vince Carter. Vince Carter was phenomenal. He was such a great player. Like when Toronto. Vince Carter was. Was great until the last year. And then Nets. Vince Carter was.

[Dave Dufour]

Was awesome too.

[Fred Katz]

So awesome. And then also really cool career. Like one of the rare guys who just immediately put aside the fact that he was a legit superstar, both in terms of just like all star appearances and contests and all of that, and also in terms of fame. Like, he was so famous and so popular and so exciting and. And just kind of put that aside to become this legit, awesome late career role player. So really hard to do. And he was just an awesome role player for like a really long time.

[Esperance A Henny]

And.

[Fred Katz]

And when he was young, people were like, is Vince Carter going to age okay? Because he's so predicated on his athleticism. Meanwhile, he had like one of the most graceful aging curves of like any of the stars of this generation. Like, look, you look at what happens with some stars. Obviously I. I'm defending Kobe is top four on this list. But like, you look at what happened when Kobe got old and after Kobe tore the Achilles and. And he comes back and it's like, this guy is not the same dude. He's not the same scorer, but he's still playing the same way. And now it's to the detriment of winning. And Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, very similar. Like, these guys figured out, you know what, I'm gonna fit in here in this way. And just became these, you know, Tim Duncan.

[Esperance A Henny]

Obviously it's a Grant Hill career path really with Vince Carter. Right. Grant Hill, after the ankle injuries, you know, he. And he went to Phoenix and. And got into the groove of being like this super sub. Nick Batum. Right. Is doing this very similar.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, but it's different. But. But, Nick, between.

[Esperance A Henny]

It's different when you're a star.

[Fred Katz]

Yeah, it's different when you're a star because so much of it is about personality and ego. And so.

[Dave Dufour]

And.

[Fred Katz]

And I don't even mean that in a bad way. Like, if you're unable to do it, doesn't mean you're, like, a bad person or a bad teammate even. It just. It just means that, like, you have been doing something one way your entire life, and it has worked as amazingly as you could have ever imagined. You've gotten everything you've wanted. You've gotten accolades, and you've gotten money, and you've gotten everything you could ever possibly want out of this and a million times more. And now all of a sudden, people are telling you, you know what? You can't do things the way that you used to do things. And you're probably like, oh, I was told when I was a kid I couldn't do things like this, and I'm still going to do it. And, like, the ability to have that sort of awareness and be able to adjust is very rare in human beings. Not in basketball players, just in human beings. And the ability to be able to do that and be able to adjust after you've been doing something for decades that has worked unbelievably. And to have that recognition to change is extremely rare. And it's always cool in a guy's legacy when you see that kind of stuff happen.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah. You guys got any closing thoughts before we get out of here?

[Dave Dufour]

I guess I'll just say six players didn't win MVP but made it onto that top 25 list. If we're doing 25 years, you would. You would argue, you know, 25 MVPs, but no six players. Dwayne Wade.

[Fred Katz]

Some guys want multiple times.

[Esperance A Henny]

Yeah, we have repeat.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, but. Yeah, but also didn't consider the multiple times thing. I will take away that idiot comments. I will go away with that.

[Fred Katz]

It's all right.

[Esperance A Henny]

It's all right. Yeah, it's the exchange rate north of the border.

[Dave Dufour]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

[Esperance A Henny]

Awesome. Well, hey, this was a lot of fun, guys. Go and check this out. Over at the Athletic, there's an article for every person. And I mean, it's. It's all your favorite writers at the Athletic and Fred Katz. So definitely, definitely go and check this out. Thank you, Fred, for hanging out with us. It's always a pleasure. Thanks to Esperance. A Henny of course. As always, I'm Dave DeFore. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.

[Fred Katz]

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[Esperance A Henny]

What's in your wallet?

[Fred Katz]

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