← The Athletic NBA Daily
Loading summary
Transcript123 lines
- [00:01]
Discover Advertiser
Security program on spreadsheets, New regulations piling
- [00:03]
Fred Katz
up and audit dread. It's time for Vanta. Vanta automates security and compliance, brings evidence into one place and cuts audit prep by 82%.
- [00:13]
Discover Advertiser
Less manual work, clearer visibility, faster deals, zero chaos.
- [00:17]
Fred Katz
Call it compliance or call it compliance.
- [00:21]
Zena Keda
Get it?
- [00:22]
Dave DeFore
Join the 15,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust.
- [00:26]
Discover Advertiser
Go to vanta.com calm it's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one. You can set earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms@discover.com credit card.
- [00:54]
Taylor from Total Soccer Show
Hey everybody. This is Taylor from the Total Soccer show. And this episode is brought to you by Hotels.com the summer of soccer is right around the corner. And if you aren't using hotels.com to book the experience of a lifetime, it's worth asking why? As a member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. So whether you're following your team across North America this summer or or planning a well earned escape after being glued to football for weeks on end, make sure you book on hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's all in the name. Hotels dot com.
- [01:38]
Dave DeFore
Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for May 26, 2026. I'm Dave DeFore, here with Zena Kada and Fred Katz. Coming up. Bing Bong. The Knicks are in the finals. Good morning everybody. What's up guys? Fred, sorry for yelling at you.
- [01:56]
Zena Keda
New York, go.
- [01:57]
Dave DeFore
How about that?
- [01:57]
Zena Keda
New York, go. New York go. That's just going to be ringing in my head for a while now.
- [02:02]
Dave DeFore
Fred Cass is here live from Cleveland where the Knicks completed the sweep. Really? It was only a three game sweep because the Cavaliers just didn't show up to game four. Fred. Man, this Knicks team is pretty good. We were talking about a lineup change not that long ago and boy, do I look pretty silly now.
- [02:25]
Fred Katz
This team is unbelievable. Yeah, I mean that's. It's not hyperbole. It's really not hyperbole. This is. Whether they win or lose in the finals, this is one of the great playoff runs of all time. And that sounds like a wild thing to say about The Knicks and about a three seed, which is like kind of too normal of a seed to be a Cinderella and too low of a seed to just be like they dominated everybody. This team has won. I understand the east is weak. I understand that. But two things can be true. The east is weak and the Knicks have rolled over Everybody. They've won 11 consecutive games now in the playoffs. This is the third longest playoff winning streak of all time. Funny enough, the team that has the longest winning streak in the playoffs of all time was the 2017 warriors, who were coached because Steve Kerr was out by Mike Brown, who is now coaching the Knicks. And then the spurs in, in 1999 won 12 games in a row and the Knicks are at 11 right now. This is an incredible run. Their point differential during the run is like 2, 260 some odd points. It is extraordinary. They have the largest point differential of any team in the playoffs ever, ever. Total by the way, not even per game. And they haven't played that many games because they're 12 and two in the playoffs and their two losses are by only one point each. It has been an unbelievable run of everything. I'm like, it's really amazing how well this team is playing.
- [04:12]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, that, that plus 262 over 11 games. That's the best of any 11 game stretch for any team in NBA history, period. I mean that's not the basketball that they're playing, right? I mean Xena is something we talked about in the, in the Hawks series. As soon as they, they opened up the floor, they got cat outside. This whole offense just sort of changed and, and really like 11, 11 straight games in, in the playoffs, they're, they're probably the most impressive team that I think we've seen in either conference.
- [04:46]
Zena Keda
I think the most impressive part to me is just how quick the page flipped from just a few months ago. We're asking deep philosophical questions about the identity of this team, the fragility of the structure that they've built in New York, the structure with Mike Brown as the coach, Kat as their star alongside Jalen Brunson. Is that two man duo going to work? Do they have enough in their supporting cast? And here we are talking about records being broken, talking about history being made. That to me, whenever you have a franchise that can completely shift your thinking around just how good they can be that fast, different, like it's different. We haven't seen anything like that. They're built different right now.
- [05:35]
Dave DeFore
What's the difference? What do we not see, Fred?
- [05:42]
Fred Katz
Well, the Difference is a lot of schematic stuff. I mean, you alluded to them changing around the offense involving Catmore, but that wasn't necessarily the case against Cleveland because they came out in game one of that Cleveland series and they tried to run the offense through Cat and they tried a lot of that bench bow stuff that worked so well against Atlanta and worked so well against Philadelphia. And it didn't work nearly as well against Cleveland's personnel with Evan Mobley, who's a defensive player of the year, guarding Cat, and also with Jared Allen, who's a very good rim protector, you know, air quotes, guarding Josh Hart and sagging off of him so he could hang around the lane and not just take away drives, but also take away cuts, which hurt Scott's passing. And they were like, you know what, we're going to go to another spot. And they start running kind of more of the stuff they were running later in the year with Jalen Brownson, pick and roll stuff. And they're still incorporating a lot of the actions that they were using, but in different ways off the ball and different off ball screening stuff. That's working so well. Honestly, I think my answer really is something that the guys on the team have said a lot. And it, it, it doesn't sound like a cliche. It is a cliche, but sometimes things are cliches because they want, you want everybody to think that this is what's actually happening. But, but. And this is a real case of what's happening. They are focused in a way. I've been around the Knicks for half a decade now, and they're focused in a way that I haven't really, really seen. And when I say that, it's not just like, you know, I think people think about focus and they're like, all right, you know, they wake up in the morning and they're thinking about the game. And that's not what I mean. I don't mean they're just thinking about the game all the time or preparing really hard or whatever else. If you watch them on the court when Cleveland runs a play, it's not just like the guy guarding the back line who's calling out the play. It's not just the assistant coach who did the scout calling out the play. It is all five dudes on the court screaming at each other back screen here. Like they're, they're, they're calling out everything on the other end. They are communicating and being like, they are knowing where we're going to go here. They're understanding, okay, we're trying to target this guy. Game one, they went at Harden like crazy and they're like, we're going to target Harden. Philadelphia, they wanted Embiid like crazy and Philly was trying to pre switch Embiid off of whoever the Knicks were screening and the Knicks were just sending back that guy and sending up Embiid's new guy over and over again. The, the communication, the focus, the dedication they have to getting into the things that work for them is like nothing I have ever seen from this team. And quite frankly, it's not like much that we've seen from many other teams considering the winning that's gone on here.
- [08:27]
Zena Keda
It's also so such a different vibe than what we saw at the end of the regular season when there was friction and there was conflict around. Does everyone feel bought in? This feels like such a team right now that there are no egos. Yes, of course, Jalen Brunson has been a superstar in the way that he has played for this team and Kat as well. But it doesn't feel as if anyone's on a specific tier. It's everyone has, has a hand in. And it makes me think about the story that you just put out on the Athletic about how this team came to be and particularly the, the difference between like the Carmelo era Knicks that they, you know, the Knicks organization tried to throw a bunch of money at one superstar versus this team that was built around trades and trying to build a team through capable players around superstar, talented level players. Like, tell us a little bit about that difference in philosophy of how you create a team that now is calling out the plays and everyone's bought in.
- [09:29]
Fred Katz
Yeah, I mean, look, it started with a bit of a mentality like we're going to bring in a certain personality type is what they were telling themselves every once in a while. They got away from that when Tom Thibodeau was the head coach. They eventually got to a point where they made a very, very conscious decision, all right, we are only going to bring in Tibbs players. And the beauty of Tibbs is that he is the least subtle human being in America. You don't need any sources or any relationship with him to know who's a dibs player and who's not a Tibbs player. When the Knicks traded for Josh Hart, you could have been a dude, a Twitter egg who had watched six Portland Trailblazers games and been like, oh, that's a tilt. That's a dibs player if I've ever seen one. They went out and they brought in those sorts of Tibbs players and that created this sort of workman like, this sort of workman like culture with the previous team. What they did during that time as well was they focused so hard on the margins of the roster while saving up these draft picks that they used to throw away for 20 years and not committing to these large contracts that they used to just kind of shell out back in the day. I mean, the knicks in the 19 years leading up to Leon Rose taking over the front office in 2020, made the playoffs three times and paid the luxury tax 10 times. That is not the ratio that you want for the money that you're doling out. And this team decided they were going to be there.
- [11:05]
Zena Keda
Was there a pun there? Doling out? I feel like there was. No. Okay.
- [11:10]
Fred Katz
Wow. There wasn't. But that's good.
- [11:13]
Dave DeFore
That, honestly, that was pretty good.
- [11:16]
Fred Katz
I would do that if I could think of it. But I'm not that I'm not as good as you. That's good.
- [11:24]
Zena Keda
Sorry.
- [11:25]
Fred Katz
They know. They, they have, they have done a really great job staying patient and not just blowing everything on one guy like they used to all the time. Like they did with the Barnyani trade, like they did when they signed Jerome James, like they did in the Antonio McDyess trade, even the OG Anunoby trade. They make that trade. They don't give up a first round pick. Somehow they do the Josh Hart trade. They give up a late, heavily protected first and they get off of Cam Reddish in making that deal. That's one of the best trades they've made, maybe the best, like pound for pound return that they've gotten given how little they gave out. And then they waited for the guys they wanted. You know, they saw Bridges and in a vacuum, it's like five first round picks for Mikhail Bridges, who had never made an all star team. That is a wild move. They thought he was the piece that would bring him over the top who just completely and utterly just like stifled James Harden and Tyrese Maxey in back
- [12:35]
Dave DeFore
to back series and shot 70% from the field for last 11 games. Absurd.
- [12:43]
Fred Katz
Absolutely absurd.
- [12:44]
Dave DeFore
For a guy that felt unplayable. I, I was like, are they going to have to bench Mikhail Bridges? You know, first thing, three games of the playoffs, he just looked like a completely different player. That, that's going to be a fascinating story, Fred. When, when you write it is what sort of switch did he flip? Because that turnaround, like when do you ever see that happen in the playoffs? The lights are usually too bright. Guys don't normally know how to turn them off.
- [13:11]
Fred Katz
I know. I don't know if the first round, like, maybe it seemed like the lights were too bright, you know, in the first round with Bridges, but yeah, obviously that wasn't. I mean, that couldn't have been the case.
- [13:23]
Dave DeFore
Definitely not.
- [13:23]
Fred Katz
I think. I think a huge part of it, honestly was like, if you want to get in the weeds with it, the. The Hawks have Dyson Daniels and Nikhil Alexander Walker and those. I don't think it was the lights. I think it was those two dudes. Like, there was this one stretch in. I think it was game three of that Hawk series where Bridges is like, tries to run a pick and roll and just loses the ball. Tries to drive to the rim, loses the ball again. And he just kept losing the ball. And it wasn't because it was, you know, slipping out of his fingers or because he was eating popcorn in the middle of the game. It was because those two dudes. So much to handle when you're dribbling the basketball. And he stopped involving himself in stuff. He was good defensively in that series is that he completely stopped involving himself. There was a point like four games into the series, he. He had run like 10 pick and rolls the whole series. He just stopped. Stopped ball screening. He just stopped participating in the offense. And I mean, you. Dave, you know how this works. Like Zena, you know how this works. Like, you see a shot go in, you see another shot go in. One thing that he's done an amazing job is like kind of getting himself going by getting out in transition. So well. That's something he's generally very good at. But because the Knicks defense has been fantastic during this stretch and he's really. He and OG Anunoby have led the way because it's been so good. He's being able to get out and transition. He has done an incredible job, I think, reading the game between when he has to leak out and when he's got to stay back because he's guarding important people and if he leaks out and it's not a worthwhile thing, then like he's going to get hurt on the other end. Then all of a sudden the top facilitator on the other team has a. Has a real mismatch and it's just going to be frantic from there. And there's not one time where he's leaked out and been burned. Not one time. The Knicks have been playing fantastic fast break basketball on top of all else. Bridges has been excellent at it. He's hit every mid range shot he's taken, like just, just every one of them. And I really think defensively, defensively he has been utterly spectacular. It's been a whole other level. The thing with him all regular season was that he was excellent off the ball. The issue is his screen navigation, physicality. Kind of a question mark. Not really the on ball defender. The point of attack defender that Knicks had hoped for when they made that deal. Couldn't be more the opposite of the case. I mean, this is the guy they traded five first round picks for. This is him. This is why you do the deal. He's been, it's been spectacular.
- [16:05]
Zena Keda
It's funny to watch on one side of these conference finals. The west has two teams that have built their teams through the draft. And yeah, the spurs also acquired Dear and Fox as well. But I feel as if there's like these two different approaches to building teams being represented on both sides. And do you feel like the Knicks approach of, you know, really prioritizing trades and finding players like Mikhail and finding players like og, like, is that gonna have a resurgence or are more people still like in that boat of. No, no, go find the young talent, develop them, let them grow together and they'll become this superpower that we're kind of seeing happen in the West.
- [16:55]
Fred Katz
That's a great question. That's a great question. See now you're very.
- [17:00]
Dave DeFore
Lottery reform could maybe between.
- [17:02]
Fred Katz
She's great, right? She's great. Lottery reform.
- [17:06]
Dave DeFore
I trigger some of this stuff.
- [17:09]
Fred Katz
I've been trying. Yeah, I've been trying. I've been trying to get Xena on my podcast. She's too big time. She won't come on.
- [17:14]
Taylor from Total Soccer Show
Oh
- [17:17]
Dave DeFore
my gosh.
- [17:18]
Fred Katz
I've been trying to podcast.
- [17:22]
Dave DeFore
Fred, what's the name of that pod? That's it. Thank you. I have a thought here. I don't think that you can tank with the Knicks. I don't think that that's allowed. Like, I don't think James Dolan is going to have anyone run that team. That's like, nope, we're going to lose and we're going to hope for a good draft pick. Not on purpose.
- [17:43]
Fred Katz
Now you're 100% correct. Like, definitely not. If you're going to rebuild, this is how, this is how you have to do it. I mean, the funny thing is I've always thought you can tank with the Knicks. Like, I actually think there's definitive proof that you can take with the Knicks because for years they did not tank, but they were as bad as if they had been tanking, and that's even worse than actually tanking. And they still are filling up this arena in Cleveland because they have so many fans. So I actually think there's definitive proof that you very much can tank with Knicks fans. They're smart, they are relentless. They don't leave you alone. They were super hyped leading up to 2010 about Cap Space in 2010. They were super hyped about cap space leading up to 2019, all cap space. They understood what was going on. Nobody was killing the organization for that approach. Maybe they're killing them for individual moves, but no one was killing them for taking that approach. I actually think you can tank in New York. But I agree. I mean, it's certainly true that they don't want to tank from ownership down. And so you have to find these creative ways to do it. I would say maybe. I mean, here's. Okay, Zena, here's what I'll say. Where the Knicks have, I don't want to say outpaced the league because that's too strong. Where the Knicks have been elite from a front office perspective, and one of the best spots in the league is, you know, you mentioned the story that I wrote. I mentioned Brock Aller in there, who runs their cap strategy department. And he's generally considered by basically everybody who works in his industry in the league. He's generally considered just like one of the best in the league at what he does, if not the best in terms of managing cap and basketball strategy and all that kind of stuff, exploiting CBA stuff, everything else. David Griffin called him a diabolical genius. He started here in Cleveland, actually, and worked for David De Griffin. And David Griffin calls him a diabolical genius. It's the line he's used various times to describe him. And it's not just him. So when he came to the Knicks, he was the first front office person that Leon Rose and William Wesley, the number two, hired. They hired him away from Cleveland. Leon and Brock had a relationship already, and he brings him over. And one of the first things that Brock wanted to do was he was like, you gotta build out the basketball strategy place. Like, you got all the cat people, everything like that. You gotta build this thing out. So Nick's had, I think, two or three people in cap strategy at the time, and now they've got like 10, nine. It's one of the bigger staffs in the league, and they are constantly putting that to work. And so you look at all this really clever cap stuff, the Knicks have Done all this stuff on the margins. The way they engineered the cap trade, where, like they did these sign in trades to make it work. The way they engineered the bridges trade, where they did these sign and trades to make it work. And then there's the bigger stuff, like, there's the really small stuff, like how they drafted Pacombe dadier with the 25th pick. And that might feel. In 2024, and that might feel like nothing because Pacombe Daddier doesn't play. But one of the reasons they drafted him was because he was willing to take 80% of the rookie scale instead of the regular 120% of the rookie scale. And this was a Brock Eller thing. They wanted that extra. The difference between 80% of the rookie scale for the 25th pick and 20 and 120%. The difference was either a $2.7 million salary for Daddier in his first year and a 1.8. So it was a $900,000 difference. Had the Knicks drafted somebody, and for context, it's totally Rare to take 80% of the rookie scale. The Knicks had to find someone who they knew was willing to do it. It was the first time in five years anyone had taken less than 120% and only the second time in like 10 or 12 years anyone had taken less than 120 percent of the rookie scale. Had the Knicks not done that, and had they just drafted somebody for 120%, they would not have had the cat. The cap room to make the cat trade later that year. They. It was that tight of a window
- [22:11]
Dave DeFore
keeping the powder dry. That's amazing.
- [22:14]
Zena Keda
That's crazy.
- [22:14]
Fred Katz
They would have missed it by about.
- [22:16]
Dave DeFore
Yeah, yep.
- [22:17]
Fred Katz
They would have missed it by about $400,000. They would not have had a way to make it work. They couldn't have done it the way they did it.
- [22:24]
Dave DeFore
I wonder if the Timberwolves are feeling like, oh, man. Yeah, daddy, you kind of killed us.
- [22:32]
Fred Katz
There was. There was the. I mean, look, the wolves wanted to do the deal. Nobody, nobody forced them into it. I mean, there was you know, even just the way the cat trade went down. It was the Knicks and the wolves were both over the first apron. And there's a rule that teams over the first apron, which is a payroll threshold that's over the luxury tax. There is a rule where. But a team over the first apron cannot receive more salary in a trade than it gives out. So, you know, figure out the logic of that. That means two teams that are both over the first apron can't make trades directly with each other. Because somebody, unless you're trading the exact same salary for the exact same salary, someone's going to be receiving more salary. So in this case, the Knicks were receiving more salary. So what they had to do is they had to add salary to the deal, but couldn't go back to Minnesota because that would just up the scale to the other side. So they had to find ways to get salary to another team. But everybody was a rotation player and they weren't going to add rotation players to the deal they had already agreed to. It had to be somebody who was not worthwhile. They couldn't add minimum deals because of another rule in the cba. So they have these three guys who are lingering out there who never played the previous season, just total end to bench guys. And It's Charlie Brown Jr. It's the Quan Jeffries, and it is Dwayne Washington Jr. This is in September of 2024. And they had told all three of those guys, agents like those guys had never, and none of the three had ever received a guaranteed contract before the start of a season. And they were never going to unless there was a situation like the one that unfolded. And in July two months prior, Brock Aller and Frank Zanin, Nick's assistant gm, had told the agents of those players, wait around, wait around. We might be able to use you guys as money in a sign in trade if, if something pops up. And if that's the case, then you guys can get guaranteed contracts for the first time in your entire careers. So what happens is the Knicks need to find the salary that's outgoing. So what they do is they sign these guys all to a dollar above the minimum, so they're not minimum contracts and they trade them to Charlotte. Dwayne Washington Jr. Had already signed with Partisan Belgrade in Serbia and legally could not sign with another professional team. So he had to be bought out by Partizan. Partizan then held the Knicks hostage. Brock Allers on the phone, like negotiating these, this buyout from a team in Serbia in order to try to make the cat trade happen. He ends up working the buyout. He can sign in the sign and trade, go to Charlotte, get released immediately, and go back to Partisan. It's all these crazy little cap intricacies that the Knicks have pulled off. And there are more of them too that the Knicks have pulled off in various ways. And they eventually they all add up. You know, you find a nickel on the street and you find a quarter on the street and maybe find a 20 on the street.
- [25:40]
Dave DeFore
You're lucky I gotta get these guys to do my taxes is what is. What y' all feeling right here, Fred? Guys, stick around. We're gonna take a quick break, then we're gonna bug Fred some more.
- [25:55]
Taylor from Total Soccer Show
Hey everybody, this is Taylor from the Total Soccer show, and this episode is brought to you by Hotels.com the summer of soccer is right around the corner and if you aren't using hotels.com to book the experience of a lifetime, it's worth asking why? As a member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. So whether you're following your team across North America this summer or planning a well earned escape after being glued to football for weeks on end, make sure you book on hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's all in the name Hotels.com Amazon Pharmacy
- [26:37]
Fred Katz
presents Painful Thoughts of course I see my co worker in line at the pharmacy.
- [26:44]
Dave DeFore
Can he tell I'm picking up prescription hemorrhoid cream?
- [26:47]
Fred Katz
I'm probably standing weird. Why is he smiling?
- [26:51]
Dave DeFore
He knows he's going to call me Hemorrhoid Lloyd tomorrow. I know it.
- [26:56]
Fred Katz
I gotta quit my job. Next time, avoid awkward conversations and get fast free delivery with Amazon Pharmacy Healthcare just got less painful.
- [27:06]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Imagine waking up to breathtaking landscapes, vibrant culture and a welcoming community. New Zealand is calling. If you are a passionate early childhood primary or secondary school teacher, New Zealand says, come teach us. With up to 10,000 New Zealand dollars in relocation support, now is the time to make your move. Find out more about moving to New Zealand to teach@workforce.education.govt.nz open to existing qualified primary, secondary and ECE teachers. Note that this grant is only dispersed after a teacher has arrived in New Zealand and meets the other accompanying criteria.
- [27:47]
Dave DeFore
Okay, but look, before I let you go, okay, and I know it's getting late for you, I gotta ask you. Look, you've been watching the Western Conference finals like everybody else. We've got a best two out of three. Now, who does this Knicks team want to see in the finals?
- [28:06]
Fred Katz
Well, I asked a couple of the players that question after the game and all of them said, doesn't matter, be prepared for whomever.
- [28:16]
Dave DeFore
I thought you were going to give me one. I was like, wait, for the first time ever, do we have some bullets?
- [28:21]
Fred Katz
I mean, are they all going to
- [28:23]
Dave DeFore
fly out and watch game six? Like, are they going to do Something like AAU style show up, you know what I mean? They're going to have such a long break is forever away. It's eight days away.
- [28:36]
Zena Keda
If only there were bleachers. All the game stacked up in the bleachers. Yeah, that'd be so good.
- [28:41]
Fred Katz
They could all go to game seven. That, that, that would be, that would be glorious, honestly.
- [28:48]
Dave DeFore
I mean, they're going to be in town for game one of the finals right after anyway, right? Like, why not?
- [28:53]
Fred Katz
100%. You got to go there, get there early. Yeah, Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. Andrew Schle in Oklahoma City. Yeah, you'll be good to go. Although if San Antonio wins that Game seven, then you're, you're a little inconvenienced, but it's fine. You'll survive. You'll survive.
- [29:12]
Dave DeFore
Who do you think they prefer to play?
- [29:14]
Fred Katz
If I were them, I would prefer San Antonio. I think the shooting struggles that San Antonio is having right now and just kind of the lack of three point shooting they have on the roster makes them a little bit more formidable, or actually I should say makes the Knicks a little more formidable for them. Oklahoma City is. I also just think, like, there's no series that I'm going to pick Oklahoma City to lose. Like, just. I just think Oklahoma City is the scarier team. Obviously, the, the answer is going to depend on injuries. Like if, if, if J Dub is J Dub and if AJ Mitchell is AJ Mitchell or if, you know, Ron Harper and Darren Fox are themselves too. And the answer is going to depend on that. I think San Antonio has less experience. They, they don't really have the shooting that Oklahoma City has. And right now the Knicks are just shooting the lights out. And if they're hot from the floor, it might be, it might be tough. I know they have Wemby, I know they have Wembley, but Oklahoma City is well positioned to guard Jill and Bronson too. Like really well positioned.
- [30:24]
Dave DeFore
And they're so deep, right? That's the thing about the Thunder. They're so deep, they never stop coming. And you know, one of the look and I don't know if you guys feel this way and Zena, we talked about it a little bit. It almost sometimes feels like a different sport when you're watching Thunder, spurs and you switch over and you're watching Knicks, Cavs, and I wonder about the intensity level going up, you know, like, how do, like how do the Knicks respond when they play against one of these teams like the spurs and the Thunder that frankly is fouling most of the time, right? Like, you Know, they've raised the level of the foul so much because they're so physical. You know, I wonder how this Knicks team responds. Unless you think that's where the veteranship comes into play.
- [31:10]
Fred Katz
I think veteranship matters. Like, I think it. I think it matters. Like, Steve Jones Jr. Had a. Had a really great tweet today, piecing together, like, each team that has gone to the finals from the east for the last, like, five years lost the conference finals in. In the previous year. I mean, I. I'll tell you a funny story. Maybe it's not mine to tell, but I'll. I'll tell it anyway, and I'll. I'll let Vinnie Goodwill from ESPN get mad at me if I do. So. Vinnie Goodwill and.
- [31:44]
Dave DeFore
And we don't need a podcast beef. We like Vinnie Goodwill.
- [31:48]
Fred Katz
It's fine. It's fine. Vinnie will be. Cat catching. Katt tells a very, very funny story that, you know, when they lost in the conference finals a few years ago with Minnesota, Vinnie said to him, you know, like, to try to, you know, be nice. Said to him, you know, you gotta whim, you gotta lose before you can win. And Cat is like, the hell, man. I'm, like, competitive. I'm like, no, I wanna win. And he said he was so mad at Vinnie in that moment, and he, like, he. It's become this joke he, like, makes fun of. Vinn said that. And when they made it to the conference finals again, a few. A few weeks, a couple of weeks ago, whatever it was, he had said to Vinnie, like he was joking in the scrum, being like, oh, do I still have to lose or can I win? And it's funny.
- [32:46]
Zena Keda
I love it.
- [32:47]
Fred Katz
Yeah, but it's also like. Like, Vinnie, I mean, Cat's reaction is very funny. And Vinnie also kind of has a point. Gotta lose before he's true. Thunder. Thunder had to lose in the second round before they could go on and win. The best example of you don't have to lose before you can win is that Phoenix team that went to the finals.
- [33:09]
Dave DeFore
Whoa, whoa.
- [33:09]
Fred Katz
But, like, they also had just gotten Duncan, Chris Paul.
- [33:13]
Dave DeFore
Oh, how about Tim Duncan Done this before. Okay, I'm just saying, like, you know, this. The spurs have done this when they had this, you know, young, incredible center. And that's where I look at with Wemby, man. I just feel like the rules are not the same for guys like that.
- [33:34]
Fred Katz
Just not so 100% kind of gets right his own 100%. I mean, look, if we have Nick spurs, it's either going to Be that you have to lose before you can win and that's gone. Or that you can't win with a. With a. With a. With a six foot one, best player, and that's gone. Like, we're gonna have to change something
- [33:53]
Dave DeFore
about the way finals.
- [33:55]
Fred Katz
Oh, yeah. 100. It's David. It's David versus Goliath. Like, it's.
- [33:59]
Zena Keda
It is. It is.
- [34:00]
Dave DeFore
Oh, man. It literally.
- [34:01]
Fred Katz
It is.
- [34:01]
Zena Keda
The.
- [34:02]
Fred Katz
Is the best small player in the league versus the best big player in
- [34:05]
Dave DeFore
the league and the best small market against the best big market, Oklahoma City.
- [34:12]
Fred Katz
Smaller.
- [34:14]
Zena Keda
Right. That's what I was thinking. Okay.
- [34:15]
Dave DeFore
See, well, I was think I was saying, you know, they're about the same. They're close. San Antonio, I guess, is a big market.
- [34:21]
Zena Keda
Sorry, sorry.
- [34:22]
Fred Katz
I want.
- [34:22]
Zena Keda
I just want to. I want to flip it a little bit. We don't know what's going to happen. This San Antonio OKC situation, I just feel like it's going to be a slug fest and then New York is just going to be like, all right, let's have fun with the scraps. Whatever's left of these two teams.
- [34:37]
Dave DeFore
That's a good point.
- [34:37]
Zena Keda
We'll see what happens. But there is a team that is absolutely in the scraps right now. The team that said 1, 2, 3, Cancun. That is Cleveland. We.
- [34:47]
Dave DeFore
I don't think they're going to let him cross the border. Zena, you can't play like that. Yeah, they're going to Lake Erie.
- [34:53]
Zena Keda
Yeah. So. Okay, so before we close this out, I do think that we do have to address the fact that this team that was supposed to be built to beat the Knicks, the team that was built to win the east, you have two bigs. You've got these guards. You get James Harden mid season, you get the last piece that you think is going to unlock your finals destination. And alas, you get smoked, swept. You've got the mayor asking New York Sanitation to pick up the pieces after this sweep. Yeah. What's going to happen with Cleveland?
- [35:29]
Fred Katz
Donovan Mitchell said reassured reporters after the game that he loves playing here. He was asked about his future. He's eligible for an extension this summer. And I think it all. It all starts with him. It all starts with him and what he decides to do because he is eligible for a big extension this summer. And if he accepts it, the, you know, the Cavs, I think, would love to offer it to him. And if he accepts it, then they'll move around and continue to build around Donovan Mitchell. And if he doesn't accept it, Then I think the Cavs are going to put up their hands and be like, okay, well, what do we do? He's a free agent or can be a free agent after next season. So you kind of have to check around the league and see what else is out there. If that's the case, I don't know what he's going to do. He reassured, he reassures everybody. Whenever he's asked how much he loves Cleveland, how much he loves playing for the Cavs, he, There is no indication that he wants to be anywhere else. But, I mean, you guys know how the league works until the pen is on paper. We just don't. No.
- [36:32]
Dave DeFore
Well, there's always a risk that he's just going to get traded to the Lakers for no apparent reason. Right. Like, I mean, with a, with a player of that caliber. Right. Like, you just, sometimes stuff just happens. And if he's not going to sign the extension, it's open to that.
- [36:46]
Fred Katz
Yeah. Yeah. And, and then you got to figure out, like, okay, well, you into saying,
- [36:50]
Dave DeFore
yeah, maybe they do a LeBron thing?
- [36:53]
Fred Katz
Oh, I don't think that'll be the case, but I, I, I don't think that's happening. Yeah, not, not that trade. I mean, maybe LeBron does a Cleveland thing, but not for Donovan Mitchell. I think if LeBron's going to Cleveland, then, yeah, yeah, it's, it's gonna be. That's the other thing.
- [37:07]
Zena Keda
Donovan needs to be there.
- [37:08]
Dave DeFore
Yes, yes.
- [37:10]
Zena Keda
Meeting him off the plane. Yes.
- [37:12]
Fred Katz
They got a lot of questions.
- [37:13]
Dave DeFore
Part of this is fascinating. Yeah, he'll, he'll be back. 48 million. Oh, yeah, he's back $48 million player option. I mean, he's going to take, but, like, they're going to sign him to an extension, I imagine.
- [37:26]
Fred Katz
I think, I think he's, Yeah, I think they'll, I think he's got a history of, like, declining the player option, signing for a lesser number at more guaranteed years. So I would, I would bet that's the case. He's got a history of, like, decline the player option, doing a one plus one. Like, I feel like that's, that's something that's more in the cards. I, I know they've had the intention, like they've said all year, that if they think it's worth it, they will be, they will go into the second apron a second consecutive season. They've said that all year. After this series, it's, like, too soon for me to know if they still think that's worth it. They might. I'm sure. If Donovan Mitchell wants to extend, they're not going to be like, all right, now we're going to strip it down. They'll probably go the opposite direction, but not a lot of flexibility. And then the question is like, okay, is there any, are there any other changes?
- [38:24]
Dave DeFore
What happens with Moble, Mobley, Allen is a, is a question because this is another playoff where the two big thing just doesn't quite work. You know, Mobley doesn't quite give you what you expect out of him from night to night. And I, I think that there's some questions there. Yeah, Dave, I have questions, decisions to make.
- [38:47]
Fred Katz
Question for you. What'd you. Okay. What do you think happened with Kenny Atkinson this playoffs?
- [38:54]
Dave DeFore
Okay. I have no clue. I don't, I just don't think he's a good playoff coach. I, I think that what we're seeing is from night to night, from half to half, he's not able or willing to make adjustments. I mean, there is a certain, like, whether he wants to or not, if the team won't go along, then it doesn't matter. But, but also the players underperform. You know, in this playoff run, James Harden had seven games out of 18 that he had more turnovers than made shots. What do you do with that as a coach? Like, I know we make the joke all the time about the hit shots button, the play better button, but, like, those things don't actually exist. And so some of this is his players just didn't perform. But your job as the coach is to get him to perform and to have him set up for success. They're, they're not quite deep enough, in my opinion, to be a title team. You know, I think making the conference finals, they should feel like it's a success, even though it's one of the most embarrassing conference finals losses I can remember. Like I said, they really got swept in three games. They did not play at all in game four. You compare that to the Lakers and how they got swept and everyone's like, wow, respect to LeBron James, you know what I mean? Like, they had a lot of heart. And this Cavs team, once again, and I called them out for this. Coming into the playoffs, I was shocked that they won two game sevens because they're soft. They're. They're, they're soft. And a lot of that is just. I think Mobley and Allen don't bring enough toughness. You see that when they play against like the Detroit Pistons and against this Knicks team that is looks like they're wearing timberland boots playing out there against the Cavs. So to me, I, I think you probably got to take a look at Kenny Atkinson from a lot of different angles. I, I think, look, winning the game analytically, whatever you think about that, I, I think it's a funny line, but what he's trying to say is, oh, well, we were effective. My guys didn't hit shots, but at the end of the day, it's a make or miss league and you're the guy that's supposed to get them to make. So I don't know, I, I, I wouldn't be surprised if they move on. Like, this is a team that made it to the conference finals. We just saw this with the New York Knicks, right? Tom Thibodeau gets them to the, gets them to the conference finals. They lose, they change the coach, and now they're going to the finals. Maybe, maybe this Cavs team doesn't need to change everything. Maybe you don't have to throw everything out. Maybe you can get LeBron, but maybe you just need a new voice in there, you know, Kenny Atkinson. I think if, if, like the Chicago Bulls could get him, man, he could really coach them up, but I just don't think he's quite get you to the finals. Sorry, I know that.
- [41:30]
Zena Keda
No, it's so real though, because, but look, I'm just thinking about Kenny Atkinson, coach of the year, right? Just very recently, Mike Brown, coach of the year, gets fired.
- [41:41]
Taylor from Total Soccer Show
That's how it goes, right?
- [41:42]
Zena Keda
Like looking at the patterns of what could potentially transpire. I also am just thinking about Kenny Atkinson and anytime we talk about a coach of, oh, well, they're supposed to have the play better button or they're supposed to inspire their players to want to play better. I really struggle with this because Kenny Atkinson cannot control the levels to which the Cavaliers were throwing the ball around this entire series, right? Like the level of carelessness we saw with the basketball. I don't know how much yelling you're going to do in the locker room to get these guys to lock in and care about possessions in the way that they should. And so that he, I feel like he will be scapegoated because what is the typical pattern we always see is, well, well, they wouldn't be throwing the ball around if they, if they had somebody, you know, as a beacon telling them, no, this matters more. You need to be careful caring about the dispossession. You be caring about these games, you need to be caring about the opportunity to win. And he, he's going to probably get fired. He's probably going to get picked up. And let's, let's see the next team he picks up will go to the finals. We'll see if he gets the same storybook ending. But it just, it feels really unfair to, to possibly see that narrative be placed upon Kenny Atkinson after the way the Cavs played.
- [42:59]
Fred Katz
Yeah, I think he had, he was in, he was in a tough spot. They were clearly dead. Like they had played two straight seven game playoff series. You know what, you know what really stands out to me and I don't know what to make of it. I don't know. Maybe you guys have thoughts. They were dead in this series, like, just exhausted. They coughed up the lead. I went back and watched all their three pointers over the first three games of the series because I was like, I want to see how often miss short and they're missing. They're like three times. Like three times as likely to miss short as they are to miss long. Like, they're just like, they were just short on everything. They were missing so many shots. It was, it was crazy. And something that kind of crossed my mind was like, huh, you know, I know they had some injuries last year, but like, they were playing, they were on the court. It was like they were like banged up. But they were banged up last year against Indiana and like the iconic moments of last year against Indiana where like that team just being so exhausted in a second round series. Like, remember Donna and Mitchell just like sitting at the free throw line looking like he was going to keel over.
- [44:09]
Dave DeFore
Yeah. And like, and do everything.
- [44:11]
Fred Katz
And like that team couldn't move. No one could move. They were exhausted. Like, I get they played two straight seven round, seven game series. I get that they had, you know, we were playing every other day. I understand it. But like after last year, they recognized that they were exhausted during that Indiana series. They were like, we're going to change some stuff around with how we approach things. We're going to change how we approach the minutes. They played their guys very few minutes during the regular season last year. They were like, we're going to change how we're going to do, you know, we're going to do conditioning stuff and all that. And I'm like, yeah, I know you played two straight seven game series. I get it. That is a valid reason for being tired. But like, you're not the first team in NBA history to make it to the conference finals. Like normally to make it to the conference finals of the finals, you have to play a lot of basketball. Games. That's how it works. The only team that doesn't is apparently the Knicks and the 2017 Warriors. Like you have to play a six game series, you have to play a seven game series in order to get there. That's the, that's the way it works. Why are they so tired all the time? Like, why are they so exhausted at the end of a season?
- [45:19]
Dave DeFore
This goes, this is coaching. I think that this is coaching. You know, they go out, they make the trade, they get, they get Keon Ellis. I think it's not. You got to have a bigger rotation in it in the NBA. In the NBA now, like if you're 30 year old, you need a bunch of 25 year old dudes. I mean it's the Thunder, it's the Pacers, it's, you know, it's the spurs and the Knicks are still actually pretty young. And I just think Cleveland, like, you can be young, but you got to be deep and they're just not deep enough. I think they found out when they got to the playoffs they didn't have quite as many guys who were playoff guys. You know, Max Truce is a playoff guy and you look at how heavy they leaned on him. But Jalen Tyson, who was out there all year for them, he really wasn't a playoff guy. You know, he didn't have a single moment that I can remember and, and his minutes reflected that. So I, I feel like it's more of a, that, you know, they tried, they just didn't succeed to make the team that they needed to, to make, to, to actually get to the Finals. I don't know. I mean, it's, it's not at the top, right? Like these guys are playing 40 plus minutes. They rightfully are exhausted. You know, it's, it's hard to do that. It's that you don't have enough guys that you can share the load with, like who can buy you five minutes when you need it. And you know, it's, you know how this goes in the playoff, Fred. I mean, it's all of the teams now, there is a war of attrition going on to make it through the two and a half months of the playoffs. And, and if you just don't have the guys, it's just not going to happen.
- [46:49]
Fred Katz
I'm just hearing tibs in my head just bellowing, you prepare your body to do what you want it to do. And that's just all, it's all I'm hearing. The Tibbs line. The Tibbs line. When Tibbs. When Tibbs was the head coach at Salem State when he was 26 years old. He used to. He used to yell at the guys, Tell yourself you're not tired. Tell yourself you're not tired. Put your hands on your hips. Hands on the knees is a sign of weakness.
- [47:23]
Dave DeFore
I'll just let everyone know. It's 1:30am Eastern, Fred. Tell yourself you're not tired. All right, everybody, we're gonna get out of here. Thank you for listening. For Fred Katz, our favorite Xena Keda, I'm Dave Dufour and this has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us. Tell yourself you're not tired.
- [48:04]
Discover Advertiser
It's smart to always have a few financial goals. And a really smart one you can set is earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show see terms@discover.com credit card hi, this is
- [48:28]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Farnoosh Tarabi from so Money with Farnoosh Tarabi. And today I want to talk to you about BoostBubble. Quick money tips. Stop paying a carrier tax if your phone bill feels trapped in a pricey plan, this is your sign to unlock savings. Boost Mobile helps you reset your spending with the $25 Unlimited Forever plan, you can bring your own phone, pay $25, and get unlimited wireless forever. And that simple switch can unlock up to $600 in savings a year. That's money you could put towards paying down debt, investing, or something that actually brings you joy. Those savings are based on average annual single line payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com hey everybody.
- [49:18]
Taylor from Total Soccer Show
This is Taylor from the Total Soccer show and this episode is brought to you by Hotels.com the summer of soccer is right around the corner. And if you aren't using hotels.com to book the experience of a lifetime, it's worth asking why? As a member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. So whether you're following your team across North America this summer or planning a well earned escape after being glued to football for weeks on end, make sure you book on hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's all in the name. Hotels dot com.