The WAY TOO EARLY West Rankings

Summary

Podcast Summary: The WAY TOO EARLY West Rankings

Release Date: July 3, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Athletic NBA Daily titled "The WAY TOO EARLY West Rankings," hosts Dave DuFour, Zena Keita, and Esfandiar Baraheni, along with regular NBA reporters Andrew Schlecht and Alex Spears, engage in an in-depth analysis of the Western Conference's current landscape. They categorize teams into various tiers, discuss potential trades, player developments, and forecast the upcoming NBA season's dynamics. This summary captures the key points, discussions, and insights from their conversation.

---

Tier Structure Overview

The hosts establish a tiered ranking system to evaluate Western Conference teams, categorizing them into:

1. Tanks – Teams likely to tank for better draft positions.
2. Play-In Teams – Teams on the cusp of making the playoffs.
3. Dark Horses – Underdog teams with potential to surprise.
4. Fringe Contenders – Teams bordering on being serious contenders.
5. Contenders – Top-tier teams expected to compete for the championship.

---

1. Tanks

Discussion Highlights:

• Sacramento Kings vs. New Orleans Pelicans: The conversation centers on whether these teams are intentionally tanking or simply struggling due to poor performance.

  • Andrew Schlecht [07:39]: "We have the tanking teams starting with the Jazz, who are expected to struggle significantly."

  • Xena [08:15]: "The Jazz are the only known intentional tankers, with other teams like the Kings and Pelicans struggling unintentionally."

  • Andrew Schlecht [09:16]: "Utah might win as few as 15 games, potentially starting two rookies to rebuild."

Key Takeaway: The Utah Jazz are identified as the primary intentional tankers, while other struggling teams like the Kings and Pelicans are not actively seeking to tank but are underperforming.

---

2. Play-In Teams

Discussion Highlights:

• Memphis Grizzlies and Portland Trail Blazers: Debates on their positioning within the play-in bracket and potential to advance.

  • Xena [07:09]: "Memphis is viewed as a strong play-in team due to their top-end talent like Jaren Jackson."

  • G [14:47]: "Memphis should be considered a play-in team because of their talent and playoff readiness."

Key Takeaway: The Memphis Grizzlies and Portland Trail Blazers are seen as pivotal play-in teams with the potential to secure playoff spots, contingent on player performances and team dynamics.

---

3. Dark Horses

Discussion Highlights:

• Los Angeles Lakers and Dallas Mavericks: Evaluated for their potential to exceed expectations.

  • F [30:09]: "The Lakers could be considered dark horses due to potential improvements from LeBron James and offseason acquisitions."

  • Andrew Schlecht [36:36]: "The Mavericks have potential with Luka Doncic's development but face challenges with their supporting cast."

• Houston Rockets and Denver Nuggets: Analysis of their depth and star power.

  • G [70:22]: "The Denver Nuggets, led by Nikola Jokić, are frontrunners due to their depth and synergy."

  • F [75:12]: "Houston has both star power and depth, making them strong candidates as dark horses."

Key Takeaway: The Lakers, Mavericks, Rockets, and Nuggets are identified as dark horses with significant upside, driven by star players and strategic acquisitions, though their ultimate success hinges on individual and team performances.

---

4. Fringe Contenders

Discussion Highlights:

• San Antonio Spurs and Minnesota Timberwolves: Discussed for their potential to edge into contention with the right improvements.

  • Andrew Schlecht [38:14]: "The Spurs, with young talents like Wemby, have a chance to move into fringe contention if their development continues."

  • Xena [56:28]: "The Timberwolves, led by Anthony Edwards, have shown potential but need consistency to be serious contenders."

Key Takeaway: The Spurs and Timberwolves possess the foundational elements to become fringe contenders, contingent upon player development and team cohesion moving forward.

---

5. Contenders

Discussion Highlights:

• Denver Nuggets and Oklahoma City Thunder: Positioned as top contenders due to their star players and team dynamics.

  • G [70:07]: "Denver, with Nikola Jokić, remains a strong contender, especially with their enhanced depth."

  • F [81:37]: "The Thunder, driven by Anthony Edwards and internal development, are positioned as serious contenders."

Key Takeaway: The Denver Nuggets and Oklahoma City Thunder are viewed as the leading contenders in the Western Conference, thanks to their star cores and strategic team improvements.

---

Player and Team Dynamics

Jonathan Kuminga Trade:

• New Orleans Pelicans and Atlanta Hawks: The recent trade involving Jonathan Kuminga is scrutinized for its impact on both teams.

  • Xena [05:04]: "The trade appears one-sided, with the Pelicans gaining at the expense of the Hawks."

  • Andrew Schlecht [05:59]: "The Hawks showed excessive caution, potentially missing out on maximizing the trade's benefits."

Anthony Edwards' Development:

• Minnesota Timberwolves: Edwards is highlighted as a pivotal player whose growth could elevate the team to contender status.

  • G [21:52]: "Edwards' leadership and on-court performance are critical for the Timberwolves' success."

  • Xena [65:17]: "Edwards reminds us of Michael Jordan in terms of drive and mentality, indicating his potential to lead the team to higher tiers."

Team Injuries and Their Impact:

• Memphis Grizzlies: Concerns over Jaren Jackson's turf toe injury and its ramifications for the team's performance.

  • Xena [37:25]: "Jackson's injury could significantly derail Memphis' season if not properly managed."

  • F [37:39]: "Memphis is at risk of a substantial drop-off if key players remain sidelined."

---

Insights and Predictions

• Emphasis on Team Health and Depth: The hosts consistently stress the importance of maintaining player health and having a robust bench to navigate the grueling NBA season.

  • Andrew Schlecht [52:28]: "Teams with aging cores, like the Warriors and Clippers, face challenges in sustaining performance due to potential injuries."

• Strategic Additions and Trades: The discussion underscores the necessity for teams to make strategic moves to bolster their rosters, emphasizing internal development over external acquisitions.

  • Andrew Schlecht [78:51]: "Denver focuses on internal development, which is a sustainable approach for long-term success."

• Comparisons to Historical Teams: Anthony Edwards is compared to legendary figures like Michael Jordan for his leadership and drive, indicating high expectations for his future impact.

---

Conclusions

The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the Western Conference's landscape, highlighting the intricate balance between star power, team depth, player development, and strategic management. While certain teams like the Denver Nuggets and Oklahoma City Thunder emerge as frontrunners, others like the Memphis Grizzlies and San Antonio Spurs show potential that hinges on overcoming current challenges. The discussion emphasizes that the upcoming NBA season will be heavily influenced by player health, internal team growth, and the ability to adapt to evolving team dynamics.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Schlecht [07:39]: "We have the tanking teams starting with the Jazz, who are expected to struggle significantly."

• Xena [05:11]: "If the Luka Doncic trade didn't happen, this is the trade that we're calling the dumbest trade of the last decade."

• G [21:52]: "Edwards' leadership and on-court performance are critical for the Timberwolves' success."

• Andrew Schlecht [38:14]: "The Spurs, with young talents like Wemby, have a chance to move into fringe contention if their development continues."

• Xena [65:17]: "Anthony Edwards reminds us of Michael Jordan in terms of drive and mentality, indicating his potential to lead the team to higher tiers."

---

Final Thoughts

Listeners who tune into this episode can expect a nuanced understanding of the Western Conference's dynamics, enriched by expert analysis and candid discussions among seasoned NBA reporters. Whether you're a die-hard fan or a casual observer, the insights provided offer valuable perspectives on what to anticipate in the forthcoming NBA season.

Transcript

[Andrew Schlecht]

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[Dave DuFour]

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[Andrew Schlecht]

Welcome to the morning shoot around here on the Athletic NBA Daily's YouTube page. If you're listening to this on the podcast feed, get on over to the YouTube page. Hit subscribe like a video. Hey, maybe even just leave a comment. Maybe even a nice one. If you're feeling feeling that way with me, I've got Dave Tafour, Esper, Henny and Xena will join us later on. But you know, I've been consuming so much NBA coverage over the last several days and just made me think, hey, what does the west even look like now? Because like, people will just throw stuff around. They'll just say stuff about teams, you know, and like, what does it actually mean?

[Xena]

How do we including me, by the way, I've been saying all kinds of stuff. I was like, man, the Nuggets, are they the best team in the west now?

[Andrew Schlecht]

I don't absolutely. It's we're here to try to contextualize what's happened over the last few days. There's. There should. I mean there, there could be more trades. Obviously that happens. But you know, as far as free agency, I don't know if there's anything major that's going to happen. Yeah, Shape things.

[Xena]

The chat already telling us about a piece from Shemit Dua, which I haven't read yet.

[F]

Let me, let me, let me read you read you a quick please.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So good. It's so good.

[F]

The Hawks could not believe their good fortune. While the Pelicans would spend the next 24 hours facing enamorous backlash for their reckless decision making, Hawks executives weren't shy about sharing their details behind deals behind the deals lopsided structure with rival teams. One Eastern executive with knowledge of how the conversation went from Atlanta's perspective described a perplexing scene when senior vice president Troy Weaver made the call to Atlanta's Bryson Graham. Graham couldn't believe what was being offered. Graham asked for clarification multiple times to confirm the unprotected pick was indeed part of the deal. It got to the point where Hawks general manager Onsi Salehouse called Joe Dumars Directly to confirm himself. The Hawks waited nervously for Dumas Dumars to confirm, hoping he would not realize what was going on and walk the trade back. But the Pelicans persisted, and the Hawks got their deal. That is from Shamat Dua. He has a great, great sub stack that I highly recommend.

[Xena]

Very good.

[F]

Subscribe to yeah, in the know. But yes, shout out to shamet. And that is exactly how it went down.

[Xena]

So, I mean, I imagine that's how. How it went down. How else would it go down? How else would it go down? It's such a. It was such an unbelievable. Again, this is. This is. If the Luca Donage trade didn't happen, this is the trade that we're calling the dumbest trade of the last decade. And I mean, it's just insane. It is insane.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's. It's too cautious on my side for the Hawks, you know what I mean? Like, they should just be like, yep, let's do it. Sign it. You know, and then. And then you huddle up with your group and you're like, can you believe this is happening? Can you believe that they're, you know, instead they're. They are being so kind to Joe Dumars in this moment. Like, calling him personally, be saying, hey, man, are you sure that this is. Hey, are you sure that this is what you're doing? Like, there was.

[F]

There's. There's another part of this piece that I won't read out because it's longer, but it's about how basically everybody is speculating that Troy Weaver is actually running the show in New Orleans because, yes, you know, so, yes, basically, now, basically everybody is now calling New Orleans thinking they can get one over on the Pelicans like they did with the fish.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Got somebody that's from the DC area on your squad. Give them a call.

[Xena]

Emmanuel Quickley.

[F]

Hello.

[Xena]

There you go.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You are going to get just a boatload for whoever it is. Yeah, Quickly, this is a great time if you want to get off the CWICly contract quickly for Trey Murphy, man, it's time. Hey, listen, just. Just send him what Quickly's zip code is when he was growing up. And, you know, you'll be able to. You'll be able to make it happen.

[F]

Oh, my God.

[Xena]

I mean, listen, 804 right down the road. So if Troy Weaver's looking for somebody to sign to attend day, I'll take that money.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You should let him know. You should let him know that you're from Virginia.

[Xena]

Hey, you want to get me in that front office? What do you want to do?

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's. That's how it works.

[Xena]

Yeah. I mean, apparently, that's how it works.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I don't. I don't think.

[F]

I love how we've started this. So.

[Xena]

Mike Weisberg got us going this morning.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes.

[Xena]

Thank you, Mike. Appreciate you, Mike. Mike.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, so the purpose of this shoot around this podcast, this stream is to rank the West. And so I have five tiers. We've got the Tanks, which we'll start with first. We have the play in teams. We have the dark horses, like the 4, 5, 6, 7 ish range. We have the fringe contenders, and we have contenders. So let's start with the tanks, guys. Who. Who's tanking?

[Xena]

Well, that's the question, right?

[Andrew Schlecht]

We can make our, like, sub. We can make our rankings within the tiers. Because, listen, I'm not. I'm not gonna do the whole Seth part now. Oh, it's not a ranking. We're gonna do rankings and tears. Okay.

[Xena]

Shots fired.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes. Shots fired at Seth.

[Xena]

Even did the Voice.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I'm not doing that. I'm not doing the. The cop out. Well, these are tears. They're not ranking. No, these are rankings and tears. All right. Not doing that.

[Xena]

Tears meant to give you tears, especially the first goodness.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like, no more cop.

[F]

So can we just. Can we get it out of the way?

[Xena]

Well, I want to talk about this tanking thing because, well, obviously, the Jazz are. Are dead last. Right. Okay. Yeah, we are all on the same page, but are they the only team that's actually tanking in the West?

[F]

There are silent tankers in the West, I think.

[Xena]

Okay. The Jazz Pelicans are going to be bad, but they're not. They're trying.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're not intentionally tanking.

[Xena]

Right, Right. So the Jazz are the only intentional tank that we know. I agree. Okay. I just want to make sure that we're clear on that. I expect these other teams to just be bad. Yes. On accident. Like, trying the opposite. Well, dude, Utah, they're bad on purpose.

[F]

Think about it like this. Like, whoever is at the bottom of this conference has to play the rest of these teams four times. Right. Or, like, at a minimum three times. And that, to me, you're just in the position to tank. Otherwise. Yeah. Utah's the worst, though. There's no chance that Utah ends up even. What are we doing over under on 20 games for the Jazz to win?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Under.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah. Again, man, it's. It's wide open in the East. I think the west, like, you look at how competitive it is and how many teams Actually think they have a shot. Yeah. Utah might win 15 games.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

God, that would rock.

[Xena]

They're gonna. They're gonna start two rookies, right? I mean, as long as everybody stays put, you know, they're not gonna be involved in some sort of trade, but they're probably going to start two rookies as cards. Listen, be awful.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Sign Poku. Bring him. Bring him on in. Bring him on in. We got Xenicada here. We just started our making our tier rankings here. We're starting with the tanking teams. I don't think this team is tanking, but they're tanking. Sacramento Kings.

[Xena]

Oh, you have them 14.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Are you.

[Xena]

Interesting.

[F]

I would put the pelicans 14.

[Xena]

Well, okay, because we're. Yeah, yeah. I had the Pelicans 14th as well.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Talk to me.

[G]

What is.

[Xena]

What is all the Pelicans, I think is kind of obvious. I mean, what we've just seen in the last 10 days.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Talking about the roster. I understand. Like, I. I hate everything they've done.

[Xena]

Yeah. Jordan Pool is going to be their starting point guard, I'm assuming. Right.

[F]

And how many games is Zion Williamson going to play?

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's a great question.

[G]

That's a great question.

[Xena]

How do those pieces that they just picked up even fit?

[F]

They're gonna start two rookies. Are they gonna start.

[Xena]

They're starting Kavon Looney, actually, that. I heard that the part of the reason that Looney is there is because he's gonna have the opportunity to start. He's not gonna back up. Yeah. So the Rockets were interested in Kavon Looney, but come on, Luna didn't want to necessarily go. I mean, the opportunity to make a tiny bit more money.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Instead of Capella. Instead of capella.

[Xena]

Yeah. Instead of umbrella.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, okay.

[Xena]

But instead of going there and being a backup, he wanted a chance to start New Orleans.

[G]

You know, if that is true, I commend him. I commend him for asking for that because he made no stink about it at. In Golden State. About.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[G]

You know, Trace Jackson, Davis, and then eventually Quentin Post starting over him. So. Okay. But I still am looking at that backcourt in New Orleans and trying to.

[F]

Figure out what's they might have. Defensive rating of 130. Like, what is.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Who is the. They could have the worst.

[F]

Who is the second best defender on the Pelicans? We know the best defender. It's Herb Jones.

[Xena]

Who's second best?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Murph.

[Xena]

Trey Murphy.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Murph.

[Xena]

Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. They are not good.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What's the. What's the Kings? What's the King's backcourt situation.

[F]

I mean, Dennis Schroeder and Zach Levine.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. It's gonna be so much better than the Pelicans.

[G]

But that's actually a good question. Does.

[Xena]

I think it's also pretty good.

[G]

Zach? I mean, I think I would take this, the Sacramento backcourt over New Orleans in terms of two way.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's like. That's like deciding, like, what gas station sandwich you want the most. Like, come on.

[Xena]

Always go with the gas station cheeseburger.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's like, you want the ham and cheese or the turkey and cheese? Gas station sandwich. Like, which one do you want?

[Xena]

Sandwich. That bread is so wet, dude.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's what I'm saying. That's what this is. That's what we're deciding.

[F]

Wait, have you guys had that plastic wrap, like, the one that comes in the can, you know I'm talking about?

[Xena]

Yeah.

[F]

In the gas.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[F]

Don't have that.

[Xena]

I pop that thing in the microwave and somehow the bread is hard.

[F]

Yes.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Never, ever.

[F]

That is the Sacramento Kings right there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[G]

I really hate you guys for this right now.

[Xena]

Oh, yeah.

[G]

Now I'm drinking a protein shake.

[Xena]

So it's like, oh, I like to road trip. I've stopped eating fast food completely. Like, and I mean, we've talked about this. Like, I. I basically become a pescatarian. And I will tell you what I do not. I do not miss the gas station burger. I thought I would because it's sort of this, like, road trip rite of passage. I share one with the dogs.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I don't know.

[G]

Hot dog.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I don't know what you're talking about, Dave.

[G]

Yeah, I've never.

[Xena]

You're going to. Okay. You got to go to the truck stops, not like regular gas stations. Number one, because the food at a truck stop is always going to be a little bit better.

[F]

I remember I had some great tacos at a gas station once.

[Xena]

You will get a surprisingly good burger at, like, a Loves truck stop, dude.

[F]

Oh, I've heard Loves is incredible. You Americans really love your gas stations, man. They are like.

[Xena]

It's.

[F]

Well, it's like a Walmart. It's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Loves is not incredible. Loves is not a standard.

[Xena]

Loves is standard.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Love says to me, loves is not good.

[G]

You could, like, talk about a Bucky's, you know, right in the south.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That could be like. Don't. Don't talk to me.

[F]

I don't know what it was. I saw a video of, like, this gas station that basically was the size of a Walmart. Bucky. I Know, that's like buck a bucky's, right?

[Dave DuFour]

Yeah.

[F]

You could spend like a day there's.

[Xena]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Andrew, who.

[G]

Who was the. Is it. Was it a gas station that sponsored the. The jersey logo for okc?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, it's. It's loves. Yeah.

[Xena]

All right.

[G]

It is love.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay.

[G]

Okay.

[F]

Shout out loves, man.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Shout out to the love family. They're great.

[F]

Anyways, this is. This is the gas station category of.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, we should. We should make this the.

[Xena]

We need it sponsored again. I'm gonna be driving to Vegas in a week, so any, you know, maybe BP executive watching the show? You know, my preference would be if. If an EV maker, you know, wanted to sponsor the trip out, I would.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Drive that shout out to Bob Morquia, who's sponsoring my. My trip out to Vegas.

[F]

Big shout out to Bob.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Somebody got a.

[F]

Someone is mowing their lawn.

[G]

Oh, my gosh. You're absolutely right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Let me.

[G]

Let me go fix that real quick. I'll be right back.

[Xena]

Welcome to the morning shoot around.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I'm. I'm fine switching these. If we want to switch them.

[F]

I'm. I'm voting to switch.

[Xena]

I think they're. Listen. Yeah. I think pelicans are worse than the Kings.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You think that Domas is like the best player.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Of anybody on.

[F]

Yes.

[Andrew Schlecht]

On either team. Okay.

[Xena]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, demarna Rosen still plays for the Kings. You know, like, they still have. We don't know how long quality guard play. Right, Right. Well, he's Miami's backup. Right. So.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Miami didn't get their guy.

[F]

Also, the Kings might get Kaminga at some point. I saw some reporting on that yesterday.

[G]

They put together a very weak package, like super weak. I don't know if that's gonna happen. We'll see.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[F]

That's a signing trade, though. You can't much.

[G]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Xena]

So I just wonder. I wonder what kind of money Kamingo winds up with. Like, where that number winds up. That's 22. Is that what. Is that what people are saying right now?

[F]

No, no, I'm just making a guess here. Based on the big market, 20.

[Xena]

I feel like that's a pretty good deal, honestly, if somebody gets him at that money. I mean, he's so young and he clearly has. There's some potential there. I mean, he's been in a weird situation his whole career. I mean, his. His role changed week to week, sometimes dayto day, it even felt like. So I. I'm. I don't know. I. I'm not convinced that. That it's A bad move to throw that money at him. I, I just don't think the. I don't know. I don't know what the Kings are doing, you know, like, why the Kings would be going after him.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, so, so let's. I'm going to stop you there because at this point, like, what, what is the best situation for Jonathan Kaminga? Like, we talk about him as being like this young, talented guy. He's got all this potential, all this stuff. Where is he going to become? Okay, so you're talking about he can be the. Somebody has to score the points guy.

[F]

Tank.

[Xena]

Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So, okay, so is that really. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if that's, if that's the situation that I think that we're in. I don't, I don't, I don't know.

[F]

Optimistically about Kaminga. The goal would be to go somewhere where he can stretch his legs offensively and hopefully through that process, he realizes like a effective, efficient version of his game that can eventually lead to him playing for a good team. That's like the best case scenario, in my opinion.

[G]

You know.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[G]

Maybe. I think we're underestimating what Jonathan Kaminga can do heavily. Jonathan Kaminga also, you know, of course can score the bucket, I mean, score the ball really, really well. But he was also a solid on ball, defender in space, team defender, struggle figuring out exactly where he should be. But on ball could definitely got better in terms of his foot speed and being able to stay in front of somebody and making life hell. That's one of the reasons why Jalen Green really struggled against the warriors this season, was Jonathan Kaminga being able to handle that. And he did this significantly throughout the playoffs, not this past year, but years before. So I just feel as if, if some team and I think at this point the warriors, like, I don't know how long it can take you to figure out where, what role you want, but I really kind of, I'm kind of hoping at least that what happened with Ty Jerome in that, you know, he was kind of utilized as a backup. He was, you know, he had a, he had a secondary role with the Warriors. He goes to Cleveland and kind of gets unlocked in a bigger still secondary, but in a still in a bigger role. I'm hoping that that can happen at least the first season with Jonathan Kaminga, because I do. And I'm curious what you guys think about this. I do think there's something to be said about players leaving the warriors outside of Kevin Durant Players leaving the warriors and kind of having a stamp on them that if you couldn't make it in the Warrior system, we don't know how to use you. We don't know what to do with you. Like, a lot of players leave that system and can't find success, especially young players like Jacob Evans III, Patrick Baldwin Jr. I mean, Ryan Rollins was able to find some success in Milwaukee. Awesome. But, you know, Jordan Pool being relegated over to Washington. Like, there's. There's been a lot of young talent to go elsewhere and not find immediate success other than Ty Jerome. And I really hope that that happens for Jonathan Kaminga wherever he lands. And I could see him in New Orleans, I could see him in. In a Memphis, I could see him in a team that likes to run and go. But the only reason I say Memphis NOLA is hard is because they need as much spacing as possible. And right now, Jonathan coming. It doesn't provide that. So, yeah, yeah, I think.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think about Kelly Oubre if I'm thinking about Kaminga. Yeah, that's a great point too. Are very similar and that they are just like, hey, let me cook, kind of guys. That when it comes down to it, and Uber has done a really good job of this in Philly, it's like, hey, Kelly, you've got like three jobs, okay? And Kaminga is a. He's far away from becoming that. It took Kelly lots of stops to become the player he is today.

[G]

That's the point.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And I think that Kaminga, to me, it's not about the. It's never been about the skill level. It's never been about the scoring. It's never been about the body type. He has everything that you would want. And the reason he fell in the draft was because of his mentality and because of his willingness to be the teammate that everybody wants him to be. And those are the reasons why he's still in restricted free agency. He has a sign, an extension. The warriors know they have this talent, but they also know they can't really move forward with him either. And so they're. They're caught in this, in between with him. And now it's like, hey, who wants the guy who's immensely talented, you know, is going to not be good for your team culture immediately. I think he's got me.

[G]

I don't know where that comes from. All the warriors say that he's the best teammate. Like, he's a great teammate.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Of course they do. They're trying to get rid of him. Sure.

[G]

But I'm saying this, like, even in year two, year three, like, everyone talks about like the, the coaching staff, everyone, like in casual, off the record kind of conversations where I'm just talking about jk, no one has anything bad to say about it.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's not him being. I don't know where that person. It's not him being a bad person. Yeah, it's him. It's. It is like totally like how he fits on the basketball court and where.

[Xena]

I mean, I've heard stuff where he.

[G]

I think that that clarity has to be made though.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. Not a bad person that. Just somebody that doesn't know where he fits on the basketball court yet.

[G]

Yeah, there we go. Okay. I think that that's a very valid assessment of him. I think when people say, like, oh, you know, how is he as a teammate? That has permeated. I think that concept without the context of on the floor versus off the floor.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[G]

Has also permeated. It's been, it's been a thing that's been around his personality. This is not the. We do not want to talk about Jonathan all day long.

[F]

Hey, I will just.

[Xena]

Although he's the most interesting guy.

[G]

Yeah, he is absolutely swinging piece right now.

[F]

I'll just say this right now.

[Xena]

The way I said the most interesting.

[F]

The way that Andrew described him and I made a joke earlier in the comments saying Kaminga is forward Ayton. That really describes the Ayton situation in Phoenix. If you remember, he was a restricted free agency, wildly talented, got that offer sheet from the Indiana Pacers. Eventually, like, it got to the point where with the organization it just wasn't feasible anymore. And so he got traded to the Portland Trailblazers. There is also this like, cloud over Ayton's head of like, what kind of buy in he has, how locked in he is, how good of a defender he can be, how he can use his talents. It's not about him as a person, but it's just.

[Xena]

Although the Blazers start putting that stuff out there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[G]

I was just gonna say, I mean, they started to say that about Ayton too. And I think the sun said this about Ayton, about how he showed up off the court and if he like being on time, being respectful of those type of things. So I feel like those. You're absolutely right in terms of the, the basketball aspect of it. But I think I am always like very sensitive to the Jonathan Kaminga narrative around him being like a bad person. Because we hear it a lot in the Bay Area of like, oh, he's selfish. He's this, he's that. And they've used what, you know what Andrew was saying about dropping in the draft to say that like, that that was a conversation being had with GMs, that he's not a good character person. And that is like, where I'm like, always like, hold on, let me raise my hand. I got to say something about that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just more about fit and like that. It's becoming more and more important. And as you. As you are spending tens of millions of dollars in this new cap environment, it just means more like you. You have to have everybody pulling on the same rope or else you become a gas station sandwich team. Okay. That's just what happens. Any other teams that belong in this tier, I mean, Phoenix is the only.

[Xena]

I'm ready to put Phoenix.

[F]

I would put the Suns in there, too.

[Xena]

Yeah. Because they're not. Again, they're just bad. They're not even tanking. They're just bad. They're just not good playing. Not going to be good. Who's there? Like, Chris Paul is probably their situation. Right.

[F]

Mark Williams is going to be their center. They're gonna have Dylan Brooks and Jalen Green and Devin Booker. That'll probably win them 30 games, 33 games, something like that. But that is.

[Xena]

Yeah. It's wild, though, that I naturally just have them below the Blazers, which I did not expect when I. When we started this.

[F]

I'm gonna put the Blazers dangerously high here today. I'm just letting you guys know.

[Xena]

Oh, no.

[F]

I'm just letting you guys know how this year's.

[Xena]

This year's Pistons for. Yes. Is going to be the Blazers. Don't do that to yourself, man. Play out too many times. The west is too good. It's not the East.

[F]

I know the, the east version of this will be Atlanta, but I think we're all aligned.

[Xena]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were on Atlanta last year. I liked where Atlanta was.

[G]

Yeah, I know. I think. Yeah. I think Atlanta was in a good position last year, too.

[Xena]

Yeah. Like new gm. But it's a continuation of what they were building on. Like, I actually think Atlanta's had a good couple years.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They just had injuries. Yeah.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[F]

I can. I argue. Okay. The only other team that, like, might be bad that I'm kind of curious about, where you guys stand on is the Memphis Grizzlies. Like, they obviously have the top end talent in John Jaren. They made a trade to move Bane off and they, they added Cedric Coward, who they believe in. I don't know if that's good enough to be a good team in the Western Conference. Maybe it is. Maybe John Jaren are just awesome next year and that there's a possibility of that. But.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah.

[G]

Well, also I see them as a play in team.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, me too. I think that they're probably like this first play in spot and like a lot of it is not because like they're so awesome, but it's because like I don't trust any of these teams here below them.

[F]

Right, right.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have, I guess if we're getting to that tier. So I have the Blazers in that spot, but I have them below the Grizzlies just because, I mean, look man, the Grizzlies, like they have a track record. Yeah. This was the 2 seed all year until everybody got hurt. And I mean I just think that they are a better team than maybe we would give them credit for. But they took a step back in my opinion. I mean you lose Desmond Bay and they, they chose to take a step back. It's a great asset play. I get it. Yeah. But I have, I have them a little bit higher than you guys. I have the Blazers as my first, you know, like on the bubble play in team. Right. I think that they could make the play in.

[F]

So I guess my pitch for the Blazers is that like they were they the dark horse. I would put them probably in the dark horse category. Not dark horse like contender, but dark horse to slip into like the top eight or top six if they have an incredible season. Now there's a couple of things that have to happen there. Their defense has to be just as good as it was for the second half of the year, which was like top 10. And I think they even got better defensively by letting go of DeAndre, to be honest with you.

[Xena]

Well, more clinging is only going to make their defense better.

[Andrew Schlecht]

By the way.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh yeah.

[F]

And letting go of Simon swapping in Holiday, like their defense should be very, very good. Like I, I would imagine we will have a lot of athletic pieces breaking down this Portland Trailblazers defense and why it's so special. That's basically how it's going to end up being next season. They're going to be a media darling team in my, you know, kind of. I don't know though, like in the west, how are they going to score offensively? It's a lot of pressure on Denny Abdia. It's a lot of pressure on Scoot Henderson, a lot of pressure on Sharp.

[Xena]

Yep.

[F]

And maybe those guys are ready to take the next step. But that's the question that has me battling between playing and dark horse here.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, yeah. I do worry about the scoring. I don't, I don't know like who is. Is Denny going to be their leading scorer next year? Is it Shaden Sharp?

[G]

Absolutely. I think it's Denny. I think he gets unleashed even more than he was last year. But the thing is it's. For me it's the lack of depth. Like there's no one else I can think of that's going to come off the bench in that second unit and maintain anything. Even if that first group goes off, which we've seen them be able to stay in games. Those were the games. Right. Last year that we kept being like, guys, you got to watch the NBA. It's actually a lot of fun. Portland was often the team on the other side of the ball in those kind of conversations. But I don't know, I'm literally looking. I was like, let me look up their roster. I'm like, I don't know what else they have. I mean, I don't, I don't what the defense on Tumani Kamara, but yeah.

[F]

Right to Monica Mara. I think they have pretty good depth at the center position with Rob Williams.

[G]

Yeah.

[F]

And do Op Wreath like I. Jeremy Grant is still a basketball player.

[G]

Is still a basketball player. Yeah.

[F]

Still a basketball player.

[G]

Big time scorers.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Jeremy Grant shot 38% from. From 2.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[F]

That was crazy. I remember hearing that stat in Slamming Jam.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I, I don't, I don't know what Jeremy Grant. I mean, if you get. I mean, I guess you can't get worse than that is maybe like the argument for Jeremy Grant.

[F]

I'm fine with putting Portland here. I just. My argument would be that there's. Honestly for Memphis too. There's upside for them to move into that next category if all things play out well, if they have a couple of their top end guys go off offensively, you know.

[G]

Yeah, I put them in the playing category. I don't know if I put them in the top half of the play in category though. I feel like they will. They're one of those teams that has to play two games to get in there. Whereas I see Memphis being as I think you mentioned Andrew or Dave, but being that team that ends up at the top just needs one win to get in because they do have two players that know how to score and also know what it takes to get into that play. Playoff conversation. So Portland right now does not.

[F]

This is the next Step is where it gets interesting. It's like, do you guys have any other teams in the play in category?

[Xena]

Yeah, I have Lakers, Lakers and Mavericks. The rest of my play in.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's. Whoa. I'm with you. Because if you look at the rest of the teams, it's like, who else are you putting there? Like, Clippers had a great year.

[Xena]

Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like the. I think the warriors are somewhere in between this area as well. I think the spurs are somewhere.

[G]

Yep.

[Xena]

Yep.

[G]

Okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And then the other teams, you can.

[F]

So you guys have the Mavs in the playing, huh?

[G]

I think.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[G]

I don't know. I don't know about that. Don't put me in the. You guys. I think I'm looking at them as a dark horse.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, list me three guards on the Mavericks.

[F]

Brandon Williams. Brandon Williams. Brandon Williams.

[Xena]

I was gonna say d' Angelo Russell. That's all the name wrestles there.

[F]

Yeah.

[Xena]

That's a play in ass point guard. What? I'm sorry.

[F]

He is a plan.

[Xena]

That is a play in ass point guard. You got D. Lowe is your point guard.

[G]

But maybe he will be encouraged by his surroundings in having, you know, the opportunity to play with AD Again.

[Xena]

Oh, yeah. No, this is, you know, he'll be.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Encouraged by his surroundings to take the ball all the time. Yeah.

[G]

I don't know.

[Xena]

Yeah, they're playing, but the thing is, they look, they're gonna be missing Kyrie Irving all year. The play in is a great spot for that. That's amazing season for them without Kyrie.

[F]

They'll actually be.

[G]

So you guys don't think there was enough out of Max Christie towards the end of the season that you saw, like, when Max Christie. We love talking about AD Going over to Dallas and how he was doing and he played well. But Max Christie, I thought was unleashing and unlocking something as well. I agree. During that time.

[F]

But he's not a guard. He's like a wing to me. He's like a shooting, guarding guard. Like two dribbles.

[Xena]

He can make two dribbles. He can't. He can't set up your offense. Like, I mean, it's. It's similar. Like.

[G]

Sure.

[Xena]

It's kind of like what Milwaukee is dealing with. Who is dribbling for you, you know, who is gonna put the ball on the ground and make plays for the guys and they just don't have that.

[F]

Like, I will say, I think the Lakers. I know the off season isn't done yet, but I do think there's a chance the Lakers can be in the next category 100.

[Xena]

Like, they need a starting center. That's, I mean, look, deandre Aiden is a great signing. Like, it's very little money and if he's a backup, it's great. I don't like him as their starter. Right. Like, that doesn't get you into the playoffs as far as I'm concerned. He would have to, he would have to really do something different than what he's done.

[F]

I think there's a chance him and Luca look good together. Like, he, like Luca will make his life incredible.

[Xena]

Yes. I love deandre Aiden as a player. Like, when he's playing and forceful. I mean, I'd love to watch him play. Right. Like, he looks like someone designed, you know, in a computer what a basketball player is supposed to look like and move like, and shoot like, and like everything is so smooth and textbook. It's that force and effort that's always lacking with him. And maybe, you know, maybe this is what he needs, I guess, to get him going. Maybe, like, he's motivated because it's a contract year and I mean, he does like money, so we'll see. The, the nice thing is, again, I've said this, I'll repeat it again. Like, the weather in LA is great, so it's very easy to keep motivated during the winter. You know, maybe that's a thing for him. I, I, we'll get hopefully something closer to that 20, 21 season. Yeah, I mean, he was.

[F]

I think they'll also make a trade. They'll, they'll do something here for sure.

[Xena]

More.

[F]

It just depends on what it. I don't know. I think, I think the Lakers have also, the LeBron situation is, it kind of puts a cloud over everything they're doing right now too. So you don't know if he's going to be on the team next year. Although that sounds crazy to say, but. Yeah, I would, I would, I would probably put the Lakers more as a dark horse than a playing team, but I understand that there's four teams that have to be.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah.

[G]

So I, yeah, this is what I want to understand. I'll say this, this method of doing this exercise is actually incredibly difficult. Going from the bottom upwards. I know it's normally the way it's done. I'm just saying it always is so tough. So just understand we've got contenders, fringe contends, dark horses play in and gas station sandwiches. And how many teams do you guys want to do per tier?

[Andrew Schlecht]

You can. So we don't have to have a specific amount.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

We don't even have to have four in this tier. Like, right. Like, if we believe the Lakers are a dark. Yeah, put them there.

[G]

I feel like the play in category is the only category that makes sense to have four, because there's quite literally four. Four and then. But I am like, if I was really bottom heavy right now.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Well. And.

[G]

Oh, yeah, the Lakers and the. I can see the Lakers and Dallas being in that dark horse category. I'm looking at. I know what you're talking about. Like, still thinking about Dallas, I'm like, does Dante Exum become kind of like a Malcolm Brogdon and he kind of becomes that person that brings the ball up and sets things up? Like, could they do that?

[F]

A little bit of that? Yeah, sure.

[G]

I don't know. I've seen it. I can see it. I can see it.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, you gotta do a lot of squinting to see some of these things, though.

[G]

Yeah, Dallas, maybe that's fair.

[Xena]

But I can't believe I've been replaced as the optimist here where Xena is just like, well, yeah, what if. What if Tante Exum is like a totally better player than he's ever shown as he is.

[G]

He was hurt. He came back from being hurt. Okay. Like, maybe give him the off season as well. Like, you don't know.

[Xena]

I love Dante. I. I think he's been pretty good.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But the guy likes Pokemon cards. Like, what's not to like?

[Xena]

But if you're going into your season saying, hey, what if Dante Exum has a great year, that's a problem.

[Andrew Schlecht]

We don't need a great year.

[G]

Right. These teams don't need a great year. They need roles filled. I think.

[Xena]

Oh, I think no. The Mavericks need a guard to have a great year if they're going to be something above the play. It.

[F]

Can I. Can I. Can I make my pitch for the Lakers being the dark horses? The fact that Luca Doncic is going to have a full season and a full summer under his.

[Xena]

He looks so skinny right now.

[F]

Sure, sure, we can do the skinny. Talk about the offseason too. But do think that matters. He will be healthier, hopefully heading into this season. That in itself, it's sort of like Giannis with the Bucks, where it's like, you have a talent that good, that should put you in the category to at least be a dark horse in the playoffs. That's my pitch.

[Xena]

Lakers.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think I agree. I think I agree with you.

[G]

I'm with that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And what's going to happen. This happens every single year. Is there is going to be unforeseen injuries that happen to some team that's going to push them down to the gas station sandwich tier.

[F]

Sure.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And it just happens. It happens every single year. You don't know who it's going to be. New Orleans was probably in the play in dark horse area last year. A crazy amount of injuries pushed them all the way down. And so it's going to happen to somebody. And so this. Everybody will get rearranged here due to unforeseen injuries.

[F]

Well, Jaren Jackson has turf toe. Like, we're already there, you know? You know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. I mean, that. That could happen again.

[Xena]

Okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Memphis.

[Xena]

And he's having surgery on this toe.

[F]

He already had surgery.

[Xena]

Okay.

[G]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Turf toe. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing timing on that turf toe.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's great. It is actually great timing. I. I think AJ Mitchell had it and missed three months with the Thunder and it's feeling good now. And so I think that, that that's a realistic timeline for Jaren too.

[F]

Garland too, right? I think Garland, yes.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Although Jaren has a much bigger toe, so I don't know.

[Xena]

Well, maybe.

[F]

I don't.

[Xena]

I mean, I don't know. I got. My turf toe is bad. Like, I. I don't know if you guys have ever inj. But it's pretty rough. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty rough. I imagine if you're a seven footer, it's even worse. Yeah.

[F]

And Edie, we don't know how long Zach Ed is going to be out for, so maybe Memphis jumps back in the.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[F]

Who knows?

[Xena]

Yeah. Potential to be extremely bad next year if. If anything happens to Jaren. Right. Like, they are just off a cliff. We already know Jaw's not going to be out there for at least 20 games. Like, just pencil that in. So Memphis, I think, has a. A very, very harsh drop off coming this season if. If any one thing happens to them that's bad. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Can I say something that's Anti NBA podcaster.

[F]

What's up?

[Xena]

Yes. Always are.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This. Should we just put the spurs here.

[G]

At the top? I think they're the one game in. Of the play in.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like they're.

[G]

That's exactly what I was going to say next.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like they're Bears.

[Xena]

Yeah. At the top of the play in. Yeah, I think that's about right.

[G]

I think they're top of the plan. That's what I was gonna say.

[F]

Wait, I thought the top of the plane was the one on the right. Anyways.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Visually. Yeah.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This is the worst playing team.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[G]

Second, third, Got it, got it, got it. Okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

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[Dave DuFour]

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[Andrew Schlecht]

This is not a drill. You can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence for just 49.99 when you switch to Boost Mobile. Wait, that's the actual fire alarm.

[G]

We need to go visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.

[Xena]

Restrictions apply. But yeah, I'm with you guys on the Spurs. I feel like I also again they're still figuring out what this is going to look like, you know when you look but they've got a lot of pieces that I that I'm into. Obviously the young guys are good y Luke Cornette s and I love that signing so much.

[F]

That's a big sign.

[Xena]

I could do. I could do 15 minutes on that.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That that is very much NBA podcast you're talking about. Oh my gosh. That is the most podcaster thing you could do is talk about Lou.

[Xena]

They've done a good job. Although I think moving away from Mamu might have been a mistake.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know also NBA podcaster. Let's try. Let's just count them out. Let's just go count him out.

[Xena]

You know, not as ATH pick as Mamu and I. I feel like they could run into some issues playing Luke and and Wemby together. Although I'm very much looking forward.

[F]

I'm so ready for the Mamu MIP season. Man. Come on, let's cook.

[Xena]

I need it mip. But yeah, I think this is a good spot for the Spurs. I think they are in that play in you know if they're look if they wound up to succeed it wouldn't shock me. Yeah. You know I wouldn't be like oh my God.

[F]

Exactly.

[Xena]

If that's the high end outcome.

[F]

Wemby just has a top five top top ten season and you know, I mean like he was on pace to be a first team all NBA player last year before he got hurt. I don't know. There's just a world in which their upside is a lot higher than this. But I think playing what if Wimby's.

[Xena]

The best player in the league. Yeah. This year. Right. Like this is a realistic conversation about this guy. Like he might just be the best player in the league next year. I don't know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Are his teammates ready to our teammates ready as well?

[F]

Entirely.

[Xena]

There at least are more guys. I mean have a dear and Fox and I like we've all kind of I think we've all gone through a roller coaster of, of thoughts on having de' Aaron Fox there. I think it was a good move. Like, I understand it. And now they've. That they've gotten lucky in the lottery. It feels superfluous to have him a little bit, but he is a really good player and they barely got to play together last year. You know, they did not get much run with the two of them. So I don't know. I mean, the spurs upside is home court advantage in the playoffs. Right? I mean, this is a team that if, if Wemby is a first team all NBA guy, let's say he's like.

[F]

Harper, a rookie of the year type of season.

[Xena]

Yeah. I mean this, this is a home court in the playoffs team potentially. But it's all about what happens with Wemby. And you know, in, in the chat we're being asked about Wemby's blood clot issue. I mean, my assumption is he, they don't like, he wouldn't be doing kung fu with the Shaolin Monks.

[F]

He wouldn't be in France if it was still a problem. Exactly.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[G]

So flying and mind you, flying to those places. Right, because that's.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah. He seems like a guy who's like been let outside for the first time in a long time. You know, he's popping up everywhere. Right. Like. So I'm hoping that this is a good sign for, for next season.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Who are the three?

[G]

I'm NBA podcaster. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I was gonna say who are the three best shooters on the Spurs?

[F]

Wemby.

[Xena]

Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Outside of when it's like we need to space the floor for Wemby. Right.

[F]

Let's see.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right, like this is about spacing the floor for Wimby. This is a floor spacing question.

[F]

Wemby Champagne, Keldon Johnson probably.

[Xena]

Is Harrison Barnes still there?

[F]

Yeah, he is still there.

[Xena]

Yeah. Yeah. So Harrison Barnes is probably like, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So are these like, oh my gosh, they've got the ball. We've got to close out to him, guys.

[F]

Honestly, Kelden Johnson, like, he shot 32 the last two years for the Harrison Barnes.

[G]

And so did. And so did Lou Cornette, by the way.

[F]

Yeah. Luke Cornett doesn't shoot anymore that much. He used to start his career, but.

[G]

I don't know if we would anymore.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So that's. I just want to throw a little bit of podcast and cold water on the spurs because, like, they don't have shooting.

[F]

Hey, by the way, Carter Bryant, their rookie, might end up being one of their best shooters.

[Xena]

Hey. And he can defend, so he's going to get played playing time there.

[F]

Yeah. But to your point, Andrew, that you're throwing in there and saying he's one of the best shooters.

[G]

So for me it was definitely Julian Chimpani and Keldon Johnson. Like they. If even if their percentages weren't there, they hit timely shots, both of them throughout the season. But I'm.

[F]

Oh right, we forgot about Devin Vassell. He's the. He's the guy. He's the best.

[G]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[G]

But one thing I'll also say, we cannot underestimate what having Harrison Barnes and Chris Paul on this team last year did for them. They. I feel like those veterans literally got them into shape. Like whip them into order.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[G]

And you know Chris Paul obviously is looking to leave. That was only a one year deal and Harrison Barnes doesn't seem like he's going anywhere. But whatever. I think how much de' Aaron Fox can step up as a veteran I think is going to be really huge and indicative beyond just what he does on the court basketball wise. But just keeping them in order because that every time you looked at a bench it was, you know, Chris Paul telling folks where to be coaching up Stefan Castle, coaching up to seven cell, even coaching up Darren Fox. So I think they on top of the basketball. It's definitely a. Who can make sure that those young guys know where they need to be and know what they need to be focused on in that moment alongside a wimb who's also very, incredibly mature already.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's a great point.

[F]

They also like they're. They're one MIP type of season away from being a top four team. Like if Vesel or Castle or someone along the lines of that has a really, really good season then they're in a different conversation.

[Andrew Schlecht]

If Castle wins ip. I. I am. I might.

[F]

I know.

[Xena]

Yeah. No, I know.

[F]

I said MIP type season.

[Xena]

Right.

[F]

You know like not stressing me.

[Xena]

I don't see it. Look, I don't see it with Vassell and. Or Kelton Johnson to be honest with you. Like those are. I don't, I don't think about those guys really as even long term pieces. I think Vassell over Keldon Johnson for sure. But man, they. Somebody in the chat said Sam House.

[G]

I agree with that.

[Xena]

Eric, Eric Weiss. Sam Houser would be great there. Like they, they could use that sort of a shooter.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

A real floor spacer who's willing to be a high volume 3 point guy. I mean like you Know, like, if Klay Thompson somehow was to land there, that's the kind of shooter that they really are missing. And that would. That would be a game changer for them.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. Be grace to have the greatest shooter of all time.

[Xena]

Of all time. Right.

[F]

So the warriors next category are in Dark horse, right?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, warriors here. Clippers here as well. Yes, I actually.

[Xena]

Yeah, I would put the Clippers one up.

[F]

Yeah, same.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay.

[G]

I have the clip after their playoff performance. I would put the Clippers on fringe contends as well.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, talk to me.

[Xena]

I have Clippers and Wolves in that. In that range, in the fringe contents together.

[G]

Yeah, yeah, I'm with that. I'm with that.

[F]

I honestly think the Thunder should be in a category of their own, by the way. But that's another conversation.

[G]

But I just think you. You're gonna get another season of that wonderful duo of James Harden and Navita Zubots. And we saw that James Harden found a way to play defense this past season, and he was actually really good at just getting his hands and stuff. And that defense was actually on display throughout the playoffs, except for that last game against Denver. But we also get, hopefully a longer season of Kawhi Leonard. And I don't know, you know, we know his injury situation is always precarious. However, it seemed like things were clicking towards the end of the season in terms of. Get back on the floor.

[F]

I'm gonna be real with you, Xena. I think they should copy and paste exactly what they did last.

[Xena]

What they did. Yep.

[G]

Yeah.

[F]

Like playing.

[G]

Oh, you mean not playing him?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[F]

Kawhi, you're not playing for the first 20 games of the year. We have our infrastructure here.

[G]

Interesting.

[F]

We'll see you December 30th.

[Xena]

He played 37 games, and the Clippers still won 50 games last year. This is my thing with the Clippers is, like, they are a pretty good basketball team in the regular season, even without their best player. And when Kawhi was playing, I mean, Kawhi looked like the best player on the court.

[G]

Yeah.

[Xena]

On some of those nights in a series that had Nicola Jokic, you know, I. I just. That's a guy that. He can win a title by himself, and if he could just be healthy, get to the playoffs, I think that they got us. I mean, they had a shot this year at a. At a time. They pushed the Nuggets. The Nuggets obviously pushed the Thunder. I just feel like they were a team that was easy to overlook because they didn't have Kawhi all year, you know, and Then, you know, you get back and like that. Remember the first stretch with Kawhi? He didn't look great and we were like, oh, maybe this isn't going to be their year. And then things were clicking.

[G]

Exactly. I think that's, that's the main reason I have them as French contenders. Like, the more, I mean, I know you guys are saying copy and paste. Either way, the more he plays, the more he's available to the Clippers.

[F]

For sure.

[G]

He's just put in a great position. Norman Powell played phenomenally while Kawhi was out. And I really, really liked Ben Simmons coming in for this team, especially on the defensive end. Like, they, it allowed them to have some different looks.

[F]

Yeah, probably, they probably won't have Ben Simmons again this year, but they will have, they will have Brooke Lopez and I think Brooklyn. So the stat that I've been throwing around is the, The Clippers were 15 points per 100 possessions. Worse with Zubacz off the floor. Brook Lopez will at least provide them with a baseline of competency defensively in like 18 minutes a night, you know, 20 minutes a night. It doesn't have to be the 35 minutes that he would play for the bucks or the 30 minutes that he would play for the Bucks. This is a guy who has to play backup minutes and can provide them with the look as like a stretch, five knock down shots. I think the connection with him and Harden will be good. I, I like that move so much that I would probably put them as fringe contenders.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Warriors are old, by the way. That's, that's, this is my biggest warriors issue. These guys are old. I mean, what's it going to look like when Jimmy Butler has to miss 30 games? Yeah. And I mean, you know, Steph has become, at this point, you know, you got to be very careful with Steph, I think, because it's all about the playoffs and even Draymond, you know, like these guys are, they're pretty old. And when you're the core of your team in an 82 game season is old. Like we've just seen this too many times.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. And they're trying to get older, by the way. Trying to get out.

[Xena]

Getting Al Horford, I like, I respect to Al Horford, he was great last year. But man, I just cannot wrap my head around these NBA teams treating the human body like 38 years old isn't like reality. Yeah, it is odd to me.

[F]

Like five years ago it would have made sense.

[Xena]

Yeah. We're hinging our entire season and this is really what it is like Al Horford. That's a season signing. Like they are doing this saying Al Horford is the move that puts us over the top. It feels. It feels risky. Yeah, I agree.

[F]

I agree.

[Xena]

Just to sign Chris Paul too. While you're at it, trade for LeBron. Get all the guys who are over 36.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Just the whole roster. Do the opposite of the Thunder. See if you can just play zone all year. You know, like that's a way to get those old guys into the playoffs. Just we're gonna zone up two, three, zone. No big deal.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay.

[Xena]

Don't get back on defense every time. You know, play like pickup and. And see if you can see how that works.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I still trust Steph Curry, though.

[Xena]

Of course.

[G]

At this point, that's my thing. I can't count him out.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. I think they're still a dark horse. I think if they stayed healthy, I.

[Xena]

Think that they would have beaten the Wolves.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think they would have beaten the wolves as well.

[Xena]

100.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So I think that, that we. And. And this is what happens when you're. When you have an older team is like the conversation is all about if you're healthy. Same with the Clippers, you know?

[Xena]

Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like, is Kawhi at 34? He just turned 34. Happy birthday, Kawhi. How much. How much can we trust that his body's going to hold up? Because it is. It is inevitable that there is going to just be like this drop dead date for him. That it's like, and now it's over.

[Xena]

You know, he's the oldest 34 year old in pro sports.

[F]

Undeniably, yes.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And it's. And it's unfair to him, you know, that this has happened to his body. Like it just is. But it's just a harsh reality for the Clippers. And I agree with you. Like, hey, they have proven that with the coaching and with the roster they have, there can be fine in the regular season. And so just like let Kawhi go on vacation and rehab until February and.

[Xena]

Then he should be living in San Diego until Christmas. Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's actually a bad sign if he plays like C60 games.

[F]

I agree. I honestly agree.

[G]

Definitely agree with that.

[F]

If he ends up being a guy who plays like, tries to make an all NBA team next year, that's the wrong direction.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[F]

I think they need to just work for the playoffs.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay. What do we do with Minnesota?

[Xena]

I haven't been that fringe with the Clippers. I had them, like, if I was ranking them in order, I had the Wolves 4 and the Clippers 5 again.

[G]

She put the, the Wolves in Dark Horse.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, you did?

[Xena]

Oh, wow. I mean I just. Look, this team now has, this is. They've got a track record with Anthony Edwards as their best player the last couple seasons. They mostly brought everybody back. I mean Nikhil Alexander Walker I think is going to be a big loss, but huge loss. But I, I actually think Taryn Shannon is going to play for them and I think he's going to be pretty good. I mean judging by the way he looked in the spot minutes in the playoffs, I, I like him a lot. I think he's got a, he came in with an NBA body which I'm, you know, as a big guard. I think that that's pretty good. Dillingham they probably are hopeful for, but the core of this team is still the same. I, I think they'll have some improvement. I mean if you look at the way they finished the year and by the time they got to the playoffs, you know, like they kind of got hot. But also they had improved just schematically. Like everybody kind of understood their role. Julius Randall was not, he didn't look the way he looked in the first half of the season, which was where do I fit? I mean he really did seem to understand his role by the end of the year and it was a huge difference. So I think that they're a better team than, than even what we saw this past season. I do think that they got to figure out how they're going to replace the Keel, but otherwise I don't think that they've taken like this massive drop off. I think this is still a pretty good team.

[F]

The only argument to take them out of this tier, and I agree with you, I think they should be in this tier, is that Gobert is one year older, Conley is one year older. And so you're asking a lot from. You know, you talked about that drop off. Like when is that drop off gonna have happen for Rudy Gobert? Probably has a little bit already.

[Xena]

Oh, it has for sure.

[F]

Right. So when is the kind of bottom gonna fall out from? You know what I mean?

[Andrew Schlecht]

At the same time though, Anthony Edwards is going to be better.

[Xena]

Right?

[F]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So like I actually think that keep, I would keep them here. They made the conference finals two years in a row.

[F]

I agree.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I don't. It never felt like, oh my gosh, they're going to be in the NBA finals because of who they were playing. But like I, I do think that they deserve this kind of respect and I do The Nikhil thing is, is tough. Terrence Shannon is a fine player, but there were times where like, he doesn't know his limits yet. And that was very clear in the conference.

[Xena]

Also, Nikhil, you know, there's something about these Canadian guys. I, I'm not sure what it is, but they will take a tough jumper.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's true.

[Xena]

And having like, I mean, look at like Andrew Nemhardt in, in the finals, just one of the first shots of. What was it? Game one, like mid range jumper.

[F]

Yeah, right.

[Xena]

There's something about having a guy like Nikhil who is willing to, you know, shoot that dribble, pull up and I, I like. And to be able to guard the way he does, I think that that's impossible to replace right now. But if, if they can get some sort of, you know, between Terence Shannon and Rob Dillingham, if they could get 75 of Nikhil, then they're gonna do okay. Because by the time you get to the playoffs, I think that they're just going to be. They're going to be a better team than they are today.

[F]

I also like Clark for them. I think he was a pretty good defender, point of attack guy. Just like that trio might be able to supplement the downfall of Mike Conley and the minutes where Nikhil might play the downfall.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's a fair way to phrase.

[Xena]

We're toppling the Mike Conley regime in Minnesota.

[F]

I agree with your flip flop, by the way. So you moved Minnesota behind the Clippers. I would probably put the Clippers, they.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Deserve the respect because they, I mean, they've made the conference finals two years in a row, something that the Clippers did not do. And so I think Edwards is going to get better. I think the experience against the Thunder like really like opened his eyes. Like, oh my gosh, like we've. I've got to be so much better than I was because he was not good against the Thunder. No, it was, it was not a good series for him. And so he's. To me, he's.

[G]

He wasn't great against the warriors either. He wasn't consistent.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No, he wasn't.

[G]

And that is why I have, I have them between Dark Horses and Fringe contents. One second. I have them between Fringe Contents and Dark Horses because I think there's season completely swings on how much Anthony Edwards can take a next step up. And particularly after watching the tape of Anthony Edwards be inconsistent and being able to finish in the paint, like, I don't know how much the west has picked up on how to guard him and how to contain him and how to shut him down. Julius Randle had to do a lot of work in those playoffs to continuously get them to the next level, to get them to the next game. And, you know, that's fine to be able to have both of them in your backyard to be able to handle that, but they're gonna need Anthony Edwards to start from the beginning of the season knowing his role and how he can show up. Dave, as you mentioned earlier in the season, last year we had Anthony Edwards telling reporters, I don't know what to do. I don't know about people, you know, as people are guarding me. I literally don't know what to do. Etc. Sure, they figured that out, but they also figured that out with a Nikhil Alexander Walker beside him. And so now it's a question of, you know, that role is going to change a little bit again. And I don't know that Jada McDaniels can. Is enough to, you know, fill that hole or Rob Dillingham or Terence Shannon. I actually think that the same concern y' all have about Taryn Shannon now knowing his limits, I think Rob Dillingham has that, too. We've saw. We saw him get in foul trouble, and he's small. Exactly. So I. I'm. I'm like, this is completely hinged upon Anthony Edwards taking that next step and taking that next step mentally out there. I think he definitely feels like a leader and he's. I love his transparency when they don't have things figured out. But other teams are probably picking up on what happened last year and say, all right, maybe we could shut this down even sooner. To not even get them in a position where they can fight for, you know, being in the conference finals again. I just think everyone's going to keep getting better at figuring out how to handle Anthony Edwards. This is the first time they're seeing Julius Randle in this role. Now they kind of know what he's going to be like alongside him, I don't know. And Rudy Gobert, we know what he's capable of doing. We. Nothing is quite literally. I have never seen a player that in his time has not found a way to get better throughout his time. That said, he's a great defender, but, like, still making moves inside that. No, like, the skill level, I'm just like. And I'm not even trying to crap on him or anything like that, but it's just like, I. I want to see Rudy Gobert develop something offensively, but I just feel like that has been stagnant the main thing that can get better is Anthony Edwards and maybe those young guys coming off the bench. We'll see.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

By the way, I was reminded when we were talking about Kawhi, I was reminded this guy tried to play in the Olympics. Okay. This guy.

[G]

Oh, my gosh.

[Xena]

So maybe we actually are a little too hopeful that they are going to manage him. Yeah, he wants to play. This is never. This is all. Also, I mean, he's got a little bit of a bad rep like Kawhi. From everything I've heard, like, Kawhi, like, really has to play all the time.

[F]

That whole conversation, it's such a. Yeah.

[Xena]

But, you know, I was reminded of that. So that is something that's. I think he's probably going to try to play 60 games. 65.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I found a future picture of Xena waiting for Rudy Gobert to get more skilled.

[Xena]

No.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay, Wait. What?

[Xena]

This is. This is what you're going to look like by the time Rudy Gobert can catch a basketball.

[Andrew Schlecht]

This is. Rudy Gobert develops hands.

[Xena]

Thing is, he's a Hall of Famer at the thing that he's amazing at. Right?

[Esper Henny]

Right.

[Xena]

He is so good.

[G]

Absolutely.

[Xena]

But, man, the limitations are there.

[F]

I.

[Xena]

Look, I. I think expecting a leap out of Anthony Edwards is probably. I would bet money on that. I think he's probably going to be better this year than he was last year.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

His comments during the Thunders. That Thunder series were incredible to me. Like when he was talking about those guys being five puppets on one string.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

This guy gets it. And. And it's gonna be, you know, like, we've seen this with other guys. They're gonna have to figure out a way to put some pieces around him. But, like, that team is already really good, and if he pops, they could. They could be in the finals. I mean, again, it's two times in a row they've been in the conference finals.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

I might be even too low on the wolves when I consider, oh, I.

[G]

Think I'm too low on the wolves, maybe.

[Xena]

Right. I'm a little too low on trackers. And Anthony Edwards, like, clearly being, like, improving, like, month by month still at this point in his career. I could still be low on them.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But yeah, and he has a. He has a growth mindset where, like, you. You think about the response from him and from Jaw, where Jaw was like, I had. We had the Thunder figured out. Like, we had him completely figured out. And then the response from Anthony Edwards is, wow, they have it figured out. And we have a long way to.

[Xena]

Go, how do we get there?

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, that's true.

[G]

That's true.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So I, I really, that to me is, and it's just these, like, these, these little things. It's, it's the mentality is so crucial for all NBA players to like, especially if you're at the top level, if you're thought of as, like, the guy, and if your mentality is like, jaw has been like this for years and years now. It's, we have it figured out. We're fine in the West.

[Xena]

We're not worried in the West.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's all these things where it's, it's, there's no self awareness. And then Anthony Edwards, who's outspoken, he says a lot of stuff, but we dig into a lot of it.

[G]

Like, he's insightful, he's thoughtful, he's transparent.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I think that he, I think that that is the reason why the Wolves should be as high as they are.

[Xena]

Can I do the Michael Jordan thing?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Okay. I grew up a Bulls fan, you know, because WGN was beamed into every household in America. So I got to watch a lot of Bulls games. I, I, I hated the Pistons so much because the Pistons were better than the Bulls. Right? Like, they were older, they were more season. They, I mean, they had a great team. And I watched this interview the other day, actually, of Jordan after losing that last series that they lost, that last conference finals that they lost to the pistons in, in 90. And he talked about how they are where we want to be, and we got to learn, we got to go, we got to learn the lessons from them on how to beat them.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

And that is really exactly the stuff that Anthony Edwards was saying in the playoffs. And this stuff, like, it stuck out to me that this guy is thinking about how do we match what the Thunder are doing? Like, how do we build what they've built? How do we play the way they've played? And he's never been a guy that's shy to guard anyone. I mean, this is why, this is one of the reasons why Anthony Edwards, like, we all kind of want him to be the face of the league, whatever that means, because he's willing to take the shot. He's willing to guard a guy. He's, you know, he will make the pass if that's the right play to make. And then there's all the other reasons that he kind of reminds us of Michael Jordan, but the, the fact that he wants to be better and you see it and, like, you can hear it from him. Like, this isn't just someone who's going through the motions. Like, he's actually processing this stuff in, in real time. I, I, I'm a believer in him. And so, like, I think that they're probably going to wind up in that contender range. Like, if we did this again come, you know, Christmas time, we probably are going to be moving them up into that top tier. I just believe in Anthony Edwards.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I think that's fair.

[Xena]

Oh, hey, now we just got compared to Luther Vandross. I love it in the late 90s. I'll take that. I'll take that, too.

[F]

Yeah, for sure.

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So I think it's, I think that the Thunder are the top tier contender. Do we, are we putting, I mean, to me, it's Denver. I still feel like I need to see more. I want to see, I want to see Houston before I put them in this contender tier. I know a lot of people have put them second in the west and like, the odds makers have them there.

[Xena]

It's like, hey, Andrew, your turn to say it. It's your turn to say it. Are you ready?

[Andrew Schlecht]

What am I saying?

[Xena]

They haven't done it before.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They have. No, they haven't. And their best score, the guys, the engine of the offense is 37 years old.

[Xena]

That's right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He's entering, he's not 37 yet. He will be 37 by the time the season starts. And it's like, I, I would worry about that a lot. It was the reason why for months we heard reports that the Rockets are not even interested in Kevin Durant. Like, they're not in on this. Like, they, they want Devin Booker, they want a younger star.

[G]

He doesn't fit their timeline.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Doesn't fit the timeline. Like, I, I, I think it's a great fit. I think it can work. I think they can be very good. But let's see how healthy they are in April and let's see how the offense comes together during the year.

[Xena]

Well, let's talk about the offense, because this is the thing, and I always have this concern, I mean, I had this concern with KD when he was in Phoenix. Where do the easy buckets come from? Kevin Durant, Is it Kevin Durant turnaround jumper? Is that the easy buckets for them? Because, remember, this was a problem for them. They don't really have an offensive philosophy. It's a lot of beat your guy.

[G]

And we just, the easy buckets come from the lobs. Like they're, they're lob throws running to pick and roll. I mean, we Saw Fred Van Vliet do it with Amin Thompson. We saw them get in the paint and get it up to Tara Eason. I'm not, I'm not defending them in terms of like they got a lot of easy buckets.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[G]

But to, to define the category of what their easy buckets were, it's basically they're super athletic guys getting behind the line of the defense and jumping up higher than the other person and for a lob, but that's. That requires someone that can get into the paint. That requires someone that can come off the pick and roll well, but I don't. And having a threat in which, you know, Al Shangoon grabs attention, that allows an Amin Thompson or Atari Eason to come into the dunker spot. But yeah, I think that's their only easy buckets right now. So see if their outside shooting is a thing.

[F]

My thing is this. The Rockets were second in the west last year with a pretty putrid offense regardless. Bad half court offense, bad fourth quarter offense, not a great clutch team. Fred Van Vliet grenades at the end of the games like that's how it was. Right. And they still won. What was it, 50 games? 50 plus games. Something along the lines of that. I, I can't remember exactly what it was.

[G]

Sure.

[F]

But they were second in the west because of the defense and I don't think the defense has dropped off. I would argue maybe even the defense has gotten better because you don't have to worry about Jalen Green.

[Xena]

Right.

[F]

And there's. There's no real weak spot to poke at there. So I look, they're still going to be a very, very good defensive team that can will themselves to games regardless. So regular season wise they'll be good. I agree with the Kevin Durant part wild card to make it to June and May at this point, but I, I would probably still put them at the same level as Denver. And this is my conversation with you guys. Like kind of the pitch I have for Denver is I would also put Denver in the fringe contenders category.

[Xena]

I.

[F]

The reason.

[Xena]

Wow.

[F]

So let me, let me say this. I love what they've done this off season. Added depth. I think Cam Johnson is a better basketball player than Michael Porter Jr. Currently provides a little bit something differently. The depth added is great. Jonas Valentunas, you know, having a backup big makes a lot of sense. Bruce Brown, ball handler, cutter, etc works really well in their system. Tim Hardaway Jr. A shooter. Maybe they have some other guys step up. I just think there's a reason that those guys Went for Vetman contracts like there's a reason that nobody else was out there maybe offering as much money. Maybe they wanted to go to Denver and play with Jokic. That's absolutely possible.

[Xena]

I think Bruce Brown. That's the real deal.

[F]

Sure.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[F]

But I still think there is a bit of prove it here for Denver with Jamal Murray's health, with him being available, I don't think he had.

[Xena]

Can he come into camp in shape. Right.

[F]

I don't think he had a great postseason. I think he had moments in the regular season where he was good and he had moments in the playoffs where he was good. But they need him to be at a different level if they want to actually contend and beat an OKC or whoever else that they end up facing in the playoffs.

[Xena]

That's.

[F]

That's my question. With them, it's like, yes, they got deeper. They can go a little bit deeper into their bench, but when it comes to, like, when push comes to shove is.

[Xena]

What's their closing lineup?

[F]

It's probably their starting lineup.

[Xena]

Right.

[F]

It's probably their son. A lot of. But like, is. Is Jonas Valentunas and Bruce Brown and Tim Hardaway Jr. Are those guys going to give you winning minutes in a playoff series? Maybe, Possibly. But I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. That's all I'm saying.

[Xena]

I mean. But the Nuggets are not built for that. The Nuggets are built for Jokic giving you winning moments. You know what I mean? And that's. Yeah, I think they've done a better job of making it so that he can do that. I agree. Tim Hardaway Jr. Is. This is like, if it's any other team, it's just a basic signing, but Tim Hardaway Jr. Getting to play off of Jokic.

[F]

They absolutely got better this year.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[F]

No question in my mind.

[Xena]

Push the Thunder, you know, And I think, like, if they beat the Thunder, they win the title. So to me, the improvement that they made, that's enough to. To. To put them in the contender tier. To me, I think it's them and it's OKC in the West. I don't know. Are we sure OKC is in. Should be at the top?

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's a great question.

[Xena]

Resting on their laurels, Andrew, have they improved this offseason? I don't know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Listen, they're. They're underdogs going into next year. Okay.

[Xena]

Nobody believes in the Thunder.

[F]

Hey, I. I want to say I believe that the Nuggets can be very. Like, they could win the championship next year, I would not be surprised. I just, I kind of wanted to be the wet blanket there and say, well, what if, what if it doesn't go the way that they want?

[Xena]

What if it doesn't work right? What if Bruce Brown actually isn't as good as he was? Yeah. Three years ago.

[F]

We've seen like the, We've seen a team load up on like depth and we're like, wow, this team got so much deeper during the off season. We can provide the hope that they've gotten better, but at the same time, if those guys don't pan out, then like, what's the next thing you know?

[Xena]

I mean, is Jonas Valentinus a pumpkin? Is a real question. Yep. Yep.

[G]

I feel like I treat Jokic like I treat Steph, but like now on another level because he's also much larger and he can do so many different things on so many different levels. But I can't count him out and, and I can't count him out because this, the squad that they've put around him plays so well with him and the people they've brought back in. I mean, and Bruce Brown at least play, have already played with him. Cam Johnson is smart enough to figure out how to play well with him. And you know, Dave, you made a great point about Tim Hardaway Jr. Being able to, to just be able to catch and shoot, be able to just flatten out to the corner and be a wide open target. I just, everything about this schematically makes me feel really happy about basketball being played. And so that's, and that's how I feel about OKC when I see them play. And so I'm like, that's why I put them in this contenders category. But I. It's interesting because we're looking at a team like the Clippers that's bringing back most of their team, or we're looking at a team like Minnesota who's bringing back most of their team. And I don't feel as confident with those teams as I do Denver bringing back their core group. Yeah, I think the skill level, the size, the. The two way capability is just elevated on the Denver Nuggets, and that's why I feel comfortable putting them there. And then they got better with the people they added. So I don't know.

[F]

All I'm saying is that we should have the same energy for Houston as we have for Denver and that they should probably be in the similar category. I agree. Jokic is better and he's the best player of these teams, arguably the best player in the world. But I just think talent wise, depth wise, defense wise, winning in the regular season wise, Houston has just as good of a case as Denver does. That's one thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, that's real say for Denver, like, they get a training camp with David Adelman, you know, like, they get to actually have some, like, continuity, leadership, and.

[Xena]

Maybe only David Adelman. By the way, they're apparently a little tight on money for hiring their coaching staff.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes, they are. Yes, it is a, it's a struggle. But they also don't have like, the front office and the coaching staff fighting all year over what's happening within the, within the roster and who's being played and who isn't playing. I think that they will have more. I think they will just have a better year, period, because they don't have the turmoil that's happening in the front office because that stuff always trickles down in some form or fashion. And so I do think that they're, they're going to be better this next year, in my opinion.

[F]

Just apparently they just hired Jared.

[Xena]

Jared dudley and maybe J.J. berea.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, yeah.

[G]

Shout out to those two, leaving the league, becoming solid coaches across the NBA. I think this goes back to the, like, question of do you have a guy or do you have guys? And, you know, you looked at the OKC versus Indiana, it was like a guy in Shay Gills Alexander not only being able to score but also distribute. And he was just the guy in that series with Indiana trying to get past OKC with guys, and it wasn't enough. And I'm looking at Denver and I'm like, they've got a guy. Absolutely, they have a guy. And I'm like, looking at Houston and they have a guy as well, but that one guy hasn't been with that team before. And that's where I get a little concerned about how does that fit. And I'm wondering, s. Would you categorize Houston as being a team that has a guy or has guys?

[F]

I probably would say they're in the category of having both because I like, I, I believe in Kevin Durant's top end talent to get to that level again. He's old, so can. And, and he's had some injuries here where it's like, can he get to that point? Can he, can he make it to May and June? Which I think is a valid question. Absolutely. How is. I think the Rockets have both, though. Like, they can go nine deep and they can win games that KD doesn't play. So that's the version of this team that ends up winning like 50 plus games, has one of the best defenses. And now you're looking at a team that can re. Maybe, you know, sort of the Clippers formula that we talked about, where it's like, hey, Kawhi might have to play 50 games or whatever, but they'll still be very good. Houston can probably do the same thing with KD.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[F]

In the sense that, like, he can play 50, 60 games and they'll still be good for most of the season because of that. So.

[Xena]

And that's without us. Like, we're not even factoring in if a man takes some sort of a leap.

[G]

Yeah.

[Xena]

You know what I mean? Like, there's.

[G]

They've got a lot of the guys. I think they're the guys team more so than a guy. And now it's like a matter of. Okay, if I'm categorizing Houston as a. They got guys. Do those guys. How do they measure up against a Jokic and his guys? And I. That's where I can't quite give Houston the edge yet because I haven't seen it yet.

[F]

Right. Andrew, let me ask you a question. Kind of seeing the improvements that Denver and OKC have made or while Denver and Houston have made, and obviously it's been. It's not like OKC has went out and made any crazy upgrades. They resigned. AJ Mitchell resigned sga. Do you feel like they need to not make a tweak, but do you feel like they will add anything here in the next coming months or even before the trade deadline to sharpen up some of the offensive stuff?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Probably not fair.

[F]

Okay. Yeah, I figured. But I just. It was a question like, does that. Does. Is there a different level of urgency because these other teams, these contenders improved?

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, I think that the mindset is that, like, Jdub and Chet are incredibly young. You know, Dub had a bum wrist during the entire playoffs, which is crazy.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, I think that they are counting on internal development to be the catalyst for improvement for them and not somebody coming in. And so you think about Case and Wallace is entering year three, and like, there's just. There's a lot of improvement to be had. Like, they are adding Nikola Topic to the team. We'll see what he can do. He'll be playing in summer league.

[F]

Sorber.

[Xena]

NBA champion.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's right. NBA champion. Nikola Topic. Thomas Sorber. Will, the dude is so young. I talked to him the other day and he though the braces.

[F]

Oh, God. Braces.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Young face. I was just like, oh, My gosh, I am so old. When I was talking to him.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, I. As far as, like, adding to it, like, they are wanting to sustain what they have while getting better internally. And I think, like, that's. That's like, the real move for them because they are going to have to pay every. They're going to have to pay these guys, and they're going to have to figure out how to make it all work. And a lot of it works with internal development, draft picks, scouting, you know, so they'll all get better. There's. There's probably only a few guys on the team that you can say probably will be who they are. And that's like, probably Caruso, Kenneth Williams, Hardenstein.

[F]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Arnstein's still, like, 27.

[G]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, like, he. He was. He got better this year, too. And, you know, like, being with. Being with the Thunder for another year and, like, figuring out how to expand his game and, like, how to better play with Chat.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, like, these are all guys. Like, he's in his prime. I think that, you know, Chet and J Dub are still years away from their primes. I get. We're just. I think it would be hasty to one try to, like, add a big piece to this team just because you want to allow room for others to grow within it. I think Case and Wallace is a guy that can really grow into, like, a much bigger role this year, and he was already in a big role for them, but he's a guy that I think can be better. I think Chet. Hopefully Chet can be healthy. If he's healthy. Like, that's a guy that needs space to grow into a bigger role. So there's just.

[F]

That's the big one.

[Xena]

Yeah, that's the big one.

[F]

Like, it's. It's chat. Last year, it was J Dub making the All Star leap. And like, this year it's, Can Chat stay healthy? Can he vie for a defense Player of the Year award? Can you make All Star? Like, that's the. That's the goal for okc, I think.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, it's. It's hard. Like, the. I mean, the teams that have won the championship the last several years have not made it out of the second round. So, like, it's. It is hard to compete year after year after year. So the Thunder are going to have to, like, find their way out of, like, some of the growing pains that are going to happen for them. Like, that is going to happen to them, and it's like, mentality wise, can they continue to push you just like I've been around the organization a lot, around a lot of people there. Like it's, it's, it's very motivating just as a person just to be around these people, you know. And so like they have the, all the right ingredients there. And now it's just about like, hey, can we put together another run? You know, what does that look like?

[Xena]

And outrun the scouting report.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, for sure.

[Xena]

Everybody has more film on the Thunder than any other team, definitely. So now you got to outrun the scouting report.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Teams are going to defend them better. They're going to, they're going. They will not be the same team. Even though they have the same people on the team. They won't be the same team next year. Like they will be a different team in ways just because these guys are so young and they're still growing and they're learning and evolving like that. That that will happen with them.

[Xena]

There's low hanging fruit they'll be intentional about.

[G]

Yeah, no, I think they'll be intentional with their evolution too. Like I think. Yeah, it's clear that Jada wants to work on some things this offseason. Even, you know, Shay definitely chat offensively and developing more consistently his outside shot. Like every single one of these guys is putting in work this summer to show up differently on top of just getting stronger, faster, better. All the above.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yep.

[G]

Sorry Dave, what were you saying?

[Xena]

Oh, no, no. I was just saying no, there's low hanging fruit for their offense half court. Like they just. Their offensive philosophy in the half court could improve significantly and it will make their lives easy.

[F]

Well, that was my thing. It's like I like the three point volume, three point shooting. Getting that to a point where it's sustainable. I think chat plays a big part in that. To be honest with you. Him becoming a more comfortable three point shooter is a big part of. Of what they need to take step wise offensively. But yeah, I guess you're right. Just roll with it developmentally and see what happens. I would be very surprised if they end up making.

[Xena]

They won a title. I think they're doing great there.

[G]

Is that doing good.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You'll be doing good too if you subscribe to our YouTube channel and hit the like button. We would appreciate that. We appreciate everybody that tuned in live with us here for the morning shoot around. This is super fun. It's great to kind of hang out with our listeners and get along more long form show in. So we appreciate you guys tuning in. Leave us a comment on Spotify. You can do that. If you didn't know, maybe you're listening on Spotify right now. Maybe you didn't have any idea. Leave us a nice comment on Spotify. Leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts. We'll continue to churn out podcasts. We will be at Summer League by the way, and so we'll be say.

[Xena]

Hi if you're going to be there.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, we'll be doing live shows on Friday afternoon, Saturday afternoon. The first two days. I think it's first. I think there's, there's games Thursday, Friday night.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. So Friday, Saturday we'll be doing shows live on the concourse. Would love to talk to you guys and to meet some listeners there. Really appreciate you guys and we will talk to you guys again tomorrow.

[G]

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