Thunder keep rolling + Bulls big comeback

Summary

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The Athletic NBA Daily – Thunder Keep Rolling + Bulls Big Comeback

Date: November 5, 2025
Hosts: Dave DuFour, Esfandiar Baraheni ("S"), Joel Lorenzi

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Overview

This episode dives into the Oklahoma City Thunder's undefeated start, the Orlando Magic's offensive woes after the Desmond Bane acquisition, and the Chicago Bulls' dramatic comeback victory against the 76ers. With insights from beat writers and sharp, entertaining banter, the hosts break down what’s making these teams tick (or struggle), spotlighting key players and developments around the league.

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Thunder Remain Undefeated: Analyzing OKC’s 8-0 Start

[Start: 01:46]

• Context & Highlights:

  • The Thunder move to 8-0, a better mark than last year’s 7-1 start (despite missing second-best player Jalen Williams).
  • The Thunder’s formula and depth highlighted: “They have options everywhere… tonight it was Isaiah Joe, another night it’ll be Jaylen Williams...” – Dave DuFour [02:46]
  • The third quarter is their signature surge, pulling away from opponents, reminiscent of historical “third quarter teams” like the 2016-17 Warriors.
  • The hosts agree: “It’s fitting that the defending champions are starting out as the last undefeated team in the league.” – S [05:40]
  • Playful speculation about how long the streak could last, eyeing the December schedule as potential pitfall.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “They play a fun brand of basketball… if you’re an old school basketball watcher, there’s something for you. If you’re into the newer style of play, there’s something for you there.” – S [03:53]
  • “The formula is there, the identity is there… it just works for this Thunder team.” – Dave DuFour [04:27]
  • “This is why I think they can win 70 games, and I’m sticking by it, right?” – S [05:40]

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Magic Misfire: Bane Fit Raises Questions

[06:00]

• Poor Start for Orlando:

  • The Magic fall to 3-5 after getting blown out by the shorthanded Atlanta Hawks (127-112).
  • Desmond Bane’s acquisition is under a microscope; his fit beside Paolo Banchero and Franz Wagner has been rocky.
  • Bane’s numbers: down to 29% FG when he’s a 40% career shooter; ejected for a frustration foul in the most recent game.

• The Offensive Identity Crisis:

  • Orlando lacks “bread and butter” actions; the offense is stagnant and the defense has regressed.
  • “They have no real identity offensively in terms of what they want to achieve on a night to night basis. They just don’t know. They don’t have automatics.” – Dave DuFour [08:03]
  • Bane isn’t a natural fit: “Desmond Bane was really good with Ja Morant… but Paolo and Franz are not drive and kick type players… it’s just not their style.” – S [09:00]
  • Statistical lowlight: “The Magic have played eight games...Paolo and Franz have eight combined assists to Desmond Bane. One assist per game—it's absurd.” – Dave DuFour [07:50]

• Pressure on Coaching:

  • Coach Jamahl Mosley now seen as potentially being on the “hot seat” if the offense doesn’t find answers soon [10:15].
  • “You have to prove you’re at least in contender status. They’ve not shown that at all.” – Dave DuFour [11:14]

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Raptors Defense Stymies Bucks

[11:32]

• Summary:

  • Raptors rout the Bucks, benefiting from Giannis Antetokounmpo’s lowest scoring performance (22 points) and capitalizing on the Bucks’ fatigue.
  • Defensive resurgence led by Scottie Barnes: “He has 12 stocks [steals+blocks] over the last two games… just otherworldly on the defensive end.” – Dave DuFour [11:57]
  • Sandro Mamukelashvili (“Mamu”): emerging as a key stretch-5; he and Barnes are +52 in their minutes together [13:13].

• Offensive Surprises:

  • Raptors have climbed to a “top 15 offense,” which no one predicted pre-season.

• Quote:

  • “Scottie [Barnes] plays whack-a-mole with the defensive problems for the Raptors… when he’s at his best, the team is at its best.” – Dave DuFour [12:49]

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Chicago Bulls’ Big Comeback: Team of the Week?

[18:52]

The Bulls Erase a 24-Point Deficit Against the Sixers; Vucevic Seals It

[Segment Start: 18:52]

• Game Recap:
  • Bulls come back from 24 down, with Nikola Vucevic hitting the game winner.
  • Bulls now 6-1 on the season—a surprise story.

Josh Giddey’s Transformation

• Monstrous stat lines: Giddey posts 29 points, 15 rebounds, 12 assists for back-to-back triple doubles.

  • “Back-to-back triple doubles for him. First time since what, Jordan in ‘89. Which is incredible.” – Dave DuFour [20:19]
  • “Anytime you’re saying first time since Michael Jordan…we don’t get to say that pretty much.” – S [20:34]

• Giddey’s fit in Chicago:

  • In OKC, forced into an off-ball role, his skills were marginalized. In Chicago, Giddey flourishes running the offense for a loaded, transition-focused roster.
  • “They want to mimic transition even in the half court… that’s his style. It’s worked wonders for Giddey.” – Joel Lorenzi [21:04]
  • “He’s been such a more intentional playmaker in my [opinion]…” – Joel Lorenzi [22:05]

• Shooting Improvement:

  • “Pull up three above the break has been big for him… If nothing else, he’s getting the defense to come and bite on that now.” – S [23:21]

Vucevic’s Renaissance

• “He’s been amazing… Joel Embiid could not guard Nikola Vucevic in this game.” – S [24:23]
• Vucevic’s touch and high scoring return; preseason fears about his decline have faded.

Are the Bulls the Pacers 2.0?

• Bulls have modeled themselves in the image of last year’s Indiana Pacers: focus on transition, quality threes, team-oriented play.
  • “I wouldn’t even settle on the fact that there’s merit to that [comparison]. I think this is the prophecy… it’s a replica of the Pacers.” – Joel Lorenzi [26:44]
  • The Bulls’ system values “quality of threes” over quantity—a trait borrowed from the Spurs as well [29:20].

Importance of Depth & Culture

• Bulls play hard every night and never intentionally lose—an underrated trait in regular season wins.
  • “I’ve never watched a Bulls game and not seen them playing hard. And there’s value to that.” – S [29:20]

Rest-of-Season Outlook

• Joel Lorenzi now projects the Bulls to beat preseason win projections:

  • “Would it be crazy to say they win 43 or 44? I don’t think that’s crazy.” – Joel Lorenzi [31:37]

• Notable Moments:

  • “Don’t count them out… even when they were down 24, I told S… it’s never a dull moment in a Bulls game.” – Dave DuFour [32:19]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Time | Speaker | Quote | |---------|---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:46 | Dave DuFour | "They have options everywhere… tonight it was Isaiah Joe, another night it’ll be Jaylen Williams..." | | 03:53 | S | "If you’re an old school basketball watcher, there’s something for you. If you’re into the newer style of play, there’s something for you there." | | 05:40 | S | "This is why I think they can win 70 games, and I’m sticking by it, right?" | | 07:50 | Dave DuFour | "Paolo and Franz have eight assists combined to Desmond Bane. One assist per game to Desmond Bane. It's absurd." | | 08:03 | Dave DuFour | "They have no real identity offensively in terms of what they want to achieve on a night to night basis. They just don't know. They don't have automatics." | | 11:57 | Dave DuFour | "Scotty Barnes is playing all defense level basketball. He has 12 stocks over the last two games..." | | 12:49 | Dave DuFour | "He [Barnes] plays whack a mole with the defensive problems for the Toronto Raptors. He's constantly cleaning up all of the issues that they have." | | 20:19 | Dave DuFour | "Back-to-back triple doubles for him. First time since what, Jordan in 89. Which is incredible." | | 21:04 | Joel Lorenzi | "When you have a guy that's an offense unto himself in such an offensive engine, you never want to take the ball out of his hands. Right. And Josh Giddy needs the ball. Simple, simple math there." | | 22:05 | Joel Lorenzi | "He's been such a more intentional playmaker in my… Some of the personnel they've had out these past few games." | | 23:21 | S | "The pull up three above the break has been big for him early in the season... If nothing else, he's getting the defense to come and bite on that now." | | 24:23 | S | "Joel Embiid could not guard Nikola Vučevic in this game." | | 26:44 | Joel Lorenzi | "I think this is the prophecy... it's a replica of the Pacers." | | 29:20 | S | "I've never watched a Bulls game and not seen them playing hard. And there's value to that." | | 31:37 | Joel Lorenzi | "Would it be crazy to say they win 43 or 44? I don't think that's crazy." | | 32:19 | Dave DuFour | "Don’t count them out… even when they were down 24, I told S… it’s never a dull moment in a Bulls game." |

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• 01:46 – Thunder’s undefeated streak, versatility, comparisons with past teams
• 06:00 – Magic’s offensive struggles, Desmond Bane fit, Paolo and Franz’s lack of playmaking for Bane
• 11:32 – Raptors defensive improvement & Scotty Barnes’s All-Defense level play
• 18:52 – Bulls’ comeback vs. Sixers, Giddey’s rise, Vucevic’s impact, Bulls as “the new Pacers”

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Takeaways

• Thunder: Deep, versatile, and dominant even without key personnel. Third quarter “kill shot” is their calling card.
• Magic: Roster doesn’t fit naturally, Desmond Bane struggling, and lack of offensive structure is hurting identity on both ends.
• Raptors: Scottie Barnes anchoring a resurgent defense; the offense is quietly efficient thanks to a more modern approach.
• Bulls: Giddey finally unleashed, Vucevic revitalized, and Billy Donovan gets his due for maximizing effort and buy-in. The team is looking like the Pacers’ system with its own Chicago spin and could surpass modest preseason projections.

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Conclusion:
The episode offers in-depth analysis, team identity breakdowns, and trendspotting on which squads are over/underachieving. The Thunder look unstoppable, the Magic face existential offensive problems, the Raptors are sneaky-resurgent, and the Bulls are winning with energy, system buy-in, and a newly-starred Giddey.

Transcript

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[Esperaheny]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily. I'm Dave DeFore here with Esperaheny. Coming up, the Thunder move to Aidan O. We're going to talk about it a little bit. The Magic having a rough start to the year and Joel Lorenzi is here to talk about The Bulls improbable 6 and 1 start to the season. Good morning everybody. Good morning.

[Dave DeFore]

S Good morning. Good morning to everybody who thought the Thunder were going to take care of the Clippers.

[Esperaheny]

Hey, hey, hey hey. Listen, listen. I did think the Clippers might win but I did not realize the second night of a back to back and that Bradley Beal and Kawhi Leonard going to take the night off. Hey, it wound up being blow a blowout night in America, the NBA and and elsewhere if you're paying attention. But let's start with the Thunder. They moved to eight 0s to put that in perspective, they started last year seven and one and they said that they feel like they're better this year. I don't know if I agree with that but they've started out better.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, they're missing their second best player in Jalen Williams. So maybe this is more impressive than their seven one last, last year start. I mean look, they, they were missing Isaiah Hartenstein last are going to add Jalen Williams over the next month or so. Who knows when it happens but honestly it doesn't seem to matter that much in the regular season for them. I mean there's playoff implications, but this team just keeps rolling, man. They have options everywhere. Tonight it was Isaiah Joe. Another night it'll be Jaylen. The other Jalen Williams. Sometimes It'll be it's A.J.

[Esperaheny]

Mitchell. These other nights, right, Like, I mean they, like you said, they always have a guy. You know, we were kind of talking about this in our group chat. They are a pretty fun defending champion for that reason.

[Dave DeFore]

Yes.

[Esperaheny]

Number one, they have a varied attack. Like I don't know what they're going to do every single possession. Like they actually go out there and play basketball. It's, it's a little bit different than the Celtics where, you know, I know what the Celtics goal is every night it's, we're going to get up 55 63s and try to, you know, blow you out.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, there's a formula, but it doesn't look the same every single time, you know.

[Esperaheny]

Well, it looks like hoops too because like Shay Gilander is a guy who scores in varied ways. I mean the mid range game for him, the way he gets to the basket, they just have an interesting style to them. Like I feel like they're a team that, that really caters to. If you're an old school basketball watcher, there's something for you. If you're into sort of the newer style of play, you know, there's something for you there. They're a lot of fun to watch. I mean this is another one of those games where, you know, you turn it on and you feel like, okay, well they may not have it tonight. And then third quarter hits and all of a sudden it's over.

[Dave DeFore]

And you know, third quarter is when the good teams turn it on. Like that's when I think of the 2016, 2017 warriors teams where in the third quarter they said we don't want to play this basketball game anymore and they say goodbye. Right? That's the level they're at and the comfortability they've shown so far this season, even despite missing their second best player. Goes to show you that the regular season has become pretty trivial for the Thunder. It's just, which is crazy say, but like they just, the formula is there, the identity is there. Like you said, they play a fun brand of basketball. It just works for this Thunder team.

[Esperaheny]

I, I made the joke the other night. If you go and look at their schedule, when are they going to lose? S. They play Portland next, then Sacramento, then Memphis. Golden State is tough. The Lakers are going to be tough. Then they got Charlotte, then they got the Pelicans, and they got the Kings. I mean, I don't know, we're looking at almost Christmas. We're looking at like, okay, San Antonio, if they can get past the Lakers and, and Golden State State next week. I mean, this, this team can start out like, like Cleveland last year.

[Dave DeFore]

If they can get past Golden State and la, I'm going to lock in one of those spurs games in December is when they'll first lose. Yeah, that's, that's my hot take there.

[Esperaheny]

I mean, it's pretty incredible. It's a, it's a great start to the year. I mean, it's. I don't know, it's fun. It's fitting that the defending champions are starting out as the last undefeated team in the league. I mean, this is how it's supposed to go. This is why I think that they can win 70 games and I'm sticking by it, right? Like, they're on pace.

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[Esperaheny]

They're on a pace to win 82 games.

[Dave DeFore]

82 games.

[Joel Lorenzi]

I don't know if, you know, you've.

[Esperaheny]

Done the math on that. Ask. Look, I, I'm. I'm going to, like, pat myself on the back a little bit. I was lower on the Orlando Magic coming into this year than just about everybody else, and I was worried about the fit. Right. They've got issues as far as their identity on offense, and adding Desmond Bane theoretically could solve some of those issues. Right. He's a shooter. He's also a playmaker. He can run pick and roll. He fits into their defensive scheme. But so far it has not been good. The Atlanta Hawks, who were, I think a lot of people put them in the exact same tier as Orlando, like the next tier, maybe, with the changes that they made.

[Dave DeFore]

The Atlanta Hawks tonight, by the way, right?

[Esperaheny]

No Trey Young, and we'll get to that in a second. The Hawks, I mean, they beat him handily last night. 127, 112. It wasn't really particularly close. And the Magic are the story here because they have just really struggled out of the gate. They're now three and five. Desmond Bain got ejected from this game for. There was a flagrant. He got a flagrant in a Tech all in one for. For really like a vicious foul.

[Dave DeFore]

It looked like a frustration thing too. It looked like he was just tired of. Of the game that he was having. He struggled honestly as like at a.

[Esperaheny]

Certain point he probably should get of the season he's having. Right? It's not been good.

[Dave DeFore]

No, it hasn't been. Look, he is a career 40% shooter. He started out the season shooting 29%. One of the craziest stats that we might have on this show all year. The Magic have played eight games. Okay, how many assists do you think Paulo and Franz have to Desmond Bane? Give me a guess. Just throw it out there. Throw a number out.

[Esperaheny]

Three? No.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay, three is pretty crazy.

[Esperaheny]

I'm going low.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, that is pretty low. They have eight assists combined to Desmond Bain. One assist per game to Desmond Bain. It's absurd. And yeah, part of that is him missing his threes, right?

[Esperaheny]

Sure.

[Dave DeFore]

Part of that is the inefficiency, the slow start offensively. But it's also been a slow start for Paulo Bankero who is over reliant on that mid range jump shot and I think just hasn't got a lot of lift as a driver and finisher so far this season. The guy who's being underutilized right now in the Magic offense is Franz Wagner. And I think they have no real identity offensively in terms of what they want to achieve on a night to night basis. They just don't know. They don't have automatics. You know, NBA teams have things that they can go to. We just talked about the Thunder and how things seem seamless, bread and butter actions.

[Joel Lorenzi]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Magic don't have that at all. And it's. It's actually made them lose their defensive identity too. I mean they gave up 127 points to the Hawks tonight. They've been consistently poor defensively and the offense isn't enough to uplift them to winning any type of games either. It's disappointing.

[Esperaheny]

I actually think here's my thing and maybe I didn't get into this enough or didn't have time before the season. But the truth is the Desmond Bain fit is sketchy. It is not a perfect fit. Desmond Bain was really good with John Morant, who is an elite or at least at his peak and an elite drive and kick guy. So if you could be a secondary playmaker off of him, you look amazing. And that's where Desmond Bain really was great. He was an aggressive shooter. He gets shots up. He's a good shooter. He is a good pick and roll ball hand or he's not elite. He's a, he's a fine secondary drive guy, but he, he is not a primary attack guy, but he's not going to be able to go get shots for himself. And that's what exactly. Paolo and Franz are not driving kick type of players. Right. Like, this is just not their style of play. So when you look at Bain's fit for the Magic, yeah, he's a good player and you can see a way if he can adapt and just be more of a spot up guy, which is really what they need. Sure, he makes sense, but it's not working out so far.

[Dave DeFore]

We, we talked about this in the preseason, but you know, in terms of like hot seats and you talked, you joked about Willie Green. Congratulations. The Pelicans have won a basketball game. We'll see when they win their next one.

[Esperaheny]

No Zion for about a week.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, no Zion for about a week. So we'll see. Willie Green's seat is very, very hot. You said scolding. Yeah, I would say Jamal Mosley is getting to that point now too, where you got to find something, you got to find a solution to your problems. And maybe it's not that imminent. You know, it might not happen for a couple months, but at least the, the signs are there of a team that is not responding to the type of coaching that is happening right now. So.

[Esperaheny]

Yeah, I mean, need an offense though. Like this is actually. And it's been an issue for a while and, and I, I like we say that about a few teams here and there, but there has to be more to your offense than go get us a bucket. It just, they don't get anything easy. And this isn't a team that's scoring very well in transition. Right. Like, they don't push the pace. They're not a particularly fast team. They're don't, they don't shoot the lights out. I mean, it's just you got to find a way to either come up with a system or, or I don't know, or the players are gonna have to change.

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[Dave DeFore]

And by the way, people are being harsh on the Magic because like they made their win now move and they, they spent the capital to go out and get Desmond Bain like this. It comes with the expectations. You're in the territory now of like, you have to prove you were in the contender status at the very least. They've not shown that at all.

[Joel Lorenzi]

Yeah.

[Esperaheny]

All right. As you, you went to Raptors, Bucks. Yes, this was a blowout, but not in the way that somebody might expect. Look, this was probably Giannis. I mean it was Giannis's lowest scoring night of the season that he was held to 22 points. What did the Raptors do right against the Bucks who, who've just been really, really good to start the year?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, look, the, the Bucks were on the second night of a back to back and when I asked Doc Rivers he said like they were just physically outmatched in this game. And I think it, it goes to show you the defensive improvements that the Raptors have made so far this season. They start this year defensively. They had two games where they gave up over 130 points over the last few games. That has kind of course corrected. Big reason for that is Scotty Barnes is playing all defense level basketball. He has 12 stocks over the last two games which is steals plus box. He is top 10 in steals, blocks and deflections so far this season. He's just otherworldly on the defensive end and they use him as the help side rim protector. They use him as a shot blocker. They use him as a guy who genuinely has you ever play whack a mole, Dave?

[Esperaheny]

I mean he plays of course, right?

[Dave DeFore]

He plays whack a mole. With the defensive problems for the Toronto Raptors. He's constantly cleaning up all of the issues that they have. And so when he's at his best defensively, the team is at his best and maybe they're trending in the right direction now. They finally got to.500 very early in the season. So things are looking good for the Raptors and it's because of Scotty also.

[Esperaheny]

Got to give a shout out.

[Dave DeFore]

We could talk about it.

[Joel Lorenzi]

We could talk about it.

[Esperaheny]

Sandro Mamu, killer Chevali. Yes, Mamu having a career year to start, to start the season, had 15 points off the bench. Man, he just fits. And him and Scotty Barnes have been really good so far to start the year. Yeah, they have.

[Dave DeFore]

They are dominating their minutes like +52 in their minutes together which is absurd for the I mean data is really noisy right now, but they've just been dominant and Scotty paired with a guy who can shoot that shot at his position like a stretch five option has really opened the Raptors offense. Surprisingly, Dave, the Raptors have a top 15 offense and I wouldn't have said that coming into the year. I think it's just because of the options that they have offensively. Like RJ's playing well. BI is doing his thing. Scotty is obviously doing his thing. But then Mamu is now stepping in and enhancing all these guys too, which is surprise.

[Esperaheny]

Yeah, yeah, 4 and 4s. Yeah, 4 and 4 on the way to 45. Or do we back it off 48?

[Dave DeFore]

I took it down to 44, but I think I'm ready to jump back to 45.

[Esperaheny]

All right, that one blowout against the Bucks is all we needed. Guys. Stick around.

[Joel Lorenzi]

After the break.

[Esperaheny]

We have Joel Lorenzi here to talk about the Bulls. Josh Giddey, six triple doubles away from second place all time. Where for the Bulls in triple doubles he would pass Scotty Pippen. This is insane. Insane.

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[Esperaheny]

The Chicago Bulls might be the best story in the NBA. They get a big comeback win coming back from 24 points down. Game winner by Nicola Vuchevic to beat the Sixers to move to 6 and 1. Our man Joel Lorenzi covers the Bulls for us for the Athletic. Joel, welcome to the show. Welcome to the Athletic. First appearance of the season. First appearance of your career outside of the the team preview before the season. Hope you're doing well. Heck of a game.

[Joel Lorenzi]

Hell of a game, man. I'm gonna make it more explicit for you. Adept. That was one of the finishes I've been able to see with my own young eyes. And it was very. That entire second half was very emblematic of what the Bulls are so far through seven games. The volatility, the possibility of kind of Always being in games and always being able to flip that switch of, hey, well, we like to conjure pace. Let's just do it right now. And they kind of weaseled around this great maxi game and great early minutes from Joel Embiid and they found themselves again. And I think they gave fans the exact reasons why people have been kind of pleasantly surprised by them. I mean, the Kevin Herder minutes, Giddy doing great things. Giddy making an insane pass to Vuch in the corner and Vouch showing, hey, I ain't that old.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, it was, it was awesome, man. And look, you talked about Josh Giddy, but 29 points, 15 rebounds, 12 assists, back to back triple doubles for him. First time since what, Jordan in 89. Which is incredible.

[Esperaheny]

Anytime you're saying first time since Michael Jordan, we don't get to say that.

[Dave DeFore]

Pretty much.

[Esperaheny]

Usually it's first time since Wilt, when, when somebody scores a bunch of points, but first time since Michael Jordan for a Bulls player. Yeah, I mean, you know, we don't have a lot of bright spots in Chicago. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

But Joel, look, you've. You've had a chance to cover Giddy for what, all of his career at this point between Oklahoma and Chicago. How has it been to see his evolution as a player to be the type of like jumbo guard creator who's doing everything for you offensively now?

[Joel Lorenzi]

Yeah, no, so I got. I overlapped with Giddy his last year okc and that was like everybody, I think most people remember how that sort of ended. It was in that the fit wasn't there. And it was mostly because obviously, and Josh has admitted it this himself as, as recently as this year, like Shay has the possibility to be the best player in the world and certainly when you're playing, certainly feels like he's the best player in the world, I imagine. And so when you have a guy that's an offense unto himself in such an offensive engine, you never want to take the ball out of his hands. Right. And Josh Giddy needs the ball. Simple, simple math there. Right. And so that whole year they tried to make him a screener and play him in a dunker spot and do all these quirky things that just weren't him for the betterment of the team. And it's sort of quick direction they were taking. Obviously a year later they add a couple pieces, swap him out, they win a championship. So just with how rapidly they were growing, they tried to kind of force Josh into this role. And granted, they wanted to keep him after the fact, they tried to Force him into this role to just never felt like him because he wasn't. Not only was the personnel and kind of the way they did things there, it wasn't going to work with the way they were trying to make him play, but also not equipped with the off ball skills to make that work. Right now they got all these fringe starters who are, from what I can tell, so bought in. They got this game where they pound transition. That's his style. And they, even in the half court they want to mimic transition. They want to do all these, this cutting and these, these short handoffs and all these quick actions to sort of replicate transition and make teams work hard. And it's worked wonders for Gideon. Giddey is better as a cutter now. He is moving off ball and that's where Vuch comes in. Right. They're orbiting around Vooch. It's been great for him and Giddey. I, I think personally like he's always obviously been known as a passer and this sort of talented passer. I think we know the difference between passer and playmaker. Right? Playmaker. He's been such a more intentional playmaker in my. Some of the personnel they've had out these past few games.

[Esperaheny]

Well also he's been more aggressive looking for his shot. The pull up three, the like, the pull up three above the break has been big for him early in the season. He hit another couple threes tonight. I don't know if the, if the shot improvement is real or not. It's impossible to tell until like you're basically a season and a half into a shot improvement. But it looks pretty good so far. If nothing else, he's getting the defense to come and bite on that now. And his driving kick game is benefiting from it. We saw that on that game winner with, with the hammer pass to, to Vuch in the corner. And I gotta say, like one of the guys we kind of like overlooked, I think in this Bulls run because we have focused so much on Giddy is Nicole of Vujovic. He's had a hell of a start to the season if we're gonna get a little bit more with it. Joel, he's been amazing. Between scoring the basketball, just shooting and then, I mean he. Look, Joel Embiid's diminished, but Joel Embiid could not guard Nicole Vuchevich. I mean it just like his face up game.

[Dave DeFore]

Joel Embiid couldn't score on Nicole Vuchevich either. In the fourth quarter.

[Esperaheny]

It was. Yeah. V is having a great start to the year too.

[Joel Lorenzi]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's interesting because, I mean, for whatever preseason is worth, you can kind of decide, and I think players decide what they want preseason to be for. For Vuch, it was, hey, I, I had this long summer plan for the Montenegrin national team. Like, I need to work myself back. They've kind of been vocal about, hey, Vuch is such a veteran. He knows what he needs before a season to get himself back. And the preseason, it looked disgusting, right? Like he was moving crazy, looked super slow, looked age. I personally even questioned. I'll take the L for this. I question if he needed to be in sort of a Brook Lopez role, if they were going to get sort of value for him, let him be a bench center. At the time, Zach Collins looked like arguably their best big for the system. He obviously went down with an injury. Vouch has completely shut me up. Like he's, he's been high scoring. The touch has been there. Early on in their first few games, their go to action when Tre Jones was playing phenomenal, their go to action was Tre Jones Voosh pick and roll. And Vuch's touch is still there. If he has nothing else, he has that sweet martinegra touch, right? And so this is. This dude is, is not looking like his age and everything. The package is not computing. And you mentioned the defense. Like, I think people know that's not his reputation. And part of the question about how this Bulls team will sustain itself and, and probably why a big reason why they were down so big in the first half today, the rim protection is not there, right? Like they have to really lean into the offense and sort of beat his system. Rotate here, play for each other type defense because they can't rely. Vuch is not a vertical rim protector, but for what it's worth, he stood aground and get his. His ground against some, some decent bigs. So far this season, it's been among the pleasant surprises.

[Dave DeFore]

This team kind of reminds me of another team that we've watched over the last few years. A team that made it to the NBA Finals last year. A team that you covered and watched make it to the NBA Finals, Joel, and that is the Indiana Pacers. The way that they play fast. They revolve around this jumbo guard who can create everything for you. Is there any merit to that? Is there any merit to the fact that this team, the Chicago Bulls, who are now 6 and 1, play like the Pacers?

[Joel Lorenzi]

I wouldn't, I wouldn't even. I wouldn't even settle on the fact that there's Merit to that. I think this is the prophecy. Like they've been kind of mentioning the Pacers the last year or so. Like ever since they really pivoted and leans it trade, traded Zach Levine and the sort of ISO ball and pivoted to this. Hey, we know we don't have that isolation score that's going to help us close games. We need to be this. We're going to lean into transition. We're going to get threes up. And granted they're not the most high volume 13, like they can definitely get up more. But I, I saw Legs say this and, and I, I agree. They care so much about the quality of threes they get and they've been efficient on them for the most part. And so that's who they want to be. It's, it's a replica of the Pacers, right? And I think part of that was like, hey, I, I think, I don't think, I know. AK's philosophy has been like, we don't need. He thinks the league isn't, is no longer trending toward hey, well, a team needs two or three superstars. You can have nine or ten good players is his exact way of phrasing it, and be a good team. Which is kind of what you saw with the Pacers. But obviously the Pacers, what elevated them was Tyrese Halliburton being a top 12ish player. The question then becomes, well, hey, what, what is Giddy, right? How good can he really be? As far as the reason, I don't know where I would even rank him. I'm not the ringer, right? But he has been that kind of guy that could lift a system up and, and be the head of the snake for what they want to be. Now, you'll have other questions. Vuch has been great, maybe as good as any big the Patriots had in their run. And modest Bouzelis, he's had time to kind of game the game sink behind some of the other guys because it's going to be this guy and this guy and this guy's night on any given night. But Modest Bouzilles is obviously the golden child involved in this, which is interesting. Like, can he be the second option? Right?

[Dave DeFore]

Can he be their Pascal Siakam, Right?

[Esperaheny]

Yeah.

[Joel Lorenzi]

Yeah, that's probably the vision. And then Kobe White is obviously such a missing, huge missing piece to this. He played well with Giddy last year. He's obviously for the system. I imagine he'll tweak the, the 3 point volume quite a bit just from being around Efficiency. He has a gravity that they clearly missed in that first half and will be able to sustain longer across a 48 minute period. So I don't know, I'm, I'm kind of buying what they're selling as far as the system. And it's absolutely in the image of the Pacers.

[Esperaheny]

I mean, listen, the spurs have made a lot of money and won a lot of games on the great not good looks from three. Even as the leagues was starting to shoot more and more threes that they depended on getting good open looks, they led to the league in three point shooting a lot. I mean, there's value to that, especially when you can score in transition the way they are. And with the Bulls, I got to give Billy Donovan credit. I've never watched a Bulls game and not seen them playing hard. And there's value to that. And we, we make fun of them for being a play in team, but this is a team that's never trying to lose on purpose. And you win a lot of games in the NBA being a team like that. And this six and one start, I mean, I think you can chalk it up as much to. These guys have played hard for 48 minutes in every single game as, as to anything else.

[Joel Lorenzi]

Yeah. And you, you knock a lot of teams on, on their behind playing, playing this way.

[Dave DeFore]

100%.

[Esperaheny]

Yeah.

[Joel Lorenzi]

And probably I would. Hey, hot take here. They're going to overshoot that 39 wins, probably that they've.

[Dave DeFore]

So wait, I'll actually ask you now, like, where do you think, given a 6 and 1 start, are you ready to change your preseason prediction of where this Bulls team lands?

[Joel Lorenzi]

Yeah, because I actually, I actually shot the under. I think I, I think I said 36 just because I knew what the rim protection was. I didn't know. Personally, I don't think a lot of people guess that Giddy would be this good because the numbers are one thing. Like, I think people knew he put up numbers. But would they impact winning and translates to winning is a whole different conversation.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Joel Lorenzi]

And it had. Not only that, he's conjured offense out of, I'd argue nothing. I mean, some of these lineups, they need two guard lineups to survive. And with IO games, he's had to conjure offense out of sometimes nothing. And I'll give Kevin Herder credit, he's been great as a guy. If I, if I'm ownership and in the front office here, he probably should be part of this build every step of the way because he's such a fitting player for the system. But Giddy's conjuring stuff out of nothing, and I, I didn't see that coming. So I, I think they do. I mean, would it be crazy to say they win 43 or 44? Like, I don't. I don't think that's crazy. It doesn't seem like my line of is. Is like this. They've missed Zach Collins, who's their best screener and so pivotal to the style they want to play, that physicality to everything they were preaching in the preseason. They missed Kobe White, who, I don't know, maybe their best player going into the season. That's what I said. And now it's. It's kind of up for grabs. Right. With how much Giddy means to the system, they'll no doubt be great together in tandem. And so you get those pieces back and it, It. It makes your margin for error, I'd imagine, even larger. If they've been able to get wins like tonight and sustain what they've been able to do against some of the teams they played, I don't see why they couldn't overachieve this, this playing prophecy they've been down to. Yeah. All right.

[Esperaheny]

It's gonna be fun to watch again. The Bulls. Never a dull moment in a Bulls game. And even when they were down 24, I told S. I was like, hey, you did early. Don't count them out. The Bulls, they're back. Maybe. We'll see. I don't know. Guys, Joel Lorenzi. Thanks so much for joining us, guys. Go and read him at Athletic. Thank you to Esperahenny. As always, I'm Dave Deforder. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.

[Dave DeFore]

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[Joel Lorenzi]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Dave DeFore]

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[Joel Lorenzi]

Well, I dig the mattress, and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me. So, Dana.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Dave DeFore]

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[Joel Lorenzi]

Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Dave DeFore]

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[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Esperaheny]

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[Joel Lorenzi]

So what are we having for launch?

[Dave DeFore]

Dude, my work here is done 24 months build credit is on experience beyond.

[Esperaheny]

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[Dave DeFore]

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