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Andrew
Jake.
Jake Stauch
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Andrew
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Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Welcome to the morning shoot around here on the Athletic NBA Daily. It's a live stream. We're hanging out. We've got Dave here at down to Dunk studios in Oklahoma City, which is so nice. Yeah, we have s in Raptor studio up in Toronto.
Dave
That's right. Yeah, it is. It is shifted to a San Antonio spurs studio. I'm sorry, Andrew.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Oh, yeah, well, I know that. I know that. I know that for sure. Last night was. Was a tough one for you S.
Dave
Yes, it definitely has. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. How are things in Oklahoma?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
You know, it's. It's rainy here and. But mostly great.
Andrew
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Thunder, Thunder bounce back. Everybody's feeling good. The. The nervousness. It's. It's so funny thinking about like the way that like the fans were behaving between game one and between game one and two because they hadn't lost a game. Right. In a while.
Dave
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It's been like over a month since they've lost a game and so them losing it felt like. Well, it's, it's. It's over.
Dave
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Like I can't imagine a way that things get better for the Thunder in a series like this, so. Yeah, but everybody's. Everybody's feeling much better after that. And also everybody's feeling a little weird with all the injuries, you know, what are going on.
Andrew
When I was walking back to the hotel after the game last night, I ran into some. Some Thunder fans.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
I. I said, oh, wow. Much better game too. They said, yeah, as long as J. J.U.B. and A.J. can play in game three. I was like, wow, that. That, like every. That's all anybody's worried about. I got a bunch of texts this morning. Any word on Dylan Harper? No.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, I. I don't. I mean, I. My guess is that we'll find out tomorrow.
Dave
I would be surprised if. Cause hamstring injuries are just so, like, it's a. It's at the minimum, like two weeks.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Dave
For a hamstring injury. Right. So if it is hamstrings for both Dylan Harper and Jalen Williams, I would imagine they're both out for the series.
Andrew
Well, J Dub is the. Is to me, the really interesting case because he just missed six games with that. That same hamstring. And he did it non contact.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, right.
Andrew
The tweak was non contact. And so you gotta worry, you know, hey, is this just. Did he just re. Aggravate the injury that he just missed six games with?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, I think he did. They're calling it. They're calling it tightness. He was missing from the bench for a long time. And I was like, yeah, up in the media section, like, roaming around, asking people that would know.
Dave
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
The answer to that question, where is J Dub? Where is he? He's clearly not on the bench. He's not on the bike. Where is he? And people are like,
Andrew
in the back on the massage table.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. And especially in a. Like, if the Thunder lost that game yesterday, it's over. It's over. Now, the Thunder did lose the first two games in a series against San Antonio in 2012.
Andrew
Okay.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And then four in a row.
Dave
Love that series. One of my favorite series of all.
Ad Voice
So it's.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I mean, it's over, but it's not over anyways.
Andrew
Right.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
But if they lose that game, and you would just think that if Dub was able to go, he would have
Andrew
gone,
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
but, yeah, we won't. We won't know. My guess is that we will see him on. The injury report is out. And it may be ambiguous for a little while with him.
Dave
I would say, like.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, go ahead.
Dave
Glass. Glass. Half full slash half empty. Look here. Because of how often The Thunder have played without J Dub this season. Is it a little bit easier to swallow the fact that he might not be there for the rest of the series? Like you just, you've learned how to win with him so much over the course of this year that it just, it might not hurt you as badly as it would if you hadn't had all that experience, if that makes sense.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, I mean, they have the depth. Right. You know, they have the depth necessary. I think we're learning that like San Antonio, especially with losing two guards, they don't really have guard depth.
Andrew
They've only, they've got seven guys.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And in game two that, you know, Harrison Barnes, Jordan McLaughlin is playing, I mean that's, you're reaching. And now part of that, I think because they played Jordan Laughlin early, they were, I don't want to call it a load management game, but it wasn't not a load management game for them.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And now they're in probably in desperation mode with their rotation. I mean, who slides even into the starting lineup if you don't have Fox and you don't have Harper and Stefan Castle is just throwing the ball all over the gym. Like, who's your point guard? Are they going to start Jordan McLaughlin?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer.
Andrew
He got, he got, he got switched on the Shay one time jumper right in his eye. I mean, you know what, I mean, that's what is going to happen if that's the case.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. I, I don't know how the spurs move forward. I would. Because the thing is you need, you need to support Stefan Castle, you know, like he can't be your primary guy right now, which just makes things really tricky for them.
Andrew
It would be one thing if he didn't have to guard Shea on the other end.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, I mean, like, do you move champagne over to Shea more?
Andrew
Maybe a little bit. I, I actually, I think we might see Carter Bryant in the starting lineup. He has given them really good minutes in the first two games. Yeah, he had that great block on Shay, the, you know, the, the rear view kind of contest, like where Wemby is there and she's thinking about him. I think Carter Bryant, I think he's a starter next year possibly anyway.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He could be like, he could be
Andrew
there for next year, but maybe they slide him in the starting lineup that way. That way at least like you have the defense, you have the switchability and then, you know, you hope maybe he sticks a few shots. They're Gonna. I mean, I assume the Thunder are gonna let him shoot a little bit.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
They will.
Andrew
Yeah. So, you know, maybe you get a little Caruso, rub it off on him.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I mean, they would need that. He looked a little deer in the headlights at times. Also, it had bad turnover. Also went to the bathroom.
Andrew
I saw that.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
In the public bathroom.
Andrew
I saw that.
Dave
That was awesome.
Andrew
Well, hey, Andrew, can you actually clear
Dave
something up for me? How far, how far is the visitor's locker room?
Andrew
It's far.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It's. It's quite a bit further. He went to the closest bathroom. It must have been a.
Dave
Okay.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Pseudo emergency. Yeah, I, I would be my guess.
Andrew
I made that walk through the tunnel last night and there's like, there's a pub that's connected back there. I, I don't know if it's for season ticket holders, VIPs.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
But this is the bathroom that's right across the hallway from that publisher.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yes.
Andrew
And it's a, it's a good three minute walk from there to the locker room.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It is.
Andrew
And in the middle of a game.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I don't know, three minutes.
Andrew
Okay, two minutes. You gotta, you gotta go around a corner. You gotta find the right door. Cuz there's multiple doors. I. I'm just saying when you gotta go, you gotta go.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He had to go.
Andrew
And it's in the middle of the game. He didn't want to be gone long.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And listen, we learned a lot about his hygiene yesterday.
Andrew
Oh, no.
Dave
Wash his hands.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He washes his hands.
Dave
He washed his hands.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
No, it's a good thing.
Andrew
All right.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
No, it's a really good thing.
Andrew
Awesome.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew
Good.
Dave
Did a great job. Yeah. Honestly, that was more information than I needed to know about.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
No, it was great. It was great to know.
Dave
I agree with Carter Bryant. It might not be bad to put him into the starting lineup. I wonder if they go for Keldon Johnson because he's been pretty good for them in this.
Andrew
Was he good in game two? Because, see, to me, he didn't show up until the last few minutes.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Kelvin was not great in game two, in my opinion. Yeah, I think the Thunder handled him much better.
Andrew
He wasn't able to do the same bully ball that worked in game one. Yeah, they, they were actually. I mean, they were just. It wasn't anything that they changed. They just were tougher, to be honest with you. They were stronger, more prepared, I think.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
Right when he came in and, and tried to like, back them down.
Dave
Wemby rules. Some will say, you know, let's, let's Talk about that.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Let's talk about the physicality now, watching the game, like, yeah, I just thought that we were aware of what playoff physicality was.
Andrew
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
In general, I just thought that we were more aware of it. I thought that we knew what playoff physicality was, and apparently we're not. Apparently, we're averse to it, and people don't want to see physical. There's physicality from both teams. It's not like.
Andrew
It's just we both sides in this.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yes, absolutely. Yes. Because it's happening, and it's okay. Stefan Castle, Physicality is good.
Andrew
Stefan Castle, the way he guards the ball out top is extremely physical, but he doesn't foul.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
In the paint, everyone is fouling.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
Constantly. Now, can we split hairs and say, okay, maybe you shouldn't be able to grab a guy and kind of run block when, you know, when you're on the offense. Like, maybe you shouldn't be able to grab Wemby and move him out of the way like that. Sure, we can. We can argue that, but I see San Antonio do the same stuff.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. That's the thing is like, yeah, go ahead.
Dave
S. I was just gonna say, I think it's just funny because there was a highlight reel that the broadcast put together to be like, oh, look how much of a difference maker Isaiah Hartenstein is. And truthfully, I do think Hartenstein made a difference.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Ye. Yeah.
Dave
But it's just in that highlight play, it was like, pull jab, like, step on the foot, whatever. And I. Again, like, if you go through NBA history, there is a guy like this, a lot like Bill Lambir is an iconic version of this. Right. The Pistons bad boy. And I'm. I'm not calling them that. I'm not saying this is that.
Andrew
Okay.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
This is. This is. This is maybe the 2026 version of Lambert where. Where, like, the fan. Like, some of the fans are reacting as if it is.
Dave
I know. Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Some of the fans are acting like that's what this is.
Dave
The. The way it's being packaged is as if this is like the bad boy Thunder. And it's just. That's not what this is. Yeah, it's. It's not like that at all. Physicality is just a part of this. And also, these are. These are arguably the two most. Outside of maybe the Pistons. These are the two most physical teams in the NBA.
Andrew
Right.
Dave
And you were always going to get a rock fight, and that's why you're seeing the soft tissue injuries, too. The speed at which both of these teams Play the ground coverage. All of that means a lot of bang bang plays. And I mean, I don't know how you guys felt in the arena. I'd love to get your thoughts, but when I was watching on tv, it felt like the game was in two times speed, like how quickly everything was moving. It felt like it was just a different sport in comparison to basically everything else we've watched this season. Not just in the way that they are competitive, but also the, the speed and the pace and the intensity, it just, it's unmatched. So that's why you're seeing so much physicality, truthfully, on both sides. I agree.
Andrew
Well, also, but like, let's not forget Wimby, seven and a half feet tall. Right. You have to be physical with him because he is going to outsize you at every turn.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And there is a way like you can be physical without being, you know, like you're not. They're not tackling him to the ground. They are grabbing. But that's, that's part of the NBA. Like guys are getting grabbed on every possession, every rebound, and you, it's almost like holding, which is why these teams play the way they do. I talked about this, you know, during the season. Like the old Miami Heat adage, if we foul all the time, they can't call all of them. That's real. And so it's not so much that it's a strategy, it's just, hey, we, we've raised the level of intensity and physicality to, to the point where some of this stuff that look would be a foul in, you know, February to get you through the, through the season is no longer a foul because the playoffs are a different sport. They really are a different sport. Whether that's good or bad or not for the NBA is debatable. I, I mean this is the style of basketball I prefer. I don't now. It's incredible. I think that there's a little bit, it's a little bit too grabby because I think that freedom of movement for the offense is important. But with the defense being at a constant disadvantage in the NBA because of the quick whistles, because of the fact that you can't hand check on the perimeter. I don't care about the grabs. Like, let them play. Let the defense have a chance.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. I mean, great players get grabbed.
Andrew
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Shay does too. He had like the first two rounds. He's getting grabbed like crazy. Marcus Smart, she's like wrapping his arms around him. Right. I mean, Austin Reeves is like putting both arms Underneath his armpits and raising them up. You know, like, there is, there's examples of it everywhere happening in the NBA. Anthony Edwards got, got grabbed every. It happens. The problem is, like, these guys are so good and Wimby is so good and Shea is so good that you have to help. You have to push the boundaries of this. And that's where the physicality is, like, comes into this.
Andrew
People keep talking about who has the worst whistle in, in the league. Stephen Curry has the worst whistle to ever maybe exist in the NBA. When you watch how he's grabbed off the ball, how he's hit, knocked down, they never. I mean, the guy shoots four free throws a game.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
That's insane, right? That's a guy that you can complain about if you're a fan. And he's still the goat, right? Like, he found a way to make it work. And there, there's, I mean, and probably hours of footage of him getting knocked down, grabbed, pulled, pushed, all these other.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I just don't remember the conversations.
Andrew
Like, everything is about refereeing right now.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It is the lamest, lame man. It is the lamest thing.
Andrew
People watching the games, thinking about the refs. And this is where. Back to my, my point. I don't want to know these referees names. I don't want them to have personality. Bro, put a mask.
Dave
Well, well, now they have them in tears. You know, the, the mbpa, they came out with years.
Andrew
Listen, that's a good thing actually. And maybe the league should listen to it because that list is pretty good. You know the tier three guys, those are the guys who names, you know, you don't want them out there.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
The only guy's name who I want to know is Carl Lane because he has the greatest referee photo ever. It's just the slightest smirk and he's looking into the camera like he is on like a 90s sitcom. And he like, just said his like one liner and he's looking into the camera. That's the only name we should know. If you haven't seen Carl Lane's photo, look it up. You're gonna love it. It's gonna make your day 13 better. I promise you. It's very good. Everybody else. Yeah, I don't, I don't care to know who these guys are, what their personalities are like. Their job is to make sure that game flow happens. That's it. And that nobody gets hurt. Yeah, those are the. That's. That's their job. And you know, the injuries that have happened weren't as a result of physicality they're as a result of the NBA playing too many basketball games.
Andrew
That's it.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And there's too many possessions and not
Andrew
enough time off between these games is another thing.
Dave
Yeah.
Andrew
The spurs played huge minutes in game one, every single one of them. And then they have to come back a day and a half later, essentially.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
You know, and do this is.
Dave
I, I actually, I feel like this series being as competitive and intense and truthfully insane as it is, if I was an Eastern Conference team, I'd be like, man, continue beating.
Andrew
Oh, the Knicks need to be just like sitting there like, oh, I can't wait for these guys to show up after a seven game series. Who's going to be left standing, you know. Exactly. If the Knicks win the title this year because these two teams beat each other up.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
Honestly, not a bad thing for the NBA. Right. Like, hey, it is a little bit of a war of attrition. You do have to be deep, but maybe you could still be old if, if the young guys are all hurt, you know, everyone's got a shot.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It's true.
Andrew
Yeah.
Dave
Like they, it's a, it's a war of attrition, man. The NBA playoffs, it's always three months,
Andrew
always a war of attrition on top of a six and a half month long season. Right.
Ad Voice
Like it's a lot of basketball in
Andrew
a short amount of time and the intensity is cranked up. I mean it's just.
Dave
I don't know.
Andrew
But that being said, I think the refs have been good in the first two games. We. When you consider, like you said, s the, the pace of play, the speed of these guys, how much like they're moving around the court. I mean you watch the spurs and, and the Thunder execute X outs on shooters and they do it without foul. I mean there's just so much precision happening there and there's so much play underneath the basket. And I think Victor Womenyama is a hard guy to officiate and I really think that the refs have been. I would give them like a 90 out of 100 as far as the game. I haven't felt them nearly as much as it feels like people have. Watch it from home.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. I've watched both these games in person and I don't walk away thinking about the officials. I think it's the way that the online community exists and the way that like some people have made their brands on. Let me show you the things that should annoy you about officiating. Like that's like some people's online brand and how they are like getting people riled up is like this, like rage bait, man.
Andrew
Are we sure that isn't being like, like, is the Kremlin funding this? And it's like an anti NBA like, Russian smear campaign. Are there bots? This is.
Dave
You know what the, the craziest thing is? On top of, on top of all of this, like, I, I really do believe this. The two things that NBA fans complain about the most, that relatively. And I say this as someone who actually doesn't know either, like, we don't know enough about one, coaching and two, officiating. Like, those are the two black boxes of the NBA that everybody gravitates towards to complain. It's this coach didn't do the adjustments, this coach didn't call that timeout, this coach didn't make that play, etc. Etc. Or it's. We didn't get the calls right. The free throw discrepancy, the fouls, whatever, those are the two ways that NBA fans like to complain about the game. And truthfully, and I say this as someone that sometimes become like, is prone to this too, it's because we don't get like that inside. Look at exactly how these things work, how coaching works, how you're right, offices work.
Andrew
You know, I don't know about the refs. I think with the refs you can see it. And the problem is that we get the slow mo replay where we see like the stuff that you see.
Dave
Yeah, maybe we see too much from the refs.
Andrew
Too much. I think we see too much. I hate replay review. I don't like it. I would rather just get the game going. Replay review has brought us things that do not actually exist in basketball like it used to be. I'm going up for a rebound. You come in from behind me, ball goes out of bounds, that's my ball. We're going the other way. That that's actually how it should be. But okay, now we're going to go to the replay review and mo my fingernail hit the ball. That's not basketball. Like, there is a. Some of this is. It's too black and white because we see these replays. For instance, game one, Knicks Cavs, Jared Allen commits a flagrant foul on a layup.
Dave
But.
Andrew
Oh, wait, but Carl Anthony Towns actually kind of grabbed Jared Allen's arm way before this. It's a foul on Towns. No flagrant. No. You know what I mean?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
This is. Just call it and let it go. The human element. And actually, I don't know if anybody watches baseball. This, this Ball and strike challenge, I want the human umpire. Like, that's actually part of baseball. Yeah, I don't mind arguing calls after the fact.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, it's. Perfection should not be the goal in sports. There's. There's not been a perfect game played ever. No, there's not been a perfect officiated game ever. Imperfection is like a part of life. It's a part of sports. And the fact that, like, we're aiming for perfection is almost like getting in the way of the sport happening.
Andrew
The conversations being about refs after the games that we just watched is.
Dave
Is a bummer.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I can't think of anything more lame. I cannot imagine anything more lame like watching that game and then coming away thinking, like, well, let's talk about the jobs of the officials. Like, dude, can we not talk about, like, some of the greatest players to ever touch a basketball? Caruso is playing against each other. We got the ghost.
Dave
I will say this again. This is genuinely one of the best playoff series I've ever watched in my life. Through two games, it's genuinely been one of the best playoff series.
Andrew
Well, you were talking about. All right, you were talking about coaching ass. And to your point, we don't know what's. What the game plan is. Right. But I have a pretty good sense. And maybe, I mean, look, I have coaching experience, so I can understand this. But also, I think anybody that knows basketball, you can. You know whether a team is executing their game plan or not. Like, you just know if guys look lost, obviously they're not. And I do think that that stuff shows up. Kenny Atkinson, I think.
Dave
I think that's. That ends up more on the players, though.
Andrew
Oh, no, no, no. Yes, of course. Right. But like, I would say, like, Kenny Atkinson allowing an 18 to 1 run without a timeout. Dude, it doesn't take someone with coaching experience to understand that that's bad.
Dave
Yeah, that's true.
Andrew
If you're an NBA fan, you understand that momentum is actually real in basketball. The hot hand may not be, but momentum is.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And momentum is a real thing.
Andrew
It is a real thing. And. And especially if you're a road team, you have to kill that momentum. Like, guys start seeing the ball. Like, especially in that Knicks game. The Knicks shot so poorly that it affected their defense. That's how they got down 22 because they were working so hard and they were getting stops, and then they come down and it was a brick. And then they couldn't get the offensive rebound like that. Those vibes shifted. You watched them lose energy, which they barely had to start the game anyway. But then you see the ball go in a few times. Oh, okay. This is why Gregg Popovich was always good about the I'm going to take this quick timeout. My guys are messing up. I'm going to take this quick time out. You stop everything. You stop the bleeding. Your guys get to catch their breath. The Knicks were running the Cavs ragged. You got to give those guys a chance to collect themselves. Hey, where are we messing up? And maybe we need a sub here. 18 to 1. Like that's egregious. And like that's the thing that you can point out, in my opinion about coaching the flow of the game. You talked about the refs controlling the flow of the game on the court. The coaches affect the flow of the game for their players.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Every, every great coach knows when to call that timeout to halt. And you at least are trying to stop momentum or at least pause it.
Andrew
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
To in, in an attempt to stop
Andrew
it, you give up five straight buckets without getting one yourself. You gotta take a timeout.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
If you don't take a timeout, then you, you are, you are leaving your players out to drive because like they are obviously bleeding the points.
Andrew
Yep.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And they, they need help. Like they need your help in that moment. It's, it's like the, the job of the coach is to make the arguments with the officials and like try to. It's politics. They're trying to like, get the officials to do the thing they want them to do and to stop the game when it needs stopped.
Andrew
Right.
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Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
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Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
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Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
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Andrew
Not everybody is coaching every single possession out, right? Like Joe Missoula calls play on every possession. Not every, every coach does that.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, it's, it's rare and they're. And yeah, a lot of Mark calls sets, sure. But he's not, he's not really calling plays.
Andrew
Yeah. And it's, it's just like again, it's, there's a vibe to coaching that it's an art. Yeah, right. It's much more art than science. We want it to be science. Like we, we want this guy to have this playbook that's magic and there's no magic. I, I promise you. No one's inventing new styles of play and basket. Like that's, it's just. Well, it's also like they're making adjustments here and there. Like the, like we're gonna not screen as much and stuff like that. But they're not creating anything new. Everybody's just stealing old stuff and trying to find something that works for their guys.
Dave
It's also discounting how much work and responsibility the assistant coaches have in all of this. Like, there's going to be an offensive guy who's might draw up a play for you on a given possession, or there's a defensive guy who's going to come in and say, hey, they're running this out of this timeout. Watch out for this. This is exactly the play. Like you even see it when they zoom in on the huddle, right. That sometimes it'll be the defensive guy leading the charge or it's the offensive guy or someone else, another assistant is going to be leading the charge to throw it all on. Like this head coach. Head coach is more like, I don't know, a CEO of a company that
Andrew
like basketball would think is. It's just a little bit different than football where like, they really do hand off a lot of responsibility and they make the ultimate call. Like in the NBA, I think it's more like the defensive coaches have a much stronger voice than like, like your offensive guru, let's say.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And, and if it's, you know, if you're drawing up a play, you're not really drawing up anything new. You're going to stuff that you've already run 50,000 times. It's usually going to be the head coach that's like, hey, this is what
Dave
we're going to do.
Andrew
And then you're talking about just keys. It's like, guys, you're. You're falling asleep on the glass.
Dave
Exactly.
Andrew
You're giving up these backdoor cuts. Wake up. Right. Like, that's really what the head coach in the NBA is doing. Like, you just don't get to. I don't know, it's not a video game. I don't get to take over Shay Gilders Alexander and make, oh, hey, do that move and hit that 16 footer. It's, you know, whereas in football, I think the technicality of it, like, it is much more. Okay, if you block here and you block here, that hole is open and it's just more. A little bit more. I think the coach is so much more involved.
Dave
Coaching is way more important.
Andrew
Exactly. Absolutely. You're actually more like a general in a war in football than. Than a coach.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, well. And we're seeing some great coaching on both sides.
Andrew
Absolutely. Yep. Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Like, I wouldn't say old coaching.
Andrew
By the way, Mark Dagnault has shown, like, just guts. I mean, just guts. He sat Hartenstein. How many minutes Hartenstein play in game one? Was it 12? 12 minutes. And then he comes out and he's like, hey, I need you to be a huge piece tonight. And he just. That's buy in, but also, man, ballsy. Just like, incredible. Like, this is why I was so excited about coming here for this series. Throwing out your starting lineup two minutes into the series is incredible. Yeah, it's incredible and it takes guts. And we see teams all the time do this thing where I got to stick with my guys. They got us here.
Dave
Yeah, I got to stick with them. Well, they, they. How many different starting lineups did they have in the finals last year? Like four.
Andrew
Well, they played 12 guys in the first quarter of game.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Well, they, they changed their starting lineup to, to begin the series and then they Went back to. And then they went their traditional starting line.
Dave
Right. Because it was case in. And then it was the double big lineup. And then they went back to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
We're gonna take this. Let's take a quick break. I'm gonna. I'm gonna make sure my Internet gets a little bit better. We'll come back, we're gonna talk about the all rookie teams are going to make Dave guess the all rookie teams not seen them. Okay, I'm looking forward to that. And we'll have a few more NBA discussions. We'll be right back. And we're back after that quick break. All right. Dave Defore. Okay, it's time. Put your phone down. Put your phone down. Put your phone down. Come on, Dave. Put your phone down.
Dave
Yeah. Yes.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. It's time to talk about the all rookie teams that were announced yesterday.
Andrew
The playoffs. Look, once we get to the.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Dave, no, stop, stop.
Andrew
We.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
You have to guess. Don't do this. No. You don't have to say a thing. You have to say anything. All you have to do is say 10 names. That's what you have to do first. Don't do this.
Andrew
First team, Cooper flag.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Cooper flag is unanimous. All 100 votes.
Andrew
All right. Con knipple.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Con caniple. All 100 votes.
Andrew
Vijay Edgecombe.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
BJ Edgecombe. All 100 votes.
Andrew
First team, Cedric Coward.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Cedric Coward got 29 first place votes. Six, seven second place votes. And he is on the first team.
Andrew
Okay, now's where it gets tough. Did Dylan Harper make first team?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Did Dylan Harper make first team? He absolutely did. Dylan Harper is on the first team.
Andrew
Five for five.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
93 votes. 93 first place votes. Seven second place votes.
Andrew
Wait, okay, so coward had what, 29 first place votes?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yes.
Andrew
Interesting.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
Maxime Reynaud, did he make second team?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He did. 26 second place or first place votes. 58 second place votes. He is. He's tied with another guy for total points for second team.
Andrew
Here's where it's going to get tough.
Dave
This is where it gets a little tricky.
Andrew
Real tough. I'm blanking right now. Hard. Oh, man. Hmm.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
We've talked about this team a lot when it came to the draft and their decisions around the 2025 NBA Draft.
Andrew
Derek Queen.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Derek Queen.
Andrew
Okay.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yes.
Dave
Yeah. And. And another one.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Another one.
Andrew
Oh. Fears. Fears the second team.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Fears the second team.
Andrew
That's impressive.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yep. And then there's two more.
Andrew
Does that make up for trading those picks to Atlanta?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
This is what they were wanting. They wanted to know, can we get two guys on the all rookie second team.
Andrew
That's it.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And if they do, they'll declare victory,
Andrew
drop a mission accomplished.
Dave
I will say I do think it's worked out pretty decently for them. Like the eighth pick isn't terrible, you know, like the eighth. We'll see who, who, what happens with the eighth pick in this draft. But Queen and fears for the eighth pick in this draft. Not like the craziest trade, you know, disagree.
Andrew
Like, you think Queen is playable in the playoffs? Yes. Fears might be.
Dave
No.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Depends on what series you're talking about. If. If he's.
Dave
Yeah, I don't think any of those guys.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He's gonna be on the spot.
Dave
I don't think any of those guys are playable in this OKC spurs series. We were actually, I was having this debate earlier. It's like, how many, how many Raptors do you think would be playable in this OKC San Antonio?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Okay.
Andrew
Barnes. Cmb.
Dave
Yeah. Yep.
Andrew
Which is, you know, like, I, I'm a big Kyler Murray boys fan. I think that that dude is like, he's gonna.
Dave
Yeah, I think those guys guaranteed complaints,
Andrew
but that's because of their, like their athleticism, their, you know, their size.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I think there's a world where CMB would be playing in the series. Yeah. I think the Thunder, he seems like a guy. The Thunder would go after RJ Barrett.
Dave
Almost. Yeah.
Andrew
RJ Barrett. If, if the spurs had RJ Barrett at the four.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He would play.
Andrew
They would.
Dave
Yeah, he would play.
Andrew
Right. Like, they would be really good.
Dave
Kelden Johnson is playing in this series. I think RJ Barrett would play 100.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Oh, yeah, 100. Jamal Shed is a guy that the spurs need right about now, right?
Dave
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually very true. Yeah. Imagine you had him instead of Jordan McLaughlin.
Andrew
Yeah, that's true.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
But that, that's about it.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Jacoby.
Dave
Jacoby could play. I think he could. I mean, like we're seeing, we're seeing. We're seeing Jared McCain play and we're seeing like Isaiah Joe play, I think, I think Jacob.
Andrew
Okay, we're not really seeing Isaiah Joe play.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
We're seeing him get a shot. Yeah, yeah, we're seeing him get a shot.
Andrew
He's getting some run that beginning of the second quarter slot. Andrew, they're going to put you in in the next game, right? Like, he's just trying stuff out.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It would go very poorly, I will tell you that. It would go very, very poorly.
Andrew
You can stick one dude.
Dave
How many all rookie. How many all rookie players is he still missing?
Andrew
There's Two left.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
There's two left.
Andrew
Two second team guys left.
Dave
Yeah.
Andrew
I don't know, man.
Dave
I'll just tell you. You, you, you just mentioned one like 30 seconds ago.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
Oh, CMB.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
CMB.
Dave
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew
Oh, and one left.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
One more.
Dave
I'm actually trying to think of who this one is. I don't remember either.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Don't think too hard. That's what I would tell you. That's a hint.
Dave
Yeah.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Think too hard.
Dave
No fears Queen
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
highly touted. His. He has a college teammate that's on this list.
Dave
Oh, right. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just say he might get traded before the NBA draft.
Andrew
What? Okay, I've. Now I'm. I'm real.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Well, it, I mean, there's rumors of it. I don't think there's rumors of it.
Dave
I don't think it'll happen. But there's a rumor. There's, there's some rumors there. There's some murmurs.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He shares the name with a playing card and a deck of cards.
Andrew
Oh, Ace. Ace Bailey might get traded. Wait, okay, who said that?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It's. It's just been like the hypothetical. Like if, if the Jazz want the number one pick, they have to trade Ace.
Dave
Yeah, Ace and the second pick to move up to first.
Andrew
That's a crazy amount to give up. Like Ace Bailey is. Is good.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. It depends on what your evaluation is. Because like a lot of times.
Dave
Exactly.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
If you think that this number one guy, whoever you think it is.
Andrew
Well, the jazz think it's A.J. jabonso.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
If you think it's A.J. and you think like he is going to be a superstar and then everybody else is going to be like. Let, let's say that everybody else is like a Devin Booker level star.
Andrew
Sure.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
But AJ is like a top five player, then it's 3 billion percent worth it to do that trade. I don't know if that's the evaluation. I have no clue if that's how they think about it. But if you do think about it in that term, in that way, it's absolutely worth it. Because I don't know that anybody's making like a super duper star evaluation on Ace Bailey right now. I think they think he's going to be a good player. But there's so many times where the number one pick in a draft shapes the NBA.
Dave
Right.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And like the best player in a draft, in a really good draft can shape the NBA for a very long time. And if you have that player, especially on a rookie scale deal, like you have like a huge opportunity in front of you. So I don't know if that, I don't know where these teams evaluations are on these guys or if they think that there's that big of a difference between them, but I don't think it's. I think, I think it feels insane, but I don't know if it's as crazy as you think it is. Depending on what the evaluations are. If that makes sense.
Andrew
Yeah, no, no, it makes total sense for me. It's. If you're, if you're Utah. Okay, let's say A.J. deBonta goes one. The Wizards are going to take him.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
But you get your pick of the other three top guys. Right.
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Andrew
We. Is the consensus that Darren Peterson has the, the most bust potential of those top four?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I don't know. I don't know.
Andrew
He's the risky, he's the risky pick. It seems like maybe
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
there's definitely like the off the court stuff is weird, right?
Andrew
Creatine doesn't make you cramp. Just throwing that out there, like.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah, it's not a thing.
Dave
I, I don't know. I, I think, I think. But he also, he also. I will just say of all the draft, I think Darren Peterson clearly is the best guy. Like in my opinion, I think he's like flat out the best player.
Andrew
So if you're, if you're the Wizards, is that like s. Which he's available at 3.
Dave
I, I would, I would pick him. I would pick Darren Peterson. I wouldn't care about Trey Young being there or anything like that.
Andrew
Oh, yeah. See now that's, that, that's the way this needs to go for the, the Wizards, right? Like they can't care about anybody on their roster except for maybe you could say absolutely, like, oh, we could take Boozer because he works really, really well. Like Sar is there.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And the fit. That's actually one, I guess, one fit that you could, you could really think about. That's two high level players, theoretically.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
But Boozer is like the safe pick.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah. I don't know. You have, you have. You, you, you can't, you can't go. Safest pick in the draft.
Dave
Yeah, I agree.
Andrew
I agree.
Dave
You've got to take, Take the guy. Take the guy, man.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Because if you're the Wizards, you haven't won 50 games since the 1970s. Okay. That's a real thing. Like you're going to. You, you need a superstar. And it's not Trey Young and it's not Anthony Davis and it's not Alex Saar.
Andrew
It's definitely not Bub Carrington.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Poor Bob.
Dave
It's not Bilal Kulibali either, unfortunately. But the Wizards are in a good spot. Guys, I will say I. I just. I have to bounce, but. Okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make a prediction. I'm gonna say the Knicks win tonight again.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Dave
And I think the spurs will win game three.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Okay.
Dave
All I got.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
All right. All right. See ya ass later, guys. All right, Dave, anything else? Any. Any thoughts on tonight's game between Cavs Nicks before we get out of here?
Andrew
You know, look, I was hard on Kenny Atkinson about some of the stuff at the end of that game.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
The biggest problem is James Harden. It's not Kenny Atkinson. It's not that Evan Mobley and Jared Allen can get soft sometimes.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
It's now James Harden.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Dude. It is outrageously funny.
Andrew
The Knicks were 13 out of 15 when he guarded the ball. That is absurd.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Dude, you want to talk about players that couldn't play in this Thunder spurs series? Imagine James Harden might be at the top of the list.
Andrew
Hey, we. We need you for six minutes.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Dude. I. The. The level of competitiveness is. Is out of this world. Out of this world in this series. And James Harden is operating at about 50% of that competitiveness.
Andrew
I hate, like, I hate to talk about an athlete or a player and just say, wow, like, where's the effort?
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
But there's none. There's just none.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
I know.
Andrew
He's got, what, a 50 million, $48 million player option this summer? I mean, that's just crazy, man.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
And then he's picking that baby up. I just pick it up.
Andrew
And there's an argument to be made that the move that they made, you. You move Garland because he can't play.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And you get hardened because he does play. I understand that. I get it. And also, this team, if they fail, is. It might get blown up. Kenny Atkinson might get fired. You know, they are at that point in their process, so. Sure, we'll. We'll throw the kitchen sink at this. James Harden is a trash compactor. He's not the kitchen sink.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Like, yeah, he.
Andrew
He, like, sometimes. Great. That thing gets clogged. It's a mess. And that's what we saw in the game the other night. Jalen Brunson can cook all. Any. Pretty much any player on the Cavs, except for it seems like Max Druse and Dean Wade.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Shout out Dean Wade, man.
Andrew
He's great.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
He's been playing really hard.
Andrew
And if. If I'm. If I'm Cleveland. And they start targeting James Harden. I'm benching him. You got to bench him. And that's why Donovan Mitchell is your star. Right. Max Struus can ball.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Oh, my gosh. It's just so funny that they. Their solution to their problem and, like, credit to them. They made it to the conference finals. Yeah, they did that. That's amazing. But now we're talking about, like, the challenge that's in front of them. And James Harden is not the answer to that problem. And it's really, it's just funny that Cleveland would trade for him and expect some kind of different result come playoff time. Like, James Harden is eternally James Harden.
Andrew
And they blew their chance. This was the other thing.
Dave
Yeah.
Andrew
By like you blew a 22 point lead in game one at the Garden and that was your chance to actually win the series.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And they lost the series by blowing that lead. Like, if they don't win tonight, it's over. The series is over.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
And the Knicks are looking like they're going to be nice and fresh for the finals against these two teams that are beating each other bloody.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
So. Yeah. That was such a. It was. It's amazing to watch the entire NBA almost swing on one quarter of basketball.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
Yeah.
Andrew
Crazy.
Host (possibly a lead NBA analyst)
It's crazy. Okay, we'll have more coverage for you guys tonight on the Athletic NBA Daily, and we'll be ready in your podcast feed bright and early in the morning. Saturday Slam and Jam will be recorded Friday night after the Thunder game, so you'll have on Saturday fresh content on Thunder Spurs. Looking forward to that. Hope everybody's doing great. We'll talk to you guys again tomorrow.
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Date: May 21, 2026
Hosts: Dave DuFour, Andrew Schlecht, and a lead NBA analyst (identity unclear in transcript; likely Zena Keita or Esfandiar Baraheni)
Theme:
A lively Morning Shoot Around focusing on the Thunder-Spurs playoff series, the intensity and physicality of the games, injury concerns, refereeing and fan reactions, coaching, depth, and post-season award discussions, plus a look at the Knicks/Cavs series and all-rookie team results.
The episode centers on the escalating physicality of the Thunder-Spurs playoff series, examining whether the Thunder have crossed a line or if both teams are simply playing hard-nosed playoff basketball. The hosts also explore injury impacts, the role of referees, and coaching nuances. Later, there’s a spirited discussion on all-rookie awards and league-wide playoff implications, especially revolving around the Knicks and Cavaliers. The tone is friendly, energetic, and slightly irreverent, with sharp basketball analysis throughout.
[02:33–05:35]
Notable Quote:
“Because of how often the Thunder have played without J Dub this season, is it…easier to swallow the fact that he might not be there for the rest of the series?...You’ve learned how to win without him so much.”
– Dave, [05:35]
[06:07–08:12]
Notable Quote:
“Who's your point guard? Are they going to start Jordan McLaughlin?...I actually think we might see Carter Bryant in the starting lineup. He has given them really good minutes.”
– Andrew, [06:57-07:53]
[08:18–09:32]
[10:21–15:41]
Notable Quotes:
“Physicality is just a part of this...these are arguably the two most…physical teams in the NBA.”
– Dave, [12:34]
“…we've raised the level of intensity and physicality to the point where stuff that would be a foul in February is not a foul because the playoffs are a different sport.”
– Andrew, [14:20]
[15:41–19:57]
Notable Quotes:
“I don't want to know these referees’ names. I don't want them to have personality…”
– Andrew, [16:20]
“Perfection should not be the goal in sports...the fact that we're aiming for perfection is almost like getting in the way of the sport happening.”
– Host, [22:26]
[17:38–18:49]
Notable Quotes:
“…if I was an Eastern Conference team, I’d be like, man, continue beating [each other up].”
– Dave, [17:53]
“It is a little bit of a war of attrition. You do have to be deep, but maybe you could still be old if the young guys are all hurt.”
– Andrew, [18:20]
[23:13–26:00]
Notable Quotes:
“Not everybody is coaching every single possession out, right?...There’s a vibe to coaching that—it’s an art. It’s much more art than science.”
– Andrew, [30:45–31:00]
“Assistant coaches...lead the charge to throw it all on like this head coach. Head coach is more like a CEO of a company.”
– Dave, [31:29–32:03]
[35:08–41:56]
Notable Quotes:
“Let’s say that everybody else is like a Devin Booker level star. But AJ [DeBonta] is like a top five player, then it’s 3 billion percent worth it to do that trade.”
– Host, [41:23]
[44:49–48:49]
Notable Quotes:
“James Harden is a trash compactor. He’s not the kitchen sink.”
– Andrew, [47:06]
“The level of competitiveness is…out of this world in this series. And James Harden is operating at about 50% of that competitiveness.”
– Host, [46:02]
“It’s amazing to watch the entire NBA almost swing on one quarter of basketball.”
– Andrew, [48:47]
On the absurdity of online ref discourse:
“Are we sure that isn’t being…like the Kremlin funding this?...Is the Kremlin funding this? And it’s like an anti NBA like, Russian smear campaign. Are there bots?”
— Andrew, [19:57]
On playoff physicality:
“These are the two most physical teams in the NBA…You were always going to get a rock fight.”
— Dave, [12:30]
On the nature of coaching in the NBA:
“It’s not a video game…I think the coach [in football] is so much more involved. Coaching is way more important.”
— Andrew, [33:09]
On the all-rookie trade value speculation:
“Ace Bailey might get traded. Wait, okay, who said that?...If you think this number one guy…is going to be a superstar, then everybody else is like a Devin Booker level star…then [the trade] is 3 billion percent worth it.”
— Andrew & Host, [40:36–41:23]
This morning’s episode brims with rich NBA insight, debunking the “Thunder too physical?” narrative by contextualizing the grit of postseason play, featuring deep dives into injury fallout, rotation puzzles, and the perpetual fan scapegoating of referees. With playful banter, the hosts also celebrate stellar coaching and riff about rookie accolades and trade values, closing with takes on the wider playoff picture.
Takeaway:
The Thunder and Spurs’ series is not just ‘physical’ but an epic, old-school playoff battle—testing depth, resilience, and coaching creativity. Ref rhetoric and injuries are omnipresent, but true fans should focus as much on the basketball artistry as they do on the controversy.
For listeners pressed for time:
The heart of the Thunder-Spurs physicality debate and its context in modern NBA, along with sharp commentary about coaching, officiating, and evolving playoff strategies, can be found especially between [10:21–19:57]. The broadcast closes with a look ahead to the Knicks/Cavs, and speculations about the shifting postseason chessboard.