Wemby takes a discount + Caleb Wilson’s debut

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily — July 13, 2026

Episode: “Wemby takes a discount + Caleb Wilson’s debut”

Hosts: Dave DuFour, Esfandiar Baraheni, Joel Lorenzi

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Episode Overview

This lively episode, recorded mid-Summer League, dives into two of the hottest NBA storylines:

1. Victor Wembanyama’s surprising decision to sign a “discount” contract extension with the Spurs—its ripple effects on player contracts and league competitiveness.
2. Caleb Wilson’s electric and emotional Summer League debut with the Chicago Bulls, and what it means for the Bulls’ future.

The hosts mix basketball insight and playful banter while also digging into broader league effects, labor dynamics, and Summer League takeaways.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Victor Wembanyama “Takes a Discount” — What It Means for the NBA

[01:19–09:00]

• Wembanyama Signs Extension Below the Maximum

  • Wembanyama has opted for a contract at the 25% max rather than the 35% supermax, reportedly giving up around $50M ("$50 million on the Spurs' books in that span is a difference maker." —B [04:02]).
  • The hosts note this is almost unprecedented for someone of Wemby’s stature in the league.

• Host Debate: Team Interest vs. Labor Precedent

  • Dave (A) flags that this puts extra pressure on other stars to take less for “competitiveness”:

    “With Wemby being one of the three best players in the league taking a discount so that his team can… be more competitive… it's going to put pressure on other star players.” ([02:07] A)

  • Esfandiar (C) and Joel (B) discuss the NBA Players Association’s resistance:

    “The pressure will now be on the players instead of it being on the owners and the team management to make better decisions.” ([06:11] C)
    “The players themselves will lose out on money… I thought the NBPA did a great job of saying this.” ([06:11] C)

• Marketability Gap

  • Wembanyama’s unique off-court marketability (e.g., Nike), compared to other stars:

    “He's probably the most marketable guy... Nike is... giving him money, a luxury a lot of these guys don't have.” ([03:43] B)

  • The group ponders if this trend could realistically trickle down to role players and the real-life implications for them.

• Potential Impact on Spurs Teammates

  • Esfandiar speculates:

    “Wemby took the pay cut, now Steph Castle will be pressured to do the same. Now Dylan Harper will eventually be pressured to do the same.” ([04:29] C)

  • Joel notes Wemby's decision could avoid tough future choices between promising Spurs players ([04:47] A).

• Broader Implications

  • Dave:

    “If Wimby does it, then management gets to go to those other guys and say, ‘Look, Wemby took a haircut, why don’t you?’” ([07:32] A)

  • The hosts stress the risk of shifting collective bargaining pressure from management to individual athletes.
  • Point raised that even with aggregate pay percentages protected, top value creators (LeBron, Steph, Wemby) are underpaid compared to their true franchise value ([08:07] A).

Memorable Moment:

• Joking about player endorsements:

  “He’s not gonna do the Sprite… or a printer commercial like Shaq”—C ([08:36])

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II. Summer League Vibes & Overreactions

[10:11–11:32]

• Summer League as a Hotbed for Overreactions:
  • Joel flags both negative and positive hot takes after one standout performance.

    “Caleb Wilson was like five points into his 35-point game, and people were like, ‘KG’s reborn!’” ([10:59] B)

  • Example: “Reed Sheppard better learn Chinese” as a social media overreaction after one game ([10:40] B).

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III. Caleb Wilson’s Stunning Debut for the Bulls

[11:33–21:22, resume 29:40–end]

1. Immediate Impact:

• Shot Making:

  • Wilson hit 7 threes in his first Summer League game, “as many as he hit in college” ([11:36] A),

    "They were off the dribble... pull up threes... very different than the ones he did [in college]." ([11:42–11:47] A/B)

  • “Outlier shot making” described by Joel ([12:56] B).

• Scouting Notes:

  • Scouts viewed Wilson mostly as a dominant interior scorer at North Carolina, but his handle, shooting touch, and versatility have surprised people present ([13:13] B).
  • Host praise for Wilson's emotional intelligence and competitiveness.

2. Emotional Backstory – Wilson the Person

• Pre-game Emotions:

  “He cried before the game... it was so much for him to wait five months [after surgery]” ([16:19] B).

• Motivation:
  • Custom lock screen on his phone from the walk to his last North Carolina game as inspiration during rehab ([16:03] A/B).
  • “He’s taking 2,000 shots a day. I can’t verify that, but I wouldn’t put it past him.” ([15:36] B)
• Desire to Change Bulls Culture:
  • Wilson intentionally hoped to land in Chicago, hoping to “be the catalyst of something built from the ground up” ([14:49] B).
• Competitive Drive:

  "All he could say... was, 'we lost. Like, I don't care. We lost.' It's going to be hard to tell that guy – to convince that guy to lose." ([29:22] B)

3. Fit with the Bulls, Roster Construction, and Thiago Splitter’s Vision

• Fluid, Positionless Lineups:
  • Splitter is expected to be adaptive, “very Spursian,” but to play to the strengths of Wilson, Bouzelis, Claxton, and Giddey ([19:53] A–B, [21:04] A–C).
• Prospects for Pairing Wilson & Bouzelis:
  • "If I'm choosing between them, you gotta put the ball in Caleb’s hands." ([32:28] B)
  • Wilson’s perimeter skills may allow Bouzelis to expand his role beyond spot-up shooting.
• New Additions & Veterans:
  • Norman Powell is praised for his shooting, maturity, and mentorship potential ([24:24] B, [23:29] C–B).
  • Nick Claxton’s value debated, with hope for a bounce-back in a better situation ([26:27] C–A).

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IV. Chicago Bulls Outlook & the Eastern Conference Landscape

[27:07–end]

• Expectation Setting:

  • The Bulls projected as a "low 30s win team," potentially in the thick of the new mid-lottery tier, thanks to reform ([27:32] B, [28:08] C).
  • New lottery and play-in formats cited as “built for” teams like the Bulls—good enough to remain competitive, bad enough to stay in the drafting mix ([28:24] A).

• Cultural Shift:

  • The Bulls’ focus reportedly will be maximizing development for Wilson and Bouzelis, with Splitter emphasizing flexibility and growth over rigid systems ([23:00] B).

• Rookie of the Year Debate:

  • Wilson is considered a true contender:

    "I think the usage is there for Caleb to just take the Rookie of the Year." ([34:57] C)

  • Cam Boozer and Darius Acuff also mentioned, but with caveats regarding team success and roles ([36:02] B, [35:24] B).

• League-wide Tank Watch:

  • The hosts do a fun “bottom three” exercise, predicting the likely worst records (Milwaukee, Brooklyn, possible Dallas or Memphis) ([29:53] C–[31:17] A).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wembanyama’s Motivation:

  “He doesn’t seem like a guy that is money motivated… he’s not going to sell soda, right? He’s not going to do the Sprite, he’s not doing a printer commercial like Shaq.” — Esfandiar ([08:31–08:36])

• On “Win at All Costs” Pressure:

  “Victor Wembanyama taking a $50 million haircut off a $300 million contract is nothing…. But a guy who's making 8 taking a $2 million pay cut to 6 is a massive amount of money.” — Dave ([05:26])

• Caleb Wilson’s Work Ethic:

  “He’s taking 2,000 shots a day. I can’t verify that, but I wouldn’t put it past him.” — Joel ([15:36])

• On rookie competitiveness:

  “He cried before the game… it was just, it was so much for him to wait five months and he had July 10th circled on his...”—Joel ([16:19])

• On Bulls’ future:

  “The Bulls… may be a low 30s team. I know Chicago fans are tired of hovering in that middle, but… lottery reforms make it so they’re in perfect position.” — Joel ([27:32])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|------------------------------------------------| | 01:19–09:00| Wembanyama “discount” contract analysis | | 10:11–11:32| Summer League overreactions | | 11:33–21:22| Caleb Wilson’s debut, scouting, and persona | | 21:23–24:24| Bulls’ new additions & lineups | | 29:40–32:56| Bouzelis’ fit, rookie usage/integration | | 32:57–36:55| Rookie of the Year debate & bottom-tier teams | | 37:57–end | Deep Bulls roster cuts, point guard rotation |

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Conclusion

This episode delivered a sharp, nuanced look at how a single superstar’s financial decision (Wemby) can shift league-wide pressure dynamics, while balancing that with fun, hope-filled Summer League reactions—particularly to Caleb Wilson’s monster debut and bright future in Chicago. The hosts offer both context for league trends and inside details for Bulls and NBA fans.

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Transcript

[A]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for July 13, 2026. I'm Dave DeFore here with Esperahenne and Joel Lorenzi. Coming up, Victor Womenyama is taking a discount. Caleb Wilson is awesome. Joel Lorenzi is going to tell us all about the Bulls. Good morning, everybody. What is up, Joel? Welcome to the orange couch.

[B]

Man, this is sick. I like this. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. What up, Howie?

[A]

Guys, I. I do not look like Howie Mandel at all.

[C]

He walked in and called him.

[A]

Just by virtue of being a bald white man does not mean look. Do I look like Alex Caruso to you?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[C]

Different. Different type of Baldwin.

[B]

I forget how the lore started. This started at the Cosmo the other night.

[A]

No, no, no, no. You called me Howie Mandel during the conference finals.

[C]

I think.

[A]

I honestly think that it's like me and Howie Mandel are only bald white dudes.

[B]

You know, you might be a clean freak. That might be what it be. You might be.

[A]

Well, I'm not a germaphobe, but like, have you got.

[C]

Have you got Mr. Clean before?

[A]

Yeah, but I mean, he was clean shaven and, you know, like, I got the beard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Kind of got.

[C]

Howie doesn't have a beard either.

[A]

Yeah, but like, you know, I mean, listen, a lot of guys, once they shave their head, the beard let us

[C]

know in the comments which white guy.

[A]

There's a lot white dudes. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Joel Lorenzi covers the Bulls for us. The Bulls, man. Exciting. We're gonna get to them in a second. But before we get there, just a little bit of news that has come out while we've been at summer league that we didn't get a chance to talk about. And Joel, I'm kind of glad you're here for this because it is interesting. Victor, women. Yama is going to take a discount on his extension.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's going to take a 25 max instead of 35%, which that has been the conversation surrounding almost. I would say the conversation of the summer has been about the 35% max. When you think about Jalen Brown and

[C]

him getting traded, essentially he loses out on $50 million. He's making a 50 million. I mean, he.

[A]

Listen, he's not going to starve. Right. Like, he's still going to be really good money. But Joelle, I. I'm thinking about the downstream effects of this. There's. There's kind of a pressure aspect of this with Wimy being one of the three best Players in the league taking a discount so that his team can quote, unquote, be more competitive. Isn't that, I mean, it's going to put pressure on other star players. Like, we heard the conversation surrounding Jaylen Brunson and the discount he took and why that helped the Knicks be able to compete.

[C]

I wonder how much, by the way, that had something to do with his, like the fact that he just lost to the team where the, where star

[A]

player taking a discount. Certainly, yeah. I mean, maybe some of that. But. But you know, Joel, when you're looking at this and when you think about the NBA Players association response where they said, hey, this is not cool, like, we don't want to set this precedent. Yeah. I mean, how do you think, like his peers, his teammates are going to react to this?

[B]

It is a, it is a weird thing. It's very layered because you look at like, I, I think so many of these, so much of the off season is connected. Like Jalen Brown, I guess, shocked as we were about that with the numbers. I know the ownership out there is going to say it wasn't a, it wasn't a money thing, but like his value as an asset is directly connected to the kind of money he's going to make. And, and so for I, I mean, we can, we can argue about this, but I think Wemby is the best player in the world. If the best player in the world is doing this, which by the way, like you said, he won't hurt because the guy's probably the most marketable guy in the N. Yeah.

[A]

Nike is. I mean, Nike. He's getting money. Yeah, like Nike, which is like a

[B]

luxury a lot of these guys don't have. I mean, not to say like Jalen Brunson isn't marketable. Also Jalen Brunson's thing, I think what enabled this sort of, if, if this is going to be remotely a trend is that they won like if.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If they don't win, like, we're probably looking at this a lot differently. And the scariest part of this is that like 50 million on the spurs books in that span is a difference maker. Like, they're really only one guy away right now from winning a title. Like, I can't imagine what, what they

[A]

were, they were in it. I mean like they could have easily had won 41 against the Knicks just now. So like, I think this is like a title level team. And I mean to your point, and they just started.

[C]

I. The, the one thing I'll say is Wemby Took the pay cut. Now Steph Castle will be pressured to do the same. Now Dylan Harper will eventually be pressured to do the same.

[B]

And by the way, I'm not sure, I'm not sure.

[C]

You don't think it'll apply the same.

[B]

I think the, I think Wy I imagine had those guys in mind when he made a decision.

[A]

It makes it so they don't have to make the future decision maybe between Castle and Harper.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Right. That down the road.

[C]

But you, you still, I mean look, we think Dylan Harper is going to be an all NBA player likely at some point. Maybe not in his rookie scale contract but like that possibility is there for him. Steph Castle might be an all NBA player at some point in his career like that. I think the escalators aspect is something that those players probably want to get also even beyond this was kind of the point I was trying to make. Even beyond the star players. Like you start to have this conversation with mid level guys with vet min

[A]

guys and this is actually the problem.

[C]

You want to win.

[A]

See. But this is the problem because Victor wyama taking a $50 million haircut off a $300 million contract is nothing. That's nothing. But a guy who's making 8 taking a $2 million pay cut to 6 is a massive amount of money.

[C]

Or like, or like sign for the vet men instead of the biannual exception.

[A]

Right. And see and that's where and shout out to the union that's their job is to speak up when, when these guys, when stuff like this is happening. When the ownership is pressuring guys to take less money than than the market would dictate.

[C]

And look, I, I know for sure there will be people watching this right now and saying you guys are complaining about NBA players who make millions of dollars.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Comfortable lives, et cetera, et cetera.

[A]

I think teachers should make millions of

[C]

dollars, $5 million less. I the point stands that these guys, the players themselves will lose out on money and the pressure. I thought the MBPA like did a great job of saying this. The pressure will now be on the players instead of it being on the owners and the team management to be able to one make better decisions. But also like that that should be their priority, not the players priority to make those type of decisions.

[B]

The pressure is on guys building teams now. I mean this extra 10 million you have on a book like dude, like I thought, I always thought San Antonio throughout this run was like a RUY away or like a PJ Washington was probably like would have been they're winning

[C]

a title, something at that position. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if he's like a 10 million or you're a guy. But maybe this is one of those ramifications. Like, okay, we, we got this extra 10. Like, would you, if you're in PJ's echelon, right, would you take 10? But I would, I, I want to believe the ramifications. Trickling down to core guys. I'll believe that when I see it. Now, I think the most pressure is on stars. Like, it's one thing when Chet and J Dub, guys like that are settling on that kind of deal. It's a whole nother thing when the best player in the world, right.

[A]

Doing it well, again, it's the precedent. And if Wimby does it, then management gets to go to those other guys and say, look, Wemby took a haircut, why don't you? I mean, there's an argument to be made that it could be good for teams. Certainly they're going to have more money, right? Like, but it's, it's ultimately bad for players. And even though the CBA guarantees, you know, 51% of basketball related income, like the players on aggregate are not going to make less money, but individual players, and we've talked about this quite a bit, like Steph Curry is worth more than his contract. LeBron has been worth more than his contract his entire career. As far as value that he brings to a franchise. Victor Wembanyama, I mean he may wind up being, you know, if we were to do the math, one of the most like valuable athletes ever because of the worldwide marketing and all this other stuff.

[C]

Look, I will, I will say just from like listening to his quotes and hearing him over the last couple years, he doesn't seem like a guy that is money motivated.

[A]

Well, yeah, I mean, he's not going to sell soda, right? Like, and I mean he's not going

[B]

to do the Sprite, he's not doing

[C]

a printer commercial like Shaq or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, that's not in his wheelhouse.

[A]

You mean Wendy's not going to have the, the steel buildings out all over Nevada at some point. I, I do think that it is an interesting dynamic because it especially, I think for fans, right. It plays into all the stuff that we love. Like, oh man, this guy just cares about winning. It's not just money, right? There's the passion is kind of getting in there and he wants to compete and all these other things.

[B]

That part is probably overblown I.

[A]

No, I actually, I disagree, man. I think fans do care about that.

[B]

No, I. I do. I do agree on that part. I think it's overblown. Using Wimby, Jalen brunching.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

With one B. Like. Like. Like you're saying, like, that's he's not

[A]

gonna be hurting, like, he's gonna make that money back.

[B]

He's a McDonald's partnership away from.

[A]

He could really do a wy sweet tomato.

[C]

He could do the backwards M. You

[B]

know, like balance partnership.

[C]

Wy or Whataburger. Wemby.

[B]

That would be my dream partnership.

[C]

A whataburger.

[B]

Yeah. What's the best fast food on earth?

[C]

I've never had whataburger. I'm not going to lie to you.

[A]

It's all right. You know, they.

[B]

They got Canadian right here.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, hey, what do you mean? Every time I come here, I try to have in n out. We just had in and out recently.

[B]

Yeah. It's not better than whataburger.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Whataburger here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even good here.

[C]

Like in this hotel on the Strip. Oh, yeah.

[A]

No, there's a Whataburger. Yeah. Yeah. We'll make a trip to. Welcome to the podcast. Okay. Before we get to the Bulls, Joel, I just like general summer league.

[B]

All right.

[A]

You've. You've been in the gym a bunch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anything stood out to you? Not non Bulls related, that of peaked your interest?

[B]

A lot of the overreactions. Either way. Either way.

[A]

Hey, okay. Summer league is four overreactions. It's overreactions and it's hope. Right. Every player could potentially be rookie of the year. I don't know if you saw my guy, Bruce Thornton looking good.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

What are you at? 27.

[A]

27.

[B]

Yeah. And the reaction I saw was re Shepher better learn Chinese. Like, this is what I mean.

[A]

I didn't say it's not one of the most outlandish. I didn't say it.

[B]

But like, it is like, people press that button so soon. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I do think, hey, Reed shepherd would be awesome on one of these, you know, Euroleague teams.

[B]

I think he would. I hear you. Caleb Wilson was like five points into his 35 point game, and people were like, kg's reborn. It's like, come on, man. He's the one on Twitter saying this stuff.

[A]

This is the guy.

[C]

I'm trying to keep us have a burner account.

[A]

Yeah, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not on Twitt at it.

[C]

All right.

[B]

We're.

[A]

We're going to Take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to talk, folks. Okay. So Caleb Wilson, man, he had a. He had a huge summer league debut.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many threes he had? Seven. Seven threes.

[C]

More than his.

[B]

It's as, it's as many as he.

[C]

Oh, as many in college in his

[A]

first, but they were off the dribble.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These are pull ups.

[B]

Very different than the ones he did.

[A]

I talked to a scout in the gym after that game and was told he didn't make that many in high school. Yeah, well, I don't know, maybe there's a hyperbole there.

[C]

I mean, I saw a quote where he said, I used to hit threes in high school, but I just never. Like, that wasn't his role.

[A]

Right.

[B]

From what I understand, every level he's been at and I think this was the thing at North Carolina. I mean, North Carolina, he'll admit to. He said this today at practice that North Carolina like, no shade to Hubert Davis, but kind of all shade to Hubert Davis. Like they ran Carolina break. Like they.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He was so dominant. He never had to do anything but score inside the arc. But that was what they did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was the way they use him anyway.

[C]

Also a lot of transition buckets.

[B]

Yes. And so like, I think the way he views his development is like the first thing he did as a kid was shoot. Like he, he. He had this green light growing up that maybe seized as he became just like insane athlete. And he got to North Carolina and they use him so differently because it is college basketball and that sort of thing comes with restraints. But I do believe, like that still does not explain what we saw the other night. Like, that was outlier shot making. Yeah, outlier.

[A]

Like he missed miss free throws, though. A lot of pressure on that one. One to make two free throw.

[B]

I mean, he would have had 40 if.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Free throws. But I do think, I do think the touch is there. Like the one thing that was true and scouts will tell you this, his touch on, on midis, like, he has certain shots where like, the touch is insane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he had a. I mean, I think we're in the Shay era. He had a bump midi that was like his second. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

He's got a little bit of a hitch, especially on that turnaround. Right. And it's not so much a hitch as it is. It's a two motion and slow.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. That's why I've always liked the Pascal Siakam comps, because his touch is nice. Like his, his finishing in that short roll area is n a nice floater. Like he just, again, he has, like, he displays good touch and so that kind of moves to the three point line as well, where he can kind of add that to his game. What about the person? Because I know you've got a chance to kind of get to know Caleb Wilson, the guy and I, I saw a video on YouTube, I recommend everybody do. It's like a kind of like a hype reel the Bulls created with building up to his first summer league game. And it's him in his draft room interview. It's him talking about how motivated he is. It's him talking to like Bulls legends and everything. And the player is great. The person also seems like he's destined to be great.

[B]

He's fascinating. I think he's going to be great based on like, how I've gotten to know him in a short time. He, he's very emotionally intelligent. He knows what he wants. He, he very much leans into the, like, I took that personal.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say he seems like he wanted to dominate and he's

[B]

very conscious of like the North Carolina Bulls pipeline and the proximity to Michael Jordan, which, by the way, like North Carolina has not had a lot of good NBA players in recent memory.

[A]

It's been a minute.

[C]

They used to have a great.

[B]

Of course it's been a minute at my point. And, and I think he's really leaning. Like he's wanted to be in Chicago for a long time. Like, I think he's, he thought this thing through. Like, he, he'll tell you in the pre draft process, he was not, he did not tune into mock drafts and like, listen to the consensus that said that he was the fourth best prospect, but he wanted to be in Chicago anyway, regardless of the projections. Because I think he really leans into wanting to change the culture and be the sort of catalyst of something that's built from the ground up. And I think he recognizes, like, yo, Chicago has not had a guy since D. Rose with a guy that, you know, stature. And he wants to be there. And by all means, like he told us Today, he's taking 2,000 shots a day. I can't verify that, but I wouldn't put it past him.

[C]

2000 is a lot.

[B]

It's a lot insane.

[A]

He's not chasing his own rebounds though,

[B]

guys, you know, fair enough. He's an insane worker. He is very conscious of the pressure of being Bryson Graham's first draft pick and leans into all that he's had. He's a, the Thing I'm tracking with him right now is his screensavers. The screensaver he's had since his surgery in the spring and.

[A]

You mean the lock screen on his phone?

[B]

The lock screen?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's him walking from North Carolina's bus to the Duke game because it was one of the last games he played. And he wanted to remember the feeling for the five months it took before he could play again. And he cried before the game the other night because.

[C]

Yeah, before his first summer league game

[B]

because he had, it was just, it was so much for him to wait five months and he had, he had July 10th circled on his.

[C]

I know this.

[A]

I did not know that he cried. That'd be like, you know, if a guy like, you know, you're gonna. You about to have a fight and a guy started crying. You did not want to fight that.

[B]

He's like, right. I'm so emotional because I know I'm about to whoop your ass.

[A]

Oh my God. I've seen that before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You do not want to fight that guy. Like Caleb Wilson. Maybe you don't want to play him. I mean, judging by that game, I was like, I was there for it by the way. Boozer looked good too. Wasn't like he. But they went at each other. And that's one of the things that stood out to me so far about this draft. Draft class and being a summer competitive. They are extremely competitive. And when you think about the pecking order of these guys, like he goes four and. And some of that, I mean we're going to find out, right? Like how interchangeable these guys are. Some of that I do think is what his perceived role coming into the league was. I didn't realize his, his handle and touch were this good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know the, the again you talk about seven pol, like seven made threes. That's. That's an aberration. Maybe. But the way it looked like he. That hang dribble into a pull up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That is like he's got some good guard skills.

[C]

Do you think the fact that he got injured, like was that part of him getting better at a shot?

[B]

No, I mean, I think he's been working. I wouldn't say it was like rooted in that. Like he's, he's been working hard to get back anyway. And I think he was working on the shot the whole time. Okay. He just wasn't used that way in North Carolina. But like to your point, like Peyton Watson, I watched him interact with Peyton Watson after the game. And Payton Watson was telling him like, yo, everything you did looked natural. Like, no, nobody did. Nobody in the gym thought you were doing stuff that was out of your.

[A]

He was bringing the ball up against pressure. I mean, I thought he did a really good job, like switching his hips and protecting the.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And then he was active and. And he was calling for the ball too, which, like, he would be in the corner. He would come up and kind of rise up to the wing, and he was calling for the ball, which. That's his job.

[B]

I mean, Lord knows they needed it like that. Yeah. Like, I. I applaud Thiago for this because they're getting experimental Dalen Swain, who's like, probably projected as like, a secondary playmaker in the league.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

They're playing him at point guards. He's an athlete and he's. He's getting guarded by such a coward and omax. And it's.

[C]

It's like testing his handle.

[B]

But it was a rude awakening. So, like, you saw that at times. Like, a lot of the stuff Caleb had to do, it's like we need.

[A]

He.

[B]

Even he was the pressure release. He's like, yo, it's dry. We. We need a bucket. He's saying that after the game, telling us that. So he's very conscious of all this. And I do think, I thought what was most encouraging for, like, his star potential is like, he made all these crazy shots, but, like his best attributes in the draft process, which is like his otherworldly athleticism and stuff, like, he never got to inject that into the half court offense.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's probably like the personnel around him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, he never. He never got to do the stuff he's best at. Like when he gets around Josh Gideon, some of these ball handlers, Norman Powell, who he could play off of. Yeah. I imagine the post stuff will come. He'll be a screener.

[C]

The transition stuff will be there.

[B]

Transition. He'll be able to be a lob threat. Like, there's so much that he just didn't get to show on Friday and he still came up with 35. Well, go ahead.

[C]

I was gonna say let's talk about the team.

[A]

That's what I was gonna say. So Thiago Splitter, new coach. Okay. How. How does he plug in to what Thiago Splitter wants to do?

[B]

Yeah, I think Thiago. Thiago's keeping a lot closer to Vest. He.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

He's like, very Spursian, which makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[B]

But I think he's very. The one thing I'LL say about Thiago is I think this is the first chance he's getting to really demonstrate what he wants a team to play like. Now I will say I don't think he's going to be so rigid to be like. I think he wants to play to the pieces he has. But like you look at his past stops as a head coach, Paris basketball, he inherited the bulk of that team.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they decided to play fast because he was playing as personnel.

[A]

Yeah. Well, they wanted him to play just like they had been playing.

[B]

And then, and then obviously in Portland that was not his team. Right. So you play to your strengths. You, you lean on to, to Denny, that sort of stuff. I think it'll be interesting. The, the lineups, it seems like they're going to run are very fluid. They got some good positional size, Safer, Bowleg, Norma, Pal. But like they're, I think they're going to be fun and I think the way they play Caleb and Modest will be very interchangeable. Very fluid. I don't know where you slot Noah Senge right now because I'm still trying to figure him out. But Thiago said like he could play three, four or five. I don't know if that's actually viable, especially the five.

[C]

No, definitely not.

[B]

But, but we'll see. It's, it's, it all seems very fluid right now.

[A]

But they got Nick Claxton. You know, you think about Claxton, Bouzelis, Caleb Wilson. That's a lot of interchangeability in your, in your front court. And giddy is not small. I mean, giddy's no big. They're going to rebound really well at times, sure. But, but he's, but he doesn't rebound. I mean, I think he's a really good rebound.

[C]

They're not even like that type of length. And we talked about Bryson Graham vision, like slap was the thing everybody was talking about for two months. But this team has a lot of length. They have a lot of size.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think they can play to that offensively. Defensively, it will be a work in progress. They're still very young. A giddy Norm Powell backcourt, you're not getting a lot of perimeter, point of attack stops.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I, I think ultimately they have a ceiling of at least being like a top 10 offense in the league if they tap into one. Giddy, his incredible transition ability. Gotta run Norm. As just like a release valve score.

[A]

Also his shooter in transition.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Very good at those pull up threes.

[C]

He's playing like the last Couple of years. He's been playing some of the best

[B]

basketball of his career and he's adaptable.

[C]

Do you, do you. Did you like the Norm Powell edition for them?

[B]

I think it makes sense, especially because, like, they don't want to really lock themselves. You saw this with the Zach Collins extension to the 1 and 1 where they got the team option.

[C]

And he's made, by the way, Zach Collins, can I just say this crazy, incredible stat. He's made a hundred million dollars in his career.

[B]

Yeah. I don't. I don't think the 1B decision is effective. I know what he's choosing. I know he's choosing to not play really like he. I don't even remember what he plays like, to be honest.

[A]

Zach Collins, no shade.

[B]

No shade. But that being said, like, true, like Bryson Graham wants to keep this sort of flexibility and Norman Powell is a guy to your point. He's played the best basketball and some of the most adaptable basketball these past couple seasons. There's going to be somebody who wants to pull the trigger on that, I imagine, come February. So they have that option.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or they can decide, well, we liked what you offered in year one and we're going to move off you year two. It keeps them flexible, but it also gives like Caleb is. It's pretty clear Caleb is the focal point of whatever they're right to build the defense stuff. Building a team. Defense is a slow burn, but the priority right now, it seems like how can you maximize the development in the short term of pros like Modest and Caleb and Norman Powell is that. I mean, he's very mature when you talk to him.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He seems like a great vet. He's had great vets.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To influence him. They don't really have anybody like that. And a lot on the court.

[A]

He's also going to have gravity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is going to make their life.

[B]

To be fair. They need more shooting.

[A]

Yeah. Like, they need guards.

[B]

He is a. If you can put shooting into one person and like shooting versatility, he's. He's perfect.

[C]

He can do it. And I think he's one of those guys, like, he doesn't necessarily need the ball to be able to create for other guys. Just because his gravity off pin downs and whatnot is like, that's his bread and butter. With Norm and with Giddy, you get offensive production. That I think makes Caleb Wilson's life a lot easier, makes Modest Brazil's life easier. And I think if you look at the forward vision moving, moving into the future, like those guys can facilitate development. Like Josh Giddey, his ability to be unselfish offensively at the very least, is going to give modest touches, is going to give Caleb Wilson easy looks, and that's a big win for Chicago.

[B]

And to the point of Norm, like, Norm, we talked to Norm at the hotel yesterday once the signing became official and he was like, look, because he knows, like, he's going to be one of the, like you said the release valves at the end of a game specifically because they don't have a lot of clothing types right now.

[A]

He'd be like, C.J. mcCollum was for the Hawks last year.

[B]

Sure. And, and, and he was like, yo, if Giddy has to close the game, like, I, I want to give them the opportunity. Or if it's going to be Caleb, like, he's, he. I think he's going to come off those opportunities. He seems very cognizant of the opportunity, the situation that his abilities he has while knowing, like he told us, like straight up, like, I wanted to make as much money as I could, but like, while I'm here, I looked at my options. I'm like, yo, I want to really lean into what this can be.

[A]

Well, also, being a good teammate as an older player is that prolongs your career. And so like going to Chicago and being like the vet to some young guys, that's pretty good. And like you said, that contract is good. It's movable at the deadline.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And teams are gonna. I mean, are you telling me that, like, let's say Denver couldn't find. Maybe they find a way. Right. Detroit is gonna need somebody, you know,

[B]

like, maybe these teams save in Detroit.

[C]

Hey, that's you. You tell me.

[B]

Yeah, he's not. But, but it was a good, it was a good move.

[C]

I, I like it. I will say Norm was also saying that he's the only 30 year old on the team, which I think is. It's important to have another.

[B]

Rob Dillingham needs Norman Powell, Trey Jones.

[C]

Trey Jones might be the, the other vet on this team.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

he's been around long enough.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. The $100 million. Don't, don't cash.

[A]

Just don't have three or four of those guys. You know what I mean? Like, like, like think about the Spurs. They had, you know, three old centers that they really couldn't play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's, that'd probably be a bad use of resources.

[B]

What a weird rotation. Last thing on him. Like, stylistically, like, I do think Norm alone with Nick Claxton. Like, I know some people were critical of the Claxton ad because I. He's. He hasn't been the player he was when Kyrie and those guys.

[C]

I think for where the Bulls are, he's great.

[A]

But also, I. I don't want to blame a guy who's been in the loser situation that the Brooklyn Nets franchise has been and say, oh, man, he's kind of had some down years. Yeah, maybe he's not as good. I need to see what it looks like when he's playing real basketball, because he hasn't. You know, it's a little bit like the Walker Kessler thing where he talked about being kind of jerked in and out of the lineup. Now, I will tell you, I think Nick Claxton was not very good last year. Right. Like, when he played even. And. But that team is so weird and awful. I don't. I can't hold it against him.

[B]

Brooklyn was straight rubbish. But I do.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Real basketball with whatever Chicago is going to be next year.

[A]

Okay. But they're. They're.

[B]

Wait, wait.

[A]

Let's actually do.

[C]

Let's ask that question. What is the expectation for the Bulls? Because, like, we've. We've talked about this for the last five weeks. The east is going to be much, much more competitive. It's going to be loaded. There's no nights off, really, in the Eastern Conference unless you're playing the Milwaukee Bucks and. Yeah, but. But either way, what do you think Chicago.

[B]

I do think they're going to be one of those teams that, like you, they catch you on a Wednesday night and, yes, they get on you for. For no reason.

[A]

Tiago did that last year with Portland.

[B]

Yeah. I think there may be, like, a low 30s team. Like, I know Chicago fans are, like, tired of, like, hovering in that middle,

[C]

but, hey, the new lottery form actually

[B]

makes it so they'll probably be in perfect position to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I do think this is probably a conversation for another day and probably with, like, a draft expert, but, like, we can't have the sickle conversation about, like, should they be trying to sit out in this top five so they can get. I don't know if y' all have seen the kid. Joaquin. Joaquin. That's in the. Yeah, that's who they need. This next draft is rubbish. It is bad.

[A]

Yeah, it's not very good.

[C]

But. But, like, I mean, you have, what, two more draft classes until then? No. One more draft class and then it's 20, 28. I think that you can toggle that line of being in the middle. If anything, these lottery reforms were made for teams like, like the Chicago Bulls that like to. To chill in.

[A]

You can almost say that, that definitely they had them in mind because what we. We've talked about this with the play in. Teams would get punished for trying to make the play in. Right. Like, and a lot of teams would just pull the plug. And we're not going to do that. We want to preserve our draft pick. And I do think that part of the. The lottery reform was definitely Chicago, Atlanta, you know, these sorts of teams that are consistently in the play in.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's the same. What if they got some decent players? You know, I mean, I think that that's definitely a part of.

[B]

Think it also is like the, the tanking and where they're going to be seated. Like, that's, that is still a front office directive and an ownership.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Directive. Like, yeah, you're not going to tell Caleb Wilson to go lose. Like, I do think that's going to be one of the separating factors. Like, that guy hates losing. Like, all he could say when. When, when the belief on the ground the other night was that he had the highest scoring debut of summer league history, which was quickly disproved. He was. He was like, we lost. Like, I don't care. We lost. So it's going to be hard to tell that guy. Convince that guy.

[C]

Like, lose.

[B]

Like, you're gonna have to take the. The tools out of his.

[A]

Did anybody point out that the Grizzlies were playing like multiple. Like NBA guys? That was.

[C]

They're also gonna be. They're gonna be right there in the middle with the, the Grizzlies.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

What? The Bulls?

[A]

Well, this is actually the thing. And, and you know, you covering the Bulls, like you're gonna be in the mix in the middle of this. You said they're going to win low 30s, man. I think there's going to be a lot of teams winning low 30s in the East.

[C]

Wait, actually, this would be a fun thought exercise to do with you.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[C]

Three teams are going to be the worst. They get relegated in the lottery reform. Okay, name the three worst teams in the NBA next season.

[A]

Milwaukee.

[C]

Milwaukee.

[A]

Okay, we'll see.

[C]

I think Milwaukee can be.

[A]

Their summer's not over yet.

[B]

I'd have to look at the standings. The pills have to be there, right?

[A]

But the pals have talent and a lot of their thing has been guys getting hurt.

[B]

Yo, he had this pulled out.

[A]

He's. He's ready.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

That stays ready.

[B]

It's Crazy. Because seeing. It's crazy to now see the Jazz at 15.

[C]

That's not the Sacramento, Sacramento, Sacramento in there.

[A]

If they end, part of it is if they do it right, and they just say, hey, Darius Acuff, take the keys.

[C]

But I don't think. I mean, they should avoid being relegated. Like, they need to.

[A]

They need draft picks. Yeah.

[B]

Charlotte.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because Charlotte took a step. Step down.

[A]

I don't think they're going to be one of the third worst.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'm looking at, like, Brooklyn, and Brooklyn's probably in that mix. But they also got Julius Randle.

[C]

They're trying to be 30, 30s, too.

[A]

Yeah, 30 feels like the bar that. That the teams are trying to clear.

[C]

It's tough. I think Milwaukee for sure. And also Milwaukee is incentivized to do it because they don't own their.

[A]

They don't own their pick.

[C]

They actually want to get relegated. They are going to lose to games and tank. I would say Milwaukee, Brooklyn, and probably is Dallas.

[B]

Sneaky.

[A]

We'll see. I mean, because, like, Kyrie's coming back.

[C]

They're also a team that doesn't have their pick next year.

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna say, it seems like they really are gonna try to win. I mean, you know, I think more teams are going to try to win than not.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But it does either way.

[C]

It won't be the Chicago Bulls. I don't think the Chicago Bulls will be one of the three worst.

[A]

I don't think so either. They got talent now where they just didn't before.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. And I. I mean, Joel, look. Modest Brazilis. What do you think about the year he had last year? And, like, when you're projecting him next year and you're thinking about his fit next to Caleb Wilson. Right. Like, how does that help his trajectory?

[B]

Yeah. I do think I was talking to somebody about this earlier about his potential shot diet, because Billy Donovan did like to put him in the corners, and he was like, a solid corner shooter. Like, I think there's obviously more to his game. I think that was what people were sort of yearning for. But it does become a little tougher with Caleb. Right. Like, you don't draft a guy like Caleb and he doesn't show off what he's showing off to not put the ball in his hands. And obviously he's going to be used as, like, a screener and all this other stuff. Like, you got to put the ball to Caleb's hands. Like, if I'm choosing between them, you got to put the ball on Caleb's. Hands.

[C]

Seems like. Seems like Caleb is also like malleable. Like accepting no for sure. Yeah.

[B]

And he's admitted as much and I, I think that is probably the goal. Like you, you want him to have this both on and off ball gravity, playing with the rim pressure, but also like using the touch and the tough shot making. Modest is an interesting one man. Because there's like the handle has not been there to give him like this sort of wing type wiggle. He can inject his athleticism in a half court sometimes.

[C]

Yeah. Good cutter.

[B]

Not all the time. Also a weird thing with the Bulls has been like they have not had good screeners which like maybe hurts Josh giddy because I don't think Josh Getty's ever played with a good screener as far as I can remember. So maybe Caleb will be that maybe he unlocks some wrinkles for them. What I had heard rumblings of when Thiago first got the job was that maybe they would try to use modest. Not completely like Denny, but like try to push him toward like more free throw attempt.

[C]

That is pretty interesting. Yeah, that's pretty interesting.

[B]

I don't, I don't know if that's going to. That's going to hold. True.

[A]

His athleticism makes sense.

[C]

Denny's handle. The reason Denny was able to do

[B]

what he did was it's not even close.

[A]

Also Denny's body like he's just thicker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Than modest.

[B]

A little bit. That allows him to do it. Caleb might be. You put him in Tiago's toolbox. You might have to start taking Caleb to the, to the free throw rate. The Shay workshop. Like that dude could get to the line.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Already.

[C]

It's true.

[B]

That's a superstar trait. Yeah.

[C]

100.

[B]

Let him cook. I think.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean I was. I mean you, you watched eight of them DebonSA. Right. Like one of the reasons why he looks so ready day one crazy is because he's attacking and, and getting to the line.

[C]

He's already getting Shea allegations.

[A]

Yeah. Well.

[B]

Which like should be a compliment. And I'm. And I'm. And I'm daring fan club. I'm Daring fc. But man, aj, the amount of times he got to the free throw line, I'm like, dude, how is this guy not going to be a top 15 player in the next he's three years.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, so Caleb Wilson project him. Is he gonna win the rookie of the year?

[B]

I think he has a good chance. Just because Washington, while they should put the ball in AJ's hands and that's like, why else would you draft him? They are doing this weird thing where they're talking about like, oh, Trey Young's gonna be off the ball. We'll see how viable this actually is.

[A]

We've been saying this forever. Yeah, yeah, we. I've not refused to believe it. That's not happening.

[B]

Darren. While he'll have the ball a ton, they have like different expectations there now. Like they're actually trying to win. Winning does alter the scope of these things usually.

[A]

Also, I think he can play better, a little. A little bit off the ball compared to Keonte.

[C]

Yeah. I do think, like the usage is there for Caleb to, to just take the Rookie of the Year. I will also say like a cuff is an interesting candidate because he will also have the ball in his hands a lot.

[B]

I hate that take.

[C]

Why?

[B]

I don't like that take.

[C]

You don't like or you don't like the fact that he might.

[B]

Well, I don't, I don't. I don't want to.

[A]

You're not knocking. You don't like the Rookie of the Year?

[B]

I'm not, I'm not a, A cup, Stan.

[A]

Sure. But I mean I think he's.

[C]

But the fact that he has.

[B]

They're gonna lose a ton where like I don't think he'll ever be considered is.

[C]

Is losing or winning environment.

[B]

Sacramento level certainly does not make you a kid.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

That's a fair.

[C]

Yeah. Last Rookie of the year who was for the Sacramento Kings was what? Tyreek Evans, I think. Right?

[A]

I think sounds about right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Caleb, will. I think the Bulls like, like we talked about, I think they are somewhere in that 30, 32 win range.

[C]

They'll be one of those annoying teams you got to play on the second night of back to back.

[B]

Yeah. Out of 10, how stunned would you be if the top two candidates for rookie of the Year in March are Caleb Wilson and Cam Boozer?

[A]

Well, I wouldn't be shocked at all because of position on the team. Well, you mentioned like in, in Washington, debona is going to be. There's a lot of mouths to feed there. Right. If ad's healthy, he's going to touch

[C]

the ball a lot too.

[A]

And same with Utah and, and Caleb Wilson, I mean if the Bulls do things right, he's going to be their highest usage player.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Period.

[B]

And if they get 35 wins, I

[C]

think that's, that's the, that's the threshold.

[B]

Yes. It can't be worse than 30 wins. Like you gotta. That can't be your Case in the

[C]

modern NBA, you have to win at least 30 wins.

[B]

That might kind of take Cam Boozer out of it, especially because, like, I think people want him to be sexy, and he's just. His game is just not sexy. It's very polished.

[C]

I will say, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That I. Cam Boozer plays a very analytically friendly game. And so, like, there will be the on offs, vorps, whatever.

[A]

It's an eye test friendly game.

[B]

We only do that with mvp.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's. It's an eye test friendly game.

[C]

Little. Little dpm, Little EPM for. For rookie of the year.

[A]

No.

[C]

Maybe me. Okay.

[A]

Boozer doesn't explode off the charts. Like. Like, Caleb Wilson stood out physically, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And Cam, he looks like a guy that could have already been in the league seven years that they dropped in the summer league. I mean, you saw him. He. He. He picked that ball handler, like, at mid court.

[B]

Caleb?

[A]

No, Cam Boozer. Oh, yeah, he picked Caleb. Yeah. I can't remember who it was. Thank you. And, you know, he gets. I thought that, like, he really controlled the game a lot for Memphis, and a lot of it was, you know, oh, okay, I'm gonna throw this pass. I'm gonna move here. But he. I thought he was pretty good. I. I think Memphis could win 30 games.

[C]

I was gonna say, I think Memphis might be a candidate for bottom three.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

I'm closer to that than. Than your stance.

[A]

Yeah, we'll see. I mean, a lot of it's going to be, is Zach Edie healthy? Because. Yeah, if so, they're big.

[B]

Like, they.

[A]

They're gonna reap again.

[C]

I do like beef stew for them, though.

[A]

Yeah, I think they've got some guys, but guard play is really what's gonna determine both of these teams, so. Okay. Anything else on the Bulls before we, you know, had out of summer?

[B]

Do we want to get nerdy and talk like Dale and Swain?

[C]

Listen, I. I've done my Dylan Swain caping on this podcast for, like, the last month. I like him.

[B]

Really?

[C]

I like him a lot. I thought he was. He's probably the second best ball handler in the class. He didn't get a chance to show that in the summer league game. And I think, oh, I saw the

[B]

athleticism, though, but I pressed full court.

[C]

They pressed for court.

[B]

Pros on him. Yeah, it was a rude awakening, which is good.

[C]

I. I think that's, like, healthy for him. I'm very curious to see how. Because rim finishing was one of the things that. That is his talent. How that looks at an NBA level. You know, I think the shooting is a big question for him. Naturally, like the off the catch stuff is something that he has to develop. But I like Swain a lot. I think, I think that's a good pick for them. And he leans into the size, length, athleticism.

[A]

Who's the point guard? Is it just giddy and, and they'll figure out it's going to be giddy is the primary ball handler and everyone else revolve around.

[B]

I don't, I don't know if there's going to be a whole lot of Rob Dylan.

[C]

Okay, fair enough. Rob with the shifts.

[B]

I'll leave with this. How long before we get the the clips of Colin Cowherd to say Caleb Wilson's here? LeBron, we're good.

[C]

We're good.

[A]

Joel Lorenzi, Go read him at the Athletic covers, the Bulls covers, the Thunder. Great podcast guest. Thank you buddy for hanging out.

[B]

My dog. Oh my.

[A]

Get out of here. For Esperani and Joel Lorenzi, I'm Dave Dufour and this is Ben the NBA Daily from Summer League Deal or no Deal Edition. Thanks for waking up with us. Thanks for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed it, drop a, like leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us.