Wemby's Heel Turn? + Game 6 Preview

Summary

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The Athletic NBA Daily – "Wemby's Heel Turn? + Game 6 Preview"

Date: May 28, 2026
Hosts: Zena Keita, Dave DuFour, Esfandiar "S" Baraheni

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Athletic NBA Daily dives into the aftermath of Game 5 in the Thunder-Spurs series, exploring Victor Wembanyama’s surprising media absence, the impact of officiating and fatigue, adjustments from both teams, and a preview of Game 6. The hosts also discuss the All-NBA and All-Defensive team selections and the implications for players like Scottie Barnes. The episode closes with thoughts on Joe Mazzulla's Coach of the Year award and coaching trends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wemby's “Heel Turn”: Media Absence & Maturity

(02:31 – 12:36)

• Topic: For the first time in his pro career, Victor Wembanyama skipped his postgame media obligations after the Spurs’ loss in Game 5, despite just winning the Magic Johnson Award for media cooperation.
• Analysis:
  • The hosts consider Wemby’s age and emotional maturity, noting that even the most “media polished” stars have moments where emotion runs high (04:56).
  • “As mature as we want him to be, he still is 22 years old. This is the greatest adversity that he's faced in his basketball career so far. … It's understandable.” – S, (04:56)
  • The act drew criticism, but all agree it doesn’t signal a character flaw—more youthful inexperience and emotional investment:
    • “He's never struck me as an inauthentic person... that authenticity can kind of go both ways.” – Dave, (07:13)
  • The league gave Wemby a warning rather than a fine. Hosts think this is the right response (09:13).
• Broader Take: The segment segues into a discussion of NBA postgame media requirements, debating whether the immediacy and transparency required of NBA stars is unique compared to other professions (10:14).

2. Spurs’ Mental & Physical Fatigue – Officiating and Physicality

(12:45 – 21:04)

• Stephon Castle’s Comments: Spurs rookie Steph Castle openly complained about OKC’s physicality and the officiating, an unusual move given his own physical play. This, the hosts argue, reflects the team’s frustration and youth (14:20).
• Officiating Consistency:
  • Both teams’ fans were frustrated with the massive free throw disparity (70 FTs) and what was perceived as changing standards (“Every game, each officiating crew…is gonna call things a little bit differently.” – S, (15:21)).
  • Game 5 “was probably the worst watch of any game in the series” due to the officiating, according to S (17:05).
• Fatigue: The crew discusses how being “a step late” leads to fouls and sloppiness. Julian Champagnie admitted, “They had more energy than we did” (19:18).
• Wemby’s Endurance:
  • Spurs’ overreliance on a young Wembanyama, who is showing the limits of his stamina in the longest season of his life, is a growing concern:
    • “It’s not the 40 minutes a night I’m worried about…It’s the 80 minutes in 72 hours that it seems like his body can’t handle. He’s good every other game.” – S, (19:52)
    • “He’s going to be scary at 25 when he’s got that 15 round endurance. But right now…there is a limit for Victor Wembanyama.” – S, (20:54)

3. Thunder’s Adjustments: Chet Holmgren Steps Forward

(22:39 – 27:35)

• Chet Holmgren’s Aggressiveness:
  • After criticism for previous performances, Chet responded: “Well, I couldn’t afford not to be aggressive…so I had to go forward and see what happens.” – Paraphrased/Referenced by Zena, (22:39)
  • “Chet Holmgren right after this game talked about ego and not having ego…you kind of need to have an ego in certain moments...I thought he did an incredible job of looking confident to start this game because they didn’t get enough out of Shea.” – S, (23:37)
• Isaiah Hartenstein’s Role:
  • Hartenstein’s ability to push Wemby out of effective help defense positions made a significant difference for the Thunder.
  • “His ability to just move Wemby a few feet this way and a few feet that way has made it so that…the driving lanes are a little more open.” – Dave, (25:16)
• Team Chemistry:
  • Thunder’s unselfish locker room culture allows Chet and others to recover from tough games.
    • “The safety of that locker room seems to be pretty solid. He can make mistakes. He can fail.” – S, (27:08)

4. Game 6 Preview – What Decides It?

(27:35 – 34:42)

• Key Question: What’s most crucial for OKC to win Game 6? Consistent Chet? Another Hartenstein impact? Bench production? Or a “Shai Game”?
• The Debate:
  • S: Believes it must be a classic Shai Gilgeous-Alexander takeover, as OKC hasn’t had a signature Shai performance in this series (28:44).
    • “It’s time for Shay to go and close the door. That’s it. If they’re going to close it out in Game 6, Shay has a huge game.” – S, (32:47)
  • Dave: Contradicts, saying the Spurs’ defense has been elite on Shai; it will require the bench and role players like Caruso, McCain, and Williams to step up (30:03–31:33).
    • “I think it’s Caruso…I think it’s Jalen Williams, I think it’s Jared McCain just knocking down enough [shots].” – Dave, (30:03)
  • Zena: “It’s Chet needing to show up…even a 13 point game, he has to be consistent two nights in a row.” (33:13)
• Prediction:
  • Both Dave and Zena predict the series will go to Game 7; S is unsure if the Spurs can bounce back after the last defeat (33:57–34:42).

5. All-NBA & All-Defensive Teams: Notable Snubs

(34:41 – 39:55)

• Scottie Barnes’ All-Defense Snub:
  • S provides an impassioned defense for Scottie Barnes, arguing data and game impact say he deserved First Team All-Defense:
    • “He finished 5th in DPOY voting but did not finish top five in all-defense voting—that’s just a huge blind spot for whatever these voters were.” – S, (37:14)
  • Some on the voting panel left Barnes off their ballots entirely; hosts agree it’s a bewildering gap.
• All-NBA Structure & Voting Logic:
  • Voter transparency; positionless vs. positions controversy. A recent voter left Wemby off the first team to avoid disrespecting past era bigs; the hosts are divided (39:41–40:48).
• Other Notes:
  • Shout-out to Kevin Durant, now the only player to make All-NBA with five different teams (39:22).

6. Coach of the Year: Joe Mazzulla

(41:13 – 44:51)

• Joe Mazzulla wins COY:
  • Hosts agree he squeezed the most from the Celtics despite postseason disappointment.
    • “He calls every play, every play. He coaches every play.” – S, (42:05)
  • Hosts suggest Mazzulla needs to experiment more during the regular season to be ready for playoff curveballs: “Fastball is great, but you need something else.” – S, (44:51)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Wemby’s Emotional Growth:
  • “We are already calling him the best player in the world. But if this was, let’s say, SGA…this would be different story.” – Dave, (08:03)
• On Chet’s Breakthrough:
  • “His lack of ego can either be a hindrance or it could be something that’s a benefit to him.” – S, (23:37)
• On Team Exhaustion:
  • “It’s the 80 minutes in 72 hours that it seems his body can’t handle.” – S, (19:54)
• On All-Defense:
  • “He led the NBA in clutch time blocks…game-saving blocks, very important.” – Zena, (37:49)
• Role Player Importance:
  • “Can you rely on [the role players]? At some point that carriage is turning back into a pumpkin. … So often it’s about that guy [the star].” – S, (31:39)
• Final prediction energy:
  • “We deserve Game 7. I’m entitled.” – Dave, (33:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Wemby Skips Media & Reaction: 02:31 – 12:36
• Physicality, Officiating, and Fatigue: 12:45 – 21:04
• Thunder Adjustments (Chet & Hartenstein): 22:39 – 27:35
• Game 6 Preview & Debate: 27:35 – 34:42
• All-NBA, All-Defense, and Voting: 34:41 – 39:55
• Coach of the Year Discussion: 41:13 – 44:51

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, analytical, and slightly irreverent, punctuated by the hosts’ good-natured back-and-forth and a focus on media, locker room dynamics, and the human element behind the numbers. Frequent asides demonstrate a deep affection for the nuances of basketball culture.

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Summary Takeaway

In their May 28 episode, The Athletic NBA Daily team provides a lively, multifaceted look at the playoff series between the Thunder and Spurs, centering on the evolving storylines of Wemby’s leadership and limits, OKC’s adjustments, and the unpredictability of youth and exhaustion. They preview what each team needs to advance, discuss the politics and surprises of All-NBA and All-Defense voting, and celebrate (with caveats) Joe Mazzulla’s COY win. The episode is essential listening for fans tracking not just results, but the forces shaping NBA narratives.

Transcript

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[Zena Keda]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for May 28, 2026. I'm Zena Keda, joined by Dave DeFore and Esperhini. And coming up, what will the Thunder do to close out Game six and get to the NBA Finals? And do the spurs have just enough in the tank to make it to Game seven? Also, you've got some well baked thoughts around the all NBA teams. Good morning y'. All. How y' all doing?

[Esperhini]

Not bad. I can't be the only One that hums the theme song in my head during the intro.

[Dave DeFore]

I kind of do that, too.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, I kind of do that, too.

[Esperhini]

It's so catchy, you know, especially when

[Dave DeFore]

you have to, you know, host as we've sat in your seat before in the past.

[Esperhini]

Think about the rhythm, right?

[Zena Keda]

It's the horns. You called it when it all started, Dave. The horns get did.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. One day when they make a documentary about us. They will.

[Zena Keda]

They will be.

[Esperhini]

They be like horns. Right. Dave in like 2011 thought, you know, basketball coverage just needs more horns. Can we make it seem like you're at a Chicago concert when you're listening to something basketball related? Anything. I don't care. The theme song, the old cbs, NBC theme song, or NBA theme sports. Yeah, we need. Yeah, Everybody should want more horns and everything.

[Zena Keda]

If you have not caught on by now. Yes. Dave DeFore was a Bulls fan growing up, so I will know, right?

[Esperhini]

That's right.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, let's talk a little bit about this game that happened the other night that is setting up the scene for tonight's game. Yeah, Game five. You guys broke it down with Andrew Schlett on site with all these kids in the background. They were hoofing, they were having a great time. It felt like everyone was pretty pleased with the way that the Thunder walked away with that win. It was a dominant win. Of course, it felt like the spurs kept having something in the tank. I, you know, I'm still thinking back to the, like, I don't know, glory road type huddle that the spurs had with Wemby in the middle, like, trying to invoke something in them. And it worked for a little bit. You know, there was a little bit of a push, but ultimately the Thunder were able to walk away. Wemby, who won this year's Magic Johnson Award for the Professional Writers Basketball association as being the most cooperative with the media.

[Dave DeFore]

I voted for him.

[Zena Keda]

Skipped media. Oh, okay.

[Esperhini]

Wow.

[Zena Keda]

Skipped media for the first time. Do you want your vote back? No, I'm joking. But he skipped media for the first time all season. He was not pleased. And I'm curious.

[Esperhini]

I guess we don't know Xena, right? We don't know if he was pleased or not. That's the thing.

[Dave DeFore]

He could have been super happy and be like, I don't want to talk,

[Zena Keda]

or really, really focused.

[Esperhini]

Right.

[Zena Keda]

Would you. Where'd you guys land with that, actually?

[Esperhini]

All right, look, I'm not gonna be. It doesn't affect my job, so it's hard for me to have. Too hard of A take on it. It does affect a lot of other folks jobs, including Victor Womenyama. Like this is actually part of what you've signed up for. And I just will say this without going too harsh on a 22 year old and I've never done this right. Like this happens quite often. As mature as we want him to be, he still is 22 years old. This is the, the greatest adversity that he's faced in his basketball career so far. And it's legit. He's two games like two wins away from the finals and now they're only one loss away from going home. So for him to be a little bit emotional or maybe even scared to be emotional out loud, like worried that it might get away from him and to skip media. Understandable. But came out after game one, he was very happy to be there. Game four, he gave us that little smirk. Hey, we figured something out and I'm sorry man, but like part of this, and this is going to be part of his growth process. Part of this is that when the chips are down, you got to sit and you got to answer those questions. You know, you got to go in and, and he has been so thoughtful. I mean, you guys were with me at the NBA cup and you were sitting behind me. I'm, I'm enamored with this guy. Right. It's, it's obvious he puts a lot of thought into his questions. And, and part of that could also be, you know, he's, he wants to be very clear in English when he's, when he's responding. Okay. So I, so maybe that's it. But I also think that he genuinely does try to answer the questions thoughtfully. So I, I'm a fan of, of the way that he conducts himself. I think this is a bad look, but I'm assuming this is going to be a one time deal. I don't think that this is going to be, you know, hey, he's going to be a sore loser or any of the things that I've kind of seen thrown around today. I, I will also note that

[Zena Keda]

this

[Esperhini]

is, this is a young, young, young team and he has assumed this leadership role on the team. So I imagine that, you know, he's taking it pretty hard the way that they didn't have any energy, the way they didn't come out. But he should have been at the, he should have answered questions after the game, period.

[Dave DeFore]

If you look back at the career and history of Victor Wembanyama, he's taken losses pretty hard on almost every stage like U18 losing a chat. Holmgren, his reaction, you can search up on yout losing, obviously, in the Olympics to Stefan. Those guys. His reaction, you can obviously see, like, winning matters so much to this guy. And to your point about the emotional aspect, that I think that's absolutely true. He's never struck me as an inauthentic person. And so sometimes that authenticity can kind of go both ways. But I will say, and this is kind of to counter my argument, if you will, that at the same time, if this was another player. And I agree, we as the NBA are enamored by Victor Wembanyama. We are already calling him the best player in the world.

[Esperhini]

Sure.

[Dave DeFore]

We are all already saying this guy's the face of the league. But if this was, let's say, sga.

[Zena Keda]

Okay.

[Esperhini]

But this would be different story, different stages of their career. And I think we got to give him one. You give him one.

[Zena Keda]

Wait, wait, wait. Time out, Time out. What would be the different story?

[Esperhini]

Well, I think Shane would get a lot of criticism and. And the way.

[Dave DeFore]

Even really hard.

[Esperhini]

Even the way that I would go at him would be different. But I do think that. Look, you give him one. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Even not Shay. Like, I. I only picture Shay because obviously they're facing off against each other.

[Esperhini]

Skipped media. And he was rightfully roasted. And Wimby is being roasted a little bit too. And I do think it's rightful. Right. Like, he should be roasted. But I don't think that this is some sore loser stuff. I. I think that it's more youth and inexperience.

[Zena Keda]

I mean, he's not getting on Twitch and calling out. That's right. Yeah.

[Esperhini]

He's not trying to start a fight with me on Twitch. Right.

[Zena Keda]

But what do we make?

[Esperhini]

Let's have a beef.

[Zena Keda]

What do we make of. And again, this is again, the first time that he's done this.

[Esperhini]

Yes.

[Zena Keda]

All season. And that we know of in his

[Dave DeFore]

first time ever in his career.

[Zena Keda]

Ever. Right, exactly. The NBA issues a warning, not a fine.

[Esperhini]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Persan Charania and I feel like that distinction matters. I think it feels as if the league is kind of being like, we see you don't do it again, but it's cool. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

I perfectly fine with that.

[Zena Keda]

Is that fair?

[Esperhini]

Yeah, I think that's.

[Dave DeFore]

That's entirely fair. I don't. I don't think I throw the hammer down at Victor. I don't think that makes sense.

[Esperhini]

If they lose game six and he doesn't do media, we're going to hammer him.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, exactly.

[Esperhini]

Losing game Five and not doing media again, criticism totally warranted. I don't think this is some sort of a character flaw. I'm not, you know what I mean, not willing to let it diminish my opinion for sure.

[Zena Keda]

I'm, I'm with you as well. And I think, if anything, I feel like he's, he might have gotten lost in the sauce of refocusing for the next game. He ends up in that game with only 20 points, six rebounds, one assist, 0 for 5 from 3. He's probably more devastated with his own performance than we could ever be, than anyone else could probably.

[Esperhini]

Those are the nights we need you to sit there though.

[Dave DeFore]

Can I actually, you know what, Dave? I'm glad you brought that up because I actually was thinking about this earlier and maybe I saw it on Twitter, maybe I didn't, I was just thinking about this. Is there any other job in the world outside of professional sports and the NBA where right after you finish the job, you have to do a post game press conference, discuss every single aspect of your game? I, I, I do.

[Esperhini]

I guess if you're like, like in a public law situation, you know, lawyers,

[Dave DeFore]

things like that, maybe.

[Esperhini]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, I see that in certain situations, sure. Do you guys feel as if the post game press conference or maybe, maybe that element. And by the way, I agree with you that it is essential to certain people's jobs in this industry to have that immediate access, good for the sport. But just is there a different way to do it so that a guy doesn't have to spill his most reactionary stuff? Even though they don't for the most part, they're very media trained.

[Esperhini]

So I have no problem with it. I think it's such low stakes and the money, like this is part of what the money is for and that is marketing for their league. Like, there's a lot of ways in which this works, but you know, the folks that are doing the journalism that are covering the teams, I mean, these post game press conferences are an opportunity for the, for the athletes to speak for themselves. Right. So often we're just given analysis and, and they can, like we can be accused of, we don't know, blah, blah, blah. Well, this is a chance for them to explain themselves. So it is, I, I think it's a good thing for everyone. It's, it's only worked out well for the NBA to be covered in this way. And again, it's a, it's a one off. I'm not too worried about it. I, I do, I do think that this will be we got a taste of what it's going to look like when people start to turn on Wemby. It always happens. It happens with every great player.

[Dave DeFore]

It happens with every single player.

[Esperhini]

And so I think we saw a little bit of that in. In the aftermath of him skipping the media, but also it's out of character for what we know about him. He's been a dog and he's been so mature and he's owned his mistakes and he's faced the music. And he, you know, he talked after a loss about how he wasn't making his teammates better after their. After their previous loss. So, you know, again, I. We're going to throw this one out the window. I'm going to say he's getting the warning from us.

[Dave DeFore]

It's incredible. This is how, you know, he's the face of the league and the future of everything that we're talking about.

[Esperhini]

10 minutes talking about him not talking minutes on that.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, this is kind of crazy. I wish I was going to get us, but you had some good takes. He has some good takes, and I think it's important to get them all now. Let's. Let's shift it then to his teammate who did do media and took his time in his media presser to say that it was a luxury how OKC was allowed to be physical and to guard. And I thought this was particularly interesting. You guys covered this a little bit the other night, but Stephon Cassle comes out and calls out okc, calls out the refs, and there were a lot of questions about this game and the refs, which you guys also called out the fact that there were 70. 70 free throw shot between both teams. But this was an interesting take and that we don't. I'm not gonna lie. For me, I was actually surprised to hear from Stefan Castle, specifically because of how I have seen him bodying up. And I'm not saying this in a negative way, in a positive way, imposing his physicality and his will on the perimeter, particularly even when he gets opportunities up against Shay. And so I was. This is weird. Usually when you are doing something that could also be potentially looked at as a luxury, you stay quiet so that you don't bring attention to it. You don't put a spotlight on it. And so I thought that was very fascinating that he would do that, bring attention to it, because I feel like now, inevitably the reps are going to be like, oh, you don't like physicality? You think it's a luxury. Okay. Beep. You can't do that. You can't, you can't use your lower body. You know what I mean?

[Esperhini]

In my opinion, you know, I think that this is where the, the youth and inexperience like it, it's coming out now. And part of it is the way that the Thunder adjusted to the whistle. If you notice, they just, they got a little less physical and the spurs never turned it down. And you have to know that in the first half, in the first half, it was pretty even as far as the, the fouls went. And I don't know what the conversation was in each locker room, but it certainly seems like the Thunder, hey, one of the emphasis for the second half, we gotta, gotta dial it back a little bit. And the spurs just, they, they didn't do it. You know, the, the stuff that Castle was getting called for, the stuff that, that Champagne was getting called for, Kelton Johnson, it is stuff that they've gotten away with in this series. But you weren't in the game. So each game, each, each officiating crew, much to my chagrin, is gonna call things a little bit differently. And this crew, I don't think that they had called a game in this series yet.

[Dave DeFore]

They had not. They were.

[Esperhini]

You think about, right, you think about it. They're coming into an elevated physicality situation where you've got four games under your belt playing a certain style and the whistle was blowing. And so again, this is why veteran teams just, they adjust better. And I think what we saw out of the Thunder last night or the night before is exactly that. That's one of the ways in which experience shows up your ability to take on the coaching, not just to, to, you know, for the coaching staff to say, hey, we're going to change it, but you actually have to adapt to the, to the changes in the game. And I, I think the Thunder did a great job of that. And it was a difference in the game for the, for the Spurs. Their inability to adjust to the whistle took them out of it mentally too.

[Dave DeFore]

Absolutely.

[Esperhini]

You know, you think about those bad calls and Mitch Johnson gets a, gets a technical foul and they, I don't feel like they ever really recovered from that between the ears.

[Dave DeFore]

You talk about the inconsistency of officiating. Well, it's good to know that Adam Silver just said that the, the NBA is now going to be incorporating AI into their officiating. So that means, oh, Allen Iverson, awesome.

[Esperhini]

No, it's going to be completely another guy who knows ball out there.

[Dave DeFore]

It's, it's going to Be foolproof. Nobody. There will be no mistakes, of course. Right. Anyways, I will say to that point about inconsistency. I think that is what is making fans from both sides really angry because you don't know on any given night what kind of officiating you're going to get. And so some of the conversations I've had with spurs fans and Thunder fans has been, you do not know what kind of whistle it's going to be on any given night.

[Esperhini]

Game 5 was Crips and Bloods coming together against the officials. It was, it was really amazing. Like the. Tied the bandanas together because it was, it was such an aberration to the rest of the series. I, I don't know about you guys. I mean, we've. We've talked pretty much every day during, during the playoffs. We pretty much talk every day during the basketball season. This series was perfectly officiated, in my opinion. I thought the first four games, that's what we want. I want the, the physicality. I want these guys getting grabbed a little bit. I don't, you know, I want to see teams being desperate to win. I, of course, I don't want to see blatant fouls and, and there's been plenty of those that have been missed. But I, I thought game five was not in the spirit of what this series had been from an officiating standpoint. It was a worse, it was probably the worst watch of any of the games in the series as far as just watching the game before we get

[Dave DeFore]

was pretty tough, I will say.

[Esperhini]

25 minute third quarter. Yeah. Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Before we go to break, I want to ask though, is it because was that game tough to watch and maybe the officiating started to look a little lopsided towards the end of that game because one team got tired? Right. Julian Champagne said that. He said that in his presser. I thought they wanted the game more than we did. We were a step late to a lot of stuff tonight. That is, you can look at that statement and look at some of the things on offense. Right. But if you're autobound, if you're also noticing this about your team, that you're a step late, that you're tired and, and he's saying it's not an excuse, but he's just there, that's what he's acknowledging. You're tired, you're much more likely to make mistakes and, and to be sloppy in a way that you might not think. You think you're playing the same way that you played.

[Esperhini]

You start Gardening so much more with your hands.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

You've been a lot more handsy.

[Zena Keda]

You get more handsy. You think you're moving your feet, you're not moving your feet. You think you're, you're, you're guarding with your, your body even and you're leaning on folks, right? Like these things happened over fatigue. Do we all. Do you know, what are your thoughts on that observation?

[Esperhini]

That, I mean, that definitely tracks. And again, like shout out to Julian Champen for actually just admitting, hey, they had more energy than we did.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, I think it showed up in Wemb big time. You know, like, I mean, guys, you

[Esperhini]

could see that there's a big conversation to be had around Wimy and if the spurs don't make it to the finals, I think we'll probably have this conversation really soon. But you know, we talked a lot about his minutes coming into the playoffs, how he didn't really play, you know, 40 minutes in a game very often. And we're getting to a scenario where he has to play 40 minutes every night because they fall apart when he's

[Dave DeFore]

off every other night too. Right.

[Esperhini]

Well, now it's not the 40 minutes in a night that I'm worried about with him. It's the 80 minutes and 72 hours that it seems like his body can't handle. He's good every other game and with the physicality and with the, the pace of this series and just, you know, again, it's not a lot of travel. You know, Oklahoma City to San Antonio is not a big flight, but every single step along the way does seem to be wearing him out quite a bit. And the guy is kind of unprecedented physically in the NBA. He's seven and a half feet tall, but you look at the way he moves, how much ground he covers on both ends of the court. I just, you know, we just haven't ever seen this before. So I think like a lot of us, Wemby is kind of figuring out what his limits are too. The longest basketball season of his life is happening right now and I think we're seeing his physical limits as a 22 year old. Now. He's going to be scary at 25 when he's got that 15 round endurance. But right now we are seeing, you know, there is a limit for Victor women. Yama and I do think it's that, that endurance.

[Zena Keda]

Well, there is a limit to the first half of this show. So we're going to take a break real quick and come right back to break the rest of this down.

[Esperhini]

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[Zena Keda]

Okay, let's keep this going because we didn't even really touch much on the OKC side of things. And the big story I think came down to Chet just being more aggressive. And I love what Andrew called out about him being asked post game what led to this change in demeanor. And he was like, well, I couldn't afford to not be aggressive and it hadn't worked out for me to not be aggressive in these previous games. So I had to go forward and see what happens and deal with whatever happens. And I thought it was significantly better him taking those shots, him looking for his shot. He still didn't get the number that I think we all would want somebody at his caliber to have. But you know, s I'll start with you, like when you look at some of the adjustments that Chet made to be more aggressive. And then I'll, you know, toss in Isaiah Hartenstein as well, the two of them, to kind of change the tides for OKC in this game.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, he chat Holmgren right after this game talked about ego and not having ego. I wonder if it was a shot. I don't know if it was, but he Talked about how his lack of ego can either be a hindrance or it could be something that's a benefit to him. You know, he's not necessarily asking for a ton of usage or a ton of shots, but at the same time, you kind of need to have an ego in certain moments to demand the ball, to take the shots in certain moments. I thought he did an incredible job of looking confident to start this game because they didn't get enough out of Shea. They were searching for offense basically from anywhere, and Chet was the guy that was keeping them in this one as Shea started to round into shape in that second quarter. So that's what they need from him, and honestly, that's what they have been getting all season, is a guy who was looking more confident offensively, could create his own shot, was figuring out ways to impact the game offensively, even outside of being set up, you know, spoon fed opportunities. That's what they need from Chet, not only if they want to win this series, but if they want to win the finals. Because I think, you know, guys like Kat and Mitch Robinson, you need to put pressure on those guys defensively. The way to do that is to have a guy like Chet be as aggressive as possible on the offensive side of the ball. And Hartenstein, Dave, we talked about this last night, but his ability to just move Wemby a few feet this way and a few feet that way has made it so that. All right, now the driving lanes are a little bit more open. OKC is a little bit more relentless at attacking Wemby because he's now shifting as they attack. So they might be able to cause a couple of foul situations. Caruso had one.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

If you guys remember where he bumped Wemby, hit him in the shoulder, got that foul call. Like, there's. There's a lot of moments where as long as you can shift Wemby one way and force him to. Force him to guard you on the perimeter, it opens up so many different things for you offensively. And that's. I think that's a bit of a credit to Mark Dagno as well. Realizing like, hey, we gotta put pressure on this guy to move defensively. And that. That feeds into what we talked about earlier with the energy and expending it and cardio and all those things too.

[Esperhini]

Yeah, you gotta, you gotta put bodies between Wembanyama and the ball, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Yep.

[Esperhini]

So you know how like, defensively it's always. You want to see the ball and stay between the ball and the basket when you're guarding I think that now we're watching the Thunder evolve in the way that you attack Wemby, you always got two bodies between Wemby and the ball, including when Shea drives into Wemby and makes the pass out. Right. Like he counts as one of those bodies. And, yeah, you know, the Thunder coaching staff been doing a really good job with that. I do want to swing back to Chet. Fred. Fred Katz has got a great story at the Athletic about Chet, a feature on Chat, winning without his ego. I actually really thought some of the quotes in there were telling where he says, hey, Shay's trying to sell some. Some shoes, so I'll talk about his shoes on my Twitch stream. You know, J Dub's trying to make All Star Game, so we're all in on. On trying to make him win an All Star Game, and I think that that is kind of why we got to see Chet get a chance to have a redemption game in game five. You know, this Thunder team has been resilient, but they've also been together, and Chet's been there, and. And you can't knock his motor. Whatever you say about him being scared in the first four games, which I. I don't know if he was scared, but he was hesitant to attack. He wasn't in game five. And I think a lot of that is because, you know, the safety of that locker room seems to be pretty solid. He can make mistakes.

[Zena Keda]

He.

[Esperhini]

He can fail. And they realize it's not just one guy that. That fails. Right? It's. Everyone's got to be involved in making Chet succeed. I think that's what we saw in Game 5. It wasn't just that Chet was better and took more shots or made him, which is, you know, sometimes we think a guy plays well because the ball goes in the hoop, and that has very little to do with it. But Chet, like, he did have his best game because other guys set him up and made sure that he was going to have a great game.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. Okc, Minnesota, there's certain teams around the association that feel like you're never going to have too low of an experience with those locker rooms, like, they're going to have your back in a certain way. And OKC is absolutely one of those. Now, to think about this series, OKC has an opportunity to close this out tonight. Game six. If you're thinking from the OKC perspective, what is going to be more important to you? Chet showing up consistently. Right. Because between Wemby and Chet, it's been a mixed bag of what you're Going to get night in, night out. They have not been able to put multiple games together or string them together. Neither one of them. Is it going to be Chet having a consistent great night again? Is it going to be Isaiah Hartenstein's ability to, to keep up the Wemby scheme, moving him towards the perimeter and, you know, giving some space? Or is it going to be another person like Jared McCain or Alex Caruso popping for your bench?

[Esperhini]

I think that this has to be a Shay game, you know. Right. I found myself thinking about Shea Gilgis Alexander's playoff run and he hasn't really felt like the best player in the league. And in any of these games, you know, Wimby, I think has. I mean, that game one was incredible. That's his peak. I think it, we're due for a Shay game, you know, like a 40 on. On efficient shooting, not on a ton of free throws. Like, you know, 16 of 17 from the free throw line is impressed.

[Dave DeFore]

This series he hasn't had that. He did it against the Suns, did it against the Lakers.

[Esperhini]

You needed this series. I think that it close them out. I think that's what it's going to take. They're going to have to go in San Antonio and win a big game and I think it's got to be a Shay game. You know, I don't know if he has to get 40, it could be 30 and 12 assists. Right. But I think he has to be the, the efficient guy that we know. He's going to have to have a nice shooting game, not just, you know, getting to the line. I do think that that's what it's going to take to close out the Spurs. So yeah, I threw a, It's a curveball option for you.

[Dave DeFore]

But I, I will be honest with you.

[Esperhini]

That's what I'm looking for.

[Dave DeFore]

I kind of, I kind of disagree with Dave.

[Zena Keda]

I agree. I disagree with you, Dave.

[Dave DeFore]

So the reason I disagree is because one, I think the, the spurs have guarded the hell out of Shay. Like they have defended him so well, better than anybody I've ever seen. And I know we can pour into the physicality conversation and the free throws and all that type of stuff, but like the way that Steph Castle and Carter Bryant and just the group, a team effort of how they have guarded Shay at the point of attack, it's been the best I've ever seen and I, I don't think he can have the efficient nights that we're used to for Shay when it comes to what he does offensively. He had one game game, I believe it was game three where he had the 12 assists and that was because they were trapping him all the time. He was finding shooters. I thought that was his best game of the series. The 30 or 26 and 12 game that he had. I think that's the type of game that they need from him. Will the spurs game plan adhere to him making those plays? I don't necessarily know. That's why I go back to the role players like especially with J Dub and AJ Mitchell injured right now. The Thunder do not have a consistent source of secondary creation. And you can credit Shea for his ability to keep everything together. It is truly incredible that the Thunder are one win away from a finals run despite those two guys missing multiple games in the series. But I do, I think it's Caruso. I think it's Jalen Williams, I think it's Jared McCain just knocking down enough

[Esperhini]

bend them that's it's been them. It needs to be. And how many times have we seen.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esperhini]

Can you rely on that? Look, if you're telling me Alex caruso is a 16 point a game 47% 3 point shooter with that kind of defense, he is like a top 50 player in the NBA.

[Dave DeFore]

Look, sometimes you need.

[Esperhini]

I agree.

[Dave DeFore]

I get it.

[Esperhini]

At some point that carriage is turning back into a pumpkin. And I'm not saying Alex, Alex Caruso is great. I'm not saying he's a pumpkin. But you know, how long can you expect this to keep going? And I think at some point it's about. It is. It is so often in the NBA and it feels so cliche that it winds up this way. But it is true. So often it's about that guy. It's the going out and saying we're winning this one and I'm taking it. I'm putting you on my back. And I'm not saying that Shea hasn't done that. He has. But I'm saying in Game 6, if they want to go to San Antonio and win that one again, spurs are. Every other game they, they definitely saved their energy in Game 5 because they didn't expend any on the court. And so you're looking at game six with maybe a more rested team. I hope. I don't know. I've won a good game. But Shay, I think has to go in there and put a stamp on it.

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[Esperhini]

We've seen this too many times in the NBA for me to discount it. It. It's as good as this team has been. It's Time for Shay to go and close the door. That's it. If they, if they're going to close it out in Game 6, Shay has a huge game.

[Zena Keda]

Well, we're all on different pages.

[Esperhini]

I'm fired up for this game, guys. Yeah, this is going to be awesome.

[Zena Keda]

We're on different pages because I think s. You're on the, you know, role player route.

[Esperhini]

It's been the role players.

[Zena Keda]

I think it's the, it's Chet. I think it's Chet needing to show up. He can't have an eight point game. He can't have these even a 13 point game. Like he has to be consistent two nights in a row. And that to me, whether Shea has an efficient game or not, whether the bench shows up or not, one of those two is going to pop from, from historical fact. One of those two is going to do well. Even if it's not to the efficiency that we need it to be. If you add in Chet, I think that is going to be the factor.

[Dave DeFore]

We deserve game seven. We, we do deserve game seven. Yes. I'm entitled.

[Esperhini]

So you're saying Shay is not getting a game in game six.

[Gradient FC Advertiser]

I see.

[Dave DeFore]

I, I, I really, I think we'll see what happens.

[Esperhini]

You're predicting game seven?

[Dave DeFore]

I am.

[Esperhini]

Guys, I don't know Game seven. I don't know. It, it, it pains me to say this, but after watching the spurs in Game 5, I just don't, I don't know how you bounce back from that.

[Dave DeFore]

Zena, what do you think? Game seven?

[Zena Keda]

I think they take, I absolutely think game seven.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay.

[Zena Keda]

I, I think there's just too much. More than anything. Yes, they're tired, but the, the a, the angst, it's built up feeling a

[Esperhini]

little bit like the Nuggets the last few years as far as running out of gas.

[Zena Keda]

It does, it does. I, we'll see.

[Dave DeFore]

I think, I think it's really hard to close out this spurs team. I, I just, I think they are especially.

[Zena Keda]

It was hard to close them out even the other night. Like they just kept staying, sticking around.

[Dave DeFore]

They don't go away.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. And they're going to be at home. I think there's something in to be said about that as well. So we'll see. All right, let's close this out really quickly, guys. All NBA. Dave and I broke this down earlier this week. I'm happy to hear that S is here and can give us our thoughts. And I, I don't know if they're going to be all Scotty Barnes based, but I Just wanted to, you know, make sure that you have the floor to search what your thoughts were. I honestly the all NBA snubs and

[Dave DeFore]

I'm going to be real with you. I don't have like the craziest take on the all NBA teams. I think they are fine teams. It doesn't matter to me. I think it was an uphill battle for Scottie to make an all NBA team. As soon as Luka Doncic and Cade Cunningham became eligible. I think it was really hard, especially with the points per game bias. Scotty didn't score enough to really be in consideration for all NBA. You could have maybe considered him over Jalen Duran or Jalen Johnson, but that's fine. I like those regular seasons. It's again not that big of a deal. The all defense is a big issue for me though. He was at worst, Scotty Barnes was at worst the fourth best defender in the NBA last season. And I have a bunch of numbers. And truthfully my issue with this isn't the fact that he even made second team all defense. I think it's a great honor to be listed one of the 10 best defenders in the NBA guys. He finished fifth in defensive player of the year voting. It does not make sense to me that he finished top 5 in MVP vote in defensive player of the year voting but did not finish top five in all defense voting. There were nine voters and I'm not going to go and list who the nine voters were, but there were nine voters who didn't even vote him for an all defense spot. That's just, that's a huge blind spot for whatever these voters were. And look, this is a guy who was third in the NBA in total stocks behind WEMBY and ASAR. 90th percentile in terms of defensive position versatility. Basically everyone on the first team all D is behind him in terms of total deflections other than a Sar Thompson. By the way, this is the craziest that I wanted to pull out to you guys. He is 94th percentile this season in terms of on off opponent rim frequency. Which means the Raptors defend the rim way better when Scotty is on the floor compared to everybody else. Do you know who he's ahead of? He's ahead of Victor Wembanyama, Chet Holmgren, Rudy Gobert in that regard.

[Zena Keda]

Wow.

[Dave DeFore]

That is. I think again it is a huge lapse in judgment to be able to not recognize how important Scotty Barnes was for the Raptors season. He was their best player. Without him they would have been absolutely Lost. So I think it is absolutely crazy that he didn't get first team all defense and I'm falling off. That's it. I'm never mentioning this again.

[Esperhini]

Brought to you by the Canadian Board of Tourism. Come to beautiful Toronto.

[Dave DeFore]

That's great weather.

[Zena Keda]

S warned us he didn't have thoughts on all NBA, but he absolutely had a good thought.

[Dave DeFore]

Listen, that's it. No more Raptors talk until July.

[Zena Keda]

With you. I'm with you guys. You know, it wasn't until after our conversation when I thought more about it. Like when I think about who was making a block at the end of the game to save a game, it was Scotty Barnes. And look, looking that up, he led the NBA in clutch time blocks, those type of plays. It's one thing to have a block in the middle of the game in the first quarter, great. But game saving blocks, very important. And it is kind of crazy that there were people that said, nah, I'm good on any of the defensive teams. That's wild. What is particularly interesting is that this could have impacted his ability to get a supermax.

[Dave DeFore]

Not necessarily. So he already, he, he already got his extension and he wouldn't have been eligible for the other stuff. Yes. In the way that if he were to keep getting the NBA in the future, if he had like multiple, then yes, he would, he would be eligible for it. But that's more all NBA than all defense. So.

[Zena Keda]

Okay.

[Esperhini]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Cool.

[Dave DeFore]

I think he's, I would say a

[Esperhini]

year to steal one would have been this year. Right. With all the injuries. Although going forward we'll see if, I mean if the best players in the league are all going to flirt with playing somewhere around 65 games. I think that this, as long as that rule is there, we're going to see more all NBA teams that, that feature guys that maybe, maybe wouldn't. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

And, and I mean that's the other part. Scotty played 80 games. You know, that's tough. The entire year. So anyway, also shout out.

[Esperhini]

That's it.

[Dave DeFore]

That's all I got.

[Zena Keda]

Shout out to Kevin Durant, he player ever to make all NBA with five different teams, which is.

[Esperhini]

Wow, is that a good thing?

[Dave DeFore]

The rainbow.

[Zena Keda]

That's. It's a different type of rainbow. That's a different type of rainbow. SGA and Jokic were the only unanimous first team picks. Wemby got one voter that put him on a second team.

[Esperhini]

What?

[Zena Keda]

Very curious.

[Esperhini]

Amazing. So I know the voting came out and, and we've talked about this a little bit. I, I, I'm Pretty disinterested in the votes. Yeah, that's absurd.

[Zena Keda]

That's.

[Esperhini]

That's the last time that's ever going to happen. I'm just going to go ahead and say it now.

[Dave DeFore]

I saw the voter and again, I'm not going to shout.

[Esperhini]

Yeah, we're not.

[Dave DeFore]

No, they, they, they posted a video explaining why they did so and it was because they didn't want to discredit earlier big men in the 90s and 80s who didn't benefit from this change of rule. If you guys remember back in the day, it used to be one center per all NBA team. So some guys would be left all.

[Esperhini]

We'll talk about. I'll find out who the voter was. But I actually, I'm down with that reasoning theory. Yeah, listen, I actually think that they should bring positions back. They should bring positions back. Got to bring it back. It tells the story of the game. Game. Bring the positions back. Otherwise three centers on, on the all

[Dave DeFore]

center, he plays forward slash guards. He's not.

[Esperhini]

You can do guards and bigs.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, let's keep it. Let's close it out. Other big NBA announcement this week, not about players. It was the coach. Joe Missoula got the trophy, the trophy of coach of the year. I don't think he cares. It's going to make an assumption. He does not care.

[Dave DeFore]

He's watching.

[Esperhini]

I don't think they're even doing a press conference, to be honest with you.

[Zena Keda]

Like, yeah.

[Esperhini]

Which is okay. I'm fine with that. Totally fine with that. Yeah. It's funny.

[Dave DeFore]

He's always been like, hey, I'm attributing everything to the players and not me. And I also think, you know, despite the way the Celtics flamed out, it is 100% fair for him to be coach of the year. I think he, he squeezed as much juice as possible out of a Celtics team that obviously was very injured. The development of some of their younger guys and rotation players, those guys didn't pan out in the playoffs for them. Like Keita had a really, really poor postseason. But in terms of the regular season, they destroyed every expectation we had for them. So I'm not, I'm not mad at that coach of the year at all.

[Esperhini]

He's also an aberration in the NBA. He calls every play, every play he coaches every play. That used to be Carlisle single play. I mean, when you watch a Celtics game, you can get all their play calls because he is making them on the sideline. And that's a little bit unique. You know, where it's not just, you know, here's the action we're going in. I mean, he's calling everything as far as game micromanagers go. I mean he is up there and frankly, like he's got a. It's a little bit like Mike Budenholzer. He's going to create such a high floor for your team that you're going to be able to flirt with the second round or conference finals as long as you've got some talent on the court. But where he has failed in these high profile playoff losses is the inability to adjust. And I actually think that the big goal for Joe Missoula next season is to lose sight of just the regular season and to play around and experiment more. What we're seeing out of the Thunder right now is because they spent all year without a solid rotation, guys in and out of the lineup. They were ready for this.

[Dave DeFore]

It's very intuitive. Yeah.

[Esperhini]

Celtics weren't ready to make changes, which is why that game 7 swap that they made look looks so desperate. They just didn't try enough stuff. Part of his personality. They just didn't have anyone who could deal with Embiid. But also they weren't ready for that moment. They never got a chance, you know, getting Jason Tatum back late. They didn't really get a chance to experiment with some stuff like maybe Jason Tatum at the five. And so I think that what he needs to do is very similar to the year that Mike Budenholzer and the and the Bucks wound up winning the title. They spent that season trying things out what works. They've got a 50 win roster and a 50 win coach no matter what. Like that's their floor. So play with your ceiling, see if you can.

[Dave DeFore]

They trade for you.

[Esperhini]

Raise the roof a little bit.

[Zena Keda]

Well, what's so weird to me is that I think there were elements, there were parts of the season where I felt like they were playing. When you saw, you know, the Garzas of the world and the.

[Dave DeFore]

There was some experiment stylistically though.

[Esperhini]

I mean, stylistically they have to try some different stuff and they shot fewer threes, so they did some of that. But I just think that they're, they've got to, they've got to get into some other weird areas of basketball just to try some things out. I mean, look at the, the adjustment that we've seen out of the Knicks where they, they make this big change functionally to their, their offensive team. The Celtics were never going to be able to do that. They were going to play the Missoula style and I think that he just needs to have a curveball. Fastball is great, but you need something else.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, Missoula 1B something another level to it. Okay y', all, we gotta close this out. We got. You know, there's still some coaching positions that are open. We're going to keep an eye on those. Make sure that you are checking out the Athletic because some amazing pieces are being put out. Shout out to Fred Katz on his piece on Chet.

[Esperhini]

Will Gillory had a great Jamal Mosley piece.

[Zena Keda]

Yes, the Wemban Yamix Peace by Jez Weiss. Definitely check. Keep keep close to the Athletic because there's so much good journalism coming out of it right now. But as of right now, we just want to say thank you for listening. Make sure you subscribe wherever you are. On behalf of Dave Defore, Esperahine and me, Zena Keda, we appreciate you listening and waking up with us. Have a good one.

[Esperhini]

Thanks for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe or Follow button so you you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed it, drop a like, leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us.

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[Ben Green from the Athletic FC]

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