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- [00:01]
Advertiser
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- [01:20]
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- [01:47]
Wes Goldberg
This.
- [01:48]
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- [02:31]
Dave Dufour
Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily. Coming up, Wes Goldberg from Real GM Radio is here. We're going to talk about the teams that need to avoid the play in the most out west and his opinion on defensive player of the year and most improved. Good morning everybody. Good morning Wes. Welcome to the show. Wes Goldberg, if you guys don't know, he is the host of Real GM Radio and also locked on Heat. So he's one of my Miami Heat guys when I when I need some info. But we're talking big picture NBA stuff. National championship game was last night. What a game.
- [03:06]
Wes Goldberg
What a game. That's right. Yeah. Excited to see how it turns out.
- [03:11]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, we're recording this before the game. Full disclosure. But Wes, you know looking at the playoff race out west and it is objectively a mess right now, basically the the way the playin is set up with the seven and eight seeds right now we have a possibility of the Lakers, the Nuggets, the Clippers, the Warriors, the Wolves or the Grizzlies being the seven or eight seed right now. A as of this recording. This is one of the more chaotic playoff races since the introduction of the play in. How do you feel about the play in and its effect on the on the playoffs? Like do you have an opinion on that?
- [03:55]
Wes Goldberg
So I used to. So when it first was introduced I was anti plan because I mostly don't like new things and things that generally add more stuff to an already packed NBA schedule. And then I really liked the plan because it ended up being really exciting. And then I'm looking at the Eastern Conference this year. I'm like we sure we need to play in here. We kind of know the teams that should be in the playoffs. But in this case this is pretty interesting. My only fix to the plan would be like do we really need the 910 teams in here? Maybe just one game for the 78 seeds to figure it out, battle it out and then go that way. But in general, yeah, I think the play in is fine, it works and we're in for a really exciting finish here because I don't like you said this is madness. I don't remember the last time the standings were just like this bananas with four or five games left in the season and it's every single day its standings watching in the Western Conference now.
- [04:44]
Dave Dufour
Right. And so the right now the Rockets look like they're the worst they can do is the three seed. You know they had a big win over the warriors and that's going to actually keep the warriors from having a chance to make it all the way to the two seed which they still had a chance for had they beaten the Rockets. In the game on, on Sunday, but after that, I mean, it's kind of chaotic. You've got the Lakers who had the huge win over Oklahoma City. They're of course going to play over Oklahoma City again tonight, which could, could be big for them because they're still, you know, trying to fight for that three seed and to keep the Nuggets back. The Nuggets have lost four straight as we're recording. The Clippers right behind them have won four straight. And obviously the warriors have just been a different team since they got Jimmy Butler now 21 and three with, with him on the team. Minnesota has played around with this play in range pretty much all season. You know, it seems like they go, they'll win three or four games, then they'll struggle for three or four games and then the Grizzlies have just fallen off a cliff, obviously most recently changing head coaches in that group. You know, Wes, like what team just pops out to you first as a team that definitely just, they need to avoid the play in, whether it's a rest that they need or just you worry about them in a single elimination situation.
- [06:01]
Wes Goldberg
Well, my first thought is Warriors, Lakers, just because of their aging stars, don't play as many games. Especially when you think about the warriors. They've got Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler got injured in the playing tournament last year when he was playing for the Miami Heat and then wasn't available for them the first round against Boston. So age, whatever. But then I'm like, well, anybody can get injured. It's, you know, stuff happens all the time. I'm looking at the Clippers, Dave. I'm really looking at the Clippers. Here they are. They have not beaten the Thunder or the Rockets this season. So if they're in the play in and they make it out of the play in, well, they're going to have to probably play one of the Rockets or the Thunder in that first round. And like I said, they haven't beaten those guys yet. Now they do play Houston on Wednesday night. Maybe that's something that could be informational for us. But they're a team that actually has some pretty good matchup stuff depending on where they might end up in the bracket. Like they have beaten Golden State, right? They, they match up really well with Denver. So if they end up in a first round series against those teams, they probably feel a lot better about their chances against them than they would against a couple of teams that they have yet to beat all season long. So I look at the Clippers as the team that really needs to avoid the playing probably more than any of these other teams. Not to say the regular season is everything, but. But yeah, those matchups are tough for them.
- [07:11]
Dave Dufour
Right?
- [07:12]
Wes Goldberg
Right.
- [07:12]
Dave Dufour
Yeah. I mean, it is good though that they're playing some of their best basketball right now. I think they, they're likely to avoid it. You know, we had Kawhi Leonard, he was the Western Conference player of the month last month. I mean, they're kind of peaking at the right time. It seems like the chemistry is great for them. So I expect them to avoid it. What about, like, how do you feel about the Grizzlies winning a game? I see, to me, I look at them, I've seen them as a first round out all year. I thought that they were kind of a paper regular season team and I think that the team probably agreed with me. I don't know, man. One game, it feels like, yeah, they could win, like Ja could go off, but with the way that defense has just fallen off a cliff, I just, I don't know. I think that if they're not, you know, the six seat or above, it's just they're. They're going on vacation.
- [08:02]
Wes Goldberg
Yeah, that's a team that feels like they might not even make it out of the play. And I just saw John Morant in Miami hit a game winner to win the game for the Grizzlies the other night. So I'm not going to doubt John Rant. And we've seen what he could do in the playoffs before. I mean, that guy is a playoff gamer. We don't really talk about him in that, in that sort of tier of player, but he's been basically his whole career. Jaren Jackson Jr. Has been phenomenal this year, especially like we know what he does defensively, offensively. He's taken a leap on that end. I always think that we've thought of Memphis as a deep team. And then you kind of look at the roster this year and you're like, I don't. How deep is this team? You know, like they're relying on two rookies in that starting lineup. There's guys that I like coming off the bench, but this team is really reliant on Desmond Bain making threes. They're a team that if just one thing kind of goes wrong in the game, especially with the new coaching there, it feels like can kind of go sideways for them early in the game. So yeah, it feels like Memphis is one of these teams that could lose a game that maybe you don't even expect them to Lose in the playing tournament.
- [09:01]
Dave Dufour
What about Denver? I mentioned they're on the losing streak right now. Michael Malone, I mean, the entire team seems pretty dejected. Obviously, they're dealing with some health issues. Jamal Murray, do you trust them to get themselves out of the play in if they're in that 7, 8 game?
- [09:18]
Wes Goldberg
I think I do. Just because Jokic, you know, at the risk of oversimplifying stuff, but he's just obviously a guy who could take over any game and diagnose that matchup and do what they. We've seen him go off for 61 points when they've needed him to do it. So if it's a do or die situation, I just trust him to do that. But yeah, avoiding the plan for them, too, would be really important. Making it out of the plan. I mean, this is just a team that's been dealing with injuries all year. We know the Jamal Murray thing. Like you already mentioned, Aaron Gordon has been in and out of the lineup with injuries all year. It seems like that still might be affecting him a little bit here. And then even with Jokic, the guy's playing so many minutes this year. You know, if you could avoid the playing and just save him a week, doesn't that feel like of all the players in the playoffs, Jokic might be the guy that needs a week off the most, considering what this season has been for this guy.
- [10:02]
Dave Dufour
Right.
- [10:04]
Wes Goldberg
Give him the week off. Like, if you're Denver, they're also a team that kind of uses momentum a lot, which is kind of weird for, like a veteran team. But when they've got, when they are able to string together a couple of wins, that usually leads to another couple of wins for them. So if they're playing and peaking at the right time, even though they've lost a few games in a row here, if they can kind of close out this last week strong, that probably sets up well for them.
- [10:24]
Advertiser
Yeah.
- [10:25]
Dave Dufour
And I mean, I think when you've got a guy like MPJ that they need to have, if in one game, he has to have a good game and he has been incredibly inconsistent the last couple months. Yeah, I would be very concerned. You know, again, the Jamal Murray injury, we, we've highlighted just them trying to close games with Russell Westbrook can sometimes be a disaster. So you get into a situation like that, you just don't have any wiggle room. Where would you. So are you saying Clippers? That's it. Clippers have to avoid the play in. That's, that's your, your, your bet right there.
- [10:59]
Wes Goldberg
That's kind of where I'm at just because even if they do make it out of the play in, it just feels like they would be dead in the water in a first round. It's just a tough matchup for them and they've proven that in the regular season. And. But then on the flip side, if they can get into that four or five range, well, now all of a sudden you're looking at a matchup that could be beneficial for them. And now maybe we're talking about a team that could make it out of the first round of the Western Conference. And then once you're there and you see how the bracket works, who knows, Maybe that's the team that can make it all the way to the conference finals. And Kawhi Leonard's been playing like that guy James Harden. We know his playoff words, but he's not that guy anymore for this team as long as Kawhi is healthy. And, and then obviously you save a week and you risk or you, you mitigate the risk of Kawhi aggravating something in another week there too. So, yeah, my answer is the Clippers, probably just because it feels like it. It could either be over before it even begins or this is a team that we could be looking in a month from now or a couple months from now and be like, wow, that team, that, that team made a, a run to the Western Conference finals that we didn't expect.
- [11:57]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, the seating may affect them more than, than any other team. I actually, I like that take quite a bit. I think that they can win one game because they have Kawhi, but I do think if they can get to that 4, 5 seed or 4 seed, that it, it is a hugely beneficial for them to get through to the finals. Stick around, guys. After the break, we're going to talk about defensive player of the year and most improved. And I believe we're going to talk about another Clipper because the Vita Zubac has been pretty good as it is probably been very apparent it is award season in the NBA ecosphere. Draymond Green has gone on a single man self campaign for defense player of the year and he has somehow swung the betting odds way in his favor. Wes, has he swung you over into his camp? Are you, are you pro Draymond for defense player of the year this year?
- [13:04]
Wes Goldberg
I'm not. And that's not even a thing against Draymond. I think he's been sensational and he's had really big games and really big moments in on like a National stage. Right. We what he did against Giannis a couple weeks ago was just classic Draymond Green, defensive master class. He had those stops against the Lakers a couple nights ago that were huge, obviously down the stretch. And he's awesome. Like, Draymond Green's awesome. And the fact that he only has one Defensive Player of the Year award for his career, it's kind of a crime. So if he were to get it again this year, I wouldn't be upset about it. But I also don't think that he was wire to wire to the best defender in the league this season, despite, you know, everything that he's been saying and the campaign that he's had the best campaign out of anybody in terms of just being out there.
- [13:46]
Dave Dufour
I agree about it.
- [13:47]
Wes Goldberg
But yeah, I don't think he's been the best defender wire to wire.
- [13:51]
Dave Dufour
So who's it been for you then? I mean, I look, Victor Women, Yama had the award locked up. Like, we know that. Just the way that he has completely changed the geometry of the court for opposing teams. We know that. Jaren Jackson, I thought was the front runner to take a spot. Obviously the big injury took him out. Evan Mobley sort of petered out. As far as being the guy who was right behind Jaren Jackson, it seems like his case kind of has gone up in smoke. Who's your guy?
- [14:20]
Wes Goldberg
So I'm between two guys, but before I tell you who it is, can we talk a little bit about Amen Thompson making a late push for this thing?
- [14:27]
Dave Dufour
Because I would love to talk about. Yeah, let's do it.
- [14:30]
Wes Goldberg
What he did against Steph Curry and the warriors on Sunday night, it has you just as me at least rethinking my whole Defensive Player of the Year thing. And then I look at the different sports books this morning, Dave, and like he's not even listed on these things in terms of odds. And I'm like, look, I don't know if he would be my favorite. He's probably not right now, but he would. He would be on my ballot like. And to not even have him mentioned in this conversation. I mean, Shay Gilchrist Alexander has better odds than Ahmed Thompson does. That seems weird. So he's one of those guys who, when I think about Defensive Player of the Year, not only am I looking at who's getting stops and who's important to their defense, but who's making those game changing defensive plays, who's swinging the momentum and changing the entire tenor of the whole matchup just with what they do on the defensive End. And I don't know that there's. I mean, I don't. Is there anybody better than Amen Thompson on that end when. When he's sort of just totally dialed in and engaged in terms of just making those huge kind of game swinging type of plays on the defensive end? I think he at least has to be in the conversation.
- [15:30]
Dave Dufour
Well, oh, no, absolutely. I think that's actually the case that Draymond is so able to make. I mean, when you see Draymond, I mean, he, he's out there doing the interviews and then he goes and makes a game winning play, you know, that's on national television. I, I do think that stuff matters. And the men's ability to guard the. The best guy on the other team. Draymond doesn't even have to do that now. Right. Like, there's someone else that goes and does that. He's in that helper role and he's, you know, playing free safety and he's quarterback in the defense and all these other things. But there is something to, you know, it's hard to reward, it seems in the NBA that sort of defender, you know, S. And I have talked about this quite a bit. S. Bar Henney, obviously, for the people listening, has this idea that maybe we needed, you know, the defensive player of the year award needs to be like a wing award and a big award or some kind of a role based award or something like that. Because it is too hard to quantify what Amend Thompson does every night. But as you said. Yeah, I just don't think he's done quite enough to be, you know, at that level, but certainly should be on the odds somewhere.
- [16:37]
Wes Goldberg
Yeah. It's just weird that we're not even having him in the conversation. I mean, he guarded Steph on Sunday night. He guards Shay Gil Just Alexander in Houston's win over Oklahoma City. And then a couple of weeks ago, he's guarding Luka and holds him to one for six shooting. Right. It's just there are moments for him. But to your point, it's very similar to the Draymond Green case a little bit. I just wanted to throw him in there. But to answer your question, I'm either I'm between Lou Dort and Evan Mobley at this point, and now you kind of get back to that classic, oh, am I going to go to the perimeter guy or am I going to go with the big. And I will make the case for Lou Dort because the one thing I hear, Evan Mobley, everybody, like, he's awesome. Cleveland's defense has been really good. But with Lou Dort, I keep hearing this pushback of, well, he's surrounded with a lot of really good defenders in Oklahoma City. And that's true, like, no doubt about it. I kind of think the whole thing falls apart without Lou Dort a little bit. Like, it's not to say that they would be a bad defense, but they wouldn't be elite. Like just this absolute, you know, razor of a. Of a defense that just is carrying them to wins. It's almost 70 wins in a season. They'd probably be still top 10. But I don't think they would be this dominant on this end if not for Lou Dort. He's always the guy taking the most difficult assignment. He's kind of the anchor of that defense and everybody else kind of does stuff around him, but every single night he's bringing it. And I just think about two things. Who's had the best wire to wire defensive season? I think Lou Dort started the year just already looking like an all defensive guy. And he's finished the year looking at it. He's not had any lulls or any dips. I can't think of a time where I watched the Thunder game and I was like, not an awesome game for Dort defensively on this end. Right? The guy just doesn't screw up. He's awesome and he's super important. And he's also really important to all the stuff they do with the deflections and all that kind of stuff. Like, he's so integral into everything that Mark Dagnaut is doing there. And then the other thing is, when you talk to players around the league, you ask him, who's the one guy you don't want defending you? They all say Lou Dort. They all say Lou Dort.
- [18:27]
Dave Dufour
Well, the numbers guy. The numbers back it up. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, when you look at what the opposing stars, you know, the numbers they put up against the Thunder, there is a Dort depression in. In those numbers. You know, definitely the, the numbers are in the red, let's say for opposing star players. Most improved. Now, this is somewhat controversial award because it winds up that it's going to go to some somebody like Cade Cunningham. But this isn't to say that Cade Cunningham isn't a much better player right now than he was this time a year ago, because I happen to think that he has just taken a massive leap this season in a lot of ways. Not just winning games, but also the way that he's winning games. And finishing games, but he is like the front runner for this award. And to me, that kind of breaks the spirit of what most improved should be about. I think that when you're that highly touted as a prospect, man, isn't this sort of the expectation?
- [19:28]
Wes Goldberg
It is. And there should be a rule. I don't know what it is. I'm usually anti rules, but can we stop voting? These guys, right, that are top five picks, like, oh, wow, it's crazy that this guy got good. Good, right? You know, I've seen it labeled as like the, the MVP Junior award. It's. It, it's. It shouldn't be that. Right. And as soon as John Morant.
- [19:47]
Dave Dufour
Yeah.
- [19:48]
Wes Goldberg
Mailed his most improved award to Desmond Bain, we should have realized in that moment, oh, we're doing this all wrong. So I, I don't even ever really consider a top 10 pick unless it's like a weird, like, case where the guy never looked like a top 10 pick and then all of a sudden did. But I just. Yeah, if you're one of the top players in the draft, you're. The whole thing was that you're supposed to get better and be good. So I don't, I don't think John Moran should have ever won it, and I certainly don't think Cage should win it. It's nothing to do with Cade or Evan Mobley, like another guy who would have a case. But I'm like, dude, these guys are good. They're supposed to be good. I'm not voting for them. It kind of goes against the spirit of the award.
- [20:24]
Dave Dufour
So where's the bar set for you? You don't necessarily have to make a choice here, but, like, what's your field? You know, like, when you're saying, here is my, you know, such and such is in the conversation. Who are your guys? Like you a handful.
- [20:36]
Wes Goldberg
I do. I think about like a guy like Avicha Zubac, who has. It's been steady improvement his entire career, but has legitimately been one of the best five centers in the league this year. I mean, it is. He is an elite center. I think he's been awesome. I think Austin Reeves has also taken a leap. I think we have. You can't ignore that. Christian Brown in Denver, Dyson Daniels with what he's doing in Atlanta, even though that you could argue, is that an opportunity thing or is that really an improvement? I can go either way on that. Ty Jerome Payton Pritchard. I mean, there's such a bunch of Aaron Wiggins, like these guys off the bench that are just doing really important stuff for really good teams. The guy that I go back to though, and this might be my Miami homerism talking here, Dave, but I can't help but think that Tyler Hero deserves real recognition for this award. This is a guy who, when I think about most improved, right, Like I don't. We already discussed the top five guys that are supposed to be good. I also want to see a guy who legitimately improved in, in different parts of his game, certain skills, but also maybe change the way that he plays. I think that's maybe the hardest improvement to do, especially if you're somebody like Tyler Hero, who six years into his career has a six man of the year award, has been a part of two finals teams, has been a 20 point per game scorer twice going into this year, made $100 million contract earned, $100 million contract. Guys in that position don't usually say, you know what, I'm going to change everything about what I'm doing. I'm going to just completely change it all. And he went into the lab this offseason and said everything that he had been doing to this point wasn't good enough anymore. And he looked at his shot chart and he looked at all the things that he was trying to work on and his skill development and his physical development and he just, he scratched all of it. And he said, I'm going to do it all different. And he looked at Steph Curry's shot chart and he's like, I want to get as close to that as possible. And then he did like all the mid range jumpers, that he would dribble airball, that he would dribble the air out of the ball and dribble into. Those are gone. You know, he started taking way more threes. The off ball movement has been huge. Physically, he's much more improved. It's the first time he's ever played 70 games in a season. This year since his rookie year, I mean he's gotten more durable. Like you think about all the things that he could have improved upon and that he were asking him to improve upon and he just checked every single box. And then he became a first time all star. So he was rewarded with it, with the individual accolades as well. I think it's so hard for a player again who is a first round pick, made the money, did all that stuff to just walk into year six and be like, I'm going to, it's not good enough. I'm going to change all of it. I'm going to change my mindset. I think that's so hard and underappreciated that when I look at most improved, I don't know that anybody has improved from where they were to where they are now as much as Tyler Hero has.
- [23:11]
Dave Dufour
I mean, I just like that it's, you know, he's in year six. This is the thing to me is I would rather look at guys in that 5 to 7, 8 year range when we're talking about most improved guys that, you know, have been in had a chance to be maybe multiple types of players in their career, like Tyler Herro, who now has had this evolution. I actually think that, man, that's a great call. And it's a little. It's similar to the Austin Reeves thing where it's like, well, clearly there's been a leap, except Tyler Hero went to being the guy not the best third option in the league, which, you know, Austin Reeves I think has become. Tyler Hero has become the guy for a team. And I. That is a degree of difficulty is much higher. Yeah, I like that. So who would your. Who would your runner up be?
- [23:53]
Wes Goldberg
Yeah, I, I might go Zubac here and that I don't have a great reason other than he's been awesome and I love watching that guy playing. And he's just. I'm gonna put him on every single ballot. He'll be on my defensive player of the year ballot. I love the season that he's been putting together. So off the top of my head, I go Zubac.
- [24:07]
Dave Dufour
He's also high up there on the unexpected voice list, too. Like, it's like, oh, that's. That's what you sound like. It's very funny. Wes Goldberg. That's what he sounds like. You guys can hear him over in Real GM RA Locked on Heat. He's very good at this. Hopefully comes back during the playoffs. Appreciate you hanging out with me. That's going to do it for the show, folks. Thank you guys for listening. For Wes, I'm Dave Dufour and this has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.
- [25:00]
Discover Representative
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- [25:26]
Aura Representative
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- [26:19]
Wes Goldberg
Acast powers the World's Best Podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [26:27]
Dave Dufour
Hey guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [26:30]
Wes Goldberg
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [26:35]
Dave Dufour
We love getting to talk to experts, we love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from you. But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh. A lot has changed in the last seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with us.
- [26:50]
Wes Goldberg
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast.
- [26:53]
Dave Dufour
We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines.
- [26:56]
Wes Goldberg
With Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [26:58]
Dave Dufour
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all about aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older.
- [27:05]
Wes Goldberg
We hope you'll join us.
- [27:06]
Dave Dufour
Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen.
- [27:08]
Wes Goldberg
Holderness New episodes every Tuesday.
- [27:12]
Discover Representative
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [27:18]
Wes Goldberg
Acast.com.