What NBA Trade would shape the offseason? + Game 6 Preview | Morning Shoot Around

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily - Episode Summary: "What NBA Trade Would Shape the Offseason? + Game 6 Preview | Morning Shoot Around"

Release Date: June 18, 2025
Hosts: Andrew Schlecht, Dave DeFore, Zena Keita, Esfandiar Baraheni

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1. Introduction to Game 6 of the NBA Finals

The episode kicks off with a detailed preview of Game 6 of the NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC) and the Indiana Pacers, scheduled to take place the following day in Indiana.

• Zena Keita’s Expectation:
  [03:46] Zena anticipates OKC delivering a spectacular performance, likening their gameplay to the grand finale of a fireworks show:

  “Everything we have seen, everything we have applauded all season long is just going to be on display. It's going to be like, you know, at the end of a firework show where they just go pop and it's just like all the fireworks all at once.”

2. Team Analysis: Oklahoma City Thunder vs. Indiana Pacers

Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC)

• Adaptation and Adjustments:
  The Thunder have effectively ramped up their offensive strategies by involving key players like Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA) and Jalen “J Dub” Williams more prominently.

  [22:13] F highlights OKC’s offensive evolution:
  “They're just involving J Dub way more like the usage rate has gone through the roof every single game of this series.”

• Defense and Key Performances:
  Despite their offensive improvements, OKC's defense remains a pillar of their gameplay, consistently limiting the Pacers’ offensive options.

  [17:02] Dave DeFore remarks on Miles Turner’s defensive efforts:
  “He's had defensive moments. Right. But he hasn't had a 17-20 point game.”

Indiana Pacers

• Challenges and Player Performance:
  The Pacers face significant challenges, particularly with the potential absence of Tyrese Halliburton, which could disrupt their offensive balance.

  [08:38] Dave DeFore discusses the impact of Halliburton's potential injury:
  “If he's ineffective like he was the other night, you know, to be a decoy, I think in the NBA, it's just you can't do that in the playoffs at all.”

• Key Players:

  • TJ McConnell:
    [08:57] F emphasizes McConnell’s potential to salvage the Pacers' season:

    “TJ McConnell could save the Pacer season.”

  • Miles Turner:
    Turner’s performance has been under scrutiny, with his offensive contributions not meeting expectations despite his defensive efforts.

    [18:56] Dave DeFore critiques Turner's rebounding:
    “He's averaging three rebounds in the finals.”

3. Key Storylines and Team Histories

The discussion delves into the historical contexts of both franchises, highlighting OKC’s resilience and Pacers' strategic team-building through drafting and trades.

• OKC’s Legacy:

  [47:52] Xena reflects on OKC’s persistent pursuit of a championship:
  “For them, this is about certifying everything that they've done this season.”

• Pacers’ Team Building:
  The Pacers have excelled in maximizing draft picks and making timely trades, with notable mention of the Pascal Siakam trade as a pivotal move.

  [54:16] Dave DeFore praises the Pacers’ drafting strategy:
  “They managed to do it through some good drafting without a high draft pick and with timely trades.”

4. Potential Offseason Trades That Could Shape the NBA

The hosts brainstorm potential trades that could significantly impact the upcoming NBA offseason, focusing on high-impact players and strategic team needs.

• Kevin Durant to Denver Nuggets:
  Dave DeFore expresses support for a potential trade sending KD to the Nuggets, emphasizing the synergy between Durant and Jokic:

  [59:26] Dave DeFore: “If Kevin Durant's serious about wanting to win a title and... go play with Jokic.”

• Derek White to San Antonio Spurs:
  Esfandiar Baraheni suggests the Spurs target Derek White from the Boston Celtics for his defensive prowess and fit alongside their existing lineup:

  [61:50] F: “I'm a big Trey Murphy guy. Honest with you, I think he's a star.”

• Trey Murphy Jr. to Detroit Pistons:
  Andrew Schlecht and Dave DeFore discuss the potential benefits of the Pistons acquiring Trey Murphy Jr. to bolster their guard lineup, despite the challenges of matching trades:

  [69:00] Xena: “Retriever White... call Denver.”

5. Cultural and Media Dynamics

The conversation touches on the relationship between teams and media personalities, particularly highlighting the favorable portrayal of OKC compared to more controversial teams like the Warriors.

• Liking Over Hating:
  The Pacers and Thunder are praised for their likable personalities and sportsmanship, contrasting with more polarizing teams:

  [41:11] Dave DeFore: “We're trying to interpret and tell the story of what happened from a storytelling perspective... They are a very nice NBA Finals.”

6. Closing Thoughts

The episode wraps up with the hosts encouraging listeners to engage by subscribing to their YouTube channel, liking the videos, and leaving comments about potential trades they’d like to see in the offseason.

• Andrew Schlecht’s Sign-off:

  [70:16] Andrew Schlecht: “Thank you guys so much for listening to the morning shoot around. We appreciate you guys subscribing and following along all season.”

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Notable Quotes:

• “This is what it's like to be consistently dominant and get that far... It takes hard work to make it look so easy.” — Xena Keita (49:12)

• “They're unsure about Miles Turner's impact, but if J Dub continues his performance, it could tilt the series.” — Dave DeFore (23:17)

• “The Pacers’ approach to team building through drafting and trades is commendable and sets them up for future success.” — Dave DeFore (54:16)

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions from "Morning Shoot Around," providing insights into Game 6's expectations, team analyses, potential offseason trades, and overarching storylines shaping the NBA landscape.

Transcript

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[Andrew Schlecht]

Welcome to the morning shoot around here on the athletic NBA dailies YouTube fee. We're live on YouTube every week on Wednesdays. We'd love for you to Join us on our YouTube page page. While you're at it, subscribe. Like the videos. Leave a comment. We would love that. Today we're going to talk about Game 6 of the NBA Finals, which is tomorrow Thursday in Indiana. Very exciting. We're going to talk about who the title would mean the most to if they want it. And then we're going to talk about a trade that we would like to see happen sometime this summer. Maybe it could be tomorrow. Who knows? There's trades happening right now, probably. I'm your host, Andrew Schlecht. With me, Dave DeFore. Which is not. It's not often that Dave is on a podcast. He's not hosting, so he just gets true. I love it.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm like, looking at my phone right now, I'm like, wow. This is what it's like.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yep.

[F]

Yes. Yes.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Esper Henny as well. The NBA Daily Crew. Guys, Game six. We'll start with Zena Xena. What are your expectations for Game six?

[Xena]

Oh, they've been dramatically lowered now that Tyrese Halliburton has been predicted to potentially be out. If anything, I just feel like OKC is gonna. Is gonna come out feeling really good. Put their final stamp on this. Everything we have seen, everything we have applauded all season long is just going to be on display. It's going to be like, you know, at the end of a firework show where they just go pop and it's just like all the fireworks all at once. That's what I'm expecting out of okc.

[Dave DeFore]

We got more sound effects out of Xena. Yeah, I know. I keep doing this could not be starting out better.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's kind of awesome.

[Dave DeFore]

I like it.

[Xena]

I gotta stop.

[F]

We need Joshua to do the same thing.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. Is this. Is this one of those scenarios where all the fireworks go off at once? Is that what I mean?

[Xena]

Yeah, it's like at the. I don't know. When I was growing up in North Carolina, we went to the state fair a lot.

[Dave DeFore]

Grand finale.

[Xena]

One of the day. It's the grand finale. After hours of fireworks, everyone sits and it's just like an explosion of all the things you saw, every color, every stream, every everything. And you're just like shocked and amazed.

[Dave DeFore]

The guy, the. The person out on the. On the barge or whatever, setting the fireworks, what. The way that started is the first guy that was doing that just got bored. He's like, oh, my God, this is too much. It's going on too long. Let me just set them off.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They're gonna.

[Dave DeFore]

They're gonna love it if I just set these all off at once. They're gonn right.

[Xena]

That's great.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, that's got to be what it is, because, I mean, who can sit through that? Like, fireworks shows are long as it is. Imagine if they just continuously set off that many.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I don't know. Wait, wait.

[F]

How did we get to this?

[Andrew Schlecht]

You.

[Xena]

We went way off on.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm not into fireworks. Fireworks are just, like, loud.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You watch it.

[Xena]

That's what I expected here.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's once a year. You can't sit through it once a year.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay, well, wait, wait, wait. Now, I'm from Virginia, so we would have fireworks for everything. The state fair, the crab carnival, you.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Know, don't mention the crab as if it's something we know.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[F]

What is a crab carnival?

[Andrew Schlecht]

What does that mean?

[Dave DeFore]

Crab carnival. So the. The town that I. That I went to high school, Shout out West Point, the Pointers. That was our mascot. Pointer dog.

[F]

Go Pointers.

[Dave DeFore]

Pointer dog. Bird dog. Right. A lot of. A lot of bird hunting out in that area. Tidewater area of Virginia. So we have the Crab carnival every October because the best crab in the world is from that region. You know, the Chesapeake Bay. Really? Blue crab. Delicious. Yeah.

[F]

Wow.

[Dave DeFore]

So we have Crab Carnival, you know, with a nice parade through town. We have two stoplights in that town, by the way. Yeah, a McDonald's and a Hardee's.

[F]

Nice.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. One gas station. Although, actually I think there's two now. I haven't been there in a while, but I think that there's two now in town. But. Yeah.

[Xena]

And apparently fireworks.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, and fireworks. Yeah, of course. Well, the thing is, you have. So it's at the confluence of. Of two rivers where they become the York River. And so you have all this water there. It's a great place to watch fireworks. Right. Like you always wanted over water. So any excuse to make things go bang in Virginia, we took the opportunity. So Fourth of July, we were out on the river and so were the fireworks. Right. Like, I mean, we were just. I mean, sometimes you just are out in the woods.

[F]

Can we get a sound effect?

[Xena]

I don't. I don't even know. Like, I mean, there's exactly. There's so many different ways that people in Virginia make things go bang.

[Dave DeFore]

Exactly. Yeah. I don't know which route on any given. You may do all of them. Right. Like, we were. We were open to a good time as long as there was loud noise involved, anyway. Okay, so. But to your point, though. Yeah. Game six. Now that Andrew's not Here, let me, let me put the hat on.

[Xena]

I answered Andrew's question.

[Dave DeFore]

Yes, I know. And I took this off the rails. The coffee is just kicking in.

[Xena]

I love it.

[Dave DeFore]

So game six. Yeah, I mean, it's a little. It does feel a little anticlimactic. I mean, this is why they play the games, of course. Like, we're. I don't. Our. Our sentiment about it doesn't really change what happens. We still may get an exciting game. We still could get game seven. You know, I'm not willing to write the Pacers off completely just because of how we feel about it. You know what I mean? I, I think that this is still a good team if they, if they have to play around Halliburton. I mean, that's the tricky part, right, is I think that there's a point in which he hurts him by being out there. If he's ineffective like he was the other night, you know, to be a decoy, I, I think in, in the NBA, it's. You just can't do that in, in the playoffs at all. Like, being a decoy doesn't work. You're really just playing without a guy and 4 on 5 offense. It's just not going to work.

[F]

Well, all due respect, I'm also attacking him if I'm okay. See, on defense, like, I'm going at him, I'm hunting him out. Yeah, I'm targeting him. I'm making sure that he's working on defense. So that makes it that he's less. Less effective. I don't know if there's a world in which I see the Pacers winning the series, but you know what's crazy? Well, winning game six, I would say.

[Dave DeFore]

Right, right.

[F]

What It. If there's one way they can do it. You know, I don't know if you guys have watched the Avengers and Doctor Strange does the one way thing. The one, one thing I think if there's one way they do it is if TJ McConnell has an insane game, isn't that incredible?

[Xena]

Isn't that crazy to say no?

[F]

Isn't that crazy Here, come out of my mouth. TJ McConnell could save the Pacer season.

[Dave DeFore]

He's already had some insane games. I mean, yeah, there's a. There's a real trap here with the. The thought of. Okay, that's all right. We got TJ McConnell, who normally plays 18 minutes a night.

[F]

He's now 30.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, now he's gonna play 30, and he can't play it the same way. Like, part of what makes him so special is that he doesn't play that much, and he gives you.

[F]

Robinson thing.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, right. He gives you 100%, like, full blast all the time. Right. Like, this is why he comes in and he create so much chaos. And why, I think, like, even. Even closing with him down the stretch, he's not as effective. Like, he's just doesn't have the same amount of energy. And so I. I think there is a little bit of a trap there. I mean, maybe the move is just put Ben Shepard in the. In the starting lineup, right? And you just say, hey, we're going to be short a man, but at least we're going to lean defensively. Here. We got another guy who can guard Shay, theoretically. So that. That whole. Like, with shepherd and Nemhardt, you can switch a little bit easier, I think, than you can with him and Nismith.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

And maybe you go that way and you just say, hope, you know, we get enough shots out of the rest of the guys, but then you don't have enough ball handling. Because I don't really think Ben Shepard has done a great job, especially in this series. Nemhard, you know, after a rough game five, like, what does he look like from a confidence standpoint? I mean, typically, he's a guy who's. Whose handle you can rely on. But I. I do think, like, there's a. There's a trap for us, right? Like, I don't think that the. The Pacers coaching staff are going to fall into this, but there's a trap to be like, okay, let's just turn on that. Let's turn that nozzle of T.J. mcConnell up a little bit more. Go from 22 minutes to 32 minutes. It just.

[Xena]

It.

[Dave DeFore]

It doesn't extrapolate.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No, that's. That's like saying, like, man, ice cream's so good, I'm just gonna eat it for every meal, you know?

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

He's trying to just get me. He wants me to rant about ice cream. Is that what's happening?

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's incredible in short spurts in your life.

[Xena]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But if it's like. If that becomes the main thing, it's like, you know what? This. This kind of. Isn't it?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, ice cream and not fair to TJ McConnell to put them in that position. Let's be honest.

[Xena]

You guys ever take economics and the concept of utils? You guys, I'm talking about that. No utility.

[F]

Like, are you talking about.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, like.

[Xena]

Yeah, but that's what. In economics, it's like, basically the concept Is. Is like if you are craving a hamburger and you finally get that.

[F]

Oh, yes, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

[Xena]

And you, like, take a bite of the hamburger. That first bite. From the. From the first bite to the second bite, the utils go down. The. The ability of it to satisfy diminishing returns.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right?

[Xena]

There's diminishing return. Exactly. And so I feel as if the. You know, you get those spurts, you get that third quarter out of TJ McConnell, you get those spark plug moments out of TJ McConnell, because you need it at that first bite. You can't go through the full burger and expect that same level of spark and that same level of impact from him, especially because, you know, he's not on the younger side when it comes to the personnel in Indiana. But overall, you just use them for a little bit, Bring him back out. Use them for a little bit, bring him back out. I think that's the best. I mean, that's how he comes off the bench, and he's had such a long career being able to do that.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, it. They're just in a tight spot. I mean, when your second best player is just a zero on both ends, I just don't know how you. How you win basketball games.

[F]

Yeah, yeah. They need. They need, like, out of body experience from Pascal that's like.

[Dave DeFore]

And Obi Toppin. Yeah, but they need another. They need another game. One from obitop. They pretty much need everybody. Yeah, again. Right. They need another night where they have six guys with 12 points.

[F]

I will say, though, these are the type of games that the Pacers usually end up the. The games where they have zero chance of winning, you know?

[Dave DeFore]

I know. And then the ones that they're supposed to win.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Matheran, too.

[F]

Yep.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, he's had some good games at home. If he had another 27 point outing, I was just gonna say something like they'd have a shot. They would have a shot. But this is where. And this is where you look at all these younger guys, because there's a lot of young guys on both squads. It's like, how do they handle this? Because this is where the pressure is the most for both teams. Ton of pressure for OKC to close it out. Ton of pressure for Indiana to not lose. And so who. Who's able to step up? You know, I think that you can count on Pascal and Shea, and I think J Dub has probably earned us saying that he'll step up, but, you know, Casey Wallace has had one good game in this series. I Think it's going to be interesting. Ben Matheran is up and down. Like you don't know what you're going to get from him. You know who, who shows up. Do we get another three threes from Cason or do we get another 25 from Ben Mather? And I think that honestly determine what happens.

[Dave DeFore]

The guys that have been a little like, and it's been a little under the radar that they've been relatively ineffective offensively is Nemhardt, Nismith and Turner. Yeah, very little out of those guys. You know, Neesmith. Look, part of that is his role, right? Like, sometimes he's going to touch the ball, sometimes he's not. And, and, but with Turner, he gets touches and he's getting shots. He's just not making them. You know, that three is not falling for him. He's, he's not really been forceful inside. Like this isn't a team where he's able to get a mismatch and, and do anything. And that's where I think they got to go away from those guys and give Pascal more touches. Right. If those guys aren't able to score, like they got to just get away from them early and say we're going to clear out, let Pascal work a little bit. Maybe they go a little slower in the half court. Yeah, you know, I know that they don't want to do that anymore, but they have that, you know, that Pascal button is there. They can hit it 30 times. I mean, he, he will, he will shoot 30 times if they let him.

[F]

I will say there, there was a stretch from the start of October till January, probably like early January where Halliburton was not as effective. The back issue was plaguing him. I remember we talked about it like December. Yeah, it was about like the first couple of months of the season that, where he was a little bit less effective. And the home and away splits and all that type of stuff about Halliburton was being talked about and is, was that just a one hit wonder type of season? They did put the ball in Pascal's hands more and that's what got him an all star birth. That's why they, they leaned on him more offensively. So maybe that helps them. There's a little bit of muscle memory here where it's like, okay, we know how to play without Halliburton being the most effective guy. Let's lean into that identity that we had for the first couple months of the season where we kind of did stay afloat. But is that enough in the NBA? Finals against games, you know, in game six. And I don't know about that. That's my thing. And to your point about Miles Turner, his. He's had moments here. We've talked about it. In game one, where he had that fourth quarter. I believe it was game three as well, where he had a really impressive fourth quarter, but for the most part has been pretty ineffective in this series. And the pick and pop stuff isn't working right now. They're hunting him out in on defense. They're making. You know, the fact that the Pacers are playing such aggressive pick and roll defense with Turner involved, I just. I don't. I don't know why we're not getting more from Miles. Maybe it is a lingering injury or something like that that we haven't been reported, but it's just. It's tough to see this Pacers team getting anything or winning this game without Miles Turner having a massive impact. And they haven't had that for, you know, six games now.

[Dave DeFore]

He's had defensive moments. Right. But he hasn't. He hasn't had a. A 1720 point.

[F]

Exactly.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. Like, and, and honestly, like, his rebounding hasn't been. Yeah.

[F]

He's averaging three rebounds in the finals. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

So he's just not really.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Is it that surprising?

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, a little bit. A little bit.

[F]

Can we at least get six?

[Xena]

Right?

[Dave DeFore]

Like, it's a little bit surprising to me.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like, that's.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, it is.

[F]

That's true.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. And he's going and he's blocking shots. Right. Like, that's the thing is he is contesting a lot of shots. So Pascal winds up with a lot of those, you know, those rebounds on the back side. But it. You got to get more than three. Like, this is. He's got.

[F]

He is also dealing with that respiratory thing. Mike Weisberg just mentioned that in the comments. Like, that is. That is absolutely fair. But at the same time, it's just.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, I like reasons for. Why don't, like, change the fact that he has been bad and, and then like, it's like Halliburton was bad in the last game. I mean, granted, he's got a calf strain. I don't know what we should expect, but it doesn't change that he did not make a basket.

[Xena]

I don't know if I would use the word bad for Miles Turner because, like, if you're looking at his stats, like, it's clear that OKC is doing their job in reducing the amount of shots that he typically took throughout the season. Like, he averaged about seven threes a game almost, or six or seven threes a game. During the regular season and throughout these playoffs, he's been. And that's not just okc, but throughout these playoffs, that number has dropped, but particularly his significantly dropped against okc. They pick and pop of. Of, you know, denying that pick and pop. However, even on. Not even the pick and pop, even in transition, you're seeing Miles Turner be at the top of the key, acting as a screener, you know, acting as someone to get Ty Tyrese Haliburton open. He's acting as a person to kind of swing the ball to the other side. He's not looking for his shot as much.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Xena]

And I feel like that has nothing to do with OKC as much as his ability to be like, let me be aggressive in these moments. But those moments during the regular season would have been a trail. Three would have been, you know, an opportunity for him to pull up. So I do think that he's trying to fit whatever is best for Indiana, and that's why I struggle to say that he's been bad, because his numbers aren't that different than what he was doing throughout the regular season, other than the rebounding, that's for sure. But I just think that he's not looking for his own shot as much. But I don't know if that's like him being bad versus him doing what he thinks is best for the team and like the scheme of what they're trying to. You know, what they're trying to scheme for, which is get Tyrese open or get Pascal open. But if he can get those threes up, like where Hartenstein's Chet have to respect him, that opens so much space up for Pascal to absolutely operate, right? So they're there.

[Dave DeFore]

Part of it is he gets. He gets them in this trap where the ball is stuck out above the top of the key, right? And you'll have three pacers up there with the. The Thunder basically doing their. Their blitz. Krieg, you know what I mean? Like, they are attacking the ball. And so instead of diving toward the basket and being aggressive like you talked about, I mean, he's got a mid range, right? Like we. That's a shot that he can get to. Instead of diving, looking for opportunities to cut, he's kind of stuck in this thing where it's gonna get into a DHO hot potato game. And that. That's a thing that's been killing them. Like you mentioned, they're not getting. I don't think he's Getting into position for the trail three often enough. Too many times he, he winds up at top of the key shot clock expiring and he's got the grenade he has to throw up. So some of this is, is on him for not being more aggressive in hunting these spots. But a part of it is and, and again, I don't want to overlook this in how bad Nemhart and N. Smith and Turner have been offensively. The Thunder have been a nightmare for those guys. Yeah, every single time those guys have tried to put the ball in the ground, it's all arms swinging at them and, and they just don't care about the fouls. Right. Like, I mean, shout Out. Fred Katz wrote a really great story about this and, and with Eric Name and I think Sam Amick was in on it as well. Over at the Athletic where they talked about the way that OKC uses fouling to their advantage. Like they don't mind putting you on the free throw line because, you know, who cares?

[F]

You can't call everything like we talked.

[Dave DeFore]

About this at playoffs, right? Raising the level of a foul to the point where essentially like you're gonna hear the contact before you get a whistle has, has really allowed them to push those guys so far out. So it's two sides of the coin, right? I think OKC has done such a great job defensively against those guys in particular. Like the one guy has been able to get going consistently. Well, two guys that have gotten going consistently is Pascal Siakam and TJ McConnell. Two unstoppable forces of nature for some reason. And, and outside of, you know, Halliburton has what, one good game, maybe two one and a half good games. I, I think we could say. And otherwise it's been non existent. So you know, it. A lot of it is OKC has just been dominant. I mean they've really owned the, the margins.

[F]

I also like, man, I think offensively something has changed for OKC because they're just involving J Dub way more like the, the usage rate has gone through the roof every single game of this series. His usage has gone up every single game of this series. His drives have up the screening for from SGA on J Dub to make that switch happen or for him to get downhill like this is. This is the adjustment that they did. It's hey, let's get our two best players involved in an action offensively and it will be very, very hard for the Pacers to try and stop this. That to me has flipped the series equally as much as the defensive Side because I think the defense is what you can rely on. The question has always been, how can OKC generate quality looks offensively, consistently, and they've now found a way to do that. Well.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Shay is, like, just sprinting to the basket every single time he wants to. Yeah.

[F]

Yeah. And then he's averaging 20 drives a game in the finals.

[Dave DeFore]

This guy is insane. Yeah. Right now.

[F]

It's nuts, man.

[Dave DeFore]

It's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And.

[Dave DeFore]

And then the shot making. It feels like his shot making has gone up as the playoffs has gone on and he's making some of these 17 footers. Like, I mean, Miles Turner. I mean, he hit one over Miles Turner. I'm just like, I. What are you gonna do there?

[F]

You know, Jordan and Scotty Pippen, man, it's.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't. I mean, I hate to. I hate to even feel that way, but, like.

[F]

But J Dub really does play. Like. No, the no dunks guys, they talked about it. The no Ducks guys, they talked about it with. With J Dub, like, looking like Scotty Pippen and how he can play the cutting, the off ball stuff, the driving, the playmaking. It's just the defense, obviously, he pairs perfectly.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[F]

With what SGA needs from a secondary guy. And I mean, it's. It really. It's crazy because it's just the beginning for those two. So it's just.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[F]

I don't want to put too much good juju. I don't want to put too much good stuff.

[Andrew Schlecht]

No.

[Dave DeFore]

We're jinxing this. It's gonna be a game. We're gonna get a game seven.

[F]

I don't know.

[Dave DeFore]

Totally jinxing this.

[F]

Fireworks.

[Dave DeFore]

We've all been jinxing it because, like, every single person is after game five. And we do this with every game five, I think.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

The home team wins. Oh, it's over. It's done. They're. They're never gonna win game six.

[Xena]

Get closer to the mic. It's over.

[Dave DeFore]

They're never gonna do it.

[F]

Look, teams who win game five.

[Xena]

Two.

[F]

Two. 75%, man. I'm just saying, they win the series.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. And it. I mean, it's. This has been an incredibly close series. Thunder fans have felt incredibly nervous throughout this series. You know, indie steals game one. OkC returns the favor in game four. But, like, this has been close. I mean, that game five was within two points.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, it got. It was. It was getting hairy.

[Dave DeFore]

There's a lot of. There's a lot of mcconnelling respect going on in this series. Right. I feel like maybe that's something that that we could hit on. That's missing. There's no bad blood between Pacers fans and Thunder fans.

[Andrew Schlecht]

There's really not. The thing that should be is probably like the T.J. mcConnell stuff.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

But as long as the Thunder win, everybody's like, oh, that was kind of cool that he did that. You know, that's kind of how Thunder fans feel about it. So.

[Xena]

That's hilarious.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

What do you think that Thunders fans beef is with the. The national media?

[Andrew Schlecht]

Doris Burke, honestly.

[F]

Oh, because the free throw Merchant stuff.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. Doris Burke is like probably enemy number one in OKC right now.

[F]

Wow. Don't come out the ESPN truck.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Seriously. Like, who, like who else would it be? Because you look at.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I mean, Halliburton is just too likable, you know.

[F]

Well, apparently he's over, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Well, well, yeah, I. I mean, I, I actually, I tend to agree. Everybody in this series, all the players are likable. Yeah. Coaches are.

[F]

I mean, very likable.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, I mean, ish. I mean, at least one of them. Yes. And Rick Carlisle's done it long enough that you like, you respect him so much.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. There's no. I mean, I don't know. It's. It's. It's a. It's like a very nice NBA Finals.

[Xena]

I think it was, it was been nice since the conference finals. Like no one really hates anyone on Denver.

[F]

The Knicks and Pacers was kind of crazy. A little bit.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That was a little to it.

[F]

They did have mutual respect. I remember, I remember post game they were like, hey, we love this team. Etc. But yeah, the history.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm thinking more.

[Xena]

I feel like it's less the team. Exactly. I feel like that's what I hated. It's the fan base that is this.

[Dave DeFore]

Oklahoma City and, and indie. Right. Like this is like independent wrestling. Like indie wrestling. This would be like these guys are shaking hands in the ring before the match and you know, talking about honor. That's what this feels like to me.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Well, I think some of it is just the disposition that the Thunder take too at the podium. Because I think a lot of things get ramped up because of the podium.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like Finals. Like Draymond Green takes the podium. Like something's gonna happen. Like he's gonna say something. And he's always. And he's doing stuff on the court too. Like the Thunder. No. To like not use the podium as a place to create controversy. And so even to the point where like I'm just trying to get Jalen to say something Nice about himself. He had a great game.

[F]

You asked him about his 40 point game and he's like.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He's like, we need to put such a good bit, you know, it's such.

[Dave DeFore]

A good bit, though.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You just want to win one. Like, they just want to win it so bad and they don't want anything else getting in the way. Like, they don't want these, like, petty rivalries. Even if there is something between Shay and Nimhard, which I think, like, there clearly has been, like, some agitation, like, between the two of them.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

It's like. I don't know what you're talking about. You know, he's just. He's just not gonna say anything. You know, he pushed him. He got an offensive foul within, like the first three seconds of a game.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Who has that ever happened? Never. But you know what? Nothing's happening. I feel great. I love that guy. Good job.

[F]

Canadians.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know, Canadians.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I will say, to his credit, though, the guys that you want to, like, kill the most when you're playing against them are the guys that, you know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, the guys.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, those are the guys that. I mean, also the guys that you want to fight the most are the guys that, you know when you're playing. I mean, that's a real thing.

[F]

Yeah. Because you've played against them so much. I mean, Nemhard and Shea, they've. They've played against each other since they were like, 10, you know.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[F]

So they. They have a big history of playing against each other. There's also. Dave can come to Frontier City and watch fireworks on the 4th. We'll try to do better than the crab.

[Dave DeFore]

That's a. That's a hard. That's a.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's tough.

[Dave DeFore]

Carnival is. Is very well known event. Right. Not to be confused with the Urbana Oyster Festival, which is down the road. That's a different thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Constantly, I cannot stop. Like, I just.

[F]

Man, I'm. I'm kind of sad that I didn't know Virginia was a seafood type place, you know?

[Xena]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena]

We used to take summer vacation multiple.

[F]

Times and I've never been like, damn. Okay. I guess.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I used to fit. I grew up doing a lot of fishing. I mean, it's kind of like a Virginia thing. Noodling. You guys ever heard of that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where you use your fingers to catch catfish.

[F]

Oh, that's cool.

[Xena]

That is not what I called noodling.

[F]

I thought you meant. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Not could noodling.

[Xena]

Nope. I wasn't even thinking that. I mean, noodling for us was you get those styrofoam noodles.

[F]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Dave DeFore]

And yeah.

[Xena]

Float in a lake.

[Dave DeFore]

Thank you. Sorry.

[F]

That's exactly what I was.

[Dave DeFore]

I am from the country.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. You stick your hand in a hole.

[Dave DeFore]

And you wiggle your fingers. A dockfish.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yep.

[Dave DeFore]

And you grab and pull it out.

[F]

I mean, I kind of want to try that. Not gonna lie if people are pulling.

[Xena]

The opposite end of us.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Giant catfish. Like.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

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[Dave DeFore]

Whoa. I just found out you can earn up to 3% daily cash back on everyday purchases made with Apple Card.

[F]

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[Dave DeFore]

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[F]

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[Dave DeFore]

That's like endless plus one.

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[Andrew Schlecht]

Monsters.

[F]

I've never gone fishing, but I feel like fishing with your hand is another level. You know that.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, honestly, like, no matter what kind of fishing you do, you wind up using your hands. So.

[F]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

I would just say noodling. I'm not like, that's not my favorite kind of fishing. It's not the, it's not the best. It's. It's. I don't know. And there's like water moccasins out there where, where I'm from, so, you know, there's other stuff that's not catfish that you don't want to run into. Also. You should go gigging for frogs. That's. That's a whole thing where you, you have a trash bag and you catch frogs in. Inside the trash.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What are you doing with the frogs? What are you doing with the frogs?

[Dave DeFore]

Frog legs, man. They're delicious.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't eat them anymore, but, you know.

[F]

Yeah, I've never had frog legs. Yeah, see, I'm with Xena on this one. I don't know if I'm gonna have frog legs. To be honest with you. I can't do it.

[Dave DeFore]

They're really good. I mean, I believe you. It tastes like chicken.

[F]

I believe you.

[Xena]

G. Any question this, like, randomly came to mind. You know how in this whole series, you know, it's. We're, we're Pawn Game six and there's this whole conversation around the stars and everything and Andrew, you were just talking about disposition and how poised.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Really.

[Xena]

I would say the thunder. But also, you know, Indiana has been as well. And it's. This is going to be such a. A Turner of a conversation. We are going to go off, off topic here, but it's making me think throughout the dynastic run of the warriors.

[F]

Let'S have the conversation.

[Xena]

Let's just be real. You think of the Big Three over that, over that course of time and even think, you know, include Kevin Durant in that mix. Like, Steph wasn't this personality, right? He was very. He was very steady. He was very poised. He's very stoic in the same way that we've described Shay Klay. Thompson wasn't either. Right. You know, Clay Thompson would be folding up his paper airplanes out of the box score and like keep it steady. And it's making me realize Draymond, though, the marketing power of Draymond, like, well, he was, I don't think. Right. But I'm just saying, like we keep saying not we. I'm not even say we. People keep saying get Draymond out of the league. Whenever he does these things, right. He has these acts, he has these things that happen. And yet we are seeing the same people that call for Draymond needing to be expelled and being suspended and needing to leave and just being done and being rid of him as a character in this NBA. Clearly he did something that made all of you want to tune in. Because if we are comparing these two teams, okc, Indiana, you remove Draymond from the Warriors. It was very similar. There wasn't these. They were steady guys that love to play basketball, that were really magical with the basketball and the things that they did, whether it was attacking the basket, their ability to shoot threes, the splash bros. Etc. It was very similar likable characters leading the team, putting the teams on their back young.

[Dave DeFore]

Let me only not LeBron, which was the big thing, right?

[F]

Yeah.

[Xena]

And they weren't the. These like caricatures of what athletes are. They're not. They weren't dripping in jewelry. They weren't doing all these crazy outfits or anything like that. The main thing that I'm seeing the difference was Draymond.

[Dave DeFore]

Also LeBron though. It's also LeBron. LeBron with LeBron, right? Yeah, 100%. So like if you had a scenario here for the Thunder where they maybe are up against I, I not the Celtics just from a personality standpoint, but maybe the Celtics because of what that team represented. Right. Like them winning the title last year. If they're playing the Thunder this year, the Thunder would maybe look like the young upstarts and you would have a different dynamic than, than what we've got. But that Is a pretty good point. Like, I'm with you. I think, though, a lot of that is Draymond used the LeBron foil to become Draymond as well. Right. Like antagonists there.

[F]

I'll just say this real quick. I think the warriors also became hated because of how good they were. Immediate. And that is happening to the Thunder a little bit too, where the. There are a lot of people who hate the way the Thunder play. In terms of the. Like you said, the physical defense, the foul merchantry from. From SGA that people claim, like that is something that's already a conversation with them. If they end up winning a couple, I could. I could see that easily being the same case for the warriors as it was for the. Well, as for the Thunder as it is for the warriors, because hate comes in a little different ways. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't necessarily have to be a Draymond type guy. People don't. Some people don't like SGA's game. I'm not in that camp. But there is a world in which there are guys who don't like the way he plays, you know?

[Xena]

But I think. I think you're absolutely right. I agree with everything you're saying. And I want. I guess I want to separate the conversation between hating the fact that they're so good or hating the way that they play versus this cultural conversation around. They're boring. Right, Right. People wanting or expecting them to not be so passive or seemingly passive. People wanting a little bit more energy or, you know, again, a caricature of what a bought in athlete looks like. And I'm like, these guys are. I don't want to call them boring, but they're just the steady.

[Dave DeFore]

Let's.

[F]

Let's do a comparison. Let's do a comparison. Like the Celtics, last year people called them boring. I think this year they called them boring. I don't know if people called OKC boring to the level that they called the Celtics boring. True.

[Dave DeFore]

I just don't know what. What do people want? I. I like for me, I do not care. Yeah, I don't care. I just want these guys to play basketball and then. And I love that these guys are what we call boring. It's great. You know what we don't have to deal with. None of these guys are going out, like, doing anything dumb after a game. I haven't heard about any of these guys being mean to their wife or girlfriend. You know what I mean? Like, I'm actually super into these nice guys. It's great the basketball is so awesome.

[F]

Their brand of basketball is awesome. I don't, I don't see the vision.

[Dave DeFore]

And so, like, in a lot of ways, you know, to the, to the comment here, this says, this is from Shad Zaman, maybe Z. I'm gonna try it both ways. They want Michael Jordan. In a lot of ways, these guys are more like Michael Jordan because I didn't, like, as a kid growing up, I didn't really know what Michael Jordan was doing when he wasn't playing basketball. The thing that made him compelling to me was that he was a killer for 48 minutes a night. And I'm watching these guys, and again, like, I, I. It's hard for me to do the whole, this is Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippen 2.0. Do it, man. It's been fun as hell to watch because that's what it's like, right? And so I, I don't. I think, like, part of them being, like, kind of sweet. You know what I mean? Like, they're sweet kids.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Chad is on SVP after the game, and all he wants to talk about is how great, you know, Jaylen Williams was like, I, I actually, I. I'm a basketball coach, so maybe I'm a little bit sentimental about this stuff. I've loved this series because they're nice guys and kind of boring. They're all about the basketball.

[Xena]

Right. So it seems, you know, And I guess the question is like a, you know, comment saying, like, yeah, they were playing against LeBron. I mean, even against the Celtics, like that, that was still a thing in which Steph was still who he was.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, by then, though, they're characters that, you know.

[Xena]

You know, they're right. They had been established as characters. Exactly. So I guess my point is, is that you need. In that point, it flipped. Right?

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Xena]

The warriors have been the established brand, and the Celtics were the up and coming.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Xena]

As opposed to the warriors being the up and coming brand. Going up against LeBron now, it feels like, okay, you can have an OKC and you can have an Indiana, but people don't want both.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Xena]

Going against each other. You need, like, some sort of an establishment.

[F]

You need a foil versus the.

[Dave DeFore]

I can take it back to professional wrestling. Okay. Because everything I learned about life, I learned from professional wrestling. It's not the heel. You need the established star. You need the entity.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

That person then builds the next star. Right?

[Andrew Schlecht]

You.

[Dave DeFore]

You put that person over, right?

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

So what the warriors were able to, like, what they did. They were the old champion against the up and comer. And the up and comer needs to lose first. Remember, everyone forgets Rocky loses in Rocky one, right. He loses in the first move. He doesn't win until the second one. And that, like, from a storytelling perspective, which is really like what we do, right? Like we're trying to interpret and tell the story of what happened from a storytelling perspective. The warriors had a great run and so did the Celtics because they lost one. Then they come back and win one. I mean, this.

[F]

Right, right.

[Dave DeFore]

This is the thing that we love about sports. We love to struggle. I mean, even Michael Jordan, he lost to the Pistons. I. I remember being almost in tears the last year they lost to the Pistons. Pistons. Because I was so tired of the Pistons dominating my Bulls. And then the next year they, they break through. And so, yeah, wrestling is written exactly right. It's written with the story in mind. But one of the reasons why we love sports is because it actually has good storytelling elements. If you pay attention to it.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Right. We're reward.

[Dave DeFore]

Rewarded for those that, that pay attention.

[F]

There's also like a unpredictability to sports, which adds that level of storytelling that gets heightened.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[F]

So with wrestling, you sort of know the tropes of what' happened. Whereas basketball, there are a thousand different tropes that we've seen throughout NBA history. And then these tropes kind of repeat themselves. History repeats itself.

[Dave DeFore]

Storytelling is storytelling. Like if you read the Epic of.

[F]

Gilgamesh compared to what it is now.

[Dave DeFore]

Yes, very similar to what, what we know.

[F]

Like, same thing, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Xena]

So now, with that in mind, these are now two teams that haven't been established and there's one team that has already gone through their kind of sad story. Right. OKC coming up short, wanting to get there. And there's this up and coming team in the Pacers that has the opportunity to do the unthinkable, to become the champion over the person, the team that had persevered and gotten themselves back to this. This opportunity to win it all. And so, you know, that's what Andrew wanted to ask us. Who would a championship mean the most to in terms of the storyline? Like, we could talk about it from the storyline, but we could also talk about it from this team. I think from a storyline perspective, Indiana winning would ruin the story in a.

[Dave DeFore]

Lot of ways, right?

[Xena]

It would ruin the story.

[Dave DeFore]

Well.

[Xena]

That'S right, exactly. And that's. Exactly. That's a story in itself. And I feel like that feels more weighted as far as, like, there's more weight on that to completely, not only disrupt and completely ruin OKC story, but then create your own. And now you're this, this champion that people are gonna be like, how the hell did you get there? We gotta come back and get you next year. Can you repeat again? What, you know what, how can you rebuild again? So I feel like that to me from a story perspective feels more heavy, more impactful.

[F]

Yeah.

[Xena]

But I do feel like it would mean to the team, to the franchise, to the fans, it would mean the most to OKC from that perspective of they had gone through these, this adversity to get back to where they were.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena]

And to be so close now.

[F]

You honestly answered that perfectly. Because I, I completely agree there. Like, I think the Pacers are exactly the, you know, the team of destiny stuff that we've talked about. The basketball gods being on their side, the run. I mean, statistically, if they won the championship, they would be the biggest underdog to ever a championship. That all adds to the story. It adds to the, to the lore of what this Pacer season was. Right. Whereas for okC, it's the dominant, it's like shot. Zaman also said OKC hasn't had to face many obstacles. They had one season where they really face an obstacle, and that was last year, right? They lost last year. They now bounce back this year in a major way and one win away from a championship. To them, this is about certifying everything that they've done this season. It's the 68 win team. It's the team that was the number one defense in the league, one of the best defenses we've seen. It's SGA cementing himself as an mvp like that is the, to your point, the prototypical story that you see in sports, right? The dominant team that goes out and finishes the job. I think that's equally good. But also like, if you, if you zoom out and look at OKC history and how for years it was okay, they moved from Seattle to okc, and the Seattle lost out on these stars and Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook and James Harden and that team with the young guys, right? The youth developed in a way that they led themselves to the finals. And three MVPs came out of that core, right? And yet no championships to speak of, Right. Nothing to look for. And they still find a way to chug along. They get Paul George, they get Russell Westbrook. That leads them to this era. And to me, that looks at like what OKC has been over the last, you know, however many, right.

[Dave DeFore]

Over a decade yeah.

[F]

Over a decade. Right. 2008. Like. Like, this is what it's meant to them for this entire stretch of their franchise to get to this point, to win a championship again with a young core. So it's kind of poetic. It's like, you get to the point where you. You can do it all again and kind of redeem yourself for the 28,008 to 2013 core that you had, you know?

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena]

I'm gonna speak just also from. I'm gonna. I'm gonna put myself in the shoes of an OKC player, which are big shoes, but obviously, I didn't play in the NBA. I played basketball, played sports, and I. I can't get with. They haven't had any obstacles. I can't. It's hard to be excellent. It is incredibly difficult to be consistently dominant, to get that far in last year's season and to do it all over again and find yourself in the same position. Like. Like, that is not easy to do. Sure. The. When you think about the opponents, maybe you think about, you know, they've had relatively really great health. That. Sure. But to be. To show up, to not have problems in your locker room, to not have problems within your organization, to all those are those. That's not easy to do. Like, we cannot underestimate that.

[Dave DeFore]

It takes hard work to make it look so easy.

[Xena]

That's what I think it. Exactly. I think that they. They put on a really good face for all of us to be like, man, it's been pretty easy for them. Like, they have not any. Like. Like, no, no, no. I think that fans. And I'm not saying this, like, I'm not ragging on us. I think that fans.

[F]

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Yeah.

[Xena]

People. Right? That's. I mean, that's a real obstacle. But, like, I think people forget that when people are so excellent, they think it's easy. And I. The only reason I say this is because I remember Klay Thompson leaving the warriors and, you know, him talking about what he put into that team, and everyone thinks that they had such an easy walk for those six years that they went to the finals, and. And they were winning Western Conference finals, and they were just running through like, it was not easy behind closed doors. Right? And so I think that that's. I just always want to, like, drop that in.

[F]

I'll just.

[Xena]

Not easy. Y' all.

[Dave DeFore]

Just to.

[F]

Just to respond to that, I will say, like, I think the one thing that I would add to that is the obstacles for them also came their rebuild it was. Can we keep Shay Gilders Alexander happy? Is he bought in to what we're building here? Are they going to nail these picks that they had and first of all, like, bring in the characters that they need to become the type of character, high character team that they are right now. It's getting the right coach and allowing him to develop and learn and all that type of stuff. So those are obstacles in its own right. I didn't mean to take away from that, but I mean, like, from. From the sense of, like, elimination and all that, I would say their biggest obstacles probably happened this year. Denver.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[F]

Taking them to seven. Yeah. Growing up, I think like that, that game where they got blown out by Minnesota and then responded in a huge way, that was their growing up game. And I honestly, I think even in these finals we can say they've had moments where they've grown up and they've faced obstacles and delivered. So, yeah, obstacles are part of the championship run. There's no question about that. I. I can't take away from that at all.

[Dave DeFore]

How many games have they won? What is it, 80? 82? 81?

[F]

Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Well, more actually. Right, 80. You know, three. 83. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. And I mean, they, you know, they lost in the play in, you know, two years ago. That Dallas loss stung that group really bad. Really, really bad. You know, you think about how close that series was. You know, they were a PJ Washington foul from Shang, you know, from going to game seven back in okc and then, like, who knows what happens? And the fact that it was Shay that committed the foul. It's funny because, like, sometimes these, like, really bad things that happen are almost like what you need to happen in order to take the step you need to take. I thought it was good for Shay to have that moment. Like, I thought it was, like, genuinely good for him. I thought it was also good for J Dub to struggle against Dallas.

[F]

Yes.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And for them to have to figure it out. And the offense was horrible as it has been against Indiana. It's not like, oh, my gosh, they figured everything out since that game, since that against Dallas, but they have figured out how to make adjustments. I think Mark did not adjust well against Dallas either. Yeah, I think Mark had to grow, you know, throughout the summer for that and has had to grow throughout the playoffs too. I mean, there's been growing pains that have happened for this team in real time and because of their talent level and the way that they treat the days off in between games, I think they've been able to get there because they very much value the days off in between. And trying to get not only physically right, but mentally right in those margins is something that they're really big on. And so I, I agree with a lot of what you guys have said, and a lot of it is like, their front office values the people they bring in almost over. Over a lot of things that other teams don't, you know, value. Like, they value the kinds of people they're bringing in the organization. And so that's a huge piece of it, too, is that you bring in resilient people that have a resilient nature to them. It makes it easier for the team to be resilient. And so I think they have a lot of those guys. I mean, you look up and down the roster. I think. I think the same could be said for Indiana.

[F]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They both have all these undrafted guys or guys that have been counted out, guys that weren't supposed to be here. There are plenty of those guys. They have two. The two star point guards weren't supposed to be star point guards. You know, people didn't think that that's what they were going to be. And so I do think that, like, the DNA of both teams, it's not an accident that they're here. And like the DNA of both teams and the way that they've been constructed and the chip on the shoulder of so many of these guys in the resiliency, which I think is like, the key thing, is the reason that both teams are sitting here in the finals and we're going into a Game six.

[Dave DeFore]

And honestly, the way the Pacers built their team, we don't talk about enough.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, there's all this. This talk about the only way small markets can build is through the draft.

[F]

No.

[Dave DeFore]

Get lucky in free agency somehow or something like that. And they managed to do it through some good drafting without a high draft pick and with timely trades. Right. Like, they've just done a really good job of maximizing every single piece that has come through the door. That, that Pascal Siakam trade has. Is one of the best trades that anyone's made in the last five years.

[F]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Now they have all the draft picks back.

[F]

Dude, they. They have all the draft picks back. They gave up basically the 19th pick pick, the 23rd pick, and the 20. Whatever pick that will be the 2026 pick next year for Pascal. Like, that's. Yeah, that's an incredible deal.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And if I'm Pacers gm, every night, my prayer ends this Way. And thank you, God, for the Kings, you know.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, man. Everybody says that.

[F]

Oh, man. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena]

We think that the. The run that OKC has had has a little bit more. People are a little bit more impressed with it or have a little bit more emphasis on it because they've done it in the west that's stacked versus Indiana. That did it in the East. That's not as much. I mean, I remember Indiana got swept last year, right. By Boston, and they are now in the same position. They beat the Knicks again, which they did last year as well. And I feel like people are just like this year feels more impressive because they were, you know, they were lower in the rankings. They were not supposed to get this far, essentially, especially in Boston still, you know, now not being in the conversation. So I just wonder like, even though these teams have had similar runs, at least in the last two seasons, not overall, they've had similar runs the last two seasons, found themselves in similar places. Like, it feels as if we're more impressed with OKC or there's more light shown on what they've done because they had to do it against the west. That felt insurmountable. And they were dominant in the west at that, whereas the east felt like it was always going to be between four or five teams. And Oak and Indiana.

[Dave DeFore]

Cleveland doesn't have the same juice that. That Denver has because they.

[Xena]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

Yokage. Right. And then.

[Xena]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

You get a diminished Celtics team that don't. That they don't make it past the Knicks.

[F]

Indiana is pro. I mean, I don't know how you guys feel about this, but I would probably put Indiana neck and neck next year to like, as the number one favorite to come out of the East.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, if you just look at what they were when they were healthy this year, they were the best team in the east after Neesmith got back in the lineup. I mean, they were fantastic to end the year. If you think about how they finished, I expect them to start more like that next year season.

[F]

And they just traded for their trade pick back. They now have all of their picks available to them to make a trade, to make a big splash if they want to. I'm not saying, you know, they're going to go out and get Giannis. Maybe they do. Maybe they do. Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But like something else, someone else, you know, we just saw a team in Orlando trade for Desmond Bain, and we didn't expect that to happen, but everybody's available Everybody's available.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Well, and I. But I pulled up that graphic a few weeks ago about, like, paying the luxury tax. Do we believe, like, when we're talking about them making a trade? Yeah, I think it's more about. Man, that is more of a managing payroll move.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Like, hey, let's have our picks so that we can pay somebody very little to play on this roster. Like, we believe in our scouting department, and we're not gonna resign.

[F]

Miles Turner. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't think the mall business is doing well right now. Not. Not well enough to be.

[F]

Is that what the owners do? Is that malls, really? Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Really?

[F]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Oh, that's definitely not doing well, Simon.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[F]

Oh, right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You ever go into a mall, like, in the last, like, few years and just be like, no, they gonna sell this stuff? I do that. I've done that many times.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. No, actually, I went into Rain Falls, Montana, and it was like, a mall. Like, it looked like it was 1988 inside.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

There was car. Yeah.

[F]

I actually went to a mall in Virginia that was exactly the same way.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Ghost towns.

[Dave DeFore]

Where'd you go? Crystal City. Where were we?

[F]

I can't remember where it was, man. I'm sorry. I have no idea. But I was looking for. I was looking for a dress for my wife. Anyways, whatever. We couldn't find the dress. It didn't work out.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

He's looking for clothes for his wife. It's amazing. Okay, before we go, let's. Let's talk about a trade that we'd like to see or even. Even a team that you would like to see get in the mix this summer that is, like, a deal away or a player away from being a legitimate, like, title contender. A team that could push for conference finals.

[Dave DeFore]

I got one.

[Andrew Schlecht]

All right, let's hear it, Dave. All right.

[Dave DeFore]

A lot of KD trades out there. KD to the Denver Nuggets.

[F]

Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. I love it.

[F]

I want it to happen.

[Dave DeFore]

If Kevin Durant's serious about wanting to win a title and. And, you know, like, go to an organization where it's not all about him. Go play with Jokic.

[F]

Yeah. I mean, we've been talking about bad offers, Denver's when it comes to KD and, like, the weak offers that they have. Denver does not have a much. Much to offer either.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

What would the deal be?

[F]

It's like, Michael Porter Jr. All of those young guys, and the one pick that they have available. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's. That's gross.

[Dave DeFore]

Maybe you try to rope in Memphis now that they've got, they've got KCP and they've got Phoenix, that 20, 26 pick. Right. Maybe you can pull something there where you know, hey, get your pick back. And I, I'm just not sure how to do it. But either that or hey, how about Kevin Durant? Try to get yourself to Milwaukee, go to a good team. That's all I'm asking.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. Milwaukee would be very interesting.

[F]

Yeah, well, it would be because like what if, what if the Suns just get a bunch? Well, they don't have the. Nobody here is. Nobody has the picks. Yeah, the Bucks don't have enough to offer here. That's the issue.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's the problem.

[F]

Can I, can I throw out something a little bit off the wall here? I, I please unlikely that it happens. Why we' this everybody's talking about KD spurs. Right. The spurs should go after Kevin Durant. But there are two names that I would highlight if I was the spurs and in a Desmond Bainey type of way, call these teams and ask about them. One of them is Derek White from the Boston Celtics and the other one is Lowry marking from the Utah Jazz. I don't know if there would be enough to do the market and trade if they're not willing to. To, you know, add the visels and whatnot to. To do it. They obviously have the pick capital to trade for him. The, the team that I'm interested. The, the player that I'm interested for if I'm San Antonio is Derek White. Because you need those type of players to compete for a championship. You need that like two way guard who can defend. I think he would fit perfectly next to any of their guys. He's on an excellent deal. And Boston actually one of their picks is owned by San Antonio. So they, they could swap that, add a couple more picks, add a player, maybe Devin Vassell.

[Dave DeFore]

That's a lot of, that's a lot of mouths to feed if you're gonna keep de' Aaron Fox and Stefan Castle and that pick. Yeah, that's the only thing is that, you know. Yeah, they would have a lot of guards.

[F]

They would have a lot of guards. That is true. Yeah. I just, I, I like, I like Derrick White on that.

[Dave DeFore]

What about a Jaren Jackson trade should like if you're, if you're Memphis. I mean it got harder to, to give them that full max because like obviously they've, they've got a, to make another move I think on their books. But if you're thinking about blowing it up, like would you call up Utah and say, hey, what's so crazy?

[Xena]

You said that. I was just thinking that.

[Dave DeFore]

I was literally marketing that.

[Xena]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[F]

Okay. So, like, the fifth pick for.

[Dave DeFore]

For Jackson Jr. And, you know, unfortunately need more stuff. Unfortunately, you would have to take some of Utah's players, which nobody wants.

[F]

Yeah. Like a Walker, Kessler.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[F]

Jordan Clark. I don't know. Whoever.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, Clarkson.

[F]

Yeah. Isaiah Collier. I don't know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Where does that put Utah at that point? Like, they're not making the playoffs, but.

[F]

You got to start somewhere. You got to do something. You know? You got to do something.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yes, you do, but, like, not that. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

I keep thinking the. The Kings and John Morant feel like.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, no, no, don't. Don't do this.

[Dave DeFore]

Feel like a King's move.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Oh, yeah, it would. Over paper jaw. And it would be so. It would not. That would be really good.

[F]

Like Malik, Monk and demonte.

[Dave DeFore]

If you're Memphis and you just got this crazy offer for Desmond Bain.

[F]

Right.

[Dave DeFore]

You probably think, hey, I bet. What if we just call the Kings. What if we just put in one call to the King? Think. Just see what they're. What they think. John Morant plays 60 games a year, if you're lucky.

[F]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, this is me just being chaotic here, guys. But, yeah, I like it. I think Memphis. Memphis has. It has those two pieces, and they could, theoretically, in a West they are not going to compete in for the foreseeable future. They do not have the stuff. Stuff. Right. They have two pieces that could trigger a really quick reboot.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. You would think it could be quick, but the problem is, like, when you think about quick rebuilds, like the thunder of the model, of the quick rebuild they started.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay.

[Andrew Schlecht]

They started the rebuild with Shea, who became this.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

And it's. It's. I mean, you have to really. When you decide to rebuild, you have to think, we're going to be Detroit and we're not going to be okc. The OKC thing is an anomaly in so many ways.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

So. But you could do what Detroit did, and you could be a team that is bad for six years, and then you emerge as a playoff team. Sure.

[Dave DeFore]

Was it only six?

[Andrew Schlecht]

I believe it was six.

[Dave DeFore]

It felt like.

[F]

It's hard to. It's hard to really not include the 2013-2019 stretch where they were just.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. But I'm. I'm just thinking about, like, when they finally decided to reset.

[F]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You know. Right. Like, full reset. Yeah. If you want to count the rest of that, then, like.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

You want to exist in purgatory forever, you can do what the Detroit did. But I do, I think that the way that they did their rebuild makes sense. And if you want to do it that way, sure. But my. If I'm Memphis, though, and we're thinking about expansion and we're thinking about teams that can survive in particular markets, I'd worry about doing that in Memphis.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I would worry about it.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know.

[Andrew Schlecht]

That's something that I would want to do.

[Dave DeFore]

I'd say this. I think that Jaren is the guy that if they were gonna move one of them, I think Jaren is the guy that they would keep. He's got to be the guy that's easier.

[F]

Yeah, that's true. But the value around jaw right now isn't great either. So it's like, what do you get?

[Xena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Let me get my, My crazy one off.

[F]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Xena]

S. To your point of who would I call for? I love Derek White. I love, I love your two options. I'm gonna add Denny Avdia.

[F]

Oh, I like that. I honestly like that.

[Xena]

I would call. I would call and see what's up with him, see what they're offering, what they want. And I'd also look at, I mean, to your Katie, to Denver Point. I, I get it. You want to win quickly, you want to win fast.

[Dave DeFore]

I.

[Xena]

I don't know. I feel like Kevin Durant feels like he probably's gonna play basketball until he's 44, and I feel like for that reason, I'd be like, kevin, go to the Pacific Northwest. You've been there once before. What's up with Portland? They got a lot of young people trying to build up. You know, I like the way Scoot's playing. Wow. Like, the way Shane Sharp is playing. I, I, I think that that's a young core right there that we keep forgetting about in the midst of the Houston Rockets.

[F]

I love the world.

[Xena]

I really like Portland, and I do feel like they need a little bit of veteran presence, and they need a little bit of organization. They need a little confidence boost to really. To rock with teams because they weren't in games all last year. They were in games, but they weren't able to close them out. And, yeah, I'd be interested. That's my. I, I think we forget about Portland, and I would love to see.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You think KD is, like, itching to play with DeAndre Ayton again?

[F]

He never played with him.

[Dave DeFore]

Did they play Call? No.

[Xena]

No, no. But I think he would be one of the ones to go for kd.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well.

[F]

Oh, well, that would be funny. The sun's trade back for Deandre Aiden, my goodness, that would be.

[Dave DeFore]

He should have been so good. Watch that guy run the floor and it's art. I mean, the way that he moves, like, he's got great touch on his jumper. He should be amazing. Yeah.

[F]

Storms, man. Ice storms.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. Just watch out for the ice.

[Dave DeFore]

You know what? Hey, know thyself. If you don't. If you don't know how to drive in ice, please stay home.

[F]

Honestly, valid as a person who deals with that eight months out of the year.

[Dave DeFore]

You're right. You should be driving in the ice to go to work.

[F]

Yep.

[Dave DeFore]

How about that? Don't die to go to work. It's a good, good rule of thumb.

[Andrew Schlecht]

If I'm. If I'm a team, if Jaren Jackson did become available, I'm. If I'm. If I'm Detroit, I would try to get him.

[F]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Detroit is a good thing.

[Xena]

There's an opportunity that actually is a team that is like one move away.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

But you know what, though? I honestly, like, what would Phoenix give up for Jaren. For Jaren?

[F]

KD Phoenix.

[Dave DeFore]

That doesn't. That doesn't work for me.

[F]

You want to take Bradley Beal? Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Bradley Beal does not want to move.

[F]

That's true. That's true also.

[Dave DeFore]

And by the way, I like Memphis. Memphis is a great place.

[F]

Yeah.

[Xena]

Would they get rid of their rookies?

[Dave DeFore]

Phoenix weather now, sophomores.

[F]

Oh, like a Ryan Dunn and like.

[Xena]

A Dun Agadaro thing.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Sure.

[Dave DeFore]

I like those guys. Yeah.

[F]

Yeah. I don't know if that. I don't know if that's. I don't know if Memphis is doing that, you know, like.

[Xena]

Yeah, I don't know. But Memphis really likes Jaylen Wells.

[Dave DeFore]

Move these guys. And by the way, we're gonna have Keith Parish, who hosts Grits and Grinds, the. The Memphis Grizzlies podcast. We're gonna have him on the show tomorrow to talk a little bit about the grizzly side of this because is. It is fascinating. They are at a bit of a crossroads if we're looking at it realistically. So I'm curious to see what, you know, somebody who's kind of plugged in on what's happening, has to think about it.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah, I love that. Another guy that if I'm Detroit, I would call New Orleans and try to overpay for Trey Murphy.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, that's another apparently the Trey Murphy market is extremely high.

[F]

Well, I could imagine, but, like, isn't. I would say it's probably the exact same as the Desmond Bay market.

[Dave DeFore]

Right.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Well, that's. That's. That was the price to be paid to keep that deal quiet.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I think with Trey Murphy, I mean, it's probably like Mikhail Bridges. It's like four firsts is where we want to start. And I just think that's insane.

[F]

That's a lot. But he's.

[Andrew Schlecht]

I would do it.

[F]

I'm a big Trey Murphy guy.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[F]

Honest with you, I think he's a star. Yeah, I agree.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[F]

I think. I think on the right team, he could be an all star. Like you put them on Detroit or someone else.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yep.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

And in two seasons, when we're talking about him the way we talk about Mikhail Bridges, hey, that's. That's just how it goes. Yeah.

[F]

It's the way it goes. Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah. Cade needs guys like that, though.

[Dave DeFore]

He does.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Yeah.

[F]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Can you imagine swapping out the. The Simone Fontechio.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Listen.

[F]

I'm sorry.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Always thinking about swapping out the Simone Fontechio minutes. Always thinking about. It's always on my mind.

[F]

Doesn't even play anymore, but yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Andrew Schlecht]

Okay. Thank you guys so much for listening to the morning shoot around. We appreciate you guys subscribing and following along all season. You know, with. With the NBA Daily and now with the shoot around, I feel like it's something that. That we'll do. It's been really fun to do a long form show and for you guys to listen and we've had a really good response to it, so very much appreciate that. If you aren't subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do that, like comment on this video. We have a bunch of people watching right now. So if you could just like the video, leave a comment of a player that you would like to see traded this summer. We'd love to see that. I hope you guys have a great day and we will talk to you guys again tomorrow. Tipping culture is out of control.

[Xena]

Yesterday I tipped someone just for handing me a napkin. So when hotels.com gives me up to 20% off for being a member, I finally get tipped. And you know what?

[Andrew Schlecht]

It feels good.

[Xena]

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