Keith Parish (3:04)

Yeah, it's. It's hard to count them out because of just how crazy their playoff run has been because of the fact that they've. They've won a lot of games that they were not supposed to win. You know, and they did it in a fashion that was so convincing that even in moments like this, without their, you know, intrepid superstar, you kind of have a chance regardless. And it's because they have that next man up type of mentality. But it is. What a deflating way for this season to end for the Pacers if it does end tonight.

Esperaheny (3:34)

Right.

Keith Parish (3:34)

Because of how incredible this run has been. They were the second best team, you know, in the NBA since January. They deservedly made it to the Finals. They earned their way there by beating top teams. You know, I think you think of the win over the Cavs, despite the injuries. You think of the win over the Knicks and the battle that they had, the. The game winners, the massive shots that Halliburton himself hit to cement himself as a guy who, like, hey, I can lead a team if the team around me is built properly to a Finals run. It's just a very deflating way for. To. To end this season if it does end tonight.

Esperaheny (4:08)

Yeah. And my guess is he's going to try to give it a go. Yeah. You know, this guy is. I mean, he's been playing through injuries for the last couple seasons. I mean, we've seen him look diminished, you know, but he's been out there. I do think that if he starts to look like he did in Game five, you've got to have a quick hook. If you're Rick Carlisle, because he actively hurt them in the second half, especially.

Keith Parish (4:29)

And you don't. You don't want to. You don't want him to re. Aggravate or you want to make it further. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Esperaheny (4:34)

Calf issue can become an Achilles issue, could become a knee issue. Like, you just got to be careful there. But. But also you got to play the better players that you've got. If he's not able to go. You know, there's been a lot of talk. I mean, we even, we even mentioned this the other night. Like, do you need more T.J. mcConnell? And I still, I feel like that can be a trap, especially with a guy.

Keith Parish (4:53)

Yeah.

Esperaheny (4:54)

The way that he plays. To expect him to. To be able to play at that level, at that intensity for a full, you know, let's say 30 minutes instead of the 18 to 20 that he typically does. I would almost lean towards starting, you know, Ben Shepard, and that way you've got some defense out there. Of course, your ball Handling is not going to be as you know, what you need against the Thunder, but at least you've got another guy that, that you can throw at Shay and makes your switching defense a little bit easier.

Keith Parish (5:20)

This is, this is why they traded for Pascal Siakam in the sense that, like, they've had moments where they've had to shift their identity to be more of a Pascal Siakam type of team. Especially at the start of the season, you know, when Halliburton was laboring through that back issue, it was, hey, let's lean on Pascal Siakam post ups. Let's run our offense through Siakam. And they're going to need that in game six as well. So they, they kind of know how to deal with a limited Halliburton. Right. They have that experience. If they can do that for one game. The guy I could think of is like, if Ben Matherin can just have another big night for them, I know he was massive one time in the series and that 27 point performance, if he can repeat himself here, get downhill, force the defense to crash, like that's the type of performance you need from the Pacers if they want to pull this out.

Esperaheny (6:07)

Yeah, I mean, like, there's a, there's this, you know, exercise that we always do in, in playoff series. You know, how do they win without blank? The truth is, if you lose a guy from here, starting five, I mean, you're already, you're. You're in a tough spot. You know, just elevating a guy from the bench, you're just never going to get the same production. Yeah, but they really just need everyone to go off. They need another bench night. They need Pascal Siakam Probably 35 plus. You know, they need him to put them on their, on their back. And especially down the stretch when it looked like, you know, again, I'm going back to game five, they had nothing going on and I feel like it was yet another opportunity similar to game four, where when their offense stalls out, that's the time where you need to see those Pascal Siakam touches in the post, especially up around the elbow and have everyone else sort of operate off that. It's also, you're going to need a big Miles Turner game. Offensively, he's going to have to get some shots for them. It needs to be, you know, more like more volume from three, probably to open up the inside for him.

Keith Parish (7:10)

Yeah. This is also a big opportunity for Andrew Nemhard to be like, hey, I've. I've had a somewhat Quiet series here in the finals, and I can kind of put my stamp on it here. He was awesome in that first game, generating paint touches for them so that, you know, the Obi Toppins of the world and the Miles Turners of the world could get some open looks. They need that exact type of player in this series and in this final game to get them some good looks offensively. So Nemhar can kind of prove himself, too. We've seen moments where he's been able to go off and, like, drop 20, drop 25 when they need it. You need it a lot on this game.

Esperaheny (7:43)

Right? I mean, look, the Thunder defense, the. If you can get into the paint against them, this is where TJ McConnell has had all. All of his success. The. The amount of offense that they generate. You know, the Pacers, when they get into the paint, it. Yeah, you can see that the eye test is there. And so, you know, if Nem Hard can just drive to the basket more often, it's just tough. That's a tough ask against the Oklahoma City Thunder because they send four guys out above the break and they're. They're pushing all these screens. You know, NBA teams want to set high screens far away from the basket. Unless you're playing the Thunder, because what you're doing is you're allowing them this playmaking space defensively where you have to throw harder passes and, I mean, shake your sale. Xander, the game he had in game five defensively is going to go, like, completely overlooked because not only did he put up 31 and 10, but, you know, JDub puts up 40. But he was feasting because of the way that defense was pushing them up high.

Keith Parish (8:40)

Yeah, it's hard to say that they've figured out what they need to offensively because there's still moments where they go through these lulls offensively. But the way that they have leaned on both SGA and J Dub to drive and get downhill and to generate good looks for them offensively, they've just decided in this series, it's like, hey, if we're going to win this series, it's off the back of our two best players. And they did that in game four. They did that in game five. It's. This is where you look at the series and say, okay, well, the Thunder have sort of figured them out, and they've done it in a fashion where, look, they're the better defensive team. They know what they can do. To your point, pressuring up high, and now the offensive side of the ball is making more sense for them because they're leaning on J Dub and SGA to close it out. The question I have for OKC is like, hey, you've had a performance in this series where you won a game knocking down three threes. I'm not sure you can necessarily pull that off in game six. I think you need to have a good offensive game, especially if you don't want to leave the door open for Indy. That's the type of performance you need. You need the case and Wallace's of the world to knock down a couple shots. You need Aaron Wiggins to knock down a couple shots. That's the way this Thunder team will win this game.

Esperaheny (9:48)

And now that everyone's counting out the Pacers, they're probably push this to seven games. That's just how they are. They do not do things normally. I don't know. I would love to get seven games out of this series. So hopefully they figure out a way to compete in game six whether Halliburton's available or not. Guys, stick around after the break. My good buddy Keith Parrish is here to talk us about the Desmond Bane trade and what is next for Memphis.

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Esperaheny (13:47)

Seemingly out of nowhere, Desmond Bain was traded to the Orlando Magic for a pretty good haul. Here to talk about it, the host of Fast Break Breakfast and Grits and Grinds Memphis Grizzlies podcast by good buddy Keith Parish. Keith, welcome back to the show. This was a surprising trade. Did you see this coming at all?

Dave DeFore (14:09)

I did not see it coming necessarily. I mean, in retrospect you can maybe draw some connection points to things that Zach Kleiman said at the end of the season. Media availability. He was asked can is this core good enough to win? Like you still believe Jod Jaren and Desmond can win an NBA title. And he didn't say no, but he didn't say yes, which came across loud and clear. And then he talked about oh yeah, we're, we're not trading John Morant. He said that before a couple times. And then he's talking about signing Jaren Jackson Jr. So notably omitted would be Desmond Bain. But still, I figured when he looks at the Western Conference, you looked at maybe how some teams were going to take steps back, how this new CBA with this virtual hard cap seems challenging on everyone. You see the Pacers breaking through in the east and you have kind of this, why not us? Like the. Chris has won 48 games last year and it wasn't even like an amazing season. They started two rookies all year. It's like, well, they could just get better and then they're right there on the doorstep. So I'd kind of worked myself into that. But then like you said, this was a surprise. So, yes, I did not see it coming. Even if some of the signs were there that I could have observed.

Keith Parish (15:18)

Yeah. In terms of the, the return that they got for Desmond Bay and obviously that's being talked about a lot in terms of the, the pick capital and getting the Suns pick. That's. That's obviously very valuable in today's NBA and what they could potentially do with that. It's also been reported that they are looking to build around John Morant and Jaren Jackson Jr. That this is not a sign that they're going to retool. The question here is what would take them, what would make them change their mind to maybe decide to. To retool and start over with John Moran and Jaren Jackson?

Dave DeFore (15:50)

I think, I think quite simply, if Jaren Jackson Jr. Says I would rather play somewhere else, that's it. I don't think there's. If Jaren wants to come back. John Morant has already declared on social media he's going to stay in Memphis in the last. In this week. Like I think it would take Jaren saying, I'm going to be honest, I would rather play somewhere else. I don't want to sign an extension. If that's the scenario, then bang, let's, let's cash in Jaren, for as much as you possibly can. But beyond that, I can't imagine they would pivot despite the fact that you did take a pretty big step back by moving on from Desmond Bain. But I do think it might have been the situation where I think it was a combination, honestly of all right, what is our ceiling with this backcourt? It has some limitations. Despite being very good and that combination with what Orlando offered, we were like, whoa, yeah. Oh. I didn't think someone was going to offer us four first round picks. Three of them basically totally unprotected. Those are things we can turn into other things. Maybe we can build a better fit around Ja and Jaren.

Esperaheny (17:00)

Well, and it's not like they didn't get useful players. I mean, Kentavius, Caldwell, Pope, I mean, it's a. You've got some problems there because he's not very big and, and you. The guys he needs to guard are big. But he can play for Memphis, he can shoot threes, he can defend and Cole Anthony can come off the bench for them. So like there's a, there's a world in which they just roll it out next year with these guys and they still have some assets that they can move at the deadline, they can improve where they don't take a huge drop off by losing Desmond Bain. I mean you think that they're done this summer? Like do you, do you see these guys like kcp, is he part of the team next year? You think that that's a contract that they want to maybe flip into another player or two?

Dave DeFore (17:40)

I would assume they're going to try to flip. At the very least they're flipping Cole Anthony. I think they're going to be interested in flipping KCP. I mean KCP, he's a great 3 and D prototype of player. The worry of course is the age and him not being able to perform outside of like Jokic. I know of course when a title with the Lakers, he's been this ideal role player. He didn't give the Magic exactly what they wanted there. I think regardless of his on court play right now he's viewed as a negative asset with the contract. He has the player option 20, 26, 27. So like, yeah, I think he could help the Grizzlies on the court, but also if they can trade him for an even better player, that is what they're going to do. And like, and as far as are they done this summer? I would be outraged if they were. I mean like this is, this is not like I'm not excited about. I feel like if you have Jot and Jaren, if they're like they're going to hopefully get an extension done with Jaren. But like if you have John Jaren, you owe it to yourselves to build a more competitive team around them.

Apple Card (18:47)

Right?

Dave DeFore (18:47)

Saying, saying we turned Desmond B into Cole Anthony and kcp. No, that does not get it done. That is not a step forward.

Keith Parish (18:55)

So, okay, so give me some names. Who do you think would be like a target of yours from the Grizzlies perspective?

Dave DeFore (19:00)

I mean I'm a broken record where I've just wanted Cam Johnson on the team and anytime a player like that's sort of available, maybe it wasn't an ideal fit with Desmond Bain, but now like it does feel like an even better fit. You wonder if the asking price might be coming down for the Nets if you can throw in one of these unprotected assets. There are, you know, coming up with like who are the wings with size who are available out there and you want the shooting.

Esperaheny (19:28)

I mean price is so high though, Keith. I mean like Trey Murphy who we talked about on the stream.

Dave DeFore (19:33)

Trey Murphy would be a great one.

Esperaheny (19:35)

I mean there.

Dave DeFore (19:37)

So what if you, if the Grizzlies offer three first round picks and kcp is that like what are the Pelicans looking for? I think a Herb Jones, maybe the price is a little bit lower. Yeah, that sounds like something pretty nice. That's one where you could use the Cole Anthony salary and then save the KCP salary for something bigger. I mean, I think if I had to guess what's going to happen, I still think they might go into the season with this team. Like maybe they don't actually move Cole Anthony because again, the shopping prices change. When it goes into the season, teams pivot. I mean you have to look, I think you have to look at just what the motivations are for so many teams in the league. Like are the Cavaliers going to drastically cut payroll? Are the Celtics going to have a fire sale? And you say like wait a minute, you tell me Jalen Brown's actually available. Or like wait, we can have Derrick White, like we're listing. And so the, the positive thing from the Grizzlies angle, if you felt like you'd capped out with Bane and Jared and Jaw, now you have legitimately given yourselves the assets that you can use in a trade. You have broken up that Britain deal into two more manageable salaries that you can trade for a lot of stuff. Even if they resign Jaren to everything they can give him this off season, even if they retain Santi Aldama, they still will have space under the luxury tax to, to have some mismatched salaries where they can send out and bring back more. I mean you could get like a John Collins maybe for nothing from Utah. Like just guys who can help around the edges. Whether or not that moves you into like the upper tier of the Western Conferen, I don't know. But at the very least you should I think be able to build around Ja and Jaren and maybe do so in a way they think is long term going to be more effective than what they had with Desmond Bain there.

Esperaheny (21:20)

I mean healthy, like healthy. This team last year was a 2 seed, you know, until they, they started to kind of fall apart down the stretch. Right. Like this is a team, this isn't like this is a real play in team.

Dave DeFore (21:35)

It isn't, it isn't. So like there's a, there's a real.

Keith Parish (21:39)

Long.

Dave DeFore (21:41)

Track record of Ja Morant, Desmond Bain and Jaren Jackson Jr. Being a 2 seed. It was 2021. It was 2022. Like, it was like they did it for two years in a row and then last year they were the 2.3seed for most of the season and it just all fell apart. So, like, there is this like, track record of like, wait, you actually had success with, with this group. And I would say my criticism what the team has done is like, you were not aggressive in building around that group.

Keith Parish (22:08)

Right.

Dave DeFore (22:08)

I don't feel like you really maxed out that group. You could say we had Desmond Bain on the best contract in the NBA for many years because he was the 30th pick.

Esperaheny (22:17)

Right.

Dave DeFore (22:17)

And like, you did not maximize that moment, that opportunity. Now that opportunity is gone. You're like, okay, now he's being paid for the player that he is. He's one of the best shooting guards in the NBA. Orlando obviously felt so that's why they made this offer for him. And the Grizzlies are like, oh, well, now it's too expensive to pay him. We got to do something else. So there is a frustration there, but it's confusing where you see the success and maybe it was just regular season success. Obviously they hadn't made it past the second round or the first round, excuse me, in several years. And they said, let's, let's pivot to something else. So I don't know. It's a hard, it's a hard thing to parse out. And I guess you fall back to. Maybe you can fall back to the thinking, okay, with Desmond Bain, maybe we're a play in. Maybe we're losing the first round team. If that is where we are right now, wouldn't we rather have all these first round picks from the Magic and still be a play in team? Like, you know, it's like, all right, so we're, we're not fifth in the West. We're now eighth in the West. But we picked up this huge haul of draft capital.

Keith Parish (23:20)

How hard is it, in your opinion, do you think, to build this team out knowing that there's going to be an extension for Jaren Jackson Jr. The, the money that John Morant is owed and, and an ownership group that has been, I would say, probably unwilling to pay the tax. That a fair way to observe it? Like, is that part of the equation of, like, how are you supposed to actually build out a championship contender?

Dave DeFore (23:44)

Yeah. I mean, the challenge for every team right now is how do you build A contender and at least avoid the first or second apron. But then the tax too. I feel like secretly there's like, I don't know, is there a. Is there a group chat of all NBA owners where they were high fiving that two non tax teams made it to the NBA Finals? They're like, see, we can do it. Why, why am I, why am I paying tax? These teams made it to the the NBA Finals without the tax. So I think there are challenges. I think some of the challenges have been overstated for the Grizzlies. And I think the way it looks to me as an outsider, it's like they've been planning for so many years to like, oh well, we have to take care of Jaren. Where it's like, well, yeah, but you could have done other things and still taking care of Jaren. And we're still in the situation right now where they unloaded Marcus Smart. They used the 18th pick in this year's draft to do it. There's some thought that with the 16th pick they got from the Magic, they might use that to get off of John Conchar's money. And it's like, why? I mean, I understand you don't want to have Jaren Jackson Jr. Going to free agency, but it's like instead of building the team up around them so much, what the Grizzlies have done the past several seasons have been focused like the 2027 season.

Keith Parish (24:51)

Right.

Dave DeFore (24:52)

And it's like, well, what. Why don't we try to win in the 2024 season and the 2025 season? And so it's tough. So there are challenges obviously, S with like trying to figure out, I mean, if your owner says I'm not paying tax, okay, this is now the thing we have to work with. And so, so that is harder. But all that being said, like the salary cap going up 10 each season, it's not that hard. And it's like you can still pay a lot of really good players. You can surround John Morant and Jaren Jackson Jr. And you can surround them with the talent I think you need. And there are still going to be. There's a lot of discounted contracts out there, a lot of guys making 15 to 30 million where maybe you can build it up. Because the Grizzes are going to be. They're not going to be the Magic in a couple of years with their tax concerns. They're not going to be teams with multiple super max guys. Yeah, I don't think Jaw is going to qualify for a Super max. And maybe Jaren holds out trying to make the super max, but I don't think it's more challenging than what anybody else is going through. You know, I guess maybe it'll be the, the shortest answer after I went on a long little spiel there.

Esperaheny (25:54)

But we've seen a bunch of teams that have made these financially motivated moves that like a downgrade and they haven't been right. Like, I mean, you look at what Minnesota did, you look at, you know, I think that there is a way that you can kind of build on the fly to a certain degree. And, and right now they at least have some players. So worst case scenario, they go into next year with some guys that they can move and pieces, they can flip. Keith. I mean, I guess before we get out of here, what's like, what does a good summer look like for the Grizzlies? I mean, what type of player do they bring in? Is it only this, this wing guy or is it. Is it. Does it have to be a. They need somebody that's almost all star level.

Dave DeFore (26:35)

I mean, first and foremost, you. You gotta have, I think a near all star level third guy. I was just for fun with some of my listeners trying to figure out like which NBA team right now has the worst third best player. And it's like, all right, who is the first of all, who is the Grizzlies third best player right now?

Esperaheny (26:55)

Yeah, is it Santiago Dama?

Dave DeFore (27:00)

Is it Jalen Wells? Is it like so like for that you're like, listen, the Grizzlies have got by before. They sort of feel like. You sometimes feel like they solved the regular season with their depth, but like, I feel like in a vacuum their depth is pretty bad compared to the rest of the NBA. Their three through 11 guys are very weak compared to the rest of the NBA. John Morant, of course, is not known for playing every game. Like that's the biggest issue with the Grizzlies right now. It's just John Morant, his availability and can he play more than 60 games or 50 games in a year? So like they need, first of all, they need more talent, flat out, right? So they need, I think that that third level or that third semi star, all star type guy. They also just need a center. Like I know Zach Edie, all rookie, but like he's hurt, he's injured now. He had surgery on his ankle. Gonna miss the start of the year. Even with Zach Edie, the front court's very thin. You have Brandon Clark who own injury concerns. Santia is A restricted free agent. So like you probably need more ball handling. Scotty Pippen Jr. Was a revelation last year, but I don't think you can have just John Morant and Scotty Pippen Jr. And say we're done with our ball handling.

Esperaheny (28:07)

Definitely not with the style of play that, that they want to employ. Right. Like sort of pace. They need more guys.

Keith Parish (28:14)

That is the main question I have moving forward. If they don't end up making any major changes this summer, it's like what, what is the success? What's the route to success for this team next season with the style of play that they want to play because they just lost their best shooter. And this isn't a team that was like this high volume, crazy let's get threes up ad nauseam type of team. What is the way they're. They're going to win? Like what's the success route for them?

Dave DeFore (28:37)

I mean I have no idea. It's like they, they. I mean Isolos track record in the Euroleague with Paris basketball was, was getting a lot out of smallish guards and so like that was kind of the thought. All right, that's great for Johns. Also should be good for Jaren. There's been some confusion about the. The that like revolutionary offense the Grizzlies tie tried last year that was not Easelo stuff. So like Isolo apparently is more as a pragmatist of like this is the. These are the players I have. This is what I'm going to do. So we don't even know frankly exactly what he's going to install in training camp and what they're actually going to try to accomplish. If they don't have any shooting, I guess they're going to try to get closer to the. Doesn't matter.

Esperaheny (29:23)

It doesn't matter what style of play you've got. If you don't have shooting in the NBA, you're going to have a hard time doing anything.

Dave DeFore (29:28)

I will say, I will say as someone who's watched the Grizzlies and, and the year long criticism was like oh, this style of forcing turnovers and generating offensive rebounds and winning the possessions battle, it's not going to win in the postseason. Watching the Thund Thunder win a finals game with three like three, three pointers on, was it less than 20 attempts? I'm like maybe we could have done it. Maybe we could have gone all defense.

Esperaheny (29:54)

So I don't know. Everybody out there can learn a lesson. Just be like the Thunder, Keith.

Dave DeFore (29:58)

Just you don't have to pay luxury tax you don't have to make three pointers. You can do it, everybody.

Esperaheny (30:06)

All right, that's gonna do it for the show, folks. Thanks to Keith Parrish for hanging out for S. Barrehenney. I'm Dave DeFore and this has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us. Foreign.

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