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- [00:00]
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- [00:25]
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- [02:06]
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- [02:51]
Dave Dufour
This is nerder she wrote with your host Dave Dufour with Mo Daquil.
- [02:56]
Mo Daquil
Are you ready to be entertained?
- [02:58]
Dave Dufour
And Seth Hartnow.
- [03:03]
Mo Daquil
Hello and welcome to the Athletic NBA show. It's Wednesday. I'm Dave Defour here with Modakil and Seth Part now. So that means it's Nerder she wrote. Guys, a little bit of big news to wake up to this morning or go to bed to if you were watching CNN last night. Got a new coach in Milwaukee. Of course, Adrian Griffin was fired yesterday halfway through his first season as a head coach, which is, you know, that's a bummer, but it seems like Doc Rivers is going to take over and right the ship for the Milwaukee Bucks who are currently second in the East. We've talked a lot this season about Adrian Griffin and some of the struggles that he's had as a coach. Seth Moe, we've pointed out the excellent offense that you're just destined to have because you have Damian Lillard and Giannis Anticompo. There's no work to be done there. But defensively this team was 22nd in the NBA and this is a defense that features Brook Lopez and Giannis Anticumpo that is completely unacceptable. And I'm assuming that the defense is a large part of the reason why Adrian Griffin is out of there. But let's talk about Griff first before we get to the Doc part of this. MO they, they struggled. Transition defense was just a mess. Half court defense wasn't really much better. When you were watching the tape, maybe the numbers look a little bit better, but I felt like they were paper thin on the perimeter and obviously up front they're just God awful. MO Is it just the defense or is that just the biggest piece?
- [04:33]
Dave Dufour
No, I, I think the biggest piece is he lost the locker room. And maybe the question is did he have the locker room at all at any point, you know, when he took over? I mean, let's just run through again the litany of red flags leading up to this point. But you know, the Terry Stots, you know, argument at a shoot around or a practice leading to Stotts leaving the team. Red flag, you know, the just a few games in the team saying, hey, we've had one of the best defenses over the past few years. Why are we changing things? We want to go back to the old thing and you know, it good on Griffin willing to change but also willing dumb on the sense of like why are you coming in and fixing something that isn't broken and you know, I think the other stuff is the Bobby Portis at the end of the in season tournament when they got eliminated by Indiana, really kind of going off Giannis multiple rants. I mean, everything from the equipment guy getting blame and having to do things better. Which by the way, Yanis purely. Don't you blame the support staff ever for that stuff, especially the video guys. And I'm not saying that because I'm a former video guy and I was offended. And just across the board, you know, we had a game where Giannis subbed himself back in because he was pissed off that he got subbed out. Like there was just so many different things there that I just honestly, the defense, as bad as it is, it's something I think we all expected. You know, just looking at the.
- [06:00]
Mo Daquil
Well, Damian Lillard stinks playing defense. I mean, just not what he does.
- [06:03]
Dave Dufour
You know, in the same trade. And I think the. But I think the problem is he never got hold of the locker room and he never got bought, got buy in. And we always talk about it. Coaching is selling. Coaching is selling and getting players to buy into your stuff and it's getting them to buy in every day. And they didn't. And you know that. And now he's gone.
- [06:24]
Mo Daquil
Now that's it.
- [06:25]
Seth Partnow
Seth, I, I mean, I think that there's a lot of truth to what Mo is saying. I think that the last point about coaching being selling, coaching being communicating not just the players, but you know, to, to ownership, to, to front office, to sort of outside stakeholders. I mean, you like, again, you have to be somewhat circumspect because I'm not like, it's not stuff that I witnessed. But you, you heard even before the season started that, you know, part of an NBA coach is you, you know, give a talk to season ticket holders and, and there were people who are at this. I'm like, oh boy. And it's like, okay, his first time doing it maybe. But I compare that to an assistant coach that, that I worked with in Milwaukee, Darvin Ham, who like had that room. Like, if he was, if you, no matter who he was speaking in front of, he had the command and could, could communicate and converse with that. And that's part of that is, is also like, you know, we, we never, you never know when assistant coaches like all the things they've done well to be a good and respected assistant coach. I'm not saying they're all out the window, but it's a completely different skill set. And I think the, an overwhelming feeling of not Even worrying about the locker room or, or communication and stuff like that. It just. The, the, the speed of what happens on the NBA floor was, was too fast for, for him, I think. And it was too fast for this team for a lot of the years, I think. I think it wasn't just that the defense is bad and the transition defense has been bad. It's the manner of it sort of the frequency with which the Bucks, we've talked about this before, have given up fast break layoffs off of their own makes, which is something that is sort of. It's like basic convert and match competency that was, you know, part of it is, you know, you're talking about basic competency. Well, that's a bud team. And so the switch from that to far less than was especially jarring. But just not having that and it's frankly not that bit of it even as the team has, has sort of won some games. And I want to put a pin in that and get back to that. That overwhelming sense of sort of not having control of the things you can control was, was unmistakable for the entire season around this team. And it's not something that, you know, all right, first five games we're figuring out hasn't really gotten better over the course of the season.
- [08:49]
Dave Dufour
No, the other thing too, Dave, you said like the offense isn't the problem. I think some of it is like, you know, they haven't fully. Come on, man. We all thought we were going to get Giannis Dame picking rules and there's a lot of reasons behind that. We thought that we get spammed over the top a lot. There's a lot of things that, that need to be fixed on this team and I'm sure we'll, we'll touch on some of that stuff. And there's some stuff that Seth actually had said as the trade happened for Damon. I want to give Seth, you know, some, some, you know, love on that when we get to it, but I just think across the board this was just a poor job of deciding who the coach is going to be from the front office. This was a big job. This was a championship level job and it was tough to give this to. And we've had examples of first year coaches having massive success in all that stuff, but this was a big one and I think when you look at the fact that they passed on my all time favorite Nick Nurse to hire Adrian Griffin, I think it's a, a surprise there in that sense. And I just think it was more, you know, they were, they made this decision from what it seems like for Giannis and Giannis wanting this and wanting him as his guy and whatnot. And I think that's part of the problem as the front office, you know, not, not selling Giannis on, hey, that's not the, didn't seem like that was their guy. And it, you could kind of just tell by how quickly the support went away from him in, in the situation. But we should also just commend the Bucks. A lot of teams would have just stayed through this for a year, you know, and, and said, it's okay, he'll get better, he'll get better, it'll work out. They're in championship mode right now. That's their goal, that's their main thing. And I think this was just, I feel bad for Griffin because I think this was a really bad job for him to have taken, I put him in a very bad situation as a first time head coach. And, and I, I, I actually would be worried and wonder if he'd get another shot because of it.
- [10:47]
Mo Daquil
And it's tough. I mean, look, look, this is, I, I think that this illustrates just how hard it is to assess coaches until they've become a head coach and run their own program. I mean, this is one of the reasons why I think Nick Nurse would have done a better job, right? Nick Nurse, at a very, at a minimum, he has run a program before and he's done it on multiple levels. Like, there's no reason to think that there would have been a huge drop off. And, and my guess is as a guy who is coached at different places, I mean, continuity matters. So, you know, Nick Nurse coming in as a new head coach, not his first rodeo as a new head coach with an established team, as we know. And what did he do in Toronto? Well, when he took over, he didn't come in, make wholesale changes. I mean, they were, they were lucky. They got Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green, right? So they made some huge changes, but he really kept it simple and that's how, you know, that's how he, he had so much success. Right? Like, you can't just mix things up. And I wonder if, you know, some of these changes were just, it was too much, too soon. But again, like you said, MO is a huge job. I also wonder if the Bucks, it part of their reasoning wasn't, well, we have Giannis and look at what Boston just did last year. Joe Missoula had to take over last minute, you know, but they had the same team. This is the difference there. The continuity if they had not made the trade. I mean, Mo, this was your point. I don't want to steal it because you made this, this point, but I wonder if Adrian Griffin's job isn't easier because if he had Drew Holiday, if he had just the continuity from last year.
- [12:21]
Dave Dufour
Well, two things. One, the, on the continuity front, the thing about Boston that separates this is Missoula was at least on the staff and was well respected on the staff and had that cachet and that equity with guys. But let me ask this question because I asked you this, Dave, in our YouTube emergency show yesterday and go watch that on YouTube if you need more.
- [12:41]
Mo Daquil
Griffin coverage, if you want more of this.
- [12:44]
Dave Dufour
But Seth, let me ask you this question. Is Adrian Griffin the head coach if the Bucks knew that they were getting Damian Lillard, if we flip this around in the order of these things kind of happening and they got Dame before they got a new head coach. Is, is Adrian Griffin the guy you go with?
- [13:03]
Seth Partnow
It's an interesting question. I think the general understanding is that it was very likely they were going to hire an ex player of some sort as, as the head coach. So that, that, you know, the other names that are out there were, you know, you mentioned Nick Nurse, Kenny Atkinson. I think that the, the winds would have blown against them just because of, you know, going like part of the, the, you know, wanting to, to move away from Bud. It was someone who related to the players a little better and so there was a desire for an ex player. So I, does that still mean it's, it's, it's Griffin or does someone with, you know, some, some more experience kind of get, get the, get the nod then? I don't know. That's a great question. But I, but I think that, I think that was still like there was still, you know, of the sort of upand cominging ex player assistance. Griffin is guy is a guy whose name has been at the, you know, at the top of that list for, for a good long while. And so it, I, I don't think it was a, on its face, it was not a ludicrous hire in the moment, whether or not the trade was made. It's again, you just sort of you, you get, you move to the big chair, responsibilities change. As Dave said, running a program is a completely different beast than, you know, being, you know, being a guy who's in breaking down an opposing offense or defense or doing like, like skills and vitamins training and stuff like that. And it's, you know, this isn't the first time and it will not be the last time that we've seen a respected former assistant get the head job and it just, and just not be, not be able to. To do all those things. I mean, I think absolutely no, the closest analog I can think is actually goes back a bit is you remember Brian Shaw was again, an ex player, a respected guy who's a heady player in his day, was at the top of these lists for a number of years and then he gets, he gets the chance and it just doesn't the same. It was a very similar almost thing and just like just not really able to command the respect of the players and be organized enough to. To, to have it, have it work. And, and I think we, we saw that and I don't think that the team that shot took over was a team with the same level of aspirations as, as the Bucks. So something like something you, you guys accused me of saying earlier off air is that I was saying that the, the Bucks are having a gap year. And, and I think what, what my, my opinion was if they, it was basically a gap year if they did not make a change because with all the sort of the basic issues that they've been having, they were essentially drawing dead in the postseason. And so you had to do something to. You can't, you know, Dame is not young. Giannis is. Giannis's prime is not eternal. So, you know, you can't, you can't be punting on, on, on those chances.
- [16:00]
Dave Dufour
Yeah.
- [16:00]
Mo Daquil
I will say this. It is really, really hard to assess assistance and try to figure out who is going to make a good coach. Number one, from the outside looking in, you don't know anything. You have no idea even what his responsibilities are. You just don't know. And then there's the human aspect of this. Like, you're going to ask, like, if you're going to hire Adrian Griffin, you're probably going to call up Nick Nurse, and Nick Nurse is going to give you a glowing review of the guy who was just his assistant. I mean, this is, this is all we know how this works.
- [16:30]
Dave Dufour
Not when they're competing for this job.
- [16:32]
Seth Partnow
All right, fair.
- [16:33]
Mo Daquil
But this, this being said, though, it's a, it's a human relation business. And so like, you might get, hey, he's the best. He's a great guy. He does all these things and he does them well. But you don't know until he's in your shot. You don't know until he's in the house. So that's, you know, it's all A crapshoot. And even with experienced coaches I think it can be a crapshoot because what if a guy has just completely stagnated as a coach?
- [16:57]
Dave Dufour
It's not.
- [16:58]
Mo Daquil
And you're going to bring him in.
- [16:59]
Dave Dufour
It's not even that. Sometimes it's just a matter of you don't know how they're going to operate in your, in your organization. Right. Like we're going to obviously talk about Doc in a second but like Doc operated one way in Boston, came to la, different circumstances, was team president, had a whole lot more on his plate with everything that he had to do, but he felt like he could just bring everything from Boston to la. And I would say one thing that's kind of, you know that I think teams have to understand what works in one city is not going to necessarily work in another city. You know, look man, la, way more distractions. Boston, snowy and cold all the time in the winter, not a lot to do. You know, in LA we have rain for three days and we think it's the, we're all building an arc like it's a whole different deal.
- [17:51]
Seth Partnow
Hey, Milwaukee Night Pro wrestling.
- [17:53]
Mo Daquil
There are gimmicks that work in some cities and there are gimmicks that work in others. And I walk right into it.
- [17:59]
Seth Partnow
First of all, I, I just want to say Milwaukee Nightlife is undefeated. No, it's not.
- [18:04]
Mo Daquil
No, not in the winter. Yeah, see. Okay, let's, let's move on. I, I Speaking of new guys coming to town, we should just talk.
- [18:12]
Dave Dufour
No, I, I'm too upset here. But we should talk about the fact that they did just fire their coach when they were 30 and 13.
- [18:21]
Mo Daquil
That's what keep people keep bringing up and I, I so you, Dave, you.
- [18:26]
Seth Partnow
Mentioned, you mentioned second place in the East. If you look at like their non garbage time point differential they're actually 11th in the league per cleaning the glass. They're that which would put them let me do to do I think sixth. They're sixth in the east in point differential. They, their record overstates their, their overall performance by the largest margin in the league. On my sort of clutch performance stuff they are the most overperforming team in the league. And the problem and I think it's no not an accident that this happened right after they played a close game against Detroit because they've played and won a lot of clutch games but they're playing these clutch games against terrible teams like Detroit without Cade Cunningham for a championship level team. That's a, that's a game that should be over six minutes left in the, in the third quarter and instead it comes down to the wire and yeah, they've, they've pulled some of those games out, but if you play that level against a Philly, against a Denver, should you make it that far against Heck, against New York in a playoff series? I think you, you put yourself in trouble and I think so. I think the 30 and 13 is gaudy and nice, but this team is not played at the level of a 60 ish win team or anything close.
- [19:44]
Dave Dufour
I commend again, like for their, them recognizing that and not being fooled by their, their record is, is a big thing there because again, they're going for.
- [19:55]
Mo Daquil
This for years, right? We've talked about this particular aspect of managerial decision making for years with NBA teams. Bad teams hold on to bad coaches way too long. And this is a, this is like a redux of what we just saw in Atlanta last year. Worst case scenario, you're getting your new coach in for next year six months early. And I think that, that even that head start is a huge deal. Although, let's talk about this now. Doc Rivers, it's official right before we started recording, he is now going to be the new head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks. We don't have any contract details because they don't come out all that often on coaches unless someone's setting a record. I don't think Doc is going to be the new highest paid coach in the league. If he is, I hope that the Miami Heat, you know, go give SPO a race because he's the best coach ever. But Doc Rivers, officially a head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks, they might not.
- [20:50]
Seth Partnow
Doc might not set a record, but the Bucks might set a record this year for highest compensation to head coaches.
- [20:57]
Mo Daquil
They're paying three coaches at once. I mean, now this is, this is. I feel like, I feel like the.
- [21:04]
Dave Dufour
Knicks still own that somehow. I feel like at some point they're, I still feel like they're paying Herb Williams as a.
- [21:13]
Mo Daquil
Well, I, I will say this. Philadelphia no longer has to pay Doc Rivers. So congratulations to the 76ers on this.
- [21:20]
Dave Dufour
Yay. Billionaires still keep him there.
- [21:22]
Mo Daquil
All right, let's talk about Doc. I mean, I would say this. As far as, you know, my job goes here today, it's very easy. Seth, you know the Bucks as well as anybody. Mo, you know Doc Rivers as well as anybody as far as, as a coach. How is this marriage going to work out?
- [21:39]
Seth Partnow
It feel like you're trying to get both of us in trouble at Once.
- [21:42]
Dave Dufour
I am Dave trying to cause problems. Never.
- [21:46]
Seth Partnow
So, so I think that at at minimum, like this, this, like a lot of the, the baseline level stuff that we've talked about, that competency that, that is, I expect that to come back. However, again, if you're championship or bust, we've talked about this. I mean I think that, that Doc as a playoff coach is, I don't want to say is questionable. I think we can go off far enough and say it's bad. The stat that came out that I, that, that, that I, that I came out with when he got let go from Philly is that the NBA as a whole, you know, accepting game seven when one team's going to advance and one team's not. That the NBA as a whole wins over the last 25ish years when they have a chance to close a series out, win about 65 of the time. Doc has won 33 of those games. I, I think the stat is in, in up 3:1 and up 3:2, which, which combined the league as a whole has closed out series around 62% of the time. He is, I believe, 9 and 19. His teams are 9 and 19. And I think that is illustrative of sort of some of the struggles that I think his teams run into when you get into having to make the fine grain adjustments that are needed to happen. And it's an interesting thing because a lot of people around, like people who were watching the Bucks who wanted to be supportive of Griffin were noting that one of the criticisms of Budenholzer was him being too rigid and at least Griffin was trying stuff. But I think this is a through line to Doc in that like when, when in the past, when we've seen him try stuff in the playoffs, it's been when their backs are already against the wall and he kind of starts mashing buttons. And that was a lot of like Griffin's adjustments were. Adjustments were sort of the same. It's, you know, you, you think about, to use another sport analogy since I'm at a, I'm at a football conference right now, is scripting plays to start a game. It's yeah, you're trying to score and stuff like that, but you're also putting a number of different things out there to see how the opposition reacts to that. And I think the coaches that adjust well spo Ty Lu, they make their adjustments with a purpose. Okay, that didn't work. Let's move to the next thing because I already know what the next thing is. I think that's something that, that a criticism we've had of Doc over the years is he doesn't do that.
- [24:12]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, I mean, look, I think the, this couldn't have played out more perfectly for document, if we're being perfectly honest. The. He was never going to get an opportunity to coach a championship caliber team until it's an in season situation because all the other options are gone. They couldn't call up Nick Nurse, they couldn't even call up Mike Budenholzer and say, hey man, get off that beach, put down that drink with the umbrella in it and you know, get your ass over here. You know, I, they couldn't really do that. So really just their options like this is the only option for them. If they're trying to get a high caliber coach who, you know he's won a championship. I mean, he lets us all know about it. It was 2008. We're all very well aware of it. He's kind of lived off of that for a long time. I think the big question is with, with Doc is, you know, can he change the stuff that's gone wrong for them? Can he improve their defense? I don't know if that's a, a coaching problem or a personnel problem. I think it's more a personnel problem. And can he get Dame to lock in defensively and what does that look like when Dame does that? Is he actually capable of that? Can he. I think he will do a better job of setting up the, the Dame Giannis pick and roll and kind of getting the message to Giannis that hey, closing time is Dame time. And I think that's something that Giannis will have to adjust to and understand that. And I think that's something, that's exactly what Seth was talking about when this trade originally happened was how willing Giannis would be to give that stuff up. I think Doc has a better ability to make that happen than Griffin. Like, you know, I think there's a, going to be interesting stuff and wrinkles there. Look, Doc's a good coach. I don't think he's a great coach. And I think that's the, the, the difference here. They got the best coach that was available on the market right now. And I don't know, not like I look at that and go like, okay, they're a championship team now.
- [26:15]
Seth Partnow
Right.
- [26:16]
Mo Daquil
I will say I want to circle back to what you talked about with Adrian Griffin and losing the locker room. I think that is one of the bigger components of hiring Doc Rivers. Doc Rivers will have that locker room. I mean, one of the things like he was great in Philly with that. I mean until, you know, obviously till the end when it wasn't. But this is how relationships go. We all know. I, I do think that he'll be.
- [26:37]
Seth Partnow
Able to disagree, but go on.
- [26:39]
Mo Daquil
I, I think, okay, yes, fair. But I do think he'll come in and he will have the locker room. This is going to be the most high powered offensive guard he's ever coached. You know, I just ran through like my Rolodex of guards that he's coached. You know, he's had Rondo, he had Chris Paul. This is the most high powered scoring guard he's ever gotten a chance to coach. I'm, I'm very curious to see what Doc will do with, with a player the caliber of Damian Lillard. I, I kind of have an idea. I mean I think Giannis is going to be involved in much more pick and roll. I, I think he's going to have, he's going to have to play the. Oh, Seth, thank you. Harden. James Harden. I forgot he had James Harden.
- [27:21]
Dave Dufour
Ah, okay.
- [27:21]
Mo Daquil
Well, Damian Willard.
- [27:22]
Dave Dufour
Okay, I would, I, I, I think I forgot.
- [27:26]
Mo Daquil
Yeah, but, yeah, yeah, but I'd go that level. But, but I do think we'll have a chance to see, you know, Doc doctors took like six months off. I mean maybe he's got some ideas. He has been consulting with the Bucks for about a month it seems so maybe he's had some time to dream up some fantasy sets that he would run if he were to theoretically take over his head coach.
- [27:48]
Seth Partnow
Can I, can I, I know Mo has a, has, has a, has, has a grievance to air a little bit later. I have a grievance to air here and I am, we're all big boys and girls. I'm sick of having my insult, my intelligence insulted by the very stage managed reporting of there hasn't been any. Like, this isn't beanbag. This is pro sports. Of course that they knew who they were going to hire. They've been, they've been working on that for. And this is not me reporting. This is just like, this is how it works.
- [28:20]
Mo Daquil
Welcome to earth.
- [28:22]
Seth Partnow
Don't do this. Yeah, NBA teams do not do this stuff for the most part on a whim. They know what's coming next and it's just like plausible deniability that like, because of like the sort of the unwritten rule that you don't try for another coach's job or whatever, like bullshit, we're trying to win a title here. And so of course they. So the ridiculous song and dance about, was there or wasn't there an agreement already? Like, okay, there might not have been a piece of paper signed, but come on, let's be adults here. And. And, like, you're not making this move without the next thing in place.
- [28:55]
Mo Daquil
Dude.
- [28:56]
Dave Dufour
It was within two minutes. His name coming up within the. Once the. Once Griffin was fired. Like, I don't even think everybody got the news Griffin was fired when they started to hear that Doc was the leading candidate for the job. Like, it's not a. It's. It was the most obvious thing in the world when that. That's where it was going. You know, like, I texted friends saying, oh, Doc's getting that job. You know, once CNN confirmed the report. I'm gonna keep harping on that. CNN Sports, once CNN Sports, you know, hit it. They sent me a text message, Bo, you called it. I said, I didn't call it. It was obvious. It wasn't. It was right there in front of us. Like, it's not a. I didn't know he was consulting, but, like, just the pure fact that the report came back so quickly and there were no other names mentioned. Like, yeah, and you. It made sense. He was the only real option in that stuff, in the way this all goes and the way that kind of plays out. So it's, It's. It wasn't a surprise by any stretch of the imagination. And, yeah, you're not going to stretch this thing out. You know, you're not in this situation. You need to win games now. You're trying to get the one seed. I don't know if that's too far gone at this point for them in the standings, but you sure as hell don't want to drop to third, you know, or even fourth, because Cleveland's coming up. But, like, you don't want to. You. You don't want to stretch this out. But now the other thing is, and this is what's going to be really interesting, I'm very curious to see what Doc does with the staff. How many guys does he keep. Does he start.
- [30:24]
Mo Daquil
He's got to keep Joe Fronty. You guys know how I feel about.
- [30:26]
Dave Dufour
Well, I mean, Dave will storm the.
- [30:28]
Mo Daquil
Castle for a day. That's right.
- [30:31]
Dave Dufour
I bet he coaches tonight. Dave, when they play Cleveland, I bet he coaches even their next game. I think Doc still needs to kind of get his all, all his stuff together. The weather here isn't that great in la, so I don't know if he's going to be able to go Golfing today one last time. But the. I think the opportunity is that like, he. I think there's. He's gonna start building his staff. So there is going to be changes there. It is gonna be a bit of a transition. Like guys are gonna have to adjust. It's gonna be a whole different deal of, of him kind of finding. Figuring out a staff, who he's bringing in and whatnot. And, you know, I also hope Austin Rivers gets dressed and. And ready to go. I imagine, you know, he. He might get a call, please sign him.
- [31:12]
Mo Daquil
Just.
- [31:12]
Seth Partnow
I mean, they're. They're backup point guard situation.
- [31:16]
Mo Daquil
Use Austin Rivers.
- [31:17]
Dave Dufour
They can use him.
- [31:18]
Mo Daquil
I gotta say, try not to be a dick, but they can use Austin on TV the other day. He's pretty good. I. I don't mind. Austin Rivers on tv.
- [31:24]
Seth Partnow
Pretty good.
- [31:25]
Mo Daquil
Seth, you. You got one more point before we put a bow on this.
- [31:27]
Seth Partnow
No, this is. This is. I mean, the whole thing is like the coaching equivalent of a free agent signing at 1201 at the. Wow. They negotiated that fast.
- [31:36]
Dave Dufour
Like.
- [31:36]
Seth Partnow
Yeah, I just, I'm. I. This is the kabuki of this. Just like it. It. It's so transparent and it annoys me. And I, I just. I hate that we. We pretend to play this.
- [31:47]
Mo Daquil
Well, a big part of our job, and not to let you guys see the wizard or anything, but a big part of our job is pretending like we didn't know something was happening for a couple weeks. You know, like, why were we all so prepared for Pascal Siakam to, you know, for him to go to Indiana? It's because we've been talking about it for six months. Like, all this stuff is, you know, it's a. It's a steamroller coming at half a mile an hour that we're watching just come down the road. I mean, like, this is all this is like when Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell were in Utah and about 75 of my job was pretending that they had a chance to win a title. It's more fun if I pretend. So anyway, to put a bow on this, I want to ask you guys just up front, I. Because I don't. Look, this is not a lost season, especially now that they've. That they pulled the plug and I think brought in a. A whether better or not a coach more suited to the job. Do the Bucks win the title this year?
- [32:45]
Dave Dufour
No.
- [32:47]
Seth Partnow
I mean, obviously the choice is the.
- [32:50]
Mo Daquil
Field, but do you see a scenario like, can they pull this off?
- [32:54]
Seth Partnow
Oh, I mean, they have it. I mean, they're. They were Drawing dead before and they're. And they got a chip in a chair now.
- [32:59]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, they have chances.
- [33:01]
Seth Partnow
Yeah, their chances. But I think. Are they. The. Would I have them in the top three or four teams that. That are likely to win the title? I don't think so. I think. I think that I would have. I mean, I haven't thought of it in this way before now, but I think I would have. Boston, Philly, the Clippers and Denver, all. All. I don't know, but all favorites over them. I mean, who do I think is more likely to win the championship between them in okc? That's. I mean, that's a. Like. I think the experience factor goes to. Goes to Milwaukee, but I think from a talent and you know, Mark Daniels is. Is unproven as a playoff coach, but I think we think extremely highly of him as a coach. I think in a playoff coaching adjustment situation, I think we'd probably lean OKC that way also. So I think. But at the same time, there's still a team you have to account for in. In. In that calculation, I would.
- [34:02]
Dave Dufour
I would go. Hold on. I would say this. Barring a trade, I think they'd be in the top. That they would be out of the top four. As Seth was talking about what I would say. I want to. I would make sure Seth hears this part here for a second. You know.
- [34:22]
Mo Daquil
We had an alarm going off in the background, so we had to go.
- [34:24]
Dave Dufour
And it was driving me nuts. I'm sorry, folks. And it. A creepy way, as if, like, a creepy music sort of thing as Seth was talking. And I was, like, looking over my shoulder thinking somebody was about to kill me.
- [34:35]
Seth Partnow
Yeah, this, like, aromatherapy hotel room that has, like, funny music and lights and, like, orange blossoms in the shower.
- [34:41]
Mo Daquil
Football just does things so much differently.
- [34:44]
Dave Dufour
But I wanted to say this. I totally disagree with you in the OKC versus Milwaukee thing. Listen, as great as okc, his, there's a lot of unprovenness of them in the playoffs. Like, they're awesome. I got to watch them up close. And I'll be honest with you, they struggled against the Clippers. They got beat by the Lakers twice. Like, the way I look at them, like, I know it's kind of the lull of the season and whatnot, I would put Milwaukee ahead of them. Not saying OKC doesn't have a chance, but I'm just saying Milwaukee's chances got to be higher than OKC if we're looking at comparing those two championship odds. But you're right. And they're out of the top four right now, barring a trade where they can bring in a guy like Caruso or something, something like that.
- [35:23]
Mo Daquil
Okay, so that, that's a pin on that one. More big news that we can react to, guys. We had a trade yesterday. Terry Rosier leaving Charlotte. The black hole of suck that the team is being traded to the Miami Heat. What an upgrade. He's traded for Kyle Lowry in a 2027 first round pick. Seth, you're doing like field goals.
- [35:51]
Seth Partnow
This is so I have before we, like you said, mentioned the back black hole of Charlotte. Charlotte is I believe 10 and 11 in games that are in the clutch and oh, and 20 in games that aren't. Their largest win this season has been by seven points. There hasn't been. I've only gone back to 1970-71, but in that time period, there's never been a team that didn't have at least one double digit win in a season.
- [36:17]
Mo Daquil
So are they worse than the Pistons secretly?
- [36:20]
Seth Partnow
No, they're, I mean they're 30th in that rating.
- [36:23]
Mo Daquil
They have less talent.
- [36:25]
Dave Dufour
They have, they have less talent but the, at least they play the talent. They have a better coach.
- [36:30]
Mo Daquil
So. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:31]
Seth Partnow
No, the trial or for, for purposes of what they're trying to achieve, maybe they're, they're more their worst coach. Like, they like achievement and achievement in, in draft pick equity. Oscar goes to, you know.
- [36:45]
Mo Daquil
Yeah, that's a fair point. Let's talk about the Kyle Lowry part of this real quick because Rosier is actually, he's going to play in Miami. He's going to be a part of a contender and Lowry is likely going to be a buyout guy. Unfortunately, the new CBA makes it fairly unlikely he's going to be able to go play for a contender. The, the new tax rules, they, they prohibit, you know, signing buyout guys and that's rough, man. Kyle Lowry, I think could contribute. I mean we talked about the Bucks needing a backup point guard. I mean, you know, could they, could he fill in there and help them out? I, I just don't think he's going to get the opportunity.
- [37:25]
Seth Partnow
They can't sign him like Phoenix can't. I think the one team that, that, that, the, that that can is, is Philadelphia, which is, you know, it's from Philadelphia also.
- [37:36]
Mo Daquil
So could we handle Joel Embiid and Kyle Lowry on the court together at the same time?
- [37:43]
Seth Partnow
That would be a lot of falling down.
- [37:46]
Mo Daquil
I actually, I, I hope he signs in Philly. That would be fun. But now let's talk about Terry Rosier part of this. Obviously Miami. I don't know how they do this. They're always in the mix. He is a huge pickup for them. They've needed some more potent guard play. They need another guy who can. Can score a little bit because that's been one of their big problems this season. And Terry Rosier is a guy. I mean, he's played in the playoffs. He's got experience. I, I like this fit a lot.
- [38:13]
Dave Dufour
Yeah, I like it for Miami. It makes sense. I mean, just replacing Kyle Lowry, who really wasn't giving you much, hasn't really fit with the team, to be honest, ever since he got there. So, like, it's an upgrade in that sense. You know. How much of an upgrade is this? Like, okay, you go from maybe the six seed to the four seed. Like, I, I don't know. Here's the thing about Miami. You always have to be afraid of them just because the way they, the way the organization operates, the ways foe gets the most out of everybody, you know, like, I'm gonna take a shot at Portland. Brace yourselves, guys. I know you just had the ice storm, but here comes some heat. The. How bad does it look now that they just had no interest in Jaime Hawkes? How bad does that look? Because that dude's a baller.
- [38:57]
Seth Partnow
I, I don't think they had. I think that the Heat had no interest in trading them. I mean, Aquez.
- [39:02]
Dave Dufour
They could have gotten. They could have gotten Hawkes if they, if, if in that situation. I honestly believe that. And if they really pushed, they didn't even. You know, what they would have never known because they didn't engage. But that's a whole other story for another time. But that's, that's a massive miss for them. He's better than anything they got in that trade.
- [39:20]
Seth Partnow
Just next on 5 Reason Sports.
- [39:26]
Dave Dufour
I'm kidding.
- [39:27]
Seth Partnow
I'm kidding. Go ahead.
- [39:31]
Dave Dufour
But I just think with Miami, like, that's a great fit. Tough guard. Everything that he does, his, his, the game. Like, I think him and bam in the second side or DHO actions in the second unit are going to be something to really kind of watch for at the end of the day. Like this team's a playoff team and that means. And they're, they're a pain in the ass when you have to play them in the playoffs. So like, I don't know if it makes them. Puts them up in the contender list or whatever, but I think it puts them in a, a better position than where they were just for purely upgrading on the fact that Lowry wasn't giving them much and Lowry has looked washed. Every now and then we'd see flashes but that was about it I think.
- [40:08]
Seth Partnow
I mean one way to think about this is rosier is going to give them like the gold plated version of what they got from Gabe Vincent last year.
- [40:16]
Mo Daquil
Right.
- [40:17]
Dave Dufour
Like he's like don't disrespect Gabe Vincent.
- [40:19]
Seth Partnow
I know, I'm not disrespecting Gabe Vincent but Terry Ozierson like. But a similar. Like yeah, like. Like maybe undersized combo guard but very physically tough in and you know a NFL.
- [40:32]
Mo Daquil
He fits Miami spirit.
- [40:33]
Seth Partnow
Absolutely.
- [40:34]
Mo Daquil
Yeah, he is a Miami Heat guy.
- [40:36]
Seth Partnow
And, and you know, low key has been, you know, has turned himself into a very effective shooter and you know we had never hear about him because he's in you know the, the vortex black hole of. Yeah, yeah. So I think no, it's a, it's. It's a good pickup for them. Be interesting to see if this kind of, you know, not to look too far ahead but we are entering trade season if this sort of sets a. What I think is a pretty reasonable market for like, you know, players of that level. Good play. Good but not star players. Like you know, an expiring and a first is. That's not nothing that Charlotte said. It's a decent, I think it's a decent deal for Charlotte. So you know, in the last couple years we've seen teams, you know, step forward. Fred Van Vliet seen teams kind of play themselves by just by. By not saying yes to a good offer for, for players in this kind of situation. And so maybe, maybe that helps set the market at a more rational level. And we see some of these, you know, the Malcolm Brogdon and whoever else you want to say are the, the. The interesting kind of last piece targets around the league kind of do end up moving towards the deadline.
- [41:48]
Dave Dufour
I mean, I think also the other thing is this is probably the start of a fire sale in Charlotte. They're trying to get more picks. You know, I don't think they'll find a home for Gordon Hayward, but they're going to try, you know, and that's another guy that would probably qualify for an expiring and a first as well. Maybe not a high first but I think like, you know there's, there's going to be a lot of stuff circling around them. So it's a good move for, for Miami. I don't. Again, it helps them. I don't know if it Makes them any more of a contender than not, I'd still be afraid to play them in the playoffs, you know, like they're just a tough ass team, plain and simple. I mean, this team is built for playoff. Like we're just ask all the teams they knocked out last year, all of them, you know, like they're a tough team. And I think that's going to be the challenge for them. Kind of going, I mean, challenge for everybody else going forward is this team got a little tougher.
- [42:38]
Mo Daquil
Yeah. You guys watched Joel score 70 the other night, right?
- [42:44]
Dave Dufour
Yes.
- [42:45]
Mo Daquil
Okay, number one, I'm going to say this. Victor Wimanyama was incredibly impressive in that game. Incredibly impressive, yes, offensively. But nobody's guarding Embiid. Joel Embiid was absurd. Absurd in that game. Mo, I, I have this. We, we talk about this a lot off air, but I'm gonna bring it onto the podcast. There is a perception that Joel Embiid is just bum hunting. And I know that the San Antonio spurs are a bunch of bums outside of Victor Women. Yama. What Joel Embiid is doing the last few weeks especially, I mean, he's averaging 40 a game for like his last seven, 16 or 17 games. This is insane. This in the modern NBA, like this just doesn't happen.
- [43:34]
Dave Dufour
I'm more just tired of the whole conversation around Impede now at this point. In the same way I was tired about it with Giannis, I was tired when we did it with Jokic. I was. I mean, we've done it with everybody. But it's okay. None of this shit matters until he wins a championship or has playoff success. Yes. Embiid has had playoff failure after playoff failure after playoff failure for a variety of reasons. Some of it's incredibly bad luck. Like, you know, the new coach of Milwaukee keeping him in the game, that's obviously a blowout. And he takes an elbow to the face and has an orbital fracture. Like there's a whole bunch of different weird things that have happened around him. There's also been just massive playoff failures around him. Right. Like losing that game seven against Atlanta. That's also on him. We can scream about Ben Simmons all we want. He had like a thousand turnovers that game. There's all of those things. But I am just tired of constantly, every time a guy has something that's amazing and an accomplishment to play down something, is scoring 70 points in a game to then go, well, he's got to do it in the playoffs.
- [44:37]
Mo Daquil
Fuck off.
- [44:39]
Dave Dufour
That only 14 guys have done that. Okay? Like just get the fuck out of here with this. I'm tired of it.
- [44:47]
Seth Partnow
It.
- [44:47]
Dave Dufour
Okay, yeah. We're gonna be on these guys. They can't do it until they do it. We've done it with everybody and it's tired. We did it all the way to Jordan. Jordan used to just be considered a guy that you can't win a championship. Win won six. No. I'm dropping a lot of F bomb. Sorry, Dave. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're doing. I mean, it's just unbelievable in that, like we just can't enjoy it, you know, and it's all that stuff. Yes. He's beating up on bad teams. He's supposed to beat up on bad teams.
- [45:17]
Mo Daquil
That's right.
- [45:18]
Dave Dufour
Like, what's he supposed to do? He's supposed to torture Wemby. Who, who, who, who couldn't cut up, keep up with him physical physically. He's supposed to destroy Zach Collins. Like, come on, man. Like, what are we supposed to do in all of this stuff? Like, he's doing it within the flow of the offense.
- [45:34]
Mo Daquil
It's not his fault. Philadelphia plays Detroit 18 times a season.
- [45:39]
Dave Dufour
Bring it up with the schedule makers. But like the constant. Just do it in the playoffs. And we did this with Jokic, we did this with Giannis. Can't get it done. Can't get it done. All we care about in that sense, I'm tired of let's enjoy the stuff that we're getting and if he never gets it done in the playoffs, that will be part of his legacy. Unbelievable regular season player. Great, because I'm gonna watch his ass in the regular season because he's doing amazing things and it's incredible efficiency. I've never seen a big man hit the mid range jumpers like this since dirt. Like at that point where it's just so comfortable and so easy in that regard. I'm just tired of it, man. Just go. It's to the point where even Embiid brings it up in post game press conferences. Won't matter until I do it in the playoffs. Like, come on, man.
- [46:24]
Mo Daquil
They're, you know, Embiid and Jokic as big men, three level scorers is so hard for us to wrap our heads around. I think his mid range game is just absurd.
- [46:35]
Seth Partnow
What?
- [46:36]
Mo Daquil
One, the other thing that happened that night. I don't know if you got a rant on this one, Mo, but I do. A big man scoring 62 in a game and getting benched down the stretch. Carl Anthony Towns, he might have, you Know, I was texting with Ben Taylor from thinking basketball. He said that Carl Anthony Towns may have had the fastest 50 point game in NBA history. I'm sure he'll, you know, do a video if that's the case. But he was hunting and apparently the story came out that at halftime the Timberwolves saw what Embiid did and they decided, hey Cat, how about we get you 70? And they lost to the Charlotte Hornets.
- [47:19]
Seth Partnow
In a clutch game. In a clutch game. Yeah.
- [47:23]
Dave Dufour
And Terry Rozier was great in that game and that was his last game.
- [47:27]
Mo Daquil
Am I wrong here for feeling like I'm a little bit, bit out on Minnesota right now?
- [47:32]
Seth Partnow
It's unserious.
- [47:33]
Mo Daquil
Yeah, thank you.
- [47:35]
Seth Partnow
It's. And, and I think that, and you know, we've gone round and round on Cat and sort of, you know, most point is well taken about Embiid. He does, I think to, for to be in the level of the conversation he would like to put himself. He does have to do it in the playoffs. That's all true. But the difference between like Embiid and then Cat in terms of that level of trust is just a huge margin. And I think this, this, this game is, is such a perfect encapsulation of that.
- [48:10]
Dave Dufour
It's, it's everything we're afraid for the Minnesota Timberwolves in the, in the playoffs, right? Decision making, being smart, being mature. They kept saying that at the end of the post game press conferences talking maturity, maturity, maturity. Not a surprise Mike Conley didn't play that game. And all the maturity went out the window. The difference between the 70 point game that Embiid had and the 62 point game that Towns had was Embiid's was in the flow of the offense. It's how they've operated. And then he just dominated. They were gunning for Towns, trying to get him everything and the dude ran out of gas. And I think that's the important thing there. And that took them completely out of their rhythm. That took them completely out of their flow. They built an 18 point lead and Charlotte came storming back in the second in the fourth quarter. And a lot of it had to do with the fact that Cat was gunning to the point that Finch just said, screw it, I got to put you on the bench, man. You're killing us. And they weren't even defending. Embiid was doing all the other things in that game that he played. He had like 18 rebounds in that, that 70 point game that gets kind of lost. And there was like 18 or 17.
- [49:18]
Mo Daquil
Something like that he was dominant in that game.
- [49:20]
Dave Dufour
He was all over the place. Yeah. Five assists like he was making great passes. He had a beautiful dime to Kelly U underneath the basket on a cut. Like there's a bunch of different things. Cat was gunning and you could see it when you watch the two. I watched both of those, I broke both of those down on my twitch stream and just saying like you can kind of see the difference in that game in that stuff. And I think that was the, the, the difference between the two was one was in the flow of the offense, the other one was giving gunning for it. And not to say Embiid doesn't gun for things. He's continuing to try this 30 point scoring thing or what.
- [49:56]
Mo Daquil
I think the 70 point game was a little bit of gunning. It's a, that's Victor Wimanyama. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put him in the basket as many times as I possibly can. But hey, guess what? It's a great strategy. I, I like that's winning basketball. Carl Anthony Towns and I'm look, I'm not going to be one of these guys who's like you're 6 10, why are you shooting all these jumpers? But you're 610 and you can dribble and you can do stuff. You don't, you don't have to live and die by the jump shot. As a matter of fact, Carl Anthony Towns, if he had made the same evolution that Joel Embiid has made into a true three level guy where he's got this mid range game so you know you, if you guard him at the three point line, he can get to the mid range, he can get to the basket. I think we feel differently about him. But also I mean it's the defensive end. He doesn't bring any of the intensity that Joel Embiid does. And Joel Embiid brings that intensity against the good teams, the bad teams and the in between. And, and that's the difference between those two guys. I mean I just felt like the dichotomy between the 70 game and the 62 point game was, was fascinating because it's two incredibly talented players, one extremely serious and one that I just, I just, I just don't think he's ever going to win anything.
- [51:07]
Seth Partnow
It's his ninth year and we're talking about maturity.
- [51:11]
Mo Daquil
Yeah. And we're always going to talk about it.
- [51:13]
Dave Dufour
He's just not, it's like you said, unserious and it's.
- [51:17]
Seth Partnow
And, and I think that, that you know, there's a, there's a stat we've talked about a little bit, which is turnovers. Cat had seven. And if you want to look at one of the Achilles heels I think that the Timberwolves face as a, as a playoff team is okay. Both Cat and Naz Reed, like, okay for big men, they can shoot a little. They could have put it on the floor. The problem is when both of them are very turnover prone when they drive. And so this is, you know, I think it's a, is it a skill set thing, is a maturity thing? It's some of both. But I think that you're going to see in the playoffs that there's going to be a lot of them getting crowded and then trying to dribble into traffic and trying to make a play and tossing up bad shots or charging or getting, picking up a charge or just losing the ball in traffic. And I think that that's going to, that's going to prove to be something that really gets in the way of them being able to play the way they would want to play in a postseason setting.
- [52:15]
Mo Daquil
Well, I think that this is a pretty good place to stop for the week. Unless you guys got anything else before we close up shop?
- [52:21]
Dave Dufour
No, I used all my F bombs.
- [52:23]
Mo Daquil
Yeah, you used all your F bombs this week. All right, well, for Seth Part now and Motokeel, I'm Dave DeFore and this is Been Nerder she wrote on the Athletic NBA show.
- [52:47]
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Dave Dufour
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- [54:14]
Seth Partnow
Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF.
- [54:17]
Dave Dufour
It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week.
- [54:23]
Seth Partnow
Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal. Yeah. I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
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- [54:37]
Dave Dufour
Of death?
- [54:37]
Mo Daquil
Death?
- [54:38]
Seth Partnow
Well, I don't know. I think about it all the time. How are we here already?
- [54:41]
Dave Dufour
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice.
- [54:43]
Seth Partnow
A week on your favorite podcast app.
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Dave Dufour
Or get more WTF with a WTF subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF.
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Dave Dufour
Acast.com.