Who are the REAL Contenders? | Morning Shoot Around

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily – "Who are the REAL Contenders? | Morning Shoot Around"

Date: December 18, 2025
Hosts: Andrew Schlecht (A), Zena Keita (D), Dave DuFour (C)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers around identifying and analyzing the real contenders in the NBA at the midway point of the 2025-26 season. The hosts revisit their “way too early” preseason conference rankings, debate which teams have lived up to, exceeded, or fallen below expectations, and redefine the true “contender” status in both the East and West, with a keen focus on analytics, roster construction, and team identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections on the NBA Cup and Its Future

Timestamps: 03:26–13:24

• Vegas as the Cup Venue: The crew reflects on the recent NBA Cup in Vegas, praising its execution but questioning whether Vegas provides the ideal atmosphere.
  • "Imagine a whole arena of those Spurs ultras—that would be a fun time. The gap between a good NBA crowd at a home arena versus what we saw is giant." (C, 08:03)
• Neutral Sites vs. Home Arenas: Discuss the pros and cons of keeping the Cup in Vegas, moving to smaller venues, or hosting at "blue blood" college arenas.
  • "I actually like the idea of it being in a smaller arena. I think it’s an interesting experiment." (A, 09:08)
  • "Let’s make it a home game for the fans of the teams... Just give us the extra home night." (C, 10:25)
• Atmosphere Considerations: Suggest bringing in the home team’s arena staff and MCs to boost the atmosphere at neutral sites.
  • "Let the fans feel like they have a connection... Both MCs from both teams. Let’s have like a competition." (D, 12:10)

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2. Revisiting Preseason Contender Rankings

Timestamps: 13:29–24:15

• Approach: The team revisits preseason East/West rankings to see what's changed, focusing on which teams are genuine contenders and which have faded.
  • "Who are like the real contenders, you know, and also like, define contender and then who are the real contenders?" (A, 13:53)

Eastern Conference

• Initial Tiers Recap:
  • Contenders: Knicks, Cavs
  • Fringe Contenders: Pistons, Hawks, Magic
  • Dark Horse: Celtics, Sixers, Bucks
  • Play-in: Raptors, Bulls, Heat, Pacers
  • "Loser for Boozer": Wizards, Nets, Hornets
• Major Adjustments:
  • The Cavs have tumbled, no longer seen as contenders.
  • The Bucks’ struggles prompt discussion about falling out of the contender mix.
  • "I think I would put Boston up there. Boston’s been really good... I’m a big believer in point differential as a number to look at when we’re talking about contenders." (A, 19:34)
• Point Differential as a Proxy for Strength:
  • Knicks and Pistons lead the East for point differential and, thus, are strongest contenders, with Boston following.
  • "If you did that, your top six in the East would be Knicks, Pistons, Celtics, Magic, Heat, Raptors." (A, 19:52)

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3. Contender Status Debates

Timestamps: 15:22–24:48

• Cavs Crisis: Ongoing struggles, lack of team identity, and questions about internal issues.
  • "Do you guys trust the Cavs in any way? ...They are first-round out right now to me." (C, 21:04)
  • "I think that the league has caught up to these guys in a different way." (C, 25:18)
• Team Identity: Identity and locker-room culture as the litmus test for contender status.
  • "Where’s the identity?" (A, 22:51), reflecting the broader issue with the Cavs.

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4. Defining “Real Contenders” in the West

Timestamps: 32:39–55:32

• Initial Tiers Recap:
  • Contenders: OKC, Denver
  • Fringe: Wolves, Rockets, Clippers
  • Dark Horse: Lakers, Warriors
  • Play-in: Blazers, Grizzlies, Mavericks, Spurs
  • Bottom ("Gas Station Sandwiches"): Jazz, Pelicans, Kings, Suns
• Clippers’ Collapse: Reflect on what went wrong despite preseason optimism.
  • "Every move they made backfired. Every single one. John Collins has not worked out for them. Going big has not been good. Zubach has actually been up and down... but every move that they made to improve failed." (C, 36:28)
  • "It’s a big swing, a 12 point swing in the wrong direction for [Harden/Zubats] duo." (A, 38:24)
• Warriors’ Decline: Age and lack of identity hampering performance.
  • "There isn’t an identity. They turn it over way too much... As you mentioned, Dave, the age thing, you want to count on the consistency you’d expect from older players..." (D, 40:56)
• Lakers, Spurs, and Rockets:
  • The Lakers get downgraded: "I just don’t trust a team that has [Ayton] at the center position...The defense stinks." (A, 49:41, 50:58)
  • Spurs and Rockets considered “fringe contenders,” with Spurs' development praised.
• “Guys you cannot count out”: Jokic, Shai, Steph, Luca cited for playoff intangibility (D, 51:33).
  • "Would it be crazy if the Spurs wound up in the Conference Finals? No, I don't think that'd be crazy." (A, 48:43)
• Depth and Two-Way Play: Last year’s postseason lessons: the best teams had defensive depth, supporting limiting the Lakers’ ceiling.

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5. Most Notable and Memorable Quotes

On the Cup Atmosphere

• "The difference between a good NBA crowd at a home arena versus what we saw for Thunder-Spurs—the gap is giant." (A, 07:51)
• "Let both MCs from both teams duel it out. Death match in the middle of the court with the NBA cup suspended over the top." (C, 12:45)

Evaluation of Contenders

• "I’m a big believer in point differential... Only two teams have a plus-six, and those are the teams I’d put at contender." (A, 19:34)
• "If you’re relying on Dillon Brooks to create your culture, you have no culture.” (A, 32:30)

On the Cavs’ Downfall

• "Last year, I knew what X, Y, and Z was for them. This year, I’m just kind of like—depends on who they play." (D, 22:52)
• "They’re playing big and somehow get out-bigged." (C, 25:18)

The Clippers’ Failure

• "Every move that they made... backfired. Every single one." (C, 36:28)
• "Their two best players have not played very well so far this season. And a lot of it on the defensive end." (A, 38:47)

The Lakers, Identity, and Roster

• "It’s crazy to put a team with that much [star] power...” (C, 50:53)
• "Their supporting cast is too much of a novelty as opposed to a consistency." (D, 54:15)
• "The Lakers have this stretch in their season that has propped them up quite a bit..." (A, 49:01)

Playoff X-factors

• "Guys you cannot count out—Jokic, Shai, Steph, Luca." (C, 51:33)
• "Depth really matters. The teams that got there with good defensive depth are the ones that were standing there at the end." (A, 52:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• NBA Cup Venue Debate: 03:26–13:24
• Eastern Conference Rankings Revisit: 13:29–24:15
• Cavs’ Identity and Future: 15:22–24:48
• Clippers and Warriors Discussion: 32:39–42:24
• Lakers & Contender Criteria in the West: 45:00–54:43
• Recap and Lessons Learned: 54:43–55:32

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Tone & Language

The hosts keep a conversational, witty, sometimes teasing tone, staying analytical but mixing in humor and sarcasm (gas station sandwiches, MC death matches, fake Steph trades).

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Real contenders are as much about depth, identity, and current performance as star power and preseason reputation.
• Cavs and Clippers are case studies in how quickly contender status can evaporate.
• Use of analytics: Point differential cited as a more reliable indicator of strength than mere win/loss record.
• Atmosphere matters: For new tournaments like the NBA Cup, fan engagement and venue selection impact legitimacy.
• Playoff success demands more than stars—two-way players and consistency are vital.

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This summary covers the main arguments, insights, and memorable exchanges, giving non-listeners a full grasp of the pod’s themes, debates, and conclusions.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, Andrew Schlecht here. The NBA on Prime is back this Friday with another thrilling doubleheader. It tips off with Tyrese Maxey and Those spunky Philadelphia 76ers heading up to Madison Square Garden to take on Jalen Brunson and the New York Knicks. Then the action heads west as SGA and the Oklahoma City Thunder visit Anthony Edwards and the Minnesota Timberwolves. That's a rematch of the Western Conference finals, by the way. And if you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started today. Sixers and Knicks, the Thunder and the T Wolves. I can't wait to watch both these matchups. High powered guards in the Eastern Conference. Aries Maxi's taking a leap. If you haven't watched Tyrese Maxey play, this is the perfect setting. Everybody wants to play well at msg. And then Ant versus sga. We got Fire versus Ice. I mean come on, everybody wants to watch this one. Coverage starts Friday at 6:30pm Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details.

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[A]

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[A]

Welcome to the morning shoot around here on the Athletic NBA Daily. I'm your host Andrew Schlecht. With me I've got Zena Keda.

[D]

What up?

[C]

Got Dave Defore and I've got the Cup.

[D]

Made it home to la.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Barely Guys, I'm taking over the FBI. I don't know if you guys heard. Gonna be a change there. I'm looking for a new podcaster.

[D]

It's gonna be me. Wait, are you serious right now? The thing is, like, you can say anything right now. What's going on?

[C]

And I would be like, there is. There is a direct podcaster to FBI Director Pipeline, and I'm just trying to get in it, guys.

[D]

Oh, gotcha.

[C]

You know, I'm feeling the Vegas hangover. Yeah. It means I'm. I'm definitely ready for the job.

[A]

I wondered if you guys had any. Any leftover thoughts from the cup just as we've gotten away from it a little bit.

[C]

Yeah, actually.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Actually, I've got a couple. I've got a couple takes.

[D]

Wait. Okay. Before you get in your takes, I will say this, because I think the takes are going to be actually about the basketball, but I just wanted to say this morning, like, I was randomly thinking about, man, I've been flying around having to go to the cup, and it's holidays, I haven't shopped yet, etc. Whatever. But then I was like, I can't imagine the NBA staff that is headquartered in New York being in Vegas a week before Christmas before the holidays, like, being on site, making it incredibly simple for us, the media, to be welcomed to experience this, like, media, the NBA Cup. And I literally sent an email to one of their staff members to just be like, thank you. Because I can't even imagine, like, I was. I'm stressed with my schedule, trying to figure out the holidays and being at the cup and having a good experience, et cetera. And they made it really easy for us to enjoy it and to, you know, know where to be at what times, etc. So I just wanted to give a shout out to the NBA staff. Like, these people are hosting folks from all over the world for a very short period of time in a different city than they typically are in. And so they've done a really great job of welcoming us and making it easy for us. Okay. Dave takes away Knicks are lame for.

[C]

Not hanging the banner. Oh, okay. That's my take.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

The cup is great. The cup is great. We talked the other day about the. The few issues with it, but the cup itself. Fun. That. That title game was fun. Yeah, a lot of fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And we weren't even thinking about the Knicks like this, to be honest with you. I have a different opinion of the Knicks after watching them in that game. I thought that, like, what we said With James the other day, they needed to win the game. I want to see what happens. What, what happens when the Knicks act like they're the best team, you know, on the court. And I thought it was pretty good to see. But yeah, I. The cup is great. It's awesome. I have, I disagree completely with James Edwards. Boo that man.

[A]

Yeah, people did. People.

[C]

They did. They booed the hell out of him.

[A]

Yeah, they did.

[D]

I like the cup and you know, it's funny, the, the whole premise of this was started around wanting to give games of consequence earlier in the season.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And just want to shout out. I know folks don't like it, but the WNBA was doing it. They've been doing it. The Commissioner's cup is a thing and it's fun and I'm happy that they brought it over to the NBA and the players like it. I've never, I mean I would not have imagined how happy Carl Anthony Towns was to win that trophy. And after we saw him in the corridors holding on to that trophy.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. Like he like.

[C]

That cup, went to dinner.

[D]

Yeah, for sure. Just to answer a question I see in the comments, I am 6:1, so the comment is more so about everyone.

[C]

Yeah. She's six one and like she's so good about giving us a little bit of grace and standing back. Look. Doesn't look too tall.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Even took off my heels for one show. So. Yep. There you go.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

It's true.

[A]

That is true.

[C]

Okay. But hold on. To be fair though, your feet hurt. It wasn't.

[D]

That's true. That's true.

[C]

Where anybody was worried about it. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody's worried about standing next to Xena.

[D]

Facts got confident men around me.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, we're good.

[A]

I did think it was interesting what Adam Silver said about potentially playing these games at like blue blood college arenas.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Instead I, I do think. I mean it's obviously in jeopardy whether or not they're gonna play in Vegas again, which I think makes sense. I mean as much as some people would want to talk about how the crowd was good, the crowd is not good.

[C]

Well, no, no, no. The crowd was good considering. Right. It wasn't that it was a good crowd. It was our expect. Our expectations were low. And the difference between the Knicks Magic game and the Spurs Thunder game on Saturday, I mean it was night and day.

[A]

Yeah. But also like the difference between a good NBA crowd at a home arena versus what we saw for, for, for Thunder spurs is the gap is giant. The gap is giant. And so.

[D]

And that was even with the. The spurs, like, oh, what were they doing? The cheer, Dave, you know it.

[C]

Oh, the Ghostburs go.

[A]

I mean, well, they were doing Ghostbusters goes.

[D]

But they were also doing like the European like soccer team.

[C]

I'm gonna give these guys the ultras. The, the spurs ultras that were out there. I mean, that was a fun time.

[D]

Yeah, but imagine a whole arena of those.

[C]

Exactly.

[D]

Right. Yeah.

[C]

That Thunder, Thunder spurs game, that was the biggest game of the year. And if it had been in one of the home arenas, it would have been pretty amazing as far as the atmosphere goes. That being said, game was great. I enjoyed it being in the building, but it does seem like it's going away. I don't like the idea of playing in the college towns. I actually would rather make it for the fans of the teams and just. Let's make it a home game. It's. It's, you know, it's fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

There's a limit. You have to. We're trying to monetize and do all these other things. Just give the fans.

[C]

You're doing too much.

[D]

I think it's doing too much. Exactly. Give the fans of these teams the opportunity to support them in their hometowns. Like, what are we talking about right now? It's a little much. Yeah.

[A]

I don't. I actually like the idea of it being in a smaller arena. I think it's an interesting experiment. I think it would.

[D]

Could it be in the town where the team is from?

[A]

I. I don't know. I. I'm okay with being neutral site. I'm okay.

[D]

I'm Put it like this. I'm gonna put it like this. Imagine that, Nick spurs game. We take it to Duke's Cameron Indoor Stadium. Yeah, you'd want.

[C]

That stinks.

[A]

I would like to see it. Yes.

[D]

I don't even know if North Carolina would show up for either one of those teams. Like you're saying, like. I don't. It feels random.

[A]

Well, the, the teams need to do a better job of just like sending fans there. Like. Yeah. Get your. I mean, we're only filling. What is it, like 8,000. Maybe that can fit Cameron Indoor.

[D]

There's a smaller arena available in Vegas, but, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I just wonder. I just wonder about it being in a different setting like that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I just think that they. They need to try something else because I just don't think Vegas. I mean, while it's been really fun, that's been fun for us. Like, I don't know that it's the best thing for the league and like the best look for the league to try to fill that arena.

[C]

Well, again, their goal is they want a Super bowl like event. They want a tent pole event. They want people to travel for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know. I mean, you put it in Lawrence, Kansas. Are we going there?

[A]

Heck yeah.

[C]

I, I just don't think so, Andrew. That's like, I can't see my face.

[D]

If you're listening, but I'm just like.

[C]

The reality of, of the NBA doing something in one of these, these non NBA arena. I just think it's small and if I was one of the team owners, I wouldn't be happy about that either. I would say, hey, just give us the extra home night. Now that has its own challenges because obviously the arenas have other things going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, during the season.

[A]

That's the tricky part.

[C]

But that's how they wound up in my like I think that that's how they wound up with this neutral site in Vegas. It's just easier to book that out ahead of time.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Than it is to say, hey, we're going to keep this date open at the Intuit Dome. I know you guys want to get, you know, Beyonce to roll through here that night, but the NBA cup is more important. So let's just save that. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Saving the date for an NBA game is tough if you don't think you're actually going to get it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or, or maybe you just book it at like an NBA hungry city, like Kansas City, Seattle, you know, you just like.

[C]

Well, you bounce. In my opinion.

[D]

I like the final in Vegas though. It gives the flair. I just think that they need to do it in a small arena. And Michelob Ultra arena fits 12,000 people versus T Mobile, which is like 2018-20 maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Make it smaller, more compact. Just the final and then you've got your tent pole event that's a little bit early and you sell it out. I mean don't get me wrong, like it was packed in the final.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It just wasn't the same like vibe. Also, I, I think that there is something to be said about if you're going to make it a neutral site. They try to make these games feel like quote unquote, home games fly out those people's arena people. No shade to Frenchie and the other woman that was doing the the in arena, like commentating, etc. No. Let the fans feel like they have a connection to the people that you know and let the let the MCs duel it out. Both MCs from both teams. Like, let's, let's have like a competition.

[C]

Death match in the middle of the court with the NBA cup suspended over the top. It just, you know what it's for.

[D]

That part felt too neutral. I feel like you got to get some familiarity so people feel like, okay, yeah, like it's going to be. We can make it a home team now. Make it a competition to see which fan base can make it more of a home game than the other.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm, I'm interested to see where this all goes.

[C]

It's, it's, it's been fun, it's been successful. I'm into it. I'm excited to see where they wind up next year.

[D]

Yeah, that was a word play of where Dave wants it to be, which is into a dome, which is up.

[A]

The street from me.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. Give me the 20 minutes drive.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

For real. Okay. I wanted to look back. We did, we did a, A couple podcasts in the summer of like way too early west rankings and way too early east rankings.

[D]

Oh, no.

[A]

And so I wanted to pull those up and talk through them and see what changes we would make to these and talk about Clippers.

[C]

I can tell you that Clippers for sure.

[A]

Who are like the real contenders, you know, like who. And also like define contender and then who are the real contenders? So I thought we could do that and use our way too early rankings as a vehicle to do that. So here are the Eastern Conference way too early rankings. If you are just listening on the podcast app or Spotify or wherever the contenders that we have.

[D]

We weren't too bad on this one. Not bad.

[A]

It's not bad.

[C]

Not bad.

[D]

We were too bad on this one. You know, the only One is that Cavs 1Y.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[D]

That's the loud one that I'm looking at.

[A]

Let's talk through it. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna read these out for our podcast listeners. The contenders, the Knicks and the Cavs. The fringe contenders, the Pistons, Hawks and Magic. The dark horse contenders, Celtics, Sixers and Bucks. The play in teams, Raptors, Bulls, Heat, Pacers and then loser for Boozer, we have the Wizards, the Nets and the Hornets. So okay, let's. Let's start from the bottom and see like, do we want to add any losers for Boozer? I think all three of those teams belong there. I think that the Pacers now belong there. The. I think everybody else, I Mean, I guess the. Are we going to put the bucks down there? Loser.

[D]

I mean, technically.

[A]

I mean, they're losing.

[D]

Well, one, they definitely aren't dark horses. Like, that's for certain.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I don't know if I would put them as loser for boozer, but I still think that they're just outside the play, and so it. Technically, they would be the last in for loser for boozer.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think that when Giannis gets back, they'll. They'll. They'll put themselves in the. In the play, and they're. Right now they're a game. A half a game back from the bulls for 10th.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the Bulls are just perpetually one of these teams. I also think that the Hawks have just been kind of meh. And probably they're both. Yeah.

[D]

Slide back down Giannis, Hawks down. Trey. It makes sense that they're kind of slagging a little bit, but would you take. I would definitely take the Hawks maybe out of fringe contenders.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And I might put them in the dark horse category or. I would put them in the dark horse category.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I just don't.

[C]

There's not a lot of fringe contending in the East.

[D]

That's a good.

[A]

No.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. I agree. I.

[D]

The point.

[A]

Maybe. This is crazy, but my fringe contenders will. Would probably be. If I would give you the list today, I'd have Orlando.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I would have Cleveland here, and I would have Boston here.

[C]

Interesting.

[D]

Yeah, I definitely would put Boston in my French contenders now. They're just. They've just been solid, like, not unbelievable. Not the Celtics that we've known of, you know, recent years, but they've just been consistent. But yeah. Interesting that you would still put the Cavs infringe contenders. Not counting them out, huh?

[A]

I'm not. I'm certainly not counting them out, but it. I don't want to completely slide them out of. I don't want to put them in the dark horse category. They still basically have the same team that they did last year.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were the team that was supposed to be contending. Now, they've recently had some bad losses, and they look really bad. The vibes are really, really bad with this team, so I don't quite know what to do with them. So I'm, like, tentatively sliding them only back one slot now. Talk to me in three weeks, and if they're still looking this bad, they can slide down to the plan, which is where they are right now. They're 15 and 13. Right now. They're in ninth in the Eastern Conference, which is really bad. It's really bad.

[D]

That's why I'm like, I can't. I can't put them in the fringe contenders. I kind of want to put them in that, like, just outside the play in Dark Horse category. Just because, as you mentioned, they have the same personnel, but they are one of the. They're the team in the east that plays down to the level of their competitor. Yeah, they. They do not. They're. I don't know why, but they're not rising above the way they played last year.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Where we. The same way that we looked at OKC in that regardless of who they're playing, you're going to get the same standardized level of excellent play. Cleveland has been very amorphous this year. They're just like, who's in front of us? We'll play to that pace. We'll play to that level. We'll play that physicality. And I think that that's why I'm like, just outside the play in Dark Horse for now.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They're three and seven in their last 10. They are only one and a half games out of the three seed, too.

[D]

Which is, though, baby, that's the East.

[A]

So it's tricky because had they won even if they were.500 in their last 10, like, that's not great. But if that's the case, like, they're in the top five in the east and then, you know, so it's. This is all going to shuffle so much. They're in. They're in an awful place right now. You know, the. The Raptors haven't played great lately either. They're 4 and 6 in their last 10, but they're sitting at third still because the east really outside of Detroit, and the Knicks is just not great.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think I would put Boston up there. Boston's been really good. They. I'm a big believer in point differential as a number to look at when we're talking about, like, contenders or fringe contenders. And typically that number starts at a plus six for, like, a contender historically. And in the Eastern Conference, there are two. Only two teams that have a plus six. And those are the teams I would put at contender, and that's the Pistons and Knicks. The Knicks having the highest point differential in the Eastern conference at a plus 8.8. And then you have the Detroit Pistons at a plus 6.3. And then you have Boston at a plus 5.4. 4. And those are your top three teams in point differential. I'd almost like Use that as an indicator of where these teams are rather than their record because it is so close. And if you did that, your top six teams in the east would be Knicks, Pistons, Celtics, Magic, Heat, Raptors. So those are like the top six in point differential. The Cavs are seventh right now, endpoint differential in the Eastern Conference, followed by the. The Sixers that are a plus one. The Hawks are a plus 0.6. And then everybody else is negative.

[C]

Do you guys trust the Cavs in any way whatsoever? They're first round out right now. To me, yeah.

[D]

That's. I mean, it goes to the point of. It depends on who they play. Right. Right now, I don't think that the Cavs have established themselves right where it's like, you're coming to my table when you come play us. You're gonna. You're gonna have this same level of, you know, the lob threats every single time you play. You're gonna have this level of outside shooting every single time we play, you're gonna have this level of physicality on the wing in terms of defense. Every single time we play. It just seems like one game. They're really good at the lob threat and Evan Mobley is playing above the rim and Jared Allen is playing above. And mind you, they've had injuries, too. I mean, I feel I will give them that. They've had some inconsistencies in their roster throughout the season as well, but that I think that once you have them, even when you have them all available, I just don't know who's going to show up against who. Like whoever they're playing. They played Memphis last night and it just felt like they were a shell of themselves. Yeah. The whole game. So. Yeah, I if first round out. That's tough in the East. I don't know if I'd do first round out with Cat. The Cavaliers.

[C]

That's true. By the East.

[D]

It's the east and it's by that point in the year.

[A]

So they. They didn't. They lost to the Bulls last night, so.

[D]

Oh, the Bull. Sorry. Excuse me. Yes. I'm thinking.

[A]

Yeah, Timberwolves, which is also a bad loss. Like two. Two bad losses last night. But losing to the Bulls, who have been putrid recently.

[D]

Yeah, that. That. Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

Is really. Is really bad.

[D]

It's not good. And again, it's. It. Because Chicago last night was just running them.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And they were in this conversation with. Trying to be in the conversation of running. It's like, no, just where's the defense?

[A]

Where's the identity?

[D]

Where's the identity? Exactly. And. And that's why I'm like, they haven't established themselves as, when you go play Cleveland, you know you're gonna get X, and I am. Last year, I knew what X was. I knew what X, Y, and Z was for them. And this year I'm just kind of like, depends on who they play, so. It's a good question, Dave. I. Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, there's still time, obviously, for them to get it together, but there's. There's clearly something going on in Cleveland. I don't know what it is internally. There's something happening in Cleveland that really needs some, like, good reporting at this point. Because I. I don't know what to say. Because, listen, Boston is missing their best player and they lost a ton of, like, culture setting players like Al Horford and Jrue Holiday and all these players. And yet, like, they're still able to keep it together. Philadelphia has been a mess with regards to who's available, who's not available. And, like, they are still somehow keeping it together. Like, there's not many teams that haven't struggled with, like, guys going in and out of the lineup. And that. That just can't be the excuse at this point. When you're playing Eastern Conference opponents every night you're playing Chicago, like, come on. Like that. That cannot be the excuse of guys being in and out like that. That can be everybody's excuse. I mean, if. When we go to talk about the West, I mean, the top four teams in the West, Oklahoma City, Denver, Lakers, spurs, have all dealt with guys being in and out of the lineup, and yet they all are crushing teams in comparison. And so I don't know what to do with the Cavs yet, but they certainly, if you put them in the dark horse or playing category and you're ready to kind of bury them, I wouldn't blame you, but they're certainly not contenders anymore.

[D]

Yeah, that's a. Regarding the reporting aspect of it, like, I'm. I am very curious because they don't. They're trying, but it just looks like they don't. They're not having fun. They're not.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I don't know. There's something. There is. Is it Alex Rama leaving and going to the W? Are they, like, very upset about that? I don't know.

[C]

I don't think so. I don't think so.

[A]

Or Jordan too. Like, not being there, too, is a thing.

[C]

I just think that the league has caught up to these guys. In a different way. Right? We, we saw them in the playoffs now a couple years in a row with this, this iteration of the team, they, they're, they're playing big and somehow they get out bigged. You know, I, I feel like I almost was repeating myself a lot between the two seasons, their losses in the playoffs.

[A]

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[C]

I, I just, I just don't buy that this iteration last year gangbusters regular season, obviously everything worked out great for them. They had incredible health this year. Not been as healthy, not been as overwhelming. And the scouting report has caught up to him. You know, Mobley hasn't had the Growth that we. That he needed to. For them. Like he needed to graduate and probably become their five, I think for them to. To be better. We talked a lot about all the experimentation they needed to do this year. I've been comparing it to that. That Bucks title season. We know that you're a great regular season team. You can win 50, 55 games. Cool. This is not a regular season sport. You get to the playoffs, what happens. This is, you know, now multiple years again getting kind of just punked. And this team right now is getting punked in the regular season to lose to the Bulls the way they did last night. I mean, that's embarrassing for. For a team that, like we keep saying, when are they going to figure out their identity? Who are they this year? They just can't take a punch.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, they can't. It's. It's tough, so.

[D]

And they gotta figure out their defense. I'm sorry, I just want to put that out there. That last night, like a mess, watching them go from man to zone. Zone. I'm sorry, you're not going to do zone against Josh Giddy and Kobe White. Like, and the fact that Chicago loves to put up threes. Like, they have no problem with that. It. And they couldn't rebound out of it. It was just figure it out, figure it out. And I believe in Kenny Atkinson. They got to figure out. And again, Dave, you just mentioned it is a. I feel like they're a playoff team, but we didn't even get to see that last year because they had the health issues, which is what they had all this regular season. So now I'm curious, are they.

[A]

Yeah, well, like, with. Within that, like, where's the toughness throughout the roster? Because.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, there's.

[A]

There's very. Like all teams are affected by injury.

[C]

Can they trade for Dylan Brooks? Like, would the Suns be willing to risk it? Because it does feel like that's what the Cavs need all that credit. We keep giving Dylan Brooks for. For being a culture setter. And it's, you know, just attitude shifter.

[A]

Here's the thing. If. If you're relying on Dylan Brooks to create your culture, you have no culture. Okay, let's go. Let's go to the Western Conference.

[C]

Wow, look at the shade. This is a. This is anti grizzly shade.

[A]

Somehow I think it kind of is.

[C]

Uhhuh.

[A]

It kind of is because he. He became their culture in a lot of ways.

[C]

He propped him up for sure.

[A]

The. The bottom dropped out. Okay, here are our west contenders. I will read Them. For people that are listening. The contenders OKC in Denver. The fringe contenders, the Wolves, Rockets and Clippers. Dark horse Lakers and Warriors. The play in teams, the Blazers, the Grizzlies, the Mavericks and the Spurs. And then the gas station sandwiches. We've got the Jazz, the Pelicans, Kings and Sons.

[C]

What kind of sandwich?

[D]

No, Dave, absolutely not. I'm not even. I'm not entertaining this just like a turkey sandwich.

[C]

It's. Yeah. Who's buying a s. A turkey sandwich at a gas station?

[D]

Oh, I thought you were going to try and like be like. Well, it depends on the sandwich.

[C]

Oh no, no, no, no, no. I'm just trying to figure out what kind of sandwich. Like are people getting like tuna sandwiches?

[A]

Maybe.

[D]

Maybe people gotta eat on the road.

[C]

Soggy bread.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But yeah, I just. It's bad if you're not getting in the morning. I just don't see it.

[A]

Yeah, it's bad.

[C]

Pre made sandwich with tomato on it. You know it just soaks in the, in the bread.

[D]

Transparent.

[C]

That is.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Sacramento Kings to me.

[A]

That's why it's. That's why it's bad. Um, yeah, the. So currently the bottom five teams that would be out of the play in mix. The Blazers, Mavericks, Kings, Clippers, Pelicans. The Jazz want to enter. Enter the conversation. Their team continues to win games despite their efforts. I would say Markkanen is listed as questionable. Now it's like, okay, we've got to make this. Larry, listen, anything hurting my man.

[D]

Oh, that's funny.

[A]

I would say Tommy this morning. Yeah, I would say like the teams that I would put at that spot currently, Pelicans certainly they're 5 and 22. The Kings certainly belong there. I think they have, they have the worst point differential in the, in the, the Western conference at a -11.6. Oh, I'm still putting the Jazz here. I just think that they want to end up here so badly that they're. That that's where they're going to end up. And then I would probably put the Clippers in this area, right?

[C]

Oh yeah, I am so can we talk about this by the way? Because in the. The YouTube comments shout out to the folks hanging out with us, someone says the preseason Clipper rankings let me know how much NBA content is still name over game. All right, I'm gonna push back on this. Okay. We watched the Clippers last year. We. They pushed the Nuggets to seven games. Nuggets pushed the Thunder to seven games. The, the Clippers last season, the last iteration we saw would have matched up quite well with the Oklahoma City Thunder. Very well. They had the wing defense, they had the offense. Zubot was incredible last year. Every single player on that roster, except for, I mean, James Harden's dropped off, but not to the degree as everyone else. Everybody's dropped off every addition that they've made. I mean, Bradley Beal barely has even played. Brook Lopez is washed. The Chris Paul edition wasn't even supposed to be a player. And it has turned into a huge distraction. Every move they made backfired. Every single one. John Collins has not worked out for them.

[A]

No.

[C]

Going big has not been good. Zubach has actually been up and down this season after a couple years of being incredibly consistent. It's hard for me to put the blame on him just because that team just stinks around him. But every move that they made to improve failed. Every single one. So you know to, to say that, that people went name over, over substance with the Clippers. You can say that because it's the Clippers and we watch them fail all the time. But we watched this team be pretty good last year and if they, if they had beaten the Nuggets, they, there's a good shot that they make the finals. I mean, just like the Nuggets had a good chance too. So I, I, I do want to push back. They were pretty good the last time we saw them and we didn't. Also the other thing is, coming into the season, we hadn't heard a single thing about Kawhi negative, at least health wise. Yeah, only health. Right. Everything else is pretty negative. And, and so when they started the year, right, he was playing, we were thinking, hey, they're gonna have this healthy season. And then he didn't. So, you know, I, I just think that if they had been full health and maybe not made some of these changes, it's a different, if it's a different story. But they do stink. They're bad.

[A]

Well, and, and like, I don't think that anyone could have anticipated like when you look at just two man lineups with Harden, Zubots are minus 2.4.

[C]

That's your, that's your, your entire.

[D]

And that was the difference from last year. They were music, like the way that they work. The whole story was about how they got together over the summer and they had been working out and, and I mean Zubots was wearing hardened shoes. Like the connection was there and the pick and roll was so perfect and everything. Like it's just, I don't know this.

[A]

This year or last year. What? Take a Guess as to what Zubots and Harden were last year.

[C]

Net rating plus 8.

[A]

Yeah, plus 10.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Whoa. So this is, it's a big swing. It's a 12 point swing in the wrong direction for that duo. So it's not just, hey, that. And, and part of it is like they made some bad acquisitions, but their two best players have not played very well so far this season. And a lot of it on the defensive end.

[D]

Chris Dunn's not the defender he was last year, and that's a big, that's a big factor as well.

[C]

They're old. They are incredibly old. And I think we're seeing this a little bit with the warriors too. Yeah, you know, it's hard to be old and resilient. It's just tough.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. And in the real factor, OG unnamed YouTuber says they traded away their second best player.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Losing who has been the best player for the Heat this year. Like, that's, that's the difference. Like the miscalculation on Norman Powell for them, like that, that is the difference right now. Uh, the, the fact that they thought that Beal could be a percentage of what Norm was. You know, obviously they didn't think that injury would happen, but they, they put themselves in a really bad spot right now. So. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay, let's go back to our list real quick. So we put them down there. Who, who are we putting in the play in mix? I mean, we've got Dallas. I think San Antonio slides up, certainly. I think putting Memphis here makes sense. I think, I think the warriors are.

[C]

Down there in that play in mix.

[D]

Yeah, I would say that too.

[A]

Yeah. I think maybe swapping, certainly the San Antonio, we can see where everybody lands on that. But yeah, yeah, the warriors belong in the playing mix. It's. I mean, you can speak to it probably better than any of us, you know, but it's not. Not been what the. They've expected.

[D]

Not at all. There's been. I mean, you guys saw the email coming out from Joe Lakob to a fan. Can't be more frustrated than me. And that makes me immediately think, I wonder what Stephen Curry thinks. Like, I'm sure he's also like, what is happening with the heroic performances that he's putting out and not getting the outcomes that you'd expect. There's just. With the warriors right now, there is no. One, there isn't an identity. Two, they turn the ball over way too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And three, you know, as you mentioned, Dave, like the, the age thing, you want to count on the consistency that you would expect from your older players in Stefan and Draymond and Jimmy and Al Horford. But Al Horford plays a certain amount of games because of his injuries and him getting so acclimated to this season. And he's even said and come out and said I got to be better. And, and that was supposed to be the difference maker. Remember Kavon Looney leaves Al Horford supposed to come in and with the basketball IQ that he has and also we know what he did in Boston last season. Right. It's supposed to elevate this team and you just haven't seen it. Now there's been pops for the warriors, of course, Quinton Post, we've seen the Pat Spencer games, but there still isn't enough talent consistently in that second younger group to kind of hold the fort down while the older guys maybe take a moment off, maybe take some games off or been out. I don't know if I don't even know by the time we get to March, April, like if Stephen has to keep putting up these type of games, what's going to be left in the tank? So that's where I'm, I'm very concerned about what ends up with anyways. But I the thing about that is you can never count out the warriors while he's on that team. So that's why I think it's always going to be a play in as a bottom level for them.

[C]

Man, should they send Steph to a contender. Hey, it's Adam Grant from Ted's Work Life with Adam Grant. And this message is brought to you by at&t. You know, we spend a lot of time here separating fact from claim. And when it comes to mobile networks, that distinction matters.

[A]

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[A]

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[A]

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[C]

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[D]

That'S never going to happen.

[C]

Should we, should we, should we do this? Andrew, do you want to do some Steph Curry fake trades?

[A]

No, I can't do that. That's sacrilegious.

[C]

That's why I thought you would love to do it, Andrew.

[A]

Wow, dark horses. I think that I would. The Lakers are here for me. I would also probably slide the Wolves back.

[C]

Yeah, I would slide the Wolves back. I think I'd put the Lakers in the French contenders. I, they've got.

[A]

Talk me through.

[C]

I mean listen, you've got Luca. I mean he's a top five player.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That gives you a shot. This team's offense I think is going to be, I mean it is special when, when all their guys are out there playing and we don't. I mean they've won a lot of games and, and we can split hairs about the way that they've won and, and some of the losses that they've had. I don't think they look great. But if we're gonna have a fringe contender category, I think that they're in it more than a dark horse because they do have Luca. They have LeBron still who can be effective and Austin Reeves has been really, really good this year. He's a borderline all Star. He probably is making the all star game. So I, I think I'd move them up, but the Wolves are down to me. Obviously the Clippers are, are out of that, that category. But yeah, I think I bumped the Lakers up. They've been better than I anticipated early.

[A]

Okay, let me ask you a question. Are you picking the Lakers against the Nuggets, Rockets or Thunder in a series?

[C]

No.

[A]

Then they can't be. Then they're dark.

[C]

Well, hang on now. Maybe the Rockets. I actually think that they and the Rockets are closer then, then maybe people realize this is for me.

[D]

Hold on. So wait, where are you putting Phoenix then?

[C]

Well, Phoenix is not. Yeah. Playing.

[D]

Okay, well, the Lakers have lost the Phoenix every single time.

[C]

Yeah. How many of those games were they, how many of those games do they full health. They, they've, they've sat a lot of their of, you know, Lucas missed some time. Yeah.

[A]

Phoenix hasn't had full health either.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So I'm like, I also think Phoenix is one of these teams that's going to catch a lot of teams sleeping.

[A]

Yeah. You know, we play every year and.

[D]

That'S why I, I, I struggle with the Lakers being put in that fringe contender category. Because one thing I'll give a lot of respect to the Lakers for and I give respect to any team that does this, they beat who they're supposed to beat. Right. Like you look at their last 10, they've, they went seven and three, I think in their last 10.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And the teams that they beat, Pelicans, the Jazz, the Clippers, the Mavs, like they did what they're supposed to do. And I'll throw in the bucks as well, but the sandwiches in that lost to OKC 121 to 92. Lost the Phoenix 125 to 108, lost the Boston 126 to 105. So it feels like when you're in these competitive conversations with more with teams that are also of that caliber, we're not seeing the same level of domination that they've had against the Charlottes of the world or the Kings of the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I can't put them in fringe contender. When you've got. You beat the Spurs. Yes. But by two. You beat the Raptors by three.

[C]

Are we down to one French contender? I mean, it's just the Rockets pretty much.

[A]

I mean, let's, let's take a.

[D]

Hold on, let's look at it. Let's look at it.

[C]

We don't feel like the spurs are there.

[A]

I would put the spurs and Rockets in the French contender list.

[C]

But not the Lakers.

[A]

Not the Lakers. I don't trust their defense.

[C]

Oh. I mean, I'm not saying I trust them to win. I just think that.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, would it be crazy if the spurs wound up in the conference finals? No, like, I don't think that'd be crazy.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Would it be crazy Lakers wound up there? I mean, Luca has dragged.

[D]

That's true.

[C]

Teams with less talent, yes.

[A]

But better defensive teams though, Dave.

[C]

Sure. And that's true. That is true.

[A]

Much better defensive teams. The Lakers have this stretch in their season that has propped them up quite a bit. They played New Orleans, Milwaukee, Utah. Utah, Clippers, Dallas, New Orleans.

[D]

That's the stretch I'm talking about.

[A]

That seven game stretch is propping them up pretty significantly. And they're still what. And again, like point differential I think really matters. And their point differential is one.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And so, okay, you're giving all the stats to prove my point. So. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you so much. Like that. That's. They. They have these large gaps against really competitive teams, but this, I mean, excuse me, against non competitive teams. But then the second they get into competitive matchups, it's like. Yeah, debatable. Like it gets close.

[A]

They have the names, certainly, and they have the offensive talent. I just, if you were just to say this, do you think a team with Deandre Ayton as the center in 2025 is a contender? I don't care. I don't care. I mean, yeah, they, they were good. He was at one point he was really good. When he was in Phoenix, he was really good until he wasn't. But I just don't trust a team that has him at the center position. If he somehow became Jared Allen.

[C]

Right. I have.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

I will say I have looked at this entire season with that in mind. And I'm not saying that this is my argument for them being fridge contenders, but one of the things that I continue to think about is if they can upgrade in the middle, it really helps them quite. I mean, obviously it helps them, but. And you know, Gafford might be available. Goga might be available. You know, there, there are guys that, that they can go after. I think that they can upgrade, but. All right, I'll look. They're dark horse. I, I will acquiesce to you guys. I just. It's. It's crazy to put a team with, with that much higher.

[D]

You don't have to accurate. You don't have to.

[C]

No, no, no, no, no.

[B]

I.

[C]

Look, you guys, you make a good point. They. The defense stinks.

[A]

It's bad.

[C]

I just would not want to play against Luka Doncic come playoff time. I just think that gives you a shot. Yeah, the team is good enough around him. Like offensively.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

The defense is just bad.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they're. They're not good enough defensively.

[D]

Who would your. Like what I just said about Stephen Curry where like you just can't count them out if Stephen Curry's on the team. And I'm curious, particularly Dave, because I know you feel like that about Steph as well.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But who would be anyone else in the league, really, if you have this player, you cannot count them out.

[A]

No.

[D]

Jokic.

[C]

Well, yeah, yeah. Jokic, Shay, Steph.

[D]

I say Luca, you say Luca. Yeah, that makes sense. That. Yeah. Okay, I figured.

[C]

And it might. I mean like, Wemby might be one of these guys already. We don't know.

[D]

You know, I think he's still developing to that, but.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, next year. Next year. Yes, he's that guy. I'm just calling it now.

[A]

Well, and what the playoffs taught us last year is that depth really matters.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the teams that got there with like good defensive depth are the ones that were standing there at the end. Like the Indiana had really good depth. That really two way players, you know, like, that's what you need. And the Lakers don't have enough of those guys, period.

[C]

Yeah, they just don't. That Bronnie James roster spot needs to just become a player.

[A]

There's a. There's a lot of roster spots for the Lakers that need to become a player. Like, let's, let's be real, you know, I. I just don't. I don't. I don't know. Like, Jackson Hayes is doing enough for them. Dalton Connect is not a guy that's, that's giving you.

[D]

They just assigned him to the G.

[A]

I know Marcus Smart. While you know, he's not making a lot of money. Like, that's another one. Like they have Nick Smith Jr. On the team. Like, I don't. I don't know. Like, Jared Vanderbilt's a really good defensive player, but offensively you can completely take him out of the game once. Come playoff time, everybody's zeroed in. Like, hey, Jared Vanderbilt, you don't exist anymore, okay? And like, if you have those guys on your team, it is really tough. DeAndre Aiden's another one. I mean, the Thunder played Ayton earlier this season. He'd Been having a really good stretch. He comes into okc, the Thunder just neutralize him. I mean, you can't have that many guys that can be neutralized. That's the problem. It's not Luca, it's not LeBron, it's not Austin Reeves. Those guys are great. It's just who, who's the next guy up that you're counting on? Maybe Rui Hachimora is the guy who's had the best season, you know, for them next, and he's had a great season. But then who after that do you.

[D]

Think they've got, they've got too many guys that on any given night can really entertain us. Right. Like Jake Laravia can pop, Dalton connect, can pop. They can put on shows for us. But it's not something that it's like, oh, I'm putting my money in that you'll be able to come in and either one. Keep the continuity of success in a second unit and a third unit or two at least. If you can't even produce offensively, give us something defensively. Yeah, that's, that's the problem with the Lakers right now. I think they're supporting cast is too much of a novelty as opposed to a consistency.

[A]

Yeah, agreed. And then I, I think OKC and Denver, I think we had it right for the contenders. I think those are like the two true contenders. It would be a little surprising if anybody but those two represented the west in the finals. You know, you could, you could definitely see both the, either one of those teams making the finals. But even Houston at this point would be a little bit surprising if that's the team representing the Western Conference. So I think we had that right there. So I think like we would be.

[D]

Impressed with the Rockets if they made it.

[A]

Like I'd be, I'd be shocked if they offensively get it together enough because it's just, it's. It's just so different in the playoffs from the regular season. Yeah, it is really, really tough. So really the only misses were like Clippers were a big miss, but that was everybody that missed on them. I think San Antonio is better than a play in team. And then I think really like the warriors as well, just not, not being who we had hoped is another one, but. And then Phoenix, Phoenix has been like a good, a surprise in a good way.

[D]

There's all the teams in the West. The acquisitions that Phoenix made and the, the development they had over the summer I think is the one that we very much underestimated.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, without a doubt. All Right. We will be back with another episode of the NBA Daily tomorrow. I believe Fred Katz will be our guest.

[C]

Let's hope.

[A]

Which will be super fun. Yeah, Confirmed.

[D]

Always.

[C]

Oh, confirmed. All right. We got Fred Katz for tomorrow, guys.

[A]

Fred Cats for tomorrow, which will be really fun. We got slam and jam. It's jazz week.

[C]

We got to talk about the Cavs tomorrow with Fred. I. I gotta. I gotta know what is wrong with them and what is going on. Yeah, they're gonna make trades. They have to. This is. This is actually the season that it's time to make a change.

[A]

Yeah, it does feel like that. It certainly.

[C]

What do they say about doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting the same result? Yeah.

[D]

Insanity.

[A]

Yeah. It's not good. All right.

[C]

Cab Sanity.

[A]

Cab Sanity. In the. In a bad way. Hope everybody's doing great. Hope you guys are enjoying the holiday season. And we will talk to you guys again tomorrow.

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