Who is taking a leap next season?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic NBA Daily – "Who is Taking a Leap Next Season?"

Release Date: July 7, 2025

Hosts:

• Dave DeFore
• Esper Henny
• Xena Keita

---

1. Major Trades and Team Dynamics

Utah Jazz Three-Team Trade

The episode kicks off with a significant discussion about a recent three-team trade involving the Utah Jazz, LA Clippers, and Miami Heat. The trade sends Power Forward John Collins to the Clippers, Shooting Guard Norman Powell to Miami, and Power Forwards Kyle Anderson and Kevin Love to Utah. Additionally, the Jazz receive a Clippers' 2027 second-round pick.

Clippers' Strategic Shift

Xena Keita raises concerns about the Clippers' decision to trade away their best player, Norman Powell, who was contributing 25 points per game. She questions whether the Clippers are prioritizing financial flexibility over on-court performance:

"This is about Norm. I think Norm is a really good scorer... Losing a guy like that is huge. And you know, it's all about money."
[05:35] – Xena Keita

Esper Henny adds that while Powell was a strong scorer, his defensive shortcomings are now more evident, especially in Miami's lineup alongside Tyler Herro:

"Norm is a really good scorer. He’s got some defensive issues that are now going to be very apparent in Miami."
[06:15] – Esper Henny

Clippers' Future Prospects

The hosts debate whether the Clippers can still contend in the Western Conference after the trade. Dave DeFore suggests that without Powell's scoring depth, the Clippers might struggle to maintain their standings:

"I personally think the Clippers take a step back here. I think they get worse in the trade."
[06:30] – Dave DeFore

Esper counters by emphasizing the potential benefits of acquiring John Collins, such as added size, rebounding, and rim protection:

"All the elite teams have two bigs at any time. John Collins can play with both Zubac and Brook Lopez if he becomes their fifth starter."
[07:00] – Esper Henny

---

2. Utah Jazz's Tanking Strategy

Signs of Continued Tanking

The discussion shifts to the Utah Jazz, with the hosts analyzing whether the team is genuinely avoiding tanking or if recent moves signal an ongoing strategy to rebuild:

"Since Austin Age said we are no longer tanking... The moves they've made suggest they are still tanking."
[13:35] – Esper Henny

Xena Keita points out several actions by the Jazz that contradict their claim of not tanking, including trading Colin Sexton for Yusuf Nurkic and buying out Jordan Clarkson:

"They traded Colin Sexton for Yusuf Nurkic... It's code for we're not going to tank. It's code for we are going to suck."
[13:10] – Xena Keita

Esper Henny concurs, stating that the Jazz are likely in a "bad development season," which ultimately translates to continued tanking:

"This is about being a bad development season."
[13:44] – Esper Henny

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3. Summer League Insights

Pre-Summer League Tournaments

Moving into the summer league segment, the hosts discuss the emergence of pre-summer league tournaments like the California Classic and Salt Lake City Classic. Xena Keita advocates for more localized summer leagues, highlighting their benefits in providing playing opportunities and exposure for undrafted and undermanaged players:

"This gives an opportunity for different roster guys that are trying to make teams... It makes sense to me. I like it."
[26:54] – Xena Keita

Player Performances and Potential

The hosts analyze standout performances from summer league participants, notably Vijay Edem and Amen Thompson. Dave DeFore praises Edem's dynamic offensive play:

"He was able to come from a bunch of different spaces. I like that."
[36:31] – Xena Keita

Esper Henny discusses the importance of physical readiness and skill adaptability, emphasizing how summer league serves as a testing ground for both rookies and second-year players:

"For first-year players, it's about physical shape and how they handle themselves around coaches and the media."
[32:43] – Esper Henny

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4. Players Poised to Make Significant Leaps

Amen Thompson – Houston Rockets

Esper Henny identifies Amen Thompson as a top candidate poised for a breakout season with the Rockets, especially with the addition of Kevin Durant enhancing the team's offensive capabilities:

"Amen Thompson is the number one guy on my list for next season to take a jump."
[41:12] – Esper Henny

Andrew Nemhard – Indiana Pacers

Andrew Nemhard is highlighted for his potential to elevate his game in the absence of Tyrese Halliburton, assuming increased playmaking responsibilities:

"Andrew Nemhard can be a great lead ball handler and has the opportunity to take on a larger offensive role."
[43:45] – Xena Keita

Deandre Ayton – LA Clippers

Deandre Ayton is discussed as another player who could significantly improve, contingent on adapting to the Clippers' system and maintaining focus amidst the team's star-studded environment:

"Deandre Ayton has the opportunity to show he can excel if placed in the right structure."
[46:27] – Dave DeFore

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5. Teams Likely to Experience Significant Improvements

Atlanta Hawks

The Atlanta Hawks are forecasted to make a considerable leap, bolstered by strong performances in the summer and the return of key players like Jalen Johnson:

"The Atlanta Hawks feel like they might have an Eastern Conference Finals run next year if everything breaks right."
[49:02] – Esper Henny

Xena Keita emphasizes the importance of Cristaps Porzingis's health for the Hawks' success:

"Porzingis's health is crucial as he completes the Hawks' puzzle with his rim protection and shooting."
[49:33] – Xena Keita

Orlando Magic

Dave DeFore predicts a leap for the Orlando Magic, citing their improved chemistry and strategic acquisitions under coach Jamal Mosley:

"I think the Orlando Magic are going to make a leap this year... with Jamal Mosley at the helm, anything is possible."
[55:05] – Dave DeFore

San Antonio Spurs

The San Antonio Spurs are also mentioned as a team on the rise, thanks to the development of players like Devin Bissell and the integration of new talent such as Connor Bryant and Dylan Harper:

"San Antonio is my true leap team; players are gelling well, and the new additions promise a strong season."
[52:29] – Dave DeFore

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6. Closing Remarks and Team Rankings

In the concluding segments, the hosts engage in a playful ranking of Eastern Conference teams against the Toronto Raptors, debating the potential of teams like the Chicago Bulls, Miami Heat, and Brooklyn Nets. They emphasize the unpredictability of team performances and the impact of upcoming seasons:

"Boston, Indiana... The Sixers are not going to be a 24-win team. They have to be."
[59:25] – Esper Henny

"The Miami Heat are about similar to the Raptors. We just started this whole show with Norm Powell being phenom."
[58:50] – Dave DeFore

Dave DeFore wraps up by reiterating the excitement around potential team improvements and the dynamic nature of the NBA season.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Xena Keita [05:35]: "This is about Norm. I think Norm is a really good scorer... Losing a guy like that is huge. And you know, it's all about money."

• Esper Henny [13:35]: "This is about being a bad development season."

• Esper Henny [41:12]: "Amen Thompson is the number one guy on my list for next season to take a jump."

• Dave DeFore [46:27]: "Deandre Ayton has the opportunity to show he can excel if placed in the right structure."

---

Conclusion:

In this episode of The Athletic NBA Daily, the hosts delve deep into the ramifications of major trades, evaluate promising player performances in the summer leagues, and speculate on which players and teams are poised for significant improvements in the upcoming NBA season. Through insightful analysis and engaging discussions, Dave DeFore, Esper Henny, and Xena Keita provide listeners with a comprehensive overview of the current NBA landscape, highlighting the dynamic shifts and potential breakout stars that could shape the future of professional basketball.

Transcript

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[Dave DeFore]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily for July 7th. We are here talking about summer league action. Already? Yes, it's here. Dave DeFore, Esper, Henny, Xena Kada. I am really. I feel like we didn't get a break, guys.

[Esper Henny]

No, we didn't.

[Xena Kada]

Oh God, no we didn't.

[Esper Henny]

We had a game seven. We had a game seven and a draft within three days of each other.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Xena Kada]

And then free agency two days after that and then. Yeah, it's, it's been constant.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

And speaking of free agency, even before we get into summer league, this is what we have to start the morning with. The Utah Jazz. You know, they might have taken a page out of Dallas's book. Dallas trades away their best player. They get the number one draft pick. This could be the new form of tanking Utah Jazz. LA Clippers in Miami Heat agreed to a three team trade that sends power forward John Collins to la, shooting guard Norman Powell to Miami and power forwards Kyle Anderson and Kevin Love to Utah. The Jazz also get a Clippers 2027 second round pick.

[Xena Kada]

Oh, thank God.

[Dave DeFore]

We needed that. Right? Okay, let's, let's start here. Shout out to la. In the midst of this, they get John Collins, a formidable, formidable, excuse me, power forward. Add some size to their roster. But I think the question now here is the Clippers. We're looking at the Clippers. We just talked about this last show and Dave, I'm going to turn to you because I think you put this out there and I really agree with this concept and you did too. Clippers should run it back how they did it last year. Kind of sit Kawhi a little bit, let him heal and allow them to get them into playoff position. Let Kawhi come in and cook in the second half of the season, rolling into the playoffs. Now, the only reason they could do that is because Norman Powell was a nice puzzle piece that fit in there. But now, Dave, what are you looking at the Clippers and how they're going to be able to fill in that scoring depth that they have with Norman?

[Esper Henny]

There's a lot of people that feel like Norm Powell could have been an all star last year. Right. I mean he was a borderline all star candidate last year. And to make a trade like this, it a, it's a sign to me that they don't want to extend Norm Powell, not that they want to get bigger and get John Collins out there. Right. Like this is about Norm. I mean, I think Norm is a really good scorer. He, he's got some defensive issues that I think are now going to be very apparent in Miami if he's playing next to Tyler Hero especially. But the Clippers in my opinion are going to miss him. I mean this guy's putting up 25 a game. I mean he can give you 40 to, to lose a guy like that is huge. And you know, it's all about money. Shout out to the, to the YouTube chat. It's money in the second apron. That's 100% correct. It's also a lot about that 2026 free agency class 2027. Like these guys are that are starting to come up. Remember Luca Donage still hasn't signed an extension. The Clippers are a team that see themselves as a premier free agent destination. Like they, they still think that they can get free agents. They don't want to lock up that long term money in, in non superstars. I mean, I understand it. That being said, if you look around the league and let's, let's make the case for John Collins, right? If you look around the league, all the elite teams have two bigs at any time. And I don't think Zubac and Brook Lopez can play together, but I do think John Collins can play with both of those guys if he's your fifth starter, which is basically what he's going to be if he winds up in the starting lineup for them, which I think is going to be game by game. Derrick Jones Jr. Is going to play a lot of four for them. But if you look around the league. This adds a lot of size, a lot of rebounding, some more rim protection. And if John Collins can credibly space the floor, which I, you know, he can, this is, this is a move that's more in line with what we see around, around the league now. Personally, I think the Clippers take a step back here. I think they get worse in the trade. Like they, they trade away the best player in the entire trade. But you can, you know, you can make an argument, okay, well, if you're gonna make a move, at least this sort of puts you in a better position to, to compete, you know, once you get to the playoffs, you know.

[Xena Kada]

But I don't know a lot of people, and rightfully so, a lot of people in the chat are mentioning Bradley Beal is an option for the Clippers. You know, he's nearing a buyout with the Phoenix Suns. It's sort of similar to the Damian Lillard situation where it would be a wave and stretch, which is a disaster. Yeah, a terrible situation for the Suns. Like you, if you go back and look at what they traded for Bradley Beal, what they traded for Kevin Durant and what they got in return for both of those players, it's devastating to think of the next 10 years of Suns basketball. That being said, like wave and stretch. Now the Clippers have access to a little bit of money to offer a guy like Bradley Beal. I can see a world where he fits into that Norm Powell role for them. Makes sense if that's the solution that they're going with. But guys, I love this for Miami. I really think Norm Powell, what Miami lacked offensively last year was another guy next to Tyler Herro. That could take some usage, get some shots going, especially in the second half of the season. They leaned on Andrew Wiggins as a guy who was like, hey, we need something, can you please go create for us? Right. I think Wigs is more, I mean, Xena, you know this. He's more of like a tertiary guy, can take advantage of like secondary actions, attack closeouts. Like be a guy who can knock down the wide Open spot up 3. If you're asking him to create his own shot consistently, you're. You're asking him probably to do too much at this point in his career. But Norm, very good three point shooter, a guy who can consistently work in transition. I think him and Hero offensively make sense. Now. The defensive concerns are valid because you now have Hero. Rozier maybe gets playing time there, which is tough in general, and Norm Powell not good defensively. But you have Davion Mitchell, you have Andrew Wiggins, you have Bam Adebayo. There is an infrastructure there for them to be a little bit more successful defensively. I actually think it kind of makes sense for Miami to do this also. The Clippers clearly didn't want to extend Norm, and Miami is one of those teams where they will be willing to pay him that money if he's. If he's good enough. And I don't know, like, can Norm Powell, if he had the same year as he did with the Clippers last year, be an All Star in the Eastern Conference?

[Esper Henny]

Maybe the East? For sure.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

So I think you're making great points, especially with the, you know, the Miami Heat and Norm Pal and I look, it's so funny. It's kind of like there's like a Goldilocks version of buckets, walking buckets in Miami now. Like, I look at Alec Burks, I look at Andrew Wiggins, and I look at Norman Powell, and it's like Norm Powell is like the. The too hot. Like, he's gonna go off, and he can get his own buckets. I think Andrew Wiggins is kind of like, in that middle range, and Alec Burks is just. It's cooled off a little bit, but they're just. There's people that can some buckets, but you need that too hot that immediately. I can count on that. And so that's a really great position for Norm Pal to be in. We knew that. I mean, I don't think anyone knew how good of a filler he'd be for Paul George leaving.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

The Clippers addition by subtraction. He said it, right.

[Dave DeFore]

I mean, he was. He was such a. I don't even want to call it a surprise, but he was a. I don't know. He was just delightfully placed and perfectly timed as well. So I'm now looking, though. I'm looking at the Clippers, and I'm like, I. Do you think what we just talked about the other day of, like, could they still be in that a contender or dark horse position with this change that they've made? We know that Zubots was playing significant minutes, and now you've got Brook Lopez in the mix. Brook Lopez can step outside, and guess what? When he steps outside, John Collins can cook inside. If they're paired up together, what do we think about, you know, how much of this really changes where they're at?

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, I mean, he's on. He's an expiring.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

John Collins is an expiring. Contract who can eat some minutes for them. And. And honestly, like Ty Lou's a creative coach. I think like we'll probably see a little bit of small ball it can roll with. Yeah, yeah. Him and Harden would. Would actually. That'd be pretty good. But if he can get them to the playoffs, I don't think like his role would decrease as the playoffs went on, in my opinion.

[Dave DeFore]

Right. Sure. And I'm not just meaning John Collins, but I'm also the com. Adding John Collins and Norman Po Le. How. How big of a deficit is that? How much does it hit them in terms of where they now stand in the West?

[Esper Henny]

It could. It depends on Kawhi now. Right. Like this is about see Norm Pal to me as that innings eater at he can give you 25 a night for four months while Kawhi is kind of like rounding into shape and then Kawhi takes over. I mean we saw even Norm's role kind of decreased a little bit as Kawhi took on more and more stuff. So you know, I think that this just. It hurts you with the Kawhi stuff. That being said, you know, Bradley Beal, if. If he gets bought out and he winds up on the Clippers, that's a guy who's going to help him. I mean, I don't know if Beal is an upgrade over Norm Powell personally, because I just do. I. I do really like, well, Norm is what better what Norm was able to do last year. Yeah, I. Honestly guys, I. I'm stuck on the. The Jazz part of this because they told us they weren't tanking.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

They didn't say they were going to not suck though.

[Esper Henny]

The evidence suggests to me that the tank is still going on. Yeah. This is.

[Xena Kada]

Okay. You want me to lay it out here, Please.

[Dave DeFore]

Lay out where. Where what is going through the minds of the Utah Jazz.

[Xena Kada]

So the Utah Jazz since Austin age said we are no longer tanking. They traded Colin Sexton for Yusuf Nurkic. Okay. They bought out Jordan Clarkson. They drafted Ace bailey, Walter Clayton Jr. And they traded just now John Collins for Kyle Anderson, Kevin Love and a second round pick.

[Esper Henny]

That is not.

[Xena Kada]

That's code for we're not going to tank. It's code for we are going to suck. We are going to be forced into.

[Esper Henny]

Being bad development season.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

Yes, absolutely.

[Esper Henny]

To me massage that. Exactly.

[Xena Kada]

Instead of it being like, hey, we are going to have to rest Lowry Markkanen for multiple games to end the year. It's gonna be no. Larry Markin is going to be playing 30 minutes a night. But we will be down 20 in most of these games because of the way that this roster is constructed. Maybe, maybe some of their young guys get opportunities, though. That's the, that's the other side of this, right?

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, go ahead.

[Esper Henny]

Did you guys watch, you guys watch summer league or did you see the highlights at all?

[Dave DeFore]

We're fine.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, and there. And Ace was on a menace restriction as well, so there's that. But before we get into that real quick though, I want to ask, as. I'll ask you.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

If you are Larry Markkanen, what is going through your head?

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, I'm pretty, I'm pretty bummed about this situation if I'm him. I mean, obviously he got his money and that's, that's the main thing here. He got the bag that he wanted. He's 28.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh, is that the main thing? I thought the main thing was a championship. What are we doing?

[Xena Kada]

Financial security is also very important amongst.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, look, I'm fully smiling, so go ahead.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, no, I know, I know. Look, he probably is a guy they end up trading. I, I don't know if last season, because he had a down year compared to the year before he got paid. I'm not sure if that was the type of year where you can sell a team on trading and using assets to go out and get a Lowry market. And especially because of the new contract that he has, like you're getting paid. I believe it's like 40 plus million dollars a year. I don't have the contract in front of me, but like it's, it's a healthy bit of salary moving forward. So what team is going to convince themselves to do that? Who?

[Esper Henny]

The teams that were in on Lowry. That's the thing. The teams that were in on Lowry marketing a year and a half ago, they've moved on. They've done other things. Yeah, Warriors.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, exactly.

[Esper Henny]

Warriors did Jimmy Butler. Right. Like, you're getting to the point and it's, it's Lowry. Markin is 28 years old. This is the, the prime of his career. His value is never going to go up. And this again, what are the Jazz doing? Every single move that they've made, in my opinion, they've gotten lower value than they should have. And part of that is hanging on to things too long. Like you hang on to Colin Sexton too long to the point where the league is just totally turned off of guards. Exactly. Like they defend. Right.

[Xena Kada]

They could have probably gotten stuff for Sexton.

[Esper Henny]

Well, this is like the stock Market. Right. Like in, in a lot of ways it's gambling. I, I gotta, I gotta strike while the iron's hot. But what if I hold on? What if the value goes up and then it doesn't and now all of a sudden you're stuck with Lowry Markin and in a, in a world where it's hard to move him, I mean, you gotta hope the Phoenix Suns stay dumb. I don't think the Pelicans are going to be interested in Lowry marketing. Maybe the Kings would be interested. Maybe you can fool them.

[Xena Kada]

And that actually kind of makes sense. It does make sense, actually.

[Esper Henny]

Make that call. But, but you know, like you just, at this point you have to move Lowry Marketing, I guess because he's too good to be on a team this bad.

[Xena Kada]

But maybe, maybe clear to me your.

[Esper Henny]

Goal is to be bad.

[Xena Kada]

I don't know. Also the, the other thing is that I don't know how much you guys believe in like the two timeline conversations. Zena, I know for warriors talk, everybo loves to bring up the two timeline stuff. But like I know marketing is 28 throughout. His contract, will be 29, 30, 31, making 46, 49, $53 million a year. Whoever you tank to get next year is going to be a 21 year old kid. Ace Bailey is a 21 year old or 20 year old kid. Walter Clayton, obviously an older guy, college wise, but still like a young guy. And you, that feels conflicting in terms of what you're building for moving forward with Ace and the rest of the crew versus marketing, who just feels like a guy you eventually flip for. Whatever. And do you hold out on that too long? Does it become a Clarkson and Sexton situation where nobody wants to trade for marketing? I don't know.

[Dave DeFore]

I think what's interesting about this, no matter what, in terms of like striking while the iron's hot, as Dave is mentioning, is that the iron I feel like is always going to be hot. From the perspective of people being too expensive with this whole apron situation. Right. At all times, regardless if you're waiting for potential to be there or not, things are just going to get more and more expensive. And so when the iron's hot is just going to be dependent on who has cap space.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, you got to capitalize on that.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, right. I'm making those calls.

[Esper Henny]

That's why the Suns, I think, need to be very careful before they wave and stretch Bradley Beal because they just signed Devin Booker to this contract extension that's going to tie up like half of your salary cap. In two players, one of whom is not on the roster. And not to say that that Booker isn't worth the money. Yeah. But to have that dead money on your cat for a team that wants to be competitive. I mean, again, it's handcuffing yourself for five seasons for a starter that is just. It's bad money. Now the Bucks are in a different situation because of Giannis's age and the fact that he could force himself out and they had to do something. But, you know, for. And I still think it was a bad idea for them, but for the Suns, absolute disaster if they do this. But I. I don't know, Utah. It's just such a confusing situation.

[Xena Kada]

Can I put on my tinfoil hat real quick?

[Esper Henny]

Well, I was about to. I was gonna. Positive question to you guys real quick. Last year, we saw the Minnesota Timberwolves make a. A deal that was financially, you know, motivated. Right. Right before the season started. What if Lowry Market is one of these guys? One of these teams is looking to maybe make a move, and it's right before training camp that we get a marketing deal. And I'm not saying that we are going to get one or one is imminent, but I think he's a player that, if you're a team trying to win right now, especially in the east, that's a guy that you should be trying to get.

[Xena Kada]

RJ Barrett and Emmanuel Quickley for Lowry Marketing. Yeah, I don't know, man. I'm just throwing stuff out there.

[Esper Henny]

But.

[Xena Kada]

Okay, let me put my tinfoil hat on. I agree with you, by the way, that, like, if you're a team in the Eastern Conference, Miami just traded for Norm Powell. Like that type of team that can sell themselves on, hey, we're seven to eight. You know, even Atlanta. Atlanta has a little bit of goods to be out and go out and get someone and think of the idea of, like, him and Porzingis together. Yeah, that could work. Where Maybe Boston. Boston's taking this gap year and they're like, hey, we can. We can wait out a year of marketing's contract. And then by the time Tatum comes back, that's a pretty intriguing group.

[Esper Henny]

Right.

[Xena Kada]

Detroit makes a lot of sense. Phoenix plays. He just mentioned the same thing. The Pistons obviously need that stretch five, stretch, four shooter type kind of makes sense. That's an interesting pick for marketing, but I'll put my tinfoil hat on real quick because I think Xena, you mentioned the tanking for Utah. Okay. AJ DeBonsa, one of the top draft picks next year, is going to be why you okay byu BYU owned or like funded by the Utah Jazz owner?

[Esper Henny]

Correct.

[Xena Kada]

If I'm putting my hat on right now, we are gonna get another Cooper flag type of situation where we're like the Utah Jazz have ended up with the first overall pick and they get.

[Dave DeFore]

Are you circling back to how I open up this show? I'd have followed the blueprint.

[Esper Henny]

AJ DeBonsa and Team USA just won the U19 World cup, so yeah, yep.

[Xena Kada]

Almost Canada almost beat those guys. Just want to put it out there. Almost is not good enough.

[Esper Henny]

Almost doesn't count. You know there was a song.

[Dave DeFore]

Yep, almost doesn't count. Brandy says it she's actually going on tour for anyone that loves that anyways, I will be finding a ticket somewhere.

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[Dave DeFore]

All right, let's keep talking about, you know, the two timelines because that second timeline is developing right now. Summer league or at least pre summer league is going on right now. There's a California Classic going on at Chase center where the warriors play and then Salt Lake City Classic and where, you know, Utah plays. But I want to ask, first and foremost, before we even dive in to these games, what do y' all think about these pre summer league tourneys? What do you do? Do we think it's necessary? Do we like it? Do we like the kind of pocketed opportunities to see folks before they get into all the melee of Las Vegas?

[Xena Kada]

They're used to be more. There used to be.

[Esper Henny]

There was Orlando. Right.

[Xena Kada]

There was Boston.

[Dave DeFore]

Orlando. Right, Exactly. Y.

[Xena Kada]

So I. I actually think there should be more of those more localized summer leagues because one, it gives opportunity to different roster guys that are trying to make teams, and two, most teams actually end up sending out two different rosters. So there's going to be the team that goes to summer league in Vegas. There's also going to be the team that plays in Utah. San Antonio did that last year. The Raptors did that with. I forgot his name. Damn. But he's like, oh, Drew, Timmy. Drew, Timmy. He played for the Minnesota, ended up playing for the Raptors in Vegas. So, like, this gives an opportunity for guys to kind of double dip, showcase different things for different teams. It makes sense to me. I like it. I wish we had more, to be honest with you.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, it's a good thing. It's a development thing. And also it's another chance for these guys to have scouts see them. So even if they're not signed to, let's say, an NBA two way or a G League deal, there are scouts from all over the world.

[Xena Kada]

Yes.

[Esper Henny]

At these summer league games, even the California Classic. And there are job opportunities around, around the world. And so the more eyes they can get on them, more minutes on the court, the better. We need these guys to take the right mindset, though. Like Ace Bailey went out there getting shots up, like just firing away VJ Edgecombe the other night. Right. Hey, he didn't.

[Xena Kada]

I don't.

[Esper Henny]

I can't remember one pass. He threw 25 shots. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, that's the way to get.

[Dave DeFore]

I do like the history of the summer league and that's why I kind of asked you guys that question. I'm happy you brought up, like, there used to be the Orlando Pro summer league back in 2002. The oldest one is actually the Salt Lake City Summer League. It was before the Utah Jazz, and they hosted a tournament called the Rocky Mountain review. Started in 1984, as I mentioned. And then they reshuffled it kind of in 2009 and it became the Utah. The Salt Lake City. Cool. So that was interesting.

[Esper Henny]

Summer league actually started in Long Beach. I don't know if you guys knew that. Really?

[Dave DeFore]

No, I did not know that.

[Xena Kada]

I did not.

[Esper Henny]

A little summer league history for you guys.

[Xena Kada]

Interesting.

[Dave DeFore]

There you go. And then they started their inaugural season in Vegas in 2004. So they've been running that Las Vegas one at UNLV since then. And then this California Classic just started in 2018. So these are there. I feel like this is always going to be shifting. I love this, what you're mentioning, Dave. Just like more scouts, more eyeballs, more opportunities to make teams for players. But now looking at the ones that have already happened. You mentioned Vijay Edgecombe. I think there's a lot of, a lot of interesting ways to evaluate summer league performances.

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[Dave DeFore]

Because you know that first one, Dave, especially with Vijay EDSCOM, 28 points. I mean, he stacked, stacked the stat sheet. Oh, say that three times fast. But I'm looking at the Summer League MVPs for the last 10 years.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, man.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, you got a name? I don't know. I'm wondering if you guys can. I can give you guys hints. I don't know if you can. If you guys remember any of these from 2024 to 2014.

[Xena Kada]

Wow, that's tough.

[Dave DeFore]

But of that, of that, only 1, 2, 3 had starting roles on their teams last year.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, right, exactly. And so I'm just like wondering, I want to ask you guys as like, how do you look at these players and how much emphasis do you put on summer league and their performances? What do you look for in these?

[Xena Kada]

Generally no emphasis whatsoever. But if it's like a second or a third year guy and they actively struggle in summer league, that presents more of a interesting thing. There's also certain types of players that thrive at summer league compared to other players that just don't. Like, if you're a ball dominant guard. Yeah, if you're a ball dominant guard, a guy who's like leading your team, you know, setting up the table for everybody, you're gonna look good in summer league. Like just point blank, period. Like you're going to be able to run the show and it'll look good for the most part. I think guys to work off ball, you know, catch and shoot guys. Guys who need actions kind of created for them, honestly. Kind of like an Ace Bailey. Sometimes they tend to struggle because you're not getting the ball consistently. Like last year. I'll give You a Raptors example, Ochai Abaji, who's a. Who was going into his third year, struggled immensely in summer league, was just did not look like an NBA player truthfully, and then comes into the Raptors, has his best season. So it doesn't really correlate all the time, but there are moments in times where you could be like, okay, this guy has this one tangible skill set. Like his finishing at the rim look good or the defensive plays look good, or, you know, he. His shooting looks better than it did in the draft process. That's the type of stuff you look for in summer league.

[Esper Henny]

For me, first year player in summer league, it's more about physical. Second year player, it's more about how you play second year when you come back.

[Dave DeFore]

Like I remember, yeah, first year finesse in that second year. How much of you. Yeah, I like that, Dave.

[Esper Henny]

Desmond Bain came back his second year, they put him on the ball. Like, we didn't see him on the ball as a rookie very much, although he did a lot of it at tcu, comes back second year, and he's basically the point guard of summer league. He plays two games, he looks amazing. He's out of there. That's what you want.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

First year guy, are you in shape? You know, and by the way, relative shape, because these guys, a lot of them just finished their season a couple months ago. They don't have training camp until, you know, September. I'm not expecting them to be out there in peak physical condition, but, you know, you don't want to see a guy who just finished college looking a little fat. Right. How's he running? Okay. Was he. Is he. Was he injured? Right. Like, how's he look? Jumping, you know? No, he's right, though.

[Xena Kada]

Why?

[Dave DeFore]

The way you said that was so funny.

[Esper Henny]

Sorry. Talking like we're in the gym. You know what I mean? I don't usually use the F word on a podcast and so. But that kind of stuff is what matters for rookies, you know, and also, like, this is their first foray into professional basketball. And so a lot of this, I think, like, and I'm saying from a scouting perspective is you're watching how these guys are around, you know, the media, how are they around the coaches, how are they around the arena? Like, there's a lot of stuff that goes into that. But yeah, for. For me, like, as an analyst here, all I'm looking for from these rookie guys, I want to see what do you. What pops for me. Are you fast? Can you jump? Are you a good Passer, you know, those sorts of things. Second year guys, that's. Those are the guys where I'm hammering them. Like we're gonna be talking about them. Like, you know, like we would.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah. Like, why are they not. Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Under your belt. You should be really good by that.

[Xena Kada]

I remember last year, just one thing. I remember last year, like two years before it was the Rockets and Jabari Smith Jr. Amen Thompson, like, they looked incredible. And you're like, whoa, this Rock team is going to take a step. And it kind of translated to what it looked like moving forward. Jabari Smith Jr. Didn't take some crazy offensive leap like it looked like he would in summer league, but Amen Thompson, all right, you can see the stardom there. You were like, clearly this guy is a wildly good NBA player or he will be eventually. So there's stuff that you can take away from maybe what the team is building. Like if a roster looks really good or a couple of guys look really good together, then you say, all right, they're building towards something, even if it's not going to come to fruition immediately.

[Dave DeFore]

You know, I think that is absolutely true for the Rockets. I think the spurs did that too. It wasn't necessarily individualized growth, but it was a level of connectivity out there that you were like, oh, these guys are going to rock with each other really well. Yeah. And this is hope, right? It's hope, right? Yeah, absolutely. But you can, you can pick up on at least what the vibes are going to be. And if you want to see a team that connected and gelled incredibly well defensively, the Rockets and then what happened, it translated, I think, into the NBA season. So let's actually talk about the one year guys, the first year guys. Of course we've talked about bj, edscom. It didn't translate into a win, you know, for the Sixers. They did lose, I believe, to the Jazz. But overall that, that stat line was insane. The physicality was there. I'll read it off. 28 points, didn't shoot well from three, went 1 for 7 from three, but that's okay. But 10 rebounds, four assists, two. One steal, two blocks and only two turnovers, plus minus of 10. So I really liked the confidence also, particularly the quick step. I mean, yes, the explosiveness.

[Xena Kada]

Yes.

[Dave DeFore]

Of VJ looked great. Any outside of feet, I mean, including vj. Love to hear you guys thoughts. Dave, I'll start with you on any one year guys that like, oh, okay, you're coming. A little bit of strength.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah. I mean, again, I Liked what Ace Bailey did. He didn't make shots, but I like the rebounding. I mean, blocked a shot that I remember at least. I thought his physicality was pretty good. Again, I mean, playing amongst mostly rookies, young guys, I thought he looked like a player that belonged on the court. And Vijay Edum, I liked exact, like the diversity of his attack. I never knew what angle he was attacking the rack from. Like he was able to come from, from a bunch of different spaces. So I like that. Especially in his first game, you know, he didn't have any fear. And that's what you want. I mean, I expect this guy, he's gonna be out there running and gunning in Vegas. I mean, he's Gonna put up 25 shots a game maybe.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, I'll.

[Xena Kada]

I'll just add that, like the, it shows you the difference between the context that he played at and Baylor, which was like really congested college basketball. And now you see his athleticism shine where it's like he can dart through the lane because there's that opening, because there's that spacing. So, like the ATH just pops so much more to your point, Xena, about how quick he was and how his first step was. It just pops more when it comes to the professional game because of that added space, which is always the best thing for these young guys, you know?

[Dave DeFore]

You know, it's crazy. I actually, you know, you said 25 shot attempts. I said 26. It was wrong. Apparently the NBA corrected 27. 26.

[BetMGM Announcer]

There you go.

[Xena Kada]

All right.

[Dave DeFore]

He was gunning. He was putting the ball up.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah. The camera missed.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, apparently. Apparently we all missed it, man. Okay, so I like the fact that I think Vijay knows exactly what the role is going to be when he gets to the league. And he's preparing for it, clearly. Yeah, I was curious. Like, I really like the way Jalen Wells played. And I'm now going to, you know, kind of turn the focus to some of the second year guys. Khalil Ware were showing out. Like, you know, were there anyone, you know, anyone. Oh, also Cole Swider.

[Xena Kada]

He can shoot, though. That guy can shoot.

[Esper Henny]

He was.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, he really can shoot. And the thing is, I've seen goals. I've seen Cole Swider in the G League.

[Xena Kada]

Yep.

[Dave DeFore]

And I've seen him, you know, even in garbage time, like he's gonna put the ball up. And the thing about Cole that's really fun is he's not doing anything flashy.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Like, he's hitting some tough shots. I'll be honest. I Was biased towards anything I watched was California Classic a lot, mostly. And he's putting up tough shots. He's putting up a, you know, one dribble to the side, elevate, you know, space into the corner, putting it up like he's not doing anything too flashy, you know, accelerating past the defender. Not really just getting low and turning the corner around a hip.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm just trying to figure out, like, what it's going to take for some of these players that boom and bloom in summer league to be able to have it translate. Because, Dave, as you mentioned, you could do a lot of things around, you know, summer league guys. Right. You can do a lot of things against rookies, et cetera. But like. Like what? I just don't. I don't see why it doesn't translate. I mean, it looks like Cole Spider should be able to put up, yeah. At least 15 points.

[Xena Kada]

He's a grown man amongst these people.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, there's a big advantage you have when you're just older than the guys. And also he knows how, like he knows the spots. He knows, he knows the speed of the game. Right. But he's not fast enough for the speed of the NBA game. He understands it, but summer league is just. It's not that, you know, as far as translating or breaking out, it's. It's a different environment. You have to think about it. It's almost like. And you grew up playing, so, you know, like when you almost like an all star sort of camp, that's what it's more like. And if you show out individually, it can mean something, but not a ton. And especially at this point in the game, these guys already have the everyone knows who everyone is. And maybe by the end of this, we have one or two names that wind up with a roster spot that they didn't have. You know, it's. At this point, it's kind of standardized.

[Dave DeFore]

I very vividly remember to going to UNC basketball camp and killing amongst the regs. And then they shifted me because they didn't know who I was. This is my sophomore 11. Yeah, sophomore year. And they shifted me to the VIP or the all star portion of the camp. And I was like, oh my God. Not prepared. Everyone's faster, everyone's taller, everyone's touching rim. Everyone's like, you know, it was just different. And so there is a. There is a. There is a leap I had to make and there's it clear. It clearly seems like that is going to be necessary for a lot of these players are in the summer league in their second and third years, trying to get to even minutes in the NBA. But let's leave summer league for a second and now actually get into the actual NBA and talk about some of these players that need to make that leap. The ones that are going to go from playing like a reg to being an all star in their roles, at least on these teams. Yeah, the players that are capable of making a leap in your minds and also are absolutely going to. And also going to have an impact because of that leap. Want to ask you guys s. I'll start with you.

[Xena Kada]

Oh, man.

[Esper Henny]

We're going to start with me. He's going to steal mine.

[Xena Kada]

I'm probably going to steal his. I feel like I actually might steal his. I feel like I might be stealing.

[Esper Henny]

You're gonna say, babe, you just.

[Xena Kada]

Can we say it at the same time?

[Esper Henny]

Same time.

[Dave DeFore]

Time.

[Xena Kada]

Three.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. Three, two, one.

[Esper Henny]

Andrew Thompson.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh.

[Xena Kada]

Okay. All right.

[Dave DeFore]

These are awesome choices, by the way. Okay. I was gonna choose Amen Thompson, so there we go.

[Xena Kada]

Okay.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

Fair.

[Esper Henny]

I mean, yeah. Needless to say, we have. We've been really high on the Rockets summer so far, and I think when you pair Kevin Durant that with anyone, they improve. Their life gets better, life gets easier. But they added shooting to this team, and Amend Thompson is a guy who is going to thrive in space. Kevin Durant draws attention in a way that no Houston Rocket did last season.

[Xena Kada]

Yep.

[Esper Henny]

I think everything we saw out of Amend Thompson is going to be turbocharged next year. I mean, this guy. We're gonna. We might be talking all NBA potentially, for Ben Thompson, because the Rockets are going to be really good. They're going to win a lot of games. I don't think Kevin, you know, Kevin Durant is likely to miss a bunch of games, which makes a even bigger case for Amend Thompson. You know, if he has this breakout season, I think Amend Thompson is just poised for a leap. I mean, he. He's taken two leaps already in his career. Like, we've watched him kind of improve, and then, you know, he broke into the starting lineup, and then it's just been incredible. So I. I think Amend Thompson's the number one guy on my list for next season to take a jump.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, he's. That was quite literally. Yeah, he's clear.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, that was the evidence for me was going to be those in season jumps we saw quite literally, you know, being able to get into the starting lineup was one jump and then the opportunity to be a ball handler and be someone that could distribute, uh, and also offensively put up the ball. I thought that was huge. That wasn't part of his game. I think everyone kept saying, oh, of the twins, Amen's the defender, Asar is the finesser. And of course, we didn't see Asar as much because of him being out earlier in the season. And so everyone was like, oh, yeah, he's the finesser. He's got the offensive game. And then we were like, oh, wait, hold on. Did I. Men just drop 25 the other night. Okay, cool. So I definitely think that we're going to see more. And I. I always like this when I said it earlier this season, I don't know about what, about who, but now I use it all the time. I think those Thompson twins are like, AI like the more and more that they have opportunities and more reps, like they just morph and learn and absorb and evolve. And so I definitely think that Amen Thompson is going to do. I was actually really going to say the Thompson twins, there's a chance could.

[Xena Kada]

Do something too, because there's.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah, I think Assar didn't have enough time last season to be. Be able to showcase what he can get, really in a groove. And so I really think both of them could take a jump. But please s. Enlighten us on Andrew Nemhar.

[Esper Henny]

Okay.

[Dave DeFore]

This is a good one.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah. So look, most of the times when we talk about these leaps, it's like guys who make their first All Star Games, right? And I think a man is clearly in that category. Absolutely will be in consideration for an All Star Game, especially because the Rockets will be winning. He's a great defender. The offensive side of the ball. No Jalen Green anymore. So he's going to handle the ball. All that stuff is true. Very, very good candidate for this. But it's also opportunity. And obviously with the Indiana Pacers, no Tyrese Halliburton next year. I think the load, the. The playmaking load, the ball handling load, all of that will be on Andrew Nemhard. And I think what he can do as a guy who can put the ball on the floor, get to the basket. He's actually pretty crafty at creating his own shots. Like in that Finals. We've talked about it a couple times, but they opened up with a play to get him a mid range shot in one of those games. And we're like, okay, yeah, like he can do that.

[Dave DeFore]

Pretty.

[Xena Kada]

There were moments and flashes. This is before they traded for Halliburton too, where Nemhard was like, they would ask him to be the lead ball handler. So he has some experience in that department. He's a more fine tuned version of that now. Obviously a pretty stellar defender too. There's just opportunity. Indiana is going to need someone to take some shots. Going to need someone to be the ball handler and he makes a lot of sense for that. So I think Andrew Nemhardt guy who might take a leap next season also.

[Esper Henny]

I really like another guy like that is Peyton Pritchard Richard who's gonna be a guy who's gonna get more, more opportunities. And by the way another, you know, Jason Tatum obviously being out like you got me thinking about Halliburton. So. Yeah, yeah, Richard another guard.

[Xena Kada]

Absolutely.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm wondering S like with more opportunity of course Andrew Nemhard now carrying probably a larger, probably definitely a larger load from offensive perspective. Like how much do you think that might impact his ability to be the two way player he was this past 100?

[Xena Kada]

It's always a thing. Yeah, yeah. He probably won't end up being as effective defensively as was to start the year. The other thing is like they have TJ McConnell so they have another guy who can be a ball handler for them. They can probably run some double guard lineups with those two and have Andrew play off ball as a catch and shoot guy. I also think the way the Pacers offense is set up is that they're not always looking for one guy to run the show. They might have to lean on Pascal more next season with no Halliburton. But the way that they move the ball it kind of egalitarian. Right. Like it gets you, you get, get your share at some point and that will come back to Andrew I think offensively. So as long as he does his dirty work defensively, he'll be good I think.

[Esper Henny]

Let me ask you guys another name for a leap.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

How about deandre Ayton?

[Xena Kada]

I, I saw it in the comments.

[Esper Henny]

I wasn't sure if I like that idea. I like the idea for that though.

[Xena Kada]

What is that? How does that.

[Esper Henny]

I mean listen, he's, he's a good player. He's not a bad player. He's at least fine. Right. And he's got talent. The things that hold him. You might, you, you think getting in an environment in the lakers where if LeBron is staying, you know, if he's still going to be there, Luca being Luca and the way that he kind of can, can get players to, to be more motivated. I mean maybe deandre Ayton breaks out. I like the thought of it. Right. Like, we're positive, you know, like, we're optimists. Maybe deandre Ayton has a great season. That. That would be.

[Dave DeFore]

Maybe the structure. The. The structure. The. Will help that.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Dave DeFore]

I think always the factor of the stars and the lights in la, it could be a good thing, could be a distraction. So, you know, you definitely just want him to stay focused. And I think, if anything, what I am excited about, the possibility around Ayton is that there's been so many naysayers. Right. There's been a lot of people to critique his game, to critique his longevity in the league. Not from a play perspective, from a character perspective. Right. And so maybe this is his opportunity to be like, f you guys, like, I can do this. I'm with a good team, I can show up, and I'm. I'm just as good as I've always been. It's just that I've been in the wrong situation. I've been in the wrong schemes. I've been in the wrong locker room. So we'll see. We'll see. I think that's a good one. All right, close this out. We talked about a lot of players, and I think that, you know, at least with Amin Thompson, for sure, I think his leap will absolutely impact the Rockets. I think Andrew Nemhardt obviously will impact his team at the Indiana Pacers. DeAndre Ayton, sure. Yeah, absolutely.

[Esper Henny]

I mean, they need a center if he's good.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

But thinking of teams that will make a leap. Thoughts about that?

[Xena Kada]

I'll let you go first.

[Esper Henny]

So everyone's already on this, but it feels like the Atlanta Hawks are going to be the Pacers this year. Right. In the east, they've had a really good summer so far. Still have tons of assets that they can make a move for if a guy becomes available. Trey Young is a very good player, and they've enhanced what he. What he does so well with the talent around him. Obviously, Dyson Daniels last year was amazing. I think there's more on the offensive side for Dyson Daniels. I mean, we saw that a little bit when Trey Young was out.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

Yep.

[Esper Henny]

So I feel like that's the team that. That is poised to take a leap. Like, they feel like they might. They might have an Easter conference finals run in them next year. Just, you know, if everything. If everything breaks just right for them. When you consider it being a down year in the East, I think that, yeah, the Atlanta Hawks, they. They've done a really good job. Now, this is two years in A row. Remember we liked them last year too.

[Xena Kada]

We did.

[Esper Henny]

This is, this is, is capitalizing on what they've already started to build. But you know, Jalen Johnson gets back and is healthy. I think that team is going to be really good.

[Xena Kada]

My question with Atlanta is just Porzingis's health. You know, how, how healthy he's going to look because he does complete the puzzle. Picture a little bit for them in a major way. Rim protector can shoot the ball. The double drag screen options that they have with Trey would be awesome. Yeah, like that makes sense to me. Also another part of that equation sort of related to the player leap aspect aspect. Jalen Johnson only played like 30 ish games for them last year. Got hurt with that shoulder.

[Dave DeFore]

We saw him at the NBA before he went out.

[Xena Kada]

Absolutely. Yeah. So like if he's healthy and has an all star year and it's like, okay, yes, then Atlanta is definitely a top four team next year in the Eastern Conference. Xena, you want to go next? I want to leave mine for that.

[Dave DeFore]

I can, I can. I. You know, first, before we, before I go, I want to ask was to. How are you guys defining leap?

[Esper Henny]

Oh, okay. You know, that's a pretty good one. So for me it was. It's play into contention. Right. Like, and, and maybe the Hawks aren't contending for real.

[Xena Kada]

It should be playoff to championship too. Or like bottom of the barrel.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Xena Kada]

There's multiple different versions of this. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay.

[Xena Kada]

Beauty in the eye of the beholders.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah. Around here.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay. I like that I have an option that's going to make you guys tickle, but I'll actually, I'll go with another one. I think the Orlando Magic are going to make a leap this year. I think Paola, Ben Caro friends walked in her like they really. I feel like they were clicking on something and they were just there literally. When I, when we watched them, particularly in the playoffs last year, I don't know if they're going to be be past a first round, second round exit, but with Jamal Mosley at the helm, I really think that anything is possible. Yeah, I also, I also feel like in the east almost every team is capable of making a leap.

[Xena Kada]

It's honestly true. You could say like 10.

[Dave DeFore]

Like as I'm looking down, like when I think about the East, I feel like Charlotte could make a leap. I feel, I feel like anyone in the east could, could make a jump just because it feels a little bit more wide open. Maybe outside the Bucks, I feel like some. The Bucks, I feel like are still. Kind of.

[Xena Kada]

Well, the Bucks and Bulls are just all. They're gonna be the 9, 10, 8, 9, 10. Somewhere there. They'll be there. You know, you guys are.

[Esper Henny]

Oh, man. Wow. I'm sending this to Giannis. There is no way Giannis is gonna be on a play in team. Guys, I'm just telling you right now, I like it.

[Dave DeFore]

No, I don't think that. I don't think I. You know what? I'll say this. I won't say that he's gon playing team. I just don't know if they've changed that much. Even with the addition of Miles Turner.

[Xena Kada]

I don't.

[Dave DeFore]

I don't know how much that's changed. I think my true leap team is San Antonio. I think Wendy's going to come back.

[Xena Kada]

Yep.

[Dave DeFore]

There's already growth we're seeing in Devin Bissell, Stefan Castle. De' Aon Fox now gets an offseason and a training camp with this team. They're going to gel really well. They've got the. The continuation of Mitch Johnson as a coach. They added solid, you know, players in Connor Bryant and. And Dylan Harper, which we haven't seen yet. He has not played in summer league yet. Yeah, but I really. That's my true, true option. But I really look at the east and I'm just like. I feel like all these young teams that have young talent that didn't quite get a ton of opportunity to play together last year. I mean, the fact, the reason why I looked at Arlando, I'm like, the fact that both France and Paolo, they missed.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Injury and missed so much time, came back and still made a legitimate showing in the playoffs.

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Suggs, too.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, well, Suggs is the big addiction.

[Dave DeFore]

There's opportunity there with them being all together. They were. They were my team. You know, I almost wanted Jamal Mosley, like, for coach of the year.

[Esper Henny]

For.

[Dave DeFore]

That reason of him being able to just, you know, bring all these people together. So that's my choice. I'm gonna do with San Antonio first.

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First.

[Xena Kada]

But yeah, I like both choices. To be honest with you, Xena, I. I would probably put Orlando right behind Cleveland and New York as the. The Eastern Conference, you know, dark horse contender, whatever you want to call them. Right.

[Dave DeFore]

I like it.

[Xena Kada]

I just. I think they're wildly talented. They're such a good defensive team. Bane is going to help them. Like there is. So. And to your point about the. The Eastern Conference, you could really sell yourself on a lot of these teams. I was thinking I was looking at.

[Esper Henny]

The Wizards versus Toronto.

[Xena Kada]

I'm, I'm gonna make that case right now in a second. But like I could, I could, I could look at the Wizards roster and say, okay, they've got Marcus Smart, Chris Middleton, those guys, obviously they're expiring but like those are vets that are probably going to will them into a couple of games. Are they interested in winning those games? I don't know. But they also have young guys. I like Trey Johnson, I like Bilal Koulibaly, I like Alex Sarge. I genuinely, Bob Carrington is a fun guy to watch. I like the Wizards. Could be one of those teams where any of us are on league pass on a Tuesday night and they are in a overtime game with the Lakers and you're like, how the hell is. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'm jumping ahead.

[Dave DeFore]

They're like the true definition of a two timeline team right now. Yeah, like they are the blueprint for what that looks like to have vets.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, they got a bunch of vets that they probably will end up trading, but maybe there's a world they like. You're looking. I don't know. I just like what the Wizards are building. That's my only thing.

[Dave DeFore]

Okay, okay. What's your leap team?

[Xena Kada]

Yeah, my leap team, west out west is the Portland Trailblazers. I've been on this for a couple of, you know, months now. I think Portland is a team that like I love. Especially if Drew, especially if Drew stays. I think they'll be a very, very good defensive team and defense in the regular season. Like that will get you like 37 plus wins. How they work offensively will be my big question. Who takes the shots for them is a big question too. Just without Simons, it's like you're relying on Scoot Henderson and Shaden Sharp and Denny Abdia. Like those guys need to take leaps offensively. Their center rotation now with Ayton not there, it's like cling in and you know, Rob Williams is going to be back and Hanson Yang, is he going to get playing time? Like there are some questions with that team but I'm pretty excited for them defensively in the East. I do think it is the Raptors though because I will just make this pitch to you right now. They won 30 games last year. Okay. They're over under win total right now and I'm not a betting guy, but they're over under win total is like 36 and a half. Okay, sure. Adding Brandon Ingram probably makes them better than 36 and a half. Also in a terrible Eastern Conference. They're probably better than 36 and a half wins. You're going to beat up on the Wizards and Nets and Bulls and maybe even Hornets of the world. World. Yeah, I could see this team making a leap no problem. Just because they have. They, they're expensive. They should be making this. You know, like if they don't make a leap then there's big problems in Toronto. Like they got a lot of big decisions to make if they can't win a bunch of games in the Eastern Conference.

[Esper Henny]

So what are we saying? 30, 37 wins in the nine seed.

[Xena Kada]

Dude. My, my.

[Esper Henny]

I'm.

[Xena Kada]

I don't know if I should go as hot. This, this, this doesn't feel like the right place to make this really bold prediction. I'm saying 45 wins for the Toronto.

[Esper Henny]

That's insane. That' absolutely absurd.

[Xena Kada]

I know, I know. Look, they just, they have, they have their again has to go incredibly right. And if you're looking at the rest of the Eastern Conference, 45 wins would probably put.

[Esper Henny]

The Raptors are being moved to the G League in this scenario.

[Xena Kada]

I think, dude, they have talent.

[Dave DeFore]

They introducing relegation to the NBA.

[Xena Kada]

They added Brandon Ingram.

[Dave DeFore]

They.

[Xena Kada]

I'm not going to make the pitch here but I'm just saying generally there's a world in which sounds like you're.

[Esper Henny]

Making the pitch as Brandon Ingram.

[Dave DeFore]

Yeah.

[Esper Henny]

Brandon Ingram. Known. Known NBA basketball winner Brandon Ingram.

[Xena Kada]

Hey, playoffs Brandon against the Suns could.

[Dave DeFore]

Just be the right scenario.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah, it should be. That's.

[Xena Kada]

Look, I can see a world in which they are like they're, they're back and trying to tank and all that type of stuff. But I think given how expensive they are are and how much money they have invested into this group of players, whether you like them or not, they are going to try and win. And that. Yeah. That. That ends up changing things for how the Raptors can.

[Esper Henny]

Hey look, I don't see it. The Bull wins.

[Dave DeFore]

The.

[Xena Kada]

The who? Okay. Here I'll. I'll just list teams. You guys say if they are better or worse than the Rafters. Okay. The Wizards.

[Esper Henny]

Worse.

[Xena Kada]

Okay. Okay. The Hornets.

[Esper Henny]

Don't know yet.

[Dave DeFore]

Don't know yet.

[Xena Kada]

You gotta commit. You gotta commit.

[Dave DeFore]

I'm gonna say better.

[Esper Henny]

I'm gonna say better.

[Xena Kada]

Okay. The. The. The Brooklyn Nets.

[Esper Henny]

Obviously worse. Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

Yeah. Okay. Chicago Bulls.

[Dave DeFore]

Better.

[Esper Henny]

Same. I think they're about the same or better. I think Bulls are maybe better. Wow.

[Dave DeFore]

I think I'm gonna say better.

[Xena Kada]

Who is starting for the. Okay, whatever.

[Esper Henny]

All right.

[Xena Kada]

The Miami Heat. I would probably say they're about similar.

[Esper Henny]

Yeah.

[Xena Kada]

Okay.

[Dave DeFore]

We just started this whole show with Norm Pal being phenom. But okay, yes, I appreciate that we're.

[Esper Henny]

All on board with wanting Charlotte to be better because they're, they're making smarter moves. They may not actually be better than the Raptors. Let me just be honest there.

[Xena Kada]

Right. Okay. The, the, the other teams I would probably say are better. Like, yeah, Boston, Indiana.

[Esper Henny]

These teams we keep forgetting about. The Sixers. The Sixers are not going to be, be a 24 win team.

[Xena Kada]

I have no idea what to expect from that team, to be honest.

[Esper Henny]

But they're not. They're going to be better than 24 wins. They have to be. Otherwise everyone's losing their job. So.

[Xena Kada]

Yep. Yeah.

[Dave DeFore]

Oh my God. That's a great way to end this show. Wow. Didn't know when we started we'd be ranking teams against the Toronto Raptors, but that's what we do here at the NBA Daily. Thank you guys so much for joining us online as well. Any of you listening to us right now? Now for Dave to four, I'm S Bar Henny telling you go like subscribe. Do all the things to make sure that people know about us. We like to talk hoops and we like to do it in an honest way, including ranking teams against the Toronto Raptors. All right guys, enjoy the rest of your Monday. We'll be back here tomorrow. Bye.

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