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The Autism Little Learners Podcast
#152 - How to Explain Autism to Children: Neuro-Affirming Tips from an Autistic SLP
00:50:44
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- [00:00]
A
Have you ever wondered how to talk to children about autism? In today's episode, I had the honor of talking to Andy Putt about the importance of early conversations about autism and how to empower autistic children through understanding their identity. We also talk about the significance of normalizing these conversations among peers and Andy offers some effective ways to explain autism to children. This episode is one that you are going to want to share with everyone you know.
- [00:37]
Hi, I'm Tara and this is the Autism Little Learners Podcast. I am a speech language pathologist with a twist. I've run my own communication based classroom for over two decades and I'm so excited to share actionable tips and strategies for supporting young autistic children. My goal is to help you feel more confident and successful when teaching your autistic child or students at the early childhood level. If you are ready to learn some tried and true strategies that really work, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started.
- [01:20]
Before we get started, I want to tell you a little more about Andy. Andy Putt, also known as Mrs. Speechy P. Is an autistic speech language pathologist specializing in team based autism evaluations and neuroaffirming support. She is dedicated to empowering families and helping autistic children understand and embrace their authentic selves while also advocating for each individual's unique needs. When she's not advocating for others, you can find her indulging in a good book, planning her next travel adventure, procrastinating literally anything, or enjoying time with her family. You guys, I'm so excited to welcome our next guest to the podcast, Andy Putt. She's a speech language pathologist and I'm sure you've probably seen her content on Instagram. If not, we'll link how to find her. But thank you so much for agreeing to be here and I'm so thrilled to have you, Andy.
- [02:16]
B
Thank you. I'm really excited to chat and finally connect.
- [02:20]
A
Good, good, good. Can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself? I said you're an slp, but what is it that you do?
- [02:27]
B
Yep. So I am a slp. I specialize in autism evaluations, which is usually pretty different from I think what a lot of SLPs do. But I did work in the schools. That's kind of where I got started that for 15 years. So I had caseloads and did evaluations and now I am mostly doing social media running my business. That was a total accident of a business and I probably have no business running anything, but here I am. And I also do some private autism evaluations, just a few a month that are team based. So I've been just not wanting to let go of that practice.
- [03:16]
While I'm advocating for autism and disabilities.
- [03:21]
A
Well, you do just an awesome job of advocating and making things kind of understandable, like why neurodiversity affirming is the way to go. And like you just explained so many concepts and a lot of your infographics in a super easy to understand way. So thank you for that. I see people sharing your stuff all the time. In fact, I was scrolling Facebook today and I can't remember what like special ed group it was, but they had shared one of your infographics and I'm just like, yes, yes, get the info out there. So it's really, really exciting.
- [03:56]
B
Yeah, I love it. And I think it's really important because like a lot of times when the information's given, it's like in this research based language that I don't even understand, you know, like this is my area of specialty. And then when you give me like these researchy or like, you know, anything like an attorney would write, and I'm like, what does this mean? And I'm like. So I'm like, I don't like that. And I want it to be in words that I understand and that's how I best learn. So I think it's really important for people to have access to that. Including speech pathologists.
- [04:30]
A
Absolutely. I mean there are so many people out there. What I found, I'm much like you. I had no thought of ever leaving the classroom and running my own business. And it just kind of evolved over time and the need is there and I just still. There's so many people that come to people like you, people like Carrie Ebert come to my community because they're thirsty for information and they know like some of the strategies they've been taught don't feel right. They don't pass the like this feels yucky factor. And that's actually one of the things Terry, who I co taught with for 10 years were like, if it feels yucky, don't do it.
- [05:12]
B
Exactly, exactly.
- [05:14]
A
Yeah. And, and coming from the school base like me, I did autism evaluations too. Like so many adases and all of that. And it's a whole different kind of realm for speech language pathologists. And.
- [05:28]
Some of us that have the passion for it get thrust into it and it becomes a big part of our job. So I think it's great. And I can see why you don't want to let go of that piece because it really is.
- [05:41]
Really interesting and rewarding work to work through, families through that process and kind of, kind of bring them to the next step for sure.
- [05:51]
B
And I think too, like, what people don't really realize is that it's like continual learning. So I still learn new things in evaluations because something happens and I'm not quite sure how to explain it. And so I'm looking it up and looking for more information about that. And so I feel like a lot of people just feel like, okay, I'm here, this is my job, I'm doing it, I know it all. There's nothing new to learn and there's so much new things to learn. And like even my practice is ever evolving. I get better at writing reports the more I write and I get better at recognizing autism the more evaluations I do. And so I think like, kind of just having that open minded, like new information, growth is so important.
- [06:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think some of us have that love for learning and you strike me like that too, like you want to learn more, bring it in, help people understand it. So it's awesome. Well, the thing I really was excited to talk to you about today is about talking to peers, talking to siblings, talking to the autistic child about autism. And I know that you have some amazing resources that we'll talk about too today. But really thinking about how do you introduce autism? And so what do you recommend or when do you recommend, I should say, introducing the topic of autism to the child who has been diagnosed, is there a certain like age or stage?
- [07:17]
B
I wish I could give like these really definitive answers, but you're going to hear me say this like on repeat, is that it depends on the child. Right. But I will say the earlier the better. So even if you have a really young child who doesn't understand, kind of like you would with adoption, like, it's just going to be like a continuing conversation and something that you're never going to want to hide because you don't want them to think that something's wrong. And if you hide it, that's insinuating that something is wrong and you want to protect them from this diagnosis, you know, or this information. And so what the research actually says is that knowing you're autistic and knowing why you're different can make huge differences for a child's mental health and set them up for better success because they're realizing, oh, it's not that I've been doing things wrong. My Whole life or like what's easy for everybody else is so hard for me. No matter how hard I try, I still can't do it. It's just suddenly like, oh, it's just autism. So I would always say this is just something that you're going to be talking about from a young age. And even if you're just talking about autism in general, like at my house, when I do something, my husband's like, oh, it's the autism, you know, and so it's just something that we just have as a word in our house and that makes that takes away that stigma right away. Because we talk about it, it's not hiding. We identify traits of it, like why things happen.
- [08:43]
And my son, he, he is neurodivergent. He chooses not to share his diagnosis. But we do talk about his diagnosis as well and identify the traits. And he does have a really strong fight or flight response to a lot of things. And so we talk about that like this is a fight or fight response, usually not when he's in the middle of it. Right. But. And so that once he knows kind of what's happening in his brain, he's a lot of the times he can go from that fight or flight to, oh, yeah, I know what this is. I have a word for this. I can describe it. And my body's not actually being attacked by a bear. You know, I was just told to do something that I just didn't want to do. I had a really strong reaction. And just sometimes just being able to walk himself through that is huge. And so the same thing for autism, just having that information gives kids so much power over like their identity, but also like their actions and why they do things that they do.
- [09:38]
A
You know, you perfectly combined my first two questions together, which is awesome because they're just interconnected. I was going to ask you how explaining autism in a way that's positive is empowering for the child and you just put it into beautiful, perfect words there.
- [09:55]
B
It's hard to like, yeah, to like answer a question without really covering like, why, why, why should we. Not necessarily like when should we, but why should we know the why? And that like you're like, oh, that gives the kid power. Oh, yes, I do want to tell them earlier. And oh yes, this is a continuing conversation and not just a one time thing because a lot of times parents, I feel like they think that they have to have all of the answers and all of the information when they sit down to have that conversation. And, and for kids that are older Sometimes that really is helpful to have that. But when kids are young, most of the time they're just like, okay, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
- [10:34]
A
Same thing when you're talking to peers about autism, you know, when you start at a young age. I was at the elementary level for the first half of my career, and we talked about autism openly, did education, like, all kinds of things to make, you know, we're thinking, like, okay, this is going to help friendships or whatever. Kids are just like, oh, yeah, okay. Like, it's not a big deal, especially normalizing talking about things like that at that age by the time they grew up. So my daughter is 27 now, and she was in the same school that I taught at. So she was in classrooms with a lot of my students and, you know, heard the talks and all of that. And she said there was a huge difference. We just talked about this at Christmas. She said when she went to middle school, where all the elementaries combined, so maybe six different elementaries. She's like, you could tell immediately who had been in the school that had the autism program, because these kids became advocates and understood. So if there was a child in the lunchroom that was pointing something out or saying something not nice, you could tell the kids that were from her school were like, hey, no, you know, that's so and so. And he's autistic, like, kind of like end of story. And, you know, that's a piece, too. That's really important. But we don't want to leave out the autistic child in this scenario, you know, like, teaching everyone else about it and not them.
- [12:07]
B
Yeah, And a lot of times that happens. Right. Like, people are like, how I can tell my. Their siblings, you know, and sometimes when you do that, that sets autistic kids up to be babied. Right.
- [12:17]
C
And we.
- [12:17]
B
They don't need to be babied. Some. A lot of them do need support, but it's not like, you know, sometimes when we do that, then it puts these, like, neurotypical kids on a higher level than autistic kids who do need support or disabled kids who need support. And so I think that being able to talk about this, like, what support looks like and how some kids really do need help, but some kids maybe don't want help. So offer help first, see if they want it, you know, can be huge in those conversations as well.
- [12:46]
A
Yeah. And. And like you said from an early age, if you're just talking about autism, you know, they're maybe not at an age where they understand if you sat down and said, okay, you are autistic, and it means xyz. You know, they're three years old, they're four years old. They might not understand that. But starting that conversation and openly talking about autism, I think would help a lot, because I've had.
- [13:13]
A girl named Lindsay who was on my podcast last year. She's from the area that I live in, and she's an adult now in her 20s. And she said, I can't remember what age she said, but it was later, like, at least middle school. And she had all the things you were talking about, like her mental health and wondering why no one wanted to pick her at for the team in gym class and why no one would. Literally, no one would sit by her on the bus. And then, you know, she thought it was her, like, something faulty about her. And then I think they said, well, you're autistic. And her mom even said, like, I didn't realize even really that we were keeping it from her. It just kind of evolved, you know, like, they thought, oh, she's doing good. Do we really need to talk about it? And, you know, she talked about what a relief it was to have that explanation.
- [14:09]
B
I think that's so important to bring up, too, because I think a lot of especially girls will internalize, like, those feelings. And so parents don't always see those struggles, and teachers don't always see those struggles. And so they're like, oh, they're doing fine, when really they might not be, you know.
- [14:25]
C
Right.
- [14:25]
B
And also they might like. I was diagnosed autistic last year when I was 39, and I really didn't feel like I struggled a lot all through school, really, because. And I actually even thrived in school because there was, like, rules and due dates and things that really structured life for me. And so school actually was a really good thing for me. And I had friends. So, like, even for me, maybe knowing that, would that have made a difference? You know, I don't really know, but for a lot of people, it would have made a huge difference. And now as an adult, it did make a big difference for me because I was like, oh, this explains why everything seems to be so much harder for me than it is for other people, or why once I had a child and lost, like, all that natural recovery time that you had before you had kids, everything was way harder. That was really when my differences came out, and it was more exhaustion and burnout than.
- [15:29]
Necessarily, like, super clear social differences.
- [15:32]
A
Yeah, that makes sense. I remember back when you talked about it A year ago. And it was really just interesting to watch your journey. And that's why I say your openness, because.
- [15:45]
I think it. It just brings home how many people are out there that maybe are searching for answers or, you know, don't realize what's going on. And they're finding out well into adulthood.
- [16:01]
About a year, just over a year ago, maybe a year and a half, I had a guy from high school that I knew who I haven't literally haven't talked to since high school. But we've were friends on Facebook and he reached out and he said, hey, I was just given the autism diagnosis at 53.
- [16:19]
B
Yeah.
- [16:19]
A
And he's like, it explains so much. And he's not someone that really knew or he didn't know anything about autism, so it wasn't like he even suspected. He just thought, I have mental health stuff.
- [16:33]
C
Yeah.
- [16:33]
A
And going on in general. And he went and they kind of noted some things and said, can we go down this route? And he's like, yeah. And it just was so interesting to hear him talk about it with no knowledge of autism before, but going, okay, first grade check. That's why I was. I'm not a bad person.
- [16:54]
C
Right.
- [16:54]
A
You know, being a boy and active, gotten a lot of trouble. And so for him, it's was really, really a wonderful journey in a way. Okay, what's your dog's name?
- [17:06]
B
This is Maui. She's a little, clumsy girl.
- [17:09]
A
Hi, Maui. If you're listening on the podcast, you'll have to go watch on YouTube so you can see Maui's little guest appearance.
- [17:19]
B
She feels like she needs to be sitting on me or touching me at all times.
- [17:23]
A
Yeah.
- [17:25]
B
But I'm not far.
- [17:27]
A
She's being really good for now. Oh, how sweet. Well, okay, so what, Andy, what are some simple, like, child friendly ways to describe autism?
- [17:38]
B
So I like to.
- [17:41]
It depends really on. On the child's age. But if we were going with the younger child, I would just say for sure, everybody is different. And then I like to introduce just differences that kids can see. Right. Or what do you think is different about you.
- [17:57]
Compared to some other kids in your class? You know, so sometimes it can be skin color, hair color. The things that we like are things that we can't really see. Right. We get a little bit trickier. And sometimes our brains are different. And do you think that that means that your brain is like green while everybody else's brains are pink? You know, and then so you can throw in some fun things just to kind of get their interest in there? You know, and then you say, no, it doesn't look different. It's just different on the inside. And sometimes that difference, one of the differences is called autism. And I would give the kid specific examples about what makes them autistic. So, you know, like, sometimes when there's really loud sounds and you cover your ears and it's really overwhelming to you, but other people don't really seem to be bothered, or how sometimes all the kids at recess always play together and you sometimes just kind of need a break and you like to walk around the outside of the. Of the playground, you know, and so give some examples of what that is. And that's because you're autistic and you have different needs. And sometimes that's being alone, and sometimes that's noise canceling headphones, you know, and then giving examples of the supports that they need. And then just kind of explain other kids just, they don't need that. They don't need that. They have other needs that they have that you maybe don't have.
- [19:17]
But that's. That's usually like just anything that's kind of specifically tailored to the child you're talking to.
- [19:24]
A
Yeah, I love the example, too, of how you phrase that, of you like to have some time alone or need some time alone away from everybody, instead of framing it as like an antisocial kind of thing, and you need to join into the group and do what they do, like really allowing permission and being okay with, like, this is a need of yours. And. And I can relate to that, that need to be alone, because I don't know why, but as I get older, the more sounds and, you know, sensory stimulation, I get sensory overload way easier than ever before, and I need to retreat and have some of that alone time. So imagine if you were not given permission to do that or make it seem like this is okay, this is normal for some people. Yeah.
- [20:17]
B
You don't want to make kids feel like their recovery time and taking care of themselves is wrong, right, or bad. Like you. Well, you don't join in the other kids. I always tell parents, like, ask them, do you want to join in with the kids or do you want to. Do you like to have that time alone? Because that's what really matters. Like, I feel like we do try to therapize kids and make them want to be with other kids all the time, but I'm like, that's not how that works. You know, you can't ignore your needs.
- [20:47]
To benefit anybody else.
- [20:49]
A
Yeah, Yeah, I. I like that you say Ask them. And especially if they're able to answer or, you know, give you insight on that, like deferring to kids about themselves and their needs and, and you know, maybe for them, being on the playground is a time to just bring their sensory state back down so that they can handle the rest of the day in the classroom without the added pressures of, okay, you need to go join a game. Let's, you know, make you go join with your peers on the playground, because we think that's the appropriate thing to do. So really taking into account what they have to say, I think we've just over the years learned more and more about that and how important it is for sure.
- [21:32]
B
And I think what people don't even realize is like, when we do say, oh, you have to join the group, then the whole group of neurotypical peers is getting their free time like that. Playing with their friends is their regulation time. That's how they get regulated. So they're getting that. And then we're throwing the neurodivergent kids into that, dysregulating them more. And so that gives those neurotypical kids a higher advantage again, once they get back to the classroom, they're regulated where the neurodivergent kid needed that break, they needed that time alone, and they weren't given it. And so now they're even more dysregulated and not ready to work.
- [22:09]
A
Right.
- [22:09]
B
Because it wasn't, it was an uneven recess.
- [22:14]
A
Yes. And you talking about this, like, completely makes me think about my son. He's 30 now, but back when he was in elementary school, he was put on an IEP for emotional behavior disability. And looking back, there's definitely. His brain is neurodivergent for sure, but he was in a program that was very completely behavioral based at the time. And I, you know, I was young, I didn't know how to stand up to this. And I just knew what felt yucky, right? And to me, what they did for him felt yucky. And it was the whole point system behavioral chart. And I looked at my son as, oh my gosh, like he lost all these points, meaning he can't go out on the playground. What do you think the rest of the day is going to be like for him? Right? And it's, and it, you know, it's day after day that, well, you didn't get it here. So no recess again. And it was like over a week. And I'm like, this is counterproductive. This isn't helping. He can't get himself out of that hole, he, you know, so thinking about behavioral approaches and I know you and I are on a tangent right now, but it's just really important when you're thinking about what kind of approaches and you talking about if a child needs recess and needs time alone there to kind of get themselves back to an optimal place for learning and it doesn't involve playing with their peers like it's okay. It is okay. And also, don't ever take recess away, period. That's my thing for sure.
- [23:56]
B
And while we're on the tangent, I do think it's really important because so many people who are, who are neuro affirming are like, you can't use behavior charts or, you know, whatever. And I think that too should be up to a child.
- [24:09]
C
Like, because my kid love. It is easy for him. Historically this year has been harder, but historically it has been easy for him to be good for people who can't see me at school.
- [24:23]
B
Yeah, so much at home.
- [24:24]
C
But so if he gets the smiley faces and he can earn whatever, that's easy for him. He loves that.
- [24:33]
B
And yeah, you know, we even will do things like that's probably bribery because he has some anxiety. And so like right now he has the. There's a fitness scrim that everybody has to do this, like running and I.
- [24:47]
C
Don'T even know what all his. He does not want to do that. And he got a letter from the PE teacher. He refused to do it.
- [24:53]
B
And I was like, well, what do.
- [24:55]
C
You think we could do to make this easier for you?
- [24:58]
B
And you know, I told you earlier.
- [24:59]
C
He has an easily activated fight or place. And one of the things that can help him with that is if it's his decision. So if there's anything I can do to make doing this fitness his decision. He had the power to do that. And that was a bribe. I will buy you something on mine. I'll give you the Minecraft money once this is all finished. If you do it.
- [25:21]
A
Yeah.
- [25:21]
B
He's like, okay. And so now he's like, that's great. Can't this be finished?
- [25:24]
C
I'll do it all because I'm gonna get this. So it kind of just like took away that nervous system response. Now it's his decision. And so things like, like when he was getting potty trained, he asked for a behavior chart because that's what they had at school. And he's like, I know I'm gonna do it anyway, and so let me.
- [25:42]
B
Do it and I'll earn something. He's really great, smart but yeah, so like, yeah, so sometimes that still it was important to him, he likes it. And so sometimes we'll do those things that I would never do with any other kid. One, because maybe being good or doing the things is not achievable for them, not easy for them, not a thing that they would be doing anyways. But when it's something that kids are doing anyways, I'm fine with giving you usually things that I would probably give you anyways. Like, you know, like, what If I.
- [26:11]
C
Spend $10 on Minecraft coins? Probably was something I would have done in the next month or two anyway. Yeah.
- [26:19]
B
So just kind of reworking some of that and allowing kids to think that they do have that power and autonomy over some things. Historically, looking at it, that might be called bribery or it might be called not nerd or diversity affirming, but when it works for a kid, I think it's important to kind of view it as an individual basis, I guess that long haul story.
- [26:38]
A
Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought that up because, you know, the experience I had with my son was.
- [26:47]
Pretty, I feel like punitive, like it went down the negative path, losing everything. But there were so many times where I used incentives for him with something he really loved, you know, a new fishing pole or whatever, and that incentivized him. But I think like you said, they have to be the one kind of choosing it, choosing the option and what feels good to them. And as you were talking, I thought too, like, if someone took away my checklists, my ability to make my list and check everything off. So I guess some people do thrive in extra structure like that. And I think it's that yuckiness factor that I brought up at the beginning. If, if something feels yucky or it's going down this bad road or turning really punitive, negative, you know, that's kind of what you want to avoid. But if it's helping build him up and structure his. What he needs to get done, what he wants to get done in a way that is positive for him and he wants to do it then.
- [27:51]
B
Exactly like your choice. You ask the kids who would get negative marks on their behavior charts. They, if they want one. No, they are not going to want one. But the kids get the positive remarks, you know, because it's easy for them, that's natural for them, they're gonna do it anyway.
- [28:07]
A
Yeah.
- [28:08]
B
Then it's not necessarily, you know, like we might say positive reinforcement, and it kind of is. But also usually it's the kids that are gonna be doing that anyway. So it's not actually changing, like, behavior that people think that that is what that bought, what those do. But it is like giving kids some.
- [28:28]
C
Feedback for things that are easy for them, and they deserve to be praised for things.
- [28:31]
B
Just like kids who maybe need different supports or would need different structuring would.
- [28:37]
C
Not like that, you know?
- [28:39]
A
Right, right. So kind of goes back to what you said. It depends on the child. And then just being really individualized and thoughtful and asking them when they're able to tell you, be really good. Okay, so what are some common mistakes that adults make when explaining autism to a child? And how can we avoid those?
- [28:58]
B
I think the biggest mistake is when we have our own negative biases or internalized ableism where we use the words.
- [29:09]
C
That make it seem like autism is bad or something that's wrong with the child. And I think it's really hard to retrain the way that you think to be able to take some of those things out of your language. I think sometimes people say things and they don't realize that it's negative or that it can have a negative be interpreted as negative to another person.
- [29:36]
B
And so I think really just kind.
- [29:38]
C
Of practicing and thinking about what you're saying, so that you're saying autism is different. It's not wrong or bad. You may need support, and that's okay. Like, that's okay. Everybody needs support with things. You may even need more support than most people, and that's also okay. But kind of like just being careful with how you say it, like, there's nothing wrong with you.
- [30:02]
B
It's not bad.
- [30:03]
C
I wouldn't take this away, or, like, I wouldn't change you. I'd love to make the world easier for you if you have any, like, legitimate symptoms, like.
- [30:15]
Like, there's connection with gut health. If I can take away those gut, you know, negative symptoms, that I would do that.
- [30:24]
B
Right.
- [30:24]
C
So, like, it's.
- [30:25]
B
I could.
- [30:26]
C
I can. We can do things, like medically to help kids, and that's fine to say, but there's nothing wrong with you. Like, you are not broken. I love you. You're perfect. I wouldn't change anything about you. I think that's probably the biggest fertile.
- [30:42]
B
And I think it's hard, like I.
- [30:45]
C
Said, because it's how we were all taught about disability and autism. And so I think my next step then would be if you reflect on what you said and maybe you said something that you're like, oh, my gosh, I shouldn't have said that. Sit down and have that conversation and say, you know, when I was taught about autism or sometimes people have thoughts about people, people that aren't right. And I had that and now I.
- [31:12]
B
Thought about it and, and I think.
- [31:14]
C
We need to talk about this because I don't actually believe, you know, I.
- [31:18]
B
Don'T believe anything's wrong with you. I didn't mean to say it that way. Here's what I meant to say. And so I think, like, people are.
- [31:26]
C
So afraid of making mistakes. We're all going to make mistakes. Like, there's not going to be a perfect way to have this conversation. And honestly, I would say most parents will spend so much time and effort fretting over how it's going to go and the kid's going to be like, okay. And you're going to be like, do.
- [31:42]
B
You have any questions? No, can we go play Minecraft? You know, whatever the thing is, you know, and so, But I think it is important to model, like, I made a mistake. This isn't, this isn't what I meant. Or I've changed my mind about how I felt, or I really sat down and thought about it and I realized that what I thought wasn't right.
- [32:04]
A
To.
- [32:05]
B
Be able to continue the conversation.
- [32:07]
A
Yeah, I love that piece, Andy, because it's something I haven't really, really thought about as much, especially working with younger kids, but as they get older and, you know, you're able to maybe have a back and forth conversation about it and you can come back and, and repair and use that moment to kind of teach them that you're human too and that it's okay to, you know, make mistakes and come back and repair it and.
- [32:38]
B
Yeah, or change your mind once you have new information.
- [32:41]
A
Yes. Oh, yes. Change your mind once you have new information. I think that's the point a lot of people are at right now of, okay, we used to do things this way, or we've always done things this way. And there's been a shift with the neurodiversity movement and people are learning, but they're hard on themselves. Or there's some people that are like, well, no, this is how we do it. And you know, so getting others on board to kind of make the shift, it's with everything you have to try to embrace a growth mindset and change things when you realize, like, oh, wait, that's outdated, or what I was saying is maybe not how I meant to say it, honey, that kind of thing for sure.
- [33:26]
B
And I think it's being on social media, it's really easy to kind of recognize that, like, if I look at some of my old posts, I'm like, oh.
- [33:34]
Like, that is not how I would say that now. Or that's not even how I would teach that now or do that. And that's okay, you know, and even, like, I've shared, like, these are the mistakes that I have made in the past. Everybody look at them. Because it's like, it's normal to make mistakes. It's normal to learn new information and change and take what you once did and do it better. Like, that is, you know, a great thing.
- [34:04]
A
And taking baby steps, you know, you can't learn something new and then all of a sudden implement it perfectly without an issue. So, you know, just looking at those small bits of progress you make or anybody makes and recognizing that and being okay with that, like, we're moving forward, we're making shifts, and everything's going to be okay. So what are the benefits of having open conversations with a child's classmates about autism? Like, how does that impact inclusion, Peer relationships? Do you have to get permission? That kind of thing?
- [34:41]
B
Yes. So, first off, if you wanted to talk about a specific child, I would recommend that you have parent and child permission, because it's nobody's business to disclose a child's diagnosis other than the child. But also, they're minor. So you do have to have both parent and child permission. Sometimes that can be really hard. And if I'm going to do this, which is actually pretty rare, to make it, like, super individualized, I have done it when there was, like, bullying going on, and it was because this child was not clearly disabled. Because what we tend to see is kids that are clearly disabled, they go get lots of support from their peers in elementary because they're clearly different and they clearly need support. The kids who just need a little bit of support, they're weird, and they are targets for bullying. So this is when that happens. If I have somebody who's really a target of bullying because they're weird, which I don't use weird as a. As a bad word. I use weird as a compliment because I'm weird. So I tell my kids, it's great to be weird. It would be really boring if you weren't. And that also kind of sets them up. Like, you're gonna be. If you're autistic, you are gonna be called weird. Like, you just are. So. And sometimes we take, like, people mean it to be really mean. But if we. If I've accepted that, I'm like, yeah, okay. And then that that bullying loot. They lose their power. Um, so. But the weird kids, right? The ones who are just kind of different but not like, clearly disabled, those are the kids that tend to get bullied. And so I feel like when I can bring them into teaching their classmates about autism and that it's a disability and that they may need support with this and this and this, but they're really good at this and this and this. I think that that's really helpful. Now, for most of the time, I just recommend talking about disability and autism in general terms. And a lot of times kids will identify themselves through that. Like, so I didn't have any parent permission. I didn't have the students permission. I'm just talking about autism. I start explaining autism, and, oh, that's me, you know, and that happens. Like, I've done that before when the parent didn't give me permission to have the conversation about the child. Like, well, I'm just going to teach about autism. And then they're kind of like starts getting the ball rolling, right? Yeah, but just having them know. And I could be like, there's probably like five kids in this classroom that are autistic, and you don't know who they are. And so. But they do tend to be targets of bullying because they're a little bit different. And differences are. Okay, we should all celebrate differences. Like, everybody has differences somehow. And so I think that when we do that, that can make a big difference as well. And to where you don't necessarily have to single out kids, Just let them know, hey, there's 10 kids in your grade that are autistic, and you don't know who they are because they're not that different. But they do tend to get targeted by bullies, and they don't always react well to being bullied. But nobody should, right? Like, that's fair to anybody. How would you feel if. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I think that having both of those conversations, depending on the situation, can be helpful. But really, just having general talks about autism can make a big difference.
- [38:15]
A
I think that is perfect advice, especially having been at that elementary level and talking to classes. That scenario you laid out is exactly right. You talk about it in general, and, you know, a child's like, hey, you know, that's me. You know, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you're talking about this.
- [38:34]
So thank you. That's really, really good and helpful. And when you're. When you're talking to kids, what are some key messages to include to explain autism? Maybe to younger kids. And. And you've probably kind of talked about this just when we talked about talking to children about their autism when they're young. But what about in a classroom?
- [38:59]
B
So usually I talk about things that are clearly different. So we talk about stimming a lot when we're having conversations, because these kids may be flapping or doing things that are clearly different. I usually would probably tailor it a little bit to the classroom and the kids that are being targeted or the kids that I'm trying to protect by having these conversations. But a lot of times that is stimming or sensory overload. Or we do talk about fight or flight responses because a lot of times it's the autistic kids who are having the big fight response. And so we talk about, how would you feel if a bear walked into this room right now? Well, sometimes that feeling happens when there isn't a bear, but our body thinks that there's a bear. And so if you thought, if there really was a bear, would you throw your shoe at it? Would you topple your desk over? Would you try to run away and hide? You know, like, what reaction would you have? Now here's a. You know this. Sometimes autistic kids maybe have that response because there was a loud sound and it was unexpected, or because they really wanted to finish this worksheet or activity that we were doing. And then it was interrupted to leave to go to PE and they hate pe so there's this bear and they're gonna have these big reactions, you know, and so just kind of talking about it in a way that's a little bit relatable. And like, that's what their body did. They didn't have any power over that. We need to help them get regulated when this happens. And regulated is when your body feels happy and calm and ready to learn. And maybe it's. It's enjoying fun things that you like. And when you're not regulated, you can't.
- [40:42]
C
Do the things that you like.
- [40:44]
B
And everything is really hard. So just kind of like explaining it in a way that kids can kind of understand and also helps them accept. When people have outbursts or they're stimming and it looks strange or, you know, whatever it is that's happening in the classroom, I think giving kids a way to relate to that and really even just understanding, like the nervous system, but in a kid friendly way can be really big. And so like when my kid comes home and talks about the kids are dysregulated at school, I'm like, wow. It sounded like they really needed some support. I hope they got that, you know, rather than they're so bad, I can't believe they threw the desk, you know, or whatever they did. Kind of wording it more as in like empathy.
- [41:31]
C
Right.
- [41:31]
B
But also support for the child rather than like villainizing the child.
- [41:36]
A
Yes. And I think those kind of fight flight outbursts are kind of the hardest thing when you're in a classroom. Because I always would think this, kids come to kindergarten and their parents have said, don't do this, don't do that, you know, like, raise your hand, don't talk out of turn. And so all these little new kindergartners are sitting there, like, trying to do their very best to do act appropriately, like their parents say, and the neurotypical kids. And then our kid comes in and defies all those rules the parents just put in their head. So of course they're, they look like, whoa, breaking, you know, breaking the rules. And I think the way that you just described it with the bear, I've never heard it described in that manner. But, but I can see with young kids, even at the preschool level, how that could be so helpful. And imagine if a child had some kind of outburst, pushed a table over.
- [42:40]
Had a meltdown, if the first thing the other kids thought was, oh my gosh, this must be a bear moment, and bringing that empathy. Like, how would I feel if I was that scared by, like, it was a bear? But it's, you know, one of the other kind of triggers for them for sure.
- [42:57]
B
And then I say, like, what if you were running? What if there was a bear in this classroom and you were really worried about getting out of the classroom or protecting your body and keeping you safe and alive, and the teacher is saying, what color is this? What's two plus two? Like, are you going to be at all about, are you trying to get away from the bear? You know, And I think validating other kids feelings like that can be really scary for you. Right. Because if with some. If there's a kid who's really reacting to their bear and then there's a kid who's knocking things over, that could be really scary. And that's validating too. Right. Like, your feelings are still valid. I understand that's disruptive. It's hard for you to learn when that happens. And here's things that you can do. You know, you can move away, you can go in here, you can ask for a break, you know, whatever it is. And usually if the, if a child is so dysregulated that they're tumping things over. They're probably going to either clear the room or clear the kid from the, you know, move the kid from the room if they can. So it's not going to be like it's going to an all day thing where the other kids are scared, but you're scared, you know what to do. We do this, you know, so that they, to kind of take away from that fear. But I think having that empathy and understanding that why the other child is doing that can be huge and not necessarily like it's a choice, you know.
- [44:19]
A
Exactly. Yeah. And that's exactly what I was thinking when you were describing that. Like, what if after teaching this and talking about it, kids first reaction was one of empathy and like feeling, oh gosh, that would not be fun to be scared like that. You know, instead of naughty in their head, they're thinking they're scared and you know, the whole bear scenario. And I, you know, been in young classrooms, kindergarten, first grade, long enough to know like they're sponges for what you teach. And especially they at that age love to absorb and, and really follow through with what you talk about. And hence when there is a substitute teacher in their classroom, they're all like, no, no, no, that's not how we do it. Like they, they really take in what you are telling them. So thank you. I love that. I think people will be able to take that and put that into action with, in the way that you described it. Now related to that, you have some amazing resources for talking to a child about their autism and talking to peers about autism. So can you tell us what you have available?
- [45:32]
B
Yeah. So for talking to your kids, I feel like a lot of people, like we kind of talked about earlier, there's a lot of parent stress and anxiety about having the conversation with will I do it right? You know, and I will be the first person to say there's probably not really a wrong way to do it and if you don't do it the best way you can fix it. But I also know it is so helpful for my anxiety if I have support right off the bat to help me go through this. And so I have, it's called understanding autism together. And I do have, there's a, a therapist version where you can share it with your families and then a parent version. So they're basically the same thing just with different licenses. Like the parent doesn't share it with other people. And it, what it is, is it's, it has a whole section on, like, parent feelings, processing, getting you ready and hyped up for the conversation. But then my favorite part is I have some stories for about autistic kids who talk about autism and then reveal to the reader that they're autistic also. So that it kind of takes that pressure off the parents, and they're not having to say it. They don't even have to structure it. We just sit down and we read the story. And there's stories for different ages. And so the earliest one, I think he's 4 years old, and it's just a simple story. And then as we get older, it's.
- [46:56]
C
Like comics, and they're all illustrated and they have diverse characters. I love it. I'm totally obsessed with it.
- [47:03]
A
Oh, my God.
- [47:05]
B
And kind of like you could. It can grow with your child, so you can read the stories as they get older. You can pick and choose which story you want to read, but I love those. And then if you're ready to really do a deep dive with your child. I say this for probably 7 or 8 years old and up.
- [47:22]
C
I have the Autism Handbook for Kids. And it goes over everything. It goes over by the. It goes over autism characteristics. It goes over ableism. I mean, like, it covers all the topics that kids might need to know when it comes to autism. And that was probably my favorite product that I have out of all of them. And then I do have one for just talking about autism in the classroom, and that's for older kids as well. I really do need to make one for, like, younger kids, but I do like that one. It's kind of like worksheets and has a lot of critical thinking questions that I think can really get the ball rolling to help kids be empathetic and supportive and accepting of people who are different.
- [48:08]
A
Those sound incredible. And I know a lot of people listening are going to be like, where do I get my hands on that? So. Because I have both parents and educators that listen to the podcast, and they're. I'll tell you when they find a good resource like. Like those. They. They're like, where can I get this? So I'll be sure to put the link in the show notes, too.
- [48:34]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:36]
A
I'm so excited. Okay, so let everyone know, Andy, where they can find you and your resources.
- [48:42]
B
Yes. So I am on Facebook and Instagram for Mrs. Speechy P. And that's where I feel like that I share. I don't gatekeep any information to products, but if you want them, like, really wrapped up in a bow and pretty.
- [48:57]
C
And easy to find.
- [48:58]
B
That's where those are.
- [48:59]
C
But I share tons of information.
- [49:02]
On both of those platforms and then my website is just Mrs. Bgp.com and those are the main ones. Yeah, I don't branch out a lot. I, I keep really busy between and.
- [49:19]
B
Just kind of like advocating for disabled people, advocating for autism, speaking about autism.
- [49:26]
Definitely a special interest.
- [49:30]
C
But yeah, that's where I am.
- [49:32]
A
Well, so many people are benefiting from that special interest. So thank you so much for what you do and the value that you bring to everybody in the community. And it was such a thrill to get to talk to you today.
- [49:46]
C
Yeah, thank you Andy.
- [49:50]
A
I'm sending a big virtual hug your way because you just finished another episode of the Autism Little Learners podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating and review. If you have had success with any of the strategies that you learned about in this podcast, I would love to hear from you. Send me a DM on Instagram or Facebook. Autismlittlelearners don't forget to grab your free visual support starter set by going to autismlittlelearners.com visuals and always remember to find the good in every day.
- [50:35]
C
Sam.